Why Are They Acting Like a Child? Understanding Emotional Immaturity

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hey, little helpers, todaywe're going to do a topic that
Kibbe and I have beenworkshopping for a while.
The topic is immaturity.
Now that I mean, I'm sureeverybody like has their own

(00:20):
kind of like assumptions aboutimmaturity, or at about about
immaturity, or beliefs aboutimmaturity.
Kibbe and I are gonna talkabout it, I think, from a
somewhat different lens, becausewe've been thinking a lot more
about disorders, particularly,you know, the cluster B
personality disorders that sheand I are so interested in.
We've been thinking about thisfrom a much more developmental

(00:42):
lens, and so the idea ofmaturity or immaturity has
become really top of mind for uslately, and I think this can be
a really rich discussion.
So, um, stay tuned.
I think this is could be one ofour best episodes yet.
Um, but kick us off.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
No pressure.
Yeah, I mean even just thinkingthat I think a lot of this topic
has inspired by um, our cool ofMind clients and people in our
community.
Because when someone has a lovedone who's immature and we're
talking about emotionalimmaturity, so we'll explain
what that is in a minute buthaving a loved one, like a

(01:17):
romantic partner or a parent ora sibling, that's emotionally
immature and explosive or kindof hard to have a healthy
relationship with, that's reallywhat Kula Mind was designed to
help.
So if any of these topicsresonate and you go, oh, I'm
really struggling with a lovedone who is emotionally immature
and I need more support, justreach out to us

(01:39):
K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom or there's alink in the show notes where you
can book a free consultationcall just to chat a little bit
more about how we can help.
But we basically help peoplelearn how to manage their
relationship with that loved one, whether it's learning how to
respond when they emotionallyexplode, or figure out how to

(02:02):
set your own boundaries or findyour own sense of self-worth
outside of that relationship.
So those are all the thingsthat Cooler Mind is meant to
help with, both with one-on-onecoaching and community.
So I just wanted to mentionthat up front.
But yeah, we've been talkingabout emotional maturity and
what that really means, whatthat looks like and what happens
when someone is not emotionallymature when we expect them to

(02:23):
be right.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
I think one thing that really excites me about
this topic and as kind of a lensfor cool of mind is so and
we've talked about this so manytimes and we've done it
ourselves but, like, whenever webreak up with somebody, or
somebody treats us like shit,there's this temptation to be
like they're a narcissist.
And if, if the symptoms don'tquite meet or, you know, we

(02:47):
can't quite bucket them that way, then there's this dissonance
of like okay, well, if they'renot a narcissist, then what is
it that I just went through?
And I don't think that we needto categorize people as like the
monster or not.
I think a lot of times, whatwe're actually seeing is just
immaturity, or another way toput it is just like a stalled

(03:10):
development, and that soundspatronizing because we think of
developmental disorders as beingintellectual disorders, but I
think really, an emotionaldevelopmental stall is very
relevant.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that when we're lookinginto what emotional maturity is
, I was like, what is emotionalmaturity?
Like, what are we actuallytrying to expect to see?
And looking at the research ofhow emotions and emotion
regulation develop over time, itreally seems like things that

(03:48):
jump out are when you become amore emotionally mature, you are
more likely to have be able tohold a bunch of different
emotions being emotionallycomplex, feeling like
conflicting emotions, complex,feeling like conflicting

(04:10):
emotions, and not just saying Ihave only one emotion or there's
one thing.
That's right.
It's like it's almost likebeing able to understand and
appreciate nuance and complexity.
And as you get older, emotionregulation is supposed to be
better, mostly because you'reselecting environments and
situations that make you happier, Right?
So I think that that's just tostart out.
That's like a helpful anchorfor me of, like, what do we
actually?
We talk about immature,immature.

(04:31):
What does maturity actuallylook like?
And that's, um, being able toregulate your emotions, like
being able to make them work foryou, um, and be able to hold a
lot of different, uh sides ofthe situation.
What do you think?

Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, that kind of granularity piece is really
interesting.
It's actually I was part of fora very short period of time
because it was at the end of mytenure, but I was part of some
granularity research at MountSinai before Duke and it's
interesting, right, because thatlab focused on BPD and people
who are highly emotionallydysregulated and one of the

(05:06):
findings, right, is that there'snot a lot of emotional
granularity.
So people don't get veryspecific about what their
emotion is.
They'll say I'm enraged, whenmaybe indignant could be a more
appropriate kind of descriptorfor how they're really behaving
and you know what their actionurges are.
And, um, it would be like, yeah, like one emotion clouds out

(05:30):
all the others, right, so I'menraged, it's like, okay, is
that the only thing you'refeeling, or they're actually a
lot of different emotionalexperiences going on at the same
time.
So that's what you're referringto.
There is that part of emotionalmaturity means understanding
that you can have a lot ofthings going on, a lot of
different feelings, at the sametime, and part of why I think

(05:50):
that plays into maturity is that, if you this is what we do in
DBT skills, right, is we try tohelp people understand what
exactly they are feeling whatexactly is going on in their
body?
Because if they don't, then theycan have a kind of a chaotic
reaction, because if all they'reexperiencing is right, then
they're gonna react from a placethat, instead of a place of,

(06:12):
okay, part of me is indignant,part of me is hurt, part of me
is sad, um, part of me ishopeful, right, and all of these
things are mixing.
It's like, you know, this paintis all mixing together into
brown and then I don't reallyknow how to like behave from a
valued place.
So, yeah, I think that's areally interesting part.

