February 9, 2025 • 49 mins
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Join us on a journey of hope and reconciliation as we navigate the complex emotions following a tumultuous election season. With Dr. Andrea Sims and retired Pastor Dave Rhodes, we confront the challenges that politics have imposed on faith communities. Together, we unpack the critical need for justice, mercy, and faith to maintain respectful and constructive dialogues, even when disagreements arise. This episode is a heartfelt exploration of how individuals of faith can rise above the negativity and division that often surface in political discourse.
Our conversation delves into the divisiveness that has crept into faith communities, where political differences have fractured relationships and distanced us from shared values of charity and love. Through painful accounts of racism and threats faced by African-American students, we stress the urgency of empathy, forgiveness, and reconciliation within churches. With stories that highlight the disillusionment of some believers, we underscore the importance of self-reflection and repentance. This episode is a call to action for believers to align their actions with the teachings of servanthood over power, ensuring that faith communities authentically reflect their values.
We emphasize the power of love and words in nurturing unity and hope. We encourage listeners to engage in personal journeys confronting uncomfortable truths, including racism and historical biases. With hope anchored in God's unchanging love, we invite listeners to find strength and solace in becoming students of God's Word demonstrating love for our neighbors in these challenging times.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Andre Sims (00:00):
Some, of course, losing friendships or
opportunities to take advantageof internships because they
didn't complete said program.
So it is a sad reality of someof the conversations we need to
have for hope in the midst ofwhat these people have, and
especially in the community offaith right.
Grantley Martelly (00:20):
T hat's correct.
W e've got to have thesediscussion s and we hear this
all the time.
People say you know, People sayyou know, people will write
things that they won't say toyour face.
Sometimes people feelemboldened with a text message
or with an Instagram post orwith a Facebook post.
They put stuff up there, youknow, and and it's just
unbelievable the things thatpeople have done.
(00:48):
So, welcome back to Above theNoise, and today my guests are
Dr Andrea Sims and Pastor DaveRhodes, and we're going to talk
about post-election hope, and Iknow to some of you that sounds
like oxymoron, but when we ended, we hope that you will come
around to agree with us thatthere is hope even in times when
(01:11):
it may seem hopeless.
We just came through a reallytough election season and for
some, people are celebrating,some people are scared, some
people are apathetic, somepeople are celebrating and some
people have said this isprobably the most important
(01:33):
election of our lifetime.
I'm not sure if I agree withthat, because I'm sure in every
election somebody has said it'sthe most important election of
our lifetime.
You know, I can think aboutmaybe World War II or the
Vietnam or the Cuban MissileCrisis.
I'm sure people looked at thatand said this is the most
important election of ourlifetime.
(01:54):
But it is important.
Every election is importantbecause major decisions are
being made and there's alwaysstuff that has long-term
repercussions.
This podcast is about faith,race and reconciliation, and
we're talking to people of faith.
We're talking to all people, butparticularly people of faith,
and I believe it's important forhow people of faith show up and
(02:16):
in my opinion, I would say thatin this last election, some of
our brothers and sisters didn'tshow up, at least in the more
stellar ways, with distinction.
I remember some of the thingsthat even came across my desk
and my phone and my computerthat I had to block because some
of them were just sounbelievably ungodly in my
(02:38):
opinion.
And it reminded me of a passagein the book of Matthew where
Jesus is talking to the scribesand Pharisees and he says You've
chosen the mint and the aniseand the cumin and you forgot the
higher things of the law, whichare justice, faith and mercy.
And I think if we look back, wecan look back on this election
and we can see some places wherejustice, faith and mercy took a
(03:01):
backseat to other things.
So today, my two esteemedgentlemen are going to help us
with this discussion.
Dr Andrea Sims is a pastor, apsychologist, a counselor, and
now he has a new title ofteaching pastor.
So he is moving on.
Dr. Andre Sims (03:18):
Praise God.
Grantley Martelly (03:19):
Yes, after a few years, and we've also worked
on a number of differentprojects together, and last year
he introduced me to the newministry that I didn't even know
existed was a ministry to thestable hands and stall guys who
take care of the racetrack.
Absolutely, it's a very, verygreat ministry.
(03:40):
We like it and really greatpeople, and I look forward to
doing it again this year withyou.
Pastor Dave Rhodes is a retiredminister.
After 40 years in the ministry,he took some retirement and
decided to come to our churchand then within six months we
had him assigned a temporaryassignment.
So we are hoping that thattemporary assignment ends pretty
(04:04):
soon and you can get back tobeing a retired pastor.
So we want to discuss some ofthe aspects of the election and
our goal is to end on hope.
So let's begin by Dave.
I'll ask you what are yourfirst impressions of the
election, what are some of yourobservations and things you
would like to talk about?
Pastor David Rodes (04:22):
Well, I think that hope is seen against
the backdrop of despair, rightor?
Grantley Martelly (04:29):
hopelessness.
Pastor David Rodes (04:30):
And I think that's really what we have here.
We have a lot of divisivenessand where the political
conversations actually dividedfamilies and friends, drove
wedges between people who hadbeen longtime friends.
I know that as a pastor.
(04:52):
We just had people disappearfrom conversation and when you
dug down into it you realizethat it was kind of an
accumulation over several years,since COVID actually, where
there was this permission sortof given that even Christians
took permission to kind of otherpeople and not have to humanize
(05:19):
them or know them by name ornurture the relationships,
because the opinion we heldbecame more important than, like
, the faith that we possessed incommon.
Yeah, so it just kind of.
I mean, that's one thing thatjust struck me People couldn't
seem to talk together fromopposing sides and maintain
(05:43):
their sense of civility, or Imean in the Christian sense,
their sense of charity and lovefor one another, Love for one
another yeah, that's goodPeople become so ingrained in
their position that pretty soonI think I said this on one of my
previous episodes we begin todefend things that we would not
normally defend, because we findourselves so far down the road.
Grantley Martelly (06:07):
Now we feel as though we've got to defend it
, or we're embarrassed to pullback and say I made a mistake,
or we have groupthink and wedon't want to mess up with a
group.
You know things like that,pastor Andre.
What are some of your initialimpressions?
Dr. Andre Sims (06:22):
Yeah, I think we've already hit on the fact
that we sit across from eachother and next to each other in
the pews or in the seats onSunday morning.
We have relationships, and thenyou read someone's post and you
go wait, that's the person thatI've been fellowshipping with
for the last four years.
That's what you think about,and so that part was challenging
(06:45):
, I think.
The need to be merciful, theneed to forgive, the need to
have dialogue with each other sothat we can rekindle and
restore and reconcile and, ifnecessary, repent and reconcile
(07:07):
and, if necessary, repent.
So I guess I just was reallychallenged by some of the things
that occurred that no one couldhave actually totally
anticipated, such as within 48hours of the results of the
election.
You know, within 48 hours of theresults of the election, you
had college students,specifically African-American
(07:29):
students, being targeted byemboldened racists with threats
of slavery if you can actuallybelieve that in the 21st century
and receiving emails, personalemails, by name.
So it wasn't this generic blockemail.
It was to, you know, david R orto Grantley M, and you know I
(07:54):
just pulled it up on my phone soI could just quote it.
This was on CBS Morning News.
This email said greetings andit has the student's first name
and last initial.
You have been selected to pickcotton at the nearest plantation
.
Be ready at 12 pm sharp withyour belongings.
Our executive slaves will comeget you in a brown van.
(08:19):
Be prepared to be stripped,searched Once you enter the
plantation.
You are in plantation group S.
That almost sounds likesomebody made that up.
Grantley Martelly (08:32):
Yeah.
Dr. Andre Sims (08:33):
That doesn't sound real, but that is an
outcome post-election.
People are feeling bold and tosay things that, yes, hitherto
before would not have been said,and it's not thatened to say
things that, yes, the two beforewould not been, and it's not
that they didn't believe it orfeel it before, but
post-election, they feel theliberty to now spread whatever
(08:57):
they were feeling, regardless ofwhat it may or may not do in
the lives of others, to theextent that you have college
students, as we sit here rightnow, december the 16th, who are
sitting at home either doingclasses online or not doing
school at all, because theirparents, out of the fear of
these threats, didn't know howviable or credible they were, so
(09:21):
they withdrew their studentsfrom school, some losing
scholarships, some, of course,losing friendships or
opportunities to take advantageof internships because they
didn't complete said program.
So it is a sad reality of someof the conversations we need to
have for hope in the midst ofwhat, of what these people have,
(09:45):
what these individuals have hadto live.
Grantley Martelly (09:50):
And especially in the community of
faith.
Right, that's correct, we'vegot to have these discussions
and it seems like people youknow and we hear this all the
time People say you know, peoplewill write things that they
won't say to your faith.
Sometimes People feelemboldened with a text message
or with an Instagram post orwith a Facebook post.
(10:11):
They put stuff up there.
You know, and it's justunbelievable, the things that
people have done and are doing,because you know we're still
coming up to inauguration there,so people are still in the
celebration more that we won andyou lost and we're going to
make you feel as though you lost.
(10:31):
So you think about those thingsbeing written and sent to
people.
Dr. Andre Sims (10:39):
Yes, yes, I believe that we were having a
discussion a bit about kind ofwhat foundation needs to be laid
to have hope, which we will,but just kind of your initial
commentary about our need torepent as believers, just kind
(11:11):
of because of our faith, becauseof our personal relationship
with Christ, because of thisambassador mantle that we're
supposed to be carrying.
