Backcountry Bulls and Cougars with Joe Lewis

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Ever thought about turning an entire elk into jerky so the pack out would be easier? Joe Lewis did that. Ever wondered how to hunt cougars without dogs? Joe Lewis regularly succeeds. This guy is a no nonsense, tough as nails unconventional backcountry hunter. Check it out. 



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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
these are stories of outdoor adventure and expert
advice from folks with callousedhands.
I'm james nash and this is thesix ranch podcast, so I was
trying to scratch out some mathon how light you can get a bull

(00:32):
elk.
Yeah, but there are definitelytimes in uh and I think just
about any successful elk hunterslife where they they think, man
, these things are awfully heavyyou ever run into anything like
that.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
That's an issue.
That's an issue for sure.
Yep, I mean uh, especiallyhunting out in the wilderness.
You know that's, that's alwayson your mind.
You know you're always at thelimit of.
You know where, where's thegood hunting and where's my
maximum amount of uh.
You know I don't know where'syour line on how much effort you
want to put in to get thisthing out of here.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Sure, yeah, and you are a guy who is not only
capable of, but puts out more,more physical effort than
anybody.
I know, yeah, and you know Ithink you've been like that for
a very long time.
You know I remember seeingseeing pictures of you hunting

(01:29):
in the back country 10 years agoin shoes that looked like they
needed to be thrown away athousand miles earlier.
And you know, living off verylittle water, going very
lightweight, and you knowstaying out for long periods of
time and then putting a lot ofmovement on.
So where do you personally drawthat line with elk?

Speaker 2 (01:56):
It depends, depends on the season, depends on the
terrain.
You know if you're going, youknow if you can hunt on the
front side of a ridge, you know,versus the back side where
you're gonna have to pack themuphill right, you know that
changes it um, a lot of things,you know.
Sometimes, you know you try notto think about it and you just

(02:17):
go where the elk are and and youjust deal with a problem later.
And you know if you think aboutit too much you won't do it
yeah so what happened this year?
this year, um, I had some bigplans.
I bought some pat goats and hadhigh hopes for them, and so I

(02:38):
didn't have a whole lot of timeto get them in shape for the
year, and so I learned my lessonon that and so I went out for
archery archery season in oregonthis year and, um, you know, we
took them out, I think.
Uh, it was almost opening likesecond day into the season or
something, and uh, it's prettyhot.
So I kind of give them that,you know it was.
They were kind of dragging onthe way in and it's like, oh

(03:00):
well, they'll pull through it.
And and they didn't, you know,they were laying down on a trail
and they were panting.
And yeah, it wasn't just, youknow, after two and a half miles
of that, we just kind of gaveup.
We were just like, well, let'sjust camp here and call it good,
and I'll just, you know, I'lljust have to hike farther every
day from camp.
And I was there with my wifeand my new kid, my young or my

(03:20):
one-year-old son was in there.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, new kid.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, I stumble a lot , Yep so.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
No, I think it's new to me.
It's a good way to say it.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Those are the right words.
Yeah, so that hunt went prettygood, other than the goats.
Luckily, they stopped at twoand a half miles.
There was elk there, so we'resuccessful and we're able to
make that hunt work.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
But let's talk about goats for a little bit.
Yeah, Because I think that theyare a very legitimate pack
animal, but they require workthroughout the whole year.
Yes, so you know you had somelessons learned there.
Talk me through that a littlebit and like what it takes to be

(04:04):
able to use goats as packanimals I don't know yet.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, I'm learning, you know, I think I think they
have a lot of potential.
I see some people that are thatare doing really well with the
pack goats and you know, if yougo through all the pros and cons
of all the different packanimals you know, for for the
country that I hunt, I thinkthey're, they have the potential
to do the best.
Yeah, you know, but you stillneed really good goats and they
need to be in good shape and andall of that.

(04:29):
Um, so, um.
So I'm working towards thatgoal.
You know I was hoping to comeright out of the gate the first
year with a couple goats andpull it off, but I didn't.
Um but um.
But yeah, I've got.
Um, I'm getting some new packgoats, better genetics this year
, but that's that'll be knowreally be able to pack with
those new goats for four years.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Four years.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, it's a long-term, long game.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
So how old will these ones be that you're getting?
They'll be.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
I don't know a couple weeks old.
Okay, yeah, I'm getting themreally young.
They're babies, yeah babies.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
That'll be fun.
You'll develop a lot ofrelationships with those animals
over the next four years.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Exactly, and I think that'll be a big game changer.
The goats I got, they'realready four years old.
I've got three goats.
One of them is just 220-pound,just lazy big goat.
That's why they got rid of him.
I'm like, oh, he looks great,he's big goat, and he's just.

(05:31):
That's why they got rid of him.
You know, I'm like, oh, helooks great, he's big and
whatever, and but he's useless.
So then I've got two othergoats that that are a little on
the smaller side and, um, they,they, they work, they come back
but they don't work very hard tofollow me because I think they
just haven't.
We don't have that bond that wewere with the the new baby.
So, yeah, I think that'll go alot better, raising them
ourselves, and then they'll wantto work hard.
Then it'll be easier to getthem in shape because they
actually go out and work themhard before they quit every day.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
What, uh, what do you expect their capabilities to be
once they're mature?

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well, with uh, you know, with the goats, it sounds
like it's like 25% of bodyweight.
So if you get a 200 pound goat,you know you can put 50 pounds
on them, okay, yeah, of bodyweight.
So if you get a 200 pound goat,you know you can put 50 pounds
on them, okay, yeah.
So so it's just plenty for me,because my backpack are, you
know, going into a hunts,normally around 40 to 50 pounds,
and so you know, if I can putmost of my gear on a goat on the
way in, that's huge.
If I could take them in emptyand just have them fresh and

(06:19):
ready to haul meat out, I'd behappy.
Yeah, so all right.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
So I've.
I've weighed a pile of elk atthis point, live hanging um,
bone in, bone out, and uh, amature bull in september, at the
beginning of the month, isgoing to be close to 800 pounds.
By the end of the month he'sgoing to be 700 pounds,

(06:46):
potentially less, and then theydon't seem to lose a lot more
body weight after that.
Another thing that I found isthat even if I've got an 800
pound bull on his live weightand when I say live weight I
mean guts in, in hide on hangingthem up to see what they weigh

(07:07):
before we take anything off ofthem and then we weigh them
again as a hanging weight, whatI found is I can take an 800
pound bull and a 600 pound bulland their hanging weights, which
is heads off, hides off, gutsout their hanging weights are
going to be very, very close.
So even if you've got 150 or 200pounds of disparity, that gets

(07:32):
eaten up in organs and skull andhide.
But the actual bone and meatstructure of the animal is
fairly consistent and we seethat end up in the 400s most of
the time.
And then once they're boned outcompletely, then we're ending

(07:53):
up, you know, in the in the mid200s, somewhere as far as boned
out meat on a, on a bull elk.
Now if you're packing out acape or antlers, um you know, a
full skull or skull cap, that'sgoing to be additional weight on
top of that.
But there's a pile of weightthere, so did you get a bull

(08:14):
here during archery season?

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, I got one during archery season and then I
got one in my later hunt inIdaho.
Yeah, but yeah it's a lot ofweight.
I think it was closer to like200 pounds.
Um, it just depended on youknow the shot placement too.
You know, like, if youaccidentally hit a shoulder, you
know the.
The boy shot in Idaho I shotfour times in the front
shoulders so I did lose somemeat there.

(08:37):
I'm like you know I'm not goingto risk eating lead fragments
and stuff, so yeah totally, soyou do lose some there.
Um, you know if you're notcareful there.
Yeah, what gun were youshooting?
I'm shooting a three-way, soit's just a kind of a
Frankenstein gun.
I just piece it together andand I like it.
It's a small, compact foldingstock gun and I shoot heavier,

(08:58):
slower bullets and it gets thejob done.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, it's not not a long range gunrange gun, but I'm
not really into long-rangethings.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, you're kind of a long-range human.
Yes, yeah, you do the movingwith your feet.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Well, my theory is, if you're going to have to go
over there to get the animalanyways, you might as well walk
halfway there, to start with.
If you're 800 yards away, andit depends on the train, of
course, but if you can, youmight as well just close the
distance.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
You know I like shooting while I'm hunting from
close range for a variety ofreasons, but one of the instant
ones is that got to hike all theway over there.
You cooked off all of youradrenaline and all those like

(09:49):
self-congratulatory feelings andnow you're just fatigued and
going straight to work and it'spretty nice to just walk
straight over to an animal thatjust tipped over and feel all of
that.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
You know, yeah, absolutely yeah, and I think
that's just part of the fun justtipped over and and feel all of
that you know yeah, absolutelyyeah, and I think I think it's
just part of the fun.
You know, I built a long-rangegun at one point and you know I
went out with it one year and Iended up shooting my deer from
100 yards anyways, and I'm justlike I, just I, and it was a
clumsy gun at 100 yards and I'mjust like this thing's stupid.
I took it apart.
Yeah, I just like I don't needa long-range gun.
Yeah, just like you know, Ithought about it.

