Does Everything Happen for a Reason? Predestination vs Free Will

Does everything happen for a reason? This age-old question sparks intense debate among Christians. 

Join Pastors Dave and Jeff as they navigate the complex theological tensions between God's sovereignty and human free will.

Discover how these opposing views impact our understanding of suffering, prayer, and the purpose of our lives. With personal stories and pastoral wisdom, they unpack this divisive topic in a way that brings comfort, clarity, and a renewed confidence in God's goodness. 

Whether you lean towards Calvinism or Arminianism, this conversation will challenge your assumptions and deepen your faith. 

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Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
In today's episode, we're having a conversation

(00:01):
about the question, doeseverything happen for a reason?
What is God's role in the worldwhen it comes to sovereignty?
Does God predestin Everything?
What's the role of free will?
Does free will even exist? DoesGod ordain for everything that
happens? Or what part do we haveto play in this if you'd like to
hear more, tune in. Heyeverybody. Welcome to the

(00:22):
Allison Park leadership podcast,where we have our culture
greeting conversations. My

Jeff Leake (00:27):
name is Dave and my name is Jeff, and we're glad you
joined us for today's episode.
You had a weird pause there,like you weren't sure. Is this a
podcast

Unknown (00:33):
I forgot for a second, yeah. So

Jeff Leake (00:36):
do we have any reviews for anybody? Any shout
shout outs before

Dave Leake (00:38):
we do reviews, but we do want to give gratitude and
thank you to those who have beenlistening for a while and for
and as always, you can help us anumber of ways. As you're
listening, if you want to likeand subscribe on YouTube, you
can subscribe on any podcastplatform. You can leave us a
five star review if your if yourplatform has that available, and
if you're on Apple podcasts, wecan see your name. So if you
leave us a five star review, wewill give you a special shout

(00:59):
out to say thank you for being apart of the community in
general. Thanks for joining.
We're glad you're here, and wewant to

Jeff Leake (01:04):
give a big shout out to our producer, Matt Smith, who
has really upped our game. Imean, we have the new studio
that we've been in for a littlewhile. We've been using the
clips the last couple episodes,which is really cool. The the
little mini clips that we putout on Tiktok and Instagram and
and such have really improved.
And so I just love the fact thatour product is getting better.
And we are now concluding, whatis this? The end of our fourth

(01:26):
season. We go into Season Fiveyear, fifth year. So we're
getting ready to head into abrand new year. So again, thanks
for being a part of our podcastaudience. We appreciate you.
Five

Dave Leake (01:37):
years is a long time.

Jeff Leake (01:38):
It is a lot of episodes. First episode was

Dave Leake (01:41):
in November of 2019, 2019, so it's been five years
now. Wow,

Jeff Leake (01:46):
amazing. All right, so what are we talking about
today? Dave,

Dave Leake (01:49):
well, we should say, if you're listening to this, as
it's being released, HappyThanksgiving. You know that just
happened for us. It's a few daysbefore Thanksgiving, and Merry
Christmas in advance, becausewe're almost there, crazy. I
wish we could show Matt C, C,3p, O, Christmas droid. It's
over there in the background.
Maybe we'll get that for thenext episode. Just get people in
the mood. Okay, so today wewanted to talk about, we want to

(02:11):
talk about God's sovereignty,meaning the control that God has
over our lives, the world,actions, things like that. And
we wanted to maybe sort ofcenter the conversation around a
phrase that gets kicked around,at least in TV shows. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (02:27):
a lot it is. It's a common response to a from a lot
of people in life to when thingsthat are happening in our life
that aren't ideal, people oftensay everything happens for a
reason. Yeah. So you'll see thisin a TV show, in a movie, like,
hey, you know it's okay. I knowthey've just broke up with you,

(02:47):
but everything happens for areason. Or it

Dave Leake (02:49):
does feel like a TV show phrase, like a Hallmark
movie, like the Christmas Princeor something. It's like, oh,
good thing I dropped my shoe.
Like, like, like, a, like, aweird western movie. It's not
that it's weird, butserendipity, right? Like, oh, we
had this book and he found it inthe stack at the library. By the
way, that's one

Jeff Leake (03:07):
of my favorite Christmas movies, actually. Is
it Christmas? Well, it's set inChristmas. It's really a rom
com, okay? It's a rom com that Icompletely disagree with the
premise of, but I thought wasreally an enjoyable movie back
2000

Dave Leake (03:22):
whatever it was.
Yeah. Anyway, so now, now thatwe know Jeff's favorite rom com,
yeah. So, so I guess thequestion is, does everything
happen for a reason there?
Obviously there's a nonChristian way to look at, does
everything happen for a reason?
But then, from even a Christianperspective, I think that's a
it's a question that not allChristians would agree with.

(03:42):
Does everything happen forreason? Is God? Is God in
control of all things? You know,I

Jeff Leake (03:47):
think actually, this is one of those phrases, Dave,
where a lot of people might eventhink that this is in the Bible,
everything happens for a reason.
It's one of these. It's one ofthese statements, like God helps
those who help themselves, orwhat cleanliness is like next to
godliness? Well, nobody

Dave Leake (04:02):
thinks that's in the Bible. I think you'd be
surprised whenever Jesus saidcleanliness is next to godliness
after washing the disciplesfeet. Actually

Jeff Leake (04:10):
think that in our culture, there is probably a
lower level of biblicalliteracy. And so a lot of these
truism statements that are saidout there, I think a lot of
times people might assume thatthey are about Bible phrases.
But at least people might thinkthat everything happens for a
reason is a is a scripturalconcept, right? Because there
are certain verses that sort ofintimate, that like the one of

(04:32):
the most quoted, one of the mostoften favorite verses in the
Bible is Romans, chapter eight,verse 28 and God works all
things together for good, forthose who love him and are
called according to His purpose,and so that that almost sounds
like a parallel concept toeverything happens for a reason,
right? God's going to workeverything out. I think that's
what people often mean when theysay this. By the way, God's

