Grit and Academic Perseverance

What is the relationship betwen grit and academic perseverance?

Teach Well Learn Well is produced by the Teaching and Learning Center at the University of Tennessee Health Science Center. 

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
In the movie.
Rudy.
The main character,an undersized young man
who did not performwell academically in high school,
attempts to walk onto the football teamat the University of Notre Dame.
Finally, in his fourth year, after years
of physical tormentby his outsized teammates,
he gets to fulfill his lifelong dreamof playing, albeit to one play

(00:23):
at the end of the game when the outcomehas already been determined.
He goes on to get his degreefrom the University.
During a practice, he keeps getting upafter being tackled again and again.
The Notre Dame coachchastises his players, telling them that
if they had half the grit as Rudy,they would be a much better football team.
But it's grit enough to succeed.

(00:46):
How do we know whether someone
has the mental toughnessto do well and side for the grit?
What are the factors come into play?
So we as educators know other studentswill succeed in our classes.
What signsshould we be paying attention to
so we can identify at risk students?
Welcome to TeachWell, Learn Well, the podcast series
highlighting the scholarship beingpublished by members of the University

(01:09):
of Tennessee Health Science Center'sCommunity about effective ways to teach.
I'm time lucky
teaching and learning center.
Each month, we interview membersof our faculty about their research
and its impact on the higher educationcommunity.
Today,we talk to a panel of faculty and staff
about their study on the relationshipbetween cognitive

(01:29):
and non-cognitive factors, including gritand performance on standardized test.
They studied hundreds of students
over four years to determinewhat variables predicted the outcome.
On a national Board for Certificationin Occupational Therapy.
With us todayare Doctor and Zackary, associate
professor and departmentchair of occupational therapy.
Hello. I'm excited to be here.

(01:52):
Glad to have you here.
doctorStephanie Lancaster, associate professor.
Looking forward to this conversation.
Great. April.
Health in instructional and academicfield.
Work coordinatorfor the occupational therapy program. Hi.
Thank you for having us. Great.
April and doctor
Amy Hall, instructional consultantsin the teaching and Learning Center. Hi.

(02:13):
Thanks, Tom,for having us. Glad to be here.
Welcome to all of you.
Our first question has to dowith this test.
The Nbc-Tv.
And can you talk a little bitabout how the test is structured
and why it's important? Sure.
So thethe NBC lot stands for the National Board
for Certification in Occupational Therapy.

(02:33):
So that's what that's short for.
And the way the test is structured,there are 180 items.
And that's comprised of a mix of threeand four option
single response multiple choice items.
And then there are also six option
multiple select scenarios.

(02:54):
So for all.
exam items, the test takers can receivecredit for selecting the correct response.
But there are no deductionsif they select an incorrect response.
I imagine there's a lot of
anxiety when students are getting readyto take this test.
There is a lot of anxiety
even throughout the program when when theythey we bring it up and mentioned it.

(03:18):
They are anxious.
And as the test draws closer,they are more and more anxious.
You are correct.
And as someone who has takenthese standardized tests myself,
even talking about itsort of triggers bad memories for me.
There's research about standardized testsand inherent bias,
especially towardsmarginalized communities.
Stephanie, is there any researchabout these types of problems

(03:39):
on the NBC lot?
Underlying factors and assumptions
that might skew the viewpoints of NBC.
What exam test takers reallyhave not been represented in the research?
My familiarity with NBC not
indicates that
they adhere very well to item writing,

(04:01):
test development,and even review and updating procedures
to ensure that readability,neutral language, and the universal
accuracy and interpretation of termsis used in the items.
So they have a very rigorous processof designing and updating the exam,

(04:22):
and that really includes addressingpotential issues of inherent bias.
As I mentioned in the intro, it'ssomething that's used a lot in our culture
that, you know, you just work really hardand you'll work your way through it.
especially in movies and TV shows,we hear it constantly as we're growing
up, that in order to achieve your goals,you just have to want it badly enough.