(10:22):
I'm sitting there looking atanimals from a thousand yards
and, like I know the gun, I canshoot that far I can.
I can hit that animal, but butI don't want to.
I was like that'd be, like it'stoo risky first off, like if
it's an animal.
You really want to shoot, likeif you spend a week to find this
animal, you're just gonna lob abullet from a thousand yards
away when you know when youcould just walk up there for a
slam dunk, you know yeah, and awind call at that range is

(10:44):
extremely difficult.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
And then there's the time of flight issue with a
bullet, and even if you do havethe wind call perfect, and you
have a very precise hold and andyou know you've you've aligned
all the controllable factorsthat's still a live animal that
could move while that bullet'sin flight and it takes so little
movement of the animal to makeyour shot become awful that

(11:08):
that's a.
That's a huge factor tomitigate.
I shot at a bear at 390 yards afew years back and we actually
had it on camera so you couldsee that the bear was there and
static at the shot and the bearmoved and was completely out of
the impact of the bullet.

(11:29):
On a 390 yard shot on a veryfast bullet, 2,900 foot per
second bullet.
But yeah, I was.

(11:50):
I was very, very surprised bythat because I would consider
that you know a medium rangeshot for sure it's not.
It's not a close shot becauseI'm still having to hold high,
but yeah, it's interesting.
So how did your?

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Idaho hunt go.
Idaho hunt went really well,yeah I got a pretty nice deer
and a nice elk.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
Tell me the story.
I love a story.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, that bull was.
As far as shooting goes, yeah,that's, that was like at my max
with that gun.
It was like three, three, 30 orsomething.
Okay, it's pretty close inthere, but that was a 45 inch
drop, so so, anyways, yeah,that's, that's.
That's long range to me.
I'm just like I can shoot, youknow, really far, like some

(12:30):
people do, but you know thatthat's like my.
I sat there for an hour andhave my gun all set up and like
I still wasn't sure if I wasgoing to take the shot, but the
bullets just lay in there in hisbed and you know.
Anyways, I guess I'm.
I'm back to the goats.
Thought I was going to havehelp in Idaho.
So when I realized duringSeptember that I wasn't going to

(12:52):
have help in Idaho, I wasactually a little nervous.
I was like crap.
You know, like I bought thistag, which is a lot of money
yeah, you know, I didn't buyIdaho tags for a lot of years
because I'm like the wildernessin Idaho is so big, like we're

(13:12):
going to go in there and have toget an elk out by yourself,
like that's, that's just a lotof work, you know, even if you
know, in Idaho in September youcan hunt with a rifle, so your
odds of killing a bull are veryhigh.
So like it's just a matter ofeffort, right, it's just a
matter of labor to go in thereand get them and get them back
out, you know.
So like I'm like, okay, nowI've got goats, I'm gonna make
this happen, I'm gonna get thetag, I'm gonna go and do it.

(13:32):
So I'm committed.
And then I went out septembergoats didn't work, and so you
know, I knew going into the thatI was going to be on my own
feet, yeah and uh, hauling allthe meat myself.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
so so did that change your plan at all for where you
were planning on going and stufflike?

Speaker 2 (13:47):
that no, no, not at all actually because, I uh, you
know, kind of dug deep.
I brought up another um anotherstrategy I guess, you could
call it that uh kind of had onthe back burner for a few years
and I think this is something alot of us have thought about.
Yep, yeah, it's um, we thoughtabout it, but then you also

(14:08):
think about how much work it is,because, uh, you know it's just
, uh, the.
You know you got to think themethod through all the way right
.
You know, when you first thinkof jerky, I'm thinking you know
small pieces.
You know like maybe a you knowfour inch long strip of meat.
You know you're thinking youneed wire racks and you need a
lot of a lot of you know a bigsmoker and all that and and

(14:30):
that's normally how we do itright.
But I stumbled on an old diagramand like one of these like
native american books or, youknow, skill books or whatever,
and I saw how they're actuallycutting the meat into like three
to four foot strips and I'mlike then it clicked.
I'm like, hey, you know likethis is an option, like you
could hang a whole elk by a fireon like a pretty manageable

(14:52):
size rack, and so I kind of Ifigured that out like maybe
three years ago, four years ago,and so it's always kind of been
there and I'm like, you know, acouple years they even packed
out a little bit of salt just incase.
I'm like I think I'll maybeneed to do it on the sun and
then you know, really the saltisn't necessary, but but anyways
, I've kind of been dabbling,you know, thinking about it, and
it just didn't connect untilthis hunt and I was like you

(15:14):
know the weather's gonna beright and I'm kind of like you
know I've got the time to burn.
That's the other thing ifyou're gonna make jerky anytime
and um, you know I had it forthis one I had.
You know I was planning on goingin for 10 days.
So if I spent half of that onon, just you know, getting out
processed and out of the field,and I'd be doing pretty good.
So anyways, so.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
So that was it.
What day did you find your bull?
On?

Speaker 2 (15:39):
the first day, first day yeah, first day found him
and killed him first day.
No, I found him the first day.
Okay, you know how things gothe first day.
You know, if you find a bigbull on the first day, you start
to think like man, like maybethere's a lot of big bulls here.
I'm like, I'm like shoot, Ijust, you know, I kind of raced
in.

(15:59):
You know, um, let's see, I droveall night to get there, yeah,
out of the trail had like 2 aamor something, and I sleep in the
front seat.
And then you know there'sactually somebody else breaking
down camp at the trailhead atlike 5am, you know, woke me up.
So I was like, oh crap, well,now I'm up, I might as well go.
So I started hiking and I getin there like five miles, and I
and I just I just like crashcause I'm just too tired, you

(16:20):
know.
So I actually literally likelay down on the side of the
trail and take a nap, yeah anduh, just, I was totally spent.
So like I get up and you know,delirious and whatever, and I
just started hiking in and and Iand I wasn't totally sure I was
going to go, because you knowthat when you look at the google
earth and the maps and whatever.
You kind of get a rough idea ofthe landscape in your, in your
mind and where the trails areset and everything, but you

(16:42):
don't actually know what it'sgoing to look like.
So I try to stay open-minded.
You know, going in, yeah andthat, and so you're always like
trying to match things upbecause you know that country's
so, so steep.
You know, even hunting localhere in the eagle caps, the
frank church is where I was atand that that's, that's a lot
steeper ground yeah, and so Iwasn't totally committed to

(17:03):
anything and I just was likegoing through and I was looking
at kind of side trails or goingup the you know the side of the
mountain.
I'm just like you know, justkind of waiting until one felt
right and I was like, hey, thisone looks good, it looks like
it's going up into a nice basin.
And so I ran up that trail and,uh, anyways, yeah, that evening
I got up into a nice old burn.
I just like burned out thislittle like bottom of this you

(17:24):
know timbered basin and it kindof regrown in with you know buck
brush and you know what, notall the first, first like kind
of wave of plants that fill in,and yeah.
And so I stopped there and Iglassed a bit and I seen this
bullies out in this meadow.
It was actually right above theburn in the timber.
Then there's these littlegrassy meadows, super steep

(17:47):
slope, with some grassy faces on, and he was feeding in there.
And so I I kind of I know Ithought about it for a little
while and, uh, I decided not toshoot him.
Actually I was like man, he'sbig, he's a big, big, six point.
It's like 330 bull, but it'sopening, opening day and you
know, like I've got so manyplaces in mind, I'm like I've

(18:09):
got probably 10 basins lined up.
I'm like I can side hillthrough all these.
If there's a bull here, there'sgoing to be a bull in half
these other basins, right.
And so I actually just actuallywent the other direction and I
I looked into the next basin andI camped up high so I could see
him, and into another spot thenext morning and, um, anyways, I

(18:29):
realized pretty quick after thesun went down, I was like I'm
an idiot, I should have shotthat bull.
I'm like I should at least try.
I mean, nothing's guaranteed.
He was still a long ways away itwas hard to get close distance
on it, whatever, yeah, but I'mlike I should have at least
tried.
I was like that was dumb.
He's going to be gone, soanyways.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, yeah.
All the things go through yourmind right Like is he going to
get bumped by wolves?
Am I going to come back to thatbase and then see a couple of
guys hunkered up over the top ofhim gotten him out?
Yeah, Anything can happen, Surething could happen, sure.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
So the indecision that can set down on a guy at
night is pretty tough, right.
Yeah, I didn't overthink toomuch, because there's a lot of
opportunity.
I mean, still, I'm like, even ifhe's not there in the morning,
it's not gonna be the end of theworld, but it could be a long,
hard hunt to find another one.
And then you also have the thelogistical issue of getting them
out.
So I'm like getting a bullearly in the hunt's a lot better
, and getting one on day eightand not having time to to make

(19:26):
jerky and get them out.
Otherwise now I'm running into,you know, I'm running out of.
If I were gonna shoot somethingon day eight, I'm gonna be low
on supplies, I'm gonna be, youknow, probably 10 pounds lighter
, I'm gonna be hungry and weakand all that you know.
So, um, anyways, yeah, nextmorning, um, it's super foggy.
So I just, you know, whatever15 degrees and foggy, and so I

(19:49):
just made a big fire and satthere and waited for the fog to
break and actually it wasprobably 1,000 yards away and
you know, some people would havejust taken it from there and I
guess that would have beenconvenient.
But I moved in closer and I cutthe distance to about 450.

