#166. The Traditions and Limitations of the Master Apprentice Model with Dr Travis Sherwood

Episode Transcript
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Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (00:00):
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It's Marissa Lee here, and I'mso excited to be sharing today's

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It's time now to share your giftwith others develop a positive
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charge, it's time for you tolive your best life. It's time
now for a voice and beyond. Sowithout further ado, let's go to
today's episode.

(03:20):
This week, on a voice andbeyond, we revisit an
enlightening episode with mydear friend and colleague, Dr.
Travis Sherwood. Travis, who wasrecently honoured for his
article powerful dynamicsexploring the evolution of the

(03:41):
master apprentice tradition inthe Journal of singing has been
recognised with an honourablemention. In the 2023 Richard
suggested swma Award forExcellence in Writing. Travis
hold advanced degrees from theUniversity of Southern

(04:02):
California, and has recentlybeen tenured and promoted to
associate professor of voice atSan Diego State University's
School of Music and Dance. HisActive Performance career
includes recent engagements withAmarillo opera, opera, ala carte

(04:26):
de la Hoya symphony, and variousinternational festivals. In
addition to his performanceKorea, Travis frequently leads
master classes and lectures onartistic literacy, student
centred pedagogy, voice pedagogyand vocal literature. He

(04:49):
recently presented acompassionate shift to a more
student centred pedagogy at theCal Western nats conference in
This episode, Travis delves intohis research on the master
apprentice models, traditionsand limitations. He explains how

(05:11):
this model enforces a hierarchyin the teacher student
relationship, often leadingstudents to prioritise their
teachers insights over theirown, hindering their expressive
and autonomous voiceexploration. Travis advocates

(05:32):
for evolving teaching practicesto create safer, more supportive
learning environments. So joinDr. Travis Sherwood and AI for a
thought provoking discussionthat challenges traditional
teaching methods and encouragesreflection on fostering

(05:54):
creativity and independence invoice education. So, without
further ado, let's go to today'sepisode.

(06:15):
Welcome to a voice and beyondour guest this week is Travis
Sherwood. How are youtravellers?

Dr Travis Sherwood (06:23):
I'm doing well. Marissa, how are you?

I'm doing good. And I'm so excited
to see you. Because the one andonly time I've ever met you was
in Vienna at icbt Back inAugust. And we ended up a bit of
a chat and getting to know eachother very briefly, but it was
your presentation, I was soimpressed with and I thought I

(06:48):
have to have you on the show,and learn a little bit more
about the topic that you werepresenting on. And that was
about the master apprenticemodel. So let's get to know you.
What was your trainingbackground?

Well, I have my bachelor's degree from
Westminster choir College, whereI studied voice performance and
music education. And so I guessI always knew that I was going
to be an educator in some way.
But I realised that going intothe K 12 classroom was not my my
goal. And so I kept pursuingdegrees, as one does, I guess,

(07:23):
and in our field, and I went onto get a master's at University
of Southern California, inperformance. And then that was
sort of like, I was finishingthat up. We were entering a
recession here in the States,and the economy was really not
doing all that great, sort of, Iguess, like we are right now in

(07:43):
the economy was was reallyfloundering. And so USC offered
me the opportunity to stay on mydoctorate. And at first, I just
started my doctorate as sort ofa well, I don't really have
anything else to do Sure, I'llstart a doctorate right now. Why
not? Why not right. And as I wasprogressing, throughout the
degree, I realised that teachingin the studio was what I really

(08:04):
wanted to do. Because through myTA ship, I was doing a lot of
individual lessons, as well asteaching group voice classes, I
realised that that was that wasa real focus of mine. And so
that's how I kind of came to thecareer that I have right now,
where that's primarily what I dois studio teaching.

Yes. So along your trajectory there into
teaching, you must have hadsinging teachers yourself,
because you, you obviously youmust be a trained baritone. What
was your learning experience?
Like as a student?

Yeah, I would first like to say I had
some fantastic teachersthroughout the years. My
undergraduate teacher atWestminster was Marvin Kenzie,
who is just a prince among men.
I mean, what just a reallyfantastic human being. And I
learned a lot from him about thefundamentals of singing, but
more so I would say about thefundamentals of teaching. And

(09:02):
Marvin is really a prime exampleof a student centred teacher,
but I don't know that he wouldreally ever use that word. I
think he would just say it'sgood teaching. Right. And so
from an early ish age, I wasreally exposed to student
centred teaching in the voicestudio. I didn't necessarily

(09:23):
recognise it to be that at thetime, but now when I reflect
back on it, I realised that'swhat I was. That's what I was
experiencing. i And then when Iwent throughout my my other
degree, I started with a varietyof teachers, my teacher at USC,
was had a very successfulperforming career. And so he was
in and out at times, and so theywould bring in different

(09:44):
teachers to sub for him. And soI had a variety of perspectives
throughout my time there whichnow as the teacher I reflect on
and I'm very grateful for itbecause it gives me sort of a
much larger perspective of whatit means to teach voice But I
did experience at times thatsort of master apprentice model,
when you look at what we'veexperienced historically as the

(10:07):
profession, that's where webegan. And that has really
perpetuated through contemporarytimes up through the 21st
century.

Okay, so then when you started to teach,
did you start teaching yourstudents in the way that you
were taught? Were you actuallyperpetuating it with that
knowing?

I would say, there were certain elements of
my teaching that definitely did.
Yeah, absolutely. Because we allat the beginning, to a certain
extent, teach the way that wewere taught, right, we're just
sort of mimicking what weconsider to be the best
practices of our teachers andhoping that it sinks in with our
students, I think back on thestudents that I taught,

(10:48):
especially with, you know, ateaching assistant for my
masters and my doctorate, and Iwould love to give them all a
refund now. Because now, butlike being, you know, I've been
out for quite some time now I'm,this is my 10th year of full
time teaching beyond my degrees.

