499: Tips for Better Rest with Sleep Expert Lindsay Scola (Part 2)

Episode Transcript
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Lee Burgess (00:02):
Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast.
Today, we are welcoming Lindsay Scola totalk about sleep disorders and what you
need to know to advocate for yourself.
This is Part 2 of a two-part interviewwith Lindsay, so please check
last week's episode to learn moreabout why your sleep is important.
Your Law School Toolbox hosts are AlisonMonahan and Lee Burgess, that's me.

(00:24):
We're here to demystify the lawschool and early legal career
experience, so you'll be the bestlaw student and lawyer you can be.
We're the co-creators of the Law SchoolToolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the
career-related website CareerDicta.
Alison also runs TheGirl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave a review or rating on
your favorite listening app.
And if you have any questions,don't hesitate to reach out to us.
You can reach us via the contactform on LawSchoolToolbox.com,

(00:47):
and we'd love to hear from you.
And with that, let's get started.
Hi, this is Lee from the LawSchool Toolbox, and I'm excited to
have back on the podcast LindsayScola to talk more about sleep.
And today we're going to talk aboutsleep disorders and how you can advocate

(01:07):
for yourself if you think you arenot getting the sleep that you need.
So Lindsay, thanks somuch for joining us again.
I can't wait to jumpinto this conversation.
For those who missed Part 1 aboutsleep, can you just share a quick
tidbit about why you care about sleepand why you're here to talk about it?

Lindsay Scola (01:25):
Yeah.
So, I started having experienceswith feeling excessively sleepy
during the day when I was 16, andmy doctor told me that busy people
are tired, and I was a busy person.
And it took me 19 years to findout I have a sleep disorder.
I was diagnosed with narcolepsy,and then a few years later, I
was diagnosed with Upper AirwayResistance Syndrome, which we're

(01:47):
going to talk a little bit more about.
I had so much time thinking that Iwas slower, not as smart, didn't want
it as much as my peers did, maybe Iwasn't as ambitious as I thought I was.
And I wish that earlier in my career Ihad known what healthy sleep looks like,
what unhealthy sleep looks like, andbeing able to have these conversations

(02:10):
with ourselves and our friends andour family, that we can let each other
know that there's help out there.

Yeah.
So, we're going to dive into the worldof sleep disorders, and I'll be honest,
maybe I've heard of narcolepsy, althoughI don't know that much about it at all.
And I know about sleep apnea,because that's what people
seem to be talking about.
But other than that, I canhonestly say, I don't know that
I know other sleep disorders.
So, what are even this realm ofdisorders that we're talking about?

So, there're 80 sleep disorders.
There are a lot of sleep disorders,yeah, and at least one in five
of us has a sleep disorder.
So, there are some that areextraordinarily rare, that
are more on the rare side.
Narcolepsy - what I have - isone in 2,000 people.
But something like sleepapnea is one in five people.
You probably know someone inyour life with sleep apnea, if
you're not somebody yourself.

(02:58):
So, these are way more common thanwe realize, and way more common
than something like migraines,which we talk about all the time
and know people that have it.
So, it's just newer for us to beable to have these conversations.
And one of the things that wetalked about on the last podcast
is that general practitionershave very little sleep education.
So, your doctor that you're discussingthings going on in your life with

(03:18):
probably isn't adept at identifying thisor knowing where to go with it next.
And so, I'm going to talk through whatsome of these symptoms are and know that
sleep specialists are a real thing, andthat they're the linchpin in being able
to get a diagnosis and get treatmentfor sleep disorders across the board.

Okay.
So, if you're listening to this andyou're like, "Do I have a sleep disorder?
Do I need to talk to somebody aboutthis?", what do you think are some
of the signs that it's time to have aconversation with medical providers or to
find a sleep expert to talk about this?

First, if you are feeling excessively sleepy during the day.
If you are waking up feeling like youhaven't gone to sleep, or if you're
being hit by moments where "I can'tkeep my eyes open no matter how hard
I try" - this is something called"excessive daytime sleepiness" and it's a
hallmark of a lot of disorders out there.
I'm sure everybody here knowssomebody who snores, or sleeps

(04:13):
next to somebody who snores, oris somebody who snores themselves.
Snoring is not normal.
Now, there can be multiple reasons whyyou snore that have something to do
with the architecture of your face.
Sleep apnea is one ofthe more common reasons.
And we have this sort of image in ourheads that people with sleep apnea
is like an overweight middle aged guywith a big round neck and a square jaw.