(06:34):
And then I think another bigpart is what we were talking you
and I were talking about beforethis episode, which is theory
of mind.
Talking about before thisepisode, which is theory of mind
, um, so, and I and I, I dothink that is an emotional
process, but it's slightlydifferent one yeah it's more of
a social one.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
I mean, we're talking about how we're reflecting on
people who feel immature, like alike when we go oh, that's such
an immature thing to do or say,but and what that tends to look
like is very self-focused.
And it makes more sense whenI'm watching my son grow up,
right from being a toddler.
It's like when they're thatyoung, their emotion and their

(07:17):
mind is the only thing thatexists.
Right, they have a need,they're screaming, and then
they're just waiting to see ifthat need is met.
Right.
And when they develop a theoryof mind, when they develop an
idea that they have a mind butother people have minds too then
it becomes like oh wait, I havea need, but then someone else

(07:38):
has other needs and maybe evenlimitations, right.
And so when I scream out likeI'm hungry, I'm angry, I'm blah,
blah, blah, that other personmight not respond right away or
they might not respond in theway that you want them to.
And so you have to learn like,okay, I have this need, but that
other person has another need.
And there are people who growup without really encoding that,

(08:02):
without really saying like Ihave a need and I'm I cannot
believe that people aren'tmeeting that need right away,
and so it looks like, I mean, itis very self focused, because
when you, when we're, you know,expecting someone to quote grow
up, we're expecting them tounderstand that everyone has
different needs, understand thateveryone has different needs,

(08:27):
and it's about all of us likecollaborating together to like
equally meet the needs, or liketo understand that there's
multiple factors at play.
Where immaturity is likethere's only one, there's only
one what I want and whether Iget it or not yeah, it's, it's.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
It's a social process that has an emotional
development component because,like Winnicott would say, that
you know, like baby comes out,it's not like the baby comes out
as, like a self-focused Well.
Yeah, the baby comes out as aself-focused terrorist, but
that's not encoded into theiradulthood, right, like um.
But what happens is they havethis experience of when I have a

(09:02):
need, I ask for it, and thenit's met, and if it's not met,
there's hell to pay.
But over time, right like theyhave to learn that whether or
not there's hell to pay, they'restill not going to get that
need met right away.
Like, if they're hungry, well,their mom might not be home,
their mom might be sleeping,they might, you know, they might
have to wait just a little bit.

(09:23):
And when they're waiting justthat little bit, over time they
become habituated to it, theyget used to it and they realize
like, okay, I actually canregulate my way through not
getting what I want right away.
You have some babies who themother, father, whatever can't
stand the emotion and they justimmediately come in to meet the

(09:46):
need immediately, immediately,immediately.
And the child never learnsdelayed gratification, emotion,
regulation, and so over time,their, their world schema is
just like when I have a need, Iget it met, and they get older
and older and older withoutlearning how to regulate that.
And then we have Donald Trump.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's really interesting too, because I was
just thinking about how doesattachment, what does a healthy
parent do?
Right?
And when we think about it, ifthey meet it right away, if they
meet all the needs of the kidsnever say no, always say yes.
Meet them they becomenarcissistic, right?

(10:25):
That's like what this researchshows.
If you're overly permissive,that kid might grow up to be
immature in the way that like,why don't I get everything I
want right?
but, then there might be theother way of if they don't, if
if that baby learns that I'mcrying and no one is ever going
to bring me what I need, that'sgoing to create something

(10:46):
different, right?
Maybe like an avoidantattachment, right?
So I guess it's like-.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
And it's also great, a nurse has been in a different
pathway.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, yeah, it might just be like a healthy
development involves like you'renot going to get everything
when you need right away, butlike there's someone there who's
going to try their best andthey love you and they're going
to you know, often, more oftenthan not keep you safe and
healthy and and meet your needs,but not all the time.
Yeah so having that balanceRight.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Well, the parent, the parent is a mentor.
In many ways, the parent is ashepherd through life, and
keeping your child safe doesn'tmean meeting it's, meeting it's
stated needs all the time thatthe parent has to have an
outlook for like, what does mychild need to survive in this
world?
And delayed gratification andregulating frustration is part

(11:38):
of that.
And so parents have to be ableto say I'm going to give you
what you ultimately need, butthat doesn't mean I'm going to
give you what you are asking for.
Um and I you know, and I'm alsogoing to give you a lot of what
you ask for, if I can, but Ihave to allow you to function
through that frustration.

(11:59):
And if I give you nothing ofwhat you're asking for, well
then yeah, you're right, that'sa.
That's different circuitry,right?
That's going to cause a lot ofanxiety, a lot of learned
helplessness, a lot of no matterwhat I do, I can't get my needs
met and my care figure doesn'tseem to respond to me, and
that's a whole other yeahcircuitry.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, then there's like the really tricky balance
keeping that balance of givingthem what they need, but not all
the time, in reasonable ways,and having it develop
appropriately to what they cando.

(12:40):
For example, a baby shouldexpect that every time it cries
I'm going to respond to itsneeds as best as I can.
Right, it might not be themoment that he's hungry, but
like he's going to get fed,hopefully.
And then as he grows up, rightnow, like as he's a two
something year old, he is goingto be like I'm hungry and now I
could be like, okay, getyourself a snack.
Like get, go get that banana.

(13:02):
Like go get that banana, right.
And so there's a little bitlike as their capabilities to
satisfy their own needs or theircapabilities to understand that
I'm limited, yeah, like mommy'sbusy, can you go get your right
?
Like then I'm also backing awayand allowing for that space,
right?
So I think the tricky part iswhat we're talking about when

(13:23):
people don't move, like whenthat progression doesn't happen
in a relationship, whether thatperson refuses to like go get
the banana themselves, or theother person keeps meeting their
needs immediately, so that theother person goes like, oh, I
don't have to, I don't have tolearn how to do things myself

(13:44):
and regulate.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
This will probably be the last thing I say about when
it caught.
But yeah, he has somethinginteresting to say here too,
which is like at this certainpoint it's not just the parent
that's gonna say go get a banana.
The kid is gonna say I want todo it myself, I want to put my
shoes on, I want to go to thepark alone, you know whatever
right.
And obviously the parent can'tjust say okay, fine, you do it,
and then leave and never comeback.
But if the parent says no, no,no, you can't tie your shoelaces

(14:08):
yet, I'll just, I'll do it allfor you, then he Winnicott would
say that the child develops afalse self.
So basically they neveractually get to experience their
own autonomy.
They never get to explore theworld for themselves and
discover, like you know, whatare the limits of themselves, of
their abilities and what theyneed to learn.
It's just they develop thisfalse self of oh, things are