You even related a story ofsomeone choosing to walk away
from the opportunity to be inthe family of God because of the
behavior of some believers.
Pastor David Rodes (11:34):
Yeah, I think sometimes we think that
nobody is watching except ourgroup, our people, that we think
we should be like, loyal toLike.
So if you, you can't afford todisagree politically because
that's viewed as betrayal Right,and sometimes we forget that
we're living before a watchingworld, like in a hungry world,
(11:59):
and I just know that.
I worked a long time with thisperson who was a not believer.
She was in education, she had areal sense of justice and
things like that, like a lot oftimes good-hearted people do so
(12:19):
finally she really got so hungryfor Jesus that she started
actually coming to ask morequestions and coming to church.
But when she saw some of theposts, social media posts,
people who went to the churchshe was now attending and she
thought I cannot be a part of it.
(12:41):
I don't even want to be a partof that right, because how can
you talk about Jesus and Jesusand live so contrary to what
you're proclaiming right?
And so she stopped and that wasa tremendous grief.
(13:01):
And I think sometimes what'shappened is that sometimes we
forgot, we have forgotten whatthe mission is, that we do have
a mission of being good newspeople to our world and instead
we get hunkered down in aparticular opinion or something
that we believe will save ourpiece of the pie going forward
(13:27):
and we forget that we're calledreally to be servants.
And maybe that's one of thethings that's been forgotten is
that in all of this it's beenkind of a lot about power and
how can I have religious powerso we can get done what we want
to get done, rather thanrealizing that, as one person
(13:49):
put it, when Christianity hasassumed to a position of power,
things have usually not gonevery well now sometimes we
forget that.
Grantley Martelly (13:58):
you know, our , our call is not to power, our
call is to servanthood.
But one of the things that keepcoming up to me too is, you
know that I've noticed in in thechurch and in religious circles
is people don't recognize somepeople don't recognize what is
(14:19):
biblical and what is traditionaland what is cultural and what
maybe even the way they werebrought up and they may be in
church their whole lives or theymay be coming to church or
whatever, and you see, some ofthe things that they do and it's
like that's not biblical,that's cultural.
A lot of the things that Ibelieve we saw in the election,
(14:42):
whether it was for power orwhether it was for whatever the
position was, you know, abortionor immigrant rights or all
these things lots of those aretraditional and cultural,
because what the Bible saysabout immigrants and orphans and
widows is pretty clear right,we have a mandate to take care
(15:02):
of the widow, the immigrant andthe orphan right.
He didn't say we consult withthe Supreme Court or the
Congress on what we do.
He said that is what we do,that is what you're supposed to
do.
But then you get in thiscultural thing about what about
this and what about that, andyou know the way that I see it.
(15:23):
You know I tell people I, as arepresentative of the kingdom of
God, when God brings somebodyinto my life, into my circle, is
not to ask them what theirstatus is.
He didn't bring them to me toask them what their status was.
He brought them to me for ahigher purpose of what they do
and what they don't do.
(15:44):
And I think sometimes we getcaught up in these things.
You think about things likereligious nationalism.
I call it religious nationalismjust because it's not just
Christians.
Nearly every religion hasreligious nationalism, right.
And how we want to structurethe government or structure the
(16:05):
society to support our religionand our faith, right.
And that's how we get into thispower struggle.
Who has the most power tochange the way things are?
Whether we call it religiousnationalism or Sharia law or
whatever, it's the same thing of.
(16:26):
If I can get me and my group inpower, then we can force
everybody around us to becomelike us.
Dr. Andre Sims (16:36):
Yeah, well, it's kind of like finances, right,
like your job is not your source, right, my job is not my source
.
God is my source.
Right, the government is not mysource for peace.
Correct, god is my source.
That doesn't mean I don'tadvocate for righteous people in
(16:57):
government.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm just saying that thenationalist, or the nationalism,
tends to lean beyond the scopeof what the scripture would
advocate for when it comes totrying to find an answer to
whatever the societal ill mightbe.
(17:19):
And when you mentioned cultural,you know we have this idea of
these colloquial phrases likethe ends justify the means.
But as a believer, the end hasto be as moral and biblical as
the end.
I don't get to use a wicked orungodly means to get to the end.
(17:41):
It all has to be on the table,in the light, yeah, god honoring
.
It can't be under the table orin the dark or contrary to
Scripture as opposed tocongruent with scripture, and
then say, okay, well, we did it,we landed where we wanted to
land.
Now, god was dishonored andgrieved the whole time, but we
(18:03):
landed.
Grantley Martelly (18:04):
But I would say, andre even take that
further that for the believer,for the person of faith, the
means is more important than theends.
Okay, the means carries a lotlonger message, because people
will watch how we act, watchwhat we do.
How did you get there?
We may get there and say, yeah,but people are remembering
(18:24):
everything that happened alongthe way, right, what we did here
, what we did there, and wecould cause more harm in the way
we got there than in what weaccomplished.
It suggests that we can't trustGod to do it.
Dr. Andre Sims (18:40):
We have to manipulate it, because God alone
will not, cannot, hasn't,whatever the case might be.
Pastor David Rodes (18:51):
Yeah, and you end up saying then that
somehow I can keep my heartright and maybe a means that is
not loving and reach an end thatI really want.
We say that could be to theglory of God.
But again, like if we grievethe Holy Spirit getting there,
then by the time we get there wewon't know what to do with that
(19:13):
power because it will beself-serving right.
And it will exclude otherpeople and it will always
justify I'll always use it tojustify my meat.
Dr. Andre Sims (19:25):
N ot y'all and them, but as believers and I'm
in the family of God as abeliever, I'm quick to justify,
rationalize my own sin.
I'm quick to excuse what I'vedone, because I don't want to
deal with the conviction and thereality of having failed God
yet again, in whatever area itis that I have fallen short in.
(19:49):
So I understand why it happens.
I think our conversation is oneof helping us to own the fact
that the next step, after I cometo that realization, is to
repent of what it is that theHoly Spirit has convicted me of
(20:09):
and to potentially help with therestoration of those who
suffered as a result of my sinchoices.
You know I'm a big advocate forlearning.
What I don't like is when Imake choices that cause me to
learn at other people's expense.
Grantley Martelly (20:31):
Yeah.
Pastor David Rodes (20:33):
So any other observations?
Yeah, I just think that one ofthe things that's contributed to
the chaos is that we've lostour appreciation for the value
of words.
Words matter, right, what issaid, how it is said.
So there's a lot of hatefulrhetoric and and then it's kind
of like it's a feeding frenzy,right, and it just increases
(20:56):
more and more and it can betoward.
It can be toward a people group, I mean, even if it's toward a,
a group of people that I maynot agree with.
Still, the words matter, rightme.
Disagreeing with them does notgive me a license to dehumanize
that that's good.
We talked, I mean in experienceswe've had in the past.
(21:17):
I've just come up.
This phrase has meant a lot tome, and that is that issues have
labels but people have names,and so but I can address issues
and be as mean as I want to be,but I forget.
On the other side of that arepeople who have names that are
actually created in the image ofGod, who are as equally loved
by God as I am, and so I justthink we've just somehow we've
(21:43):
just forgotten the power ofwords and man.
The scriptures are filled withthat, and the ultimate word
spoken to us has been the wordfrom God's mouth, jesus himself
right, that's good.
Dr. Andre Sims (21:54):
Yeah, the overflow of the heart, the mouth
speaks, and so it's exposing,it's revealing what I choose to
say.
I have a friend that owns acompany and one of her most
common phrases amongst heremployees is that everything is
evidence.
Everything is evidence amongstour employees is that everything
(22:14):
is evidence and everything isevidence.
And so the way that I speak toyou, if I don't Ephesians four,
15, choose to speak to you inlove, then I've failed at the
task.
Sometimes people, because it'sthe truth, they just believe it
can come out any kind of waybecause whatever is being
(22:36):
communicated is true.
But I still have thisobligation to speak the truth in
love.
Grantley Martelly (22:44):
That's what Right.
Dr. Andre Sims (22:46):
You can't drop the phrase right, Right.
Grantley Martelly (22:48):
You know and I talk about this all the time
right, love our neighbor asourself.
And too many times we just saylove our neighbor and we forget
that as ourselves.
Yes, right, and if you do that,you can love or your neighbor
and still wish them harm orstill speak evil of them or
(23:09):
still do all of these thingsBecause again they just I'm just
loving my neighbor, right, andI can love them.
You know, yeah, it's true, youknow it's true.
But if you put as yourself onthe end, then it says everything
I want for myself, I want formy neighbor.
If I don't want to be treatedthat way, then my neighbor
(23:29):
shouldn't be treated that way.
That's good.
If I don't want that kind ofschool for my kids, then I
shouldn't want it for mychildren.
If I don't want people to livein, if I don't want to live in
fear, then I shouldn't want myneighbors to live in fear.
When you put the as yourself onthe end, it changes how we
approach the person.
Pastor David Rodes (23:50):
So true, it becomes personal, it becomes
personal.
It actually has to becomepersonal, it has to become
personal right and that's a bigcaveat in the whole thing, right
?
Grantley Martelly (24:02):
Yeah, and that's one of the things that I
saw was missing at this electionthe as yourself part.
There was a lot of neighborstuff, some good and not so good
, but there was not, in my, myopinion, and it's not a lot of
people right.
