March 18, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, Tom Caravela welcomes special guest Trish Gorecki to share her insights and experiences as a Medical Science Liaison (MSL). The conversation delves into overcoming challenges and frustrations in the MSL role, emphasizing the importance of mentorship and networking. Trish discusses coping strategies for isolation, handling setbacks, and improving Key Opinion Leader (KOL) engagement. The episode provides a comprehensive look at burnout, work-life balance, and effective time management, especially during travel. Trish highlights essential resources and tools for MSLs, stressing the significance of continuous personal and professional development. The episode concludes with final advice for both current and aspiring MSLs.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
I have a very special guest, Trish Gorecki.
Trish and I actually met at a couple ofdifferent conferences over the course of, like,
the past two years.
So this is one of those situations where wekinda had this idea of doing something we
weren't sure, and then just an amazing topichad come up, that I think a lot of you guys are
(00:26):
gonna love.
And we're gonna talk about how it can be lonelyin the field as an MSL, and Trish is the
perfect person to talk about this.
Before we get into that, I just want tointroduce our sponsor for today.
So this episode is actually brought to us byFierce Pharma Engage.
It's that time to sign up for what used to beMass West is now Fierce Pharma Engage.
(00:53):
It's in San Diego, April 29 to May 1.
It's a premier event that brings together crossfunctional teams from marketing, PR, and
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There's a medical affairs segment and thenbusiness development and licensing.
So this is a different event.
(01:15):
It's like one powerful umbrella from FiercePharma and Fierce Biotech, to combine all of
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And then medical affairs sits with inside ofit.
So this should be awesome.
For more information, just type in fiercePharma Engage twenty twenty five.
(01:40):
You can get more details, and I hope to see youthere.
I will definitely be there as well.
So, Trish, let's well, first of all, welcome,Trish.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me.
Such a pleasure, honestly.
I love the little intro you gave because it'strue.
We literally met at a couple of meetings, had alittle bit of a chat, and thought this could
(02:01):
be, like, a really cool topic that mightresonate with a lot of listeners.
Oh, definitely.
And, and you're the perfect person to talkabout this because you were an MSL, and then
you've played a number of different roleswithin medical affairs.
But, like, take me back.
What did you love about being an MSL?
Let's start with let's start with the funstuff, the good stuff.
(02:26):
What I really loved was being that outside,person, the the collision facing person at the
end of the day.
I think I really, personally, I really loveengaging with people as you might have noticed.
And I I just love being there sitting next tosome brilliant KOLs.
(02:48):
Honestly, some of these minds are justphenomenal, and you just sit there and have
conversations that really matter.
So and these are, I think, the moments when Ithink all of us can relate to when you have
these interactions.
That's when you're like, oh, yeah.
I had a really good job, and I really made adifference.
So everything to do with KOLs and seeing howyou can drive a difference, that was probably
(03:11):
my favorite part.
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
And I I, you know, I hear that a lot.
I I have said this many times.
I think the MSL job is one of the best jobs inthe world, but it does not come without a
certain level of frustration.
Just like any job, really.
So when you think back, what were some of thethings that were frustrating to you as an MSL?
(03:37):
I think you know what?
I'm one of the things was actually getting tothose moments that I just described.
So being able to sit next to that clinician ornurse specialist or whoever it might be.
Because I think especially when you're maybenew and there are there are different
(03:58):
situations, but let's say you're actuallybuilding a new MSL team and maybe it's a
therapy area that the company hasn't reallyworked in before, you need to first establish
those connections.
It's great when you know the people, whensomeone can introduce you to the people, and
then it's relatively easy.
Not saying it is, but relatively easy topotentially get that appointment.
(04:18):
But when you're new and you need to actuallywrite these emails and maybe people don't get
back to you.
You think, oh, how can I actually make animpact?
How can I change something?
Because I truly feel that, actually, a lot oftimes, you need to give it a shot, and then you
see what the value is.
Right?
We often said different, medicines.
(04:42):
You say, okay.
Just just try it on one patient, especiallywhen you know that it's really, really good
meaningful new option for patients.
You just say to these clinicians, just give itgive it a shot.
See how it works on one patient.
And sometimes they get back to you and you say,oh, it's it was really amazing.
Thank you for making me try this.
Now I know how I can how I can use this drug.
(05:03):
And it's sometimes the same with an MSL.
Right?
People sometimes just think, oh, this thiscompany person contacts me.
I'm not quite sure what they want from me.
Maybe they still see you as a sales rep.
They don't really understand the difference.
And then you just think to yourself, just giveme a shot.
Just let me sit next to you, have thatconversation with you so that I can show you
(05:24):
how I can help.
Right?
So it's this kind of, you know you can make adifference, but having that opportunity to show
people that.
And then so in I I wanna stay on this for asecond.
In that scenario, what would you advise peopledo?
Do they seek out a mentor?
Do they go to their supervisor?
Do they ask a teammate?
(05:45):
What would you advise somebody do in that typeof situation?
I so first of all, I think a couple of maybedifferent options.
So one thing is just because someone doesn'tget back to you, don't give up.
Like, you know Right.
It's basically
They don't hate you.
(06:05):
Exactly.
They don't hate you.
They just don't know you.
Maybe they're just super hyper skeptical of ofindustry, and they don't want anything to do
with it.
Don't take it personally.
Right?
If they don't want, there'll be someone elsewho would glad who will gladly meet with you.
So Mhmm.
You know, just finding the right people.
You know?
It's just like finding your crowd that you canactually work with and connect with.
(06:27):
So maybe that's one thing.
Don't give up.
The other thing is maybe do speak to, you know,whether it's your line manager, whether it's
your team, whether it's even, like, your salescolleagues that maybe work in the same
territory.
Because sometimes they know people who knowpeople, especially when it's one of these
people that you or k o l's that you really feelyou need to meet because they're this big voice
(06:50):
in in the space that you're working in.
Try to make it happen somehow.
Right?
Don't just wait for the email to come back toyou.
Maybe through people or through going to aconference, you have that opportunity to just
go and introduce yourself in person.
Right?
So try and find ways to how you could stillmake that connection if if you feel it's so
desperately needed.
(07:11):
Mhmm.
And because you've mentioned mentoring, Iactually really like that because maybe not
just in that scenario, but I think mentoring,irrespective of what you do, is super useful.
Right?
You you always get this different perspective.
You might feel a little bit stuck in the rolethat you're doing or in the situation that
(07:34):
you're currently in.
And that that mentor can just give you that,hey.
Have you looked at it this way?
Or have you thought about it a different way?
Or why don't you approach it this way?
So I think even in those situations where youfeel you might get stuck, there's nothing wrong
of reaching out to a mentor because maybe Imean, it sounds maybe super simple, but maybe
(07:54):
there's something you could write in that inthat email introduction that might be just a
little bit different.
We can maybe, you know, create that hook that,you know, when someone reads it, so when the
clinician reads it, they'll be like, actually,this sounds interesting.
Maybe I will get back to that person.
So even in that situation, a mentor might bereally useful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(08:14):
And, you know, this just reminds you brings meback.
So I was in in the field for ten years before Ibecame a recruiter and a podcaster and the
stuff I'm doing now.
And I just remember, like, you would get out oftraining or you'd get out of the POA, and you
would it would you would feel so good because,like, there was all these rah rah moments, and
(08:34):
you were all excited about the company, and yougot energy from all of the leaders at the
company.
And then you're out in the field, and then youget hit with, like, rejection, like we're
talking about now, or you're having somestruggles, or you're trying to get access,
you're trying to get those meetings, and youkinda feel detached a little bit.
You feel like you're on an island, sorta.
(08:56):
And that's why, like, I this idea of, like,it's lonely in the field as an MSL, it's the
same.