(04:44):
How do you define grit? April?
Grit is the combination of passionand perseverance for a long term goal.
So it's not just really wanting somethingintensely, it's maintaining
that desire overan extended period of time, despite
whatever challenges you have or setbacksyou experience.
So people who are gritty,they're not easily discouraged,

(05:06):
and they continue to pursue those goalswith that sustained effort and interest.
I'm a long distance runner,and so personally I love the idea of grit.
When I start a race,I know that I'm not the fastest
or the strongest runner out there,but I know that I can keep putting
one foot in front of the otheruntil I cross that finish line.
And so I think that's why the idea of grit

(05:27):
is so appealing, because it's somethingthat we can all control.
Your study, in fact, though,found that there wasn't a relationship
between grit and success on the test,which I was kind of surprised about.
Some of the studies that you referencedin the paper even support
this relationshipbetween grit and perseverance and success.
What's different about your study, Amy?

(05:49):
I think there are reallytwo main differences with our study.
When we looked at the literature,we really looked at grit
as a predictorof academic performance overall.
And with our study,we really looked at grit
and its predictive abilityon just that in Bco t test.
So it's just that once off,one time moment in time test exam,

(06:11):
the research that we lookedat was predictors
of the mCAT exam.
And within the literatureit really talks about demographics
gender, age race which we looked at.
And then also that academic performance.
Same thing.
We looked at those as well.
So you're talking about geography scores.
You're talking about GPAs.

(06:33):
The big thing with usis that we really focused on just grit.
And did grit by itself.
And in combination with other variables.
Predict passage on the NBC marketfor that first time?
Your instrument was a self-reportingmeasure on grit.
Are we self-aware enoughto indicate our level of grit?

(06:54):
I think of a story.
Long time ago, my daughter, had just gone through surgery
and was mostwhiny is person that you can imagine
throughout the whole thingand was always in constant pain.
And as I was driving her back to schoolthe next month,
said,I'm glad I have a high tolerance for pain.
and so are we self-aware enoughto know how much grit that we really have?

(07:19):
I think that's an excellent question.
And my answer would besome may be and others maybe not.
I guess it would depend on their levelof maturity and self-awareness.
But to your point, one of the mainconcerns about the grit scale,
especially having it used in research,is that it is a self-report measure.

(07:41):
So we don't know when the participantsare answering the questions.
Were they answering them,or do they answer them as if they want
to give an appealing answerand an answer that the faculty member
might desire them to have?
Or are they answeringtruthfully as it really applies to them?
So I think that self-reportmeasure is an important thing.

(08:03):
And we did a list that,as one of the limitations in our study.
I think it's also importantto think about the generational shift
in the interpretation and practicessurrounding grit.
I know when I was growing up,and I'm sure in generations before,
the main thing I heard in my ear frommy parents was no pain, no gain.

(08:26):
They meant that
whether I was, you know, doing somethingathletic or studying
or probably anything, and I remember themsaying and maybe even a teacher to saying
if it doesn't hurt, if it's not hard,you're not growing.
And I don't think our students of todayreally think that.
Not as a whole.

(08:48):
I think that they,they there's a sliding scale with that.
And that has changed.
And I think maybe that has also changedthe interpretation
and practices around grit generation.
Students todaylike to talk about self-care and
life balance,work life or school life balance.
And those things were not anythingthat were in our vernacular back

(09:11):
when we were in schoolor grad school or college.
And that's not to implythat they don't work hard.
It's just that the the attitude ofno pain, no gain has sort of changed.
Yeah, I don't know.
I didn't mean to implyand I don't think that the previous
belief system was superior by any stretch.

(09:31):
Not necessarily healthy, Yeah.
Yeah. Healthy. yeah. Good point.
You actually,you talk about how the students
may have been thinking aboutwhat their faculty are going to perceive
as a, as a, as a good response.
And, you also found that the grit levelsactually decreased
during times of study,which you also said might explain

(09:55):
the timing of the test, desireto impress the faculty.
And how do you think that explanationaffects the rest of your study
and the correlationsbetween grit and boycott success?
Well, the decline in the grit scorescould suggest that maybe
the external pressuresand the stress of a rigorous graduate
program can impact the student'sperseverance or their passion.

(10:17):
You know, maybe they're expectationsdon't necessarily align with the reality
of what they expectedwhen they came and began,
occupational therapy schoolor a graduate program.
So our study did not finda significant correlation
directly between gritand the first time pass rate of the OT.
But it highlights the dynamicnature of grit as a as a trait.