So a lot, of, a lot of peopledid the right thing, a lot of
people were kind and tried to,but there was the, the, the
(24:24):
atmosphere that the tension ofthe election to me was not love
your neighbor as yourself and,and we're talking about like
within the church, Like ifwithin the church there had been
this love your neighbor asyourself, which is like this
expression of how we return loveto God right Then in the church
(24:47):
.
Pastor David Rodes (24:47):
if there had been that, then the church
could have been a witness to theworld as to the power of the
love of Christ.
That's good.
Grantley Martelly (25:01):
I want to touch on this area of racism a
little bit more before we turnthe corner, because I think we
would all agree that the churchhas not dealt with the issue of
racism very well.
I definitely would agree withthat, Whether it's in practice
or in conversation, and the factthat we can't even have
(25:23):
conversations in churches aboutthis right says a lot about why
we haven't dealt with it.
And one of my wishes will bethat someday we could get to the
point to where we can haveconversations about these things
, about racism, about how wetreat each other in a way that
(25:45):
is constructive, so that we canactually deal with it.
And one of the things I learnedand I learned this in our family
reunions when we had a familyreunion about looking back at
how we were raised and ourpsychology and the things that
were endemic in our family, andone of the things I came out of
that with we can talk about ourancestors and our foreparents
(26:11):
and how they lived and thethings they did, without being
disrespectful of them, if you'rewilling to have the
conversation and if youunderstand that they were acting
within the knowledge that theyhad at that time.
And I tell people all the time Idon't think the framers would
be impressed with us walkingaround trying to defend their
(26:33):
decisions like we are.
They would be like we just madethe decisions we had to make at
the time we were in the room,we were in the situation.
We may disagree with them,whether they were slave owners
or whatever, but I think theywould say you know, we made the
decisions we had to make, so whyare you trying to defend it and
try to pretend that we wereperfect?
We never said we were perfect.
We wanted to create a perfectunion, but we never said we were
(26:56):
perfect.
But we can't even have thatconversation.
Pastor David Rodes (27:00):
That's true.
I mean it's really, I mean it'sdifficult because I think
there's so much.
There's such a knowledge gap,right, and an experience gap
many times.
So when George Floyd wasmurdered, I made a decision
(27:22):
personally at that time to say Iknow how things go.
Something happens and thenyou're all committed to trying
to figure it out for a fewmonths and then everybody goes
back to work right, and thenyou're all committed to trying
to figure it out for a fewmonths and then everybody goes
back to work right and then youforget it and I just decided
that that wasn't going to happenfor me.
And so I found ways to starttrying to really learn and
(27:44):
understand some of this.
And I'll just say that a lot oftimes, if you look from my
experience, my white perspective, so I took a trip to East Texas
where a belovedgreat-great-great-grandfather
who came over and he settledthere and he established that
(28:06):
county in East Texas, in EastTexas.
And I got there and I learnedhe was a slave owner and then
child slavery, right.
And so we went to the libraryand we checked out the records
and what he owned and listedunder what he owned was his
(28:27):
house and his slaves.
He owned them, and so now allreports written reports was that
he was like a godly man, thathe treated his slaves well, that
he even had them buried withhim, but that did not excuse the
whole system.
And so my brother and I, we tookthis trip and so we stood on
(28:53):
that land and we just said,Jesus, would you please forgive
us?
And we made a repentance right,because I'm of the view that in
doing that it not only doessomething in our hearts but also
does something in the spiritualrealm that can affect something
(29:15):
in on the spirit, on thephysical realm, right On how we
live out.
And so I, I just like so it'shard to talk about a lot of
times because you don't want tolike diminish people Sure, you
don't want to, you know, and atthe same time I mean you want to
defend their intentions.
A lot of times I've had goodintentions, but it was just good
(29:38):
intentions about the thingsthat were not, they're not.
Dr. Andre Sims (29:41):
Yeah, we don't always receive correction well
like that.
We tend to be defensive.
But Solomon said, proverbs 27,5, open rebuke is better than
hidden love.
There's something to be saidfor someone who loves you enough
to tell you what.
(30:02):
Thus saith the Lord.
Again, that doesn't give themthe right to be ugly or hurtful,
but to say what the truth isand allow, within the family of
God, allow the Holy Spirit totake that truth and for him to
minister to the person based onpotentially something they
didn't even know.
(30:22):
And so when James mentions theroyal law, james chapter 2, and
he's talking about he liststhese sins, explaining that if
you fall short in one part ofthe law, you're guilty of
breaking all of the law.
I think that again, as believerswe kind of got that old country
buffet golden corral mentality.
(30:43):
We're cherry picking differentportions of scripture to stand
on and believe in and represent.
But actually we're supposed tobelieve in the whole counsel of
God, not just the parts that fitwell with my history, of my own
culture or family or heritageor right.
(31:04):
I got to own the fact thatbecause we're all fallen, I've
got fallen people in my familytree who made fallen choices
that potentially are impactingme and or the culture today, and
I'm no exception.
I'm not the guy that has it'mnot properly representing as a
(31:41):
son of God, and so this ideathat I can focus on an issue
I'll just take abortion as anissue and I can make this
grandiose thing which I knowfrom people who are more
educated than me about it likegranted, even what people think
they know about the issue isn't100% accurate.
Grantley Martelly (32:03):
It's not what was discussed, right.
Dr. Andre Sims (32:06):
But let's just assume that I've landed in the
right place biblically.
I've looked at Psalm 139 and Ihave some understanding about
when birth begins, at conceptionand so on and so forth.
But then when somebody brings upthat, whatever the movement is
maybe not a statement, maybe nota sentence, maybe not a quote
(32:28):
of a phrase, but the movement ofthe, whatever the political
party, the, whatever thepolitical party is, or whatever
the direction is politically,the movement is causing or
creating or opening the door foremboldened racism or sin, I'm
supposed to take a step backfrom whatever that is,
recognizing that all sin isequal, and say, well, I don't
(32:51):
know that I could advocate forsaid entity or said person or
said organization or said,because, as a believer, my goal
is to be an ambassador of Christ, not an ambassador of, and then
you can fill in the blank andthat's whom I'm called to
represent, as opposed to whatI'm choosing to do with my
(33:14):
liberty and freedom in thiscountry.
So I just think that having theability to have that kind of
conversation, where my desire isto be one with Dave, not to be
right in my argument with Dave,Right, yeah, To have a
discussion Right and to have adiscussion right.
Grantley Martelly (33:33):
And, yeah, I'll just say we're not called
to be issue believers.
We're not called to be peopleof issue.
We're called to berepresentative of the entire
gospel, of the entirety of thegospel, right, amen.
We're not given the privilegeof cherry picking Even the
(33:54):
things that we're strugglingwith.
We're not given the, in myopinion, the privilege to cherry
pick that and say well, I'mgoing to stand with all the
Bible, but this issue that Ihave, I'm just going to put that
aside.
Dr. Andre Sims (34:10):
And I'm going to go on which is the one the Holy
Spirit has tried to get.
Yeah, the one he's trying toget, he's sending the Grandleys
and the Daves to me to say Iknow you're working on these
eight, but this one over here Itold you about three years ago,
that's the one I'm trying to get.
That's the one.
Grantley Martelly (34:24):
I'm trying to get right and I think what
we've developed nowadays is, insome places, issue believers.
Right, I believe because ofthis issue or that issue or that
issue, I'm supporting this orwhatever.
I'm trying to help people seethe totality of the gospel, the
totality of the message and like, even though the person you're
(34:45):
dealing with may not be right ineverywhere, they're still
valuable in the sight of God.
Amen, right, it's like theperson who comes to Christ.
They're coming to Christbecause they're not perfect,
right, and sometimes I'm jokingaround that.
Sometimes we want people to besanctified before they come to
God.
For sure you know that wouldhelp.
Pastor David Rodes (35:05):
That would be very helpful.
That would be, you know.
Grantley Martelly (35:09):
So, and I think some I brought that up
because sometimes it translatesinto I think it translates into
life, right, Right, I would loveyou as my neighbor, as myself,
if you just did this, this andthis first Right, you know.
Dave's got to do this, this andthis first, and then I'm going
to put the eyes of yourself onhim, but until then he's just a
(35:30):
neighbor.
Yeah, I don't know if this ismaking sense or not, but it's
like oh, we're tracking with you.
Dr. Andre Sims (35:35):
We're tracking with you.
We're tracking Micah 7-7, but,as for me, I watch in hope for
the Lord.
I wait for God.
My Savior, my God will hear me.
In the midst of all the chaosand all the frustration and
everything that we talked aboutso far.
There is hope in the God ofhope.
(35:56):
We do have his ear 24 hours aday, seven days a week.
He doesn't sleep, he doesn'tslumber.
He knows Grant Lee's pain.
He knows Dave's frustration.
He knows Andre's frustration.
He knows Andre's disappointmentand he's listening to whatever
the petitions are, whatever itis that we're asking of him, and
(36:21):
his desire is that we wouldplace our hope by faith, even
though the circumstance may lookhopeless.
Grantley Martelly (36:32):
He desires that we place our so you turned
a corner for us there.
I did.
Thank you for doing that.
Dr. Andre Sims (36:37):
I knew our time was.
That was a good turn.
Thank you for doing that.
Grantley Martelly (36:40):
You know we want to end on hope and that's a
great, great transition there.
What do you see as the hope forus?
Pastor David Rodes (36:49):
Well, I think we're talking about love
right.
