April 9, 2025 • 59 mins
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Ever found yourself wanting to scream when someone launches into their hundredth "woe is me" monologue? Yep, we've been there. In this episode, we talk about one of the more isolating coping mechanisms: self-pity.
We break down exactly what makes self-pity so aggravating for loved ones—that toxic combination of helplessness, victim mentality, and emotional quicksand that seems to pull everyone down. Unlike genuine sadness or grief, self-pity comes with an external locus of control that rejects solutions while demanding endless reassurance. It's the "help me, help me, but don't help me" dynamic that leaves friends, partners, and even therapists feeling utterly powerless.
We explore the psychology behind why people get stuck in self-pitying patterns, the difference between legitimate suffering and wallowing, and the crucial distinction between self-pity ("poor me") and self-compassion ("poor us"). For those drowning in self-pity, we offer actionable strategies to reconnect with agency and break free from the cycle. For the exhausted supporters, we provide practical tools like "dropping the rope" and setting boundaries without drowning in guilt.
Whether you're dealing with a chronically self-pitying loved one or catching yourself falling into these patterns, the way out of self-pity isn't more reassurance—it's recognizing that even in our darkest moments, we always have a choice.
**If you're struggling with a loved one consumed with self pity, book a free call with Dr. Kibby to see you can get expert insights and strategies through KulaMind.
- If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
- Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hey guys, so last week we didan episode that was just like
really fun and I was excited totalk about it.
This week, we are doing anepisode that I'm excited to talk
about for a completelydifferent reason, which is it is
(00:23):
probably the trait that annoysme the most out of like any
human behavior, uh, and that isself-pity.
So I'm going to warn you rightnow that my levels of empathy
for this are going to be lowerthan on most other episodes, but
that also makes me jazzed totalk about it.
So, um Kivi, kick us off withhow Kula Mind can help deal with
(00:47):
self-pity.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Sure, well, if you have a loved one drowning in
self-pity and you're going totry to support them and not lose
your mind, um, we can help.
Well, I'm just kidding Um.
At Kula Mind, we help all ofyou really use the skills and
the all the insights that wetalk about, which is how to
break toxic cycles, um, in yourrelationships, how to support
(01:12):
someone else going through a lotof emotional difficulty.
That's probably also making ithard for you, um, but just if
you want relationship help ingeneral, applying these skills
that we talk about, um, checkout Kula Mind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom
, and essentially it's workingone-on-one with me and I am
basically in your pocket,texting you anytime you need
(01:33):
help.
So book a free call with me andyou can talk to me about how I
can help.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, kibbe, you were the person that I went to for
help when I was dealing with afriend drowning in self-pity, so
I can attest to thathelpfulness and you've been very
good at helping me not feelguilt after releasing that
relationship.
So there's my own little plug,kibbe.
Kick us off with the definitionof self-pity.
(02:00):
You just read me.
Oh my God, this is so good.
Take us off with the definitionof self-pity.
You just read me.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Oh my God, especially because when we were looking up
what is self-pity versus, likeyou know, feeling sad about your
life circumstances or being avictim, like what is the
definition of self-pity and Ijust love this Oxford languages
(02:23):
dictionary definition excessiveself-absorbed unhappiness over
one's own troubles?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I love the.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I love the dictionary dripping with judgment even the
dictionary is annoyed by thisbehavior why does it annoy you
so much?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
what about it like an example of how that this shows
up?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I mean, it's everywhere now these days I
don't know if I'm biased it'severywhere there's such a
self-absorption, there's such anarcissism in it, this feeling
that you know I've got it worsein the, you know in the world
than everybody else, that youknow there's nothing I can do
(03:06):
about it.
The universe hates me.
Um, just the like.
Look like everybody's going topity themselves.
Sometimes that's fine, Right,Like, if I break my arm I'm
going to pity myself for alittle while.
But this is when it extendspast you know the window of
reasonability and you know,obviously, with some patients, I
(03:30):
like with some of my patients,I have more patients with it.
Okay, how do I reframe that?
But some of my clients, I havemore patients with it than
others.
But there's such a helplessnessin it.
It's so.
I mean, it's associated withlike learned helplessness, right
, it's like, oh, life sucks,there's nothing I helplessness
in it.
It's associated with learnedhelplessness, right, it's like,
oh, life sucks, there's nothingI can do about it.
And it's like, okay, well then,there's nothing for me to do
(03:51):
about it either.
Unless you're interested inchanging this attitude, we don't
have any place to start really.
I mean, I'll start with BAusually, but behavioral
education.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
So you're, you're tying in.
So the the definition that Ijust read of the excessive
self-absorbed, like wallowing inone's own troubles, that's the
feeling, right?
And I was just thinking gosh, Imean, think about how many of
us have suffered from depressionor like legitimately hard times
and sat around being sad of fora long period of time about
(04:25):
your problems, right?
like kind of you know, depressedor ruminating or um, but you're
also adding the thing that'sprobably more like frustrating
for loved ones and other peopleand therapists is the
helplessness and it's like thelike.
What do you do about it?
It seems like not just feelingthat emotion, but also just not
(04:47):
doing anything to change it.
Am I right, or are you like?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
that's half of it, and then the other half of it is
the self absorption with.
It's not just I mean, thewallowing is annoying, but it's
this, it's the sense of thingsare worse for me than than other
people.
I, you know.
There's a, a quote that I'llread.
So the quote is from Chrisenough.
(05:10):
Emphasizes that, unlikeself-pity, which says poor me,
self-compassion says for us.
Um, and this really kind ofhighlights the fact that, like
self-pity involves like feelingalone and personally victimized
by the world, instead ofrealizing that struggle is a
(05:30):
shared human experience.
Um, when I I just ended afriendship over this in part, um
, in large part.
And when this person would talkabout how the universe hates
her and you know her life isterrible and she's so alone and
nobody cares and like, at thesame time, working with veterans
(05:51):
who have seen their friendsblow up or people burn alive or
little kids being beaten todeath, you know what I mean.
Like those people have it hardto die.
You know what I mean.
Like those people have it hardand it's even a little bit
frustrating when they wallow inself-pity, although they
honestly don't really Like herbasically being like I got
(06:13):
dumped and so therefore theuniverse hates me and, like I,
have problems with friendships,unable to recognize like her own
agency in.
That was really frustrating tome and I think that that is what
happens a lot with self-pity.
It's like everybody struggles.
Some people struggle way morethan other people, but even the
person who's struggling a toncan always find somebody who's
struggling worse.
(06:33):
And that doesn't mean you justtell yourself to buck up and get
over it.
That doesn't mean that at all.
You can have self-compassion,right, like, of course, you can
feel sorry for yourself, but if,if, if, it just extends and
extends and extends and then itinvolves helplessness and it
involves hatred against theuniverse and hatred against
others and all of this it's just, it's this bolus of maladaptive
(06:57):
coping mechanisms.
It's not going to get youanywhere.
It's just keeping you back andit's going to cause other people
to flee.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
where it's just keeping you back and it's going
to cause other people to flee.
Yeah, I mean, it's the agencyis a really interesting part of
it and I don't know what's goingon with the world.
I was just recently talking todifferent different
psychologists or therapists orcoaches and everyone's kind of
(07:28):
remarking how a lot of men arehaving trouble with self-pitying
.
And yeah, I think it's alsohard for us therapists who sit
there and hear a patient overand over like talk about how the
world is against them and Ithink that, like I don't know, I
think there's just a vibe inthe world where people don't
(07:50):
feel agency or they don'tunderstand their agency, which I
like.
I'll take the compassionate sidetoday.
It is confusing what agencymeans to you.
Right Like you could work superhard, you can be a really good
employee, but if you just rightnow happen to work in a federal
program, like you don't know ifyour job's at stake or the
(08:12):
economy goes up and down, peoplehave lost their jobs left and
right, and it just things feelout of our control.
Or maybe we're told that thingsare out of control, right, like
our data is being mined, youknow, and the Chinese are going
to take over, like we don't knowwhat control or power we
actually have as individuals,and I think the only power we
(08:34):
can like tangibly get is thepower of being seen and
understood for your feelings.
So if I want to feel powerful,or feel agency.
I'm going to write about my painin a public sphere and get eyes
on it, right, um, and thatfuels like a narcissistic, but
(08:55):
like covert, vulnerablenarcissism of like, look at my
pain, yeah, which means that?
Which means that there's like,um, this idea that I don't have
control over it, so I feel extraentitled to this suffering,
instead of something that I made, I did, I did for myself, right
?
So it's like all the pain Ifeel, all the blame to the
(09:17):
outside, but no accountabilityand no agency on my end, which
you know can be painful on itsown.
I'm not saying it's only forpeople who are like, like
terrible people who want to getattention, but sometimes it's
just like people don't feel likethey have control over things
that are happening to them.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Right, yeah, no, I I agree with everything you're
saying.
I think, emotionally, all Iwant to do is push back on any
justification for self pity, butI think it's a good point is
that when life feels more out ofour control, our locus of
control is going to externalizeand then we're going to feel
(09:58):
helpless.
And then then how do we makeourselves feel better if we
can't do anything other thanseek validation?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, and for people who don't know what that means,
external or internal locus ofcontrol is where you think the
control over your life and whathappens to you exists.
Is it external, like externalfactors, like other people, the
system, the, our society,whatever, or is it or luck?
(10:32):
Or is it internal, like I'mable to do stuff?
And there's a lot of researchshowing that people who have an
external locus of control,especially when it comes to
negative stuff no wait, both,it's both, but it's different.
So if you have external locusof control, you're more likely
to be depressed because youthink, well gosh, anything good
(10:55):
that happened to me is justsomeone else gave it to me.
I can't actually have anycontrol or say over that, and
then same with the negativestuff.
So it just is like I'm helpless, as you said.
So I just want to jump in withthat.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
No, that's helpful yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I mean.
So why is it?
Why is it so annoying for youLike, why do you like going into
your pushback against it?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I think that it demands a lot of me and then
rejects anything I try.
Other than validating thewarped worldview Wow.
And even then, sometimes yeah,say more.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
What does that look like?
What is it like a thing thatwould really get you about self
if you're listening to someonedrowning in self-pity.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
With her.
It was like, you know, she waslike went through a breakup with
my friend, um, who I'm veryclose with, and so it'd be like
he's a monster with no empathyand, you know, abandon me and
yada, yada, nobody loves me andhe's now happy with someone else
(12:12):
who sucks and just like intense, like negativity and criticism.
And if I agreed with any ofthat right, then that would be
bad.
Um, if I pushed back on anyevent, tried to reframe or
anything, then that would belike you're invalidating my
worldview and now I feel evenmore alone, which is the thing
about self-pity that I'll I'llpin um and get back to, and if I
(12:40):
try to offer solutions and it'slike clearly looking for
validation over solutions.
But the problem is is that theperson getting blasted with
self-pity all the time gets sickof validating.
They get compassion burnout,right.
I mean, this is like what theliterature is showing and it's
also just blindingly obvious ifyou've ever been in this dynamic
like it's.
It gets frustrating to validatesomebody's feelings that come
(13:03):
across as delusional and toxicand self-absorbed and
contemptuous.
You know what I mean.
Like it's just off, it's anoff-putting experience,
especially when that validationdoesn't seem to lead it to
anything except for moreself-pity.
So I think it puts the other,it puts the other person
(13:25):
listening to it in a bind thatfeels impossible to get out of,
because then if they bring anyof this up, then it's more
evidence that nobody loves themand the universe is against them
and they can't bring up theirfeelings or emotions and they're
even more alone.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, I think the bind is a really key point.