(20:12):
And then I was just seeing themthrough a couple little
shooting lanes in the trees andI was still kind of across a
draw.
But I was looking uphill,pretty steep, so I was maxed out
.
I couldn't get any closer.
I'd be in the timber, yeah.
So yeah, I just kind of settledin there and I'm like let's not
ruin this.
You know, it's just like he wasby then he'd bedded down and so

(20:36):
I'm like, well, let's just takeour time and try to like sort
the situation out.
Am I going to be able it closeror circle or anything?
And but I could see the bullsso I could keep tabs on, know
what he's doing and all that.
So I set the gun up on some,you know, blow down big clean
logs.
It's nice because you know withthe burn the blocks had no bark
on them or anything.
So I set up just like a benchrest and I got the gun all set

(20:56):
up and crosshairs on them andlook good through the scope and
but it's still a long shot yeahI didn't get a chance to test
fire the gun before the hunt.
Which the gun?
Always it shot.
Good for me, I don't have anyissues with it.
But still, you know, I likethat confidence of of test
firing before I go out, yeah,but things were rushed and so I
sat there for like an hour, Ihad lunch and, you know, thought

(21:18):
things through, looked at thecalculator and looked at my drop
and looked at, you know, likeyou know all the possibilities
for for the shot, and finallytalked myself into it and and,
uh, yeah, I shot him once and he, he, he couldn't get up and
tried to get up and he couldn't.
So the first shot he was, he waslaying down in his bed and he
was kind of rolled backwards andso shooting at him, you know,

(21:40):
my kill zone was a lot shorterthan it would be if he was, you
know, standing up or something.
So I angled through him and hithis spine and so he couldn't
get up and um, but I could tell,you know, he still looked like
he was really trying.
So I just shot him again andand I'm like, and it sounded
good, you know, I'm shooting asuppressor, yeah, so I know when

(22:00):
it hits.
I know it, you know.
So the shot sounded good.
He was acting like I hit himgood and so I waited, like I
don't know, probably a coupleminutes and he was still at his
head up like shoot me.
I don't know what's going on andI didn't try this bullets at
that distance either.
I'm only shooting.
You know, 2,700 feet a secondand getting out there to 450

(22:23):
yards, they're slowing down.
I 2,700 feet a second andgetting out there to 450 yards,
they're slowing down.
I haven't.
I don't know what the you knowif these, how these bolts are
going to open up and perform atthat rate, what bullet is it?
They're like a lead tip, like apointed soft point.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
And so, but I hadn't tested them at that range or
anything.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
How many?
How many grains are there?

Speaker 2 (22:38):
180s.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So I just shot him actually twomore times, I did him four
times until he finally put hishead down.
I'm like, you know, I wasn'tgoing to take any risks.
Yeah, so, yeah, yeah.
So I had him dead and so thatfelt good and I'm like, okay,
well, I got to start, you know,getting ready for the work, you

(23:01):
know.
So I actually set up camp rightthere.
Right where I was shooting fromwas a really nice flat spot
right in the middle of the burn,in the bottom of the basin.
So I actually set up campbefore I even went up there to
get him because I'm like youknow, weather's moving in and
got a bull down and and, um, hewas up on a super steep face.
I'm like I, you know I can onlydo so much up there.
You know it'd be hard to evenfind a spot for sleeping bag up

(23:22):
there.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
So so did you get him moved back to camp that first
day?

Speaker 2 (23:28):
not all the way, not all.
Yeah, I did what I could.
So, yeah, I went up there.
I, I think first load, I tookthe head down to camp um, and
actually you know some peoplearen't into this, but I cut the
legs off and the head off and Irolled them down to the creek,
you know.
So from there he's really only.
I don't know, maybe 150 yardsfrom camp.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
And I think people have some misconceptions about
animals rolling on a hillside.
I've seen some pretty horrificfalls that animals have taken
after getting shot in some ofthese steep canyons and stuff.
I haven't seen meat damage fromit.
Yeah, has that been yourexperience?

(24:11):
Was there any meat damage fromrolling down the hill there was,
and it's not something.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
I've done a lot.
But you know, in thosesituations, you know it's just
it's just trying to trying tomake it work, I'm like, well,
this is this is, if I was evergoing to try it, now would be
the time.
You know, like um, this ispretty, pretty tough.
Um, you know a lot, a lot ofweight just getting it down to
camp.
It's a big, big chore.
You know you got five loads ofwhatever and it's super, like
the like it's so steep, likeit's so dang steep and it's soft

(24:37):
ground too.
You know I'm wearing uh, youknow I'm wearing the um like
chains on my my shoes and yeahall that, and I'm like I gotta
give it a shot.
So I rolled it down and you knowthere's nothing wrong with me,
yeah it was it was actuallysuper clean and you know, but I
don't know I'm having problemswith it yeah, obviously there's
for for folks listening.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
There's limits to this, but if it's just like a
steep grassy hillside orsomething like that, um it, it
is a viable means of moving thatanimal a long ways without
damaging the meat.
I will say that if you can,don't gut him first, you don't
want to necessarily have thatopen cavity because it's going

(25:16):
to fill up with all kinds oftrash and rocks and all kinds of
just stuff that you don't wantto contaminate your meat with.
But yeah, it's a viable move insome situations.
So, okay, so that's anexperiment that we tried and
worked out.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah, yeah, so that that worked out well.
So now he's in the Creek, youknow, down or you know, maybe
really close to the Creek, youknow, closer to camp, only got
150 yards.
So I, you know, then I bonedthem out, hung, hung up the bags
right there Um, there's acouple of nice branches, meat on
, and I hauled, I think, twoloads to to my tent and then it

(25:52):
just got too dark and it'spouring on rain and you know
that was turning into snow andso I'm soaked and whatever, and
you know normal stuff and.
But you know I was pretty spentafter.
You know it's just a long day,uh, just hiking and hauling and
all that and, and so I just leftthe two bags over there to get
them in the morning and and, uh,yeah, just threw those on a log
at camp and and went to sleep,yeah so, and then I woke up in
the morning there's six inchesof snow and and a lot of work to

(26:16):
do.
So then what happened?
Well, let's see, I think I Idon't think I left the tent till
10 am, which normally I'm, I'm,you know if I'm a person that's
up at 4 am and I'm ready to go,and yeah, you know, I was
pretty comfortable.
I'm like heck, I got got thebull killed.
I'm just like I'm just gonnasleep in and recover and take my
time with this.

(26:36):
And so, yeah, I slept until,like you know, 10, and then I
got up and went over, hauled acouple of loads of meat, the
last couple loads of meat to thecamp and, you know, had lunch
and kind of just settled in.
I wasn't sure if I was evengoing to start processing jerky
that day.
I'm like I got 10 days to burn.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
This is day two of the hunt yeah, so did you have
any other tags?

Speaker 2 (26:56):
I did I did, which were on my mind.
For sure, it would have beennice to go and fill six tags in
one hunt, but you know I, I feltgood with that bull and, like
you know, I'll get him out andhalfway through the hunt, even
if I take my time and and haveplenty of plenty of time still,
so, okay, so yeah.
And then that evening I built abig rack, um, decided to to do

(27:16):
the jerky thing Right, and so Ibuilt a big, uh rack.
It just did like uh I guess Icould describe it as like uh,
two teepees, I do like threepoles, and tied them together
like eight feet apart, and thenI ran a ridge, pull across, yeah
, and then I I took some, uh,some, you know, heavy, like what
do you call it?
dyneema, cordage or whateverit's really strong, doesn't

(27:38):
really stretch too much, and Iran like, I think, only four
rows across the one side of theum the legs and to hang meat on
okay and then I built a big longfire under that and, um, yeah,
got the fire going and then Istart cutting meat and I think I
processed half the meat thatnight and I guess, uh, describe

(27:59):
how I do it.
Um, the diagram that I found inthat, uh, that book I don't
even know what book it is.
I should find that and and tellyou what it is.
But, uh, it was just thispicture.
I don't even think there was.
I don't even know what book itis.
I should find that and tell youwhat it is.
But it was just this picture.
I don't even think there was.
I don't even know if there's adescription in there.
It just felt like a sketch ofwhat they did.
And it was like they took eachmuscle body.
So first you bone the meat out,you take it off the bone, and
then you isolate each musclegroup.