(04:38):
That's not the case.
That person might be more prone to sleepapnea, but sleep apnea has a lot more to
do with the structure inside our mouthand our throat and our jaw that causes
it, that it actually isn't always thecase of what we look like on the outside.
I have a very tall, skinnysister, who has sleep apnea.

(04:59):
And so, it's not what we've sortof been conditioned to look for.
So, if you're somebody who's feelingexcessively sleepy during the day, if
you're waking up multiple times a nightto use the bathroom - this could be a
sign of a sleep disorder, potentiallysleep apnea, because what's happening when
you're having sleep apnea is that multipletimes an hour, you can't get enough air.

(05:19):
And so, your brain is waking upyour body and saying to breathe.
You might physically wake up from that.
You might not mentally wakeup from that, but your body
and your brain are waking up.
We sleep in 90-minute cycles.
It gives us enough light sleep,deep sleep, and REM sleep.
And all of those play an importantpart for the physiological
processes that our body needs.
But if you imagine that you're wakingup multiple times an hour, you're not

(05:42):
getting that complete sleep cycle.
So, what's the first thing that happenswhen you wake up in the morning?
Most of us need to use the bathroom.
So your brain and your body is waking upand it says it's time to use the bathroom.
So if you're going to the bathroomthree times a night, this could be a
sign that something else is happening.
If you're waking up with a headacheevery morning or a dry throat, you might
not know that you snore, you might notknow that you're gasping yourself awake.

(06:03):
Those could be symptoms thatsomething else is going on.
As I mentioned, I have something calledUpper Airway Resistance Syndrome,
which is kind of like a mild sleepapnea, where there's an issue with the
construction of my jaw, that my tongueis actually too big for my mouth.
Now, I talk all the time, so my husbandhad a field day with that diagnosis.
And so, I was waking up every daywith a headache and a sore throat, and

(06:27):
I thought it was bad allergies, butreally it was not getting enough oxygen.
And so, I wear a very simpleoral appliance that pulls my
bottom jaw forward, and now Idon't have that problem anymore.

Yeah.
I think that's maybe one of theinteresting things about sleep disorders.
I love how I'm talking about it nowthat I listed off the, what, like two or
three that I know, but I'm like, "Let meshare my wisdom." But the folks that I
do know in my life that have struggledwith sleep disorders is, sometimes
there are these little fixes, becauseI think that a lot of times folks are
intimidated to go down this path becausethey don't want to have to wear a machine

(07:02):
to sleep or they don't want to have tohave really intensive interventions.
But sometimes there aresimple interventions.
But knowledge is power,that's just the reality.

Knowledge is power.
I have to say, narcolepsy is somethingthat doesn't have a novel treatment, in
the same way that a diabetic takes insulinto make up for something that's missing.
We don't have that fornarcolepsy at this moment.
So I take medications that treatcertain symptoms that I have.
So there are days that I have baddays, but I have to say I am so much
more happy and functioning even onthose days than I was prior to that,

(07:33):
because I know what's happening, Iknow what's going on in my brain.
And yes, I know some people don't wantto go down the route of sleep apnea
because they don't want to wear a CPAP.
But once you start wearing that CPAP,your risk of hypertension goes down, your
risk of insulin resistance goes down,so you're actually protecting your heart
and your body in incredible long-termways than you would if you continue to

(07:57):
go on with that undiagnosed sleep apnea.
So you're going to be cognitivelybetter because you're getting
a full amount of sleep.
You're going to be better in yourheart and your lungs, and so it's a
short-term consequence of getting thatinformation for really long-term results.
I mean, we've seen that somebody who getsdiagnosed with sleep apnea, it's actually

(08:18):
sort of a lower cost treatment for them.
But then somebody who doesn't getdiagnosed with sleep apnea that has it
and continues on, they could be incurringlike $20,000 extra a year in other
medical costs because of all of thesecomorbidities that end up stacking up
because they haven't gotten this treated.
And so, I always tell people that areannoyed that their partner is snoring

(08:40):
that this is actually a cause for concern.
And you love that person thatyou're choosing to share a
bed with, at least I hope so.
It's the reason that you started sharinga bed with them in the first place,
is that you want them to be the best,healthiest version of themselves.
And the sound of a CPAP next to youis much better than the sound of
somebody snoring you into the next room.

