Episode 7: The D3 Mythbusting Episode Featuring Zach Filzen and Sean Smiley

Jared here, and I have a problem to report: Through my recruiting consulting work, I consistently find that young athletes and their parents don’t understand DIII basketball.

This week’s episode aims to fix that, and I have two AMAZING guests to help get it done: Zach Filzen of Bethel University and Sean Smiley of Fredonia State University. Zach and Sean are two great DIII Head Coaches who also happen to be old friends. 

Despite having two very different coaching journeys (which you will learn more about as you listen) these two have a few things in common that make them perfect guests for the DIII Mythbusting episode:

1. They both were gifted DI athletes who ultimately chose DIII coaching 

2. They both already experienced major coaching success at the DIII level

3. They both were recently hired to rebuild basketball programs at schools in OUTSTANDING DIII conferences

Tune in to hear Zach and Sean explain how Division III ACTUALLY works. You’ll learn how DIII coaches recruit, what the DIII competitive standard looks like, what it takes to be successful at the DIII level; and most importantly, why DIII is a GREAT option for aspiring college athletes.

This episode is packed with valuable lessons and inspiration. Don’t miss it.

– – – – – – – – – –

Have a question that you’d like answered by me or a guest?  Have an idea for an episode topic? Have no suggestions but just want to say hello? Email me at [e-mail] 

To obtain more information about my coaching services or to check out the book, visit www.nailtherecruitingprocess.com

Follow me on social media!

Instagram - @NailTheRecruitingProcess
X (Twitter) / TikTok - @JaredTheCoach

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
This is, I don't have a more eloquent way to say this fellas.
We've gotten older.
100 % 100 %
having, yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
Our topics of conversation have changed.
yeah, I'll let the audience in right here.
By the time this airs, I will be a brand new dad.

(00:24):
And I was just getting some parenting advice from, now this is just crazy how time works.
Like we're all on our own journeys at different speeds.
Zach, you have a six year old, Sean has toddler.
And all the preparation has been positive.
I'm not putting any.
any words in your mouth, but it sounds like you are enjoying the balance of both coachinglate teens and young adults and also growing a young child.

(00:52):
Is that fair?
Without a doubt, without a doubt, it's been awesome.
yeah, no, it's definitely, it's definitely fair, you know, helps when you win, but it'sfair.
No doubt.
No doubt.
That's so awesome.
Well, I'm so excited that you guys made this time.
It's so good to see you and I'm really excited to catch up with you publicly on thisplatform.

(01:13):
So the parts you missed in the introduction is, and I talked about your playingexperience, I talked about our previous relationship, and I also talked about your choices
and the directions you take.
You know, we we a lot as coaches about fit oriented decisions and you both are coaching atplaces that ideologically fit you right now.

(01:34):
And D3 in general is a decision that's based on fit.
So I'm really excited to basically have you guys be our D3 men's basketball tour guidesfor this podcast.
And I wanna start really by opening this up, you know, as really a round table discussion.

(01:55):
We have all had impactful moments at the division one level.
I was introduced to college basketball
when I was doing grad work with you guys playing at UB, you guys were successful D1athletes.
So I think maybe someone that doesn't understand what we do as much might see you guys orlearn about our backgrounds and be like, well, why aren't they coaching D1?

(02:20):
And I don't want to ask it that plainly.
So instead I'll ask what makes division three right for both of you at this time?
Go ahead, John.
For me, it's honestly been, I look at it and I always have it, not just in the frame of myjob, but also in the frame of players, how we prepare all, I don't look at the levels as

(02:47):
levels.
And that probably changed after I got my foot in the door at the Division III level.
Like, you know, all I ever knew growing up, I wanted to be a Division one player.
Like that was the goal.
That's what I worked hard for in middle school, high school.
And, you know, you achieve the goal as a player and then that's the only world, you know.
but, but now that I've, I've seen the other side, like, I don't see, and this is metalking, what 16 years after my playing career now, like I don't see levels anymore as it,

(03:16):
as it pertains to me and my job as a coach, as it pertains to recruiting guys, as itretains to how we prepare.
as a team, how an individual player can potentially get better.
I look at it a lot less as a decision of like, Hey, I want to be a division three coachversus a division two or division one coach more of like which opportunity provides me and

(03:42):
now my family.
the best of what we're looking for in life.
Like I'm, I'm throwing you right now.
I'm 45 minutes away from where I grew up.
So my parents are close by my wife's parents are close by.
We have a two year old son.
so all of that plays a role in it.
The, the alignment with what I'm doing here at Fredonia and how my role is structured,allows me to do the things, I want to as a coach, but also as a dad, a husband and, you

(04:11):
know, son and all that sort of stuff.
So, I don't see as much as like, Hey, I'm going to consciously choose division.
There's great things about division three that you don't get division one, but there'sgreat things that divisional level that you don't get division three level.
Ahem.
and the levels.
and look at every situation and every kind of place and institution separately.

(04:36):
And what's the best situation for me.
And that's, that's where I ended up here, right?
I get to lead a program, my head coach.
there's not that many head coaches, basketball head coaches in the country, any level.
so the opportunity to do that is pretty special.
that, you know, it's not lost on me at all.
Awesome.
Sure.
For me, my journey was a little bit unique in this sense, in two ways.

(04:56):
I think the first one was I was exposed to Division III at a very, very, very young age.
My mom was, I had women's basketball coach at the Division III level and now is again,actually in the same league as me, which is kind of unique and pretty fun.
But I got exposed to a very high level Division III, basketball at a really really age.
She had them in her programs, top 10 in the country, top five in the country.

(05:16):
Like they were legit.
So I saw very quickly.
how good this level can be, how much talent there is at this level and got exposed to thislevel at a very young age.
So I just played division one basketball.
But then from there, the other unique part was I kind of got thrown to the wolves as ahead coach at 26 at a division three in Pennsylvania.

(05:39):
And I look back at, yeah, no doubt out East, out East, back in the day, which feels likeforever ago.
It's crazy how fast time flies, but.
I look back now, I'm like, what the heck was I doing?
Like, it's 26 years old, no idea what's going on.
Just figuring things out as we go.
But I was fortunate enough to coach some pretty good teams out there and I just fell inlove with like this balance of, I think, the fit of institutions is a little bit more

(06:08):
prevalent at our level, whether it be a faith -based school or whether it be a highacademic or whatever it may be.
Ha ha ha.
went to school, where we played in college, there's a beauty to the purity of the process,I guess, when it comes to our level.