So you've been talking aboutlove your neighbor as yourself.
The first part is love God, butthat is a response to God's
love for us, and I think wherewe've gotten is because we have
become even professing believers, have become alienated from the
(37:10):
love of God.
Believers have become alienatedfrom the love of God.
If we would once again sit inthe presence of the God who
loves us extravagantly,relentlessly, then something
would begin to happen within theheart, because I just think
that the love of God is thatstrong that may then release us
(37:31):
to actually and I owe my brotherStan you know he's been doing
some reflecting on this, but youknow, jesus did have a pool.
He put everybody in, you know,and that pool was neighbor.
So love your neighbor asyourself.
(37:51):
And so if, if out of the loveof God I mean not believed in
the love of God but experiencethe love, then that I think that
can begin to open a door to toreally love the person next to
me who doesn't look like me,doesn't agree with me, isn't on
the same wavelength I am, is notin my group, not in my club,
(38:15):
does or doesn't go to my church,but just recognize that love is
to flow toward that neighbor.
Grantley Martelly (38:20):
Or they may not go to no church.
That's right.
Pastor David Rodes (38:23):
They may not want anything to do with God.
Yeah, we're still called tolove them.
Grantley Martelly (38:29):
We are man.
So this thing of hope, right, Ithink about this.
And how do we help people tosee that, even though we live in
a country and this podcast islistened to all over the world?
I am amazed at how, when I lookat the statistics, I don't even
(38:50):
know how people are picking itup.
right, but every country has aconstitution, every country has
laws and stuff.
And how do we help people tosee that our hope is not in our
constitution or our SupremeCourt or our president or our
Senate, but our hope has to bein something that is unshakable
(39:12):
and unmovable and doesn't swayover the tides or the political
climate of which party is inpower, because those things will
change.
Dr. Andre Sims (39:22):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean, we serve a Godthat's immutable, right,
Unchanging.
Jesus is the same Hebrews 13, 8, yesterday, today and forever.
And so, even though I'm crazyabout people that I'm close to
and I got some people, by thegrace of God, that are crazy
about me but as I was on thisbrother's phone yesterday on my
(39:43):
way to church, I said, man, youhave affirmed me and I'm
encouraged, but I have to warnyou, I'm broken, Like.
I appreciate you saying thisand that about me, but my hope
and I want your hope to be inthe one who is immutable.
I want your hope to be in theGod of hope.
(40:05):
Romans, I looked this up.
Romans 15, 13.
Romans, I looked this up.
Romans 15, 13,.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace as you
trust in him, so that you mayoverflow with hope by the power
of the Holy Spirit.
That's where our hope is rooted.
Pastor David Rodes (40:22):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's.
The hope is in him right.
Dr. Andre Sims (40:28):
Amen.
Pastor David Rodes (40:29):
I want to pick up on the word you said.
We're broken and I think forthe restoration of hope and to
live it, there has to be likethis different posture I said on
one occasion talking to a groupabout how to love people of the
LGBTQ community.
(40:49):
I was just talking about theissue of, you know, with social
media and the bad behavior ofsome Christians, we've dug
ourselves into a deep hole,right For sure.
Dr. Andre Sims (41:01):
bad behavior of some Christians.
Pastor David Rodes (41:02):
We've dug ourselves into a deep hole,
right For sure and so, but thethought is, the only way out of
the hole is to get low enough,like you have to actually have
to become people who are willingto say, hey, I'm broken.
It's the grace of God thatmeets me where I am.
It's the grace of God that canmeet you where you are.
(41:24):
And this is our hope.
It's his grace, right.
It's his powerful love, that is, I don't think he looks past
our stuff.
I think he looks at it and getson our side in it and immerses
himself in the mess of it, right?
And I think our hope is goingto be found that, because it's
not going to be like a wishfulthinking sort of thing, it's
(41:44):
just actually going to be likehands and feet of.
Jesus with people who are alsodesiring and needing the mercies
of God, like we are.
Grantley Martelly (41:55):
And we extend that hope to people by
extending grace and mercy.
Dr. Andre Sims (42:00):
For sure.
Grantley Martelly (42:00):
Giving them the ability to, as we realize we
are broken, that they're brokentoo.
And if we're willing to giveourselves room to be broken, we
got to give other people room tobe broken.
And then we got to trust in theGod that we say is immutable
and unshakable.
Just as he's working with us,he can work with them.
(42:21):
Amen.
Pastor David Rodes (42:22):
To bring them along.
Grantley Martelly (42:24):
Amen, you know we may be on different
parts of the journey, but if wegive them some grace and some
empathy and some space and saywe may not agree right now or,
you know, whatever you want todo lifestyle, racism, politics,
this thing or the next thing butif we give it to God, he can
(42:46):
bring us together on thisjourney and we can walk together
and maybe, while you'restruggling with your struggle
and I'm struggling with mine, wecan help each other along and
we don't shun, Like I thinkwe've learned in recent years
how to shun people right and so,instead of shunning, we are
(43:06):
actually to be hospitable yeahwe're actually to be gracious,
and not only when we're aroundthem, but but how we talk about
them yeah, and and a lot oftimes when we shun people, we
also shun in issues.
We're also shunning issues.
So I think that's one of thereasons why we don't talk about
(43:26):
some of these issues.
Dr. Andre Sims (43:29):
And then we kind of have this unfortunate
challenge of, as they say,throwing the baby out with the
bathwater.
I really, really don't want tooffend Dave because we're
friends but we have differentethnicities, and since I don't
want to offend him or saysomething that steps on his toes
, unintentionally even, I'm justnot having the conversation.
(43:50):
I just much rather let's justtalk about the Seahawks and the
need to beat the Rams this weekand that be our engagement Very
surface.
And that be our engagement Verysurface, non-invasive, because I
don't want to misstep, but outof the fear of misstepping, I'm
(44:10):
closing the door on someopportunity to connect and
engage in a way that'sministering, that's mutually
beneficial.
Grantley Martelly (44:19):
But it's mutually beneficial to us.
But it also demonstrates toother people who may come along.
Us having that discussion maybe an open door to other people
to come along who are strugglingas well, because it's not
always about us, right it'sabout the kingdom Are you sure?
Dr. Andre Sims (44:41):
It could be a little radical right here.
Pastor David Rodes (44:42):
It's about the kingdom, are you sure?
Are you sure it could be alittle radical right?
Grantley Martelly (44:45):
here it's about the kingdom right, amen.
Bringing everybody along in thekingdom and getting back to
this racism and these topics wedon't want to talk about until
we start talking about thesethings.
I think there's a lot ofopportunity in talking about
these things because I think wemay be surprised how many people
are willing to have theconversation and people who are
(45:05):
willing to come on board, whomay right now be like your
friend, saying I can't do thatanymore because of that.
We start having theseconversations.
Pastor David Rodes (45:12):
maybe she will come back, yeah because
somebody's willing to talk aboutit.
I think the matter too, just tosay about hope is I think hope
has to like, it has to show up.
Like hope has to, it's not justa word, it has to show up.
I was reading in light of thefears that a lot of immigrants
are facing these days.
(45:33):
I was taken to Hebrews 10.32.
Remember those earlier days,after you had received the light
, when you endured a greatconflict full of suffering.
Sometimes you were publiclyexposed to insult and
persecution.
At other times you stood sideby side with those who were so
treated.
So the issue was that sometimesyou went through it, but
(45:55):
sometimes, because of this hoperight, you stand side by side,
stand by side with.
God and I think that our hope islike.
So.
Many people can look at thewhole Christian hope and say,
well, that's just like wishfulthinking.
Or people may say, well, I hopeit all turns out right.
Well, the hope is reallygrounded in the compassion and
(46:17):
the love that is demonstrated.
Dr. Andre Sims (46:19):
Yeah, and I'd love to pick up on that word
demonstrated right.
So repentance is something youdo, right.
It's a Matthew three eightproduce fruit in keeping with
repentance.
There's something noticeableabout what you're going to do,
different.
You've got a change of mind anda change of heart and you're no
longer walking this direction.
(46:40):
You have this 180 degree, itdemonstrated, there's a turn and
you're now marching to a newdrum and walking in a new light,
and my ability to see thatgives me hope, even if I don't
even understand what what thatis exactly.
But I do recognize theencouragement I'm gaining from
(47:04):
watching this person, or thatperson, this entity, that group
Within the body.
Pastor David Rodes (47:11):
I see us moving towards the will of God,
according to the Word of God,and that helps me have hope and
I think if we do it, then whatyou're saying and we demonstrate
it and it's accompanied withjoy, like one of the things I
noticed through all of this longelection year and before is how
(47:34):
many people of faith didn'tdemonstrate any joy right the
fear had gripped andhopelessness was very much there
, or it was placed just in a man.
Grantley Martelly (47:48):
Yeah, so fear does not exist with hope.
They can't coexist together.
So if we are fearful, it'sgoing to be hard to be hopeful.
Well, we want to wrap this upby just saying you know, our
hope as people of faith is notin our systems, not in our
(48:11):
country, not in all the thingsaround us, as good as they may
be, because we all benefit fromthat, but our hope is in a
higher calling in a solidfoundation in a rock that does
not move.
The old song said we have ananchor that keeps the soul
steadfast and sure as thebillows roll, and our hope is in
(48:33):
Jesus Christ.
And if we put our hope in JesusChrist, regardless of our
political position, regardlessof the social, economic,
political things going on aroundus, yes, we have to be engaged,
yes, we have to stay engaged.