Yeah, for sure.
So, you're concerned, you're tired,maybe the extra stress of a job
change, being in something like lawschool, is kind of making everything
more pronounced than it used to be.
So, what do you do next?
You're like, "Cool, this soundslike me. I'm tired, I am not

(09:20):
functioning well. Now what do I do?"

First, write everything down.
So, for something like narcolepsy,there're five distinct symptoms, which as
someone who did not know anything aboutsleep in my wildest dreams wouldn't have
known that some of them were symptomsto start with, and definitely would not
have known that they were connected.
So in narcolepsy we talked aboutthe excessive daytime sleepiness.
Another symptom is fractured sleep.
You can fall asleep okay,but you can't stay asleep.

(09:44):
So, as somebody who couldsleep all the time, I thought
I was a really great sleeper.
I was just so extraordinarily tiredbecause I don't get deep sleep, that my
body could sleep all the time because itwasn't getting the thing that it needed.
There is something called "hypnagogichallucination", and that's a
hallucination as you're fallingasleep or as you're waking up.

(10:04):
So it's a sort of blending ofreality with an intense dream state
on either side of that sleep cycle.
These can be audio, visual, orsensory, or they can be all three.
So, most of my hallucinationsare audio and they happen
at the end of a sleep cycle.
So, for most of my life, I havebeen hearing things that weren't
there, and they're like littleblips, so I kind of ignored it,

(10:26):
thought it was part of a dream.
I've heard people speaking inRussian in the hallway that
weren't there, construction in thebackyard at like 3:00 o'clock in
the morning that wasn't happening.
Sometimes it sounds like a crashof something, but nothing happened.
One time the dog was barking in myhallucination, and I was sleeping, of
course without my contacts, and there waslike a stack of clothes next to the door.
And so I'm asking the dog if he needsto go out, who's sleeping on the floor

(10:50):
next to me and is looking at me like, "Idon't know what you're talking about."
So, there were these little things,that I didn't know that's not normal.
Now, every once in a while I was havingthese ones where it was audio, visual, and
sensory, and something scary would happenand I couldn't move and I couldn't breathe
and I couldn't scream, and that's becausesleep paralysis can also be a symptom.

(11:10):
That's because when you're in REMsleep, your body paralyzes itself
so you don't act out your dream.
I wasn't able to act out this thingthat I needed to do that was happening
with this thing because I was in thissort of mix in between these worlds.
I never would have gone to the doctorand said, "I'm having hallucinations,

(11:31):
I'm having sleep paralysis, I'm havingfractured sleep, I'm having excessive
daytime sleepiness." But if I had startedwriting down all of the things that were
happening in my life, this could havebeen an easier presentation to someone.
And then the last symptom whichhappens for some people with
narcolepsy, but not everybody,is something called "cataplexy".
And this is a loss of muscle tonewhen you experience a strong emotion.

(11:51):
So this could be some peoplefalling over like a rag doll, or
it could be something really minor.
I tend to drop my phone when I laugh,and for years I told people, "Don't make
me laugh, I'll drop my phone." Shouldhave been like a signal to everybody
that's not a normal thing to say.
And into my diagnosis, I was stilltelling people, "Don't make me laugh,
I'll drop my phone." Not completelyrecognizing that was cataplexy.

(12:12):
Sometimes if I'm feeling really exposedin a conversation or just sort of out of
my depth, my lip will droop a little bit.
It's not always noticeableto everyone, but I feel it.
I get a lot of cataplexy when I'm skiing.
I'm a moderate skier who'safraid of moderate hills.
So, once it gets steeper, I startfeeling like there's like warm champagne
coming up my hands into my elbows, andit gets really hard to hold my poles.

(12:35):
So if there's anything happening that'snot feeling normal, start writing
that down, so that you can sort ofpresent a full picture of what's
happening for you, that you mightnot know things that fit together.
So you could be someone who doesn't knowthat you snore because you don't share
a bed with somebody or you sleep nextto someone who's a really deep sleeper.
But you're waking up a lot to usethe restroom and you're waking up

(12:57):
with a headache and you're waking upwith a sore throat - it's definitely
time to explore sleep apnea.
And after you've written all thesethings down, your general practitioner
is likely not going to know whatto do with all of them, so you
need to see a sleep specialist.
The general practitioner can helpyou at the start of your journey,
but seeing a sleep specialistis extraordinarily important.