Like, when you're field based or virtual,sometimes you just feel detached.
Can you talk a little bit about your experiencewith that?
Absolutely.
And, I I think there are days and days.
We all had those days.
(09:18):
I think sometimes it all comes together.
Right?
You you kind of trying to make connections.
You try to meet new people.
You try to do your job.
You don't hear anything back, and then you feela little bit detached because you don't sit in
the in the office.
You don't go in every day or every other day.
You don't have those in person team meetings.
Yeah.
You do feel a little bit like floating.
(09:38):
Right?
You're thinking like, what's what am I doing?
Am I missing something?
Am I doing the right thing?
I think especially in the beginning, Isometimes had days like that.
So I came from a clinical job being a clinicianby background.
And it was just yeah.
Sometimes you felt, am I doing the right thing?
Am I missing something?
(09:59):
So I think we all had those days.
So first of all, think it's normal.
Don't over overthink it, over panic.
And maybe I think what I in hindsight, what Iwould also say is, as as if anything, it comes
and goes in waves.
Right?
So you might have maybe a slow few days.
(10:20):
Maybe you feel a bit like, you're not surewhether you're making that in difference, but
then it'll come.
You know?
When you're doing the right thing, when you'reputting the motivation in, you will get to that
point where it'll pay off again.
You know?
And it sounds gonna be easier than it sometimesfeels, but I I I I'm I'm a true believer when
you put the effort in and you think it throughand you have the right strategy, I'm sure it'll
(10:45):
look it'll come back to you in a in a good way.
And yeah.
Pretty much.
Yeah.
Now you're dealing
with that.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
I May can I just say one thing as well?
And I think what sometimes helped me as wellwas just to think, how does it actually
connect.
You know, when you feel that you're on thisisland and you're not quite sure whether you're
(11:08):
making impact, maybe just even ask thatquestion.
You know, I know that in an ideal practicesetting, you are in the field.
You know exactly what why you're doing whatyou're doing, and you know exactly how those
insights that you're gathering connect to thestrategy and how it then translates into
tactics.
You know?
And I know that it's not always as easy asthat.
(11:31):
But but some people, maybe they just need thatadditional motivation of, okay, how do I how
does my piece of the puzzle fit into thatbigger picture?
Just just ask that question.
Have that conversation with your line manageror with some head office colleagues and just
say, hey, you know, we've been working on thisand we got all these insights.
(11:53):
Like, how are they driving actually what whatwhat we want to do next year?
You know?
So maybe it's also this actually seeing howwhat you do translates, and I think that will
automatically then should give us a boost aswell to continue what we're doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
I totally agree.
And I like what you said about, you know, kindagive yourself a little bit of grace and give
(12:14):
yourself a a little bit of a break.
I had someone say to me one time, one of thegreatest lessons I learned is that you you may
not get two good days in a row when you're inthe field.
You just might not because, like you said, itebbs and flows.
You're gonna have some good days and you'regonna have some bad days.
You're gonna have some really exciting momentsand then you're gonna have some moments of
(12:36):
frustration or some moments where it's just notit didn't go as well as you had planned.
We all have the same idea, like, every day isgonna be perfect, and it that that doesn't
always happen.
And then the other thing I remember is it'simportant to have a really strong internal
network.
And I I befriended a lot of people that weremore senior than I was so that when there were
(13:00):
those days where I kinda felt like I wasbanging my head against the wall or I I reached
some type of let's call it, a setback or afrustration, I had somebody that I could call
and say, hey.
How did you handle this?
Or what advice do you have for me?
And it's gotta be the right person becausethere's a misery loves company kind of thing.
If you contact the wrong people, they're justgonna bring you down.
(13:22):
You don't want anybody draining your bucket.
You want people filling it.
So I stayed away from those people.
You know what I mean?
You know what I'm talking about?
Totally.
Oh, totally.
It's like I didn't call you for you to make mefeel worse.
Right?
I know.
That's how I love it.
I have to laugh because that is so true.
It just sometimes takes time to identify thosepeople.
(13:43):
Right.
Yeah.
And every once in a while, it's good to have agood bitch session, but, like, that's that's
not gonna get you anywhere.
You know?
Yeah.
%.
When you think back, were there challenges orthings that you weren't expecting?
Maybe setbacks or challenges or things that youjust weren't prepared for or maybe you just
(14:06):
didn't didn't, you know, expect to happen?
Good point.
Yes.
I mean, I think in the beginning, especiallywhen you when it's your first job in industry,
everything's a little bit like an experience.
Right?
You you kind of you're trying to figure out howit all links up and and connects with one
another.
(14:27):
What I found sometimes, yeah, interesting and alittle bit challenging is let's say, you know,
your group of MSLs, you keep hearing the samefeedback or insights.
You know?
You kinda feed these back to the head officeteam.
And then maybe sometimes months later, at somerandom meeting, someone from the head office
(14:49):
team says, oh, you know what?
Oh, I wish we had known about that.
You know?
And you just think to yourself, well, we'vebeen telling you for months.
So you sometimes feel like, do you actuallylisten to what we have to say?
Like, we sit in the field and we're there for areason.
Just just trust us and our feedback.
So sometimes it's just kind of like, have youhave you paid attention?
(15:13):
I think another frustration sometimes was and,of course, everything depends on, like,
business strategy and so on.
I completely understand that.
But when you're in a Masell and let's say youmake this connection of a clinician, nurse
specialist, whoever, health care professional,and they come to you with this great idea of a
project.
And you think, this is so amazing.
(15:35):
It's meaningful.
It fits with strategy.
It it could really establish an amazingrelationship for us.
And then there's this hesitancy on the inside.
Right?
You you kind of so passionate about thisproject, and you bring it to the people on the
inside to evaluate.
And then there's no you you don't get thatexcitement back that you were hoping for, and
it's just a little bit like, oh, not surewhether we should do that, not sure whether we
(15:58):
can change the budget to make sure thishappens.
And then you think, guys, but just just listento the name.
Like, this is someone you want to work with,and they're coming to us with an idea.
So you have these moments as well when youthink, like, am I in the right movie?
Yeah.
And how how far do you take that?
Like, obviously, you need to know your place.
But if you feel really passionate aboutsomething and you wanna advocate for yourself,
(16:22):
like, do you keep do you keep asking?
Like, I'm curious.
To be honest, in my experience so far, when Igave the right rationale for the right project
and gave, like, the whole story, I mean, no onereally said no.
Right?
I mean, there might be initial hesitancy tosay, oh, is this the right time?
(16:44):
Not quite sure.
And maybe the internal approval takes a littlebit of time, but there will always be at least
a couple of people that actually hear you andjust then will support to see it through.
You know?
So I thankfully, I haven't had a situation yetwhere there was something super passionate
super amazing that I was passionate about whatpeople just said.
(17:05):
No.
We really don't have the money for that.
It it just always somehow happened.
And maybe this is where, you know, when you'repassionate and you know it's the right thing,
for whatever reason, for patient reasons,whatever else, usually, you know, common sense
prevails.
Right?
And Right.
Then it works out.
Yeah.
Let's talk about KOL access since it's it'ssuch a big issue now.
(17:28):
But got you know, going back, would you say isthere a perceived notion that access is easier
than it actually is?
And can you recall when you got out in thefield, were you like, wow.
This is way harder than I thought.
How what was your experience like?
(17:48):
I fully agree.
I mean, I think in the beginning, I didn'treally, % know what I was getting myself into.
I like the fact that it was this externallyfacing position
Mhmm.
That kind of still connected me to my oldclinical world in a way.
So it felt like a little bit at home becauseyou're talking with, with clinicians, etcetera.