(10:39):
And it shows that it can fluctuate
based on your context,based on your experiences.
And it also shows the importanceof providing ongoing support and resources
to help students maintain their grit,
especially during those challengingperiods of their education.
And if I might add to that,
I also wondered if I was teaching

(11:00):
the class on on, when grit was measuredand the students come in
really eager and excitedand wanting to please the faculty member.
And as time goeson, they get to know us better.
They're more comfortable around us.
So maybe they entered a little moretruthfully the second time around,
because they know us betterand they're more comfortable.

(11:21):
And they're also trying to provethemselves to their peers as well.
Right.
And so they they come inand we talk a lot about imposter syndrome.
And what do I belong here?Do I belong here?
And so I could see on a self-study,
not knowing their colleagues, not knowing
you, not knowing anybody
that they're self-reporting,you might be a little bit
higher than lateron when they become more comfortable.

(11:44):
Yeah.
They may be tryingto prove it to themselves.
They may be trying to prove itto themselves as well.
I actually had a conversationwith most of our second year students
earlier this weekand about imposter syndrome,
and they were admitting some thingsthat I would never have
guessed about themselvesat the very first of OT school,
where they were saying they, you know,one person said on a daily basis,

(12:06):
she heard a voice inside her head saying,you don't belong here.
There's no way you're going to make it.
the Covidhappened in the middle of your study.
Covid turned the world upside downand there's another podcast
I listened to that referred to beforeCovid as the Before Times.
And some would say we're probablystill not back to normal.

(12:28):
or, you know, the before time state.
What kind of effect do you think thatthe Covid had on your study?
I think that'sa really interesting question.
And I'm guessing we could probably talkabout this for a long time and speculate
and probably spin offother studies that we could do.
But I want to point outthat our study used a convenient sample

(12:49):
of students from our program over,from two 2017 to 2022.
So yes, it did include
but wasn't only based on the timeperiod during the pandemic.
We did not break outthe performance of the students
from year to year in our study, mainlybecause we wanted a larger sample group

(13:11):
than what would have been availableon a year to year basis.
Many studies, though,I want to point out, have shown that
the pandemic significantly impactedstudents grades or their GPA
and their scores on standardized testsand of course, their mental health
standardized test scores,including Act, GRE, SAT,

(13:34):
not just the Nocatee exam score,but as a whole,
standardized testscores have declined since pre pandemic.
but interestingly,if you look at the GPAs in high school,
undergrad and grad school, since thenthose have not decreased, nationwide.

(13:54):
so I think we could speculateand I don't want to do too much of
that about why that gap has widenedbetween those things.
But I do want to say that,
I have
seen statisticsshowing a really big gap in the downward
trend on Act scores,specifically among various ethnic groups.

(14:16):
And I'll give you the statisticthat in 2019, the average composite
score on the Act for studentswho were white
was 22.1.
In 2023, it was 21.
So over a four point differencein comparison for for students
who self-reported beingfrom underrepresented or minority groups.

(14:39):
That score went from 17.6 in 2019
to 16.1 in 2023.
So a point and a half, which is seemsnot that big of a deal, but it really is.
Other things are in play,including changes in test formats.
And Scott has had one.
actually since then the SAT has had one.

(15:01):
and even the fact that fewerand fewer programs,
undergrad and grad, are requiringstandardized tests for admissions.
and when I think about, again,how Covid might have impacted
the data that we took in,and even our analysis in this study,

(15:21):
I think it'sworth mentioning the financial challenges
that happened alongside the pandemic.
people being out of work,not being able to go to work
because of restrictionsthere and even recession related things.
it's very costly to take these exams.
The NBC, OT exam costs more than $500.

(15:43):
And, it's a lot of pressurefor students to know that and know
that if they don't pass it,they're going to have to shell out
a lot of money again.
So it's almost a kind of self-defeating
cycle there when they think about that.
So one thing that is unclearis whether our system is lowering the bar

(16:05):
in terms of gradesor GPA or academic requirements,
or if we're adjusting expectationsof learners in any other ways,
and that's affecting their performanceon standardized tests,
or if it's their mental health concernsor financial challenges or what.
But we do see a downward trend overallin standardized test performance

(16:29):
between pre pandemic and after Covid.
A lot of variables there that I thinkthe yeah,
I can see that that will also affectthe outcome of your study.
Yeah. So you know you know what's going onwith these scores.
Your study to show a correlationbetween grit and success on the NBC lot.
But have you looked or have you thoughtabout other correlations.