(28:31):
And then you take each musclelike cross grain cut and maybe
like a two inch round, likewheel I guess, or big stake, and
then I take that.
And then I actually bought onmy way out there because I
decided to do this.
I bought a brand new bony knifebecause I didn't want to do the
whole thing in my havalonnormally I do everything with
havalon.
I'm like I should have a littleextra cutting power for this
one right, and that that bonyknife really made a job a lot
easier.
So yeah, on a nice clean log Ijust like rolled those out like

(28:53):
a cinnamon roll.
I guess you just kind of startthem on one edge and you just,
you know, cut it as thin as youcan and roll it out and turn
that into like a three or fourinch strip long, or three or
four feet long, and like twoinches wide strip of meat, and
then that only takes up twoinches on your rack on the fire
and so you can hang.
I hung the whole elk on thatrack, wow yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
And did you do every bit of the elk?
No, I didn't.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Um, I could have.
Yeah, I probably will in thefuture.
I've got another hunt planwhere I'm like, yeah, I'm going
to go, I'm going even further,even bigger, and whatever, and
so that one I'm going to be alittle bit more strategic and
think through the process alittle bit better to figure out
how to turn all those smallerpieces into jerky.
But for this hunt I didn't wantto deal with it, I just I just
bagged up all the small oddpieces and I and I just I had

(29:42):
one game bag full of that.
So I had one one load to hikeout.
That was fresh heavy meat.
So the next day I hauled thefresh meat out, which is a whole
day thing.
I'm 10 miles in with the elk,so it was a 20-mile round trip,
ran all the way to the truck andback, and then I came back and

(30:08):
my jerky is already a quarter ofthe way dried and and that was
all looking good.
And so I actually kind of,actually kind of prepped that
because I want to keep hunting,right, I'm like I could just sit
here, right, I can man the fire.
I could probably get it to dryout a little faster, but I'm
also like this thing's gonna dryon its own.
Anyways, the bears are mostlikely in hibernation.
I wasn't seeing any, you know.
I was like probably.
You know the wolves are prettyskitzy, you know they're not

(30:30):
going to come around the campwith a lot of human sin.
I feel pretty comfortable, so Ijust actually left it.
I kind of like threw a tarpover the top just to keep the,
the ravens from having anywhereto land, and I threw the ashes,
spread it out underneath, justso it's messier and just harder.
You know things wanting to getin there, you know from
underneath and and um, yeah, andthen I actually went hunting

(30:51):
looking for deer for a coupledays and then I circled back to
pick up the jerky later.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
Okay, yeah so when you're deer hunting, were you
operating out of that same campor did you take camp with you?

Speaker 2 (31:04):
no, I um yeah, when I'm actually hunting I'm mobile,
always moving camp.
But okay, you know, in thatbigger country I'm actually
hunting.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
I'm on mobile, I always move in camp.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
But okay, you know, in that bigger country
especially, you know, like Idon't know it, just it's too big
.
You know the, if you're likehad a base camp, like you can,
you can really.
Only I mean you just can'treach a new basin every day.
You'd be hiking.
Just the next basin is, youknow, five miles and two
thousand foot climb up and allthat.

(31:29):
You might as well take camp.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, I think base camps are really limiting and
people don't understand how, howbig that circle gets around
them, that all the animals areaware of their presence, like
really quickly, as soon as youare in a camp and you're having
fires and food smells and youknow the just the noises and

(31:52):
presence of a human.
Now, that said, if you're in amigration area, a base camp can
be terrific, um, but you've gotto be.
You've got to understand thatyour presence is affecting
wildlife in a base campsituation.
So if you can camp with, if youcan hunt with camp on your back

(32:12):
, that's definitely a good thing.
Yeah, I've been jammed up a lotof times because I left camp
somewhere, even when I wascapable of bringing it with me.
I was just tired.
You making comfort-baseddecisions and leave camp
somewhere and then you finallyfind animals at the end of the
day and you're six miles fromhome.

(32:34):
Then you're walking six milesin the dark and then you you
know you don't get very muchsleep and you're like well, do I
really want to wake up in anhour and a half and go do this
again?

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Right.
What I found is the base campis actually more work.
It seems like it would beeasier, right?
Maybe you can pack in a littlemore weight and have a little
bit more comfort just sittingthere waiting for you, but it is
so much work in big countryhave a headlight on and be
walking up a ridge, skyline orup you know, or up a base and

(33:12):
whatever it is, you're flushinganimals in the dark.
They can see it really easywith a headlight on.
So if you just lay low, I meanif you're off your, if you're
your camp with, you almost nevereven need to use a headlight,
right, you set up camp and yougo to sleep with the sun when
the sun goes down and you wakeup when it comes up and you're
right where you need to be andyou got fresh legs.
What does your camp look like?
It's not much to look at.

(33:34):
Yeah, yeah, it depends on thehunt.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Every hunt's different.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
I am not married to products I'm not married to.
You know this hunt was Ibrought a tent.
A lot of hunts I don't bring atent.
Yeah, you know this is when?
Was it November?
This was the first week ofNovember and we're going way in
there and the odds of really badweather are high.

(34:02):
And you know, when I'm localand I have more, you know I can
time it with the weather A lotof times.
You know local, I'll just wait.
If you have a storm, I'm justnot going to go hunting.
I'll just wait two days for itto pass and then I'll go out.
Then I can pack less weight andthe animals are easier to hunt
and all that.
But on this one I'm going for10 days.
So the odds are there's goingto be some nasty weather.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
So I'm like I should bring a tent and be prepared.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
So, so, um, so, this is just like a little one-man
tent or something.
Yeah, one-man backpacking tentand this is definitely not, um,
you know, a normal.
You know most hunters wouldn'tpack this.
You know this isn't a huntingbrand tent, it's just like a.
I'm not sure does any huntingcompanies make any of these like
freestanding, not freestanding,but like, uh, trekking pole
tents yeah, okay, yeah, there's,there's a few that do okay, um
but Um, but they're.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
They're starting to learn, like some of these
hunting companies are startingto learn from the back country.
You're always running the redline.
You're always like, uh, tryingto cut weight and stay alive,
and not just alive.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
But you know, uh, effective.
You know you want to be spent alot of time setting up camp and
breaking down camp.
You want to spend.
You don't want to be souncomfortable that you don't
want to get up in the morning togo glass and all of that.
So anyways, that's differentfor everybody too.
You know that's the thing, likeif I told you exactly what my
gear is, you know like youprobably wouldn't want to go use

(35:36):
it.
I mean, maybe you would, butmost people I tell wouldn't want
to go and do that.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Like, but it gets the job done.
Otherwise, you know, if I had amore traditional hunting you
know backpacking gear I think,uh, you know I, I would have a
hard time climbing up themountain.
You know, because I'm covered.
You know, in that country therewas some days I was climbing,
you know, 4 000 feet straight up.
You know the mountain.
So that's a lot of a lot ofsteep ground.

(36:00):
You know, I just and I'm not abig guy, I'm just, you know, 170
pounds and you know small frame, I'm not packing 80 pound packs
up the mountain.
I just think it'll happen.
Yeah, just not gonna.
Yeah, just not not doable.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, yeah, you're built for speed yeah, yeah, yeah
, exactly so.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
So anyways, yeah, everything's lightweight,
actually on the disposable side.
You know, actually I think alot of the hunting communities
hung up on stuff that lasts along time and durability.
I lean towards things beingstrong enough, for you know,
durable enough for a couple ofhunts.
You know a couple of hunts.
If you're, you know you'redoing good.
So shoes you know I wear tennisshoes.

(36:40):
I'm very confident they'regoing to hold up, for you know,
a few hunts and then get rid ofthem.
They're only a hundred bucks apiece versus a $500 boot, and so
they last just as long.
The your dollar goes just asfar, and they're not as heavy
and stiff.
They don't give you blistersand all that you know.
Same thing with a lot of thegear.
You know the tent you can havea super durable tent.