(18:10):
So that was nice, but I definitely didn't knowwhat I was, you know, what I should be
expecting, to be honest.
And, absolutely, I think sometimes when people,you know, people say, oh, yeah.
It's it's easy.
You just write an email, and then you do yourjob.
Like, it's it's quite a cushy thing.
I was told at one point as well from someonewho's not in industry, you're like, no.
(18:35):
Actually, it can be really tough.
Like, it's not that easy.
Just write an email, and here you go.
Everything's amazing.
So absolutely.
And I think what I found interesting issometimes it actually coincided a little bit
with the life cycle of the product that youwere in, I felt, as well.
So let's say you're working on a product thatis, you know, either in prelaunch phase or just
(19:02):
about launch phase, sometimes clinicians felt alittle bit more open as well.
Right?
They were like, oh, this is this new thing.
Yeah.
I want to speak to someone with the companybecause maybe they can tell me all about that.
You know?
So it felt like an easier sell.
Mhmm.
Whereas when it's a product that has been onthe in the, you know, in the market for for a
while, clinicians know about it, and maybethere are already newer kids on the block.
(19:25):
They're a bit cooler.
Right?
Then I think it's sometimes a bit moredifficult to get that traction and get that
first move in and first first opportunity tomeet that person.
So I think it depended a little bit of that.
And the reason I say that is because when Istarted in immunology, we will work I was
working on diff on two different drugs, andthey were at different life cycles in different
(19:49):
the therapy areas within immunology.
So you could see that you could see andcontrast between even different specialties.
And I could tell you that, you know, this, youknow, gastroenterologist, let's say, they were
like, yeah.
Cool.
Definitely.
Let's meet.
I really wanna hear more about it.
And then maybe rheumatologists were like, oh,well, but hesitant to get back to you, you
(20:10):
know, just as an example.
So don't be surprised because I think there areall kinds of things that could influence
clinicians as well to reply or not reply toyou.
Yeah.
And it's like anything else.
I I think that you you develop you get betterat it as you go.
And even in difficult markets like now, you youstart to figure on you you figure out what
(20:33):
works Yeah.
And you see you know, again, you look atexamples from others, and there's, you know,
internal trainings, and there's there's a lotof different ways or social listening.
There's all these different other thingsavailable that can can help you with the
knowledge that you might need about your KOLs.
(20:54):
It might take a little bit longer, and it mighttake extra digging, and there might be a lot
more research involved now.
But with AI and some of the other technologies,I think it's just a matter of, like, really
having patience, and realizing that it's not aneasy thing and that you're not the only one
that's struggling with it, and then you'll getbetter at it.
(21:15):
Absolutely.
And you know what?
There's one thing you mentioned about theinsights and the AI.
I truly feel that when you find that sweet spotof how you can add value, people won't reject
you.
Mhmm.
Right?
So and I think it's knowing that person thatyou're writing to as well.
So are they really into their research?
(21:37):
Are they, like, super, you know, this big KOL?
Or are they more, I don't know, superpassionate about, patient access programs or
something?
So know what they want to talk about.
Right?
Because when you, write that scientific KOL andemail and you ask them about patient access,
(21:57):
just making it up, you know, they might not getback to you because they think, well, it's
nothing to like, I'm not interested in that.
But I think with all the opportunities that wenow have with the, social listening and and
really understanding the KOL better or, like,you know, your KOL is better, you can tailor
your message.
And I think that's the thing.
Right?
Don't just, like, copy paste and send the samething to everyone.
(22:19):
But just, like, tailor a little bit and make ita little bit more personal.
And I think then as well that could be anotherway to kind of gain a bit of traction in the
beginning.
Yeah.
And this and I think you'll notice too that youyou start to stack wins.
When you see that one thing works well, youstart to do more of it, and then you just kinda
stack the wins, and then you get a lot betterat it.
(22:41):
So with time, you learn how to overcome some ofthose frustrations and and kind of predict or
develop your own success and stack your ownwins so that it's the frustrations are
minimized.
But let's let's talk about I don't wanna makethis you know, this is about, you know, the
(23:06):
overcoming the challenges of of being fieldbased and being kinda lonely in the field.
I don't wanna make it too gloomy and doomy, buta lot of this, I think, is helpful.
So let's talk about the, and this isn't aboutburnout per se this episode, but let's
incorporate that word into the conversation.
(23:27):
You know, a lot of times people are out thereand there's there's, you know, there's the
frustrations that we're talking about.
Then there's travel, and there's there's a lotof, you know, extensive travel and travel
issues.
And, so can you talk a little bit about whatyou've seen, not just from your own journey,
but from other MSLs that may have have gonedown a path of, like, man, I'm just getting
(23:51):
burnt out doing this job.
And what would you what advice would you givefor those people?
Great point.
Great point.
Because, at the end of the day, there's alwaysmore than we could do.
Right?
So you put a lot of pressure on yourself.
You want to make it perfect.
So very easy to to go down that route, really.
(24:11):
So what what helped me a little I think it'ssometimes going back to what I said with giving
yourself a break Mhmm.
Literally meaning that.
You know, sometimes, you know, what makes senseis, I guess, you know, when you know you're
going to city a for on a on a Wednesday andyou're staying Thursday, a, maybe try and see
(24:34):
whether you can combine your travel.
Maybe there's, like, an they bring in the firsttee and you know someone there already.
So rather than traveling back and forth I mean,this is maybe giving super simple a super
simple example, but just try and, plan yourtrip.
Like, any holiday that you really really do andyou want to kind of organize itself, do the
same thing.
(24:54):
Like, maybe there are a couple of other thingsor people you could meet while you're in in
that one place.
But then so when I was in situations where Idid stay overnight because I had, you know, a
couple of meetings in the same region, I wouldjust take the time to maybe, let's say, walk
through the city center.
So, you know, rather than jumping on a cab andgoing straight to the hotel and then working
(25:19):
until midnight, I would say, you know what?
I'll actually walk it.
I'll walk, then you can see the a little bit ofthis, you know, of the place that you've
visited, and, maybe go and and rather thanhaving just a takeout in a hotel, actually go
sit down outside and just give yourself thatmental break.
Because I think it's super easy for you to feellike you're traveling and dependent whether
(25:41):
you're let's say you're driving.
You don't really feel that you do much.
Right?
Because you sit in the car and you might bedriving for five hours or four hours, whatever.
But it feels like you haven't done your job.
Mhmm.
So it's super and get to point to to where youhave to go and then just work for the rest of
the evening.
Right?
Because you feel you actually haven't doneanything today.
(26:01):
But actually changing that mindset andthinking, no.
Actually, driving four, five hours is part ofmy job.
I don't need to necessarily make up for it andwork until midnight.
I can just say, okay.
I'll do the emails.
I have to do a prep for the meeting the way Ihave to prep, but then give yourself that
downtime that you would when you're in a headoffice role.
(26:23):
You go home and maybe you cook dinner and spendtime with your kids or with your dog so you
have that downtime.
So see it in the same way.
Like, even when you're traveling and you're outsomewhere else, give yourself that downtime.
And that helped me a lot.
Yeah.
And I think back, it's like you get in agroove.
Like, what's your groove?
Like, what's your routine?
(26:44):
So if you have a four or five hour drive, howdoes that go?
What are you bringing with you as far as snacksand drinks?
And Yep.
Is there a favorite coffee shop that you knowis on the way that you could stop at that you
can look forward to and say, okay.
Halfway, I'm gonna stop at this coffee shop orat this deli or whatever and and kinda treat
yourself and, you know, make it a little bitmore of an adventure.
(27:07):
Like, is are there people that are there phonecalls you can get out of the way?
There always is.
It's a four hour drive, five hour drive.