(11:09):
And so I've definitely grown alot as a teacher. But there were
certain elements of that masterapprentice tradition that I
certainly perpetuated early inmy career. And basically, I
think it was I was just tryingto carry on in a role that I
understood, yes, right. Andstudents I've found in still
would love to fall into thatapprentice role, often, because

(11:32):
that's a role that theyunderstand. You know, and so
yeah, there were Yes, there weretimes where I perpetuated that

I've come across a couple of those
students this week, who haven'tpractised and would rather spend
their lesson practising onto myI'm not here to be paid to help
you practice. You haven'tfigured this out, you're at the
university level, and we have aproblem. But tell us what

(12:01):
inspired your curiosity into themaster apprentice model? And,
like, maybe let's start bydescribing what is it and how
did it come to be? Yeah,

well, the history of it, the master
apprentice tradition actuallygoes way back. It goes beyond
music in singing, right? Thiswas one of the earliest models
of formal education that we hadprimarily in Europe is where it
started, right? It hits itsstride in the 16th century. And
it's adopted by guildsthroughout Europe to educate

(12:37):
young people in any trade orcraft. Yeah. So if you wanted to
learn how to make shoes, thenyou went and you became an
apprentice for a cobbler. If youwanted to be a carpenter, then
you apprenticed with acarpenter. And so that model,
though, is very different thanwhat we see today. Because you
would actually move in withwhoever that master was, the

(12:59):
apprentice would move in withthem, essentially become Yeah,
yeah, they would move in withthem. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And you would essentially,you'd enter into a contract with
them, and you would become whatwas considered to be a member of
the family, though, of course,like the concept of family at
this time was very differentthan what we perceive now. You

(13:21):
know, family was top downstructure with the master at the
top, who was almost always theman of the house, right? So it's
a very patriarchal philosophy.
And there was this idea thatpatriarch of the home, the
master of the home, receives hispower from God, essentially. And
so he exercises his divine rightto educate every member of the

(13:45):
household, not only whatever theskill or craft was, but also in
morality, in religion,basically, in every aspect of
becoming a developed humanbeing, or at least what was
considered to be a developingbeing, you know, of this time.
So this master apprenticetradition, it was, but it was

(14:06):
not only a important part of aneducational structure, but it
was also an important part ofsort of like a socio economic
structure, because it reallylimited who had access to
education. And it was the masterwho made the decision who had
access to education. And so itactually, it helped discourage

(14:26):
individual thought, and alsohelped me keep people at a
certain socio economic level.
Right. And so keeping the masterhigher Well, everybody who was
not deemed worthy theopportunity to study they will
not have the opportunity to youknow, become a carpenter become

(14:48):
a shoemaker or becoming asinger. Wow,

that's incredible. And it holds so
seems so unethical. I mean, bytoday's standards, that is so
The article you'd be locked upfor something like that almost.
Absolutely, yes. And I love thatyou touched upon that it was the
man because when you say Master,you think of master is the full

(15:15):
term for Mr. Isn't it? So, ithas that that gender bias. So
you have a socio economic bias,you have a gender bias, you have
this elitism, you have thistroll there is this religious
factor. I mean, wars happenedbecause of all this stuff now.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And when you break it down, it is
seriously messed up.

It really is. And, you know, if you look
at it in terms of take it out ofthe, the larger context, and
look at what did this mean forus training singer, right. And
so, the singer would move inwith the master teacher, they
would receive daily voicelessons, the singer was often
forbidden to practice outside ofthe purview of the master, so

(16:04):
they only sang in front of themaster, right? The master
controlled any and allrepertoire that was going to be
assigned, often repertoire wouldnot be aside, sometimes for more
than a year of study, juststudying vocalese is in studying
the fundamentals the technique,at the same time, they would
also be studying morality,religion, and usually at least

(16:25):
one other instrument, because atthis time, it was considered a
singer would no be proficient atat least one other instrument,
especially if you were going tobe a master teacher. They would
also of course, work onlanguages and history and
performance practice, and all ofthis stuff, which that
individualised attention soundsreally good. But of course, it

(16:45):
also limits any input from thestudent in terms of artistry and
creativity, right? It was allthe Masters answer is correct,
in the student has to just learnwhat the master is feeding them,
essentially. So

it is 100%, excluding any type of
vocal freedom, vocalexpressivity, emotional
engagement to the repertoire,it's just destroying
individuality and authenticity.
Absolutely. So where was the joyin singing?

That's a wonderful question. I mean, I
think, you know, you were stillable to progress through this
programme and hopefully end uphaving a career, which was the
ultimate goal and be able tomake, you know, socio economic
advancement for yourself andmaybe your family as well. But
you were entered into a contractwith this master a literal
contract. So your family signedyou over to them and said, You

(17:45):
are in control of theireducation, right, and the master
would not be paid for theirteaching, until after the singer
began a professional career. Andso the apprentice singer
essentially becomes a financialinvestment. For the Master. Yes,
they need to make sure that thissinger gets out and has a career
if they want to receive any sortof return on their investment.

(18:08):
And at that point, if they do goout and have a career that
apprentice singer was oftenowed, they owed the master about
half of their income for thefirst couple of years of their
career. Now each contract was,of course different. But that
was that was about the average.
And so it was was a hugefinancial investment for the
master, but also a hugefinancial investment for the

(18:30):
apprentice to

Yes. And at what age did these
apprentices would they assignedor relinquished by their
families to a master? It

really depended on the situation it
could happen at any agethroughout throughout childhood,
but sometimes it would happenvery young, particularly for for
boys. So for example, like if apre pubescent boy started voice
lessons, and he would be a boysoprano at that time, most of
the time, the end, the masterteacher decided that he wanted

(19:06):
to preserve the integrity ofthat boy soprano voice, it was
often the master teacher who hada big part of the decision
whether or not you should becastrated.

I'm speechless. You

want you want to talk about ultimate
control, right?

I'm absolutely like right at this
second speechless. It makes mewant to cry. What? I'm sure it
wasn't so miserable, or maybe itwas so miserable. We really
don't know the emotional impactthis must have had on these
boys. But what a place ofauthority and control. It is

(19:45):
really. In today's day and age.
It is so sick, because we talkabout holding safe spaces for
our students. This is theextremity of holding a safe
space for a student So thesepoor boys, they could have lived
with these people had this lifebeing castrated and then maybe
not even have had a career.

(20:10):
Correct? And then have nofamily, correct? Oh, well, when
I was going to interview you, Iknew this was messed up. But
this is even worse than what Ithought. And I don't think our
community even realises theextent of this. That's

why I think understanding the history of the
master apprentice tradition isso important, when we see the
elements that are stillpermeating our current pedagogy.
Right, we need to understandthat these many of these
elements have a much darkerpast. Oh, yes. Like, you know,
and so when we advocate forgetting rid of them, or for

(20:50):
evolving and becoming morestudent centred, that it's
important to have the historybehind it as to why we are
advocating for this change.
Okay,

so what were the benefits of this
training? Were there anybenefits?