(04:53):
going to work it out. It may notseem good now, but not
everything that's bad right nowis going to end up bad, like
something good is going. Comeout of this. You have to keep
believing that. A lot of times,people on TV shows will say the
universe has its way of workingthings out, like as if there is
some fatalistic force in theuniverse that's always working
on your behalf to be right.
Happy

Dave Leake (05:12):
personified universe. Thank you universe. So

Jeff Leake (05:15):
you know, I know it's I know you feel bad right
now. I know you just lost yourjob. I I know that didn't come
through for you, but everythinghappens for a reason, something
out there, if you just keepthinking positive thoughts,
you'll manifest a better futurefor yourself. That's that's like
the flow of thinking around thisparticular statement, sure that,
I guess, links into a largertheological worldview, which is

(05:36):
called Calvinism, which reallyhighly emphasizes the idea that
God is in control of all things,and that everything in your life
is kind of orchestrated toaccomplish his purpose, to to
occur in the world. And so as wetalked earlier, Dave, there's
some hesitation, I guess, inaddressing this particular
thought, because, well,

Dave Leake (05:59):
it's probably the most debated topic in Christian
and recent Christian history,really, at least among
Protestants. Yeah, I'd say, so,okay,

Jeff Leake (06:06):
I'd say, so explain.
But to talk about that a littlebit.

Dave Leake (06:10):
Um, well, there are, there are two opposing
theological views of thesovereignty of God, and we're
going to need to define this ingreater detail. But the idea
that God's in control, that he'sall powerful, all knowing, you
know, omnipresent. He'severywhere, all at once. And so
to what degree does Godorchestrate things in the world?
There's sort of two opposingworld views. The one is

(06:30):
Calvinism, which is that,especially if it's full, there's
like five points. But if you'rea five point Calvinist, it's
that God orchestrates everythingyou know, down to the detail and
the things that seem like theywere bad, we won't understand
until Heaven, but everything isfor the glory of God, and then
the opposite. Let's

Jeff Leake (06:49):
slow down for a moment. So Calvinism is a
worldview, theologicalworldview, that is credited to a
guy named John Calvin who livedin the 1500s was a part of the
Protestant Reformation era, andwrote his, I guess the big, huge
volumes on this idea of the fivepoints, which is, it's the

(07:15):
acronym is tulip. I'll neverremember all five off the off
the top of my head.

Dave Leake (07:19):
I'm never gonna miss one, but total depravity. Oh,
here we go. Forgot the secondone right away. Here. Yeah, so
here, I'll tell you right now.
It is okay, total depravity. Oh,yeah, that's always forgot to
get unconditional election,limited atonement, irresistible
grace, perspirant to the saints.
We maybe we'll talk about whateach one of those means in a

(07:39):
little bit, but I'm stillsetting up the frame of the, you
know, the polar if

Jeff Leake (07:44):
they want to follow along, and you're near a
computer, you can look up tulip,Calvinism to look you'll see
those five things. Okay, so, so,okay, so Calvinism started
again. What a lot of peoplewould say it started in the
scriptures, but Calvin andCalvin

Dave Leake (07:57):
perspective, yeah, right, with John Calvin, yeah.
The underlying thing we'retalking about specifically is
called determinism, and it's theidea that God determines
everything that happens for Hisglory. Right. The other side is
the theological term that'scalled Arminianism, based from a
viewpoint of a guy named JacobusArminian, or Arminius, excuse

(08:20):
me, who was born in the in the1500s as well. This is, this is
sort of what you'd hear termed alot around free will, that God
made people with free will. Sothe opposite side, Arminianism,
opposite, opposite of Calvinism,sort of believes that that
people have the choice ofwhether or not to resist God. So

(08:43):
with Calvinism, God, Godpredetermines everything.
Everybody's pre everybody thatis saved or that's not saved is
predestined to be that waybefore they were born. People
that get saved, God chose them,they're the elect. People that
aren't saved, God has not chosenthem, and they're just going to
be given over to the judgmentthey deserve for their sin,

(09:03):
because they're not.

Jeff Leake (09:04):
Some people were created for hell. Others were
created for heaven. Some werecreated to be away from God.
Some created to be this is, I'mnot saying this is what I
believe. Yeah, yeah, articulate.
Yeah, exactly. And the electionis God gets to choose who's
saved, period, and then limitedatonement, His death on the
cross is really only for thosewho

Dave Leake (09:21):
it was 100 the blood of Jesus that was spilled was
100% effective at savingeverybody he meant to save, and
none of it is wasted on peoplethat didn't choose to accept it.
The opposite side. It has to bei You almost have to contrast
Calvinism to fully catch ourmany, yeah, the opposite side.
So it's not that people canchoose salvation like even even

(09:43):
Armenians believe that the onlyway somebody can get saved is by
the Holy Spirit first drawingyou and awakening you to have
the opportunity to come to Jesusand and receive a salvation. But
Armenians free will. Peoplewould believe that every human
has the ability to resist God.
Yeah, you can say no and oragree with him, right? And

Jeff Leake (10:03):
the spoiler is that that would be our position,
okay, okay, now, you werehesitant for us to talk about
this on the podcast, becauseit's

Dave Leake (10:11):
like the most hotly debated topic. I mean, if you go
to any any college, especiallyany theological Institute, it is
if you have opposing sides,people are intense about this.
Yes, and specifically, a lot ofCalvinist preachers tend to be
very aggressively anti Armenian,like I remember whenever I was

(10:31):
in college, and you know, kindof watching some of the big
names. I won't mention them, butyou if you know this at all, you
know who they are. And just likeridiculing like that. You could
believe anything different. Andyou know, I went to center Bible
college, which was a, you know,at the time, a Bible college in
the Assemblies of God inMissouri. And I mean, even
there, like the position of theAssemblies of God is Arminian.