(14:29):
done for me and the myorientation towards the world is
going to be whatever otherpeople want it to be, cause I
never got to do it my way.
Um and so, yeah, so that's.
That's another reallyinteresting piece, I think when
we oh no, you go sorry.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
No, I this is.
This is interesting that we'rediving right into like the the
theory and research behindmaturing and what that means,
and it's like it now, like itreally applies to all these
different circumstances thatwe've been talking about, where
people are complaining like thisloved one is not mature, that's
all I'm just.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
I was like wow, we just dove right into the no,
it's exciting because, yeah, I Ireally think that I'm trying to
think of the other personalitydessert, I think cluster b,
maybe minus antisocial, thatkind of has always felt like a
different sort of, maybe minusantisocial, that kind of has
always felt like a differentsort of beast, but probably

(15:28):
antisocial too.
They all really seem likedevelopmental disorders and to
the point where when youexperience people with BPD, npd
or HPD, they feel childlike inmany ways, maybe not all of the
time, but when the narcissistthrows temper tantrums, you know
when the person with bpd is ismaking a new friend, getting

(15:49):
very attached to devaluing,idealizing the person with hpd
just sort of exists.
Um, there's this like childlikequality that I think has
incurred both of us to thinkthis really feels more like
delayed development thananything else.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
And maybe just I don't know if it's that they've
been delayed at different partsof development or in different
ways of development.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
I know I'm like this is my obsession now, ever since
I have a toddler and I'm like,oh, wow, this feels a lot.
I don't want to be mean topeople with BPD.
I want to call them likethey're like childlike.
Mean to people with BPD, Iwouldn't call them like they're
like childlike.
But there's something about myson turning three that really
feels familiar at the core ofBPD, like when that person feels

(16:34):
like emotional and dysregulated.
They feel young, they feel ingood and bad ways, like they're
they're so loving, they're likethe emotions are just out there,
right, when they're angry,they're angry when they're sad,
you know like there's just likealmost no artifice, there's no
like, yeah, like changing theway they feel.

(16:54):
It's just like it's so genuine.
But it feels very like youngbecause it feels very like, yeah
, they're throwing a tantrumwhen they don't get what they
want or feel rejected.
And then with narcissism, withpeople with narcissistic
personality disorders, it's it'slike they're frozen in the
adolescent or they're like like,oh, I gotta be better than my
peers.
What is?
What is everyone else doing?

(17:16):
I'm so envious.
Everyone's looking at me likeit's this very like identity
focused piece and identity asdefined by like am am I the most
popular in school Like?
And then, when we grow, older,it's like oh, no, we're valuable
for other things too.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
You know I see them both that way.
It's interesting.
I think part of what's gonna befun about this is you and me
playing in a sandbox with thistopic a little bit, and
hopefully we don't offend anyone.
I mean, I think you know BPD isknown to be a developmental
disorder.
It's not always talked aboutthat way but the bio-social
theory is like conjoined with itbasically, and we've talked

(17:54):
about that 8 million times here.
But you know we have got asensitive temperament in the, in
the child met with invalidatingparents, and so there's no
normal emotional developmentLike that's written in to the
story of BPD.
And so there's no normalemotional development like
that's written in to the storyof BPD.
And that happens prettyimmediately, you know, and it
prevents true identitydevelopment because again, in a

(18:16):
way that kind of Winnicottautonomy slice is happening here
in a different way.
It's not that their needs arebeing instantly met, it's that
the emotional needs are rarelygetting met or chaotically
getting met, and so developmentof coherence is very difficult
and identity really needs.
Identity is coherent, right?

(18:37):
It's like what is coherent inme that I can latch onto and say
this is me, and if that'slacking then we've already got
disrupted development, I thinktheory of mind becomes really
interesting with BPD.
I guess the only reason I saylike BPD reminds me of

(18:57):
adolescence too.
That's when people arediscovering their identity and
they're pretty unsure about itand they're experimenting with a
lot of things.
It's when actually, for thefirst time, things aren't
coherent, because puberty iscoming online and every like big
changes are coming in todisrupt everything that has been
kind of safe and steady.
Um, and then with narcissism,yeah, there it.

(19:19):
It's like, in a way, there'ssomething about adolescence that
fits, because it's thedevelopment of the social
identity that feels stalled withnarcissism.
But that narcissistic tempertantrum feels really young to me
, like two years old.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, have you ever seen anadolescent throw a temper
tantrum?
True lesson throw a tempertantrum.
I mean, I guess what we'retalking about is like to try to
bring it back to um, like ourexperience of loved ones with
immaturity.
Um, there's different levels,that different areas that they
could be immature.
Right, there's the emotionalmaturity, where emotional

(19:59):
immaturity kind of looks like,um, if you have a loved one who,
if they're upset, they getreally upset and it's like
explosion and like they can'teven control or manage the way
it's expressed.
So they're like really, reallyupset, almost like.
Sometimes when they cry or theyget upset, it almost looks like

(20:20):
childlike, where it's likesobbing and almost like.
I'm not even.
I'm not even managing or liketrying to hold it in.
It's like all out there andit's like that black and white
thinking like all good, all bad,I get what I want, I don't get
what I want, right.

(20:42):
Like this is good, this is abad person and this is a good
person, right.
So kind of like the verysimplistic I'm having emotion
and I have needs and a lot right.
And then there's like thatidentity piece which comes later
, which is like okay, now, whoam I?
Who am I in relation to otherpeople?
How do I relate to it?

(21:04):
Am I valuable to other people?
Am I valuable to society?
And I imagine that if you'restunted at an earlier age with
the emotion, you can't get tothe and I imagine that if you're
stunted at an earlier age withthe emotion you can't get to the
.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
If you're stunted at the age of three, it's hard to
get to age of 13 and developthat sense of self in a good way
.
I was just thinking.
You know, with both of thosedisorders there's this sense of
I need people to treat me in aparticular way or I won't be
okay.
And I think for the emotionallymature person it's a very
different story.
It's I want people to treat mein a particular way.
If they don't, I'll know whatto do about it.