(06:31):
So that, but then they also like the other beauty of it is like this level can be really,really good.
And that's what people don't always understand.
And you look at our league, okay.
So I'm in the Mayak on Minnesota, the last three years.
one of the best players in our league has transferred to division one to, and had success.

(06:51):
Like we had to go play Colorado state play the NCAA tournament.
We had a guy be second team all league in the summit at St.
Thomas.
And then this past year we have kid transferred to university of Minnesota.
So big time.
So like there's high level basketball and there's just this beauty of combination of likefit plus no, we can be really good and being really good matters.
And that's what we're going to chase.
And, so I think for me it's, it's, it's that blend plus just, it's a, it's able, there's aunique.

(07:17):
balance and feel for us and my family and for coaching at this level, that's enjoyable aswell.
But yeah, that's kind of the big picture.
I love love because both of you have really alluded to fit.
And it's interesting because knowing what I know about you, you guys are both at placesthat fit you.
The alumni base at Fredonia raves about their experience at Fredonia and the connectednessof that campus and the accessibility of being a state school, which I know is important to

(07:45):
your value system, Sean.
And Zach, you know, knowing you at a young age and how important faith was.
to you and your family and now you're at one of the most standout faith -basedinstitutions literally in the entire country.
So what I think is so interesting is you guys as Division III coaches are walking thetalk.
You've kind of said what's important to you and you're living those things, which is to mea very important segue into now your actual value system as coaches.

(08:14):
Because one of the other really unique things about D3, and I know this from my decadeexperience at D3 is
every coach is kind of pitching a different value system because of what you alluded to,Zach, there aren't scholarships.
So you really are trying to find, we can be very good, but I also have to find the rightstaff and school that resonates with me.

(08:35):
So I always like to give any coach I'm talking to the podium to talk about the things thatthey matter the most.
I like to kind of color code it as your personal philosophy in air quotes.
So.
We'll start with you, Zach, since you went second last time.
I play by NFL halftime rules.
You guys didn't know that.
Walk through, Zach, your personal philosophy and what you're specifically trying todevelop character -wise in your players, and I'll have you go after that, Sean.

(09:17):
Well
growth, both on the floor and off the floor.
And that means They're humble.
They're eager to learn.
They're very receptive to coaching and they're self -motivated.
Like that's a big deal to me.
It was a big deal to me as an athlete.
And it's a big deal to me as a coach is like, I want guys that they're passionate aboutthis.
This isn't intramurals.

(09:39):
This isn't just like, we just do it for fun.
Like this is the real thing.
And we want guys who, who want to get after it.
So that's number one.
I just want guys who are passionate about growth or passionate about the game, passionateabout their faith or want to grow in that area.
The second thing is, is like, we want guys who are willing to die to themselves and whoare willing to fight to be connected and to be about.

(10:01):
each other, willing to put other people before themselves and serve.
I think any great teams that we've been on, there's that common, that common theme of,selflessness, togetherness.
You could say in a lot of ways, unity, connection.
Like those are things that are a big deal to us.
And I think the last thing I would say is, we are, we want guys who are willing to do whatit takes every single day to get better and to chase something really, really special.

(10:26):
We use a phrase called choose the path, like guys who are willing to, to choose thedirection they want to go.
and know what it takes to be successful and they're willing to attack it.
And that's how success happens in life, right?
Like it's like, one of the cool things for me is I think the same traits successful peoplehave in life are the same traits successful teams have.
And if we're growing one, we're growing the other.

(10:48):
And in order for us to be a championship level program, we're in the process of buildingright now.
In order for us to be a championship level program, like these traits we're teaching you,work, sacrifice, selflessness, integrity, toughness, resiliency.
Like you're gonna need them for the rest of your life.
So let's use the training ground right now of athletics, of the court to prepare that.

(11:08):
But it's also gonna, if we do these things and put ourselves in a really good position tobe successful on the court as well.
And so that's a big thing to me is like, can we use this beautiful, this awesome game ofbasketball to grow you?
But then also can we be like -minded in how we wanna approach the game and attacksomething really, really unique and really, really special.
It's always hard to follow Zach on stuff like this, cause he's so good.

(11:32):
Like this is like one of his, one of his huge strengths.
It's funny because like the number of times that him and I have had this conversation, hewas a head coach long before I was.
So like we've, when I became a head coach, even before, like when we've had theseconversations, like this is the stuff we talk about.
Cause I think, I think we're similar in that.

(11:53):
You know, he's got his like X's and O's philosophies and I've got mine and some aresimilar based on our shared experiences, some are not.
but where we're very similar is it like the number one thing for us in our programs is anX's and O's.
it's all the other stuff that we think like the intangibles and the things you do off thecourt, that lead to being able to do the X's and O's better.

(12:17):
so, so yeah, we've talked about this a lot.
So there, there might be some things that probably sound a little bit similar.
just because again, we had some shared experience.
We have probably one of the reasons we're on the podcast together.
I've been friends for so long as we share some of the same, priorities and how we organizeour programs.
but, but for me, yeah, a little bit different, like I've from where I, where I'm at now ata state school, you know, we did, I got, I came here during COVID.

(12:44):
and there was, it was a huge rejuvenation of program, when I got here.
So we didn't have a season the first.
the first year due to COVID and then we were we were kind of rebuilding ever since.
So we've been trying to infuse this program with with guys who are passionate about whatthey're doing, who are passionate about coming to college.

(13:08):
First of all, again, like that's an advantage of a state school.
Like you said, Jared, is some of the accessibility is we have guys in our program thatwithout an opportunity here at Fredonia wouldn't be in college.
We have guys here who are the first people in their families to ever go to college, toever graduate from college.
So that's a really, really big piece of what we do and how we do it is understanding whereyou are, right?

(13:34):
And having an appreciation for how lucky you are to be here and how we, I guess, parlaythat into basketball and what's important to our program is once you understand that,
well, now you can't take a day off because like,
the first guy in your family to go to college.
Like now it's time for you to step up and you're like, you can't have a lazy day becauseeveryone in your family is relying on you to graduate, relying on you to set the example

(14:00):
for the other generations that are coming behind you.
so I'm, I'm making it sound maybe like a little bigger than it is, but I think it's reallyimportant.
It's like, we, we try and find guys, we focus on a passion for what we do again, whetherit's basketball, right?
When you're in the gym for two hours during practice, like we want everything you have.
When you're in class for an hour and 20 minutes, like.
We want everything you have, like you're sitting in the first two rows.