I think that negative feelingsabout yourself, even a lot of
them, like we've all been there,like when you started talking
and saying like, oh, I broke upwith someone, he's a monster and
he's with someone else, like,yeah, I've been there.
Anger, rumination, the negative, the rumination over oh, like
(14:04):
something that doesn't feel fair, like yeah, that's I, I I'm at
fault to you know, doing that alot.
Um, but the interesting thingthat you're saying is like it's
a self-absorption.
So there's something about likemaking you an audience right
and make it puts you in a placewhere you can't ignore it right.
(14:25):
Like it's kind of why I don'tlike when people talk at me,
when they come in and just starttalking at me, but I don't feel
like you're like talking to me.
I'm like I can't leave rightnow.
I can't do whatever I was doing.
This is really usurping myspace and time.
But like you don't see me as aperson, you're not like, I'm
just like kind of dehumanized ina real objectified.
(14:49):
And then there's like the powerand control.
So even thinking of thepsychodynamics about it I mean
we talk about this in DBT whenpeople with borderline
personality disorder or otherkinds of trauma.
They'll fall into what we callactive passivity, which means
which kind of looks like help me, help me, but don't help me.
(15:10):
There's nothing you can do tohelp me.
Help me.
I'm in such suffering, you know, but there's nothing I can do
about it.
You do it, oh no, you can't doit.
And the tricky part about it iswe are okay with that if it
actually gives that other personsomething to do to help them,
like if it's actually effective.
(15:30):
It's an effective way of askingfor help.
But when we talk about activepassivity in therapy, it's also
blocking the therapist's abilityto help.
But then what that does is itprojects the helplessness that
person feels helpless, and sothey're going to make you feel
helpless.
Help me, help me, help me, careabout me, care about me.
(15:53):
Oh, actually, you're not thatgood at it.
Nothing you do is working, soit makes you the helpless one.
Yes, it's crazy, right.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
It's not crazy, no, it's a beautiful way of putting
it.
Yeah, she would always say,like I just want to be witnessed
and I'm like, but I'm notinterested in watching this play
, you know?
Like there's nothing in it forme, right?
I don't.
The thing is is like, when youcome to another person and
(16:24):
you're in pain, like, and it's asomebody that loves you, like
they have a limited window oftolerance for getting nothing in
return.
And one of the things people canget in return is feeling the
self-confidence boost and theyou know, the joy that comes
(16:44):
from genuinely helping somebody.
So if you're able to co-createthat dynamic, then that's one
thing.
But if it's just watch me sit,I'm going to command your
attention, monopolize yourattention for no gain on your
part, forever that person isgoing to leave because it's not,
(17:06):
it's not interesting, itdoesn't generate any kind of
feelings of esteem or connection.
And then that person is goingto feel like I'm just an
unwitting participant, Like youjust want me to sit here and,
like, watch you, but you don'tactually give a shit about how I
feel or what's going on in mylife.
And then, of course, thisbrings up all sorts of issues
(17:29):
with envy.
I mean, if you think that theuniverse hates you and that
other people don't love you,then well, what about your
friend who has a good life, hassuccesses in life?
Is the self-pitying persongoing to be able to feel
happiness for you?
Probably not.
So it's like what can you evenbring to that person?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
for you probably not.
So it's like what can you evenbring to that person?
That might be a part ofnarcissism, the envy part, I
think.
I think that there's somethinginherent in your
conceptualization of self-pitythat might not be all of it, all
of self-pity that, like whatyou said before, needing to be
the most in pain needing to um,let's say what you just said not
(18:10):
be happy or not be able toengage in someone else's
happiness.
I feel like that is a little bitmore narcissism, because that's
a specialness right.
I have a special right to beself-pitying.
There are plenty of people,like patients or otherwise, who
I've experienced a lot ofself-pitying.
There are plenty of people,like patients or otherwise, who
I've experienced like a lot ofself-pity from who don't, who
(18:33):
are still able to be happy forsomeone else, not like the
happiest way because they'redepressed, but they might be
like I'm the worst, I'm terrible, nothing good happens to me.
Oh, my friend, I'm glad thatshe's happy, but you know so I
think it's like what you do withthat negativity makes a
difference of like narcissismversus just self pity.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I do think that what I've been experiencing lately
has the narcissistic bent, andso that's what is, you know, in
part riling me up.
But I do think it would bedifficult to be happy for other
people if you believe thatnobody loves you and that you're
fundamentally unlucky and thatyou're just helpless and a
victim of life circumstanceslike it I.
It would just be a tall ask, Ithink, to to then be happy for
(19:17):
somebody who is the universe's,you know, favorite child.
Um, so I so I don't know, but Imean, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I just don't think everyone who's who's uh
depressed also feels envious.
Some people are just like.
I don't even care how theymeasure up off.
I see what you're saying, but Ifeel like those are two
different things yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I mean.
I will say either way, though,if you are friends with somebody
who has self-pity and who iscapable of feeling happy for you
, or not, it can be difficult tobring up your own successes.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Excessive self-absorption, right Like
excessive and just like that isjust filling up the emotional
space.
Just, the agency is such aninteresting part.
It really is like I mean, wewere talking about this before,
but I could see how it getsreinforced at first, right Like
(20:19):
you get reassurance, you get alot of praise, you get a witness
.
Right, if I start talking abouthow hard my life is, like most
likely you're going to payattention and not bring it to
you Like under normalcircumstances.
So it's reinforced by theattention and support.
Yeah, and then at some point,if it doesn't, if it doesn't
(20:41):
lead to any change orimprovement, or even good like
positive feedback, like well,thank you so much for like
letting you know, letting mevent about my self-pity today.
I appreciate that Then for youit's just like I'm going to get
compassion fatigue.
I mean, I do remember when I wasin high school and had that
(21:03):
like really toxic relationshipand I was fighting all the time
and I was talking about it allthe time.
I was really wallowing it in itand um and probably in a more
anger, ruminant way, right, andmy friends eventually was were
like they had to stop talking tome about it.
One of my really good friendssaid I cannot'm sorry, I cannot
(21:24):
talk about this relationshipwith you anymore because it
seems to be just painful and itseems that you're not doing
anything about it to change it,get out of it like change.
You know it was just like yearsof the same thing.
Yeah, that's when friends burnout, loved ones burn out.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I know it's.
It's an interesting example theabusive relationship or the
shitty relationship, one Like I.
You know, I have another friendwho's in a shitty relationship,
not abusive, and she'll talkabout it a lot and I get
frustrated because I'm like justbreak up with him, come on, I
do not experience her selfpityingitying.
(22:05):
I think the difference is thatshe has kind of self-awareness
to not bring in the victimmentality.
It's more about like acomplaining and emoting about
life circumstances withoutsaying or me without saying like
I'm a victim circumstanceswithout saying, or me without
(22:28):
saying like I'm a victim and I.
But I think a similar thing canhappen with loved ones, where
people are going to get burntout on the relationship thing
too, because they're seeing itas this is a problem that can be
solved pretty simplyExcommunicate this guy or this
woman, right, and then you'll befree, and then this whole issue
will disappear, and that isenormously frustrating.
(22:51):
I mean, we've all been in those, we've all been in these
relationships.
Um, it's tough.
I have a little bit moresympathy for this again because
it's not as much of a victimmindset and I and I know what
it's like to be for your, foryour self-esteem and agency to
(23:12):
be seemingly hijacked by anotherperson where it just doesn't
feel as if you can get out of it.
It's not so much uh, theuniverse hates me, right, but
like, uh, I can't.
This person is making me feelboth loved and unlovable at the
same time and that is messingwith my self-concept to such a
degree that I don't, I can't getout of it.
(23:33):
But I know that my physicallike my physical being is is
like riding inside me and so Ifeel all this anxiety and
rumination, and I have to talkabout it and talk about it, and
then other people are going togive you the same advice over
and over again.
You're not going to take it.
Nation, and I have to talkabout it and talk about it, and
then other people are going togive you the same advice over
and over again.
You're not going to take it andthen and they leave too, but I
see it as a different process.
I don't know what about you?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is yeah.
I feel like this is where we'rekeep coming back to the agency
piece.
I feel like I have a reallylike can I do something about it
?
Right, being like hey, thissituation's hard, my
relationship sucks.
Versus like oh, poor me, whydoes this always happen to me?
Like, why do?
(24:13):
Why do these people keep doingthis to me?
Instead of saying like maybe I'mthinking the wrong guys or
maybe I'm doing things right.
Like I struggled with theromantic relationships the most
because I've had people, I'vedated people who really struggle
with self-pity.
It was really frustrating withme At first.
(24:37):
I was like, oh, I'm going to behere for you and help you, and
I wouldn't call it self-pity.
In my head I'd be likeself-pity almost kind of sounds
like it's your fault, you shouldrecognize.
But I was like like, oh, you'rejust sad and depressed.
But then when you're in arelationship with someone and
one of them is drowning inself-pity, that means that
(24:57):
they're dropping all theiragency and control and putting
all the responsibility on theworld, aka you right like, if
it's like oh god, my life sucks.
This is really.
Oh, I can't believe this ishappening to me and what we're
talking about is our lives.
Well, I'm the only one left whomanufactured this thing that's
(25:20):
hurting you, right?
And I think it's been hard forme because I'm a really like
doer when it comes to hardthings and challenges.
I may overcome it, say, by likedoing too much, but I tend to
like really dive into actionwhen I'm upset.
So, I am a very agentic, likeI'm the one who drives a lot of
(25:45):
things and decisions right, soI'm an easy target for like,
like all the responsibility weput on me.
I'll give you an example.
There was, um I had a boyfriendwho um didn't couldn't get
around without a car, and he hada lot of financial problems, in
part because he um got firedfrom his job and refused to get
(26:07):
another one and this is actuallynot my ex-husband.
He was like, oh, I don't have ajob, and I'm not going to look
for one.
Poor me, life is so hard, Idon't have any money and
wouldn't seem to want to changeit.
And so he was looking to get acar and we were talking about,
(26:30):
you know, different used carsthat are like affordable within
what he had and what he couldmanage.
And he decided to go and get aloan for a brand-new car.
It was like $30,000.
And I was dumb enough toco-sign on that lease Because he
(26:52):
was like oh, but I, you know, Ineed a car and if I were ever
to get a job, I was going to getright.
So I'm like fine, I'll co-signon the lease.
And so he had $30,000 in debtbecause he got a brand new car.
He insisted on getting a brandnew car.
And then, when we were breakingup, he started.
(27:12):
First of all, we were breakingup because he got frustrated and
was like stormed upstairs and Iwent upstairs to see what he
was doing.
He was packing furiously and hewas just like I'm out, I'm done
, we're over.
And I was like I'm really gladyou're saying this, because I've
(27:35):
been, I've been thinking aboutthis for a while too.
I'm glad, you know, I'm gladthis is mutual.
And he was like what?
And he, like, broke down, waslike screaming, crying, and then
he ran outside, and I'll neverforget it.
He ran outside and I ran tofollow him.
He was like I can't believeyou're leaving me with all of
this debt.
How could you do this to me,how could you leave me with this
debt?
(27:55):
And I at the time I just feltso bad.
I got back together with him.
I was like, oh, I'm sorry, youknow like.
And then later on I was like Ididn't tell you to buy that
fancy new car.
What are you talking about?
But that was that was like themost annoying and a lot of
(28:19):
things like that happen but anannoying version of self-pity
where it's just like you're just, you're just like you're
creating bad things for yourlife.