(21:42):
And there's an expectationpeople won't treat me how I want
to be treated all the time.
If I want somebody to bring mecheesecake, maybe that'll happen
.
Probably not, unless I pay forit.
Um, but you know, like I, um, Isee relationships as

(22:04):
negotiations between my needsand boundaries and the other
person's needs and boundaries.
And what I kind of consistentlygot from particularly my
narcissistic friends is thatthat negotiation doesn't exist.
It is these are my needs andboundaries, you fit them, or?
anything yeah, and that'sentitlement.

(22:28):
But entitlement is also amaturity right, it's.
It's not necessarily likeyou're a bad person.
It might just be you're anundeveloped person Because
there's something about if youdon't get your needs met by
another person, then that feelsreally bad to you.
And well, what does that remindyou of?

Speaker 2 (22:59):
I mean we could go I'm sure we'll have another
discussion about emotionalimmaturity in parents, which is
a hot topic us describing, um,the situation with her partner
and her boyfriend who's she?
She like said he was great inso many ways, like that he's

(23:19):
respectful, he's kind, he's, youknow, like they have a good
relationship.
But she was a, she got a sensethat he's just like.
She described it as like ayoung soul, while she feels like
an old soul.
And, um, um, she was sayingthat and I was describing like
you know what, what did thatlook like?
Well, she was like, well, shewould be, you know, be
affectionate to him or kind oflook at him.

(23:41):
And he would be like what areyou, what are you doing?
And, um, she was like, oh, doesthis make you feel vulnerable?
Or, and he was like, no, it'sjust weird.
So he kind of brushes off someof her emotional expressions.
But there was another timewhere she was sad and expressing
sadness over him not taking herto an event and he was like,

(24:05):
well, I feel like you're justcriticizing me, I'm going to.
You know, I don't want to havethis conversation.
And she was just saying like Ijust want to share this emotion
that I have with you.
So it seemed like she wastrying to just have a
conversation I mean the way shewas saying it who knows what it
looked like but saying like Iwant to express affection and
sadness and all these things.
And he kind of, you know,bristled at it or felt

(24:28):
uncomfortable and she describedalso then feeling like he was
immature but not reallypinpointing it.
And then, when she met someoneand just had an interaction with
someone, with a man who waslike it felt more mature, he was
older, she was like, wow, Ifelt like a woman around him.
Like nothing bad happened, butshe's just like she was like oh

(24:50):
wow, this is what it feels liketo be around a person who's more
mature.
So what do you think about that?
Or how immaturity can show upin like a relationship like that
, what that looks like, becauseit's always bad, right, we're
talking about like tempertantrums, but you know,
immaturity could like be like ohyeah, I feel like, looking back

(25:11):
, like there's so manyboyfriends where I was immature.
They were immature, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
When it comes to dating, I guess my thoughts
branch out into two things.
One is is there an essentialdelayed development?
And the second is are you in adifferent developmental stage
than what is necessary for thesuccess of your relationship?
And the second one I don'tthink is about immaturity,

(25:40):
because I think developmentalstages can actually happen at
different parts of people'slifespans.
So, for instance, I think a lotof people have the fuck boy
phenomenon where they, you know,they date somebody who's not
ready for a relationship.
That doesn't mean that thatperson is developmentally
delayed.
It could mean that their valuesystem is elsewhere.
They value currently in theirlife different things

(26:03):
exploration, whatever.
I've talked about that beforeand I think that that causes a
lot of problems because whatyou're getting isn't necessarily
immaturity.
What you're getting is a valuesconflict where your needs do not
meet the value needs of theother person, um, and so that I
think is when like, fuck boyswill and fuck boys and girls um

(26:28):
will be on serious towards you,won't take your needs into
account as much, will play gameset cetera, and there might be
elements of actual immaturitywithin that.
But I think that's a differentbeast.
But I think people encounterthat a lot and then they're like
that guy was a narcissist, whenin reality it's like no, that
person just is off doing theirown thing.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
They just don't want what you want, you were sure you
want a commitment and you wanta type of commitment.
And they are not like theydon't want that or they're not
ready for that, and who knows ifthat means a maturity overall.
You know like, if they're orthey're just they just don't
want to commit right now, right,and it's like so easy to be
like they're just immature,they're narcissists, right, but
it's like they just might notwant the same things as you do

(27:13):
at that time, right, might notactually like communicate that
in an effective way.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
So Right, and so that's where there may be
elements of immaturity, but thatalso might be more like, um,
they are being told by theirculture and society that what
they should be doing is being ina relationship, but actually
they don't.
And so then there's a valuesconflict about it, and that's
very confusing, and they'rereacting from a place of
confusion, um, and in that Ithink it's just something you

(27:39):
grow out of or age out of, butit's not a developmental wound
or delay, yeah, okay.
So then when we're talkingabout a developmental like delay
, um, and we don't know whichthis is, by the way, in this
story we don't know exactlywhat's going on, but there's

(28:03):
something about her needs andemotions that feels threatening
to this guy, to where hecontinuously needs to shut them
down, not understanding thatthat's going to have long-term
consequences for him, and thatcould be for a number of
different reasons.
But this is when, like, theoryof mind, I think, is really

(28:25):
important as well as like, what?
What does he?
Is he, is he misunderstandingher?
Or is he flat-out unwilling tomentalize?
Because he might find, if hementalizes, that her perspective
is going to make himuncomfortable or have needs that

(28:46):
aren't met, or something likethat and so he's consistently
blocking her emotionalexpression and that is going to
lead her feeling uncared for andprobably like she is the mother
in the relationship.
And then when another man comesand says, express, I want to

(29:07):
hear it, I want to hold it, thenshe's no longer going to feel
like the mother in therelationship, she's going to
feel like a quote, unquote woman.
Some people will actually sayand I feel girlish because I've
got someone taking care of me,mm-hmm, um, but it's, it's, it's

(29:27):
girlish in a sexual like a, agood way girlish in a sexual,
like a good way, like a hot way.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, yeah, I remember one boyfriend who was
pretty immature, he was and likeI say this, and he was still
really nice in some ways he wasa little racist, but German
boyfriend, um, but we got into ahuge fight once because, um, we

(29:56):
were at a dinner with a friendwho was describing a really
painful loss for a dog.
Like she was just describinghow this dog meant a lot to her
and her family and we love, likethey loved the dog, and it was
just so painful.
And he kept saying, oh, there'ssome, there's some scientists
who say that, um, pets don'tactually love their owners,