(14:24):
you don't have a hood on, you don't have a hat on, you have a headphones in, right?
Like you're locked in for an hour and 20 minutes.
There's going to be times during the day where you get to hang out with your friends andrelax.
And, but like, we're really big on, Hey, you've got to give it everything you have.
we have a saying that we put everywhere and we talk about a lot called raise the bar.
because we want to leave this place.
We want our guys to leave this place and the team better than they found it.

(14:47):
and especially from where we were.
COVID and just post COVID to where we are now and where we want to be as a program, that'sprobably the number one priority is everything you do has to be better than you did it the
last time.
We stress that almost every single day.
The other part of it, again, some of these things are very similar to Zach's.

(15:10):
It's just as as we find guys who want to be a part of something that's bigger thanthemselves.
A lot of times, most times at any college level,
These guys are the best player on their high school teams.
A lot of times they're the best player on their AAU teams.
Well, that changes almost immediately when they step foot on the college campus.

(15:30):
Because on a college team, there can only be one best player.
Well, I have a big roster of 19 guys, right?
All 19 were the best player for the last 17 years of their life.
Well, that has to change immediately.
So if guys are ready, and we vet this out through the recruiting process, we have theseconversations.
You have to be ready to kind of give that up a little bit, take a step back and understandlike, Hey, this program has been here before.

(15:59):
It's going to be here while you're here.
And it's going to be a program long after you're gone.
Like, but let's make it better while you're here.
so are you ready to be something, a part of something, that that's a little bit biggerthan you.
And at the end of the day, and this is the third thing I think for us and for me is aspersonality wise is, is we have to find the joy in what we're doing.
It's really hard work.

(16:19):
It's really hard at any level to be a college athlete.
I think in particular, a college basketball player because of where the season falls.
I think we're one of only two or three sports that's both semesters, right?
So they're losing out on some of the Christmas breaks and some of the other breaks thatsome of the other student athletes have.
We're playing in both semesters.

(16:39):
We're practicing in both semesters.
So it's very, very challenging.
And you have to be able to find the joy in that and enjoy what you're doing.
Because as coaches, like we're asking a lot of you, you know, we're we're to get the bestout of you.
And there's days you don't, you may not agree with how far and how hard we're pushing you.

(17:02):
But at some point you have to be able to take a bird's eye view and be like, "yeah, thisis, this is really, really fun.
Yeah.
I don't, I'm lucky to have this opportunity."
Now, both of you alluded to working in a program that you are trying to rebuild right nowand how part of rebuilding that program is elevating a standard.
I want our listeners to know that the second half of this interview is going to beexclusively devoted to how we do that.

(17:29):
What recruiting actually looks like and philosophically, you know, the steps you take toget there.
It's important to me before then, though, that we learn a little bit more about yourbackgrounds and dispel a few more myths.
watching.
exhibits of this hypothesis.

(17:50):
The two of you at the collegiate level were shooting guards.
Now you could do other things.
You know, I don't want Smiley to hit me over the head with a Sports Illustrated picturedunking.
You said not me, Zach.
we?
Name some things we could do, Jared.
I'm curious now what you saw in us that we didn't.
was pretty dope.
Some lockdown defense, fighting hard over screens.

(18:14):
man, that's funny.
in fairness, you know, just like you guys said, you were younger when you started and youdidn't know what you were looking for.
That was me when I was with you guys.
So maybe I was giving you too much credit.
I don't think that I thought you were great.
Yeah.
Well, however, here's here is what I will say in order to continuously be a value add as atrue shooting guard on a division one basketball team.

(18:40):
You have to have a relentless work ethic to
consistently master your jump shot, be able to get it off quicker, be able to get it offfrom a bunch of different situations, off down screens, off stagger screens, off flare
screens, off the dribble.
And what I know about prolific shooting guards is they are insanely disciplined aboutelevating their standard.

(19:06):
And I have now seen a number of shooting guards on both the men's and women's side getinto coaching.
and something that's very black and white for them when they talk to their athletes is,you say you want this, but I don't see you doing what you say you want to do.
How much does that actually play into your coaching?

(19:28):
Because this is an important one for me.
You guys lived that standard.
How much are you preaching that to your players?
And how important is it to you to try to bring in recruits
that you think are going to live to that type of standard.
You want to take that one for a sec?
Man that is so good because like

(19:53):
catch it too.
I love it man, that's good, that's really good.
That's everything.
And like, I'm super, super passionate about it because it's what allowed me to be theplayer I was, is just how I worked and how I approached it.
And I want it to be a huge part of our program.

(20:14):
That's essentially what I referred to, choose the path.
That's essentially what it means.
We defined it as like, are you willing to pursue the work that greatness requires?
Are you willing to do what it takes to be successful?
I don't want to just hear it, I need to see it.
And that's, that's so important to me in the process as Sean talked about passion, likeurgency.

(20:34):
You can say however you want, but, but I want guys in our program that want to chasesomething special and they're willing to say it, but it's obvious to everyone by how they
work that they're willing to do it.
It takes that chase it.
And that's why we, we lift 6 AM in the mornings, right?
Like our team lifts in the fall and the spring with that assurance code six o 'clock inthe morning.

(20:56):
Because it takes it, right?
To be great, it takes a level of sacrifice and a level of work and commitment to dosomething really, really, really special.
So it's a huge thing for me.
It's a big part of my playing experience.
But it's also, I want it to be a big part of the program that we build and we create.
We have a bunch of guys, like it's obvious you look different now when you step on campusthis fall than when you left in the spring.

(21:21):
And the only way you do it is if your actions match your words.
and you do what it takes to be successful.
And I think it's so important at our level.
So Division III, we can't work with them in the off -season.
We can't work with them in the summer.
Guys who are self -motivated, guys who are passionate about this thing, and building aculture and a program of guys who are like -minded in that is huge to success at this

(21:45):
level.
Because I can't put an iron fist on them.
I can't say, hey, you gotta be here when, like, they gotta be motivated with themthemselves to chase it.
It's a big part of who I am and it's a big part of what I want our program to be about.
So I love that you brought that up because I think it's so important to success.
Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
to, I want to actually change it for you because I, having some conversations with yourecently off camera, I know that your philosophy on this is similar to Zach's.