(37:01):
It's going to withstandeverything, or or you just have
to be smart about it, right?
You gotta?
You gotta camp under, under thetimber or something if you got
really bad weather.
You don't want to camp right onthe ridge line yeah, yeah, yeah
, no.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
Those are really interesting perspectives.
Some of the best advice I everfound on how to lighten up your
gear load came from bookswritten by through hikers,
people who are doing thecontinental divide trail on the
appalachian trail, people whoare putting on, you know, 2500
miles a year on these trails.
They know more than hunterswill ever know about cutting

(37:40):
weight and what gear works.
And they're going to see allkinds of weather.
Especially if you look atcontinental divide trail,
pacific crest trail, they'regoing to see all the weather.
Yeah, which I've done, I didthe PCT in 2013,.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
I think.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, so what are some lessons you learned from
the PCT that have carried intothis hunting stuff?

Speaker 2 (38:00):
other than what you've already talked about.
If you never stop moving, younever cool down.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
You don't need as much gear if you just kind of
have a more active you know ifyou're sitting for.
You know I like to glass butlike if you're sitting for six
hours straight, I mean you needa fire, I mean, or you need just
like crazy puffy clothes andall that.
But you can really cut a lot ofweight if you just have more.
You're more mobile, you know,moving more.

(38:32):
I think that's a big thing, youknow, like through hiking you're
.
I mean, you're just hiking fromsunup to sundown, you know you
never stop.
You need a very thin layer,maybe like a base layer and a
rain shell in a bad storm.
You do just fine, you know, ifyou're just moving.
And also food, you know reallyrich food.
When I first started, uh, thebackcountry stuff, I was, you
know, still in that kind of likelower fat sort of diet thing,
you know and and that's justdoesn't work in the mountains

(38:54):
you know, like when I firststarted I was going trying to go
, you know, be out in themountains for a long time, my
first several years out in themountains, like even just
scouting.
I'd be out for a month or two,not straight, but, you know,
back to back to back trips, youknow.
And one year my fingernailsstopped growing.
You know, like, literally afterthe season I had like a ridge
line growing through all myfingernails.
So, you know, and I was likeyou know, I had one time I

(39:17):
passed out, you know, I was justlike starving out.
And then I learned how, youknow, I learned how to eat more.
Now I just, you know, just eata lot of fat, a lot of protein
and you just be a lot strongerand warmer.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople you think they're going
to cut weight on food and itjust doesn't make sense because
in your you're weak and you'recold and you know everything
feels heavy when you're weak andcold and you know you're better

(39:38):
off packing, packing weight andfood and having everything else
super light.
I'd pack more butter than awarmer coat any day.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, yeah yeah, I get a wrinkle in my nails during
archery season every year.
Yeah, yeah, and I think it'sit's.
It's a little bit differentbecause I'm I'm probably eating
3 000 to 3 500 calories a dayduring archery, um, but I'm
working 20 hour days and there'sa lot there's.
There's a lot that sleepdeprivation and stress due to

(40:10):
you that starts shutting stuffdown and uh, yeah, just going
going for for a month straightwith that kind of workload.
It's really tough, really tough.
Yeah, pct, uh, is that 2600miles?

Speaker 2 (40:25):
yep, that's right.
Damn yep, and we actually dothe whole thing.
You know that's a a lot ofpeople don't get to do the whole
thing in a year.
We met a lot of people outthere.
They're trying to do it for thesecond or third time and it's
not necessarily their fault.
But you have a lot of wildfiresdown in California and you can
get some crazy snows up inWashington in the in the fall,

(40:49):
and so the fall.
And so, um, did you start inthe south?
Yep, we did.
Uh, south the north, which isthe way most people do it.
Yeah, um, but you know, we justheld a really good pace and we
didn't screw off too much, andso we stayed right ahead of the
wildfires on the way up and wegot done right before the heavy
snows in the cascades and andgot through.
So was it about six months?
No, I think it's like four.
You did in four months, four.

(41:09):
I think.
We started in april and Ifinished, um, I think I made it
back like the second week ofarchery season here in september
, so I came off the pct and thenwent straight out here archery
hunting the eel calves straightinto the woods.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
It was great.
Yeah, yeah, it was great.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
I was in such good shape, I literally like ran the
boat, my bull, down that year.
Yeah, yeah, like you know, Iwas uh going up into the spa and
glass the bull the eveningbefore and I kind of hiked over
there the next morning and andthey, they, they were actually
tucked into this little basinlike above tree line and I
couldn't see them.

(41:48):
But I was kind of hiking upinto there and then I heard I
heard the bugle.
You know in the morning thatthe bugles a few times, just a
few casual bugles, I mean theherds on the move, right, you
know they're probably going tostart heading to bedding area
and so there's such a tightlittle spot, you know, I know
there's there's really only onegood pass coming out of the top
of it, and so I figured probablythe way they're going to go,

(42:10):
and so I just ran all the way upto that pass and by the time I
got up there he was 80 yardsaway, which is a hoax.
I do not shoot like that anymore.
But this was when I waspracticing a lot.
There was a time when I had theability, you know, I had a good
place to shoot and I was reallyto archery and stuff.
And now now I hate archery.

(42:30):
I hate bows, but, but you haveto hunt with them.
To hunt in september, yeah, inoregon, so I still put up with
it, but, um, yeah, so I wasreally good at that point.
So I I took that e-arch andkilled him and he died, piled
right up, but but now my, my maxis like 30, you know, I don the
same way, dude.
Yeah, I'd rather just like notpractice and just like get close

(42:51):
to the bull now, because itdoesn't take hardly any practice
to shoot a bull at 30 yards.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah, there's more important things to practice
than shooting Absolutely A lotmore.
So I think in 2014, fall of2014, I shot a bull in Idaho at
71 yards.
I shot a bull in Idaho at 71yards.
Um, this fall, when I was bowhunting in Australia, I had lots
of shots at 40 yards and I waslike too far, I'm going to get

(43:17):
closer.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, like I, no, it's too far yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
And well, once you've done the longest thing, you
know like I'm, I'm a better shot.
Inevitably, inevitably, do haveaccidents.
You know, like I had issueswith a long range thing, like
even if it could shoot thataccurate, I had issues with
penetration and so you know, I Ithink I shot a nice buck, like
two years in a row where I shothim, you know, in the front

(43:42):
shoulder.
You know, and and same deer, notwo, two different deer two
different deer back to backyears.
I'm like I'm really good atshooting, let's, let's do it.
You know, and and same deer, notwo, two different deer, two
different deer back to backyears.
I'm like I'm really good atshooting, let's, let's do it.
You know, and and then I wasjust, it just wasn't getting the
penetration, they weren't dying, yeah and um.
So yeah, I quit that.
I quit that real quick.
I learned my lesson.
It was a, it was a bummer, butyou know, like I know, after you

(44:03):
, after that fails a few times,you're just like, nah, it ain't
worth it.
Just like, then, once you, onceyou're off the hook there, once
you decide you don't want toshoot long range, well, that's
pretty nice, cause you don'thave to.
You don't have to practiceshooting your bow all year.
You can just, you know, you canjust warm up and make sure
everything's on and shoot a fewweeks ahead of time and just 20

(44:23):
or 30 yards, and just, you'd besurprised at how close you can
get if you actually just like,don't have the option to shoot
70 yards and you just like, putan extra hour into the stock,
you'll end up.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
You'll end up a lot closer yeah, yeah, I'm a better
shot now than I was then.
Oh really for sure, right, Ihaven't gotten worse, issue
right, and I've been shooting myentire life and I shoot so many
different disciplines.
But my judgment has changed alot.
And, yeah, now I've seen somany archery failures, both, you

(44:57):
know, through my own huntingand through guiding.
I know that the closer you canget to 20 yards, the better.
Less than 20 yards and thewheels start to fall off again.
You know, I, absolutely Yep, Ihad issues with that too.
To 20 yards, the better.
Less than 20 yards and thewheels start to fall off again.
You know, I, absolutely yep, Ihad issues with that too.
Less than like yeah less than 20yards is a big.
I think it's a psychologicalproblem, but it's it's it's a
huge problem yeah, well, thingshappen so fast in there too.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
You know, like I had one time I snuck, stalked into
this bull seven yards.
Yeah, he was bedded down.
I like stalked up, like rightin front of him, right in front
of his face, kind of on the um,I was downhill of him and he was
kind of on this little bit of alittle bit of a kind of a.
His bedding was kind of flatright and then it kind of broke
off, so I walked right upunderneath him.
You know, I crouched down, ofcourse, and I draw back and I

(45:43):
stand up.
Well, you know, maybe five,seven yards, something like that
, and he just spun out of thereso fast.
You never have a chance to geta clear shot of the vitals.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
You know, it's just things happen too fast and close
yeah, yeah, 20 to 25 yards is ais a very good range, that's.
That's a very, very good rangewhere success rates go up
substantially.
Uh than 20 yards success ratesstart to go down.
Over 28 yards, success ratesstart to go down.