I suppose, yes, there had to have been
benefits, of course,individualised attention, right.
I mean, usually master teacherswould basically take on one
student at a time, get themthrough and then take out
another one, sometimes theywould take on more than one at a
time, but it was a lot of reallyindividualised attention. I'm

(21:28):
sure there are many studentstoday who would love to have a
daily voice lesson from theirteacher. I mean, that would, you
know, there would be benefits tothat for sure. Also, having that
investment from the teacher towhere they really wanted to make
sure that you went out and had acareer. Yeah, that I think that
would be really important. Sothe teacher essentially acts as

(21:51):
like an impresario, or artisticmanager for you, that would be
welcomed by by many studentstoday. Right, but the freedoms
that you have to give up to havethat? I don't know that that is
what's best for our profession.
In fact, I do know that is notwhat's best for our profession
going forward?

Well, from my perspective, my goal
with my students is for them tobecome autonomous. When I teach
a lesson, even what I give themto do in their practice, is
always something that they don'thave to think about, how do I
actually do this, they leaveknowing exactly what they've got

(22:32):
to do, and give them all thosetools. So when they go home,
they don't need me there. Andthat's why I say to them, Look,
this is a no brainer way offixing this problem, you can do
this at home, you don't need meholding your hand. So I always
give them the easiest way topractice and to work on

(22:52):
something that is a problem forthem. Because that is what we
want for our students.

To I think you as voice teacher, we're
basically always trying to putourselves out of a job, right?
Like I one of the first things Isay to my students, is, when I
start with a new student, I say,I want you to get to a point
where you feel like you do notneed me, that is my goal. And I
want to help you get there asfast as I can, you know, because

(23:19):
it is it's all about helpingstudents become autonomous
artists, where they makechoices, and they trust those
choices in both their technique.
And in their artistry, right,which of course we know that to
inform each other. It's asymbiotic relationship between
the two, if we are trying tocreate a dependent relationship,
right, which is what we see inthe master apprentice model, is

(23:41):
that dependent relationship,yes. Right? Where the student is
dependent upon the master forall of the answers in the master
is dependent upon the student tojustify their their thoughts,
right. And also, financially,you know, I gotta get this
person through, and I gotta makesure that they have a career so
that I'm going to get some moneyback out of this.

Yes. So there are those limitations
we've just talked about wherethe student is totally
dependent, and also theirartistry is kind of being
diminished and their sense ofpersonal expression is pretty
much non existent. Other otherlimitations to that that

(24:28):
teaching model.

There's a tonne of limitations, the
limitations are as limited asthe perspective of the master,
right because the mastercontrols every aspect of the
education. So if the master ishoned in on only Western
classical music, and that is theonly music that we are going to
sing that we are going to pursueweld and that is the only music

(24:51):
that their students are going tosing and their students are
going to pursue right which weknow is extraordinarily limiting
and not going to fit foreveryone. Student also, this
ends up becoming sort of amethodical approach to teaching,
where it's, I have this onemethod for teaching people how
to sing. And that is it. Andwe're going to use this method.

(25:13):
And that's the method that isgoing to work. Well, we
understand as teachers ofsingers, right? That every
singing body is different,right? And it's not possible to
teach with one method that weneed to teach the person we need
to talk to them, we need to askquestions, we need to know how
things are feeling in theirbody, what are they thinking

(25:36):
about in the moment of singing,that is inspiring them to open
up and sing with this freedom orto feel some sort of resistance
or tension in the body, right.
And the idea that I as a teacherwill ever understand a student's
body better than they do isutterly preposterous to me,
right, there's no way that Iwill understand that I might

(25:58):
understand, like the anatomy andthe physiology and the science
of acoustics and stuff like thatbetter than them. But I do not
understand what they are feelingin their body better than they
do.

Yes. And not only that, but we haven't
walked a day in their shoes, wehaven't lived a day in their
lives. We don't know what'sgoing on with them emotionally
and mentally as well. We don'tknow what's going on outside of
that voice studio, unlessthey're prepared to share. And
then we're not psychologists,and today, there's a lot of talk

(26:34):
about creating safe spaces forour students, we need to hold
space for our students voices tobe heard. We talk about
authenticity, we talk aboutvulnerability, we talk about
exploring artistry and vocalidentity. So there's a lot of
mental and emotionalimplications, then with this

(26:57):
kind of teaching model and hearthat by what you're saying, now,
we're moved from the 16thcentury. And I, you're referring
to today's teaching, and thereare teachers out there that
still continue to use this typeof teaching, this is what I was
taught. And this is what I'mgoing to teach you. And you

(27:18):
can't sing anything but Westernclassical music. And we're going
to talk about that in a moment.
Because I have a lot to sayabout that, as you can imagine.
What are some of those mentaland emotional implications that
you've come across in some ofyour research?

Yeah, well, I think, you know, it's, it's
the student being able to sharea piece of themselves in their
singing right, in theirartistry, technique exists to
allow the body the freedom to beexpressive, right technique does
not exist in a vacuum. In myopinion, I think we probably

(27:55):
both agree on that. Yeah,absolutely. So when we look at
technique from a masterapprentice model, then technique
exists in a vacuum, right,because technique exists based
on what works for the master andhow they feel they're able to be
expressive, and how they areable to communicate with their

(28:17):
audience. And the way that mystudents experience emotion now
is different than the way that Ido most of my students are at a
very different age than I am,most of them are much, much
younger than I am. And so theway that they experienced
emotion is very different. WhenI think back about the way I
experienced emotion from 18 to21, or 22 years old, was quite

(28:40):
different that I do now. Right,and so the way that that comes
through in your singing is goingto be different at that age, as
well. So allowing them thefreedom, allowing them the
space, creating the space, rightin the studio for them to
express what they are feelingthrough the technique that they
have on that given day. I thinkthat that's such an important

(29:04):
part of what we do as studentcentred teachers.

Yes. And you would spend your whole
lesson as a student trying toplease the teacher. That's

right.
That's right. I think part ofthat is, at least in the states
are a lot of our students. Whenthey get to the undergraduate
level, they have grown up in aneducational system that works on
a binary, right where they theyneed to find the right answer.
There is a right answer. Andthere is a wrong answer. Yes.