(22:13):
And what Zach just said is really valuable.
So I want to add a small twist to this, which is Sean, you and I, even though we, I was onthe women's side and you were on the men's side, we crossed paths a little bit at the D3
level because you were a lead assistant at Hobart when they were having the mostsuccessful seasons in the history.
of the Hobart program, including a Sweet 16 run that could have gone further had it notbeen the pandemic shortened season.

(22:41):
So I know from talking to you that there's a huge difference between sustaining excellenceand building excellence.
So I guess my question for you is you and I both agree with everything Zach just said.
How do you find it?
What are you looking for?

(23:01):
in a kid on the recruiting trail that makes you go, Sean, that one.
That kid is the kid I talk to and I invest in.
Yep.
It really takes a recruiting approach.
We're really doing our homework.
And it takes a lot of effort that might not make sense if you don't understand what we'retalking about, like the intangible type stuff that we're looking for.

(23:27):
Because, and I don't want to get, you know, I don't want to get too much into specificrecruiting stuff yet.
I don't know.
But what's important to us and to me here,
isn't what usually happens when the ball is live during a game.
Right?
Like very little.
Like when we're looking for a kid who we think is going to work hard when we're not aroundin the summertime, like Zach said, we can't touch our guys.

(23:55):
So we're looking for that.
We're looking for a guy who's internally motivated, who's self motivated, who's going toget better over time and going to be about his teammates.
It's all the other things that we're looking for.
So we call it
We call it circling the wagons, which a lot of Bill's fans around here.
So, you know, we try and pay homage to that a little bit.
but we have so many conversations, while we're recruiting with everyone, except therecruit, not except the recruit, but like we talked to the recruit, but like parents,

(24:26):
coaches, trainers, school counselors, principals, superintendents, aunts, uncles, everyonewe get coaches on teams that played.
that guy, right?
What's he like, right?
If you played against them, he scored 30 points on you guys, but you beat him.
How is he in the handshake line after the game?

(24:47):
Right?
Did you see him in the gym before the game?
Was he goofing around with his friends in the stands or was he getting shots up before thegame started?
Like all of that stuff is so important.
and it's, it's funny cause it sounds like you can figure it out doing all these things,talking to school counselors.
Hey, what's, what's this guy like?
Like you think he's pretty self motivated.
You can always be surprised.

(25:10):
You can always be surprised when a kid gets to campus and maybe doesn't turn out exactlyhow you want, but we do our homework to make sure that happens as little as possible.
Because the stuff that's happening between whistles, between games, in an AAU tournament,is a kid between games, you know how AAU tournaments are in these big places with a
million courts and everything, like is he hanging out with his teammates?

(25:32):
Or is he going off on his own?
doing his own thing on his phone, et cetera, right?
Is he stretching with his teammates?
Is he hydrating?
Is he eating right between games?
Or is he going to have one game and the next game he looks exhausted because he didn'ttreat his body the right way?
Like all of that little stuff isn't little stuff, right?

(25:52):
Little thing, big thing.
Because once you're on your own on a college campus without parents around, without acoach hawking you all the time, like,
We'll teach you how to do it, but we're not going to do it for you.
Right.
So you have to be motivated a little bit.
and that's what we try and do, at least when we're recruiting is to find those guys andall it is, is just like, sounds like a lot.

(26:15):
It just takes a little bit more effort on our part, my part, my assistants.
it just takes a little bit more time, a few more phone calls, a few more conversations,just to kind of see, get a well -rounded view of what a kid is like.
kind of deep down what motivates them, what gets them going.
Do you play better when he's upset?
Do you play better when he's mad?
does he shoot after a bad shooting game or as you go home and talk, does he shoot after hejust scored 30 points or does he just go, or does you go out and celebrate?

(26:41):
Right?
Like that's the sort sort stuff that I think as players, Zach and I had, it's like ourregimented, I guess our personality is just aligned for like what we wanted to do.
We knew if we scored, we want eight for 10, right?
We were going to wake up the next morning and shoot just like we did if we went over time.
It was just our it was was habits, right?

(27:02):
And how can we find guys that have those habits?
Coaches in the gym every day.
Yeah, I have to unlock the gym for this kid before school every single day.
Awesome, right?
That's the sort of stuff we look for.
So this is to me a really good opportunity for us to dive in a little bit more to the nutsand bolts of recruiting.
Something that the three of us have in common is in varying capacities, we have all helpedbuild a program to bigger heights.

(27:32):
Like we were brought in to do something, we accomplished the mission.
And all three of us can attest that that is an extremely challenging thing to do.
It is not easy to elevate a program.
So both of you have now alluded to some of the characteristics, you know, be itintangibles, hard skills, soft skills that give a competitive edge to a player or to your

(28:01):
team.
So I'm going to give you one example.
This is like a big one for me.
And I'd love it if you can kind of piggyback with one big one for yourselves.
So for me, when I was out on the road recruiting,
huge thing for me was energy givers.
And I have a story I shared on social media.

(28:21):
One of my favorite kids I ever coached, D3 level, her AAU coach kind of gave me a heads upon her.
It was the first time I was going to see her play live.
And for the first like 30 minutes of a 32 minute game, she did not score.
And she just did everything else.
And she could not get a shot to fall.
but it never affected her rebounding.

(28:43):
It never affected her defense.
It never affected her communication.
And then it was like good AAU.
You know what I'm talking about.
Cause bad AAU is awesome.
This was good AAU.
And she, yes.
She, she just, she reads, this is a forward.
She, she's on the perimeter.

(29:04):
She makes a really good read on an aggressive defender, backdoor cuts.
Her teammate hits her.
She makes an inside hand finish and like,
the ball even goes in, she's sprinting back on defense, pointing at the person that threwher the pass.
And I remember turning to the person that was with me, recruiting with me, and I was like,her.

(29:24):
That's the kid.
So like, can you guys give an example of like something that you see, like if this wowsyou or something you see that you will definitively pursue someone if you see behavior X
on the court?
And obviously they meet the talent threshold.
No doubt.
Yeah.
Guys, yeah.
me, probably two things.

(29:45):
And they kind of go hand in hand, similar to what you're talking about, Jared.
But if I see, especially with the way, and I don't want to downplay anything, especiallywith the way basketball sometimes is played now, because again, guys watch the game at the
highest level of the NBA, and offensively guys are so good, it sometimes looks to thenaked eye.

(30:09):
Like the effort on the defensive end isn't always there.
if, if I see a guy who consistently gives defensive effort on and off the ball possessionafter possession, that's it.
That's a huge, huge, like, Hey, you're going to get a a of starters next to your name andwe're going to make sure we follow up on you again.