(10:53):
But even there, it was hotlydebated Calvinism versus
Arminianism. And almost,

Jeff Leake (10:58):
when you aren't toeing the Calvinistic line,
there is almost a disdain forthe other position, because it's
perceived to be an insult to Godto question his sovereignty.
Yes. So the person arguing forCalvinism is trying to defend
God's honor, yes, and

Dave Leake (11:15):
and the person who's arguing for Arminianism is it's
trying to depend God or defendGod's character, His goodness.
Yeah, right. I mean, they'rethose are the two big
attributes, the love and thegoodness of God versus the
sovereignty of God, right? Hisglory, yeah. So again, maybe we
should stick away from Calvinismand arminism and say determinism
and free will, yeah, becausethose are probably easier to

(11:37):
understand. So,

Jeff Leake (11:38):
as we do with a lot of topics that are potentially
controversial. It was actuallyfunny for me, Dave, to think you
said, I don't know, should wetalk about this particular
concept? Because this could bethe most tumultuous. We're going
to get a lot of comments, youknow, from this particular
thing. Yet, we've talked aboutpride, pronouns of the people
God loves. We've talked aboutChristian nationalism. We talked

(12:01):
about Marxist right? Yeah. It'ssort of like, Is this really the
topic to not talk about for theto avoid conflict? You're right,
but, but so how can I say thisIf you disagree with us, please
understand we are not trying todiminish God's glory, nor are we
trying to provoke anybody ortrick anybody. That's true for

(12:21):
all of the conversations that wehave. If you've been a listener
to the podcast, you probablyknow that second thing is our
role in all of theseconversations is pastoral. So
what we're trying to do is helpso the person who's had
something bad in their lifehappen, and someone comes along
and says to them, everythinghappens for a reason. We want
to. We want to unpack thatparticular moment, because as
pastors, we want to help youdiscover meaning and comfort and

(12:46):
confidence in the difficultmoments of your life and to
understand and frame them with aproper theological
understanding, so that you canlean into God's grace in those
moments and not feel abandonedby him, which Sometimes people
feel like, when, when bad thingsoccur. So if we're already
triggering you, we're sorry.
We're trying to,

Dave Leake (13:06):
let me give one more clarification. Okay, I don't
think, I don't think we'reclaiming to be like theologian
experts on, yeah, onpredestination and free will
here. I think we are offering apastoral take. If you want to
get a really in depth, like, ifyou're if you want to nerd out
about this, there's actually aco written pair of books that is

(13:27):
called for Calvinism and againstCalvinism. For, for Calvinism is
written by Michael Horton, andagainst Calvinism is written by
Roger Olson. I don't know RogerOlson. There are two friends
that share differing viewpoints,and they write like a it's not a
series, it's just two books, butthat contrast their opinions in
a very healthy

Jeff Leake (13:49):
with the book recommendations. Come on. Have
you read them? Yeah, yeah.
They're okay. Are they? Arethey, as someone who hasn't read
them? Are they thick theologicalbooks? Okay? They are okay. So

Dave Leake (13:59):
this isn't casual reading, okay? But if you're
like, if you want to really diveinto it, because this is
important to you, those are goodones to kind of get both
perspectives good so, so let'sstart with, do you want to start
by defining God's sovereignty?
I'll say this if we were talkingabout why this is so hotly
debated, in my humble opinion,it's because Romans nine. Romans

(14:21):
chapter nine is a such anexplicitly seems to be clear
text for the side of Calvinism,of predestination, you know,
determinism, excuse me, it'salmost spelled out like word for
word and its chapter. And thenyou have a counter argument in
your head, and then Pauladdresses that counter argument,
you know, as you go through themand argument. You know, as you

(14:42):
go through them, it's nine, butthe counter argument is, in my
view, almost the rest of theentire Bible. The outlook and
perspective is not determinism.
So there's a heavy there'sheavily arguments for. Both that
are cited from the Bible. Thisis not like an extra biblical

(15:03):
thing. This is we can pickverses, and that's why it's such
a Yeah. I mean this, it's like

Jeff Leake (15:08):
any other biblical tension. Yeah, right, right.
When you have a biblicaltension, you have some verses
that say one thing and anotherverse that seems to say the
other thing, and you're like,Okay, somewhere in here, this
tension is a full reflection ofthe reality that's out there.
But the tension is notnecessarily a contradiction,
unless you unless you hold onlyto one side of it to such a

(15:32):
degree that you eliminate theidea that there's the
possibility for something elsegoing on. Sure, and so this is
not to say we live in themiddle. It's just to say that we
have to get comfortable with thefact comfortable with the fact
that some things are intentionthat we may never understand
completely, because we'retalking about the God of all
creation. Sure, we're talkingabout God's ability and
character and nature andcapacity and and so some things

(15:56):
probably should escape us, likewe we can't explain everything
about who God is and how hefunctions. That's not an excuse
to just give up. It just meansthat, I think there is some some
ability to navigate this, thatwe've gotta grab both of these
concepts as we do so. So do youwant to start what? What

Dave Leake (16:13):
does it mean that God is sovereign? Okay,

Jeff Leake (16:15):
so I have this stupid joke that's going on
about in my head. So, so did youhear about the Calvinist that
fell down the stairs? When hegot to the bottom, he got up and
he said, glad to get that overwith. So the idea is I had no
role in the stumble. It just waspredetermined I was going to

(16:38):
fall down the stairs. So nowthat it's over, okay, right? So
if you take it to its logicalextreme, it almost seems to
indicate that nothing I decide,nothing I say, Nothing I do
matters, that I'm just almostrobot robotic, that God has
predetermined everything aboutwhat I say where I live, what

(17:02):
happens to me, how I respond incertain situations, and so
basically, I'm just aparticipant in God's expressed
plan that has no influence by mychoices. I don't know if that
was the question you asked. No.
So

Dave Leake (17:18):
like from your perspective, what is it? What
does it mean that God'ssovereign? What's

Jeff Leake (17:23):
God's sovereign?
Yeah, I'm sorry I got distractedby my so it means that God needs
no one stands on nothing, thathe's completely independent,
that he is completely selfsufficient in and of himself,
and that he has the capacity todo and be whatever he needs to
be without any limitations. Isthat, yeah,

Dave Leake (17:49):
okay, yeah. I think it means that God's all
powerful. Yeah, it's all of