(30:18):
their, their families.
It's just because they're fedby them that they act in ways
that we think that we love them.
And I was just like, don't saythat right now, like this is not
the moment.
And he was just like angry andsurprised.
Like he was angry that I waslike telling him to shush, but
then also like what I wastelling her the truth, and I was

(30:38):
like like that wasn't themoment because she was like sad
about the loss.
So hearing that the dog mighthave not loved her was probably
not the moment, the moment, andhe just couldn't understand how
the truth that he had needed tobe held back because of someone

(30:59):
else's like wasn't in the samemindset, and so I remember
thinking like, how do you know?
Just like, read the room.
He didn't know how to read theroom, so that felt like a more
developmental thing.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yeah, and we do talk and we do talk about, we do talk
about social development too, Imean in social maturity and
social development as well.
And and yeah, I mean all thesethings are are so interconnected
.
Um, I think you know, when you,when you are able to properly
mentalize, then you then a fewthings happen, you know.

(31:29):
One is that you realize thatyour needs are at odds with
other people's.
That's threatening, right, itmeans you won't get your needs
met.
And another thing is thatyou're going to find that other
people have different worldviewsthan you, and that can also be
threatening, because theassumptions by which you've been
living your life are lesssecure, and both of those entail

(31:52):
emotion regulation in order toaccept so, and theory of mind is
required for social developmentand maturity, and so all of
these things are sointerconnected.
So if you don't, if you can't,if you can't regulate your
emotions very well, thenmentalizing or empathizing,

(32:13):
perspective taking is going tobe a threatening prospect, and
if you can't mentalize properly,you're going to be in
situations all the time whereyou need to regulate your
emotions because your needsaren't going to be met and you
won't understand why.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, if you, if you don't get that you need to
respect that other person, theirneeds, their limits, their
requests, their you know,whatever their resources and
what you need to do in order toget them to respond to you, then
you're constantly like I'mupset because, like I just come
in expecting for you to justlike right.

(32:52):
It should be all about me, itshould be all about my needs,
and it's not, and that's notokay, right?
I mean, I think that this mightbe why that women tend to be
more emotionally mature andcomplain about this in dating,
that there's more immature menthan there are mature men.
Because maybe because we have,women are socialized to think

(33:17):
about other people's needs wayearlier, right, like it's
they're able to, but they'rethey're kind of told maybe over
time like, oh no, like berespectful to this person or
help this person out, or you'regoing to have a baby at some day
where you'll have to take careof something and give your body
and you know, energy to likeanother human being and men, or

(33:40):
raise, socialize more often tobe like, go and find your dreams
, you know, be the powerful one.
It should be about you, um, andhow you're better than everyone
, right?
So they grow up kind of beinglike there's no limitation,
there's no other people's needs,it's mine, mine's the most

(34:00):
important, and like, now thatI've found you and I want you to
be my wife and girlfriend orwhatever you, you get the
privilege of satisfying my needs.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, I'm baking this thought as we speak.
Um, but women are.
They are socialized to thinkabout other people's perspective
and emotions a lot, and butalso we are trained to regulate
the relationship, wreckingemotions and to express the
relationship, eliciting emotions.

(34:32):
So I mean like tears and anger,both elicit need, like elicit
responses from other people thatmeet our needs, but one of
those tends to secure arelationship and one of those
tends to push away therelationship Interesting.
So anger gets your needs met inthe short term but often does

(34:55):
not in the long term, and that'swhat men are socialized to go
for.
Tears are meant to secure yourneeds in the short term and the
long term because the otherperson wants to come closer and
comfort you and they don'texperience themselves as being
pushed away, villainized, umencroached upon.

(35:16):
You know they experience you assoft and you know doe-eyed and
and sweet etc.
So I don't know if that playsin where you know, and obviously
it erodes actually the womanover time because then they
never get to be angry.

(35:37):
But it's kind of like theemotional experience they get to
have takes into account theother person as well In a way
that like a man's emotiondoesn't it's what we talk about
with emotion regulation.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
It's like we, if emotion is a signal of a need
and the way we express it isgoing to try to satisfy that
need.
We're going to change the waywe express it to satisfy that
need.
So if I'm angry, if I needprotection, I can puff up and be
like, yeah, I'm the best, andyou could go, you know whatever,
and fight.
I could also cry and be like Ineed you to recognize and and

(36:14):
you know whatever.
And so I'm going to do overtime what works to satisfy that
need.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Women tend to be the most, the more emotionally
mature ones, because we've beensocialized to take into account
other people's needs, and I wasjust adding an emotional element
where, like, we also are taughtto regulate well regulate all
of our emotions, butparticularly the ones that push
people away.
So even the emotionalexperiences that we get to
express more clearly also takeinto account the other person's

(36:40):
emotional experience and tend tosecure relationships more.
So women tend to be inrelationship more than men do.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My priority is a little bitmore.
Our socialization is more aboutcollaboration and keeping
relationships and maintainingthem.
So we're going to learn how tomentalize, think about other
people's thoughts and feelingsmore than people who are not
socialized like that, like men.
So, yeah, it's just.

(37:07):
Do you, do you remember anyglaring signs of emotional
immaturity in your dating life,or even?
Yourself.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
One glaringly obvious one is when I had a partner who
constantly smoked weed andacted very bizarrely when he
smoked weed and it wasunattractive to me and it had
social cost that I was reallyboyish.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
When he, when he was high, it was very like, like,
even vocally it was very likeyou know using the level
equality is really off-putting,really off-putting.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
And I would say please don't do this drug in
front of me On your own time.
Whatever you want, please donot do it in front of me.
And he was like well, if Ican't do my medicines, then you
can't do your medicines, so youcan't take Lexapro.
Lexapro makes me more pleasantto be around and weed makes you
less pleasant to be around.
He was like well, I don't likeit when you use your ADHD meds,

(38:03):
that makes you less pleasant tobe around, so you have to stop
those.
It's like okay, the in his mindand this was set up in so many
different places.
You know, if I, if I, had areaction, he had to have an
equal and opposite reaction,actually an unequal and opposite
reaction.
Um, you know, everything had tobe quote unquote fair and that

(38:29):
isn't.
That is the, not the definitionof immaturity.
But it's such a clear exampleof immaturity when people are
obsessed with fairness, becausethat is not how the world works.
It's just not so.
You know, I had.
This is why I love the DBT ruleof effectiveness.
This is my favorite of themindfulness how to be mindful.