Yeah.
And something you mentioned on the lastpodcast that I think it's important to
raise as well, is that there's a lotof correlation between sleep disorders
and some other things going on withfolks that are very common and we
talk about all the time, like ADHD.
And so, if you, let's say, are someonewith some sort of attention deficit

(13:41):
disorder, should you just go aheadand start tracking some of this stuff,
because the likelihood is that theremay be something happening in parallel?

Yeah.
As someone with ADHD myself, there's avague narrative out there that people
with ADHD are just crappy sleepers.
And as we said in the lastpodcast, you wouldn't tell someone
with asthma that they're justgoing to be a s*itty breather.
So, there is some research out there thatshows us that as many as 80% of people
with ADHD also have a sleep disorder.
This could be chronic insomnia,this could be sleep apnea, restless

(14:09):
leg syndrome, narcolepsy, there'redifferent circadian rhythm disorders.
And so, if you are someone who alreadyknows you have ADHD, you're struggling
with your sleep and you think this issomething beyond maybe something going on
with your stimulants, this is somethingthat you should absolutely be pursuing.
And writing everything downis so super helpful, because
maybe it's not a sleep disorder.
Maybe there's something going onthat's a hormonal imbalance, maybe

(14:30):
it's something else, but don't justassume "I've been told that I'm a
bad sleeper" and that's how you'resupposed to live the rest of your life.
And as an advocate for yourself, youknow your body better than any other
person is ever going to know your body.
And so, while you might not be able toidentify this as what's happening to your
body, you know that something is feelingnot right, and 100% always trust that gut,

(14:54):
wherever you are, whatever you're doing.

Yeah.
So you go to your GP... And remember,for most people who are in school,
there's a student health center.
You usually have access to medicalcare while you're in school.
And so, it could be a good timeto start exploring this, because
also, you can't think and memorizethings when you're not sleeping.
So, you've got your journal, you'relike, "I've got all this stuff

(15:17):
going on, I'm exhausted all thetime." And then they say, "Cool.
Take melatonin." What do you do ifyou're not getting the answers you want?
How do you advocate for yourselfto get additional support?

Well, some insurance doesn't need a referral
to see a sleep specialist.
So you could say, "I think there'ssomething going on with my sleep,
I'm going to see a sleep specialist."And you can also demand from your
GP that you want to see a sleepspecialist and you need that referral.
And if they won't doit, go to somebody else.
What's the worst thingthat's going to happen?
You go to a sleep specialist and thesleep specialist says, "I don't think

(15:53):
this is your sleep." You're way betteroff actually getting to that person and
actually asking the questions of theperson who's more likely going to know.
The last thing that you want to do isdiagnose yourself before you see a doctor.

Dr. Google, everybody's best friend.

Everybody's best friend.
And I am not saying thisbecause I don't do it.
I mean,

we've all Dr. Googled every now and then, let's be honest.

We have all Dr. Googled.
Yes, no, I definitely diagnosedmyself with dengue fever one time.
I did not have dengue fever.
I've come up with some really bizarrethings and no matter what I do on WebMD,
I'm always going to get to ear cancer.
But we've sort of conditioned ourselvesto be an advocate, especially when we're
not feeling listened to, that we haveto go in and say, "I have this thing,

(16:35):
treat me for this thing." And which isvery easy for a doctor to come back and
say, "No, you don't have that thing."And it doesn't become an improv situation
where it's like, "No, you don't havethat thing, but let's figure out what
you have." But it's a lot harder for themto refuse you in that conversation, when
you're like, "I have this going on, thisgoing on, this going on, this going on.
Figure out what it is." That's open-ended;it's not a "yes or no" situation for them.

(16:58):
And as someone who has diagnosed myselfwith the wrong thing multiple times,
because I did miss that day at medschool, this is what I wish that I had
been able to figure out earlier in mydiagnosis journey, is I'm much better
off coming in and saying, "These are thethings going on." And especially writing
it down before I get there, because wehave all been in that situation where
we're feeling absolutely miserable, andwe get to the doctor, and the doctor's
like, "How are you feeling?", andwe're like, "Fine." And that could be

(17:22):
like, "Eh, I'm a little okay" or, "Icompletely forgot what I was going to
ask you" or, "I'm feeling absolutelymiserable", but that's the answer we
came up with, because they're rushed,they come in the room, you're ready to
go, you've got things to talk about,and then you're like completely blank.
It's so much better foreverybody if you've got that
written down ahead of time.
Even if you haven't had the timeto go through and make an actual
journal for what's going on everyday, write down the things that are

(17:42):
taking you there in the first place.
And if that's just, "I feelextraordinarily tired every
day" - you shouldn't feelextraordinarily tired every day.
Let's go figure out what's going on.