(30:31):
If they, if everything else they do is good enough, right?
Like if you can consistently give effort on that end, because if you're playing abasketball,
Let's be honest, like nine guys out of 10 aren't playing great defense.
Whether it's not coached, whether it's just not important, whether guys are trying toscore a few points because they know college coaches are there.
Like if you have like the wherewithal to give defensive effort, you don't have to be agreat defender.

(30:56):
Like there's a lot we can teach you in college to become a good defender.
But if you're willing to give the energy and the focus on that end and on the other end,then that's going to excite me a little bit.
And the other thing on top of that, which sometimes goes hand in hand with defense, butcan go beyond that is communication.
If there's a high school guy or at times with how things work out with us, like a juniorcollege guy or transfer who's, who's communicating, consistently communicating on the

(31:25):
defensive end, on the offensive end, in timeouts, in a huddle from the bench.
If someone's communicating, that's huge because there's not a lot of guys who
And I don't think it's coached.
It's never been coached really that well.
If you're a really good player in middle school and high school, because it's not reallynecessary.
You can just be better, right?

(31:46):
You can just get the play.
You can make the play without having to talk.
I think we all know what the college level communication is so huge.
And if that's, if there's one guy and that's one thing I don't have to teach as much.
And you can come in and know how to talk.
Well, then you're, you're, you're really coming in almost at a sophomore level.
as a freshman, if you can communicate effectively on the floor.

(32:08):
So those are probably my two things.
Like, my gosh, like you see this kid talking out here.
Like he, he might have to figure out what to say.
I don't care.
We tell our guys all the time, right?
Like doesn't matter what you say, say something.
If you do it, say it.
If you see it, say it.
Like if you're wrong and you say it, well guess what?
You just become right because no one else said anything.
Right?
So that's a huge part for us.
It's like, if you can communicate, if you can give effort on both ends, and an AAU game,Hey, let's go.

(32:33):
Right?
Like you might be the right guy.
What do you got, Zach?
I think there's two, I think there's a basketball side of things and there's more of theother stuff.
The first one is gonna sound very coach speak, but it's actually something we all, I thinkwatch a lot is body language.
Like body language of the athlete plus body language of the parent.

(32:54):
And that's what the parents sometimes forget.
Like there's guys we'll cross off the list because the parent's body language is justlike, I don't wanna deal with that.
Like I don't wanna have to have that be a part of the program.
And so that's one, like.
I actually enjoy, If there's a kid I know can play, right?
A kid I know is the level.
I want to see them not play well because when I, when they don't play well, a lot ofcharacter stuff gets revealed.

(33:18):
Like how are they with their teammates?
How are they with their coaches?
How are they with the officials?
How are they with the opponent?
Like that body language stuff reveals a lot and actually says way more than their wordssometimes.
And something that we are going to look for.
Cause you're right.
Building is really hard.
And through the process of building things are not going to go your way.
Especially early there's gonna be you're gonna lose some games you're gonna You're gonnahave games as a player where you play really well if you're young right you're

(33:45):
inconsistent Usually if you're building you're playing young guys, and they're gonna beinconsistent.
Are you willing to stay the course?
There's a kid I watched recently a kid.
That's one of our top recruits He does both the things I'm talking about one is the bodylanguage the second one is just make the right play Right, but well I watched him recently
and he just is not fazed at all
He just stays the course and stays the course and stays the course and stays the course.

(34:09):
And I think that's so important because the body language usually reveals something that'sgoing on and usually something selfish.
Right?
It's usually focused on yourself.
If you're willing to be visibly like that with your body language, use your self -focusand it's not going to be what goes into being successful and goes into winning.

(34:30):
That's the first one.
The second one is I alluded to it just...
Like We want guys in the program who make the right play and it sounds so simple.
So simple, but you can have 30 and we won't be impressed because you didn't make the rightbasketball play.
You didn't do the things that actually impact winning.
Right?
So if you shoot 25 times and 15 of them are contested pull -ups or contested, whatever,like that's not what we're going to allow when you come here.

(34:57):
So that's not what's going to impress us.
What's going to impress us is
You force the help and you make the extra pass, right?
You make one more, okay?
Your point guard, you advance while in transition when someone's open ahead of you.
Those are the things that coaches, I think, look for and watch because those are thelittle things that dictate an impact winning and dictate impact success.

(35:22):
I really really your guys' lens on this because you've prompted something.
I wasn't even prepared to talk about this to you guys, but it's a thought I had because Iwas talking to a couple of younger players that I mentor about this exact thing.
A lot of times when you look at rebuilding teams at the collegiate level, people just takea snapshot at their record and the record doesn't always tell the story of how close team

(35:42):
is.
What I specifically mean by that is I remember our, you know, as we were trying to turnthe corner at Canisius, we
were constantly in close games that we couldn't finish because we got mentally phased.
And I know in your journeys, that's a part of it too.
A lot of times people are like, you're rebuilding so you must just lose every game by 30.

(36:06):
No, we're rebuilding.
And the most important thing about rebuilding is having enough people with that winningedge, to your point, Zach, where you don't get phased as the game gets tight.
Or if you make a mistake, you have the ability to just...
right thing.
Or as you were saying, Sean, if you're eight for 10 or 0 for 10, your habits are the samethe next day.

(36:27):
And I want recruits and their parents to really understand the fine print of what Sean andZach are talking about right now, which is they have their ways of identifying before you
arrive on a college campus, if they think you're going to do those things to help clearthe winning edge.

(36:49):
And
If you don't do those things, it's nothing personal and it's not about you.
But the recruiting pool is so competitive that they will find someone that can do thosethings.
And that's where your own initial drive is so, so important.
So I thank you guys so much for sharing that.

(37:10):
Zach, you also quickly touched on parents.
And of note, there is a parent that we all know
who is currently navigating their children through the recruiting process for the firsttime.
He is former UB assistant coach and just mentor to so many people, Jim Quitchoff.
And I recently caught up with Coach Quitch and he shared something really interesting withme, which is, you know, for context on Coach Quitch, he coordinated a lot of ops, a lot of

(37:41):
recruiting efforts for UB, maybe the most...
and meticulous person I've ever met in my life and his whole thing was planning.
But he shared with me when we caught up recently how surprised he was at how muchpaperwork and additional processes are involved for families and parents once you're not

(38:03):
being recruited at the scholarship level.
And at the scholarship level, you sign your NIL, you do your financial aid paperwork andthat's it.
Now all of a sudden you're at the D3 level or non -scholarship D2 level and there's afinancial aid pre -read, an admissions pre -read, additional financial aid paperwork at
the national level.
And I think most parents are ice cold to that.