Let's get some phone calls out out of the way.
Maybe you wanna listen to a podcast.
I know a really good podcast that you canlisten to.
So maybe maybe you line up a couple of ofpodcast episodes and say, I'm gonna catch up on
(27:28):
some of this stuff.
And it becomes, you know, more of, like, a, youknow, professional development kind of
situation.
So you gotta give yourself stuff to lookforward to.
I think that's what helped me.
A %.
I love that looking forward to somethingbecause totally and you know what?
I fully agree.
And also, just take it as it is.
(27:51):
Because sometimes, let's say you're goingsomewhere and you're super prepared and you do
all the things that you just suggested, listento podcast, do everything.
Maybe on the way back when it's a Fridayafternoon, you really don't feel like it, and
you just want to listen to some music or listento nothing.
Yeah.
And give yourself that break.
Don't feel that now because I'm in the car, Ihave to do 20,000 things.
(28:12):
Right?
Maybe one day you're motivated and you reallywant to, and then maybe on another day you
don't feel like it.
So don't pressure yourself that you have to do20,000 things.
Yeah.
So fun fact.
So when I do a solo podcast or if I have, atalk that I have to do or if I'm speaking
somewhere, I turn I look forward to the timesthat I'm in the car and or working out, and I
(28:39):
turn everything off.
And I practice and I practice and I practice.
And sometimes I practice out loud.
Sometimes I practice in my own head dependingon where I am.
But that alone time and that unplugging on thatdrive or on that treadmill or whatever it is is
so valuable.
And it's it really does help out because nowyou're so much more comfortable when it's time
(29:03):
for you to go present because you've alreadyvisualized it and you've done it 20 times.
I see.
Yeah.
And sometimes best ideas come when you actuallygive yourself that downtime.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
So as we're talking about, like, podcast andand some of these these tips, like, are there
any other resources that you can recommend,like, you know, books or things that people
(29:26):
should be reading or filling their mind with?
Sure.
Of course, this podcast, right, has to be,like, number one.
I don't wanna have to say it.
I don't wanna have to say it.
I think I mean, there are a number of things Iwould suggest, really.
So on the one hand, we mentioned mentorsearlier.
(29:47):
So think about maybe connecting with peopleregularly, you know, and and getting, like,
that outside different perspective.
So mentoring is, I think, a really valuabletool.
Then depending on on what you crave as well,there are all these medical affairs societies,
right, like MAPS and and other things.
(30:09):
I think sometimes that might be quite usefulbecause, a, there are resources for field
teams, but also, it gives you maybe a littlebit more of an insight into, like, the, in
house strategic planning or anything like that.
So I I what I'm trying to say is mayberesources that don't just solely focus on how
(30:30):
to be the best MSL, that's fantastic, ofcourse.
But then how does that link with the with thestrategy and the the, you know, in house things
that happen as well behind the scenes?
So maybe understanding that, especially whenyou're maybe a new MSL and you feel like, oh,
how how does that fit in?
How do I how can I make a difference?
Actually, understanding a little bit how thestrategic side of things work, and, you know,
(30:56):
that that might that might be useful as well.
And then, yeah, there are there are actually somany books.
I mean, I love going to a bookstore, butsometimes I'm overwhelmed because there are all
these options.
But I had a really great recommendation from,actually, one of my mentors, and he suggested a
book, called Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed.
(31:18):
Mhmm.
And that really talks about diverse thinkingand diverse perspectives.
And that's something that really resonated.
Right?
Because a lot of times people say, oh, youknow, I resonate with someone.
We kind of have we're thinking the same way.
We're thinking alike.
(31:38):
So it's easy to partner, but actually thatchallenges you to say, well, maybe you actually
need these people that think differently sothat you get a different perspective.
And maybe that's actually a better team thatyou can inform because you get different
perspectives and you don't just looking at itat well, from one direction.
Right?
So, that book talks a little bit about that.
(31:59):
So that was a really great recommendation.
I I think that it's such a good time now versuswhen when at least when I was out in the field.
I mean, I'm I'm a hundred years old.
So, like, you're going back a long time forwhen I was out in the field, but now there's,
like, you know, they didn't have podcasts backthen.
(32:20):
They had, like, books on tape or, like, youknow, but now there's there's obviously, there
there's podcast, there's social media, there'sx, there's LinkedIn, there's masterminds and
coaching programs.
And like you said, like, MAPS is coming up inin February.
MAPS is just such a great organization.
(32:43):
It just like, I think being out in the field,you wanna be you wanna feel empowered, and you
wanna feel like there are resources availableto you, but you have to take the ownership of
that personal and professional development.
That has to that rely that has to come fromyou.
Your company is gonna provide training, but youhave to take responsibility.
(33:06):
One of the so we have a coaching and trainingprogram called through MSL mastery.
We have a cohort for new MSLs called RISE.
And I mentioned it because the peep the newerMSLs that are in RISE, they get to see what
others are experiencing and learn from othersand get coached by experts at the same time.
(33:27):
It's empowering.
It's resourceful.
It just brings people to a whole another level.
That's why we call the program RISE.
So and I'm not saying everybody has to joinRISE if you're a new MSL.
What I'm saying is there there's free programsout there.
There's there's all sorts of resources, but youhave to be the person that takes control of
(33:48):
your professional development.
You can't wait for somebody else to do it.
A %.
Fully agree.
And like you say, I think maybe sometimes thesedays, there's so many options.
So you wonder where do I start?
But at the same time, no excuse.
Absolutely.
Like, there's you know, it's in your hands toreally understand something that maybe you
(34:09):
don't feel that comfortable with.
Right?
It might be maybe you don't quite understand, Idon't know, something about the business
planning aspect.
Well, go and read about it or ask someone fromthe MAPS team or ask your mentor.
Right?
Or how you can develop when it also comes tocareer opportunities, etcetera.
There's all these resources.
So just take the time and find what what you'relooking for to kind of, yeah Yeah.
(34:34):
Help you.
Absolutely.
So what final piece of advice, what would youtell MSLs or even aspiring MSLs, people that
are that are hoping to get into the MSL role,let's say, this year.
What advice would you have in general for thosefolks?
Enjoy it.
(34:55):
I mean, it's it's really it's an amazing, jobopportunities.
It's an amazing role.
You meet so many truly fascinating people thatreally are so passionate about making, an
impact and difference, in patients' lives thatreally love it.
They're just like, you know, health careprofessionals by heart, and it's just so
(35:18):
aspiring and, amazing to to meet these people.
So it's a genuinely, genuinely fun job, soenjoy it.
Enjoy that you're actually that person thatgets to meet all these people, because there
are other roles within industry that do not getto trouble.
And I had actually even a conversation recentlywith someone from our compliance team, and she
(35:42):
was like, oh, yeah.
Actually, I wish I could travel a little bitmore.
And because even for them, you know, theysometimes say we could actually see how things
come together when we kind of advise on things.
So there are people that maybe I don't wannasay envy, but maybe, could be a little bit
envious because they just sit in an office anddon't go anywhere as such.
You actually have the luxury that you cansometimes travel.
(36:04):
And like we said before, explore new places,give yourself a little break, see where you're
going, meeting new places.
So it's a very it's a very, fulfilling, variedjob, and I think that is really that's I would
just say enjoy.
And at the same time, don't be fooled to thinkthat you just because we're now in a virtual
(36:27):
world, that you just sit there, write emails,and that's it.
So it's not something that you're not an admin.
Right?
So if you were looking for an admin job, it'snot it's not the right thing to do.
Great advice.
Awesome.
Best job in the world.
Best job
in the world.
Yeah.
Trish, you're the best.
Thank you so much.
(36:47):
Too.