(46:12):
And that's just been.
You know my experience doingthis professionally for a long
time.
So take that for what it'sworth, people, right?
Uh, so how much weight do youthink you packed out in jerky?

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Um, I don't know, I didn't have a scale, but you
know meat is about 75 water.
Yeah, so if you turn entire elkin a jerky, you know you're
gonna end up with like 50 or 60pounds.
Yeah, that's pretty manageable.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
that's where my math ended up with too.
I was like, I think, because Ididn't know if you'd done the
whole bowl or not.
But I was like I bet if he didevery ounce of that bowl, he
could get it down to 60 to 70pounds, because you're not going
to dry it all the way outeither.
You don't want powder, right?
But yeah, that's what I figuredyou were going to end up with.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
So I only ended up with maybe 30 to 40 tops,
Because I'd taken one whole loadout fresh which was probably
like 80 to 90 pounds fresh.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
But still, if you add 30 or 40 pounds to a 40 or 50
pound pack, that's a verysubstantial load.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Oh yeah, yeah, that's still a separate trip for me.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
I'm small because I don't like to carry it.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
I'll do it.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
I had to do it on that I don't want it to end.
It's more than half your bodyweight.
But I didn do it.
I had to do it on that, I don'twant to have your body weight,
but I didn't want to do it earlyon the hunt.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
I'm like I'm not gonna take a hundred pound, load
out more than half your bodyweight for 10 miles in steep
country.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So anyways, yeah, the jerkything, did you bring salt?

Speaker 1 (47:39):
no, no salt, no salt.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
So this is there's a lot of things about meat I'm
learning out here this is fun,right like how to, how to like.
You've inspired me a little bit.
You've been doing some of thelong aging and stuff right and
uh, there's a lot of things that, like modern people you know,
growing up with freezers andstuff, you always hear, like you
know, if you're, if your meatthaws out, you throw it away.
Right, if you're on vacation,you come back, it's thought out,

(48:00):
you throw it away because likeit could be rotten.
But like you know, like if meatfreezes and thaws a few times,
it doesn't, actually doesn'thurt it, it actually just
tenderizes it as long as it'snot thawed out and warm for a
long time and then it rots orwhatever.
But like when I'm making jerky,like in the mountains, it
freezes every night and thawsevery day.
Right, I did that for three orfour days.

(48:20):
It's actually really good jerky.
It's probably the most tenderjerky I've ever made.
It's probably the most tenderjerky I've ever made.
I bet it's good jerky, yeah, soit's like no salt and I don't
know, and sun dried and actuallyturned out really really good.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Were you at all picky about what you used to make the
smoke?

Speaker 2 (48:39):
No, no, and I didn't want to smoke it.
Yeah, like I intentionally putthe rack on the down or the
upwind side, so I wanted someheat and of course you're going
to get some some smoke driftingover there.
But you know, in the mountainsyou only have so many tree
species to choose from, so likeit's going to be pretty rough
smoke yeah if you smoked it with, like you know, spruce or like

(49:03):
alpine fir or something.
It's just gonna.
It's gonna be awful.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
You don't want a lot of that on there yeah, anything
that's got got sap is going tobe a big problem.
And, uh, I think a good way totell um, like, if you if you're
going to end up with a harshproduct, is, if you're getting a
lot of flame, then that'svolatiles that are inside the

(49:26):
wood and that's going to end upwith a real bitter taste in that
meat.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
So you were probably, by having it on the upwind side
, um, I imagine that fire waswas dehumidifying that area a
lot too yeah, yeah, but it'spretty dry climate anyways, you
know, sure, so after it rained alot the day that I killed him,
but after that we had just likesunny cold weather for like five

(49:51):
days yeah, so.
So he didn't.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Um, yeah, I mean, I don't know what the humidity was
, but I'm sure it wasn't veryhot anyways yeah, but if you
take, if you take wet cold airand you heat it up, you decrease
the humidity substantially,right?
I?
I see that here in in the sauna, right, we have a lot of very
high humidity days here in thewinter time.
A lot of times it's 90 orhigher, but that's with

(50:16):
temperatures that are, you know,say, 20 degrees.
So if I heat that sauna up to170 degrees, the humidity drops
down to 30% because I'veexpanded that atmosphere, right,
um, so it's, it's a, really Idon't know, it's fun, it's
interesting, right yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
But you know, like, even I don't know for the meat
it has all day, so like, even ifit only has six hours to dry in
the afternoon when the sun'sright on it, you know like, yeah
, you have all the time in theworld out in the mountains, so
so what are you going to do?

Speaker 1 (50:47):
differently next time I don't know I need to think
that through.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
I'm going to figure out how to get more of it dried.
Yeah, all right, I'm going tohave to pack whether that's just
like a little bit extra cordage, or I'm going to have to think
through, like, maybe buildingsome sort of rack.
I don't want it to be crazyamount of labor, right, I don't
want to build some sort of big,intricate rack or something.
But I'm going to figuresomething out, because next year
I'm going to go in a littledifferent area, a lot farther, a

(51:13):
lot, a lot less trails and withmore tags, and so I want to
have a really big hunt and soI'm going to plan on doing a lot
more jerky so what?

Speaker 1 (51:23):
what does more tags look like?

Speaker 2 (51:25):
more predators I'll have uh, let's see, it'll just
be one deer, one elk, butthey'll be.
I'm going to do it in september.
So next year I'm going to goinstead of going the late.
It's a split season, right?
So for the wilderness tags,they'll let you hunt the second
two weeks of september and thenthe season closes and then
they'll open it back up in earlynovember.
So this year I'm going to go inseptember, when the bulls are

(51:48):
rutting, so I'll go up in thehigh country instead of low, and
then there'll be more bears andthings to kill too, so the
bears will be on the berries uphigh.
So I'll have probably two bears, a deer or an elk and, if I'm
lucky, a cougar or a wolf.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
Nice, give us a few minutes of advice on cougar
hunting.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
That is a big, big can of worms, james it is yeah,
I'm.
I have been doing a lot ofcougar hunting lately, yeah and
uh.
Advice wise, I don't know.
I don't know where to start.
Depends on who you are, whereyou live, how much effort you

(52:33):
want to put into it.
I think more people need to doit.
I mean hands down.
I think just we need morepeople out in the field doing it
.
We have we have limited methods.
We have methods that work reallywell, but they're not really
wide well known you know, and in, in, like in theory, like
people know like, oh go, youknow, play your predator call
you just go call in a cougar,right.

(52:53):
But then you go out in thefield and it just doesn't work,
right.
You go out there for 10 daysand just nothing comes in.
It's because there's more to itthan that, right, you got to
think through the set, you gotto think through what days
you're going out and the time ofthe year and all this.
So there's more to it.
I would just say, like, putmore thought into it, put more
effort into it, right, likethat's what you do when you're
deer and elk hunting.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
So so do you think about it from the cougar's
perspective?

Speaker 2 (53:20):
often, yeah, yeah, yeah, each different method will
have different ways itinteracts with a cougar's like
natural tendencies, right?
So I think, uh, yeah, as far asmethods go like, calling is
still really good.
Um, I don't know how far intothis you want to go, james yeah,

(53:41):
I think we have.
I have one method that I wouldlove to share, but I'm afraid to
because unfortunately I don'tthink our fish and wildlife
agencies wants us killingcougars.
You know, I had a method thatworked really well.
I was doing for a few years andthen I started promoting it.
I started telling everybodyabout it and then they banned it
and um, so that one's out thedoor.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
So, moving on to new things, I've got a method that
works really good right now.
It's legal, it works super good, but I'm really afraid to share
it because I think they'll banit.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Yeah, well then keep it to yourself.
Yes, keep it to yourself.
I guess I get a huge number ofrequests from people to guide
cougar hunts in Oregon, which Iwill not do, and the reason why
is because I do not have anyexpectation of success in
guiding somebody.
I could do it and we could besuccessful, but it would have to

(54:41):
be the right person and theywould have to be willing to hunt
for 20 days straight, and Ithink that if I had somebody who
was skilled and dedicated andwe could hunt for 20 days
nonstop, that we could we couldfind a lion.
But how many days on average?
And you've been wildlysuccessful at cougar hunting in

(55:02):
Oregon, as much so as anyone Iknow you're on a very short list
there.
How many days of hunting do youhave per lion?
If you had to guess at it?