(38:28):
So I would love it if the two of you could maybe just give your favorite nugget of advicethat you give to parents on the recruiting trail for some of these processes that await
them.
the parents are much more involved in the back end of a D3 process than they are ascholarship process.

(38:49):
Mm -hmm.
You got it.
it's safe to say, I've been on the private division three institution now to state schoolhere.
So I think it's safe to say that every institution is probably a little bit different.
So what I say may be different than what Zach says today.
Because I mean, like in a state school, there's a little bit more paperwork on my end fornot just recruiting, but for anything I have to do, right?

(39:14):
There's things I have to make sure I take care of.
from a pay -worth standpoint that maybe I didn't have to when I was an assistant coach ata private school, right?
So I think every institution is a little bit different.
One thing, so I think just in general, you have to be prepared to be very, very hands -onwith the recruiting process of your son or daughter if they're getting actively recruited

(39:39):
by Division III institutions.
Especially if you have, if you're fortunate enough
that your son or daughter has multiple options at the Division III or maybe non-scholarship Division II level, because the only way to be able to compare apples to
apples or even compare apples to oranges is if you go through the process correctly ateach school.

(40:03):
We run into it a lot where because we're a state school, things may move a little bitquicker at a private school and they may get a financial aid readback.
from a competing school before they get ours back.
Well, we have to make sure we communicate that before that happens or we may lose thatkid.

(40:24):
Right?
Hey, listen, this is about the length of time a process takes here.
This is when you're going to get your read.
This is when you're going to get to get letter.
You're going to get an email first.
Then you're going to get it in the mail.
Like that communication is very, very important both for us, both to the student athleteand to their parents.
As a parent,
You have to continue to communicate with the coaches and communicate to your son ordaughter.

(40:46):
Hey, listen, like don't freak out.
If you don't hear from Fredonia right now, it might take another day or two.
It's okay.
Then we'll sit down.
You almost have to have a little bit more control of the emotions of the situation becauselet's face it.
Like if I'm a, if I'm a 17 year old student athlete and I'm getting recruited by let's saysix schools, right.

(41:07):
I'm getting phone calls probably almost every day.
I'm getting test messages.
multiple times a day emails, right?
I wouldn't be very, very excited, but potentially overwhelmed with, with just theinformation, right?
This school is asking me to do this.
This school has asked me to send this paperwork in this school is asking me for this as aparent, you kind of have to make sure that you keep, keep the emotions in check and Hey,

(41:31):
get a checklist for each school.
What do we need done?
Coach?
What do we need done?
Right?
Plunder daughter.
What do we need done?
What coach talked to you about last time?
I just saw you have a phone with coach.
What do you say?
What do you need done?
Let me help you out.
Because I think that's that's one of the unfortunate things is yeah, like it's a littlebit more hands on three level working through financial aid paperwork, whether it's

(41:54):
federal stuff, FAFSA stuff, different application processes, maybe essays, maybe you'reapplying for grants to maybe help out supplement.
Maybe you're applying for other scholarships like there's just a little bit more to do.
And if you're not prepared for that, the process might feel convoluted.

(42:15):
It's really not, but it can catch up with you quickly if you're getting recruited by 10schools versus just for comparison, if you're getting recruited by five division one
schools and you have full scholarship offers to either, all you have to do is pick one andthe rest is, you know, sign on the dotted line and you're good to go.
Right.
And I think that's the point of view.
A lot of people get, and even a lot of parents and families get is like,

(42:37):
Well, this should be easy.
They should just take care of it for me.
As a coach at a Division III institution, there are processes in place on campus forapplication for financial aid for admission that I have to wait on.
I can't push things through at certain points.
So I think that understanding of that is important.

(42:59):
Like, yeah, I can call financial aid and ask where stuff is, but you're probably going toget financial aid information before me.
Right.
And I think just an understanding of that process helps and just having a, making sureparents have a feel for like, Hey, yeah, you're going to have to do a little bit of
legwork here to make sure your son or daughter has an unbelievable opportunity.

(43:21):
wherever he or she goes.
What do you got, Zach?
I'll take a little a little different direction to some stuff I guess advice I would giveparents is well the first question I ask a kid when I talk to them it is really like what
are the three or four things that you really want like what what is it fit to you becausewe talked about fit earlier fit is everything to me through this process and I think

(43:45):
that's true of scholarship school I think that's true of non -scholarship schools likewhat's your fit and the only way you can know what a fit is is if you can articulate what
the fit is
And I think it's amazing how many times we'll talk to a kid early in the process and theydon't really know.
So I think one of the piece of advice I'd give parents is knowing your son or daughter,how can you help them through that process of figuring out, okay, these are three, four

(44:10):
things that you need to be successful, that fit you, that could help you make the most ofyour college experience.
Because the reality is,
you can figure out what those three or four things are, what the fit is program wise, notfrom a program, from a school standpoint, it's going to whittle down the list pretty
quickly itself.
And it's going to get you to a point, okay, here are the pools that are there left door.

(44:32):
So for us being a faith based school, if that's a big deal, like there's only so manyoptions, right?
It's going to whittle down the list pretty, pretty quickly.
That also then means you're not going through that process that Sean just talked aboutwith 25 schools.
It means you know, the ones that are going to be options for you and you can now.
explore those options and then communicate with the other coaches.

(44:53):
I appreciate it.
I'm very thankful for the time you invested my son and daughter, but just be honest, likeit's not the right fit for us.
The best thing we can hear as coaches besides yes is no early so that we're not wastingour time on individuals that are never really going to be a fitter.
We don't really check the boxes that they want and that's okay, but you can't do thatuntil you know what the fit is for you.

(45:17):
The second thing I would say is, and I learned this hard way because I had to transfer, isthere's a lot of coaches that are going to to you what you want to hear.
And I think the big piece of advice is there's no bad questions and ask everyonequestions.
Players, to the coaches, to the people around the coaches, your job is to figure outwhat...

(45:44):
what that coaching staff, what those people are really, really about and how they're goingto treat the players in their program.
I got blindsided.
I got blindsided my first play.
No, that is on my freshman year and I transferred transferred UB, which was way better,but we, we just didn't get to the bottom of it the way we needed to.
So I think that's the second piece of advice is like, there's no bad questions.
Like we want our parents to be engaged with us.