Let's I'm I'm so glad that we had a chance todo this.
Let's keep in touch.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been a real pleasure.
Thank you.
Awesome.
And thank you guys for watching and listeningand sharing this show.
Appreciate you all.
Love you guys.
And, I'll see you on the next episode.
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
I have a very special guest, Trish Gorecki.
Trish and I actually met at a couple ofdifferent conferences over the course of, like,
the past two years.
So this is one of those situations where wekinda had this idea of doing something we
weren't sure, and then just an amazing topichad come up, that I think a lot of you guys are
(00:26):
gonna love.
And we're gonna talk about how it can be lonelyin the field as an MSL, and Trish is the
perfect person to talk about this.
Before we get into that, I just want tointroduce our sponsor for today.
So this episode is actually brought to us byFierce Pharma Engage.
It's that time to sign up for what used to beMass West is now Fierce Pharma Engage.
(00:53):
It's in San Diego, April 29 to May 1.
It's a premier event that brings together crossfunctional teams from marketing, PR, and
communications.
There's a medical affairs segment and thenbusiness development and licensing.
So this is a different event.
(01:15):
It's like one powerful umbrella from FiercePharma and Fierce Biotech, to combine all of
these different areas so that it's acomprehensive look at strategies to unify
scientific messaging across cross functionalcollaboration.
And then medical affairs sits with inside ofit.
So this should be awesome.
For more information, just type in fiercePharma Engage twenty twenty five.
(01:40):
You can get more details, and I hope to see youthere.
I will definitely be there as well.
So, Trish, let's well, first of all, welcome,Trish.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me.
Such a pleasure, honestly.
I love the little intro you gave because it'strue.
We literally met at a couple of meetings, had alittle bit of a chat, and thought this could
(02:01):
be, like, a really cool topic that mightresonate with a lot of listeners.
Oh, definitely.
And, and you're the perfect person to talkabout this because you were an MSL, and then
you've played a number of different roleswithin medical affairs.
But, like, take me back.
What did you love about being an MSL?
Let's start with let's start with the funstuff, the good stuff.
(02:26):
What I really loved was being that outside,person, the the collision facing person at the
end of the day.
I think I really, personally, I really loveengaging with people as you might have noticed.
And I I just love being there sitting next tosome brilliant KOLs.
(02:48):
Honestly, some of these minds are justphenomenal, and you just sit there and have
conversations that really matter.
So and these are, I think, the moments when Ithink all of us can relate to when you have
these interactions.
That's when you're like, oh, yeah.
I had a really good job, and I really made adifference.
So everything to do with KOLs and seeing howyou can drive a difference, that was probably
(03:11):
my favorite part.
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
And I I, you know, I hear that a lot.
I I have said this many times.
I think the MSL job is one of the best jobs inthe world, but it does not come without a
certain level of frustration.
Just like any job, really.
So when you think back, what were some of thethings that were frustrating to you as an MSL?
(03:37):
I think you know what?
I'm one of the things was actually getting tothose moments that I just described.
So being able to sit next to that clinician ornurse specialist or whoever it might be.
Because I think especially when you're maybenew and there are there are different
(03:58):
situations, but let's say you're actuallybuilding a new MSL team and maybe it's a
therapy area that the company hasn't reallyworked in before, you need to first establish
those connections.
It's great when you know the people, whensomeone can introduce you to the people, and
then it's relatively easy.
Not saying it is, but relatively easy topotentially get that appointment.
(04:18):
But when you're new and you need to actuallywrite these emails and maybe people don't get
back to you.
You think, oh, how can I actually make animpact?
How can I change something?
Because I truly feel that, actually, a lot oftimes, you need to give it a shot, and then you
see what the value is.
Right?
We often said different, medicines.
(04:42):
You say, okay.
Just just try it on one patient, especiallywhen you know that it's really, really good
meaningful new option for patients.
You just say to these clinicians, just give itgive it a shot.
See how it works on one patient.
And sometimes they get back to you and you say,oh, it's it was really amazing.
Thank you for making me try this.
Now I know how I can how I can use this drug.
(05:03):
And it's sometimes the same with an MSL.
Right?
People sometimes just think, oh, this thiscompany person contacts me.
I'm not quite sure what they want from me.
Maybe they still see you as a sales rep.
They don't really understand the difference.
And then you just think to yourself, just giveme a shot.
Just let me sit next to you, have thatconversation with you so that I can show you
(05:24):
how I can help.
Right?
So it's this kind of, you know you can make adifference, but having that opportunity to show
people that.
And then so in I I wanna stay on this for asecond.
In that scenario, what would you advise peopledo?
Do they seek out a mentor?
Do they go to their supervisor?
Do they ask a teammate?
(05:45):
What would you advise somebody do in that typeof situation?
I so first of all, I think a couple of maybedifferent options.
So one thing is just because someone doesn'tget back to you, don't give up.
Like, you know Right.
It's basically
They don't hate you.
(06:05):
Exactly.
They don't hate you.
They just don't know you.
Maybe they're just super hyper skeptical of ofindustry, and they don't want anything to do
with it.
Don't take it personally.
Right?
If they don't want, there'll be someone elsewho would glad who will gladly meet with you.
So Mhmm.
You know, just finding the right people.
You know?
It's just like finding your crowd that you canactually work with and connect with.
(06:27):
So maybe that's one thing.
Don't give up.
The other thing is maybe do speak to, you know,whether it's your line manager, whether it's
your team, whether it's even, like, your salescolleagues that maybe work in the same
territory.
Because sometimes they know people who knowpeople, especially when it's one of these
people that you or k o l's that you really feelyou need to meet because they're this big voice
(06:50):
in in the space that you're working in.
Try to make it happen somehow.
Right?
Don't just wait for the email to come back toyou.
Maybe through people or through going to aconference, you have that opportunity to just
go and introduce yourself in person.
Right?
So try and find ways to how you could stillmake that connection if if you feel it's so
desperately needed.
(07:11):
Mhmm.
And because you've mentioned mentoring, Iactually really like that because maybe not
just in that scenario, but I think mentoring,irrespective of what you do, is super useful.
Right?
You you always get this different perspective.
You might feel a little bit stuck in the rolethat you're doing or in the situation that
(07:34):
you're currently in.
And that that mentor can just give you that,hey.
Have you looked at it this way?
Or have you thought about it a different way?
Or why don't you approach it this way?
So I think even in those situations where youfeel you might get stuck, there's nothing wrong
of reaching out to a mentor because maybe Imean, it sounds maybe super simple, but maybe
(07:54):
there's something you could write in that inthat email introduction that might be just a
little bit different.
We can maybe, you know, create that hook that,you know, when someone reads it, so when the
clinician reads it, they'll be like, actually,this sounds interesting.
Maybe I will get back to that person.
So even in that situation, a mentor might bereally useful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(08:14):
And, you know, this just reminds you brings meback.
So I was in in the field for ten years before Ibecame a recruiter and a podcaster and the
stuff I'm doing now.
And I just remember, like, you would get out oftraining or you'd get out of the POA, and you
would it would you would feel so good because,like, there was all these rah rah moments, and
(08:34):
you were all excited about the company, and yougot energy from all of the leaders at the
company.
And then you're out in the field, and then youget hit with, like, rejection, like we're
talking about now, or you're having somestruggles, or you're trying to get access,
you're trying to get those meetings, and youkinda feel detached a little bit.
You feel like you're on an island, sorta.
(08:56):
And that's why, like, I this idea of, like,it's lonely in the field as an MSL, it's the
same.
Like, when you're field based or virtual,sometimes you just feel detached.
Can you talk a little bit about your experiencewith that?
Absolutely.
And, I I think there are days and days.
We all had those days.