(38:52):
It's like do you want to be?
Do you want things to be fairor do you want to get what you
ultimately want?
If what he ultimately wantedwas sex, attraction, love and
affection, then he should stopsmoking weed and not make it a

(39:13):
fairness game where then I haveto go off my medications because
that's the only thing he couldcome up with because I didn't do
drugs.
But in his mind it's like ifyou are going to take away one
of my wants, then I'm going totake away one of your needs,
cause that's what's fair.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Yeah, and I think I'll add to that.
The obsession with fairness isalso like cause.
We said earlier that beingmature is realizing that there's
a give and take.
Right, if I want something fromyou, I'm gonna have to respect
your limits, right?
Like I can't demand everythingfrom you.

(39:53):
It has to be fair in the sensethat, like, I could ask you
something, you reciprocate somein some ways or you know
whatever.
But it's immature to think thatthere's only one form of
fairness, which is that they getwhat they want, and if they
don't get what they want, thenthere should be some retaliation

(40:15):
.
Right, there should be.
The other person is eithersomething taken away, whereas,
like, there's a different senseof fairness for you, right, like
here's, here's what you're thatthat boyfriend you're talking
about wanted to be able to smokeweed all the time, be able to
act the way he was, which is,when he was upset, he was very
boyish about it and like whinyand pouty and for you to still

(40:38):
find him sexually attractive andyou know and and not be put off
by it, so he can do everythinghe wants and you have to respond
in the way that he would like.
There should be no consequence.
That's it the kind of lack ofaccountability.
There's no, I'm going to actthe way I want to and everyone
should just be happy with it.

(40:59):
That's the fair in their mind,which is not fair in our minds.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah, I mean it's oversimplifying a complex
situation too, right, like if inhis mind it's you take away my
toy, I take away your toy, butthe reality was he was playing
with his toy in an unhealthy wayand so he gets he, he loses his
toy and I keep my toy.

(41:25):
My toy here is my psychiatricmedications and his is drugs.
But I, you know, I, I see thata lot.
It's just like you took some,you took I take.
It's like no, we have to thinkabout all the complexities of
this and, yeah, about what'sgoing to be effective.

(41:48):
It's like how do we want thisrelationship to be run?
And I see this sometimes withfriendships too.
I think people will look atthemselves and say this is the
kind of friend I am, these arethe kinds of things I would be
willing to give, and so thatmeans that my friends have to be
the same.
These are the kinds of things Iwould be willing to give, and so

(42:09):
that means that my friends haveto be the same.
If I'm willing to give lots ofgifts, then they should be
willing to give lots of gifts.
If I'm willing to drive you tothe airport every time you want,
then you should be willing todrive me to the airport every
time you want.
It's like that's not how lifeworks.
If that's what you want, thenwhat you need to go and do is
collect a bunch of people whoare willing to drive you to the
airport anytime you want.
But what's going to be a muchmore rewarding outcome is if you

(42:31):
understand what all thesediverse people are willing to
give you know, and then can youappreciate that and then have
the nimbleness to switch betweenfriends to get different needs
met.
So I find that that's anotherkind of sign of immaturity.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's okay.
So what we're circling around isan immaturity that shows up
when that person expressessomething that they want or need
.
And then, if the world doesn'tgive it, how do they understand
that, for example, an immatureperson might think I have a need

(43:19):
and it should get met, and ifit's not, that's unfair, that's
unjust.
There's a problem, justentirely right, like it is wrong
.
That's unfair, that's unjust.
There's a problem, justentirely right, like it is wrong
, that I didn't get what I want.
And I see that in my son, whereif he wants like late at night,
he's tired, he wants a snack.
I'm like no, we already brushedyour teeth and it's time for
bed.
He's like no, like that is, howcould you do that?

(43:41):
That is so unfair.
You know he's acting like I, Iviolated something, right.
Hopefully, as he grows up hemight understand oh, I really
want a snack right now.
Maybe I want some chocolate,but I did just brush my teeth,
it's late and you know weshouldn't just eat whenever,
whatever we want all the time,right?
Or?
And mommy is not being unfair,she's just like following that

(44:02):
right, and some say somesituations it might be unfair,
that doesn't get the thechocolate Right.
It's like if I just felt like Ididn't want to give it to him,
but I'm like eating in front ofhim.
Then you know he could be like,well, okay, this situation when
I didn't get my need met ordesire for chocolate, it was
like not correct or like youknow, and this one is fair.

(44:23):
So I guess it's like thematurity is understanding when
things don't go your way tounderstand, like why and how to
problem solve.
Either either accept thatyou're not going to get what you
want or find other ways to getthat.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like if we were to
develop a primer right now forsomebody to to be able to know
whether they're the personthey're dating or, yeah, the
person I tourism dating, let gothere is a mature person or not,
yeah, what would we look for?
And one of the things I'm again, I'm, I'm I'm actively baking
my thoughts right now, so, likeI don't I don't know how well

(44:57):
formed these are.
I'd kind of be interested in howthey meet their goals.
Um are they able to effectivelymeet their goals?
Do they do it by obviously likemanipulation?
Um are they?
Are they able to handlesetbacks?
Um?