(16:51):
So grit and GPA or your abilityto do clinical reasoning or, you know,
therapeutic use or self or clientcentered practice, any of those other,
other questions.
So, yeah, although like you said,we did focus solely on grit.
We did look at other variablesfor each of the students.
we did not look at abilityto do clinical reasoning

(17:13):
or the therapeutic use of selfor clients in a practice.
But we didlook at the students demographics.
So we looked at age, race, genderand first generational student
or college student status.
Then we looked at their performanceindicators.
So we looked at pre admission factors.
So we're looking at undergradGPA GRE scores.

(17:36):
And then in addition to thatlooking at the occupational therapy
program performance, looking at thattheir overall GPA from the program
and then looking at their field workexperience.
So the scores that they receiveon those evaluation forms.
And so what we did iswe looked at every single one individually
to see if they were kind of predictorsof this first time passage.

(17:58):
And then we took meaningful combinationsof all different ones.
So we tried them all with grit
to see if there was any predictionor if that combination
would show us anything and really didn'tsee anything in combination.
But what we did seeis that four of our variables
were significant in independentlypredicting that first time passage.

(18:19):
So those four are the GRE quantitativescores, the GRE verbal scores,
the occupational therapy GPA
that overall, thatfirst generational college student status.
So those independently were predictorsof that first time passage.
You mentioned the GRA and,you know, another standardized test

(18:39):
that has historically, demonstrated biasagainst marginalized communities.
Does the fact that there's a correlationbetween success on the gray
and success on the NVQ, what surprisedyou then, and why or why not?
Well, not really.
For me,
the reason is because our findingthat finding is consistent with studies

(19:01):
that have found success
on the National Physical Therapy Boardexam is related to GRE score.
So I was kind of anticipatethat that might be the case.
And and then alsobecause verbal GRE scores assess
the ability to understandand analyze written material,
a student with those strong verbalreasoning skills may have an advantage

(19:25):
in comprehending and answeringthose in baked exam questions.
So it wasn't too surprising.
The finding to me, that was surprising was
that grit was not,associated with the mark.
The success on the first time around.
You also found that firstgeneration students

(19:45):
were less likelyto pass Babcock on their first attempt.
Any thoughts on why?
I think in general, first gencollege students and we'll include ours
in that, tend to have lower scoreson standardized tests than others.
Very general statement,but that statistically bears out.

(20:05):
And and when we look at why that might be,we know that
first generation college studentstend to have less access to high quality
education, even from preschool
on, for a variety of reasons.
academic preparationand even access to resources that support
academic preparation, like having somebodyto help with their homework at home or

(20:31):
the family
being able to pay a tutor, anything like that.
and I want to include in thatwhen we talk about
materials to support preparation
for our students, that's the costly examprep workbooks and practice tests
that cost some money, as well as maybe tutoring services

(20:53):
or courses onhow to succeed on the next exam.
Those are costly and then even adequatespace and time for studying.
I do think that it's been shownthat socioeconomic status
of first generation college studentssometimes results
in less financial supportbeing available from the family,

(21:14):
and as a result,those students have to work more,
part time or sometimes even full time,both while in OT school
and after graduationwhen they are preparing for the next exam.
There's just a vast differencein the amount of time
they have to study and to absorb

(21:37):
and have long term retentionfor some of that material
because of other stressors and factorsgoing on in their lives.
And so like like Doctor Zachary,while I don't think that finding
this particular finding is surprisinggiven the amount of previous research
on performance trends in first generationcollege students in general,

(21:58):
in what it does indicate isthat the trend is consistent or not.
And also it highlights or underscores
the importance of the provision of supportas needed to students
in OT school and post-graduation,
particularly in cases of studentsfrom under-resourced situations.