(09:18):
I think sometimes it all comes together.
Right?
You you kind of trying to make connections.
You try to meet new people.
You try to do your job.
You don't hear anything back, and then you feela little bit detached because you don't sit in
the in the office.
You don't go in every day or every other day.
You don't have those in person team meetings.
Yeah.
You do feel a little bit like floating.
(09:38):
Right?
You're thinking like, what's what am I doing?
Am I missing something?
Am I doing the right thing?
I think especially in the beginning, Isometimes had days like that.
So I came from a clinical job being a clinicianby background.
And it was just yeah.
Sometimes you felt, am I doing the right thing?
Am I missing something?
(09:59):
So I think we all had those days.
So first of all, think it's normal.
Don't over overthink it, over panic.
And maybe I think what I in hindsight, what Iwould also say is, as as if anything, it comes
and goes in waves.
Right?
So you might have maybe a slow few days.
(10:20):
Maybe you feel a bit like, you're not surewhether you're making that in difference, but
then it'll come.
You know?
When you're doing the right thing, when you'reputting the motivation in, you will get to that
point where it'll pay off again.
You know?
And it sounds gonna be easier than it sometimesfeels, but I I I I'm I'm a true believer when
you put the effort in and you think it throughand you have the right strategy, I'm sure it'll
(10:45):
look it'll come back to you in a in a good way.
And yeah.
Pretty much.
Yeah.
Now you're dealing
with that.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
I May can I just say one thing as well?
And I think what sometimes helped me as wellwas just to think, how does it actually
connect.
You know, when you feel that you're on thisisland and you're not quite sure whether you're
(11:08):
making impact, maybe just even ask thatquestion.
You know, I know that in an ideal practicesetting, you are in the field.
You know exactly what why you're doing whatyou're doing, and you know exactly how those
insights that you're gathering connect to thestrategy and how it then translates into
tactics.
You know?
And I know that it's not always as easy asthat.
(11:31):
But but some people, maybe they just need thatadditional motivation of, okay, how do I how
does my piece of the puzzle fit into thatbigger picture?
Just just ask that question.
Have that conversation with your line manageror with some head office colleagues and just
say, hey, you know, we've been working on thisand we got all these insights.
(11:53):
Like, how are they driving actually what whatwhat we want to do next year?
You know?
So maybe it's also this actually seeing howwhat you do translates, and I think that will
automatically then should give us a boost aswell to continue what we're doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
I totally agree.
And I like what you said about, you know, kindagive yourself a little bit of grace and give
(12:14):
yourself a a little bit of a break.
I had someone say to me one time, one of thegreatest lessons I learned is that you you may
not get two good days in a row when you're inthe field.
You just might not because, like you said, itebbs and flows.
You're gonna have some good days and you'regonna have some bad days.
You're gonna have some really exciting momentsand then you're gonna have some moments of
(12:36):
frustration or some moments where it's just notit didn't go as well as you had planned.
We all have the same idea, like, every day isgonna be perfect, and it that that doesn't
always happen.
And then the other thing I remember is it'simportant to have a really strong internal
network.
And I I befriended a lot of people that weremore senior than I was so that when there were
(13:00):
those days where I kinda felt like I wasbanging my head against the wall or I I reached
some type of let's call it, a setback or afrustration, I had somebody that I could call
and say, hey.
How did you handle this?
Or what advice do you have for me?
And it's gotta be the right person becausethere's a misery loves company kind of thing.
If you contact the wrong people, they're justgonna bring you down.
(13:22):
You don't want anybody draining your bucket.
You want people filling it.
So I stayed away from those people.
You know what I mean?
You know what I'm talking about?
Totally.
Oh, totally.
It's like I didn't call you for you to make mefeel worse.
Right?
I know.
That's how I love it.
I have to laugh because that is so true.
It just sometimes takes time to identify thosepeople.
(13:43):
Right.
Yeah.
And every once in a while, it's good to have agood bitch session, but, like, that's that's
not gonna get you anywhere.
You know?
Yeah.
%.
When you think back, were there challenges orthings that you weren't expecting?
Maybe setbacks or challenges or things that youjust weren't prepared for or maybe you just
(14:06):
didn't didn't, you know, expect to happen?
Good point.
Yes.
I mean, I think in the beginning, especiallywhen you when it's your first job in industry,
everything's a little bit like an experience.
Right?
You you kind of you're trying to figure out howit all links up and and connects with one
another.
(14:27):
What I found sometimes, yeah, interesting and alittle bit challenging is let's say, you know,
your group of MSLs, you keep hearing the samefeedback or insights.
You know?
You kinda feed these back to the head officeteam.
And then maybe sometimes months later, at somerandom meeting, someone from the head office
(14:49):
team says, oh, you know what?
Oh, I wish we had known about that.
You know?
And you just think to yourself, well, we'vebeen telling you for months.
So you sometimes feel like, do you actuallylisten to what we have to say?
Like, we sit in the field and we're there for areason.
Just just trust us and our feedback.
So sometimes it's just kind of like, have youhave you paid attention?
(15:13):
I think another frustration sometimes was and,of course, everything depends on, like,
business strategy and so on.
I completely understand that.
But when you're in a Masell and let's say youmake this connection of a clinician, nurse
specialist, whoever, health care professional,and they come to you with this great idea of a
project.
And you think, this is so amazing.
(15:35):
It's meaningful.
It fits with strategy.
It it could really establish an amazingrelationship for us.
And then there's this hesitancy on the inside.
Right?
You you kind of so passionate about thisproject, and you bring it to the people on the
inside to evaluate.
And then there's no you you don't get thatexcitement back that you were hoping for, and
it's just a little bit like, oh, not surewhether we should do that, not sure whether we
(15:58):
can change the budget to make sure thishappens.
And then you think, guys, but just just listento the name.
Like, this is someone you want to work with,and they're coming to us with an idea.
So you have these moments as well when youthink, like, am I in the right movie?
Yeah.
And how how far do you take that?
Like, obviously, you need to know your place.
But if you feel really passionate aboutsomething and you wanna advocate for yourself,
(16:22):
like, do you keep do you keep asking?
Like, I'm curious.
To be honest, in my experience so far, when Igave the right rationale for the right project
and gave, like, the whole story, I mean, no onereally said no.
Right?
I mean, there might be initial hesitancy tosay, oh, is this the right time?
(16:44):
Not quite sure.
And maybe the internal approval takes a littlebit of time, but there will always be at least
a couple of people that actually hear you andjust then will support to see it through.
You know?
So I thankfully, I haven't had a situation yetwhere there was something super passionate
super amazing that I was passionate about whatpeople just said.
(17:05):
No.
We really don't have the money for that.
It it just always somehow happened.
And maybe this is where, you know, when you'repassionate and you know it's the right thing,
for whatever reason, for patient reasons,whatever else, usually, you know, common sense
prevails.
Right?
And Right.
Then it works out.
Yeah.
Let's talk about KOL access since it's it'ssuch a big issue now.
(17:28):
But got you know, going back, would you say isthere a perceived notion that access is easier
than it actually is?
And can you recall when you got out in thefield, were you like, wow.
This is way harder than I thought.
How what was your experience like?
(17:48):
I fully agree.
I mean, I think in the beginning, I didn'treally, % know what I was getting myself into.
I like the fact that it was this externallyfacing position
Mhmm.
That kind of still connected me to my oldclinical world in a way.
So it felt like a little bit at home becauseyou're talking with, with clinicians, etcetera.
(18:10):
So that was nice, but I definitely didn't knowwhat I was, you know, what I should be
expecting, to be honest.
And, absolutely, I think sometimes when people,you know, people say, oh, yeah.
It's it's easy.
You just write an email, and then you do yourjob.