Speaker 2 (55:13):
it's getting better.
Yeah, yeah, when I firststarted it was around seven and
a half days per cat, and then,um, last year I don't know what
is this year I'm closer to threeor four yeah, yeah so I'm
getting a lot better, but thoseare only hunting.
You know I've been doing it for,I think, 10 years now or
something close to that, and soyou know now I know what, what

(55:39):
to do, different times of theyear and and what weather.
You know, like that would bepart of the issue with guiding
right is you've got a clientthat's out of state or out of
town or whatever and they'regoing to book a hunt for you
know, whatever calendar days.
Well, if you got bad weather,you might as well not even go
out, like it's totally a wasteof time.
You know so, like if you've gota bad storm, like cougars they

(56:00):
just bed up.
You're not going to like go cuttracks in the middle of a
snowstorm of a snowstorm, yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
So here we are in january there's a little bit of
waterfowl hunting going on.
There's a little bit of uplandgoing on.
Um, people can hunt coyotes,but a lot of the big game stuff
is winded down.
But we can still hunt, huntcougars here in oregon year
round.
Two tags per person.
Tags are 16.50 for residentsand non-residents.
If somebody was to go cougarhunting in Oregon in January,

(56:32):
they're all fired up.
After having listened to thispodcast, what would you tell
them to?
Go try, let's see.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
I think the best thing to do right now is cutting
tracks.
You know you got to wait forthe right weather, so you have
to have a flexible schedule andyou got to watch the weather
really close and you want towait for the the right weather.
So you have to have a flexibleschedule and you want to watch
the weather really close and youwant to.
You want to wait for, you know,good snowstorm.
You know I want to want somerough weather for for a couple
of days.
Even that really helps.
And then that first good dayyou want to go out and and cover

(57:01):
as many roads as possible andcut fresh tracks, and then you
can either just walk them outand and hope to, you know, maybe
find a kill that they'refeeding on or something.
I know somebody that does prettygood doing that.
He just follows a lot of tracksand finds a kill and then he
hunts off the kill.
You can also just, if thetracks look fresh, you follow
them until you get into a goodspot.

(57:22):
You think you're close enoughthat cat can hear your call and
you try to call them back, whichI think is pretty effective.
Yeah, can hear your call andyou try to call them back, which
, um, I think, is it's prettyeffective yeah yeah uh, but you
need, you know that's.
You're gonna need a good machineto drive in the snow, like I've
tried that one year and um, youknow, I've just got a normal
pickup and you're really, you'rereally pushing it.

(57:42):
You're really getting stuck allthe time and it's it's a lot of
work just trying to find roadsthat that have the right snow
depth.
You can actually get aroundbecause you're not going to cut
a cougar track in the first 10miles.
You might be driving for fouror five hours all night long
looking for a fresh cougar trackto follow.
So you got to have a lot ofroad, you got to have a machine
that can do it.
So I mean, you can, you can doit with a pickup if you time it

(58:05):
right, especially the earlysnows where there's not like
multiple layers of crusty snowthat you're going to fall
through and all that you cankind of pull it off.
But but, like, definitely laterin the year, you need to all
sorts of machines.
But you want, you know, fourstroke.
You go out there on it on atwo-stroke.
You know snowmobile, you'rejust going to scare them away
anyway.
So you need to track side byside, or you know, built up

(58:27):
tacoma or I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's a commitment.
You need the right machine tostart with and then you need,
you know you need to be able tohike in the snow.
You cut those tracks now youknow you're gonna need to be
physically fit enough to go pullit off.
You need to be able to sit inthe cold for at least an hour.

(58:47):
Cougar sets are about an hour.
So if you're going to set upand call, you gotta gotta give
them time, because they're cats,they're just like.
Even if they hear you, they'rejust like.
You know, I've seen them before.
I've spotted them before andthen started calling and they
still.
It takes them a while just toto get out of their bed.
You know they'll just be layingthere.
They'll look at it like I don'tknow.
And then you know, one time Ihad a cat coming in from a long

(59:10):
ways away and he bedded up twoor three times on his way in.
He was coming in and I just waswatching him was waiting for me
, closer and closer, and he justlay down and just lay down for
like an hour at a time like, ohman, yeah, they're just, they're
just not.
They don't come running in likecoyotes do.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Now I think that all that isreally sound advice for somebody
to get started.
But man, I just I couldn'tencourage people strongly enough
to just try it.
Just try it.
There's plenty of cougars.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
There is a lot of cougars.
There are, like, for a lot ofthe units out here.
I was doing the math on it.
I've done it a couple of timesjust because it's kind of crazy,
but there's probably morecougars in each unit out here
than there are mature bucks.
Yeah yeah, like I thinknumbers-wise you have a better
shot at killing a cougar thanyou do a big buck.
That's crazy to think about.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Yeah, if you look at the numbers, you know some of
these units out here, you reallyare only like looking for like
a handful of mature bucks.
Yeah, because there's, there's,just like you know, if you look
at the actual buck to doe ratio, look at the total number of
deer and break it down to buckto doe ratio, so you only have
whatever number of bucks andthen then the actual percentage
of those that are, you know,five years or older, it's less

(01:00:29):
than there are cougars.
Wow, yeah, wow yeah.
That's not great.
No, no.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Not great for our deer.
No, what about sounds?
Is there a place where peoplecan find sounds to purchase for
their calls that actually work?

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
sure, sure, I do sell some calls.
I think cats are curious.
You know they're going to comeinto all sorts of things, I
think with the, with the calls.
I think it's just as much onhow you use them as what the
calls.
You want a good, realisticsounding call, but you also want
it to be deployable in aneffective way for cats.
So for cougars.

(01:01:13):
I don't want to be close to mycall.
If you're sitting next to yourcaller, the cat's probably going
to see you.
So, how far away do you like tobe?
I like to be at minimum 100yards.
I like to be 200 or 300 yardswhen I can, which takes a lot of
legwork.
It's really annoying.
You're out there, you hiked allthe way in somewhere and you're
like gonna go set up and you'relike man, I gotta go like hike

(01:01:34):
all the way across this draw toset the call down and they'll
hike all the way back, knowingthat you're gonna have to go
back over there to get the calllater.
Yeah, like it's a lot oflegwork, but the cat's not gonna
see.
So like I think a lot of peoplecalling cats and they and they
just get busted and they justdon't even know it, like if um
their vision is very good.
It's very good.
And they're so slow.

(01:01:54):
They're still so likemethodical when they come in,
they're just like walking slowand they're looking at
everything.
They're super good at spottingmovement and stuff and like I've
had me before and I didn't evenknow it.
You know, I get up from thecall set and I I start walking
back and shit, there's a cougarlike 20 yards behind me.
I don't even know, yeah.
So like, yeah, that just isn'tworking.
You know, you can just keepdoing the same thing and hoping

(01:02:17):
to get lucky and it'll come infrom a different direction or
whatever and you'll see it, butprobably isn't going to happen.
So like I think it's way betterto be far away from the call
and, especially if you're doinga lot of calling, it's not going
to come in on your first set.
So you know each set's an hourlong and if you're going to go
and do five of those in a day,you're sitting there for five
hours plus hiking in between andall that.
So it's really hard to be allkeyed up and like super still,

(01:02:41):
and you know tense the wholetime.
So like, I want to be far awayso I can run the jet boil and
make coffee and make a meal andstretch out, like if you're 300
yards away from the caller andyou're like across the draw,
there's no reason for a cougarto be looking your way, yeah,
and so I'd rather be relaxed andjust enjoy myself and be out
there all day, versus like goingout and doing one or two sets
and like, just like when wouldyou come?

(01:03:03):
Just like giving up, right,because you're just like this
sucks I'm.
You know, you just get rightand I think part of that's just
because you're close and you'reand you're, you're working too
hard.
Right, you're like becauseyou're trying to stay still and
you're freezing your butt off,whereas like if you're far away,
you can be sipping on a hotdrink and, and you know, moving
around a little bit, so andthat's huge and you just gotta.