Right.
Yes. 100. And there's a goodsound or a beautiful sound. And
there's an awful

Right, right. And so I find that
students often in lessons arestriving to get things right.
And in that master apprenticemodel that's based on a binary
there is the Masters opinion,which is the right one and
everything else is wrong. writewell in student centred
learning. That's not true. Thereis no one right way to sing. And

(30:06):
there's no one right way to feelsinging. There's no one right
way to experience your voice inthe moment of singing. I think
back I was working when I was astudent, I was working with a
teacher one time who was asoprano. And she was giving me a
lesson. And she was a lovelyperson in a very beautiful
voice. And I respect her singingvery much. But she kept telling

(30:30):
me that I needed to feelresonance in my cheekbones, and
that I needed to feel that in mycheekbone. I have never once in
my life felt any sort ofvibrational resonance with my
cheekbones. Well singing, I'msure she did, right? I'm sure
she did. But like, if you wereto put the two of us side by
side, we're very differenthumans. And we're very different

(30:53):
instruments in terms of ourvoice tied in. So I spent a long
time trying to figure out how tofind resonance in my cheekbones,
which just is not in the cardsfor me. I feel it very
differently. And so I thinkthat's one one of the drawbacks
of that master apprentice modelis that like, well, this is what

(31:13):
I feel what I'm saying. This iswhat's right, you should feel
that too.

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(33:31):
teachers themselves, okay, we'vetalked about the students, but
the teachers themselves. Ibelieve that as teachers, we
should be lifelong learners, weshould never stop learning
doesn't matter how long you'vebeen teaching for, you need to
continue your education. And ourteaching industry is constantly

(33:55):
evolving, music is evolving, thelandscape of music is constantly
changing. Its dynamic. So whatlimitations then are there for
the teacher themselves?

Absolutely.
Yeah. In that master apprenticemodel, it's I mean, the the idea
of master right, is that youhave mastered the art of singing
you, you know it all, which weknow is not possible, that we
have to be lifelong learners.
And if I'm honest, and I learnedthings from my students on a
daily basis, yes, yes. I willask them questions in the lesson

(34:29):
now say, What did that feellike? What were you thinking
about when in the moment ofsinging there? And they will
answer and I think that is sucha fantastic way to phrase that
that is so profound, I havenever thought about it that way.
I want to try that my singing.
You know, I'm going to use thatphrase with students. And so
some of the, the terminologythat I'll use and lessons I've
stolen from students becausethey're great observers of their

(34:52):
their own voice and their ownexperience. And so in that
master purchase model again,You're not open to that you're
not open to inviting students toshare their experiences, and to
talk about what they're thinkingand feeling in the moment of
singing, right? And so you, youlose that opportunity to learn
from them as the teacher,

yes. I always say to my students, when
we're exploring something new,or we're working on something a
little different in the lesson,I always say, look, there's no
right or wrong here. Just tellme in your words, what you're
feeling. And based on what theytell me, is how I will speak

(35:37):
back to them. Right. And theother thing too, sometimes I
always like to gauge in terms ofeffort level, you know, with one
being the least amount of effortand 10 being the greatest amount
of effort. Where does that sitfor you? And I might think it's
around the seventh or an eighth,they say, six, our work on a

(35:58):
six, it's never about thatfeedback from our students is so
important, because we were notin their minds, and even talk
about volume levels. You know,where do you feel that is? Oh,
you think that's five? Okay,let's try for a four. Now
there's no right or wrong here.
Let's work at what you perceiveto be a four. Absolutely.

I think one of the points you brought up
that is so important in studentcentred teaching is embracing
the vocabulary of the students100 cents. So often, I'll hear
where students will sing in thenthe teacher will ask them what
they're experiencing, thestudent tries to explain it. And
then the teacher goes off on adiatribe of you're using this

(36:43):
word wrong. No, that's not theword that you want to use to
describe that. No, that's anincorrect vocabulary word. Who
cares about all that stuff?
Right? Like, that's, there'stime to learn that stuff, of
course, right? But if a studentmaybe, you know, calls a part of
their body by the wrong name,right? They are they're
describing their anatomy, andthat maybe they they don't do it
exactly correctly. Who cares?

Oh, yeah, terminology around
registers. Because, look,there's 1000 different names for
all the different registers. AndI know, in the US, it's
predominantly still head andchest, whereas here, we're kind
of leaning towards M, one, M,two, the different modalities,
so and there's a real push touse that language, but the

(37:30):
students still use head andchest and I go, Well, look,
whatever you call, it, is whatI'm gonna call it I'm not I'm
not a terminology snob, I thinkwe have to speak in the language
that our students know, in that,we don't always have time to
give them a vocabulary lesson.
And it's about the less we canget them out of their heads.

Right. And when you when you start giving
that vocabulary lesson that iscreating that hierarchy, right?
You are saying, I know moreabout singing than you do. And
so I'm the master, you're thestudent, and students will back
down, they will just they willtake that that submissive role,
right? And they will just try toget the right answer from you.

(38:13):
And so the next time you askthem to describe what they're
feeling, or what they'rethinking in a moment of singing,
they're going to spend moreeffort searching for the right
vocabulary to please you thanthey are to actually like, share
what they are thinking orfeeling in the moment of
singing.

Yeah, I'm not there to preach. I'm
there to get the best out of thestudent and in whatever way that
works for them is how I look atit. Have you seen this model
still being used? At present?
Yes, yes.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. At least
certain elements of it. Right.
You know, of course, lots of haschanged. I many students do not
live with their voice teachers,you know, anymore. And I think
we're probably all very thankfulfor that. Yes, right. Exactly.
I'm glad we got rid of that.

family in the future, or now.

That's true.
That's right. You're absolutelycorrect. Yeah. We can we yeah,
we can. We can be very thankfulfor that.

Travis is running around.

That's right. No. That's funny. But you
know, I think there are certaindefinitely certain elements that
are permeating the profession,right? There are plenty of
teachers who still control allthe repertoire that their
students say, right, they wouldnot give the student any input
in repertoire. There are plentyof teachers who insist that the

(39:45):
students sing the repertoire forthem before they go out and sing
it in public. Right? No, youhaven't sung it for me yet. No,
you cannot go out and performit. Right. There are plenty of
teachers who don't create spacein the lesson by asking open and
I did questions so that studentshave an opportunity to talk
about their experience, right?
There are plenty of teachers whostill look at the teaching of

(40:07):
singing as sort of like adiagnosis and correction of
faults, rather than establishinga process for an efficient
technique that is going to givethem the freedom to be
expressive. Yeah, there areplenty of teachers who
perpetuate studio politics byclaiming to have the secret to
vocal technique. And the onlyway to get that secret is to

(40:30):
study in their studio, some

Dr Marisa Lee Nai (40:34):
methodologies can fall into that category,
teachers who believe they havethe Holy Grail,

yes, whole methodologies.