And, yes, there are a lot ofexternal circumstances that are
hard yeah, but yeah, you know,um, it's not, it's not all the
outside.
It's also like what can we?
(28:39):
What can we do about it?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
right.
There's just a fundamental likelack of self-awareness that
comes with a lot of self-pityjust like in that again is the
lack of agents because they'renot seeing their own agency in
these situations.
Um, but a lot of times when Isee self-pity I've got two major
(29:02):
camps of it in my head.
I think just experiences thatthat I've had with it.
One is that more kind ofnarcissistic, self-absorbed
self-pitying and one comes fromchronic pain.
I like really struggle withtreating chronic pain in part
(29:23):
because if you have chronic painit's hard for me to see how you
wouldn't be depressed Like me.
Having a headache just makes melike incapable of productivity.
So like imagining my whole bodybeing in pain constantly, or a
part of my body, whatever, isjust like oh my God.
(29:43):
And so that kind of self-pityis also frustrating for me, but
it's far more understandablebecause that person actually has
to go above and beyond to findtheir agency than the other camp
.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I would argue like emotional pain could also feel
like that.
There's some people withsuicidal thoughts and tendencies
that, like it really feels likea physical.
I can't control this, and Ithink that's the important part.
If you want to think about itin a sympathetic way, the people
who are talking about um mightactually feel like they are not
(30:26):
in control of what bad thingsare happening.
For example, if there's somepeople, especially with
personality disorders, who justlike are mean and damaging to
the relationships and then belike, why does everyone leave me
?
I don't understand.
It's because they don't havethe awareness to see their
agency like what they, what theydid to cause it, and which
(30:47):
means that they can't see whatthey can do to stop it Right.
So there's that, that blindness.
But then it's another thing.
If you go, you can do this.
Here are the tools.
Go for it, and they don't wantto take control.
Now that's a different question.
Like like, what is reinforcingyou, not taking responsibility
(31:10):
or not saying you could changeyour situation?
What does that do for you?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I completely agree with you, and I mean part of
this is just like my ownfrustration biasing me.
Of course, emotional pain canfeel worse than chronic pain in
certain circumstances and theway that you're raised right or
the trauma you've suffered isgoing to make it feel as
immovable and adaptable asphysical pain.
I guess there's still part ofme that's like.
With the person who is doingthis from an emotional, painful
(31:36):
place, it is easier to say tothem in a in a sense like here
are your resources, go dosomething with them.
When somebody has chronic pain,you can say here are your
resources, but they're stilllimited in what they can do with
it.
Like they, they, they are goingto lose hobbies, they are going
(31:56):
to lose like travel, they'regoing to lose mobility, they're
going to, you know, like, losesensory ability.
There's just a real loss thereand no matter what they do,
there's still going to be alimitation.
And I mean you could make thesame argument with emotional
(32:17):
pain, but I don't know.
But it's just like sometimeswith chronic pain, I can feel
the helplessness very easilyBecause I know that whatever I
can do, it's not going to getrid of the fundamental problem
and I don't always feelemotional pain.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I think that's the key right.
Like if you, if you're thinkingabout physical pain, like
there's, I can't actually dosomething about it, and with the
emotional pain, you're like youcan do something about it.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's hardto say.
I mean I think that when wetalk about like what, what's the
um, what to do about it, likelike what, what are the tips?
(32:54):
Tips are, if we think aboutlike how do us therapists deal
with patients who are like, oh,everything's the worst, life
sucks, there's not got nothing.
I can't believe all these peopledid this to me in dbt.
I like this like metaphor.
That was really nice and I, um,I like the spirit of it.
It's like you, you could tellthese people who pity themselves
(33:16):
okay, you might not have pushedyou into the pool, but you're
gonna have to swim out of it andthat I, I just love that.
It's like fine, you know, Ithink you could lean in with
like validation for the sadness.
They're probably feeling theemotions, but it could be like,
(33:38):
yeah, all this crappy stuffhappened to you because of bad
luck, external circumstances,whatever.
What are you going to do aboutit?
You tell me what you're going todo about it, because no one is
going to rescue you from this.
You might attribute the problemto the world, but the world's
not going to get you out of it,unfortunately.
(33:58):
So what are you going to doabout it?
And I think in that, in thatspirit, we would like prompt the
patient to be like all right,what do you think is going to
help?
You tell me, drop the rope.
Like you tell me, I'm not goingto keep pulling.
Try to pull and fight againstyour beliefs that you don't have
(34:20):
any control, right, fine, like,what are we gonna do?
Are we gonna stay thismiserable?
We can do that, but that's achoice and that is agency is
choosing to pity yourself, andif they say I don't know like
okay, well, I don't know either.
(34:42):
I guess we're gonna wallow.
What does that look like?
What do we just felt?
But what if?
Like what do you?
How would you change if theworld was completely out of your
control?
Bad things could happenrandomly.
What are you gonna do?
Like, let's just accept thatyou have zero control.
Now what?
(35:09):
I need to get brave enough tosay these things to people I
have said similar things intherapy when I'll be a little
bit more genuine and be like.
You know, I've noticed that I'mgiving like, I'm really working
hard here with you.
I, you talk, you say all thesethings and I'm like what else
(35:30):
can I throw at them?
What can I do to support them?
And I'm trying all these thingsand nothing works and I feel so
helpless.
Do you feel helpless?
Yeah, we feel pretty helpless.
What are we going to do now?
What does helpless feel like?
Let's sit in that for a while.
(35:51):
You know, I think that I woulddo that.
I would slow down, but that'sthat's me working with it.
As a friend.
I'd be like I'm part of yourworld man, I don't, I got to do
stuff.
I got to take out the trash, Igot.
You know, I got to do stuff, Igot to take out the trash I got
you know.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, I think, like I , I I mean, I think this is,
this is the thing that brings upthe most helplessness for me,
and so I, I don't my like tipsmight be non-existent this
episode, I don't know.
So I'm glad you're taking thereins here.
Um, I do think that part ofthis is like recognizing how
(36:25):
maladaptive this is going to be.
I mean, the research here isincredibly scant, but you know
what there is was talking about.
You know all the things we'vetalked about thus far, but also
this sense of like, the socialrepercussions of this and the
(36:51):
mental health repercussions,which is like, as you ruminate
with this external locus ofcontrol, with this helplessness,
you're only going to make yoursituation worse, because you're
going to be generating andgenerating and generating more
and more thoughts about your ownhelplessness, about how
everything sucks, about life'sunfairness, and then what's
going to happen is that you'regoing to want people to rescue
(37:12):
you and they will at first,which also will continue to
generate this, and then you'regoing to have this dual process
of self-hatred and other hatred,like I'm so terrible, why
aren't people rescuing me?
They're so terrible, and that'sgoing to push people away
extremely quickly, and so thenyou're going to feed more and
(37:32):
more into the isolation.
So I think, like step one ofthis is recognizing that it's
happening, and I again I want tobe clear, like this doesn't
mean suppress.
I mean it might initially ifyou want to keep your friends,
but you know, this doesn't mean,like it doesn't mean that it's
not justifiable to feel bad foryourself, like shitty things
(37:54):
happen in life and of courseyou're going to feel bad for
yourself.
Some things do suck, things dosuck.
There is a kind of injusticementality though that I think
happens a lot with this, whereit starts with an assumption
that life should be fair andit's just not fair to me, the
rules aren't working to me andthat's never going to get you
(38:14):
anywhere, because everybody elseis existing in this unfair
world too and they're attemptingto make it work, and so this
like justice, you know, mindsetis just like it's not going to
get you anywhere because you'renot accepting the reality of
this, of your, of your life,which is like the world does not
give a shit about you.
People do, some people therewas.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
There is some research that we found that said
that self-pity might actuallybe a good, a helpful adaptive
response to recognizing when youare helpless right like okay.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Well, first of all, this is a philosophical paper,
it's not a psychological paper,so this was not an empirical
study.
So I just want to yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I do want to recognize there might be some
situations where you pityyourself a little bit right like
if you're just like pluggingaway and suddenly it hits you
how hard things have been or howhappy some institutions and
groups and communities andsocial norms are for certain
people you know, like somethings just aren't fair and you
(39:20):
might have a moment where you'relike up, like kind of wallow in
it and go, oh my god, like likeI had cancer last year.
You know, raising a two and ahalf year old, like what you
know, like I, I feel bad formyself right now um, but like
with anything that coping withthat is leaning into the sadness
(39:41):
, the shock, sadness, anger,like the feelings involved, and
not like spinning in your headwhy it isn't fair and why you
can't do anything about it, butwhich, like spoiler alert,
sometimes ruminating in yourmind like turning things over
and over, is a way to avoid theemotion.
Right, blame it, go and thinkabout all the people who are to
blame.
Feels productive, but it's notsitting with the sadness that
(40:05):
things turned out the way theywere.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, I just want to read a quote from this paper.
So basically it says theemotional process of self-pity
allows people to recognizeinjustice in the world without
moving on and ignoring it, whilethe price is self-isolation,
it's also a way to avoidself-delusional mechanisms.
Isolation, it's also a way toavoid self delusional mechanisms
.
And then, because it basicallybecause it isolates you it
(40:27):
provides time and space totransform themselves by
establishing a specific type ofdialogue with themselves,
whatever that means.
But I think, like I don't knowif I am conceptualizing self
pity in the same way that thispaper is, because to me the
paper seems like it's talkingmore about self-compassion.
I mean, of course, like this isthe thing like on the one hand,
life's not fair and on theother hand, sometimes life is
(40:48):
really not fair and you do haveto fight it, and so that's
that's kind of a difficulty.
But I think like and and thisis where my kind of like I lean
too far and then never victimizemyself, camp, or sometimes then
I'll get victimized because I'mI'm not recognizing my own, uh,
(41:08):
I'm not recognizing theinjustice of the situation, that
someone's treating me like shit, or that maybe I should take
care of myself more.
So that's the other side of thecoin, I suppose I guess.
But what's interesting right,is that in this philosophy
papers, conceptualizationself-pity is agentic.
It allows somebody to like, ifyou just sit around recognizing
(41:34):
injustice, that's completelyuseless, like it's probably
better to just not think thatyou're in an unjust world unless
you do something about it.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
And that takes a duty .
Yeah, right, I would say thatin in that sense, I've had self
like helpful self-pity momentsthat unhelpful self-pity moments
too, don't don't get me wrong.
But times when I, um have beenlike trying to work through each
day and trying to get throughthe day, feeling like crap.
Right, this past year, like allthe treatments I felt like crap
most of the time and somethings I'm like slower on, some
(42:13):
things that I'd like to be mymind doesn't work as fast like I
just I'm just like operating atlike 60 percent.
There are times where I was justlike wallowing in that
excessive self-absorbedself-pity, where I was just like
I have cancer, like I gotcancer and it sucks.
It just sucks, you know like.
(42:35):
There are other days where I'mlike no, I could try to eat
healthier and and try to figureout why I, you know.
But there's there's a lot ofchance, there's randomness,
there's there's external locusof control.
I, I guess, in part like I justgot a bad hand with cancer, um,
and sometimes it just helped tohave those days.
As it's that paper said slowingdown, recognizing injustice yes
(43:01):
.
I also felt like this is hardfor a lot of people with cancer
or a lot of different illnessesLike I.
I think I couldn't connect tolike a human suffering on that
level, but like there were somedays where it just was helpful
just to sit around being likepoor me, yeah, then getting
myself out of it If I stayedthere for too long.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
I think that would be isolating and not helpful I
don't know what you did withalex, but with me at least you
protected yourself from thesocial, socially isolating
qualities of self-pity which Ithink involve so like.