(01:03:23):
So you want to cross a draw,you want to be able to see the
cat coming in and you don't wanthim to see you.
Of course, the issue with thatis a lot of times that's outside
of the range of your remotecontrol for your caller.
So I like a call that you don'thave to do anything to.
Once you push play, it justgoes right.
You don't have to touch it foran hour.
So I made some calls that arearound 10 minutes and they kind

(01:03:46):
of naturally ebb and flow.
That are around 10 minutes andthey like kind of naturally ebb
and flow.
You know they speed up, slowdown pauses and whatever, and so
those play on repeat.
You don't really hear when itcycles and so you can run those
for an hour and it soundsnatural.
And you know, some of the callsout there were made for coyote
sets and they're super fastpaced and you're like you know,
like it just sounds ridiculousto have like an animal animals
don't have that much energy tolike scream for an hour straight

(01:04:09):
and it's just like and Ipersonally I don't want to
listen to them because they justdrive me mad like they're just
so, they're so intense, so likeI like a slower pace call and I
don't want to touch it, like Idon't want to be like fiddling
with my remote and moving forthat and all that, I just want
to just like just let it go.
So I made some longer calls and,um, yeah, so you push play and

(01:04:29):
you walk away.
So even if you can't controlyou don't have to push pause,
like so if you're playing ashort, fast call.
You might want to push pause.
Just be like man, I gotta giveit a break.
Make it sound natural.
So you're pushing pause andyou're switching things and
trying to make, trying to forceall these fast little calls to
sound natural right, but withwith the slower pace calls it's
more natural for an hour it'smore.
Sounds like so, like my deer indistress.

(01:04:50):
It sounds like um, it soundslike a deer is just like hung up
at a fence or something.
Right, it's just sitting therewhining, or like it's calling
for its mom or something.
That's not like.
Doesn't have like a coyote onits neck, like for an hour
straight and clearly it would bedead if it was right.
What's?

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
happening right?
Yeah, some of those thingssound like they're halfway
through the wood shepherd.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Yeah, yeah yeah, so, um, I started using those.
Of course, you know I startedkilling a lot of cats and people
are like wanting to know what Iuse, so I did put up a website
so people can can buy them.
I'm not, I'm not married to it,like I'm not trying to make a
lot of money with it.
I just I charge a little moneyso I can pay for the server and
whatever and um.
So if you want the calls, youcan definitely go to the website

(01:05:29):
.
I think it's catcallsorg.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Catcallsorg.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
Yeah, catcallsorg, and you'll get them.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
There will be a link for that in the podcast
description.
I bought those sounds.
I've got a line trip plannedhere in three weeks and I'm
going to go out for a week andsee if I can find one Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Yeah, yeah, hope it works out.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Yeah, I mean, for for my life, that's just what I
have to do, like I can'tnecessarily wait for weather
conditions.
I've got to pick a, pick ablock of time and then whatever
the weather gives me, that'swhat I'm going to do and I'll
I'll work on it that whole timeand, um, yeah, but I I do know
that that making makingefficient moves and smart

(01:06:18):
decisions is best, but time,time matters, yeah, um, so if
you can't be smart and efficient, just work hard, just get out
there, yeah, grind away, yeah,but yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
you know the calm days.
You know if you can get outthere when it's not windy, the
sound's going to travel a lotfarther.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Do you like the south or north?
What To set the call on?

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
Oh I don't care what to set the call on.
Oh, I don't care, cats cats,normally they're, they can be
anywhere, right, but they'dspend a lot of time running
ridges and in canyon like creekbottoms.
You know, I really like thecanyons, you know sound travels
get in there.
All the animals are, you know,funneled in there for the winter
um, once you get too much snowon top right now the animals are
still on top.

(01:07:06):
So there's no deer or cougarsdown in the canyons right now,
but they're getting close.
I think this next, next, youknow, snowstorm or two and
they'll be in there.
But, um, yeah, you want moreopen ground that the sound can
really travel.
And you know, if you're like intimber, brush and stuff, like
you know, especially if you gotwind and you're in the timber,
like that sounds just not goingto travel very good.
So it's really about just thenumbers, right, you want to just

(01:07:28):
like blink at the landscape,even, like when you're planning
your sets.
You know if you're going to goout and call, for you know, even
if it's all day, you just wantto like hike as far as you think
your sound's going to travel,right, actually twice as far.
So, like, if you're calling,you're like, oh man, this is a
really nice day.
My sound's probably travelinglike two miles down the canyon,
right?
So then when I go do the netset, I want to be four miles

(01:07:49):
down canyon because it's echoingback the other direction, right
, yeah, so, yeah, so you want to.
You want to try to like blanketthe whole landscape and break
it down, and you know so, youknow each.
I think, uh, cougar, uh,territories are like well, like
10 square low.
Well, I don't know aboutterritories, but density it's
like one per 10 miles, Is thatwhat it is, 10 square miles?

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
Yeah, but there can be a lot of lions inside that
area too.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
So, doing the numbers , you're like how many cats are
within this one square mile herethat you're going to hunt or
whatever it is for the day,right, and you just try to like
I don't know.
You just try to cover as muchground and you're like hope that
the cat that hears you is inthe mood and yeah, but cool, but
yeah, definitely, if you can,if you can get all in the better
days, it's it's way more timeeffect, you know, cost effective

(01:08:41):
or whatever you want to call it, and folks if you want some
visual for what we're talkingabout here.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
Joe has a tremendous YouTube channel and he's he's
showing a lot of the things thatwe've been talking about here,
and I think that that is why youhave been the most requested
podcast guests that I've had inmany, many months, and you know,
you and I have talked aboutdoing this show for a long time,
but, uh, I'm, yeah, I'm I'mglad that we finally got it
together and you were able totake some time.

(01:09:14):
I know I know I'm pulling timeaway from your family and you're
about to leave for work again,so I really appreciate you
coming out and talking and, yeah, you're living it a grand
adventure.
I think all of us hit somepoint who have hunted the back
country have thought, well, whatif I just turned this thing
into jerky and made it a lotlighter?
What if I just stayed hereuntil I ate the whole thing?

(01:09:35):
And, uh, it's very doable.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
You did it.
It's very doable.
I think a lot more people cando it.
You just got to learn moreabout me.
You know there's I mean, ittakes a long time just to like
figure out how to just keep meatfresh, to get it out to the
truck, right, like when youfirst start this sort of
adventure, right, you know, ifyou go online, it's just like
there'll be a hundred people askthe same question right before

(01:10:00):
season how do I keep the meatcool and get it out of the
mountains?
You know, like that's the veryfirst step, but once you you
know just get a better feel forfor what meat can handle and and
how to take care of it.
Like it's, it's very doable,yeah, yeah, I think it'll.
I think it'll be a thing.
I think now that I think I kindof broke the ice on that, I
think we'll probably see more ofthat.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
I think so too.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Yeah, I think it'll spread cause that it gives
people a lot of, a lot of um alot more options on the
mountains.
You know you if I mean that's abig limiting factor, getting the
meat out Right.
So you know, if that becomessomewhat common, you know we're
going to get guys a lot deeper.
I'm going to be a lot deepernow.
Now I'm comfortable with that.

(01:10:40):
I think I can do it and and notjust not just get the job done
and get meat out legally, butactually have a good product
that I want to eat during theyear.
I'm going to be going twice asfar.
I'm going to get older animalsand get into that more remote
stuff.
So I think it'll be, you know,I think it'll click for a lot of

(01:11:01):
people.
I think people do it Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
Cool Well.
Congratulations on a successfulyear and thanks again for the
conversation you bet.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Thanks for having me on, james.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Bye everybody the six ranch podcast is brought to you
by nick's handmade boots, afamily-owned company in spokane,
washington.
For many of my listeners,you've waited and prepared all
year for this.
Whether your pursuit is with arifle or a bow, early or late
season, big game or birds,another hunting season is

(01:11:33):
finally upon us.
Nick's Boots and the Six Ranchwant to wish you luck as you
head out into the field.
This season I'm wearing theNick's Boots Game Breakers
beginning with the archery elkseason.
Having worn this bootthroughout the summer around the
Six Ranch, I continue to beimpressed with how quiet the
boot is.
The rough out leather, leatherlaces and 365 stitch down

(01:11:56):
construction create a simpleboot that is supportive, durable
, comfortable and, mostimportantly, quieter than most
synthetic hunting boots.
For 60 years, nix has beenbuilding work boots for wildland
firefighters, tradespeople,hunters and ranchers, as well as
heritage styles for anyone whovalues quality footwear made in

(01:12:18):
America.
Visit nixbootscom today to findyour next pair of high-quality
American-made work boots.
Add a pair of boots and a workbelt to your cart and use the
code 6RANCH that's the numbersix and the word ranch to
receive the belt for free.
I just want to take a second andthank everyone who's written a

(01:12:39):
review, who has sent mail?
Who sent emails?
Who sent messages?
Your support is incredible andI also love running into you at
trade shows and events and justout on the hillside when we're
hunting.
I think that that's fantastic.
I hope you guys keepadventuring as hard and as often
as you can.
Art for the Six Ranch Podcastwas created by John Chatelain

(01:13:02):
and was digitized by CeliaHarlander.
By Celia Harlander, originalmusic was written and performed
by Justin Hay, and the Six RanchPodcast is now produced by Six
Ranch Media.
Thank you all so much for yourcontinued support of the show
and I look forward to next weekwhen we can bring you a brand
new episode.