Yeah.
I am definitely one of those people whogets anxious going to the doctor, and so
I send them an email beforehand, beinglike, "This is what I want to talk about."
That's

fantastic!
What great idea.

I worry that I'm going to get there and what if I don't remember
to get out my phone or have my list?
But I am my most eloquent selfbefore I'm going to go, right?
And so, I just sent an email and I'mlike, "These are the things I want to talk
about. I hope you can make sure that wehit all of them today." And then sometimes
I think that's great, because thenthey're ready to talk about those things.
So, if I'm super tired and I'mfeeling like garbage and I don't

(18:27):
know what to do, then maybe they'regoing to be in a better headspace
about what to do with that problem.
It's giving them a heads up, whichdepending on your medical professional and
if you have a relationship with them, butif you send that email, they'll usually
open it in the appointment with you.
And if you remind them that you did it, ifthey're like, "How are you doing?", you're
like, "I sent you an email", they're like,"Oh, let me go get that." And then they
pull it up and they're like, "Oh, let'sgo through these questions that you had."

(18:49):
I mean, it's actually pretty helpful.

Don't let anybody tell you how you should or should not be feeling.
I know a lot of people who got diagnosedwith a sleep disorder while they
were in med school, or law school, orsome other pressure cooker situation.
It's very easy for doctors to come backand be like, "Well, you work in a pressure
cooker situation, of course you'retired." Back in my residency I was pulling
42-hour shifts and I was super tired.

(19:13):
And we can go into a wholeother conversation whether
that's healthy or not.
But you know how you feel.
And I think for too long for me,I was like, "Everybody around me
is tired, they're all saying thatthey're tired." Being tired is a
badge of honor, especially whenyou work in a pressure cooker.
The number of hours you put in isalways trumping the quality of the
hours you put in, because people aremeasuring themselves up against that.

(19:35):
But I don't know what your "tired" is.
You don't know what my "tired" is.
And so, how all of us are goingto describe feeling tired is
going to be completely different.
Of course, if you are staying up allnight to memorize things and not going
to sleep and trying to work crazyhours, you are going to be tired.
Are you going to be feeling soexcessively sleepy that you have

(19:55):
this voice in your head saying, "If Idon't go to sleep, I'm going to die"?
Probably not.
So, it's really important to continueto listen to that voice and if someone
starts telling you, "Oh, of course,everybody's tired" that's not an
acceptable answer in that moment,and you are allowed to ask for more.

Yeah.
Oh, I used to study for my law schoolexams at the UCSF medical school
library, because it's beautiful andhas this beautiful view with the
Golden Gate Bridge and over the city.
And I would study in there and then allthe medical students would come sleep
in the library in the middle of the day.
And I remember asking someone once,"What's everyone doing?" They're like,
"We have a break." They looked at melike I was the cuckoo one, when I'm

(20:37):
like, "What is going on?" And they'relike, "It's totally normal to come
sleep in the middle of the day, becausewe don't get enough sleep." I'm like,
"I don't know that that's normal.
I'm just not sure that's normal."

But if you are in a situation where you are being asked
to work a lot of hours or do a lot ofthings, and catching up at sleep at
different times is the best opportunityyou have - that is totally okay.

Yeah.
So maybe they were the wiser.
Maybe I should have alsobeen sleeping in the library.
I don't know.

If you're a super creative person who feels like you're getting
your best, most creative work done aftermidnight, but you have to wake up at 7:00
AM to function for something, maybe you'resleeping in two chunks during the day.
Biologically, we actually did that.
Up until the Industrial Revolution,people actually slept in two sleeps.
So they would go to sleep when the sunwent down, they'd wake up, they'd spend

(21:25):
a couple of hours with their family, orknitting, or smoking a pipe, or whatever
people did before they had electricity.
And then they would go back to sleep,and they'd sleep until the sun came up.
And then we got light inside,we got more rigid work hours,
and that sort of went away.
But our bodies sort of never forgot that.
There are a lot of peoplewho wake up at 3:00 AM and it
feels really normal for them.
Now, I've watched a lot of horrorfilms, so when this was happening

(21:45):
for me, I was like, "Of course I'mhaunted, this is the witching hour."
When is some little demon going topeek out from under my dresser doors?
But if you're somebody who's wakingup in the middle of the night and you
feel like your brain's getting superactivated, and you feel like you need to
do an hour or two of work and go back tosleep, and you find a way to make that
work in your life - that's totally okay.