And if you pay me a lot of money, I
will give you the secret, but Iwill drip feed it to you in the
same order that I drip feed toevery other student that comes
in and pays that same amount ofmoney.

Dr Travis Sherwoo (40:58):
methodologies are a direct descendant of the
master apprentice stewardship.
Without a doubt,

never thought of that. Well. And so
this method, okay, let's thismodel of teaching, I want to
talk about CCM in a second. Butit must also prevent the
classical world of teaching fromevolving to absolutely, yeah,

it completely limits the
possibility for evolution,right? Because often evolution
comes through new ideas, if allwe're doing is perpetuating the
same old ideas that we weretaught, then evolution is going
to cease? Yes.

And has the landscape of classical music
change at all, like the actualmusic itself over the years? And
is this model not accommodatingthat landscape? Well,

I mean, I think the the landscape of
classical music has definitelychanged and evolved over time. I
think it's also important topoint out that like, when we
started in the 16th century,with this master apprentice
model and singing, that it didevolve over time, right. And so
then when we get into the 19thcentury, it kind of

(42:13):
differentiates in these twodifferent Divergent Paths,
right, those who continue downthis road of master apprentice,
it's all about the methodology,and those who start to embrace a
more student centred or COlearner structure, right. And a
lot of this honestly has to dowith the scientific evolution

(42:37):
that happened at that time,right? We're in the 19th
century, we're in the peak ofthe Industrial Revolution. And
so there's this product orprocess, philosophy driving
society. And so there arecertain teachers who continue to
embrace that, right. And they,they, they embrace the
scientific evolution and singingin actually start to begin to

(42:57):
use that as another way ofreally establishing the
hierarchy between master andapprentice, right. And then
there are other teachers whoembrace the science, but at the
same time, realise that singingis an art. And so we allow the
art to be informed by what weunderstand in science, but not

(43:18):
let science determine the art.
Right. And this bifurcation, Ibelieve, has continued
throughout the 20th century, andnow into the 21st century as
well. So it's important to saythat we have since the 19th
century really had teachers onboth sides of the equation that
it just hasn't been, it justhasn't been master apprentice

(43:39):
the entire time. Right?

You touched on an important point
there science. And Voice Sciencehas really evolved over the
past, I don't know, 20 years,especially with all this looking
at acoustics and everythingelse, which I put my hand up and
I say, I'm not that clever atacoustics. You know, but I own

(44:04):
that there's other things I'mgood at as a teacher, and
especially being good at studentcentred learning. How does that
impact all of this to me ifyou're, as you said, if you're
looking at science, and can webe student centred and be really
good science based voiceteachers?

I think it's a balancing act. I think Voice
Science offers a lot to ourprofession. Right. But I think
it also has the potential tocreate an even further divide
between the student and theteacher. And so when the teacher
understands the science, andthey kind of hold that over the

(44:47):
students head as though Iunderstand the anatomy and
physiology of singing, andtherefore I understand your body
better than you do. Right. As wesaid earlier, that's that's the
misnomer. There's no A way thatthat's possible, you might
understand the functionality ofthe body better than they do,
but you don't understand whatthey're experiencing in their
own body. So I do think thatVoice Science has the potential

(45:12):
to serve the profession. But italso has the potential to really
dig into that divide. And Iworry about the evidence based
movement in voice pedagogy.
Because evidence based in its atits core is not student paced.
It is not student centred, it'sbased in the scientific

(45:35):
evidence. And I don't see howstudents centred an evidence
base can coexist. I'd love tohave a conversation with
somebody who is a diehardevidence based pedagogue and
debate that issue I'd love forthem to prove me wrong, which
maybe they very well can,

maybe we could do that on this platform.
I'll see who I can. There's acouple of names that come to
mind. That

would be that would be wonderful. Yeah, I
would, I would love thatopportunity, I'd love to be
proven wrong about it. Because Ido think there's a lot of value
in the research that that ishappening. But if it creates, if
it's used in the lesson, tofurther that divide, and create
a hierarchy between student andteacher, then in my book, it is
it's not worth it

to comments there. First up, it's I
feel, it's also creating adivide in our teaching
community, as those who say,Look at me, and look at what I
know. And it's this way, or thehighway. And if you don't
understand this, then you're nota good teacher, and you're not

(46:45):
worthy, then I feel to whatyou're saying. Is that you by
teaching this way, or havingthat mentality around science,
you're holding students toransom. Yes.

Absolutely.
That's a good way to put it.
Yes, you are. You are you pay meand I will bestow my scientific
knowledge upon you, at whichpoint you will you will know how
to sing, which is of course not.
Not true. Yeah. Wow.

So this apprentice master apprentice
model? Is that part of thereason why there's still this
hierarchy this Eurocentric modelin higher education? Does it
still does it exacerbate thishigh art low art mentality, this
binary system where it's notjust about good or bad, but it's

(47:40):
CCM versus classical music?

It absolutely does, right. Because,
again, it's all within theexperience of the teacher, you
know, and so if the teacher hasonly experienced Western
classical music, and they seethat to be the hierarchy, right,
then that is what they are goingto inculcate their students
with. And then that studentstheoretically would go on and

(48:04):
teach the way that they thatthey were taught. So it, it
certainly plays a big impactinto that idea of western
classical as being the top, andthen everything else being
somewhat underneath. And I thinkI think this is even in the
vocabulary that we use one of mypersonal pet peeves, I hate the
term classically trained,because it makes it sound as

(48:28):
like, even when when a musicaltheatre singer or a ccm or jazz
or whoever says classicallytrained to me, it makes it sound
as though classical is stillbeing considered the point at
which we judge the elite. It'sYes, the point we use to judge
all other all other forms. No,it's about it's about an
efficient technique, which youcould use in classical music, if

(48:52):
that's what you choose to sing.
But you could also use the NCCM.
You could also use elements ofthat in musical theatre in jazz
in whatever genre you you'regoing to sing.

It's a worry, actually, because when
you think about it, people thatcontinue to endorse this,
especially in higher education,it is unethical, because
potentially they're teachingstudents who are paying hundreds
of 1000s of dollars for aneducation, and they can possibly
end up with no job. Absolutely.
And if you're doing an arts likea law degree, you don't go into

(49:28):
a law degree expecting thatyou're not going to work at the
end of it, that you're not goingto end up being a lawyer working
somewhere in a law practice orin the judicial system
somewhere. It's once again, itgoes back to ethics. And this
whole model that you're talkingabout, we have a code of ethics
and one of them isn't one of thetop things do no harm. This to

(49:51):
me sounds really harmful.