One thing we know aboutself-pitying individuals is that
(43:44):
they have got a lot of likeanger, and that tends to be
anger in meaning like they don't.
They're not necessarily likethrowing plates against walls,
but they're like.
They're like angrily ruminating, it's like going over like
injustice scripts and you're Ididn't really get any of that
from you Not saying that wouldhave been a terrible thing, but
like chronically.
You know, it's just like it isme against the world, it is me
(44:09):
against.
Therefore, like you right, likeit's me against other people
can really push people away.
But yeah, I mean I would have.
Anybody should probably feelpretty bad for themselves if
they've got cancer.
So I don't really know what theright although, but it just
(44:31):
falls.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
It falls on the helplessness, like if I were to
sit around talking about, like,oh, poor me, I have cancer, you
know it would be valid for me tosay that, but it would do all
the things that we talked aboutbefore, which is making you feel
helpless, me feel helpless,Like there's nothing you can do.
If I am like my life sucksbecause of cancer, you just be
like, yeah, yeah, there'snothing I can do to help that.
(44:55):
But I think you're talkingabout a very particular type of
self-pity which throws the blameon you, attacks you, Right, or
just me as part of thecollective human race.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I mean, like this girl was never basically saying
like you are the source of allmy problems or like you're.
I mean sometimes she would getpretty mean to me it was more
because I was a participant andlike in the human race and like
wasn't being helpful enough.
But I mean I like I thinkthere's a balance thing.
Like you just weren'tinundating people with self pity
(45:32):
, you did have it.
See, I never really heard a lotof like poor me.
It almost feels like more likepoor us, meaning all of us with
cancer or who could get cancer,like, which I think is again
interesting interesting,different differentiation that
(45:54):
you said.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
I have a reason, I have a legitimate reason to feel
sad about myself, and so Ithink what you're talking are
you talking about people who,like, feel sad for stupid
reasons.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
When you're talking to your therapist, your
therapist is going to say youhave great reasons for feeling
bad for yourself and you don'tneed to have a quote, unquote
legitimate reason.
But when you're talking aboutfriends, you're talking about
just like being sociallysuccessful.
Like there's a world ofdifference between having cancer
and going through a breakup orhaving cancer and you know, even
(46:33):
like my cat dying, you know, Imean it's just like people are
going to take that into account,even if, like I mean, the is is
like the person going through areally horrible breakup, like
maybe it was a really horriblebreakup.
Maybe to like abandonment is areally huge issue for them, it
is the love of their life.
Like of course, that can be agood reason to feel self pity,
(46:55):
but just socially speaking, wedo have, like, whether we like
it or not, we have differentexpectations about what people
are going to wallow over, andcancer is at the top of the list
Cancer and grief right.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Yeah, I mean it is.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
it would be pretty boring if I, if I were to like
go on and on about it, but soyeah, but, but yeah but I mean,
I just think we're talking aboutlike you have to strike a
balance, like nobody's nevergoing to feel sorry for
themselves, ever.
So there has to be a balance andthere's going to be different
components that feed into thatbalance.
One is going to be theperceived legitimacy of your
complaint.
Another is going to be like howmuch do you make it about this
(47:34):
sort of like delusional sense ofinjustice, or like what the
world owes you or you know whatI mean or hasn't given you?
Another is going to be justabout like the amount and the
duration that you unload onpeople, um.
Another is going to be like howmuch is anger involved?
Another is going to be how muchdo you just not accept anything
(47:55):
the other person is saying andjust want them to witness you in
it?
I mean, I think, if we'rethinking about tips for this,
one of the biggest tips is justlike realizing whether this is
serving you or not, because,ultimately, what these people
want is to be less alone, andthis is going to make them more
alone.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Or think about why, like how it is serving you.
I think if you are wallowing inself-pity or if you're watching
a loved one wallow in self-pity, you can think to yourself what
is reinforcing this?
Right, it could be attention.
Right, just pure attention.
It could be that someone elsejumps in and helps you and is
(48:36):
like pulling you and being thesource of like, come on, you can
do it Like let's fit you.
Right, like giving the agencyto someone else.
It could be because it relievesyou of having to do anything
hard that you don't want to,like work in therapy.
You know your circumstances,right, like you just don't want
to.
Yeah, so I mean, you couldthink about what is reinforcing
(48:59):
it and like try taking it away.
Right, like, if you notice thatyour loved one keeps doing oh,
life is so hard and gets themoff the hook of a house chore,
you'd be like, yeah, that's hard, go ahead to take out the trash
.
Now, you know like give them,keep giving them the agency.
(49:20):
Don't, don't feed intowhatever's reinforcing this,
like helplessness, activepassivity.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Right yeah, so there's tips for the people who
are self-pitying and there'stips for the people who are
enablers or, you know, victimsof self-pity.
I mean, for the self-pity A, Iwould read Victor Hugo's Man's
Search for Meaning, because thenyou're really going to feel bad
about yourself for pityingyourself, because then you're
really going to feel bad aboutyourself for pitying yourself.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
I remember when Jacqueline and I did during
COVID, we did a book club thatinvolved reading Viktor Frankl's
A Man's Search for Meaning.
So we just read about a mantrying to survive the Holocaust
as our way of coping with COVID.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
It was fun?
Yeah, because if you're pityingyourself for anything less than
being at Auschwitz, then you'regoing to feel like a giant
pussy after reading it.
So that's my number onesuggestion.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, it's graphic with what happens there, you
know some good better than thanwhat Victor Franco won.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Um, I think, too, is just like get really real with
yourself about the short andlong-term consequences of this.
Like you're saying, this isserving some sort of function.
Be really clear on what that isand then be really clear on the
long-term consequences, whichare probably going to be
isolation and a continuation ofhelplessness and a low mood and
what you know, and decide foryourself whether that's worth it
.
Like, maybe it is, I think.
If it's not worth it, oppositeaction is a good thing.
(50:44):
Fake it till you make it.
You know like, act as if you'resomebody who does not pity
themselves at all.
Act as if you are somebody whohas agency.
Try things out.
You know what I mean.
Like, and this is this is why Igo for behavioral activation a
lot when this is the case,because I'm just like look like
it's.
It's going to be a hard to havetime to pity yourself if you're,
you know, doing a bunch of shitall the time and rediscovering
your own agency.
Right, um, what else?
(51:08):
Uh, get in touch with yourvalues.
That's another part ofbehavioral activation.
It's like and this is whatViktor Frankl was saying, you
know, like, even when I am as,even when the universe is
entirely out of my control.
I'm still in control of onething, and that is me.
So what do I want to dedicatemyself to?
Do I, even if I pity myself,even if I feel that life is
(51:31):
unjust?
Do I want to be an essentiallykind person?
Do I, you know?
Do I want to be a generousperson?
Do I want to be a funny person?
Do you know, whatever the casemay be like, you can still be
that.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
To feel sad, to feel the emotion driving this like it
could.
It could be a sadness somewhere, a sadness a time where someone
took agency from you, you know,or just returning to this
feeling of helplessness and whatthat, what that's connected to.
So just like emotional, youknow experiencing.
(52:07):
Yeah, for the loved ones, I trydoing Cut and run.
Just kidding, break that toxiccycle.
I mean, I would say, drop therope.
That's a DBT technique whereyou just stop pushing that
person, just go.
All right, what should we do?
What?
What do you want to do?
So like giving them the thefloor the choice right, um, and
(52:32):
then I I like the trick of ofdifferent sneaky ways to show
people that actually have agency.
So, for example, like what wetalked about, like it's a choice
not to do anything right.
Like we say okay, there's fourways to solve a problem.
Any problem that you have is atherapist like hack.
(52:56):
If you have a problem, thereare four things you could do.
One is do something about it,right, solve the problem.
Two is think differently aboutthe problem.
See it from another side.
Get a new perspective.
Three, accept it for what it is, just be like this is what it
is, all, right.
Four is wallow in it and staymiserable, right.
(53:18):
So you'd be like out of thefour choices, it seems like
number four is the winner, andeven wallowing in lack of agency
is a choice.
Right, little things like that,but sometimes you could just be
like or if you want to actuallybe nice, you know, you'd be
like wow, look at this thingthat you did, that had agencies,
(53:38):
isn't that great, you know,let's reinforce that and pay
attention and ignore when theywallow in self-pity.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
I've never presented that to anybody and I'm going to
now and I'm really excitedabout it.
The four choices, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, yeah, right, it's so simple, it's true.
You have four things you coulddo, and the fourth one is to
like do nothing and be miserable.
It's like, ok, okay, that's achoice and there might be
reasons why they choose that,because maybe it's too difficult
to think of other things orsomething else is more painful,
and so wallowing and letting itdrown out everything else is, uh
(54:15):
, working in some way, butthat's really good okay, so you
can present the four choices.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
I think that one of the biggest hits for loved ones
this might literally be aseparate episode is to get in
touch with their own.
Is guilt keeping them in?
And, if so, is justified guilt,because it's very hard to leave
(54:46):
somebody who feels as if nobodyloves them, nobody gets it,
nobody cares, nobody sticksaround.
It's very hard to hear that andthen decide to be the person
who won't stick around, who willremove themselves.
I'm currently revved up to dothis episode because I'm getting
(55:07):
over a weeks-long hangover ofguilt about ending my friendship
.
I'm sure that guilt will creepin again, but you know, I mean I
felt this way breaking up withmy ex too, where it was just I
mean he had a slightly differentpresentation, but it's just
like how could I leave thisperson?
How could I leave them to theirown devices?
(55:28):
They don't have any devices.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
I'm their, I'm their device they're not as helpless
as you think they are.
Yeah, and then that's the storyfor everyone involved the loved
ones, you, you know, I think ifsomeone feels so helpless and I
might legitimately feel it likethey're treating themselves as
(55:50):
helpless and you are like youknow you're like, oh no, how can
I do this to this poor,helpless baby?
All the problem here they aregrown-ass adults.
They'll be hurt.
They'll probably add this tothe bank of like why life is
unfair but, like you know,that's their choice.
Speaker 1 (56:13):
Yeah, yeah.
And that goes back to them justlike not accepting their own
role in things or, if they do,being like well, I fucked that
up, I guess there's nothing Ican.
I'm just doomed to fuck it upagain lack of insight.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
Insight is it.
We could do a whole otherepisode on insight.
Insight is so fascinating, butwhen it's lacking, it's really
tough.
It's really tough for the lovedones, you know, yeah, they
don't orient themselves in spacein relation to you like.
They're just like.
Here are my thoughts and youjust have to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Like yeah, I think I get.
I get pulled into being theirinsight or to thinking that I
can can be their insight when Iactually can't.
We're just like let me help youthink differently about this.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
Like let me try to convince you of a different
reality, like show you what lifecould be or you know whatever,
and it's like it goes nowherenowhere, and then some people
will take that in and use itwell, and they'll that's the
people you should put energiestowards right who take your
suggestions or help or supportand go.
Thank you, now that helped melook at this differently.
Yeah, the loved ones.
Speaker 1 (57:16):
Just like stop hanging out with them, you know
okay well, I'm currently feelinga lot of self pity because I
come up with these clever littlegive us 5 star ratings quips
and not getting as many as Iwant.
It's really not fair.
I don't feel like anybodyreally cares about us or listens
(57:36):
.
But if you want to prove uswrong, even though I'm just
going to come back next week andsay the same thing, guess if I
start reading on Apple Podcastsand Spotify and leave us a
comment.