Yeah.
I think the other thing, given thatI'm a bit past my law school years now,
my years of beginning my adulthood,is that we can acclimate to being
in these situations where we're in aconstant state of sleep deprivation.
I had some of thoseperiods when I was working.

(22:24):
I definitely had those periods whenI had small children, because my
children just... They sleep now,but boy, there were some dark times.
That's a whole another podcast,about those dark times.
But I think you can acclimate toit, but that doesn't mean that it's
not still hard for you, and thatincremental gains can be so much better.

(22:44):
So I think when we're talking about apopulation of folks like law students
and lawyers, who we all like tocontrol everything, we like things
to be perfect, generally speaking,we're all high performers, that it
can be hard to say, "Well, if I justdo a couple of these things, it might
get incrementally better." And thatincrementally better is actually worth
fighting for, and I think that itcan feel like such an all or nothing.

(23:05):
It's like, if you're sitting here andyou're like, "Yeah, I think I need to be
sleeping more, I don't feel great, I'mnot sure when I'm going to get to go to
the doctor, maybe I'll start taking notesabout these things." But even just writing
things down, it's going to at leasthighlight for you maybe these areas where
you could make some simple changes, right?
Maybe you become more awareof your circadian rhythm or
you get blackout curtains atTarget or whatever it might be.

(23:28):
There can be these tiny things, butthat 3% more sleep is still going to be
better than staying stuck where you are.

Absolutely.
And I will be the first to admit beforemy narcolepsy diagnosis, I kept having
all these doctors talk to me aboutsleep hygiene, and it felt like this
list that I had to check everythingoff and if I didn't, I was failing, and
so I might as well not do it at all.
And so I had terrible sleep hygiene.
There were a lot of things that I didthat were not healthy for my sleep.
I slept with the TV on at afull volume all night long.

(23:57):
I would be in my bed, forcing myselfto try and go to sleep when I was awake.
I definitely wasn't thinking aboutwhen I was consuming food and alcohol.
You know when you're younger, youthink that you can do a full day of
work, and then go out with friendsand have as many drinks as everybody
feels is necessary, go to sleepand wake up and do it the next day.

(24:18):
Some of us, when we hit our 40s, if youhave more than one drink, you're giving
up the next day, so we're past that.
But a glass of wine mightmake you fall asleep easier.
It's definitely going to mess with yoursleep structure throughout the night.
If I had understood, which I do now,the incremental pieces that I could
do to help myself, I definitely wouldnot have kept myself from getting

(24:40):
narcolepsy, but I would have had a lotmore knowledge about what was going on and
I could have made bad situations better.
And you might think that I'mstruggling with a sleep disorder,
because I'm feeling like I cannotbe awake after 9:30 at night.
But you're somebody who's naturallywaking up every day at 5:00 AM.
There're only so many hours in a daythat your body is supposed to be awake.

(25:02):
And so you might actually be somebody whois a serious morning person and you're not
going to hit those big productive times.
And just tapping into your naturalrhythm is going to make you a much
more functional, happy person.
And there might not bedisordered sleep there.
Actually paying attention to our sleepmight be the thing that you need to feel

(25:22):
better, especially if you are someone whoonly has certain periods where you can be
asleep because of a crazy schedule, andyou're a Type A personality, which I'm
guessing most people listening to thisare, because you chose this profession.
You cannot muscle yourself to sleep.
So, if you are laying there going,"Oh my God, I have to go to sleep
now", you're not going to go to sleep.
It's like the opposite of what'sgoing to help you go to sleep.

(25:44):
And so, having these momentswhere you can give yourself a
little bit of grace as well.
Get up and do something else.
Get tired again, come back to sleep.
If you are someone who is strugglingwith your sleep, don't sit in
your bed all night on your laptop.
That one used to drive me crazybecause I had a doctor that was like,
"All of your problems are going togo away if you stop working on your
laptop in bed", which we can all sayis crazy now because I had narcolepsy.