(46:05):
They were recruiting to ask the questions.
We're going to be an open book.
We're going to be real.
We're not perfect.
We're going to share where we're, where we're not and the ways we're trying to grow.
But that's another piece of advice I would say is like, don't be afraid to ask questions.
Don't just rely on your son or daughter to figure it out.
Be involved, like be involved and get the information that you need to feel comfortableabout it.
To add, to add one thing, cause he just said something that made sense.

(46:30):
we, we hear, I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think like we hear a lot of times,cause we have a lot of conversations with just parents, right?
We'll call mom, we'll call dad.
Hey, how's it going?
Right.
We hear a lot of times a lot is.
Okay.
Here's what I think.
I really like you.
I think this is good fit, or I think it's not a good fit, but at the end end the day, thedecision is his, the decision is hers.

(46:54):
Like.
Okay.
One, most of the time, right.
The parents are spending the money.
The vision three level, right.
We don't have scholarships.
So someone's paying, right?
Now there's a kid who's paying his own way by all means.
Okay.
But I think there has to be a level of guidance.

(47:15):
What exactly what Zach's talking about is like 16, 17, 18 year old kids, young men andwomen, right.
They don't always know what the right fit is for them and what could lead to them having asuccessful four year career and a successful future after college.
So I think there has to be some input there where it's like, yeah, it is their decision,but it's really a family decision.

(47:42):
Like there has to be a little bit of guidance from the parents or aunt's uncle, hisgrandparents, whoever's really having those conversations with the student athlete of
like, okay, tell me what you think.
I'm going to tell you what I think.
And then let's talk about this together instead of just handing the keys to a 17 year old,right.

(48:03):
And letting him make one of the probably the biggest decision of his or her life so far.
because like, like Zach said, the excitement of that situation can lead to being blindedfrom, Hey, that coach was really cool.
But if you were on a visit for, I don't know, let's say you were on campus for eight ornine hours.

(48:23):
And you saw the head coach for 45 minutes.
He might've been really cool for 45 minutes, but guess what?
Like, like as a head coach, I'm with the recruits the entire time they're here.
Right.
Because that's important to me, because I know the kids and the parents have to trust mebecause their parents are handing their kids over to me to take care of them for four

(48:44):
years.
Right.
So I'm not just going to pop in, Hey, like have the assistant coach or whoever got himaround campus, the guys, and then, Hey, like, how's it going, man?
Great to meet you.
All right.
See you later.
I'll see you later.
Right?
Like that's very important in our program is like do all these little things exactly askthe questions, right?
Because you can be blindsided and just give some guidance, right?

(49:04):
Give some guidance because I mean, parents have had a lot more life experience, both withrelationships and decision -making, than a high school kid who really hasn't made huge
life altering decisions yet.
So give some guidance.
This is so important that you just interjected and share this.

(49:24):
I want to share an example that I saw firsthand of when this goes wrong.
Disclaimer.
What I am about to say is not reflective of every AAU coach.
So please, before you wind up clutching the pearls, ready to just like take a swing at me,I'm not talking about all of you.

(49:46):
But I have, and perhaps Sean and Zach, you have experienced this too.
encountered some AAU coaches that either A, do not entertain conversations with D3 coachesat all, or B, totally do not understand the Division III process.
So here is why the advice that they just gave you is so important.

(50:06):
I had a kid come visit campus once after their AAU coach insisted that her grades werepristine and the mom insisted that she would be academically fine after I had been
requesting her transcript
for multiple weeks, but they couldn't get their hands on it.
Kid comes and visits campus, completely falls in love with campus.
And I find out four days later that not only is she not an academic qualifier for theschool I was working at at that time, she would struggle to get into most Division III

(50:36):
schools that she was currently entertaining at that time.
And it became a very important educational moment for that family where the mom
who previously had never really checked out the like academic profile of the school orlooked at financial aid information online beforehand, started doing it.
And the AAU coach who had never done that beforehand started doing it.

(50:58):
But what I guess is the most important thing for me, supplementing the incredible wisdomthe two of you just shared is You cannot assume that your mentor has this down.
You have to DIY this process as a family.
For more steps on how to DIY,
Literally email and ask questions to Zach's exact point.

(51:20):
Sit down and have conversations with your kid.
Try to get a better feel for the head coach.
I would agree with you, Sean, that the head coaches that are willing to spend more timewith you during your actual process are probably the ones that are more invested in you in
that moment.
All of these little things matter, but they don't matter at all if you don't do yourhomework in advance to establish that you're an actual qualifier.

(51:46):
and an actual fit.
With that said, we're down to our last question.
I always like to give our guests the opportunity to be myth busters.
This journey basically started for me getting data about the recruiting process andsharing with recruits and their families like, hey, this thing you thought you knew,
that's not actually what coaches are looking for.

(52:07):
So I want to kind of give you an open -ended forum here.
Is there a big misunderstanding about this whole process?
or about D3 basketball itself that you with a live microphone would love to just kind ofget on your soapbox for a minute and be like, no, this is not how it works.
Here's how it works.
I'll leave you both the floor.

(52:30):
All right.
I think for me, it's so Sean and I have a unique experience and that we both playeddivision one basketball, right?
We both had had solid careers and all that.
Now we're coaching division three.
I think the one I want to talk about is this whole idea of like the level of divisionthree basketball, like division three basketball is really good.
And like high level division three can play with scholarship schools and the guys that weactually want.

(52:57):
are guys who are getting Division II, getting scholarship school interests, but because ofthe fit of the institution, they're like, this is the place I want to be.
I respect the ones that I talk to, I respect, and I get the whole appeal of chasing thehighest level.
I get it.
I understand it.
But the one, the individuals I talk to, the recruits I talk to that are like, hey, fifth,the most important to me.
I respect that a lot.

(53:18):
And I think it's, it's showed a lot of maturity because the reality is like the bestprograms in Division III are filled with scholarship level guys.
Okay.
I talked about three guys that are playing playing one basketball from our league.
There's our league also has unique story.
And in the sense that St.
Thomas was in our league, they are, they went division one.
Okay.
So they're in the summer league the first year with the identical roster.

(53:41):
A division three, they won 10 games at the division one level.
Okay.
Year two with a bunch of division three guys, they won 19 games this past year with multibunch of division three guys still including the division three transfer.
from our league, who was second team all league in that league, they won 20 games orwhatever it was.