We love the comments.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
Yeah, send us a message on the show notes where
it says send us a text, want tohear from you guys I'll say that
, yeah, alrighty, we'll see youguys next week.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Oh, we have an amazing guest next week.
Should we just tease thatamazing guest?
You're gonna love her.
She's, uh, in the sphere rightnow, going back to our reality
tv roots and uh, so get excitedfor that.
We'll see you next week.
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(58:23):
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(58:48):
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(59:09):
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© transcript Emily Beynon.
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hey guys, so last week we didan episode that was just like
really fun and I was excited totalk about it.
This week, we are doing anepisode that I'm excited to talk
about for a completelydifferent reason, which is it is
(00:23):
probably the trait that annoysme the most out of like any
human behavior, uh, and that isself-pity.
So I'm going to warn you rightnow that my levels of empathy
for this are going to be lowerthan on most other episodes, but
that also makes me jazzed totalk about it.
So, um Kivi, kick us off withhow Kula Mind can help deal with
(00:47):
self-pity.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Sure, well, if you have a loved one drowning in
self-pity and you're going totry to support them and not lose
your mind, um, we can help.
Well, I'm just kidding Um.
At Kula Mind, we help all ofyou really use the skills and
the all the insights that wetalk about, which is how to
break toxic cycles, um, in yourrelationships, how to support
(01:12):
someone else going through a lotof emotional difficulty.
That's probably also making ithard for you, um, but just if
you want relationship help ingeneral, applying these skills
that we talk about, um, checkout Kula Mind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom
, and essentially it's workingone-on-one with me and I am
basically in your pocket,texting you anytime you need
(01:33):
help.
So book a free call with me andyou can talk to me about how I
can help.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, kibbe, you were the person that I went to for
help when I was dealing with afriend drowning in self-pity, so
I can attest to thathelpfulness and you've been very
good at helping me not feelguilt after releasing that
relationship.
So there's my own little plug,kibbe.
Kick us off with the definitionof self-pity.
(02:00):
You just read me.
Oh my God, this is so good.
Take us off with the definitionof self-pity.
You just read me.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Oh my God, especially because when we were looking up
what is self-pity versus, likeyou know, feeling sad about your
life circumstances or being avictim, like what is the
definition of self-pity and Ijust love this Oxford languages
(02:23):
dictionary definition excessiveself-absorbed unhappiness over
one's own troubles?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I love the.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I love the dictionary dripping with judgment even the
dictionary is annoyed by thisbehavior why does it annoy you
so much?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
what about it like an example of how that this shows
up?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I mean, it's everywhere now these days I
don't know if I'm biased it'severywhere there's such a
self-absorption, there's such anarcissism in it, this feeling
that you know I've got it worsein the, you know in the world
than everybody else, that youknow there's nothing I can do
(03:06):
about it.
The universe hates me.
Um, just the like.
Look like everybody's going topity themselves.
Sometimes that's fine, Right,Like, if I break my arm I'm
going to pity myself for alittle while.
But this is when it extendspast you know the window of
reasonability and you know,obviously, with some patients, I
(03:30):
like with some of my patients,I have more patients with it.
Okay, how do I reframe that?
But some of my clients, I havemore patients with it than
others.
But there's such a helplessnessin it.
It's so.
I mean, it's associated withlike learned helplessness, right
, it's like, oh, life sucks,there's nothing I helplessness
in it.
It's associated with learnedhelplessness, right, it's like,
oh, life sucks, there's nothingI can do about it.
And it's like, okay, well then,there's nothing for me to do
(03:51):
about it either.
Unless you're interested inchanging this attitude, we don't
have any place to start really.
I mean, I'll start with BAusually, but behavioral
education.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
So you're, you're tying in.
So the the definition that Ijust read of the excessive
self-absorbed, like wallowing inone's own troubles, that's the
feeling, right?
And I was just thinking gosh, Imean, think about how many of
us have suffered from depressionor like legitimately hard times
and sat around being sad of fora long period of time about
(04:25):
your problems, right?
like kind of you know, depressedor ruminating or um, but you're
also adding the thing that'sprobably more like frustrating
for loved ones and other peopleand therapists is the
helplessness and it's like thelike.
What do you do about it?
It seems like not just feelingthat emotion, but also just not
(04:47):
doing anything to change it.
Am I right, or are you like?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
that's half of it, and then the other half of it is
the self absorption with.
It's not just I mean, thewallowing is annoying, but it's
this, it's the sense of thingsare worse for me than than other
people.
I, you know.
There's a, a quote that I'llread.
So the quote is from Chrisenough.
(05:10):
Emphasizes that, unlikeself-pity, which says poor me,
self-compassion says for us.
Um, and this really kind ofhighlights the fact that, like
self-pity involves like feelingalone and personally victimized
by the world, instead ofrealizing that struggle is a
(05:30):
shared human experience.
Um, when I I just ended afriendship over this in part, um
, in large part.
And when this person would talkabout how the universe hates
her and you know her life isterrible and she's so alone and
nobody cares and like, at thesame time, working with veterans
(05:51):
who have seen their friendsblow up or people burn alive or
little kids being beaten todeath, you know what I mean.
Like those people have it hardto die.
You know what I mean.
Like those people have it hardand it's even a little bit
frustrating when they wallow inself-pity, although they
honestly don't really Like herbasically being like I got
(06:13):
dumped and so therefore theuniverse hates me and, like I,
have problems with friendships,unable to recognize like her own
agency in.
That was really frustrating tome and I think that that is what
happens a lot with self-pity.
It's like everybody struggles.
Some people struggle way morethan other people, but even the
person who's struggling a toncan always find somebody who's
struggling worse.
(06:33):
And that doesn't mean you justtell yourself to buck up and get
over it.
That doesn't mean that at all.
You can have self-compassion,right, like, of course, you can
feel sorry for yourself, but if,if, if, it just extends and
extends and extends and then itinvolves helplessness and it
involves hatred against theuniverse and hatred against
others and all of this it's just, it's this bolus of maladaptive
(06:57):
coping mechanisms.
It's not going to get youanywhere.
It's just keeping you back andit's going to cause other people
to flee.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
where it's just keeping you back and it's going
to cause other people to flee.
Yeah, I mean, it's the agencyis a really interesting part of
it and I don't know what's goingon with the world.
I was just recently talking todifferent different
psychologists or therapists orcoaches and everyone's kind of
(07:28):
remarking how a lot of men arehaving trouble with self-pitying
.
And yeah, I think it's alsohard for us therapists who sit
there and hear a patient overand over like talk about how the
world is against them and Ithink that, like I don't know, I
think there's just a vibe inthe world where people don't
(07:50):
feel agency or they don'tunderstand their agency, which I
like.
I'll take the compassionate sidetoday.
It is confusing what agencymeans to you.
Right Like you could work superhard, you can be a really good
employee, but if you just rightnow happen to work in a federal
program, like you don't know ifyour job's at stake or the
(08:12):
economy goes up and down, peoplehave lost their jobs left and
right, and it just things feelout of our control.
Or maybe we're told that thingsare out of control, right, like
our data is being mined, youknow, and the Chinese are going
to take over, like we don't knowwhat control or power we
actually have as individuals,and I think the only power we
(08:34):
can like tangibly get is thepower of being seen and
understood for your feelings.
So if I want to feel powerful,or feel agency.
I'm going to write about my painin a public sphere and get eyes
on it, right, um, and thatfuels like a narcissistic, but
(08:55):
like covert, vulnerablenarcissism of like, look at my
pain, yeah, which means that?
Which means that there's like,um, this idea that I don't have
control over it, so I feel extraentitled to this suffering,
instead of something that I made, I did, I did for myself, right
?
So it's like all the pain Ifeel, all the blame to the
(09:17):
outside, but no accountabilityand no agency on my end, which
you know can be painful on itsown.
I'm not saying it's only forpeople who are like, like
terrible people who want to getattention, but sometimes it's
just like people don't feel likethey have control over things
that are happening to them.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Right, yeah, no, I I agree with everything you're
saying.
I think, emotionally, all Iwant to do is push back on any
justification for self pity, butI think it's a good point is
that when life feels more out ofour control, our locus of
control is going to externalizeand then we're going to feel
(09:58):
helpless.
And then then how do we makeourselves feel better if we
can't do anything other thanseek validation?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, and for people who don't know what that means,
external or internal locus ofcontrol is where you think the
control over your life and whathappens to you exists.
Is it external, like externalfactors, like other people, the
system, the, our society,whatever, or is it or luck?
(10:32):
Or is it internal, like I'mable to do stuff?
And there's a lot of researchshowing that people who have an
external locus of control,especially when it comes to
negative stuff no wait, both,it's both, but it's different.
So if you have external locusof control, you're more likely
to be depressed because youthink, well gosh, anything good
(10:55):
that happened to me is justsomeone else gave it to me.
I can't actually have anycontrol or say over that, and
then same with the negativestuff.
So it just is like I'm helpless, as you said.
So I just want to jump in withthat.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
No, that's helpful yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I mean.
So why is it?
Why is it so annoying for youLike, why do you like going into
your pushback against it?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I think that it demands a lot of me and then
rejects anything I try.
Other than validating thewarped worldview Wow.
And even then, sometimes yeah,say more.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
What does that look like?
What is it like a thing thatwould really get you about self
if you're listening to someonedrowning in self-pity.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
With her.
It was like, you know, she waslike went through a breakup with
my friend, um, who I'm veryclose with, and so it'd be like
he's a monster with no empathyand, you know, abandon me and
yada, yada, nobody loves me andhe's now happy with someone else
(12:12):
who sucks and just like intense, like negativity and criticism.
And if I agreed with any ofthat right, then that would be
bad.
Um, if I pushed back on anyevent, tried to reframe or
anything, then that would belike you're invalidating my
worldview and now I feel evenmore alone, which is the thing
about self-pity that I'll I'llpin um and get back to, and if I
(12:40):
try to offer solutions and it'slike clearly looking for
validation over solutions.
But the problem is is that theperson getting blasted with
self-pity all the time gets sickof validating.
They get compassion burnout,right.
I mean, this is like what theliterature is showing and it's
also just blindingly obvious ifyou've ever been in this dynamic
like it's.
It gets frustrating to validatesomebody's feelings that come
(13:03):
across as delusional and toxicand self-absorbed and
contemptuous.
You know what I mean.
Like it's just off, it's anoff-putting experience,
especially when that validationdoesn't seem to lead it to
anything except for moreself-pity.
So I think it puts the other,it puts the other person
(13:25):
listening to it in a bind thatfeels impossible to get out of,
because then if they bring anyof this up, then it's more
evidence that nobody loves themand the universe is against them
and they can't bring up theirfeelings or emotions and they're
even more alone.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, I think the bind is a really key point.
I think that negative feelingsabout yourself, even a lot of
them, like we've all been there,like when you started talking
and saying like, oh, I broke upwith someone, he's a monster and
he's with someone else, like,yeah, I've been there.
Anger, rumination, the negative, the rumination over oh, like
(14:04):
something that doesn't feel fair, like yeah, that's I, I I'm at
fault to you know, doing that alot.
Um, but the interesting thingthat you're saying is like it's
a self-absorption.
So there's something about likemaking you an audience right
and make it puts you in a placewhere you can't ignore it right.
(14:25):
Like it's kind of why I don'tlike when people talk at me,
when they come in and just starttalking at me, but I don't feel
like you're like talking to me.
I'm like I can't leave rightnow.
I can't do whatever I was doing.
This is really usurping myspace and time.
But like you don't see me as aperson, you're not like, I'm
just like kind of dehumanized ina real objectified.