Speaker 2 (45:18):
are they able to understand that other people
have their own agency and cansay no, right.
I think that that's somethingimportant, because you can okay,
how about this?
Let's say I'm dating someone,or we were back in when we were
dating someone and, um, thatperson wants to have sex or

(45:39):
something, and we're like yes, Iknew sex was because in my mind
I was like this is what theywant, right?
That's like perfect.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
It's the perfect first instance of goal directed
behavior that people can look to.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
If you say no, I'm not going to have sex with you
tonight.
Yeah Right, and that you couldwatch to see how they react to
not getting something that theywant.
Yeah, they could bedisappointed.
People could get be.
This is the part of validationthat's so important.
You could be disappointed thatyou don't get what you want.
I feel that all the time, right,like I want something, I want

(46:14):
chocolate, and I don't get it.
It's like, oh, bummer, right,it's.
But then how do they act?
They act like it's a it's thatyou're a person who has the
right to say no, who has theirown mind, has their own ability
to control.
Like if I say no, thank you, Idon't want to have sex tonight,
and they go oh, that sucks.
Okay, I understand.

(46:35):
And they go home.
They're really like upset aboutit.
Okay, or they go, why not?
You should?
I did that.
Like, if they act like this istotally unjust and it's not
right for you to say no to them,okay, that's one sign and you
just have to watch thathappening across.
Like do they throw a tempertantrum when they don't get what
they want?

Speaker 1 (46:54):
yeah, actually it's interesting because I'm gonna
make a.
I'm gonna make an argument forwhy men, why women, should let
men buy them dinner.
This is a little bit convoluted, questionable.
Go for it, okay.
What often happens is that aman buys a woman dinner and then
he acts entitled to sex andwhat you have there is a

(47:18):
fairness trap.
Yet again, the man is showingyou what he cares about is
fairness.
I gave you your toy, I get mytoy, and that is a sign of
definite immaturity, like if aman thinks that treating

(47:38):
somebody well or paying forsomething means that the other
person owes them their body andtheir intimacy.
You know, then that is a verybig like mistaken one-to-one.
It's, it's, it's.
It's.
It's the medicine and the weed.

(47:59):
Again, you know, it's I.
I have to give up the thing Iwant.
So you should have to give upthe thing you want, even though
the thing I want is somethingthat I'm using in an unhealthy
way.
And the thing you're want,you're using something you need
and you're using it in a healthyway.
And this it's like because Igave you money, which is just
money, um, but you know it, itdinged me a little bit, hurt my

(48:19):
wallet a little bit to do that.
Then you have to owe me thething that I decided was worth
that money.
I decided that, not you, andnow you have to give it to me or
I'm going to be a dick.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
I don't know if that makes any sense.
Yeah, and I think that what that, what that shows, is what does
that dinner, uh, get you Right?
What did him paying that dinner?
Or her paying that dinner?
What does that get that otherperson?
Well, if, if they're stuck in, Ipay for dinner and that is my

(48:53):
payment for sex, like, that'sthe transaction I pay dinner,
you sex, um, but the other side,the, the woman in the situation
or you know, whatever the otherpartner might be like no, no,
no, that dinner is, let's say,your contribution, payment for,
like, getting to know me anddemonstrating willingness to be

(49:16):
committed, willingness toprovide for me, willingness to
be generous in you know, so Icould evaluate whether we should
be together in a more seriousway.
Right, like this is like oh, no, no, the dinner is part of my,
you know my need to get a longterm relationship, right, so
it's like they're underdifferent expectations for what

(49:39):
that dinner gets them.
And if the man is like, well, Ican't, I can't even believe
that the thing that I wanted andthe payment that I thought I'd
get didn't get me what I wanted,right?
Versus like, oh, we wantdifferent things right now.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
You wouldn't think that if a woman goes and has sex
with a man, that suddenly hewas her relationship.
Right.
Maybe back in the day that did.
But she doesn't get to decidethe price for sex unless she
lays it out up front, right?
If he said I'll buy you thisdinner if you have sex with me,
then great that is that is theprice.
Emotional experience has to bedealt with by another person or

(50:28):
has to be validated by anotherperson.
That's another thing.
Like people should be able toregulate their own emotional
experience and ideally, thepeople who love you will help.
But it's not an entitlement,it's yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Yeah, maturity comes with the agency, right.
Like I think that that's such asubtle difference, because it's
really tricky.
We talk about like okay, if I'mupset, how much is my husband
obligated?
Or like how much should Iexpect my husband to make me
feel better, right, and likethere is some expectation, like

(51:02):
if I'm upset, he completelyignores me.
I'd be kind of hurt and be likeit's kind of part of our
relationship that if I'm likereally upset, you should like
validate it in some way.
Yeah, um, but then it's like why, the understanding of why,
right, like I'm in my mind.
Hopefully a mature responsewould be like we are both people
who have agency, who could sayno and yes to something.

(51:25):
We we said yes to supportingeach other, right.
But if I think to myself likehe has no agency and he should,
and, as everyone should, just bethere when I'm upset, they
should never say no.
Yeah, I'm dealing with a lovedone who I'm struggling with that

(51:46):
a lot, and this is where itcomes up, where when someone has
an emotionally like someonewith BPD traits or emotionally
explosive or immature loved oneand you set boundaries, then
they get super upset.
And that's something I reallystruggle with because it makes
me feel dehumanized.
It makes me feel likeobjectified, like I say no to

(52:07):
something that they want, um,and they're like they're
treating it like I'm a badperson, that I'm harming them.
Yeah, and it it it hurts myfeelings because it's like, and
they're like yelling at me.
They're saying like how couldyou do this to me?
I'm like I, what about me?
And what I needed?
Like I, I said no to certainthings, because to this loved

(52:31):
one, because I was going throughcancer, I am going through
cancer treatment, and there'sthings I can't do, there's
things that I don't havecapacity for.
And me saying no is assertinglike my agency and saying like I
have needs and I could say noto something that you want and
and you could be disappointed,but like, understand why I can't
give you what you want.
And the other person's likeit's just unjust that you're not

(52:51):
responding to everything I want.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Here's the thing I think.
I think the reason we'recalling what we're really
dancing around is entitlement,and I think the reason we're
calling this a developmentalproblem is not that.
It's not that somebody who isentitled is just a designated
bad person who thinks ill ofothers.
I think the problem withentitlement is that the person
who is entitled truly doesn'tknow how.
They don't have the agencythemselves.

(53:14):
They don't know how to dealwith that situation themselves.
So when somebody says you haveto meet my needs, it's because
they can't meet their needsotherwise or at least they
believe that, and so they're intheir own bind.
Right?
Like if I say you have tovalidate my emotions, you have
to.
You know, help me with this.