(54:02):
Okay.
So like this whole idea that Sometimes Division III gets this vibe that like it's almostglorified intramurals or all that kind of stuff.
No, Division III basketball is really, really good.
And I'd encourage you to watch a little bit, watch a little bit of the high level stuff,because I think you'll be, you'll be amazed.
Like, I think you'll be, you'll be impressed.
And
It's a beautiful brand of basketball in a lot of ways.

(54:24):
It's a fun level to play at, especially if you find the fit of your institution.
But I think that's a big one for me is, and I run into it a lot, is like, "hey, like, no,this is legit." And this is, You watch high level division three, like these dudes can
play.
The coaches at our level are really, really good.
And it's a very, very fun, very, very enjoyable experience.

(54:46):
Appreciate you sharing that.
What you got, Mr.
Smiley?
it's, again, it's, it's hard to, I could talk about the same things that I talked aboutbecause it's, it's so true, right?
Like, I think, if, if I took it in a little bit different direction, I guess maybe I'lltalk about two things, from a student athlete perspective.

(55:10):
if I'm, if I'm looking at schools, right, if I'm a student athlete, I'm looking atdivision two or division one, division three, like, again, try not to look at levels, look
at fit.
At the end of the day, right?
Like You're going to play college basketball.
Why?
And most, most people look at the numbers, right?
Like most people are going to get an education, right?

(55:33):
Like 4 % of high school players play in college anywhere, right?
1 % of any college player plays professionally 1%.
So 99 % of any college basketball player is playing college basketball to get aneducation.
So make that.
Number one priority at least like one a one B right.

(55:55):
That has to be the biggest piece of it.
And I think too often I was guilty of this coming out of high school myself.
It's like it was a basketball driven decision.
Right.
I wanted to play at the highest level possible.
that's what drove me.
I put on all this work and I wanted to see it pay off.
Right.
Unfortunately it did, but you never know.
Right.
Like, so understand why you're doing it.

(56:18):
Right.
And find a place that fits you academically too, because your future is really the mostimportant thing because you can have an experience.
A basketball experience as a very good player at a division three school.
That's much better than what your experience might be at that division two school.
That's recruiting you late in your senior year because they just need to fill their rosterspots.

(56:41):
Right.
So understanding that, and again, you don't know what you don't know.
Right.
So this is, this is why you have.
this podcast, you know, this is why we're talking about it is, is because for, for parentsand for student athletes, like the experience in four years while you're there, I've seen
it firsthand of guys with, we see so many players, very, very similar talent levels, verysimilar games.

(57:06):
One chases division two scholarship, which great.
Like if you can get to your school paid for, do it like schools way too expensivenowadays.
Right.
Like all four, we tell guys all the time.
not going to talk you out of a scholarship.
I'm just going to tell you what the benefits of our institution are.
Right.
Guy goes to play division two basketball because he wants to chase a vintage scholarship.
Great.

(57:27):
Same town level guy, same size.
Let's say same everything goes to division three program.
He may come to a division three program.
He may be conference for the year.
He may win a conference championship.
He may be an all conference player.
He may be an all American.
Right.
Again, same talent level guy may play eight to 10 minutes a game at the division twolevel, depending on how good he is.

(57:52):
Now he might figure it out and get really good and do the same thing.
But I'm just talking about like, what's your experience and goes back to Zach talkingabout fit.
What kind of experience do you want as a player?
You want to just say you're on a team, right?
Go for it.
Right.
Do you want to
have a chance as the best player from your high school and AU team, you want to have achance to be the best player on a Division III team or to be a part of something very,

(58:18):
very special and play minutes and have a huge impact on the floor in games at Division IIIlevel.
Maybe win some individual awards, which is not hugely important, but can make theexperience better.
That can be the decision.
So I think if you really just dive into, okay, like what, what, what are you really, youspend a lot of money on AU and travel and you put a lot of work in the gyms and trainers,

(58:40):
but like you're doing this all why you're doing it to give yourself an opportunity to havea choice of great institutions for college, for an education, to better your life for the
future.
Right.
Most not again, 99 % of the people who play in college aren't doing all of that work.

(59:01):
through their first 16, 17 years of their life to go play professionally.
Cause it's just not going to happen.
And I think understanding that kind of the reality of some of that is very, veryimportant.
Cause I think by the time you're 17 or 18, like you can have a pretty good idea of like,yeah, you might have what it takes to play professionally, even if it's overseas or you

(59:21):
might not, but either way have an unbelievable education.
Like division three schools, a lot of them,
provide better education to the Division II, Division I schools.
If we're not talking about sports, we're just talking about the academics.
Like there's unbelievable Division III academic institutions.
And if you can play sports there and have a great experience, that's what it's all about,right?

(59:44):
And that's what we try and educate everyone, parents, student athletes.
That's what we try and work through.
It's like, what kind of experience do you want?
Because at the end end the day, day,
how we approach you as coaches, Zach and I both came from the Division I level.
right?
Our expectations and our standards and how we coach you is no different.

(01:00:07):
We're not coaching you easier because you're a Division III player.
Like your lifts and your conditioning isn't any easier because you're a Division IIIplayer.
right?
It might be harder because you got to balance it with more stuff.
And you've got to find a way to do it on your own in the summertime, because ourexpectation when you come back in the fall is the same as a Division I coach's fall

(01:00:30):
expectations, who's been coaching you all summer.
Right?
So you better be self motivated.
so I think, very, very similar, I guess what Zach's saying, but I think just, just, yeah,just, just have a feel for why you're doing it.
Education's always going to be the most important thing, whether you're a scholarshipdivision one athlete, or division three athlete, it doesn't matter.

(01:00:51):
You're doing it for the education.
And if you get good enough and you work hard enough and you get to play professionally andmake some money doing it, do it.
But right, the professional career is only so long as well, you still need the education.
This was a tremendous value add and there was intention behind this.
These are two great proven young head coaches that have intentionally taken on jobs inoutstanding Division III athletic conferences that are looking to build.

(01:01:21):
And if you are a recruit or a parent, this is the type of advice that you really need tobe taking to heart because these are the people that are recruiting and trying to build
the most tenaciously.
And remember,
It is harder to build than it is to sustain.
This is the grind part.
Sean, Zach, thank you so, so much for your time.

(01:01:42):
This is just tremendously, tremendously valuable and we'll definitely do this againsometime.
Always, man, anytime.
Good to see you guys.
Yep.
Awesome.