Jeff Leake (17:53):
his attributes together, right? All knowing,
all powerful, unchanging, everyeverywhere, present but standing
outside of everything, so thathe's not dependent on anything,
and therefore he has capacity todo whatever he needs to do,
because he is completely theonly self sufficient being in
the

Dave Leake (18:12):
universe. And I think there is an element that
is that God is in control, yeah,like God. God's sovereignty
doesn't mean that he's just allpowerful, but doesn't really do
anything with it. He's not aremoved, agnostic God who
created the world set intomotion now is absent, letting
everything go to its own ends.
There is a level of God'ssovereignty, which is that he is
orchestrating things. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (18:33):
he's involved in the world. Yeah. He is got strategy
for our lives and for the worldwe live in. He is always working
to accomplish his purposes.
Nothing can really stand againsthim when he starts to move,
because he's has no limits tohis capacity to function, right?
Yeah. So, so

Dave Leake (18:56):
then the tension, man, I'm not I'm not sure
exactly where to go like, do Iwant to go into Romans nine? I
guess so. The question, doeseverything happen for a reason?
Right? If God is sovereign, towhat degree is he involved in
His sovereignty, in directingthe events of the world this?
Does he like, you know, yourjoke about falling down the
stairs? Does he direct everyaccident, every mistake? Does he

(19:18):
direct the toothpaste that youbuy, does he direct only the big
things is it just the moment ofgiving your life to Jesus? Does
he direct sin? Is God the authorof sin, like so we talked about
the two, you know, the twotension points that Calvinism,
that determinism defends. Thepower of God is sovereignty,

(19:39):
that he receives all glory, he'sdetermining all of it. The
opposite side is the goodness.
So if God is sovereign overeverything, is he using every
evil thing for His glory, likeour tsunamis, our genocide, our
race. So now we have to go

Jeff Leake (19:55):
back to the beginning, right, right, right.
So I don't think we should diveinto Romans chapter nine before
we come. Or some beginning,beginning idea. So help me?
Okay, go here, right? So Godcreated the world, and according
to His sovereign will andpurpose, it was perfect. But
then he limited himself. Hechose to limit himself. It's not
that God is limited, it's thathe chose to limit himself to the

(20:19):
will and decision of Adam andEve, and he gave Adam and Eve a
choice. He said to them, if youchoose to eat from this tree of
the knowledge of good and evil,you're going to die. And they
did. And he did not overridetheir decision. He allowed for
their decision to occur, andthen their decision caused the
curse to come upon the worldthat God had put under their

(20:42):
stewardship and care. Soeverything that happens now on
planet Earth is as a result ofGod creating a world that allows
for human free will to affectthe outcomes. So God does not
override human free will. Helimits himself by the will and
choice of the people who livehere. Yeah, and so that means

(21:07):
some things that happen onplanet Earth happen because
human beings have exercisedtheir free will to do evil. And
some things happen on planetEarth because when human beings
exercise their free will to doevil, they caused a curse to
come upon the planet we live in,which now has caused, you know,
there is an upheaval that comeswith that as a result of all

(21:28):
those things. I don't know ifthat I think that's good. So, so
a sovereign God has the abilityto limit himself in the areas
where he chooses to. And so, Ithink that's

Dave Leake (21:38):
so, so let, let's talk about like one of the ways
that we know that God limitedhimself so. So when we read
Ephesians chapter six, it talksabout spiritual warfare. And in
Ephesians 610 we have the armorof God, but on the full armor of
God, seeking sin, against thedevil schemes. And in verse 12,
it says, For our struggle is notagainst flesh and blood, but

(22:00):
against the rulers, against theauthorities, against the powers
of this dark world and againstthe spiritual force of evil in
the heavenly realms. So I thinkit's interesting that the
devil's forces are described asas rulers, authorities and the
powers of this dark world,right? I guess from our
perspective, our theologicalperspective, you know, when God

(22:23):
created people with choice,either to eat of the fruit or
not, and, you know, he gave themas the image bearers. You know,
I can't remember where I readthis thing. This is Tim Mackey
from the Bible product. He talksabout how image bearer, the
image of God, is referencingthat we are the image in the
sense of, like a rulership icon.
So statues in ancient, you know,the ancient world, they would

(22:47):
make a statue of a king, andthat was a symbol of his
rulership and authority in anarea, okay? And so as the image
of God we he, Tim says it'sactually better to say we are
the imagers of God. We are therepresentation of his rulership
on Earth. But when man fell bysinning, they actually handed
over some of the authority thatthey had over all the things of

(23:07):
the earth to name and to and tosteward over to the devil, which
is why in Ephesians six, we talkabout the different powers.
There's rulers like, how canthere be powers and rulers that
are evil, not because Godappointed them, but because the
the authority that was given toman was relinquished at the fall
of man in Genesis, chapterthree. So

Jeff Leake (23:31):
let's so let's make it a simple illustration. I own
a car. I hand you the keys. Isay, take care of this for me
while I'm gone. You give it tosomebody else and they wreck it.
Okay, I still have sovereignauthority over my car, but
because I chose to give it, giveyou permission to utilize it,
and you gave it to somebodyelse, there was a consequence

(23:53):
that came from that, I think,that the world is has been
wrecked, so to speak, becauseGod gave the keys to us, and we
shared those keys with thepowers of darkness, but through
our agreement to do what'swrong, and the result of that
has been all of the evil we seepresent in the world, right,
right? It doesn't take awayGod's sovereignty over the
universe. It just means that Godmade choices to allow for free

(24:17):
will to exist, and the moment helet free will exist, there was
the potential for things to gosideways. And what I look at is,
I say, and God saw that, and hesaw the all of the mess that's
going on in the world, and hedecided to strategically redeem
us from this mess. So then Goddidn't just abandon the world,
and said, I'm done with you. Youguys are made a mess. I don't

(24:37):
want anything to do with you.
We're going to take Earth, we'llput it over here in the
universe, and everything elseI'll take care of on my own.
Care of on my own. God said, I'mgoing to actually come into this
world. I'm going to enter thisworld in the person of Jesus,
and I'm going to work to redeemand restore the people who've
been broken in this world. Andthe eventual return of Jesus
Christ is this idea, One dayJesus is going to come back, and

(24:58):
he's going to. Claim and redeemwhat we may made a mess of so
that it can come perfectly underhis sovereign and complete rule
from now until eternity. And sothis, this little, you know,
interval that will in betweenthe Garden of Eden and heaven,
right? Is the problem interval,because something created this
mess. Yeah right. So one thedeterministic view would be to

(25:24):
say God created this mess sothat in the redemption of
humanity, he would receivemaximum glory.