(26:08):
But if you are somebody who has a hardtime falling asleep and you're sitting
up on your laptop in bed, you're nottelling yourself this is a place of rest.
And so, what are the things that I can doto get my brain to start turning off, to
start getting excited about going to bed?
I use essential oils at night.
I've got my scent that makes me like,"Oh, it's sleepy time." I do that.

(26:28):
I listen to noise thathelps me fall asleep.
So, what is that thing that youcan be doing that helps you?
And then again, you'rewriting all this stuff down.

Yeah.
And I think it's interestingbecause as a parent, we talk about
this stuff with kids all the time.
What's your bedtime routine?
What time do you start going to bed?
Like, first, they take a bath, andthen they brush their teeth, and
then we read together, they tella story, you turn on the white
noise machine, they crawl into bed.
They almost do it the sameexact time every night.
We do all of this for small children,because we're like, "Well, they need those

(27:00):
signs that it's time to go to sleep."And then we become adults, and we're
like, "I don't need any of that stuff.
I brush my teeth and I shouldjust be able to walk in and lay
my head down and be done with it."

Well, especially if we have ADHD.
We know intellectually, "I shouldbrush my teeth so my teeth don't
fall out of my head", but I'venever had a routine in my life.
I was talking to my therapist the otherday and I was like, "I just feel like
I'm kind of off my routine." And thenI started laughing hysterically, as
though I've actually ever had a routine.
I'm just not someonethat naturally does that.
But there are things that our bodydoes crave that make it better.

(27:30):
So, you might not be that person thathas a 10-step facial routine before you
go to bed, but you can do some thingsthat can help your brain calm down and
wind down and get ready to go to sleep.

Yeah.
And I think that working late onmy laptop, even if I'm not doing
it in bed, even if I'm doing it onthe couch, it's just disastrous.
It is not a good time for me after8:30 to have that laptop open.
Nothing good happens, basically.
Maybe I get something done, butthat is just not what I need.
I need to connect with mypartner, watch something silly

(28:03):
on TV, do whatever else there is.
But I've just learnedthat that is not good.
I can't shut the laptop and go to bed.
That's just not how my brain works.
And there is freedom within startingto learn these things by yourself.
Now my business partner,Alison, she's a night owl.
She will be texting me becauseshe's working on something at 10:00
o'clock at night, and I'm like, "Iam going to bed. I will talk to you

(28:23):
later. You can send me messages,I'll read them when I get up at 6:30."

And she's probably not functioning at 6:30.

No, she's got my texts on silent at 6:30, and
there's just an awareness of it.
And I think the power of tracking,as we've talked about, of just
writing things down and lookingfor patterns can be so powerful.
But I often think in life, we haveto look at what we say young people
need when we're talking about, theyshould have some sort of routine,
they should have a reliable schedule.

(28:49):
One of the things with my kids is,if I have to wake them up before
school, that's concerning to me.
That means that they're not going tosleep at their usual time, because
they have this long window to sleep.
I never talk about stufflike that for myself.
It takes a while to be like, "What?Should I be waking up on my own?"
And I do at this point in my life.
I don't sleep with alarms.

But also your kids are getting older, and they are going to
get to a place where they're going toneed a little bit more sleep in the
morning than they probably have time for.
So, having to wake them up isnot totally a cause for concern.

It's totally not a cause for concern.
It's more just when it becomes an outlier.
It's not like we're movingthat way, but if every day I'm
dragging them out of their room,they're telling me they're tired.
I'm like, "Well, then we're not goingto bed at our usual window" or whatever.
But also there're growth spurtsand all these reasons why.
But if it happens too much,then something has shifted.
And I think that we just don't oftenreflect on our own rhythms like that,

(29:40):
like we do of other folks in our lives.

Yeah.
And I have to say I've gotten much betterat listening to my brain, like "I'm tired,
put the phone down." Because I am someonewho likes to be on my phone before bed.
And if you found a way to workwith that, that's totally okay.
If you are somebody who I was for a longtime, could not put the phone down or felt
like I had to be checking every email thatcame in, or you've been in a world where
that's a thing, get an old fashioned alarmclock and put the phone someplace else.

(30:06):
Take that away from yourself if youfeel like you cannot put the phone down.
But on the reverse of that, if you'resomeone who's put the phone down and
all of a sudden, especially as a personwith ADHD, you have this burning desire
to find out if penguins have knees pickthe phone up and look it up, and put
the phone back down and go to sleep.

Okay, do penguins have knees?
I They do.
They do?

They do have knees.

I was like, "I've never thought about that before."