Yes, we need to speak up forthose who can't speak up for
themselves.
Yes, we need to representjustice and peace and
(48:54):
righteousness.
But our hope is not in thosethings.
Our hope is in Jesus Christ.
And if you don't have that hopein Jesus Christ and you're
fearful about what's going on,then I would encourage you to
put your hope in Jesus Christ.
And if you don't know how to dothat, just send us an email at
abovedenoise24 at gmailcom andwe will get in touch with you
(49:17):
and we will help you answer thatquestion.
Thanks for watching.
Thanks for watching for sure.
Some, of course, losing friendships or
opportunities to take advantageof internships because they
didn't complete said program.
So it is a sad reality of someof the conversations we need to
have for hope in the midst ofwhat these people have, and
especially in the community offaith right.
Grantley Martelly (00:20):
T hat's correct.
W e've got to have thesediscussion s and we hear this
all the time.
People say you know, People sayyou know, people will write
things that they won't say toyour face.
Sometimes people feelemboldened with a text message
or with an Instagram post orwith a Facebook post.
They put stuff up there, youknow, and and it's just
unbelievable the things thatpeople have done.
(00:48):
So, welcome back to Above theNoise, and today my guests are
Dr Andrea Sims and Pastor DaveRhodes, and we're going to talk
about post-election hope, and Iknow to some of you that sounds
like oxymoron, but when we ended, we hope that you will come
around to agree with us thatthere is hope even in times when
(01:11):
it may seem hopeless.
We just came through a reallytough election season and for
some, people are celebrating,some people are scared, some
people are apathetic, somepeople are celebrating and some
people have said this isprobably the most important
(01:33):
election of our lifetime.
I'm not sure if I agree withthat, because I'm sure in every
election somebody has said it'sthe most important election of
our lifetime.
You know, I can think aboutmaybe World War II or the
Vietnam or the Cuban MissileCrisis.
I'm sure people looked at thatand said this is the most
important election of ourlifetime.
(01:54):
But it is important.
Every election is importantbecause major decisions are
being made and there's alwaysstuff that has long-term
repercussions.
This podcast is about faith,race and reconciliation, and
we're talking to people of faith.
We're talking to all people, butparticularly people of faith,
and I believe it's important forhow people of faith show up and
(02:16):
in my opinion, I would say thatin this last election, some of
our brothers and sisters didn'tshow up, at least in the more
stellar ways, with distinction.
I remember some of the thingsthat even came across my desk
and my phone and my computerthat I had to block because some
of them were just sounbelievably ungodly in my
(02:38):
opinion.
And it reminded me of a passagein the book of Matthew where
Jesus is talking to the scribesand Pharisees and he says You've
chosen the mint and the aniseand the cumin and you forgot the
higher things of the law, whichare justice, faith and mercy.
And I think if we look back, wecan look back on this election
and we can see some places wherejustice, faith and mercy took a
(03:01):
backseat to other things.
So today, my two esteemedgentlemen are going to help us
with this discussion.
Dr Andrea Sims is a pastor, apsychologist, a counselor, and
now he has a new title ofteaching pastor.
So he is moving on.
Dr. Andre Sims (03:18):
Praise God.
Grantley Martelly (03:19):
Yes, after a few years, and we've also worked
on a number of differentprojects together, and last year
he introduced me to the newministry that I didn't even know
existed was a ministry to thestable hands and stall guys who
take care of the racetrack.
Absolutely, it's a very, verygreat ministry.
(03:40):
We like it and really greatpeople, and I look forward to
doing it again this year withyou.
Pastor Dave Rhodes is a retiredminister.
After 40 years in the ministry,he took some retirement and
decided to come to our churchand then within six months we
had him assigned a temporaryassignment.
So we are hoping that thattemporary assignment ends pretty
(04:04):
soon and you can get back tobeing a retired pastor.
So we want to discuss some ofthe aspects of the election and
our goal is to end on hope.
So let's begin by Dave.
I'll ask you what are yourfirst impressions of the
election, what are some of yourobservations and things you
would like to talk about?
Pastor David Rodes (04:22):
Well, I think that hope is seen against
the backdrop of despair, rightor?
Grantley Martelly (04:29):
hopelessness.
Pastor David Rodes (04:30):
And I think that's really what we have here.
We have a lot of divisivenessand where the political
conversations actually dividedfamilies and friends, drove
wedges between people who hadbeen longtime friends.
I know that as a pastor.
(04:52):
We just had people disappearfrom conversation and when you
dug down into it you realizethat it was kind of an
accumulation over several years,since COVID actually, where
there was this permission sortof given that even Christians
took permission to kind of otherpeople and not have to humanize
(05:19):
them or know them by name ornurture the relationships,
because the opinion we heldbecame more important than, like
, the faith that we possessed incommon.
Yeah, so it just kind of.
I mean, that's one thing thatjust struck me People couldn't
seem to talk together fromopposing sides and maintain
(05:43):
their sense of civility, or Imean in the Christian sense,
their sense of charity and lovefor one another, Love for one
another yeah, that's goodPeople become so ingrained in
their position that pretty soonI think I said this on one of my
previous episodes we begin todefend things that we would not
normally defend, because we findourselves so far down the road.
Grantley Martelly (06:07):
Now we feel as though we've got to defend it
, or we're embarrassed to pullback and say I made a mistake,
or we have groupthink and wedon't want to mess up with a
group.
You know things like that,pastor Andre.
What are some of your initialimpressions?
Dr. Andre Sims (06:22):
Yeah, I think we've already hit on the fact
that we sit across from eachother and next to each other in
the pews or in the seats onSunday morning.
We have relationships, and thenyou read someone's post and you
go wait, that's the person thatI've been fellowshipping with
for the last four years.
That's what you think about,and so that part was challenging
(06:45):
, I think.
The need to be merciful, theneed to forgive, the need to
have dialogue with each other sothat we can rekindle and
restore and reconcile and, ifnecessary, repent and reconcile
(07:07):
and, if necessary, repent.
So I guess I just was reallychallenged by some of the things
that occurred that no one couldhave actually totally
anticipated, such as within 48hours of the results of the
election.
You know, within 48 hours of theresults of the election, you
had college students,specifically African-American
(07:29):
students, being targeted byemboldened racists with threats
of slavery if you can actuallybelieve that in the 21st century
and receiving emails, personalemails, by name.
So it wasn't this generic blockemail.
It was to, you know, david R orto Grantley M, and you know I
(07:54):
just pulled it up on my phone soI could just quote it.
This was on CBS Morning News.
This email said greetings andit has the student's first name
and last initial.
You have been selected to pickcotton at the nearest plantation
.
Be ready at 12 pm sharp withyour belongings.
Our executive slaves will comeget you in a brown van.
(08:19):
Be prepared to be stripped,searched Once you enter the
plantation.
You are in plantation group S.
That almost sounds likesomebody made that up.
Grantley Martelly (08:32):
Yeah.
Dr. Andre Sims (08:33):
That doesn't sound real, but that is an
outcome post-election.
People are feeling bold and tosay things that, yes, hitherto
before would not have been said,and it's not thatened to say
things that, yes, the two beforewould not been, and it's not
that they didn't believe it orfeel it before, but
post-election, they feel theliberty to now spread whatever
(08:57):
they were feeling, regardless ofwhat it may or may not do in
the lives of others, to theextent that you have college
students, as we sit here rightnow, december the 16th, who are
sitting at home either doingclasses online or not doing
school at all, because theirparents, out of the fear of
these threats, didn't know howviable or credible they were, so
(09:21):
they withdrew their studentsfrom school, some losing
scholarships, some, of course,losing friendships or
opportunities to take advantageof internships because they
didn't complete said program.
So it is a sad reality of someof the conversations we need to
have for hope in the midst ofwhat, of what these people have,
(09:45):
what these individuals have hadto live.
Grantley Martelly (09:50):
And especially in the community of
faith.
Right, that's correct, we'vegot to have these discussions
and it seems like people youknow and we hear this all the
time People say you know, peoplewill write things that they
won't say to your faith.
Sometimes People feelemboldened with a text message
or with an Instagram post orwith a Facebook post.
(10:11):
They put stuff up there.
You know, and it's justunbelievable, the things that
people have done and are doing,because you know we're still
coming up to inauguration there,so people are still in the
celebration more that we won andyou lost and we're going to
make you feel as though you lost.
(10:31):
So you think about those thingsbeing written and sent to
people.
Dr. Andre Sims (10:39):
Yes, yes, I believe that we were having a
discussion a bit about kind ofwhat foundation needs to be laid
to have hope, which we will,but just kind of your initial
commentary about our need torepent as believers, just kind
(11:11):
of because of our faith, becauseof our personal relationship
with Christ, because of thisambassador mantle that we're
supposed to be carrying.
You even related a story ofsomeone choosing to walk away
from the opportunity to be inthe family of God because of the
behavior of some believers.
Pastor David Rodes (11:34):
Yeah, I think sometimes we think that
nobody is watching except ourgroup, our people, that we think
we should be like, loyal toLike.
So if you, you can't afford todisagree politically because
that's viewed as betrayal Right,and sometimes we forget that
we're living before a watchingworld, like in a hungry world,
(11:59):
and I just know that.
I worked a long time with thisperson who was a not believer.