Unknown (25:33):
Yeah right.

Jeff Leake (25:34):
The free will arminianist argument would say
God did not create this mess. Hegave us free will to choose what
we would do with what he gaveus, and we created this mess.
Yeah, and God, in Hissovereignty, is working overtime
to do everything in his power toredeem us from the mess that we
created. Right, right and and soI hold to that second view,

(25:57):
which is that God is using hissovereign capacity sure to enter
our world and redeem us from thethings that that sin and Satan
has tried to destroy. Yeah, the

Dave Leake (26:08):
key, the key idea here is that God is not limited
by anything except for what hedecides. So God can limit
himself. Yeah, nothing can limitGod. But God can say, Well, I'm
not going to do that because I'msetting rules in place that I'm
going to abide by until the end,and he's still, I mean, God
still reaches hand and doesthings and supersedes things all

(26:29):
the time. But largely the worldthat we live in is a as a series
of consequences from humansdecision to give in to evil and
redefine good and evil forthemselves, which

Jeff Leake (26:39):
is what makes so many things about the Bible
makes sense, right? It does so,like, for instance, prayer,
okay? If, if you believe indeterminism, what

Dave Leake (26:49):
is the purpose for prayer to bring God glory? Okay?
Yes,

Jeff Leake (26:53):
very general,

Dave Leake (26:56):
right, but purpose of evangelism, to bring God
glory, purpose of I meaneverything, right? But

Jeff Leake (27:01):
prayer in its essence is, is my agreeing with
God's promises? Sure. So SecondCorinthians, chapter one, verse
19 and 20, says, For no matterhow many promises God has made,
they are yes in Christ and wesay, amen to the glory of God.
So the idea of God has alreadysaid yes to so many promises

(27:21):
that he wants to have happen inyour life, but those promises
don't get fully released untilyou say, Amen, I agree. So be
it. And then our amening, whatGod has said yes to you, brings
into the world the answers thatwe so desperately need. So God
has an intended will his promisethat doesn't get fully realized
until we say, Yes, God, I wantit in my life. It's like Gabriel

(27:45):
shows up to Mary and says,there's going to be a conception
inside your womb. And this one'sgoing to be the Son of God
you're going to be. You've beenchosen for something amazing.
Mary says, may it be unto meeven as you said. And when she
says this, Jesus is conceivedwithin her womb. That's the
idea, the intended will of God,and my will come into alignment
with God's will. And when thathappens, that's where God begins

(28:08):
to do in the world Hissovereign, redemptive work.
Yeah? Well, I

Dave Leake (28:12):
mean, there's we, there's so many perspectives in
Scripture, yeah? Like James,James 516 where it says, The
prayer of righteous man ispowerful and effective. What's
what, what is effective aboutsomething that's totally
unnecessary and alreadypredetermined, if it's if it's
gonna happen, regardless as towhether you pray or not, what's
effective about prayer? I mean,I'm there's, like, there's, if

(28:32):
you take the viewpoint ofCalvinism, there's, there's
creative ways to explain thesekinds of things. But even if you
look at like, stories the OldTestament. I mean, God's mind is
changed by Abraham and Moses.
Yeah, you know God's gonnadestroy Sodom, right?

Jeff Leake (28:48):
They pray. And he's, they say, God, you know, Abraham
says, What if there's 40righteous people? And he says,
Well, if there's 40, then Iwon't right? What about 30? What
about 20? And then he gets downto 10. Yeah, right. And so
Abraham and God are having aconversation in prayer that
affects God's decision of howhe's going to work redemptively,
and he actually tells

Dave Leake (29:09):
Abraham what his decision is, yeah, I'm going to
destroy this. Okay, so

Jeff Leake (29:12):
it's being done in real time, and it's an
interactive thing, and our willand God will is being mixed
together even salvation. Davidsays, Unless you confess with
your mouth of Jesus Lord andbelieve in your heart God that
raises from the dead, you can'tbe saved. Yeah. So salvation
involves our choice to confessJesus as Lord. So all of this is
a mix of the sovereign will ofGod and my will coming in

(29:34):
alignment with God's will sothat his purpose can prevail in
my life. And the here's thereality. There are some things
that God wants to do in yourlife today that won't actually
be fully released in you unlessyou come into submission to an
alignment with what His purposeis. Yeah. So this is why we
pray, this is why we obey, thisis why we trust. This is why we

(29:56):
give. This is why we preach thegospel. It's all about us
coming. Into an alignment withGod's will that allows for His
purpose, His redemptive purpose.
So that almost sounds like tothe determinist. They say, Oh,
so you get to determine what Goddoes and doesn't do. Not, not
actually, is that God has willedso many things that he wants to
be released and what getsunlocked or unpacked in our

(30:19):
world about God's good intentionshows up because we come into
agreement with it. And that Iknow that. I know that to a
determinist, that sounds like,well, you're you're really
inflating humanity's role inthis whole thing. I'm not
inflating. I think that's justthe free will that God's given
to us. Yeah, that allows for ourpartnership. It's an amazing
thing to think that my agreementwith God has a role in prayers

(30:42):
or promises being released intothe world as I pray. Yeah,

Dave Leake (30:48):
there's a couple other things that I want to hit
on, and I think we eventuallywant to

Jeff Leake (30:52):
get back to, does everything happen for a reason?
Yeah,

Dave Leake (30:55):
this is a bigger conversation, but let a few
things that one of the reallycommon perspectives and examples
that gets shared a lot is abouthow impossible love is if it's
predetermined. You know what Imean? Like, if, if, if something
has no choice but to expressaffection, is it really love?
You know it like if you wind upa toy to say, I love you, and it