Like, it's it's quite a cushy thing.
I was told at one point as well from someonewho's not in industry, you're like, no.
(18:35):
Actually, it can be really tough.
Like, it's not that easy.
Just write an email, and here you go.
Everything's amazing.
So absolutely.
And I think what I found interesting issometimes it actually coincided a little bit
with the life cycle of the product that youwere in, I felt, as well.
So let's say you're working on a product thatis, you know, either in prelaunch phase or just
(19:02):
about launch phase, sometimes clinicians felt alittle bit more open as well.
Right?
They were like, oh, this is this new thing.
Yeah.
I want to speak to someone with the companybecause maybe they can tell me all about that.
You know?
So it felt like an easier sell.
Mhmm.
Whereas when it's a product that has been onthe in the, you know, in the market for for a
while, clinicians know about it, and maybethere are already newer kids on the block.
(19:25):
They're a bit cooler.
Right?
Then I think it's sometimes a bit moredifficult to get that traction and get that
first move in and first first opportunity tomeet that person.
So I think it depended a little bit of that.
And the reason I say that is because when Istarted in immunology, we will work I was
working on diff on two different drugs, andthey were at different life cycles in different
(19:49):
the therapy areas within immunology.
So you could see that you could see andcontrast between even different specialties.
And I could tell you that, you know, this, youknow, gastroenterologist, let's say, they were
like, yeah.
Cool.
Definitely.
Let's meet.
I really wanna hear more about it.
And then maybe rheumatologists were like, oh,well, but hesitant to get back to you, you
(20:10):
know, just as an example.
So don't be surprised because I think there areall kinds of things that could influence
clinicians as well to reply or not reply toyou.
Yeah.
And it's like anything else.
I I think that you you develop you get betterat it as you go.
And even in difficult markets like now, you youstart to figure on you you figure out what
(20:33):
works Yeah.
And you see you know, again, you look atexamples from others, and there's, you know,
internal trainings, and there's there's a lotof different ways or social listening.
There's all these different other thingsavailable that can can help you with the
knowledge that you might need about your KOLs.
(20:54):
It might take a little bit longer, and it mighttake extra digging, and there might be a lot
more research involved now.
But with AI and some of the other technologies,I think it's just a matter of, like, really
having patience, and realizing that it's not aneasy thing and that you're not the only one
that's struggling with it, and then you'll getbetter at it.
(21:15):
Absolutely.
And you know what?
There's one thing you mentioned about theinsights and the AI.
I truly feel that when you find that sweet spotof how you can add value, people won't reject
you.
Mhmm.
Right?
So and I think it's knowing that person thatyou're writing to as well.
So are they really into their research?
(21:37):
Are they, like, super, you know, this big KOL?
Or are they more, I don't know, superpassionate about, patient access programs or
something?
So know what they want to talk about.
Right?
Because when you, write that scientific KOL andemail and you ask them about patient access,
(21:57):
just making it up, you know, they might not getback to you because they think, well, it's
nothing to like, I'm not interested in that.
But I think with all the opportunities that wenow have with the, social listening and and
really understanding the KOL better or, like,you know, your KOL is better, you can tailor
your message.
And I think that's the thing.
Right?
Don't just, like, copy paste and send the samething to everyone.
(22:19):
But just, like, tailor a little bit and make ita little bit more personal.
And I think then as well that could be anotherway to kind of gain a bit of traction in the
beginning.
Yeah.
And this and I think you'll notice too that youyou start to stack wins.
When you see that one thing works well, youstart to do more of it, and then you just kinda
stack the wins, and then you get a lot betterat it.
(22:41):
So with time, you learn how to overcome some ofthose frustrations and and kind of predict or
develop your own success and stack your ownwins so that it's the frustrations are
minimized.
But let's let's talk about I don't wanna makethis you know, this is about, you know, the
(23:06):
overcoming the challenges of of being fieldbased and being kinda lonely in the field.
I don't wanna make it too gloomy and doomy, buta lot of this, I think, is helpful.
So let's talk about the, and this isn't aboutburnout per se this episode, but let's
incorporate that word into the conversation.
(23:27):
You know, a lot of times people are out thereand there's there's, you know, there's the
frustrations that we're talking about.
Then there's travel, and there's there's a lotof, you know, extensive travel and travel
issues.
And, so can you talk a little bit about whatyou've seen, not just from your own journey,
but from other MSLs that may have have gonedown a path of, like, man, I'm just getting
(23:51):
burnt out doing this job.
And what would you what advice would you givefor those people?
Great point.
Great point.
Because, at the end of the day, there's alwaysmore than we could do.
Right?
So you put a lot of pressure on yourself.
You want to make it perfect.
So very easy to to go down that route, really.
(24:11):
So what what helped me a little I think it'ssometimes going back to what I said with giving
yourself a break Mhmm.
Literally meaning that.
You know, sometimes, you know, what makes senseis, I guess, you know, when you know you're
going to city a for on a on a Wednesday andyou're staying Thursday, a, maybe try and see
(24:34):
whether you can combine your travel.
Maybe there's, like, an they bring in the firsttee and you know someone there already.
So rather than traveling back and forth I mean,this is maybe giving super simple a super
simple example, but just try and, plan yourtrip.
Like, any holiday that you really really do andyou want to kind of organize itself, do the
same thing.
(24:54):
Like, maybe there are a couple of other thingsor people you could meet while you're in in
that one place.
But then so when I was in situations where Idid stay overnight because I had, you know, a
couple of meetings in the same region, I wouldjust take the time to maybe, let's say, walk
through the city center.
So, you know, rather than jumping on a cab andgoing straight to the hotel and then working
(25:19):
until midnight, I would say, you know what?
I'll actually walk it.
I'll walk, then you can see the a little bit ofthis, you know, of the place that you've
visited, and, maybe go and and rather thanhaving just a takeout in a hotel, actually go
sit down outside and just give yourself thatmental break.
Because I think it's super easy for you to feellike you're traveling and dependent whether
(25:41):
you're let's say you're driving.
You don't really feel that you do much.
Right?
Because you sit in the car and you might bedriving for five hours or four hours, whatever.
But it feels like you haven't done your job.
Mhmm.
So it's super and get to point to to where youhave to go and then just work for the rest of
the evening.
Right?
Because you feel you actually haven't doneanything today.
(26:01):
But actually changing that mindset andthinking, no.
Actually, driving four, five hours is part ofmy job.
I don't need to necessarily make up for it andwork until midnight.
I can just say, okay.
I'll do the emails.
I have to do a prep for the meeting the way Ihave to prep, but then give yourself that
downtime that you would when you're in a headoffice role.
(26:23):
You go home and maybe you cook dinner and spendtime with your kids or with your dog so you
have that downtime.
So see it in the same way.
Like, even when you're traveling and you're outsomewhere else, give yourself that downtime.
And that helped me a lot.
Yeah.
And I think back, it's like you get in agroove.
Like, what's your groove?
Like, what's your routine?
(26:44):
So if you have a four or five hour drive, howdoes that go?
What are you bringing with you as far as snacksand drinks?
And Yep.
Is there a favorite coffee shop that you knowis on the way that you could stop at that you
can look forward to and say, okay.
Halfway, I'm gonna stop at this coffee shop orat this deli or whatever and and kinda treat
yourself and, you know, make it a little bitmore of an adventure.
(27:07):
Like, is are there people that are there phonecalls you can get out of the way?
There always is.
It's a four hour drive, five hour drive.
Let's get some phone calls out out of the way.
Maybe you wanna listen to a podcast.
I know a really good podcast that you canlisten to.
So maybe maybe you line up a couple of ofpodcast episodes and say, I'm gonna catch up on
(27:28):
some of this stuff.