She was in education, she had areal sense of justice and
things like that, like a lot oftimes good-hearted people do so
(12:19):
finally she really got so hungryfor Jesus that she started
actually coming to ask morequestions and coming to church.
But when she saw some of theposts, social media posts,
people who went to the churchshe was now attending and she
thought I cannot be a part of it.
(12:41):
I don't even want to be a partof that right, because how can
you talk about Jesus and Jesusand live so contrary to what
you're proclaiming right?
And so she stopped and that wasa tremendous grief.
(13:01):
And I think sometimes what'shappened is that sometimes we
forgot, we have forgotten whatthe mission is, that we do have
a mission of being good newspeople to our world and instead
we get hunkered down in aparticular opinion or something
that we believe will save ourpiece of the pie going forward
(13:27):
and we forget that we're calledreally to be servants.
And maybe that's one of thethings that's been forgotten is
that in all of this it's beenkind of a lot about power and
how can I have religious powerso we can get done what we want
to get done, rather thanrealizing that, as one person
(13:49):
put it, when Christianity hasassumed to a position of power,
things have usually not gonevery well now sometimes we
forget that.
Grantley Martelly (13:58):
you know, our , our call is not to power, our
call is to servanthood.
But one of the things that keepcoming up to me too is, you
know that I've noticed in in thechurch and in religious circles
is people don't recognize somepeople don't recognize what is
(14:19):
biblical and what is traditionaland what is cultural and what
maybe even the way they werebrought up and they may be in
church their whole lives or theymay be coming to church or
whatever, and you see, some ofthe things that they do and it's
like that's not biblical,that's cultural.
A lot of the things that Ibelieve we saw in the election,
(14:42):
whether it was for power orwhether it was for whatever the
position was, you know, abortionor immigrant rights or all
these things lots of those aretraditional and cultural,
because what the Bible saysabout immigrants and orphans and
widows is pretty clear right,we have a mandate to take care
(15:02):
of the widow, the immigrant andthe orphan right.
He didn't say we consult withthe Supreme Court or the
Congress on what we do.
He said that is what we do,that is what you're supposed to
do.
But then you get in thiscultural thing about what about
this and what about that, andyou know the way that I see it.
(15:23):
You know I tell people I, as arepresentative of the kingdom of
God, when God brings somebodyinto my life, into my circle, is
not to ask them what theirstatus is.
He didn't bring them to me toask them what their status was.
He brought them to me for ahigher purpose of what they do
and what they don't do.
(15:44):
And I think sometimes we getcaught up in these things.
You think about things likereligious nationalism.
I call it religious nationalismjust because it's not just
Christians.
Nearly every religion hasreligious nationalism, right.
And how we want to structurethe government or structure the
(16:05):
society to support our religionand our faith, right.
And that's how we get into thispower struggle.
Who has the most power tochange the way things are?
Whether we call it religiousnationalism or Sharia law or
whatever, it's the same thing of.
(16:26):
If I can get me and my group inpower, then we can force
everybody around us to becomelike us.
Dr. Andre Sims (16:36):
Yeah, well, it's kind of like finances, right,
like your job is not your source, right, my job is not my source
.
God is my source.
Right, the government is not mysource for peace.
Correct, god is my source.
That doesn't mean I don'tadvocate for righteous people in
(16:57):
government.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm just saying that thenationalist, or the nationalism,
tends to lean beyond the scopeof what the scripture would
advocate for when it comes totrying to find an answer to
whatever the societal ill mightbe.
(17:19):
And when you mentioned cultural,you know we have this idea of
these colloquial phrases likethe ends justify the means.
But as a believer, the end hasto be as moral and biblical as
the end.
I don't get to use a wicked orungodly means to get to the end.
(17:41):
It all has to be on the table,in the light, yeah, god honoring
.
It can't be under the table orin the dark or contrary to
Scripture as opposed tocongruent with scripture, and
then say, okay, well, we did it,we landed where we wanted to
land.
Now, god was dishonored andgrieved the whole time, but we
(18:03):
landed.
Grantley Martelly (18:04):
But I would say, andre even take that
further that for the believer,for the person of faith, the
means is more important than theends.
Okay, the means carries a lotlonger message, because people
will watch how we act, watchwhat we do.
How did you get there?
We may get there and say, yeah,but people are remembering
(18:24):
everything that happened alongthe way, right, what we did here
, what we did there, and wecould cause more harm in the way
we got there than in what weaccomplished.
It suggests that we can't trustGod to do it.
Dr. Andre Sims (18:40):
We have to manipulate it, because God alone
will not, cannot, hasn't,whatever the case might be.
Pastor David Rodes (18:51):
Yeah, and you end up saying then that
somehow I can keep my heartright and maybe a means that is
not loving and reach an end thatI really want.
We say that could be to theglory of God.
But again, like if we grievethe Holy Spirit getting there,
then by the time we get there wewon't know what to do with that
(19:13):
power because it will beself-serving right.
And it will exclude otherpeople and it will always
justify I'll always use it tojustify my meat.
Dr. Andre Sims (19:25):
N ot y'all and them, but as believers and I'm
in the family of God as abeliever, I'm quick to justify,
rationalize my own sin.
I'm quick to excuse what I'vedone, because I don't want to
deal with the conviction and thereality of having failed God
yet again, in whatever area itis that I have fallen short in.
(19:49):
So I understand why it happens.
I think our conversation is oneof helping us to own the fact
that the next step, after I cometo that realization, is to
repent of what it is that theHoly Spirit has convicted me of
(20:09):
and to potentially help with therestoration of those who
suffered as a result of my sinchoices.
You know I'm a big advocate forlearning.
What I don't like is when Imake choices that cause me to
learn at other people's expense.
Grantley Martelly (20:31):
Yeah.
Pastor David Rodes (20:33):
So any other observations?
Yeah, I just think that one ofthe things that's contributed to
the chaos is that we've lostour appreciation for the value
of words.
Words matter, right, what issaid, how it is said.
So there's a lot of hatefulrhetoric and and then it's kind
of like it's a feeding frenzy,right, and it just increases
(20:56):
more and more and it can betoward.
It can be toward a people group, I mean, even if it's toward a,
a group of people that I maynot agree with.
Still, the words matter, rightme.
Disagreeing with them does notgive me a license to dehumanize
that that's good.
We talked, I mean in experienceswe've had in the past.
(21:17):
I've just come up.
This phrase has meant a lot tome, and that is that issues have
labels but people have names,and so but I can address issues
and be as mean as I want to be,but I forget.
On the other side of that arepeople who have names that are
actually created in the image ofGod, who are as equally loved
by God as I am, and so I justthink we've just somehow we've
(21:43):
just forgotten the power ofwords and man.
The scriptures are filled withthat, and the ultimate word
spoken to us has been the wordfrom God's mouth, jesus himself
right, that's good.
Dr. Andre Sims (21:54):
Yeah, the overflow of the heart, the mouth
speaks, and so it's exposing,it's revealing what I choose to
say.
I have a friend that owns acompany and one of her most
common phrases amongst heremployees is that everything is
evidence.
Everything is evidence amongstour employees is that everything
(22:14):
is evidence and everything isevidence.
And so the way that I speak toyou, if I don't Ephesians four,
15, choose to speak to you inlove, then I've failed at the
task.
Sometimes people, because it'sthe truth, they just believe it
can come out any kind of waybecause whatever is being
(22:36):
communicated is true.
But I still have thisobligation to speak the truth in
love.
Grantley Martelly (22:44):
That's what Right.
Dr. Andre Sims (22:46):
You can't drop the phrase right, Right.
Grantley Martelly (22:48):
You know and I talk about this all the time
right, love our neighbor asourself.
And too many times we just saylove our neighbor and we forget
that as ourselves.
Yes, right, and if you do that,you can love or your neighbor
and still wish them harm orstill speak evil of them or
(23:09):
still do all of these thingsBecause again they just I'm just
loving my neighbor, right, andI can love them.
You know, yeah, it's true, youknow it's true.
But if you put as yourself onthe end, then it says everything
I want for myself, I want formy neighbor.
If I don't want to be treatedthat way, then my neighbor
(23:29):
shouldn't be treated that way.
That's good.
If I don't want that kind ofschool for my kids, then I
shouldn't want it for mychildren.
If I don't want people to livein, if I don't want to live in
fear, then I shouldn't want myneighbors to live in fear.
When you put the as yourself onthe end, it changes how we
approach the person.
Pastor David Rodes (23:50):
So true, it becomes personal, it becomes
personal.
It actually has to becomepersonal, it has to become
personal right and that's a bigcaveat in the whole thing, right
?
Grantley Martelly (24:02):
Yeah, and that's one of the things that I
saw was missing at this electionthe as yourself part.
There was a lot of neighborstuff, some good and not so good
, but there was not, in my, myopinion, and it's not a lot of
people right.
So a lot, of, a lot of peopledid the right thing, a lot of
people were kind and tried to,but there was the, the, the
(24:24):
atmosphere that the tension ofthe election to me was not love
your neighbor as yourself and,and we're talking about like
within the church, Like ifwithin the church there had been
this love your neighbor asyourself, which is like this
expression of how we return loveto God right Then in the church
(24:47):
.
Pastor David Rodes (24:47):
if there had been that, then the church
could have been a witness to theworld as to the power of the
love of Christ.
That's good.
Grantley Martelly (25:01):
I want to touch on this area of racism a
little bit more before we turnthe corner, because I think we
would all agree that the churchhas not dealt with the issue of
racism very well.