(31:20):
doesn't do it unless you do it.
It's actually not a it's notreally love, because love isn't
love until it's a choice. It'schoosing something above other
things. That's actually whatlove So God's

Jeff Leake (31:29):
will is to be in a love relationship with you,
yeah, but he can't have thatwill and purpose realized unless
you love him back like he can doeverything he can do to love
you. But if you don't respondand love him back, then there's
a limitation there, right? Yeah,same thing with any human
relationship. We probably allhave been in a situation where
we love somebody and they didn'tlove us back, yeah. And so that

(31:53):
very real pain is something thatthe God of the universe feels
when we choose to reject him,right, which is mind blowing to
me, yeah, that a god of that Godof this magnitude and holiness
and ability and capacity hasmade himself vulnerable. Yeah?
To us, yeah. It's kind ofbeautiful. In a way. It is pink.

(32:14):
So, so let me tell a personalstory. Did you have another one
you wanted to dive on? I have away to make this, sadly,
personal. Oh, as far as thequestion,

Dave Leake (32:23):
yeah, as far as this whole conversation has a reason,
you know, I have more. I havemore. Okay, because we're
talking still about thesovereignty of God, and I think
there's a so we're, I mean, wegot time, we still got, we got
there's more to hit on thisside, the consequences of
determinism, and if God issovereign, making everything
happen, right? So, one of the,one of the I've even heard this

(32:46):
used self, you know, in a selfdeprecating way by people that
are from the Calvinistmovements. But, you know, you
hear the phrase the frozenchosen, right? They're elect by
God. They're Christians, butthey don't move. They don't
especially do the work ofevangelism, that much, and part
of the purpose is, well, ifeverybody is going to be saved,
whether we do anything or not,why is there really a need?

(33:08):
Everybody is saved, buteverybody, everybody who want,
who God determines to be saved,will be saved regardless as to
what, whether I do it or not.
Like, it's like, well, it wouldaffect everything. Why should I
pray? Sure. Why? Should I? Whyshould I even work to understand
this theological point of viewlike so this is always one of
these sort of weird things, likesomeone is arguing to convince

(33:30):
me of determinism, and I and myresponse once I remember saying
is, well, maybe God hasdetermined for me to think this
way,

Jeff Leake (33:40):
right? Right. So, I mean, you could use that on
anything like whatever is just,is que sera sera, whatever will
be, will be, I mean, it's justgonna, you know, the world is in
the frame that it is it tocompletely remove Free Will from
the conversation almost makesthings feel illogical. It

Dave Leake (33:57):
really does, yeah, and everything gets relegated to
the mysteries of God. Yeah, youknow, like, well, we should, we
should do this because we'recommanded to, and if we love
God, and if God's if we're theelect, then we should do what
God's asked us to do, and itbrings in more glory. And why
would you not want to partnerwith what God wants you to do if
it's going to bring him moreglory? But the the impetus in

(34:18):
the Bible, like in whereas thisin Romans 10, where Paul says,
you know, 1014, how? How thencan they call on the one they
have not believed in? And howcan they believe in one who that
they have not heard? And how canthey hear without someone
preaching to them? And how cananyone preach unless they are
sent? As is written, Howbeautiful are the feet of those
who bring good news. There'slike a thrust and an impetus

(34:38):
with the Great Commission andwith X, you know, one eight to
actually or not. One eight,excuse me, one five, I think, is
what it is, where it talks aboutbeing witnesses and and going
into all the world. And there'sa there's an impetus and a
force. And it's more than justa, in my view, it's more than
just a do this. It's going tohappen regardless. This, yeah.

Jeff Leake (35:01):
I mean, if you really take it to its its
logical end, let's say there's atragic hurricane or tsunami. So
I was gonna go there next,actually, yeah. And so people
are suffering. They're hungry,they have no clean water, their
their children are dying forlack of nourishment. If you say,
well, that's just part of God'ssovereign plan for the earth,

(35:22):
and this is going to bring himultimate glory, and we shouldn't
do anything about it, because weweren't chosen to be in that
hurricane. We were chosen to notexperiencing it. Well, then,
then you have no mission, youhave no compassion, you have no
energy to do good work, becauseall of this is predetermined.
When you realize that my choicein the world affects not just my

(35:42):
life, but it affects the rest ofthe world. That I have a
responsibility. One day, I'mgoing to stand before God and be
judged by whether or not Iactually did something with what
I have, and that, you know, italmost could bring it into the
Good Samaritan story, like thetwo people that walked on the
side of the road that didn'tstop and help the guy be like,
Hey, that was just part of God'splan for his life to get beat

(36:04):
up. But the dude that stops anduses his own resources to take
care of somebody else, obviouslythey realize that my choices
matter, right? So my choicesmatter for me. They matter for
my family. They matter for therest of the world. They matter
for the condition of the world.
And if everything is fatalistic,then there's no reason to act at
all on things like this. And soI don't think, I don't think

(36:26):
this stands, withstands thebiblical test, or the logic
test, either one of those, whenyou really get down to it. And
then when you withstand the

Dave Leake (36:37):
biblical test, if you view everything from the
from the lens of Romans nine. Itreally could,

Jeff Leake (36:42):
but you just read from Romans 10. And Romans 10
says something different.