Well, because that's where my ADHD brain goes when it's
time to do something like sleep.
It's like, "Oh, how deep are the riversaround America?" And I'm on a late-night
hyper focus, rabbit hole chase on this.
I'm the queen of randomthoughts at these moments.
But I had that question, I looked it up,I put the phone down, and I went to sleep.
I had a burning desire onenight to see if I was washing my

(30:51):
underwear in the most hygienic way.
Why was this keeping me up?
I can't tell you.
You can add vinegar, if anybodyat home is wondering about this.

I was like, "I don't know the answer to that either!" Oh my gosh,
I feel like there's another podcastabout things that you've looked up
at night that I'm supposed to know.

100%.
I feel like I could havemy own trivia show on this.
But by looking these things up and notjust letting my brain stew on this,
it actually allows me to get to sleep.
So, don't be so hard on yourself thatit was like, "I put the phone down, I
can't look at the phone again." Now,don't have this burning desire to
find out if penguins have knees, andthen you need to look at what every
ex-boyfriend is doing in their liferight now for the next three hours.

(31:25):
That's not an effectiveuse of that sleep time.
But if you give yourself that onemoment to get the thing off your brain
and go to sleep, that's totally okay.

Yeah.
I also know other people who will leavea pad of paper next to their bed, where
they'll just write down stuff that popsinto their head, or to-do list items.
Give them a place to go, give thema place to live, and then you don't
have to continue to stew on them.

Absolutely.
Sometimes I wake up... One of thesuperpowers of narcolepsy is that I
have these vivid, crazy dreams that Ihave a much better chance of remembering
than other people, but I might notremember them later as the day goes on.
And so, I have a littlenotebook in my nightstand that
that's where my stuff goes.
And a lot of my creative writing hascome from these like dream notes.
So, if you've got a place todo that where you can then go

(32:07):
back to sleep, that's great.

Is it Guillermo del Toro who does the very intense visual movies, that
some of them are based off his dreams?
Yes, I think that's who that is.
And I'm always like, "Wow,those are some dreams, man."

Right?
Yeah.
I go back and forth between havingthese super creative dreams or then
having incredibly vivid, lucid dreamswhere I'm reading email and making
tea during the day, like I'm justreliving what I did during the day.

That sounds really nice.
I had some weird dreams last night andI wish I would have been making tea.

I'm just saying, as someone who has these really vivid
dreams, it sort of feels like a wastedopportunity to just be reliving my day.
Just all I'm saying.

Yeah, I know.
On that note, we should all try and dreamabout making tea and doing calm things.
To close it all up, if you've beenlistening to this podcast and you're
like, "Uh-oh, I think that maybe I needto spend some time on these issues"
where should somebody start advocatingfor themselves around getting help?

So, most people are going to have to start with your general
practitioner, because your insuranceprobably requires that you see them
before you see a sleep specialist.
Ask for a referral to a sleepspecialist, because it might not
be the first thing that they offer.
If they say "no", demand it or gosee a different general practitioner.
You can find a lot ofgreat resources online.
There's an awesome organization that Iwork with called Project Sleep, where they

(33:28):
have every major sleep disorder on there.
There're resource sheets,there's a helpline.
So you could be somebody that'slike, "Something's going on with my
sleep. I don't know where to go. Idon't know who to ask." Get on, go to
Project Sleep, go to their helplinepage, and you'll be able to talk to
someone and get some next steps for it.

Amazing.
Well, Lindsay, if people want to knowmore about what you do and your research
in talking about this, where do they go?

LindsayScola.com.
You can follow me onLinkedIn or Instagram.
And I talk about a lot of thisstuff and want to stay in touch.

Amazing.
Well, thank you so much for your time.
I hope you'll come back and talkabout sleep more, because I feel like
there's a lot to talk about here,not just if penguins have knees.
I still want to do the episode on all thethings that you've learned from looking
things up in the middle of the night.
So, we'll just put a pinon that for the future.

There you go.

Alright.
Thanks so much.

Thank you.

If you enjoyed this episode of the Law School Toolbox podcast, please
take a second to leave a review andrating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it.
And be sure to subscribeso you don't miss anything.
If you have any questions orcomments, please don't hesitate
to reach out to myself or Alisonat lee@lawschooltoolbox.com or
alison@lawschooltoolbox.com.
Or you can always contactus via our website contact

(34:46):
form at LawSchoolToolbox.com.
Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!

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