I definitely would agree withthat, Whether it's in practice
or in conversation, and the factthat we can't even have
(25:23):
conversations in churches aboutthis right says a lot about why
we haven't dealt with it.
And one of my wishes will bethat someday we could get to the
point to where we can haveconversations about these things
, about racism, about how wetreat each other in a way that
(25:45):
is constructive, so that we canactually deal with it.
And one of the things I learnedand I learned this in our family
reunions when we had a familyreunion about looking back at
how we were raised and ourpsychology and the things that
were endemic in our family, andone of the things I came out of
that with we can talk about ourancestors and our foreparents
(26:11):
and how they lived and thethings they did, without being
disrespectful of them, if you'rewilling to have the
conversation and if youunderstand that they were acting
within the knowledge that theyhad at that time.
And I tell people all the time Idon't think the framers would
be impressed with us walkingaround trying to defend their
(26:33):
decisions like we are.
They would be like we just madethe decisions we had to make at
the time we were in the room,we were in the situation.
We may disagree with them,whether they were slave owners
or whatever, but I think theywould say you know, we made the
decisions we had to make, so whyare you trying to defend it and
try to pretend that we wereperfect?
We never said we were perfect.
We wanted to create a perfectunion, but we never said we were
(26:56):
perfect.
But we can't even have thatconversation.
Pastor David Rodes (27:00):
That's true.
I mean it's really, I mean it'sdifficult because I think
there's so much.
There's such a knowledge gap,right, and an experience gap
many times.
So when George Floyd wasmurdered, I made a decision
(27:22):
personally at that time to say Iknow how things go.
Something happens and thenyou're all committed to trying
to figure it out for a fewmonths and then everybody goes
back to work right, and thenyou're all committed to trying
to figure it out for a fewmonths and then everybody goes
back to work right and then youforget it and I just decided
that that wasn't going to happenfor me.
And so I found ways to starttrying to really learn and
(27:44):
understand some of this.
And I'll just say that a lot oftimes, if you look from my
experience, my white perspective, so I took a trip to East Texas
where a belovedgreat-great-great-grandfather
who came over and he settledthere and he established that
(28:06):
county in East Texas, in EastTexas.
And I got there and I learnedhe was a slave owner and then
child slavery, right.
And so we went to the libraryand we checked out the records
and what he owned and listedunder what he owned was his
(28:27):
house and his slaves.
He owned them, and so now allreports written reports was that
he was like a godly man, thathe treated his slaves well, that
he even had them buried withhim, but that did not excuse the
whole system.
And so my brother and I, we tookthis trip and so we stood on
(28:53):
that land and we just said,Jesus, would you please forgive
us?
And we made a repentance right,because I'm of the view that in
doing that it not only doessomething in our hearts but also
does something in the spiritualrealm that can affect something
(29:15):
in on the spirit, on thephysical realm, right On how we
live out.
And so I, I just like so it'shard to talk about a lot of
times because you don't want tolike diminish people Sure, you
don't want to, you know, and atthe same time I mean you want to
defend their intentions.
A lot of times I've had goodintentions, but it was just good
(29:38):
intentions about the thingsthat were not, they're not.
Dr. Andre Sims (29:41):
Yeah, we don't always receive correction well
like that.
We tend to be defensive.
But Solomon said, proverbs 27,5, open rebuke is better than
hidden love.
There's something to be saidfor someone who loves you enough
to tell you what.
(30:02):
Thus saith the Lord.
Again, that doesn't give themthe right to be ugly or hurtful,
but to say what the truth isand allow, within the family of
God, allow the Holy Spirit totake that truth and for him to
minister to the person based onpotentially something they
didn't even know.
(30:22):
And so when James mentions theroyal law, james chapter 2, and
he's talking about he liststhese sins, explaining that if
you fall short in one part ofthe law, you're guilty of
breaking all of the law.
I think that again, as believerswe kind of got that old country
buffet golden corral mentality.
(30:43):
We're cherry picking differentportions of scripture to stand
on and believe in and represent.
But actually we're supposed tobelieve in the whole counsel of
God, not just the parts that fitwell with my history, of my own
culture or family or heritageor right.
(31:04):
I got to own the fact thatbecause we're all fallen, I've
got fallen people in my familytree who made fallen choices
that potentially are impactingme and or the culture today, and
I'm no exception.
I'm not the guy that has it'mnot properly representing as a
(31:41):
son of God, and so this ideathat I can focus on an issue
I'll just take abortion as anissue and I can make this
grandiose thing which I knowfrom people who are more
educated than me about it likegranted, even what people think
they know about the issue isn't100% accurate.
Grantley Martelly (32:03):
It's not what was discussed, right.
Dr. Andre Sims (32:06):
But let's just assume that I've landed in the
right place biblically.
I've looked at Psalm 139 and Ihave some understanding about
when birth begins, at conceptionand so on and so forth.
But then when somebody brings upthat, whatever the movement is
maybe not a statement, maybe nota sentence, maybe not a quote
(32:28):
of a phrase, but the movement ofthe, whatever the political
party, the, whatever thepolitical party is, or whatever
the direction is politically,the movement is causing or
creating or opening the door foremboldened racism or sin, I'm
supposed to take a step backfrom whatever that is,
recognizing that all sin isequal, and say, well, I don't
(32:51):
know that I could advocate forsaid entity or said person or
said organization or said,because, as a believer, my goal
is to be an ambassador of Christ, not an ambassador of, and then
you can fill in the blank andthat's whom I'm called to
represent, as opposed to whatI'm choosing to do with my
(33:14):
liberty and freedom in thiscountry.
So I just think that having theability to have that kind of
conversation, where my desire isto be one with Dave, not to be
right in my argument with Dave,Right, yeah, To have a
discussion Right and to have adiscussion right.
Grantley Martelly (33:33):
And, yeah, I'll just say we're not called
to be issue believers.
We're not called to be peopleof issue.
We're called to berepresentative of the entire
gospel, of the entirety of thegospel, right, amen.
We're not given the privilegeof cherry picking Even the
(33:54):
things that we're strugglingwith.
We're not given the, in myopinion, the privilege to cherry
pick that and say well, I'mgoing to stand with all the
Bible, but this issue that Ihave, I'm just going to put that
aside.
Dr. Andre Sims (34:10):
And I'm going to go on which is the one the Holy
Spirit has tried to get.
Yeah, the one he's trying toget, he's sending the Grandleys
and the Daves to me to say Iknow you're working on these
eight, but this one over here Itold you about three years ago,
that's the one I'm trying to get.
That's the one.
Grantley Martelly (34:24):
I'm trying to get right and I think what
we've developed nowadays is, insome places, issue believers.
Right, I believe because ofthis issue or that issue or that
issue, I'm supporting this orwhatever.
I'm trying to help people seethe totality of the gospel, the
totality of the message and like, even though the person you're
(34:45):
dealing with may not be right ineverywhere, they're still
valuable in the sight of God.
Amen, right, it's like theperson who comes to Christ.
They're coming to Christbecause they're not perfect,
right, and sometimes I'm jokingaround that.
Sometimes we want people to besanctified before they come to
God.
For sure you know that wouldhelp.
Pastor David Rodes (35:05):
That would be very helpful.
That would be, you know.
Grantley Martelly (35:09):
So, and I think some I brought that up
because sometimes it translatesinto I think it translates into
life, right, Right, I would loveyou as my neighbor, as myself,
if you just did this, this andthis first Right, you know.
Dave's got to do this, this andthis first, and then I'm going
to put the eyes of yourself onhim, but until then he's just a
(35:30):
neighbor.
Yeah, I don't know if this ismaking sense or not, but it's
like oh, we're tracking with you.
Dr. Andre Sims (35:35):
We're tracking with you.
We're tracking Micah 7-7, but,as for me, I watch in hope for
the Lord.
I wait for God.
My Savior, my God will hear me.
In the midst of all the chaosand all the frustration and
everything that we talked aboutso far.
There is hope in the God ofhope.
(35:56):
We do have his ear 24 hours aday, seven days a week.
He doesn't sleep, he doesn'tslumber.
He knows Grant Lee's pain.
He knows Dave's frustration.
He knows Andre's frustration.
He knows Andre's disappointmentand he's listening to whatever
the petitions are, whatever itis that we're asking of him, and
(36:21):
his desire is that we wouldplace our hope by faith, even
though the circumstance may lookhopeless.
Grantley Martelly (36:32):
He desires that we place our so you turned
a corner for us there.
I did.
Thank you for doing that.
Dr. Andre Sims (36:37):
I knew our time was.
That was a good turn.
Thank you for doing that.
Grantley Martelly (36:40):
You know we want to end on hope and that's a
great, great transition there.
What do you see as the hope forus?
Pastor David Rodes (36:49):
Well, I think we're talking about love
right.
So you've been talking aboutlove your neighbor as yourself.
The first part is love God, butthat is a response to God's
love for us, and I think wherewe've gotten is because we have
become even professing believers, have become alienated from the
(37:10):
love of God.
Believers have become alienatedfrom the love of God.
If we would once again sit inthe presence of the God who
loves us extravagantly,relentlessly, then something
would begin to happen within theheart, because I just think
that the love of God is thatstrong that may then release us
(37:31):
to actually and I owe my brotherStan you know he's been doing
some reflecting on this, but youknow, jesus did have a pool.
He put everybody in, you know,and that pool was neighbor.
So love your neighbor asyourself.