Dave Leake (36:46):
Well, in Romans, I was gonna say Romans eight,
actually, is the lens from whichyou view Romans nine, in my
opinion, which? So I want to getback to the hurricane thing. Can
I just quickly read this?
Because it popped into my brain,yeah. So, so there we go. Okay,
where are we whoop. I just lostit. Okay, here we go. So,

(37:12):
Romans, here we go. Yeah,Romans. Romans, eight. Let's
start with 828. Okay, so readslow, okay, and we know that in
all things, God works for thegood of those who love Him, who
have been called according toHis purpose. That's actually a
big part of this question. Iseverything happened for a
reason. So So

Jeff Leake (37:29):
people sometimes think that means God works
everything to make me happy,that God works everything
together so that I'll reallylike the outcome. But it means
that that God has very specificpurpose in mind that he is
working everything together,even the things that aren't
pleasant, even the things thatare difficult, to accomplish his
purpose for your good and toaccomplish his for

Dave Leake (37:50):
the good of those who love Him. And that's a big
difference between the good ofall the world, right? I mean, it
is for the good of all theworld. He

Jeff Leake (37:57):
is working for that too, but his ultimate purpose is
described in the next verse,right? And

Dave Leake (38:02):
then so verse 29 says, For those, God foreknew,
He also predestined to beconformed to the image of His
son that he might be thefirstborn. This is Jesus among
many brothers and sisters. Okay,

Jeff Leake (38:13):
so there's these two big words there, foreknowledge.
Yeah. I want

Dave Leake (38:17):
to read verse 32 okay. It says, and those He
predestined he also called thosehe called he also justified.
Those justified. He glorified.
But yeah, you're you're right,foreknowledge and
predestination. So

Jeff Leake (38:29):
God knows everything that will happen, but he doesn't
predetermine everything thatwill happen. But he does
predetermine certain things.
Well, like, for instance, hepredetermines that everything in
my life will work to make melike Jesus, so that, so that I
become according to theprototype of Christ's character
and his nature, sure. And when Ido, when he calls me to be that,

(38:49):
then he justifies me and Heglorifies me, I think is what
you didn't find predestination,by the way. Okay, well, to
determine something that willhappen in advance, to determine
what's going to happen advance,right? Yes, right. So God
predetermined something for mylife and for your life, because
I said yes to Jesus, I said yesto the Gospel, right? God has
predetermined that he is goingto do everything in his power to

(39:09):
make me like Christ. The the aremany use everything in my life,
right direction. But

Dave Leake (39:15):
in terms of, in terms of salvation, being one of
the elect, that Godpredetermines predestines to be
a part of this chosen people,those who have been saved. The
Arminian viewpoint would bebased on Romans 829, for those
that God foreknew, He alsopredestined, yes, so it says,
Because almost it's like he Godhas foreknowledge of the choice

(39:36):
you're going to make. For thosethat God foreknew, He also
predestined to be conformed tothe image of His Son. So there
are many of you would be, all ofall of Romans nine, which talks
about a lot of predestination isbased off of God's foreknowledge
and foresight of the free willchoice that people would make.
And those that God foreknew, Hepredestined, and those that He
predestined he called, and thosehe called, etc. So

Jeff Leake (39:57):
the John 316, verse, Whosoever. Believes in him,
shall not perish, but haveeverlasting life, whosoever
means anyone. Jesus died foreverybody. Yeah, His Atonement
is not limited to a few, right,but God knows in advance those
who will respond to the gospel,and he predestines that they
will become like Christ, yeah,is, is how I read those

(40:19):
sentences that we're studyingtogether, real, yeah,

Dave Leake (40:22):
well, I mean, even Second Peter, three nine, it
says, instead, he's patient,patient with you, not wanting
anyone to perish, but everyoneto come to repentance. Like
God's there, and you gotta dosome mental gymnastics, like,
well, there's things that Godwants, but those are different
than what He wills, becauseGod's actual will is that not
everybody, but God wants, hewishes they could be, but it

(40:43):
just doesn't aid his glory. AndGod's helping for ultimate
purposes, his own glory and notit's like, I mean that to get
there, it's like, it feels likeyou have to prioritize. Well,
Roman science says this. Soeverything else we're gonna
squeeze into this little boxhere to make it make sense.

Jeff Leake (41:00):
And what you're saying, and this is what I
believe, too, is that the wholeof Scripture is this balance
between God's sovereignty andour free will, absolutely. Yeah,
absolutely. And then there'sthese, this, these certain
verses in Romans nine, which wenever really got to, which I
think is okay, yeah,

Dave Leake (41:14):
you can read it for yourself. You want to. It's, I
mean, it's very intense,honestly, that

Jeff Leake (41:18):
involve it. I guess it shows up on the sovereignty
side. Yeah, a lot more. And forsure, talks

Dave Leake (41:24):
about Jacob and Esau, and how God loved Jacob
and Esau hated. And then ittalks about, isn't it God's
right to choose what he doeswith each individual person, and
the quote that he's using there,and Paul quotes for Jacob, I
loved Esau hated, is actually aquote from a prophecy about the
nations of Israel and Edom, whowere the descendants. It's

Jeff Leake (41:45):
less about salvation and it's more about some other
purposes God was trying toaccomplish in the world.

Dave Leake (41:50):
Yeah. And those are reflected of two nations. I
mean, they were both evil,honestly, yeah. But I mean, Edom
had really chosen to rebelagainst God, and in the terms of
the prophecy it's due to theiractions, is why that prophecy
gets given that way. Anyway, Iwant to go back to what you were
saying. As far as you weretalking about tsunamis and

(42:10):
earthquakes and tragedies. Theother part of determinism that
really does God injustice isthat all the suffering in the
world, like, I mean, thesehorrible things that happen to
people are ultimately somehowused for the glory of God, and
that that's what God wants. Hewants for these broken bodies

(42:31):
and these messed up lives andthe trauma that happens. Because
somehow we don't understand, butsomehow it's gonna question God.
There was, and I remember thishappening. I remember looking
into this happening. There wasa, again, a famous Calvinist
preacher, that after 911happened, he got up and said,
Well, this was for God's glory.
And that God, this was God whodid this. And, you know, even if

(42:51):
it would have been with thedirty bomb, and millions of
people would have been poisonedwith gas, that would have been
God's will too. It's all forGod's glory. Like, we have to
see the bigger picture. It'sjust like, Oh, come on. I think
that's that is that is massivelydoing damage to the reputation
of God who is is not willing forgenocide and rape and all you
know what I'm saying, inhorrible disasters, like he can

(43:13):
use everything for his glory,and he can bring good beauty out
of the ashes, like Isaiah 61says, but I don't believe for a
second that the intent of theBible is to make God the one who
causes evil, so that he canbreak bring himself more glory.
Yeah,

Jeff Leake (43:31):
it's now we can start to get into the ministry
portion, because that becomesintensely personal when you're
talking about something justhappened to you. Yeah? So the
everything happens for a reason,is a is a platitude where we're
trying to make sense of thingsthat don't make sense. Exactly.
Okay, so let's go real personalnow, because this will take us

(43:52):
into how do we navigate thesewaters when we're the one in the
hurricane? Okay? So because Ithink a lot of times, people who
see it from a deterministicview, almost, view God as a
authority figure that we have torespect, but we'll never
understand, who probably doesn'treally know what I'm going
through. But somehow it's all or

Dave Leake (44:09):
does, but it's fine because you're like an ant
compared to the glory that isGod.