(22:21):
It seems to me that also
another considerationis the people that are around
those who are trying to preparefor these tests, especially if they're
first generation students, their peers,their parents, their siblings.
They don't understandthe time pressures and
and all the other factorsthat come into preparing for this test.
And so I imaginethere's a lot of pressure on them

(22:41):
maybe taking care of parents or siblingsor other things.
And, and those people around themdon't necessarily understand that
they need this dedicated time to prepare.
Yeah.
There are a whole bunch of thingsthat come into that
that I kind of, in my headcategorize under, access issues.
and that sometimes financial, sometimescultural or other, it may even be that,

(23:04):
you know, they can't affordto live in an apartment or housing
that's closest to campus or a library.
and so their commute is longerand then they spend more gas money,
or they need a more reliable carand, you know,
so on that you can extrapolate outlike that.
There's just a lot more speed
bumps or barriersfor students in general in that category.

(23:25):
As educators,
we're always concernedabout the at risk students
and finding ways to identify themso that we can provide assistance to them.
You mentioned in your studya mechanism for finding them.
Can you talk a little bit about thatand include why it's important?
Yes, and from my perspective,
this is probably the most importantoutcome of the study.

(23:48):
I think the most practical thingthat we can use it for
is, to look at whether or not programsor when these students
are coming into our programor maybe even applying to the program.
OT programs.
Make sure that we have the resourcesat the ready,
available and accessibleto the at risk students who are likely

(24:11):
to benefitfrom additional academic support
from day one in the program.
And so one of those thingsmight be working with the student support
services, whateverthat is called on each individual campus
for the student to develop effective testtaking strategies, maybe even,
to address some test anxietythat the person might have.

(24:33):
and then to enhance time managementor even reading comprehension or process
ING in addition, possibly tutoring
might might need to be offeredat no cost to the students
that are identifiedas at risk in a proactive manner.
during OT

(24:54):
school, and again, as I said before,just during the preparation
time for the next exam, I think would bereally essential to look at doing that.
So last question, what are some unanswered
questions that you still haveafter writing this paper?
Where are the next steps?
I think Doctor Lancasterkind of alluded to this

(25:16):
a little bit earlier when she was talkingabout the stressors that especially
the underrepresentedminorities face in their life
and how that impacts their past,you know, taking that exam, also talking
about the socioeconomic statusand how that impacts them.
We also really, in our study looked atgrit at the beginning of their training.

(25:38):
And so another question we had waswhat about grit
at the end of their training.
So and does that play a role in passageon the NBC not.
We also talked about, you know, is therea relationship between the testing scores
throughout the coursework versusjust that overall GPA?
That one, that one time thing?

(25:59):
And then we also talked about that impactof a formal test prep course.
You know what?
How does that impact the student's
chance of passingthat exam on that first attempt.
And then finally, the other onewas that relationship between the
non-cognitive traits and the performanceon the licensing exams.
So those are the kind of the questionsthat still remain.

(26:20):
And we're really going to focusour, future research on.
I also had
one question that I've thought aboutsince we even discussed this, Amy.
And that is, really our pass rate,first time
pass ratenationally can be as low as 70 to 75%.
Only thatthat many pass it on the first attempt.

(26:41):
So I would also like to to examine
how grit impactsthose students who take it a second
or third time and their ability to pass,because that's when grit
would really come into play, would be,am I going to keep studying?
I'm going to push through thisand be successful?
Yeah,I think that actually would even be more

(27:03):
related to grit than, you know,maybe those that are just natural
good test takers or they already havethe study skills down pat.
I was also and thinking about thisinterview, I was thinking about,
I wonder if there's any sort of connectionbetween the exact testing site
and, you know, or the
time of day and the pass rate,because that could

(27:27):
also be related to anxiety and,and other things too.
Very interesting.
And I look forward to reading those papersand having you back on this,
this podcast again for another interview.
Amy and Stephanie, April,thank you so much for the discussion.
I really enjoyed listening to your studyabout grit and perseverance and

(27:47):
and what we can do to help our studentssucceed.
That is, it for this month'sepisode of Teach well, Learn Well.
Thank you to all four of youfor this great discussion.
I'm Tom, doctor of the Teachingand Learning Center
at Universityof Tennessee Health Science Center.
Until next time. And.