(37:51):
And so if, if out of the loveof God I mean not believed in
the love of God but experiencethe love, then that I think that
can begin to open a door to toreally love the person next to
me who doesn't look like me,doesn't agree with me, isn't on
the same wavelength I am, is notin my group, not in my club,
(38:15):
does or doesn't go to my church,but just recognize that love is
to flow toward that neighbor.
Grantley Martelly (38:20):
Or they may not go to no church.
That's right.
Pastor David Rodes (38:23):
They may not want anything to do with God.
Yeah, we're still called tolove them.
Grantley Martelly (38:29):
We are man.
So this thing of hope, right, Ithink about this.
And how do we help people tosee that, even though we live in
a country and this podcast islistened to all over the world?
I am amazed at how, when I lookat the statistics, I don't even
(38:50):
know how people are picking itup.
right, but every country has aconstitution, every country has
laws and stuff.
And how do we help people tosee that our hope is not in our
constitution or our SupremeCourt or our president or our
Senate, but our hope has to bein something that is unshakable
(39:12):
and unmovable and doesn't swayover the tides or the political
climate of which party is inpower, because those things will
change.
Dr. Andre Sims (39:22):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean, we serve a Godthat's immutable, right,
Unchanging.
Jesus is the same Hebrews 13, 8, yesterday, today and forever.
And so, even though I'm crazyabout people that I'm close to
and I got some people, by thegrace of God, that are crazy
about me but as I was on thisbrother's phone yesterday on my
(39:43):
way to church, I said, man, youhave affirmed me and I'm
encouraged, but I have to warnyou, I'm broken, Like.
I appreciate you saying thisand that about me, but my hope
and I want your hope to be inthe one who is immutable.
I want your hope to be in theGod of hope.
(40:05):
Romans, I looked this up.
Romans 15, 13.
Romans, I looked this up.
Romans 15, 13,.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace as you
trust in him, so that you mayoverflow with hope by the power
of the Holy Spirit.
That's where our hope is rooted.
Pastor David Rodes (40:22):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's.
The hope is in him right.
Dr. Andre Sims (40:28):
Amen.
Pastor David Rodes (40:29):
I want to pick up on the word you said.
We're broken and I think forthe restoration of hope and to
live it, there has to be likethis different posture I said on
one occasion talking to a groupabout how to love people of the
LGBTQ community.
(40:49):
I was just talking about theissue of, you know, with social
media and the bad behavior ofsome Christians, we've dug
ourselves into a deep hole,right For sure.
Dr. Andre Sims (41:01):
bad behavior of some Christians.
Pastor David Rodes (41:02):
We've dug ourselves into a deep hole,
right For sure and so, but thethought is, the only way out of
the hole is to get low enough,like you have to actually have
to become people who are willingto say, hey, I'm broken.
It's the grace of God thatmeets me where I am.
It's the grace of God that canmeet you where you are.
(41:24):
And this is our hope.
It's his grace, right.
It's his powerful love, that is, I don't think he looks past
our stuff.
I think he looks at it and getson our side in it and immerses
himself in the mess of it, right?
And I think our hope is goingto be found that, because it's
not going to be like a wishfulthinking sort of thing, it's
(41:44):
just actually going to be likehands and feet of.
Jesus with people who are alsodesiring and needing the mercies
of God, like we are.
Grantley Martelly (41:55):
And we extend that hope to people by
extending grace and mercy.
Dr. Andre Sims (42:00):
For sure.
Grantley Martelly (42:00):
Giving them the ability to, as we realize we
are broken, that they're brokentoo.
And if we're willing to giveourselves room to be broken, we
got to give other people room tobe broken.
And then we got to trust in theGod that we say is immutable
and unshakable.
Just as he's working with us,he can work with them.
(42:21):
Amen.
Pastor David Rodes (42:22):
To bring them along.
Grantley Martelly (42:24):
Amen, you know we may be on different
parts of the journey, but if wegive them some grace and some
empathy and some space and saywe may not agree right now or,
you know, whatever you want todo lifestyle, racism, politics,
this thing or the next thing butif we give it to God, he can
(42:46):
bring us together on thisjourney and we can walk together
and maybe, while you'restruggling with your struggle
and I'm struggling with mine, wecan help each other along and
we don't shun, Like I thinkwe've learned in recent years
how to shun people right and so,instead of shunning, we are
(43:06):
actually to be hospitable yeahwe're actually to be gracious,
and not only when we're aroundthem, but but how we talk about
them yeah, and and a lot oftimes when we shun people, we
also shun in issues.
We're also shunning issues.
So I think that's one of thereasons why we don't talk about
(43:26):
some of these issues.
Dr. Andre Sims (43:29):
And then we kind of have this unfortunate
challenge of, as they say,throwing the baby out with the
bathwater.
I really, really don't want tooffend Dave because we're
friends but we have differentethnicities, and since I don't
want to offend him or saysomething that steps on his toes
, unintentionally even, I'm justnot having the conversation.
(43:50):
I just much rather let's justtalk about the Seahawks and the
need to beat the Rams this weekand that be our engagement Very
surface.
And that be our engagement Verysurface, non-invasive, because I
don't want to misstep, but outof the fear of misstepping, I'm
(44:10):
closing the door on someopportunity to connect and
engage in a way that'sministering, that's mutually
beneficial.
Grantley Martelly (44:19):
But it's mutually beneficial to us.
But it also demonstrates toother people who may come along.
Us having that discussion maybe an open door to other people
to come along who are strugglingas well, because it's not
always about us, right it'sabout the kingdom Are you sure?
Dr. Andre Sims (44:41):
It could be a little radical right here.
Pastor David Rodes (44:42):
It's about the kingdom, are you sure?
Are you sure it could be alittle radical right?
Grantley Martelly (44:45):
here it's about the kingdom right, amen.
Bringing everybody along in thekingdom and getting back to
this racism and these topics wedon't want to talk about until
we start talking about thesethings.
I think there's a lot ofopportunity in talking about
these things because I think wemay be surprised how many people
are willing to have theconversation and people who are
(45:05):
willing to come on board, whomay right now be like your
friend, saying I can't do thatanymore because of that.
We start having theseconversations.
Pastor David Rodes (45:12):
maybe she will come back, yeah because
somebody's willing to talk aboutit.
I think the matter too, just tosay about hope is I think hope
has to like, it has to show up.
Like hope has to, it's not justa word, it has to show up.
I was reading in light of thefears that a lot of immigrants
are facing these days.
(45:33):
I was taken to Hebrews 10.32.
Remember those earlier days,after you had received the light
, when you endured a greatconflict full of suffering.
Sometimes you were publiclyexposed to insult and
persecution.
At other times you stood sideby side with those who were so
treated.
So the issue was that sometimesyou went through it, but
(45:55):
sometimes, because of this hoperight, you stand side by side,
stand by side with.
God and I think that our hope islike.
So.
Many people can look at thewhole Christian hope and say,
well, that's just like wishfulthinking.
Or people may say, well, I hopeit all turns out right.
Well, the hope is reallygrounded in the compassion and
(46:17):
the love that is demonstrated.
Dr. Andre Sims (46:19):
Yeah, and I'd love to pick up on that word
demonstrated right.
So repentance is something youdo, right.
It's a Matthew three eightproduce fruit in keeping with
repentance.
There's something noticeableabout what you're going to do,
different.
You've got a change of mind anda change of heart and you're no
longer walking this direction.
(46:40):
You have this 180 degree, itdemonstrated, there's a turn and
you're now marching to a newdrum and walking in a new light,
and my ability to see thatgives me hope, even if I don't
even understand what what thatis exactly.
But I do recognize theencouragement I'm gaining from
(47:04):
watching this person, or thatperson, this entity, that group
Within the body.
Pastor David Rodes (47:11):
I see us moving towards the will of God,
according to the Word of God,and that helps me have hope and
I think if we do it, then whatyou're saying and we demonstrate
it and it's accompanied withjoy, like one of the things I
noticed through all of this longelection year and before is how
(47:34):
many people of faith didn'tdemonstrate any joy right the
fear had gripped andhopelessness was very much there
, or it was placed just in a man.
Grantley Martelly (47:48):
Yeah, so fear does not exist with hope.
They can't coexist together.
So if we are fearful, it'sgoing to be hard to be hopeful.
Well, we want to wrap this upby just saying you know, our
hope as people of faith is notin our systems, not in our
(48:11):
country, not in all the thingsaround us, as good as they may
be, because we all benefit fromthat, but our hope is in a
higher calling in a solidfoundation in a rock that does
not move.
The old song said we have ananchor that keeps the soul
steadfast and sure as thebillows roll, and our hope is in
(48:33):
Jesus Christ.
And if we put our hope in JesusChrist, regardless of our
political position, regardlessof the social, economic,
political things going on aroundus, yes, we have to be engaged,
yes, we have to stay engaged.
Yes, we need to speak up forthose who can't speak up for
themselves.
Yes, we need to representjustice and peace and
(48:54):
righteousness.
But our hope is not in thosethings.
Our hope is in Jesus Christ.
And if you don't have that hopein Jesus Christ and you're
fearful about what's going on,then I would encourage you to
put your hope in Jesus Christ.
And if you don't know how to dothat, just send us an email at
abovedenoise24 at gmailcom andwe will get in touch with you
(49:17):
and we will help you answer thatquestion.
Thanks for watching.
Thanks for watching for sure.
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