(14:49):
And then there's like the powerand control.
So even thinking of thepsychodynamics about it I mean
we talk about this in DBT whenpeople with borderline
personality disorder or otherkinds of trauma.
They'll fall into what we callactive passivity, which means
which kind of looks like help me, help me, but don't help me.
(15:10):
There's nothing you can do tohelp me.
Help me.
I'm in such suffering, you know, but there's nothing I can do
about it.
You do it, oh no, you can't doit.
And the tricky part about it iswe are okay with that if it
actually gives that other personsomething to do to help them,
like if it's actually effective.
(15:30):
It's an effective way of askingfor help.
But when we talk about activepassivity in therapy, it's also
blocking the therapist's abilityto help.
But then what that does is itprojects the helplessness that
person feels helpless, and sothey're going to make you feel
helpless.
Help me, help me, help me, careabout me, care about me.
(15:53):
Oh, actually, you're not thatgood at it.
Nothing you do is working, soit makes you the helpless one.
Yes, it's crazy, right.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
It's not crazy, no, it's a beautiful way of putting
it.
Yeah, she would always say,like I just want to be witnessed
and I'm like, but I'm notinterested in watching this play
, you know?
Like there's nothing in it forme, right?
I don't.
The thing is is like, when youcome to another person and
(16:24):
you're in pain, like, and it's asomebody that loves you, like
they have a limited window oftolerance for getting nothing in
return.
And one of the things people canget in return is feeling the
self-confidence boost and theyou know, the joy that comes
(16:44):
from genuinely helping somebody.
So if you're able to co-createthat dynamic, then that's one
thing.
But if it's just watch me sit,I'm going to command your
attention, monopolize yourattention for no gain on your
part, forever that person isgoing to leave because it's not,
(17:06):
it's not interesting, itdoesn't generate any kind of
feelings of esteem or connection.
And then that person is goingto feel like I'm just an
unwitting participant, Like youjust want me to sit here and,
like, watch you, but you don'tactually give a shit about how I
feel or what's going on in mylife.
And then, of course, thisbrings up all sorts of issues
(17:29):
with envy.
I mean, if you think that theuniverse hates you and that
other people don't love you,then well, what about your
friend who has a good life, hassuccesses in life?
Is the self-pitying persongoing to be able to feel
happiness for you?
Probably not.
So it's like what can you evenbring to that person?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
for you probably not.
So it's like what can you evenbring to that person?
That might be a part ofnarcissism, the envy part, I
think.
I think that there's somethinginherent in your
conceptualization of self-pitythat might not be all of it, all
of self-pity that, like whatyou said before, needing to be
the most in pain needing to um,let's say what you just said not
(18:10):
be happy or not be able toengage in someone else's
happiness.
I feel like that is a little bitmore narcissism, because that's
a specialness right.
I have a special right to beself-pitying.
There are plenty of people,like patients or otherwise, who
I've experienced a lot ofself-pitying.
There are plenty of people,like patients or otherwise, who
I've experienced like a lot ofself-pity from who don't, who
(18:33):
are still able to be happy forsomeone else, not like the
happiest way because they'redepressed, but they might be
like I'm the worst, I'm terrible, nothing good happens to me.
Oh, my friend, I'm glad thatshe's happy, but you know so I
think it's like what you do withthat negativity makes a
difference of like narcissismversus just self pity.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I do think that what I've been experiencing lately
has the narcissistic bent, andso that's what is, you know, in
part riling me up.
But I do think it would bedifficult to be happy for other
people if you believe thatnobody loves you and that you're
fundamentally unlucky and thatyou're just helpless and a
victim of life circumstanceslike it I.
It would just be a tall ask, Ithink, to to then be happy for
(19:17):
somebody who is the universe's,you know, favorite child.
Um, so I so I don't know, but Imean, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I just don't think everyone who's who's uh
depressed also feels envious.
Some people are just like.
I don't even care how theymeasure up off.
I see what you're saying, but Ifeel like those are two
different things yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I mean.
I will say either way, though,if you are friends with somebody
who has self-pity and who iscapable of feeling happy for you
, or not, it can be difficult tobring up your own successes.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Excessive self-absorption, right Like
excessive and just like that isjust filling up the emotional
space.
Just, the agency is such aninteresting part.
It really is like I mean, wewere talking about this before,
but I could see how it getsreinforced at first, right Like
(20:19):
you get reassurance, you get alot of praise, you get a witness
.
Right, if I start talking abouthow hard my life is, like most
likely you're going to payattention and not bring it to
you Like under normalcircumstances.
So it's reinforced by theattention and support.
Yeah, and then at some point,if it doesn't, if it doesn't
(20:41):
lead to any change orimprovement, or even good like
positive feedback, like well,thank you so much for like
letting you know, letting mevent about my self-pity today.
I appreciate that Then for youit's just like I'm going to get
compassion fatigue.
I mean, I do remember when I wasin high school and had that
(21:03):
like really toxic relationshipand I was fighting all the time
and I was talking about it allthe time.
I was really wallowing it in itand um and probably in a more
anger, ruminant way, right, andmy friends eventually was were
like they had to stop talking tome about it.
One of my really good friendssaid I cannot'm sorry, I cannot
(21:24):
talk about this relationshipwith you anymore because it
seems to be just painful and itseems that you're not doing
anything about it to change it,get out of it like change.
You know it was just like yearsof the same thing.
Yeah, that's when friends burnout, loved ones burn out.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I know it's.
It's an interesting example theabusive relationship or the
shitty relationship, one Like I.
You know, I have another friendwho's in a shitty relationship,
not abusive, and she'll talkabout it a lot and I get
frustrated because I'm like justbreak up with him, come on, I
do not experience her selfpityingitying.
(22:05):
I think the difference is thatshe has kind of self-awareness
to not bring in the victimmentality.
It's more about like acomplaining and emoting about
life circumstances withoutsaying or me without saying like
I'm a victim circumstanceswithout saying, or me without
(22:28):
saying like I'm a victim and I.
But I think a similar thing canhappen with loved ones, where
people are going to get burntout on the relationship thing
too, because they're seeing itas this is a problem that can be
solved pretty simplyExcommunicate this guy or this
woman, right, and then you'll befree, and then this whole issue
will disappear, and that isenormously frustrating.
(22:51):
I mean, we've all been in those, we've all been in these
relationships.
Um, it's tough.
I have a little bit moresympathy for this again because
it's not as much of a victimmindset and I and I know what
it's like to be for your, foryour self-esteem and agency to
(23:12):
be seemingly hijacked by anotherperson where it just doesn't
feel as if you can get out of it.
It's not so much uh, theuniverse hates me, right, but
like, uh, I can't.
This person is making me feelboth loved and unlovable at the
same time and that is messingwith my self-concept to such a
degree that I don't, I can't getout of it.
(23:33):
But I know that my physicallike my physical being is is
like riding inside me and so Ifeel all this anxiety and
rumination, and I have to talkabout it and talk about it, and
then other people are going togive you the same advice over
and over again.
You're not going to take it.
Nation, and I have to talkabout it and talk about it, and
then other people are going togive you the same advice over
and over again.
You're not going to take it andthen and they leave too, but I
see it as a different process.
I don't know what about you?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is yeah.
I feel like this is where we'rekeep coming back to the agency
piece.
I feel like I have a reallylike can I do something about it
?
Right, being like hey, thissituation's hard, my
relationship sucks.
Versus like oh, poor me, whydoes this always happen to me?
Like, why do?
(24:13):
Why do these people keep doingthis to me?
Instead of saying like maybe I'mthinking the wrong guys or
maybe I'm doing things right.
Like I struggled with theromantic relationships the most
because I've had people, I'vedated people who really struggle
with self-pity.
It was really frustrating withme At first.
(24:37):
I was like, oh, I'm going to behere for you and help you, and
I wouldn't call it self-pity.
In my head I'd be likeself-pity almost kind of sounds
like it's your fault, you shouldrecognize.
But I was like like, oh, you'rejust sad and depressed.
But then when you're in arelationship with someone and
one of them is drowning inself-pity, that means that
(24:57):
they're dropping all theiragency and control and putting
all the responsibility on theworld, aka you right like, if
it's like oh god, my life sucks.
This is really.
Oh, I can't believe this ishappening to me and what we're
talking about is our lives.
Well, I'm the only one left whomanufactured this thing that's
(25:20):
hurting you, right?
And I think it's been hard forme because I'm a really like
doer when it comes to hardthings and challenges.
I may overcome it, say, by likedoing too much, but I tend to
like really dive into actionwhen I'm upset.
So, I am a very agentic, likeI'm the one who drives a lot of
(25:45):
things and decisions right, soI'm an easy target for like,
like all the responsibility weput on me.
I'll give you an example.
There was, um I had a boyfriendwho um didn't couldn't get
around without a car, and he hada lot of financial problems, in
part because he um got firedfrom his job and refused to get
(26:07):
another one and this is actuallynot my ex-husband.
He was like, oh, I don't have ajob, and I'm not going to look
for one.
Poor me, life is so hard, Idon't have any money and
wouldn't seem to want to changeit.
And so he was looking to get acar and we were talking about,
(26:30):
you know, different used carsthat are like affordable within
what he had and what he couldmanage.
And he decided to go and get aloan for a brand-new car.
It was like $30,000.
And I was dumb enough toco-sign on that lease Because he
(26:52):
was like oh, but I, you know, Ineed a car and if I were ever
to get a job, I was going to getright.
So I'm like fine, I'll co-signon the lease.
And so he had $30,000 in debtbecause he got a brand new car.
He insisted on getting a brandnew car.
And then, when we were breakingup, he started.
(27:12):
First of all, we were breakingup because he got frustrated and
was like stormed upstairs and Iwent upstairs to see what he
was doing.
He was packing furiously and hewas just like I'm out, I'm done
, we're over.
And I was like I'm really gladyou're saying this, because I've
(27:35):
been, I've been thinking aboutthis for a while too.
I'm glad, you know, I'm gladthis is mutual.
And he was like what?
And he, like, broke down, waslike screaming, crying, and then
he ran outside, and I'll neverforget it.
He ran outside and I ran tofollow him.
He was like I can't believeyou're leaving me with all of
this debt.
How could you do this to me,how could you leave me with this
debt?
(27:55):
And I at the time I just feltso bad.
I got back together with him.
I was like, oh, I'm sorry, youknow like.
And then later on I was like Ididn't tell you to buy that
fancy new car.
What are you talking about?
But that was that was like themost annoying and a lot of
(28:19):
things like that happen but anannoying version of self-pity
where it's just like you're just, you're just like you're
creating bad things for yourlife.
And, yes, there are a lot ofexternal circumstances that are
hard yeah, but yeah, you know,um, it's not, it's not all the
outside.
It's also like what can we?
(28:39):
What can we do about it?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
right.
There's just a fundamental likelack of self-awareness that
comes with a lot of self-pityjust like in that again is the
lack of agents because they'renot seeing their own agency in
these situations.
Um, but a lot of times when Isee self-pity I've got two major
(29:02):
camps of it in my head.
I think just experiences thatthat I've had with it.
One is that more kind ofnarcissistic, self-absorbed
self-pitying and one comes fromchronic pain.
I like really struggle withtreating chronic pain in part
(29:23):
because if you have chronic painit's hard for me to see how you
wouldn't be depressed Like me.
Having a headache just makes melike incapable of productivity.
So like imagining my whole bodybeing in pain constantly, or a
part of my body, whatever, isjust like oh my God.