It absolutely it's really harmful
and also The western classicalaesthetic is just one aesthetic,
right? And it might not beingrained to somebody's
identity, the sound that we makethe vocal aesthetic that we make
as humans is a huge part of whowe are, it's a huge part of our

(50:17):
identity even just startsspeaking voice is a huge part of
our identity, right? And so whenwe engage in this vocal
aesthetic in the moment ofsinging, it's very expressive is
expressive of our innermostfeelings. And it's something
that's really primal, and it canbe something that's really
courageously vulnerable at thesame time, right? And so when we

(50:40):
deny students the opportunity toengage in a vocal aesthetic,
that is part of their identityin the moment of singing, that
we're really doing a disserviceto our students, you know, and
like, if you want to look at itfrom a historical perspective,
all right, in the 19th century,in Britain, vocal pedagogy was

(51:04):
often referred to as voiceculture. All right, and so
culture was also synonymous withthe word civilization. Yeah. And
so as Britain was going out in,they were colonising the world,
essentially.

Right.
Yeah.

Exactly.
Exactly. Yes, they're going outand colonising the world. They
would also teach this westernclassical aesthetic of sound as
being what was called civilised.
Right, and other sounds wereconsidered uncivilised. All

(51:42):
right. And so I think it'simportant that like, if we if we
understand this, yet, that it itbecomes this like sort of
symbolic gesture of sort ofcolonising not only a country,
but also somebody's body andidentity. Yeah. And so I think
it's really important that thatcontemporary pedagogues are

(52:06):
aware of the Eurocentricaesthetics that might sort of
permeate their pedagogy. Right?
And if you are honouring youridentity as the teacher over the
students in that masterapprentice model, then you're
really perpetuating thesehegemonic colonialist practices.

Oh my gosh, well as a pop rock singer,
who's had a career for 45 yearsand that's not bad considering
I'm only 21 years old. That'snot bad at all. It's not bad.
Okay, so I'm what do you callthe immaculate deception? I am

(52:47):
highly uncivilised. Highly,highly, uncivilised, I would be
a savage according to whatyou've just described.

Well, I think that's why it's important
for us again, the history is soimportant, because it allows us
to then contextualise it today,that even today, we're again,
we're not going out andcolonising new countries. I
guess that's a whole notherconversation that we could have
probably beyond the you know,the scope of today's interview.

(53:20):
So, you know, if we are tryingto create safer spaces for our
students in the studio, right,one of one of the aspects of
that we have to do is embraceaesthetics beyond the western
classical. If not, then we'redenying students the opportunity
to express their identity in themoment of singing potentially.

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(54:13):
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(54:35):
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(54:58):
opportunity, whatever you do,don't miss out on reaching our
global audience, because yourvoice deserves to be heard
everywhere. So moving into thefuture, how can we check in with
ourselves as teachers to ensurethat we're not perpetuating this

(55:22):
model?

I think there's I mean, there's lots of
really practical practices thatwe can engage with a lot of it
has to do just with askingourselves a bunch of questions,
right? Am I valuing science overthe sensations of my students?
At this moment? Is this lectureon vocal anatomy for me? Or for
my students? Like, am I am Igiving this information to show

(55:46):
them that I know it? Or is thissomething that's actually going
to help them? Right now, in thismoment of singing? Right, is now
the time to embrace the bold,artistic choice that my students
just made? Or should I give thema lesson on historical
performance practice? And allthe reasons why what they just
did was was not correct. So Ithink those are some of the just

(56:09):
the basic questions that we canask ourselves and engage with.
But there's a lot of reallystudents centre practices, I
think, number one, ask open andguided questions. In the voice
lesson. I think a lot of thequestions that are asked in
voice lessons eight, especiallyin the master apprentice model,
when a question is asked, it's aclosed question. So there is one

(56:32):
right answer to that question.
Right? It's

Dr Marisa Lee Naismit (56:35):
basically a yes or no. Right? Right or
wrong.

Exactly. In open in guided questions.
There's so many, there's so manyoptions, right? For the students
they can be,

how can we phrase that question then? So
yeah, sample? Absolutely.

So like a closed question that we want to
try to avoid students thingssomething we give them feedback,
and then they sing somethingagain, and we say, didn't that
feel better? Wasn't that better?
Right? That's Ah, sorry. That'sa very closed question.
Absolutely. Yes. Right. It's,there's one answer to that,
obviously, and you're givingthem the answer in the question.

(57:14):
And the student feels like theyhave to say, Yes, right? Yes.
When we know, we want them thefreedom to say no, that didn't
feel better at all. Oh,

give us the verb. Right,

exactly. And

once again, I always add a
disclaimer, there's no right orwrong answer here. But how does
that feel for you just describein your own words, and it's fine
for you to just say what youfeel or what you think. Right?

Right.
Sometimes a student will singsomething, maybe I give some
feedback, or they'll singsomething, and I won't even give
feedback. I will just say, Whatdo you think about that? How did
that feel? What were youthinking about in the moment of
singing? Right? Those arequestions that I can't know the
answer to, until they tell meright, so I'm not looking for
one right answer. I don't know.

(58:06):
I don't know what they werethinking about the moment of
singing. I don't know what theywere feeling. But the answers to
those questions can really helpme guide what I want to say next
to them. Absolutely right. Andso we engage in a dialogue. It's
not me teaching in themlistening, it's not a lecture,
it becomes a co learnerstructure, where we are engaging

(58:26):
in a dialogue, I am learningfrom them, they are learning
from me, we are both engaged inthe moment. And we see where
this journey takes us giving thestudents spaced in the lesson to
make choices. I've started inthe past year or two, I've
students come in, and I'll say,what exercise Have you been

(58:47):
enjoying lately? You know, orwhat exercise Have you been
using to start your practisinglately? And then they'll tell
me, and that's the exercise thatwe use to start the lesson.
Right? And it's very revealingin that moment, what exercise
have they been using? Andthey'll tell me, we'll do it.
We'll we'll go through, youknow, we'll do it many times and
take it throughout the voice.
However, it's appropriate withthat exercise. And then I'll ask