(53:36):
It's because I don't believe Ican do it myself.
Interesting, you need to meetmy need, you need to have sex.
I can't have sex by myself.
I don't know how that one works, but it's like I, I, you know,
and this is where emotionregulation comes in again, right
?
Is that?
Like, if you don't, if you have, if you don't have matured
emotion regulation, then you aregoing to come across as

(53:56):
entitled, because you areconstantly going to be seeking
it from other people and whenthey don't give it to you,
you're going to be thrown into astate of desperation, and
that's going to come across asentitled that's a really good
point.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah to not be yeah.
And it just makes like when youpicture, like what it makes
sense for a kid like young kid,versus an adult, like that kid
can't regulate everything, likecan't meet all of his needs on
his own and it makes sense forhim to feel entitled to having
me feed him, breastfeed him,right, um.

(54:30):
And then there there is thissense of like unconditional love
that feels like nice but likeimmature, like he can storm and
flip, you know, do this and I'llstill love him and be there, um
.
But then to expect that whenhe's older, like to storm and
thrash around and yell and throwthings and the person sticks
around, that's, that's not.

(54:52):
That's that seems immature.
That's like what you get whenyou're a two-year-old, and I'm
sorry if you didn't get thatwhen you're a two-year-old, but,
like if you're in adultrelationships, you can't act
everything you want and geteverything you need and this is
the bind that cluster b is in isthey didn't get it and now they
can't do it alone.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
They don't believe they can do it alone, and the
problem is is that other peopleare not going to give it to them
.
They're just not, at least notfor very long.
And so then, what do they do?
Well, hopefully, they go to DBTand they, they get reparenting
and they, they learn how to doit again with a therapist, they

(55:29):
learn how to do it for the firsttime you know um, but that's
that's the sad.
That's the sad thing and, and Ithink, a huge, maybe motivating
factor for people with at leastbpd I don't know about NPD, but
is that they might if they canaccept, like I.

(55:51):
What happens when other peopledon't meet my needs is that I
feel an emotion that I can'tregulate on my own and then I
demand other people do it,because it's the only way I can
regulate.
They're not going to do it,they're just not, and I have to
find another way, and the otherway is treatment.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Or the other way could be other healthy or
unhealthy mechanisms of likedrinking or, you know, drugs or
something like that.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Right, Right, yeah.
So you, yeah, you could opt for.
You could opt for unhealthymechanisms or you could leapfrog
from person to person untilthat you know until they get
burnt out.
But those are the options and Ithink a lot of immature people
aren't going to accept thatother people flat out won't meet
their needs because they're notgoing to even do the

(56:40):
mentalization to do that.
I mean, if I fundamentallycouldn't meet my own emotional
needs, I don't know if I wouldeither, because I don't even
know if I would have the scopefor understanding that other
people can regulate their ownemotions and so therefore have
their own agency and boundariesand aren't available to do that

(57:02):
for others all the time.
Well, I guess the final thing Iwould say is just to take it
down a little bit from cluster B.
I had a friend, you know shewas telling me about some guy
that she really liked and heseemed like he liked her and he
like drove three hours to visither and they were hanging out
and but she still didn't know ifhe liked her.

(57:23):
But she was like prettypositive, like who would do that
, right?
So she texted him after thatand was like hey, I just like
really wanted to let you knowthat I like you and yada, yada,
yada, right, and he's like oh,I'm sorry, I have a girlfriend.
And then to me she was like butdoesn't it seem like he likes me
?
I was like.
It doesn't matter, he'sundeveloped, like.

(57:43):
Whether he.
You know this kind of behavior.
Look for maturity or immaturity.
I think that'll serve youbetter than does he or does he
not like me, or is he?
Or is he not a jerk?
Right?
It's like somebody who drivesthree hours away from their own

(58:06):
relationship to visit you,flirts, never talks once about
your relationship, but then actssurprised when you say you like
them.
That is immaturity in action,right, and so I think, like,
whether cluster B or not, it canbe very helpful to you out in
the dating world to just askyourself am I encountering a
mature person?
And if I'm not, is it going tobe worth me mothering them or

(58:29):
waiting until they develop tohave a good relationship?

Speaker 2 (58:34):
And we're saying the way to test that is see what
happens when they have to dealwith a conflict between their
wants and needs and someoneelse's like yours wants and
needs, and see what they do withit.
Like they could be disappointed.
But do they act like they don'teven register that someone else

(58:54):
can have a different need andwant or like that he doesn't
that that example you gave, likedidn't register that those
behaviors like driving to seeher or whatever, can give her
the impression that he'sinterested, right.
If that, if the other equationis not, if the other mind in the
equation is not even entering,then that's immaturity because

(59:18):
he's not even thinking aboutthat.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
There's multiple minds going on yeah, I think you
can look for I.
I think that's the number onething I would look for is can is
this person holding multipleperspectives at one time and
demonstrating that?
How is this person meetingtheir goals?
Does this person have emotionalgranularity?
That's what we talked about atthe start of the episode, right?

Speaker 2 (59:37):
And the whole nuance and complexity.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
Yeah, yeah, can they talk about having multiple
emotions at the same time andcan they pinpoint?
How, how do they?
What do they do with theiremotions?
But I don't think you need topathologize.
I think you can just say thatthis, this person, is in
different developmental phaseand that's not going to be fun
to be with.
Yeah, I think that's all I haveto say.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
I think that's great.
Yeah, I think at some point wecould talk about how emotional
maturity shows up in parents,because I know that, like a lot
of people are interested in thatwe're mostly been talking about
, like emotional maturity anddating, um, and like peer and
peers, but like what happenswhen you're raised by someone
who's supposed to teach youmaturity and they're not mature

(01:00:20):
themselves.
I think that's a very painful.
That's even more of a painfulsituation sometimes.
So yeah very cool all righty.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
Well, um, if you guys want to hold multiple
perspectives at the same time,um, and give us a five-star
rating on ample podcast andspotify.
We would love it and we'll seeyou next week.
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(01:00:51):
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Why Are They Acting Like a Child? Understanding Emotional Immaturity