(29:43):
And so that kind of self-pityis also frustrating for me, but
it's far more understandablebecause that person actually has
to go above and beyond to findtheir agency than the other camp
.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I would argue like emotional pain could also feel
like that.
There's some people withsuicidal thoughts and tendencies
that, like it really feels likea physical.
I can't control this, and Ithink that's the important part.
If you want to think about itin a sympathetic way, the people
who are talking about um mightactually feel like they are not
(30:26):
in control of what bad thingsare happening.
For example, if there's somepeople, especially with
personality disorders, who justlike are mean and damaging to
the relationships and then belike, why does everyone leave me
?
I don't understand.
It's because they don't havethe awareness to see their
agency like what they, what theydid to cause it, and which
(30:47):
means that they can't see whatthey can do to stop it Right.
So there's that, that blindness.
But then it's another thing.
If you go, you can do this.
Here are the tools.
Go for it, and they don't wantto take control.
Now that's a different question.
Like like, what is reinforcingyou, not taking responsibility
(31:10):
or not saying you could changeyour situation?
What does that do for you?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I completely agree with you, and I mean part of
this is just like my ownfrustration biasing me.
Of course, emotional pain canfeel worse than chronic pain in
certain circumstances and theway that you're raised right or
the trauma you've suffered isgoing to make it feel as
immovable and adaptable asphysical pain.
I guess there's still part ofme that's like.
With the person who is doingthis from an emotional, painful
(31:36):
place, it is easier to say tothem in a in a sense like here
are your resources, go dosomething with them.
When somebody has chronic pain,you can say here are your
resources, but they're stilllimited in what they can do with
it.
Like they, they, they are goingto lose hobbies, they are going
(31:56):
to lose like travel, they'regoing to lose mobility, they're
going to, you know, like, losesensory ability.
There's just a real loss thereand no matter what they do,
there's still going to be alimitation.
And I mean you could make thesame argument with emotional
(32:17):
pain, but I don't know.
But it's just like sometimeswith chronic pain, I can feel
the helplessness very easilyBecause I know that whatever I
can do, it's not going to getrid of the fundamental problem
and I don't always feelemotional pain.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I think that's the key right.
Like if you, if you're thinkingabout physical pain, like
there's, I can't actually dosomething about it, and with the
emotional pain, you're like youcan do something about it.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's hardto say.
I mean I think that when wetalk about like what, what's the
um, what to do about it, likelike what, what are the tips?
(32:54):
Tips are, if we think aboutlike how do us therapists deal
with patients who are like, oh,everything's the worst, life
sucks, there's not got nothing.
I can't believe all these peopledid this to me in dbt.
I like this like metaphor.
That was really nice and I, um,I like the spirit of it.
It's like you, you could tellthese people who pity themselves
(33:16):
okay, you might not have pushedyou into the pool, but you're
gonna have to swim out of it andthat I, I just love that.
It's like fine, you know, Ithink you could lean in with
like validation for the sadness.
They're probably feeling theemotions, but it could be like,
(33:38):
yeah, all this crappy stuffhappened to you because of bad
luck, external circumstances,whatever.
What are you going to do aboutit?
You tell me what you're going todo about it, because no one is
going to rescue you from this.
You might attribute the problemto the world, but the world's
not going to get you out of it,unfortunately.
(33:58):
So what are you going to doabout it?
And I think in that, in thatspirit, we would like prompt the
patient to be like all right,what do you think is going to
help?
You tell me, drop the rope.
Like you tell me, I'm not goingto keep pulling.
Try to pull and fight againstyour beliefs that you don't have
(34:20):
any control, right, fine, like,what are we gonna do?
Are we gonna stay thismiserable?
We can do that, but that's achoice and that is agency is
choosing to pity yourself, andif they say I don't know like
okay, well, I don't know either.
(34:42):
I guess we're gonna wallow.
What does that look like?
What do we just felt?
But what if?
Like what do you?
How would you change if theworld was completely out of your
control?
Bad things could happenrandomly.
What are you gonna do?
Like, let's just accept thatyou have zero control.
Now what?
(35:09):
I need to get brave enough tosay these things to people I
have said similar things intherapy when I'll be a little
bit more genuine and be like.
You know, I've noticed that I'mgiving like, I'm really working
hard here with you.
I, you talk, you say all thesethings and I'm like what else
(35:30):
can I throw at them?
What can I do to support them?
And I'm trying all these thingsand nothing works and I feel so
helpless.
Do you feel helpless?
Yeah, we feel pretty helpless.
What are we going to do now?
What does helpless feel like?
Let's sit in that for a while.
(35:51):
You know, I think that I woulddo that.
I would slow down, but that'sthat's me working with it.
As a friend.
I'd be like I'm part of yourworld man, I don't, I got to do
stuff.
I got to take out the trash, Igot.
You know, I got to do stuff, Igot to take out the trash I got
you know.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, I think, like I , I I mean, I think this is,
this is the thing that brings upthe most helplessness for me,
and so I, I don't my like tipsmight be non-existent this
episode, I don't know.
So I'm glad you're taking thereins here.
Um, I do think that part ofthis is like recognizing how
(36:25):
maladaptive this is going to be.
I mean, the research here isincredibly scant, but you know
what there is was talking about.
You know all the things we'vetalked about thus far, but also
this sense of like, the socialrepercussions of this and the
(36:51):
mental health repercussions,which is like, as you ruminate
with this external locus ofcontrol, with this helplessness,
you're only going to make yoursituation worse, because you're
going to be generating andgenerating and generating more
and more thoughts about your ownhelplessness, about how
everything sucks, about life'sunfairness, and then what's
going to happen is that you'regoing to want people to rescue
(37:12):
you and they will at first,which also will continue to
generate this, and then you'regoing to have this dual process
of self-hatred and other hatred,like I'm so terrible, why
aren't people rescuing me?
They're so terrible, and that'sgoing to push people away
extremely quickly, and so thenyou're going to feed more and
(37:32):
more into the isolation.
So I think, like step one ofthis is recognizing that it's
happening, and I again I want tobe clear, like this doesn't
mean suppress.
I mean it might initially ifyou want to keep your friends,
but you know, this doesn't mean,like it doesn't mean that it's
not justifiable to feel bad foryourself, like shitty things
(37:54):
happen in life and of courseyou're going to feel bad for
yourself.
Some things do suck, things dosuck.
There is a kind of injusticementality though that I think
happens a lot with this, whereit starts with an assumption
that life should be fair andit's just not fair to me, the
rules aren't working to me andthat's never going to get you
(38:14):
anywhere, because everybody elseis existing in this unfair
world too and they're attemptingto make it work, and so this
like justice, you know, mindsetis just like it's not going to
get you anywhere because you'renot accepting the reality of
this, of your, of your life,which is like the world does not
give a shit about you.
People do, some people therewas.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
There is some research that we found that said
that self-pity might actuallybe a good, a helpful adaptive
response to recognizing when youare helpless right like okay.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Well, first of all, this is a philosophical paper,
it's not a psychological paper,so this was not an empirical
study.
So I just want to yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I do want to recognize there might be some
situations where you pityyourself a little bit right like
if you're just like pluggingaway and suddenly it hits you
how hard things have been or howhappy some institutions and
groups and communities andsocial norms are for certain
people you know, like somethings just aren't fair and you
(39:20):
might have a moment where you'relike up, like kind of wallow in
it and go, oh my god, like likeI had cancer last year.
You know, raising a two and ahalf year old, like what you
know, like I, I feel bad formyself right now um, but like
with anything that coping withthat is leaning into the sadness
(39:41):
, the shock, sadness, anger,like the feelings involved, and
not like spinning in your headwhy it isn't fair and why you
can't do anything about it, butwhich, like spoiler alert,
sometimes ruminating in yourmind like turning things over
and over, is a way to avoid theemotion.
Right, blame it, go and thinkabout all the people who are to
blame.
Feels productive, but it's notsitting with the sadness that
(40:05):
things turned out the way theywere.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, I just want to read a quote from this paper.
So basically it says theemotional process of self-pity
allows people to recognizeinjustice in the world without
moving on and ignoring it, whilethe price is self-isolation,
it's also a way to avoidself-delusional mechanisms.
Isolation, it's also a way toavoid self delusional mechanisms
.
And then, because it basicallybecause it isolates you it
(40:27):
provides time and space totransform themselves by
establishing a specific type ofdialogue with themselves,
whatever that means.
But I think, like I don't knowif I am conceptualizing self
pity in the same way that thispaper is, because to me the
paper seems like it's talkingmore about self-compassion.
I mean, of course, like this isthe thing like on the one hand,
life's not fair and on theother hand, sometimes life is
(40:48):
really not fair and you do haveto fight it, and so that's
that's kind of a difficulty.
But I think like and and thisis where my kind of like I lean
too far and then never victimizemyself, camp, or sometimes then
I'll get victimized because I'mI'm not recognizing my own, uh,
(41:08):
I'm not recognizing theinjustice of the situation, that
someone's treating me like shit, or that maybe I should take
care of myself more.
So that's the other side of thecoin, I suppose I guess.
But what's interesting right,is that in this philosophy
papers, conceptualizationself-pity is agentic.
It allows somebody to like, ifyou just sit around recognizing
(41:34):
injustice, that's completelyuseless, like it's probably
better to just not think thatyou're in an unjust world unless
you do something about it.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
And that takes a duty .
Yeah, right, I would say thatin in that sense, I've had self
like helpful self-pity momentsthat unhelpful self-pity moments
too, don't don't get me wrong.
But times when I, um have beenlike trying to work through each
day and trying to get throughthe day, feeling like crap.
Right, this past year, like allthe treatments I felt like crap
most of the time and somethings I'm like slower on, some
(42:13):
things that I'd like to be mymind doesn't work as fast like I
just I'm just like operating atlike 60 percent.
There are times where I was justlike wallowing in that
excessive self-absorbedself-pity, where I was just like
I have cancer, like I gotcancer and it sucks.
It just sucks, you know like.
(42:35):
There are other days where I'mlike no, I could try to eat
healthier and and try to figureout why I, you know.
But there's there's a lot ofchance, there's randomness,
there's there's external locusof control.
I, I guess, in part like I justgot a bad hand with cancer, um,
and sometimes it just helped tohave those days.
As it's that paper said slowingdown, recognizing injustice yes
(43:01):
.
I also felt like this is hardfor a lot of people with cancer
or a lot of different illnessesLike I.
I think I couldn't connect tolike a human suffering on that
level, but like there were somedays where it just was helpful
just to sit around being likepoor me, yeah, then getting
myself out of it If I stayedthere for too long.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
I think that would be isolating and not helpful I
don't know what you did withalex, but with me at least you
protected yourself from thesocial, socially isolating
qualities of self-pity which Ithink involve so like.
One thing we know aboutself-pitying individuals is that
(43:44):
they have got a lot of likeanger, and that tends to be
anger in meaning like they don't.
They're not necessarily likethrowing plates against walls,
but they're like.
They're like angrily ruminating, it's like going over like
injustice scripts and you're Ididn't really get any of that
from you Not saying that wouldhave been a terrible thing, but
like chronically.
You know, it's just like it isme against the world, it is me
(44:09):
against.
Therefore, like you right, likeit's me against other people
can really push people away.
But yeah, I mean I would have.
Anybody should probably feelpretty bad for themselves if
they've got cancer.
So I don't really know what theright although, but it just
(44:31):
falls.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
It falls on the helplessness, like if I were to
sit around talking about, like,oh, poor me, I have cancer, you
know it would be valid for me tosay that, but it would do all
the things that we talked aboutbefore, which is making you feel
helpless, me feel helpless,Like there's nothing you can do.