And it becomes, you know, more of, like, a, youknow, professional development kind of
situation.
So you gotta give yourself stuff to lookforward to.
I think that's what helped me.
A %.
I love that looking forward to somethingbecause totally and you know what?
I fully agree.
And also, just take it as it is.
(27:51):
Because sometimes, let's say you're goingsomewhere and you're super prepared and you do
all the things that you just suggested, listento podcast, do everything.
Maybe on the way back when it's a Fridayafternoon, you really don't feel like it, and
you just want to listen to some music or listento nothing.
Yeah.
And give yourself that break.
Don't feel that now because I'm in the car, Ihave to do 20,000 things.
(28:12):
Right?
Maybe one day you're motivated and you reallywant to, and then maybe on another day you
don't feel like it.
So don't pressure yourself that you have to do20,000 things.
Yeah.
So fun fact.
So when I do a solo podcast or if I have, atalk that I have to do or if I'm speaking
somewhere, I turn I look forward to the timesthat I'm in the car and or working out, and I
(28:39):
turn everything off.
And I practice and I practice and I practice.
And sometimes I practice out loud.
Sometimes I practice in my own head dependingon where I am.
But that alone time and that unplugging on thatdrive or on that treadmill or whatever it is is
so valuable.
And it's it really does help out because nowyou're so much more comfortable when it's time
(29:03):
for you to go present because you've alreadyvisualized it and you've done it 20 times.
I see.
Yeah.
And sometimes best ideas come when you actuallygive yourself that downtime.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
So as we're talking about, like, podcast andand some of these these tips, like, are there
any other resources that you can recommend,like, you know, books or things that people
(29:26):
should be reading or filling their mind with?
Sure.
Of course, this podcast, right, has to be,like, number one.
I don't wanna have to say it.
I don't wanna have to say it.
I think I mean, there are a number of things Iwould suggest, really.
So on the one hand, we mentioned mentorsearlier.
(29:47):
So think about maybe connecting with peopleregularly, you know, and and getting, like,
that outside different perspective.
So mentoring is, I think, a really valuabletool.
Then depending on on what you crave as well,there are all these medical affairs societies,
right, like MAPS and and other things.
(30:09):
I think sometimes that might be quite usefulbecause, a, there are resources for field
teams, but also, it gives you maybe a littlebit more of an insight into, like, the, in
house strategic planning or anything like that.
So I I what I'm trying to say is mayberesources that don't just solely focus on how
(30:30):
to be the best MSL, that's fantastic, ofcourse.
But then how does that link with the with thestrategy and the the, you know, in house things
that happen as well behind the scenes?
So maybe understanding that, especially whenyou're maybe a new MSL and you feel like, oh,
how how does that fit in?
How do I how can I make a difference?
Actually, understanding a little bit how thestrategic side of things work, and, you know,
(30:56):
that that might that might be useful as well.
And then, yeah, there are there are actually somany books.
I mean, I love going to a bookstore, butsometimes I'm overwhelmed because there are all
these options.
But I had a really great recommendation from,actually, one of my mentors, and he suggested a
book, called Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed.
(31:18):
Mhmm.
And that really talks about diverse thinkingand diverse perspectives.
And that's something that really resonated.
Right?
Because a lot of times people say, oh, youknow, I resonate with someone.
We kind of have we're thinking the same way.
We're thinking alike.
(31:38):
So it's easy to partner, but actually thatchallenges you to say, well, maybe you actually
need these people that think differently sothat you get a different perspective.
And maybe that's actually a better team thatyou can inform because you get different
perspectives and you don't just looking at itat well, from one direction.
Right?
So, that book talks a little bit about that.
(31:59):
So that was a really great recommendation.
I I think that it's such a good time now versuswhen when at least when I was out in the field.
I mean, I'm I'm a hundred years old.
So, like, you're going back a long time forwhen I was out in the field, but now there's,
like, you know, they didn't have podcasts backthen.
(32:20):
They had, like, books on tape or, like, youknow, but now there's there's obviously, there
there's podcast, there's social media, there'sx, there's LinkedIn, there's masterminds and
coaching programs.
And like you said, like, MAPS is coming up inin February.
MAPS is just such a great organization.
(32:43):
It just like, I think being out in the field,you wanna be you wanna feel empowered, and you
wanna feel like there are resources availableto you, but you have to take the ownership of
that personal and professional development.
That has to that rely that has to come fromyou.
Your company is gonna provide training, but youhave to take responsibility.
(33:06):
One of the so we have a coaching and trainingprogram called through MSL mastery.
We have a cohort for new MSLs called RISE.
And I mentioned it because the peep the newerMSLs that are in RISE, they get to see what
others are experiencing and learn from othersand get coached by experts at the same time.
(33:27):
It's empowering.
It's resourceful.
It just brings people to a whole another level.
That's why we call the program RISE.
So and I'm not saying everybody has to joinRISE if you're a new MSL.
What I'm saying is there there's free programsout there.
There's there's all sorts of resources, but youhave to be the person that takes control of
(33:48):
your professional development.
You can't wait for somebody else to do it.
A %.
Fully agree.
And like you say, I think maybe sometimes thesedays, there's so many options.
So you wonder where do I start?
But at the same time, no excuse.
Absolutely.
Like, there's you know, it's in your hands toreally understand something that maybe you
(34:09):
don't feel that comfortable with.
Right?
It might be maybe you don't quite understand, Idon't know, something about the business
planning aspect.
Well, go and read about it or ask someone fromthe MAPS team or ask your mentor.
Right?
Or how you can develop when it also comes tocareer opportunities, etcetera.
There's all these resources.
So just take the time and find what what you'relooking for to kind of, yeah Yeah.
(34:34):
Help you.
Absolutely.
So what final piece of advice, what would youtell MSLs or even aspiring MSLs, people that
are that are hoping to get into the MSL role,let's say, this year.
What advice would you have in general for thosefolks?
Enjoy it.
(34:55):
I mean, it's it's really it's an amazing, jobopportunities.
It's an amazing role.
You meet so many truly fascinating people thatreally are so passionate about making, an
impact and difference, in patients' lives thatreally love it.
They're just like, you know, health careprofessionals by heart, and it's just so
(35:18):
aspiring and, amazing to to meet these people.
So it's a genuinely, genuinely fun job, soenjoy it.
Enjoy that you're actually that person thatgets to meet all these people, because there
are other roles within industry that do not getto trouble.
And I had actually even a conversation recentlywith someone from our compliance team, and she
(35:42):
was like, oh, yeah.
Actually, I wish I could travel a little bitmore.
And because even for them, you know, theysometimes say we could actually see how things
come together when we kind of advise on things.
So there are people that maybe I don't wannasay envy, but maybe, could be a little bit
envious because they just sit in an office anddon't go anywhere as such.
You actually have the luxury that you cansometimes travel.
(36:04):
And like we said before, explore new places,give yourself a little break, see where you're
going, meeting new places.
So it's a very it's a very, fulfilling, variedjob, and I think that is really that's I would
just say enjoy.
And at the same time, don't be fooled to thinkthat you just because we're now in a virtual
(36:27):
world, that you just sit there, write emails,and that's it.
So it's not something that you're not an admin.
Right?
So if you were looking for an admin job, it'snot it's not the right thing to do.
Great advice.
Awesome.
Best job in the world.
Best job
in the world.
Yeah.
Trish, you're the best.
Thank you so much.
(36:47):
Too.
Let's I'm I'm so glad that we had a chance todo this.
Let's keep in touch.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been a real pleasure.
Thank you.
Awesome.
And thank you guys for watching and listeningand sharing this show.
Appreciate you all.
Love you guys.
And, I'll see you on the next episode.
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