(59:09):
them a question like, so why doyou choose to start with that
exercise? What do you what areyou trying to accomplish with
that? And you're practising, youknow, and builds probably while
I'm trying to really make sureI'm connecting support to
vibration or um, you know,sometimes the answer will be
like, I don't know, I just likeit or it makes me feel good or
it energises me or it helps mefocus and find calm, right. And

(59:31):
so, having space for that in thelesson, space so students
realise that the exercises thatwe teach them are not the end
all be all, that when you'reworking on developing a process
for singing, that every exerciseyou're seeing just challenges,
elements of your process indifferent ways. But it's, it's

(59:54):
all working on the same thing.
Every exercise you've seen workson support every exercise you're
seeing works on residents,right? If you're supporting and
you're resonating a tone, you'readdressing these issues. Yeah,
the way that you accompanyexercises at the piano can
actually be either teachercentred, or student centred. If

(01:00:15):
you always double the studentsmelody, that's not student
centred, that is actuallyteacher centred, because you as
the teacher at the piano are incontrol of the tempo that they
are going to sing, you are incontrol of when they sing,
you're in control of everyaspect of the phrase, right? So

(01:00:37):
if you are to accompany may besomething where you just give
them like a 1571 underneath,right, as just some sort of
simple chord progression. Thereare a lot of times where I will
just tremolo you know, harmonicsupport underneath, so that
there's no set rhythmicstructure for the students, but
they decide when they're goingto breathe when it's time for

(01:00:57):
them to sing. They're in controlof the entire process. And they
are leading, just as we willwant them to lead when they
start to collaborate andrepertoire. Right. And so it's
like, it's little elements, it'slittle changes like that, that
you can make choosingrepertoire, right, making sure
that choosing repertoire is aformative process for both you

(01:01:20):
and the student. So you askthem, what do you what do you
want to work on? What are yourpreferences? Do you have a
specific piece that you'd liketo sing? A lot of times students
will say, No, no, I don't youknow, whatever you think is
best, whatever you think isbest. And that's when you need
to just push a little bit harderand ask a few more questions.
What about a specific language?
What about a style? What about acomposer? What about a genre?

(01:01:44):
What about a mood? Do you wantto sing a happy song, you want
to sing a sad song, you want tothink a song about love? You
want to sing something slow? Youwant to sing something fast?
Right? There's so many, like,just sort of bare bones
questions that you can ask thatcan start to make repertoire,
selection of formative process,because of course, the goal is

(01:02:06):
that they will eventually feelcomfortable picking repertoire
for their own voice.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (01:02:14):
Exactly.
Exactly. And in CCM, like in myteaching studio, I asked my
students, who are you listeningto recently? What music do you
have on your playlist? What aresome of the artists that? Who
are they that you're listeningto? What styles of music have
you been listening to? Is theresomeone that's come out recently

(01:02:37):
that you're really enjoyingtheir music. So there are ways
that we can do that in the CCMstudio too. And the other thing
that we can do in our studio, iswe can adapt repertoire, we
don't have to sing it the waythat the composer intended. We
can change, we can speed thingsup, we can change keys, we can

(01:02:58):
find other versions of the samesong. So we can adapt repertoire
for the student to make them wecan improvise notes.

Dr Travis Sherwood (01:03:10):
And you know, all those options actually
exist within western classicalrepertoire, too. We just don't
explore them enough, right? Imean, the idea of changing keys.
Yes, of course, we do that withart song all the time. But it
doesn't have to be just like thestandard published keys we can
find things in, especially withtechnology nowadays, we can buy
things and any key that we want,really, right, the idea of

(01:03:33):
having improvisation in theirornamentation right is
appropriate. And a lot of stylesof Western classical music,
finding a different arrangement.
I love to assign folk tunes, inoften I'll find different
arrangements of the same folktune to sort of fit the
aesthetic or the development ofmusic, the musical development

(01:03:53):
of the student at that time. Andso we have those options, too. I
think we just don't explore themenough. Sometimes we kind of
feel stuck with like, we'regoing to say, Schubert we're
going to do in the original key.
And that's going to be that'sgoing to be it.

A lot of classical teachers would feel
that they're dishonouring, thecomposer by doing that, is there
an allegiance to to thatcomposer that they feel that
there? It's a boundary violationin the studio to do that?

I suppose so. But I don't know. I don't
feel that way. I think I'm thereto I'm there to serve the
student in particularly in thestudio, if the music is there to
also serve the development ofthe student groups? And what are
the overall goals of the studentand what are they trying to
achieve? Right, then I'm willingto be very flexible in terms of
repertoire and findingrepertoire that is going to help

(01:04:46):
them achieve their goals. Andsometimes that means focusing on
one genre. Sometimes that meansfocusing on multiple genres
within one lesson. Right and ifthat's what that student wants
to do, When that is what is bestfor them at that moment, then
that's what we need to do. Andwe can't allow our own

(01:05:07):
insecurities with repertoire orgenres are also, in higher ed
often curriculum, right? Get inthe way of the development of
these individual artists.

I was going to use the word fear, I
suppose for a lot of teachers,they would be fearful of
stepping outside of their owncomfort zone, fear of the
unknown. What are you hoping toachieve? Or hoping to inspire
change within our voice teachingcommunity with your research and
your work? are you advocatingfor change?

Absolutely.
I think first off, we as as aprofession, we really need to
take a look at the wordpedagogy, and take it at its
face value, right? Often when wetalk about pedagogy in terms of
the teaching of singing, wethink about anatomy. And we
think about physiology. And wethink about sort of like the

(01:06:03):
process of singing. But pedagogywhen you take the word and it's
at its original context isreally about the art of
teaching. It's aboutcommunicating information,
rights. And I don't know that alot of us think about that. In
there. Actually, when you lookat the sort of the canon, you

(01:06:24):
look at the research within ourfield, there's not a tonne,
written about the art ofteaching, there's a lot written
about what we need to teach, butnot how we need to teach it. And
so I would love for us to startas a profession, grounding our
pedagogy in a philosophy andallowing that to drive the

(01:06:48):
choices that we make in thestudio. And so if we ground our
pedagogy in a student centredphilosophy, that's when we'll
start to realise whether thechoices we are making are
student centred, or perhaps thechoices and traditions that we
have been engaging with, are abit more of a teacher centred

(01:07:08):
side.