If I am like my life sucksbecause of cancer, you just be
like, yeah, yeah, there'snothing I can do to help that.
(44:55):
But I think you're talkingabout a very particular type of
self-pity which throws the blameon you, attacks you, Right, or
just me as part of thecollective human race.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I mean, like this girl was never basically saying
like you are the source of allmy problems or like you're.
I mean sometimes she would getpretty mean to me it was more
because I was a participant andlike in the human race and like
wasn't being helpful enough.
But I mean I like I thinkthere's a balance thing.
Like you just weren'tinundating people with self pity
(45:32):
, you did have it.
See, I never really heard a lotof like poor me.
It almost feels like more likepoor us, meaning all of us with
cancer or who could get cancer,like, which I think is again
interesting interesting,different differentiation that
(45:54):
you said.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
I have a reason, I have a legitimate reason to feel
sad about myself, and so Ithink what you're talking are
you talking about people who,like, feel sad for stupid
reasons.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
When you're talking to your therapist, your
therapist is going to say youhave great reasons for feeling
bad for yourself and you don'tneed to have a quote, unquote
legitimate reason.
But when you're talking aboutfriends, you're talking about
just like being sociallysuccessful.
Like there's a world ofdifference between having cancer
and going through a breakup orhaving cancer and you know, even
(46:33):
like my cat dying, you know, Imean it's just like people are
going to take that into account,even if, like I mean, the is is
like the person going through areally horrible breakup, like
maybe it was a really horriblebreakup.
Maybe to like abandonment is areally huge issue for them, it
is the love of their life.
Like of course, that can be agood reason to feel self pity,
(46:55):
but just socially speaking, wedo have, like, whether we like
it or not, we have differentexpectations about what people
are going to wallow over, andcancer is at the top of the list
Cancer and grief right.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Yeah, I mean it is.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
it would be pretty boring if I, if I were to like
go on and on about it, but soyeah, but, but yeah but I mean,
I just think we're talking aboutlike you have to strike a
balance, like nobody's nevergoing to feel sorry for
themselves, ever.
So there has to be a balance andthere's going to be different
components that feed into thatbalance.
One is going to be theperceived legitimacy of your
complaint.
Another is going to be like howmuch do you make it about this
(47:34):
sort of like delusional sense ofinjustice, or like what the
world owes you or you know whatI mean or hasn't given you?
Another is going to be justabout like the amount and the
duration that you unload onpeople, um.
Another is going to be like howmuch is anger involved?
Another is going to be how muchdo you just not accept anything
(47:55):
the other person is saying andjust want them to witness you in
it?
I mean, I think, if we'rethinking about tips for this,
one of the biggest tips is justlike realizing whether this is
serving you or not, because,ultimately, what these people
want is to be less alone, andthis is going to make them more
alone.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Or think about why, like how it is serving you.
I think if you are wallowing inself-pity or if you're watching
a loved one wallow in self-pity, you can think to yourself what
is reinforcing this?
Right, it could be attention.
Right, just pure attention.
It could be that someone elsejumps in and helps you and is
(48:36):
like pulling you and being thesource of like, come on, you can
do it Like let's fit you.
Right, like giving the agencyto someone else.
It could be because it relievesyou of having to do anything
hard that you don't want to,like work in therapy.
You know your circumstances,right, like you just don't want
to.
Yeah, so I mean, you couldthink about what is reinforcing
(48:59):
it and like try taking it away.
Right, like, if you notice thatyour loved one keeps doing oh,
life is so hard and gets themoff the hook of a house chore,
you'd be like, yeah, that's hard, go ahead to take out the trash
.
Now, you know like give them,keep giving them the agency.
(49:20):
Don't, don't feed intowhatever's reinforcing this,
like helplessness, activepassivity.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Right yeah, so there's tips for the people who
are self-pitying and there'stips for the people who are
enablers or, you know, victimsof self-pity.
I mean, for the self-pity A, Iwould read Victor Hugo's Man's
Search for Meaning, because thenyou're really going to feel bad
about yourself for pityingyourself, because then you're
really going to feel bad aboutyourself for pitying yourself.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
I remember when Jacqueline and I did during
COVID, we did a book club thatinvolved reading Viktor Frankl's
A Man's Search for Meaning.
So we just read about a mantrying to survive the Holocaust
as our way of coping with COVID.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
It was fun?
Yeah, because if you're pityingyourself for anything less than
being at Auschwitz, then you'regoing to feel like a giant
pussy after reading it.
So that's my number onesuggestion.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, it's graphic with what happens there, you
know some good better than thanwhat Victor Franco won.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Um, I think, too, is just like get really real with
yourself about the short andlong-term consequences of this.
Like you're saying, this isserving some sort of function.
Be really clear on what that isand then be really clear on the
long-term consequences, whichare probably going to be
isolation and a continuation ofhelplessness and a low mood and
what you know, and decide foryourself whether that's worth it
.
Like, maybe it is, I think.
If it's not worth it, oppositeaction is a good thing.
(50:44):
Fake it till you make it.
You know like, act as if you'resomebody who does not pity
themselves at all.
Act as if you are somebody whohas agency.
Try things out.
You know what I mean.
Like, and this is this is why Igo for behavioral activation a
lot when this is the case,because I'm just like look like
it's.
It's going to be a hard to havetime to pity yourself if you're,
you know, doing a bunch of shitall the time and rediscovering
your own agency.
Right, um, what else?
(51:08):
Uh, get in touch with yourvalues.
That's another part ofbehavioral activation.
It's like and this is whatViktor Frankl was saying, you
know, like, even when I am as,even when the universe is
entirely out of my control.
I'm still in control of onething, and that is me.
So what do I want to dedicatemyself to?
Do I, even if I pity myself,even if I feel that life is
(51:31):
unjust?
Do I want to be an essentiallykind person?
Do I, you know?
Do I want to be a generousperson?
Do I want to be a funny person?
Do you know, whatever the casemay be like, you can still be
that.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
To feel sad, to feel the emotion driving this like it
could.
It could be a sadness somewhere, a sadness a time where someone
took agency from you, you know,or just returning to this
feeling of helplessness and whatthat, what that's connected to.
So just like emotional, youknow experiencing.
(52:07):
Yeah, for the loved ones, I trydoing Cut and run.
Just kidding, break that toxiccycle.
I mean, I would say, drop therope.
That's a DBT technique whereyou just stop pushing that
person, just go.
All right, what should we do?
What?
What do you want to do?
So like giving them the thefloor the choice right, um, and
(52:32):
then I I like the trick of ofdifferent sneaky ways to show
people that actually have agency.
So, for example, like what wetalked about, like it's a choice
not to do anything right.
Like we say okay, there's fourways to solve a problem.
Any problem that you have is atherapist like hack.
(52:56):
If you have a problem, thereare four things you could do.
One is do something about it,right, solve the problem.
Two is think differently aboutthe problem.
See it from another side.
Get a new perspective.
Three, accept it for what it is, just be like this is what it
is, all, right.
Four is wallow in it and staymiserable, right.
(53:18):
So you'd be like out of thefour choices, it seems like
number four is the winner, andeven wallowing in lack of agency
is a choice.
Right, little things like that,but sometimes you could just be
like or if you want to actuallybe nice, you know, you'd be
like wow, look at this thingthat you did, that had agencies,
(53:38):
isn't that great, you know,let's reinforce that and pay
attention and ignore when theywallow in self-pity.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
I've never presented that to anybody and I'm going to
now and I'm really excitedabout it.
The four choices, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, yeah, right, it's so simple, it's true.
You have four things you coulddo, and the fourth one is to
like do nothing and be miserable.
It's like, ok, okay, that's achoice and there might be
reasons why they choose that,because maybe it's too difficult
to think of other things orsomething else is more painful,
and so wallowing and letting itdrown out everything else is, uh
(54:15):
, working in some way, butthat's really good okay, so you
can present the four choices.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
I think that one of the biggest hits for loved ones
this might literally be aseparate episode is to get in
touch with their own.
Is guilt keeping them in?
And, if so, is justified guilt,because it's very hard to leave
(54:46):
somebody who feels as if nobodyloves them, nobody gets it,
nobody cares, nobody sticksaround.
It's very hard to hear that andthen decide to be the person
who won't stick around, who willremove themselves.
I'm currently revved up to dothis episode because I'm getting
(55:07):
over a weeks-long hangover ofguilt about ending my friendship
.
I'm sure that guilt will creepin again, but you know, I mean I
felt this way breaking up withmy ex too, where it was just I
mean he had a slightly differentpresentation, but it's just
like how could I leave thisperson?
How could I leave them to theirown devices?
(55:28):
They don't have any devices.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
I'm their, I'm their device they're not as helpless
as you think they are.
Yeah, and then that's the storyfor everyone involved the loved
ones, you, you know, I think ifsomeone feels so helpless and I
might legitimately feel it likethey're treating themselves as
(55:50):
helpless and you are like youknow you're like, oh no, how can
I do this to this poor,helpless baby?
All the problem here they aregrown-ass adults.
They'll be hurt.
They'll probably add this tothe bank of like why life is
unfair but, like you know,that's their choice.
Speaker 1 (56:13):
Yeah, yeah.
And that goes back to them justlike not accepting their own
role in things or, if they do,being like well, I fucked that
up, I guess there's nothing Ican.
I'm just doomed to fuck it upagain lack of insight.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
Insight is it.
We could do a whole otherepisode on insight.
Insight is so fascinating, butwhen it's lacking, it's really
tough.
It's really tough for the lovedones, you know, yeah, they
don't orient themselves in spacein relation to you like.
They're just like.
Here are my thoughts and youjust have to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Like yeah, I think I get.
I get pulled into being theirinsight or to thinking that I
can can be their insight when Iactually can't.
We're just like let me help youthink differently about this.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
Like let me try to convince you of a different
reality, like show you what lifecould be or you know whatever,
and it's like it goes nowherenowhere, and then some people
will take that in and use itwell, and they'll that's the
people you should put energiestowards right who take your
suggestions or help or supportand go.
Thank you, now that helped melook at this differently.
Yeah, the loved ones.
Speaker 1 (57:16):
Just like stop hanging out with them, you know
okay well, I'm currently feelinga lot of self pity because I
come up with these clever littlegive us 5 star ratings quips
and not getting as many as Iwant.
It's really not fair.
I don't feel like anybodyreally cares about us or listens
(57:36):
.
But if you want to prove uswrong, even though I'm just
going to come back next week andsay the same thing, guess if I
start reading on Apple Podcastsand Spotify and leave us a
comment.
We love the comments.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
Yeah, send us a message on the show notes where
it says send us a text, want tohear from you guys I'll say that
, yeah, alrighty, we'll see youguys next week.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Oh, we have an amazing guest next week.
Should we just tease thatamazing guest?
You're gonna love her.
She's, uh, in the sphere rightnow, going back to our reality
tv roots and uh, so get excitedfor that.
We'll see you next week.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of
this podcast make no warranty,guarantee or representation as
(58:23):
to the accuracy or sufficiencyof the information featured in
this podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only, and any
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk, and any andall content or services
available on or through thispodcast are provided for general
, non-commercial informationalpurposes only and do not
(58:48):
constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
professional judgment, advice,diagnosis or treatment, and
should not be considered or usedas a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
.
The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
any information, product,process, service or organization
(59:09):
presented or mentioned in thispodcast, and information from
this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
such approval or endorsement.
© transcript Emily Beynon.
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