Yes, well, I'm all for the work that
you're doing. I was so pleasedto hear your lecture, your
presentation that I see VT, Ifelt that there was a little bit
of a changing of the guard thereat that conference where there
was more talk about studentcentred learning, I did a

(01:07:32):
presentation myself, our dearcolleague, David Cisco, also
spoke about this and, and it wasvery pleasing to hear all of
this, rather than hearing theusual talk that goes on and look
at what I know, this is how it'sdone. It's this is it, we've got

(01:07:53):
the Holy Grail here, we have thesecret. We've done this research
in something that no one reallycares about, and is of no use to
anybody, but it's given me aPhD. Anyway, don't, I'm asked
Australians are very upfront, wedon't have that one advice,

(01:08:17):
we're going to start wrappingup, because you've been very
generous with your time here.
And I could talk to you foreverabout all of this. I just want
to keep learning more. I'm beingselfish here. What advice would
you give to teachers in ourcommunity at the moment, based
on on your research?

I would say the best advice I could give is
question, question, what you'redoing, not in a way to develop
insecurity, right in what wehave to offer as a teacher, but
questioning our practices,right? Questioning, am I
instructing this way? Becausethis is the way that I am taught
is what I'm doing right nowreally, in the best interest of

(01:08:56):
the student? Am? Is my method ofinstruction or my way of
instructing? Is it allowing meto be present in the lesson
truly present? And reacting tothe information that the student
is providing me, right? Or am Ion this structured methodology,
this schedule of what we do thisset of exercises, and then we

(01:09:19):
move on to repertoire of I tellthem to support more, and then
they'll see them next week?
Right, you know, like, reallyquestioning? Am I staying in the
moment? am I allowing both thestudent in the eye, the space to
be creative artists? You know,and so I think that would be the
best advice that I can give isjust just to question and
requestion and and think aboutit and have conversations with

(01:09:42):
other people who are alsothinking about these things, or
possibly even people who aren'tthinking about these things and
just seeing what they have tosay and attend conferences like
ICPT I think that that was itwas a beautiful conference and
And I loved when I went I was Iwas nervous as my first was my

(01:10:03):
first time at an internationalconference and presenting at
one. And I was, I was nervousthat people were going to stand
up in Google when I startedtalking about student centred
learning. But I intended Iattended your presentation
beforehand, and I just sort ofbreathed the sigh of relief. I
was like, oh, there's, there'ssomebody out here who thinks the
way that I do this is wonderful.

(01:10:23):
And then I gave my presentation.
And there was lots of positivefeedback afterwards, and people
asking really wonderfulquestions. And then directly
following by David Cisco standsup and gives his presentation,
it was sort of like handing offthe baton in a really beautiful
way. And I think he did justsuch a dynamic job of continuing
to sort of preach the word ofstudent centred learning.

And you know, what's really wonderful
about what you've just said, isthat I come from the CCM world,
you come predominantly from theclassical world, and he's from
the music theatre world. Andhere we are from three different
worlds. And we're all talkingabout the same thing. So doesn't
matter what world you live in,it's still crucial to our

(01:11:12):
teaching that the studentscentric teaching applies. And so
what are you up to now, in termsof all of this?

Well, I'm finalising some edits on an
article for the Journal ofsinging, which will be about the
history of the master apprenticetradition. So it's very much
based on based on the researchthat we talked about today, in
the research that I presented aticbt. I also did a poster
presentation on this same topicat the National nats Conference

(01:11:45):
this past summer, as well. Andso that I'm excited to put that
article put the sort offinishing touches on that and
get it in publication. And thendown the road, I would love to
write a book about studentcentred learning in the voice
studio. And I think it's suchit's such an important idea for

(01:12:07):
us to really have a book onpedagogy of teaching, right? In
the voice studio, rather thanjust on sort of what we teach.
But how we can teach it, youknow, and so, the way I dream
about this book is I wouldstructure by talking about the
history first, right? And then Iwould structure the rest of the

(01:12:29):
book, like a voice lesson, Iwould talk about vocal leases
and the warm up portion of thevoice lesson and how that could
be student centred. And then Iwould talk about the repertoire
portion of the voice lesson andhow that can be student centred,
and the choosing of repertoire.
And then also a chapter on theassessment of vocal instruction
and how we can make thatformative process as well. And
then some final thoughts and aconclusion.

You've just given your book away. Well,
somebody else wants to write itfor you, it's your Well, look,
we're going to share links toyou, and especially your
website, because you have someof your presentations up there.
I did a stalk of your website,and there is a lot of

(01:13:14):
information there a lot ofuseful information, stuff that
we've been talking about in thisinterview. So if anyone wants to
find out more, they can reachout to you via the links that
we're sharing the show notes,they can go to your website, it
has been an absolute joyTrevor's it truly has. I'm so

(01:13:34):
glad that I met you at icbt.
See, that's what happens whenyou go to conferences and you
travel, you don't know the workthat's being done somewhere
else. And the value of thatwork?

Absolutely.
Here we are on opposite sides ofthe world. And it's just, it's
so wonderful to have made thatconnection in beautiful Austria,
and now to have been a guest onthis podcast was really, truly a
pleasure. And I thank you somuch for asking me to be here
today. No,

no, no.
Thank you. Thank you. All thebest to you in the future. And I
hope that we crossed paths atanother conference. Me too.
Absolutely. Do you have any inmind for next year?

I'm not sure right now. I actually I've been
presenting at a regionalconference in January, on
practical applications ofstudent centred learning in the
voice studio in Long Beach,California. But beyond that, I
don't have any specific plansright now. Okay,

well, look, take it easy, Travis,
thank you so much. And I lookforward to reading your article
when it is published and lookforward to hearing about the
book in the future but hopefullythat we will cross paths before
then.

Absolutely.
Thanks so much for listening.

Bye.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of a voice and
beyond. I hope you enjoyed it asnow is an important time for you
to invest in your own self care,personal growth and education.
Use every day as an opportunityto learn and to grow, so you can
show up feeling empowered andready to live your best life. If

(01:15:13):
you know someone who will alsobe inspired by this episode,
please be sure to copy and pastethe link and share it with them.
Or share it on social media anduse the hashtag a voice and
beyond. I promise you I amcommitted to bringing you more
inspiration and conversationsjust like this one every week.

(01:15:37):
And if you would like to help meplease rate and review this
podcast and cheer me on byclicking the subscribe button on
Apple podcast right now. I wouldalso love to know what it is
that you most enjoyed about thisepisode and what was your
biggest takeaway? Please takecare and I look forward to your

(01:15:59):
company next time on the nextepisode of a voice and beyond.

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