Jeff Leake (44:14):
It's a kind of a hurtful perspective. It's very
lonely. I don't know how you'renot angry at God when, when?
That's the idea of no right to

Dave Leake (44:21):
be angry, but because you're dressed like so
you're just trapped, you're adirty, wretched sinner who's
only given given grace, andwhich is true to an extent,
yeah, but the the overarchingnarrative, I think, distorts the
character of God.

Jeff Leake (44:34):
Okay, so this is a very personal story, and some of
you have heard me tell thisbefore, but you know when, when?
So we have five children, Dave'sthe oldest, and Jonathan is our
youngest. Jonathan got wasdiagnosed with diabetes when he
was 11, and you know, when allwas going on in the hospital, we
found that he was a diabetic. Mysister's a diabetic. We kind of
understood this. Jonathan wasaware that he was he had just

(44:59):
been. Diagnosed with a seriousdisease he got for the rest of
his life, unless God healed him.
And yet, while in the hospital,he was just, you know, there in
the moment, like Children'sHospital here in Pittsburgh, he
could play video games all day.
He was watching movies. He wasgoing down to the game room. It
hadn't hit him yet. You knowwhat I mean? Like, they were
bringing in whatever food hewanted. He could have ice cream
anytime he asked for it. Okay,so maybe it was the dietetic

(45:23):
version, I don't know, but Okay,so we get home about two weeks
later, we're sitting on thecouch in my living room, and
Jonathan looks over me at 11. Hegoes, Dad, why do you think this
happened to me? And I was like,That is a penetrating question,
and that is the question, whydid this happen to me? So
whatever it is that you're goingthrough in your life right now,
if you're listening to this,this is the question, why did

(45:44):
this happen to me? Of all thepeople in the universe that this
could happen, why me? Why didthis happen to me? And I said,
you know, Jonathan, I don'tknow. I don't answer that
question, but there's a coupleof things that I believe. And I
said, first of all, it's notyour fault. You didn't cause
this. It's not like because yousend somehow that God is

(46:05):
punishing you. So number one, wenever see God ever do that kind
of a thing where to an 11 yearold kid all of a sudden you're
stricken with the disease. Okay?
So second, it's not God's fault.
God didn't create the world tohave diabetes in it. He created
the world to be the garden beatwhen we get to heaven, and His
will is completely felt. Thereis no diabetes in heaven. But

(46:27):
here we on in this world, and welive in a world that's filled
with pain, filled with disease,filled with sickness. It's it's
part of living in this world.
But it's not your fault. I don'tthink it's my fault as your dad.
I don't think it's God's fault.
If we're going to blame anybody.
We blame the devil because thedevil is trying to destroy
everything that is precious toGod. But I don't know that God
the devil even sent thisdirectly on you. It's something

(46:47):
that's happened in this era ofhistory that we live, where so
many things that happen in theworld that are not God's will
and purpose occur. And so weaccept that it's there, and then
we're going to do everything inour power to fight against evil
and to align with God's will andto pray for healing until it
comes. Now, I don't know thathis 11 year old mind contained

(47:10):
all that, but as his dad, that'show I framed it. So does
everything happen for a reason?
I don't think there was aredemptive reason for Jonathan
to be given diabetes, sure, isGod able to take John,
Jonathan's diabetic conditionand the impact that that has on
his life, and sovereignly workin those situations to bring

(47:32):
something good out of it. Goddidn't cause it, but God can use
it. Yeah, God, God. God didn'tsend it, but God can work
through it, right? He he isn'tthe one that struck you down or
caused you to be abused, or, youknow, had you experienced this
horrific thing in your life? ButGod saw what the devil meant for
evil, Genesis, 5020, and is ableto turn it around and use it for

(47:55):
good and for the accomplishmentof his purpose on earth. So,
does everything happened for areason, no, but God can make
something good happen out of it.
So God can bring a reason out ofit. But he didn't send it to you
as a way to say, Okay, this isfor My glory. Ultimately, we
have to admit that, because Godhas limited himself to our free

(48:16):
will, that he allows for thingsto happen, but just because he
allowed it in general, becauseultimately, for God to eliminate
all pain, he'd have to, he'dhave to start over, right? He
have to destroy anyone who'swicked or selfish in any way.
And that's, that's not thedestination we're at until we

(48:38):
get to, yeah, someday, andsomeday, that's what we're
looking forward to. Um, so, soGod isn't causing it all,
although he does allow it,because he allows for the world
to exist in the condition thatit's in where most often His
will is not being done. OnEarth, we would look around, he
would say, most of the thingsthat are happening today on
planet Earth are not the will ofGod. They're the will of the
devil, or they're the will ofsinful, selfish people,

Dave Leake (49:01):
or they're the fallout of a broken world that's
been

Jeff Leake (49:05):
cursed by sin, exactly. But God is working in
the midst of it all, in Hissovereignty, in His
foreknowledge, to be able totake our situations and bring
something good out of it, if wesurrender to Him, and when we
agree with him and we stand withhim, he's able to redeem the
worst moments in our life andbring something good out on the

(49:27):
other side. So, so noteverything. Maybe we need to
rephrase this thing. We say,everything happens for a reason,
like we're part of somedeterministic, fatalistic
universe. No, but, but God isable to bring something good out
of it. Does everything happenfor reason? No, but

Dave Leake (49:42):
God is God. I think God is able that he wants to
bring good things. That's thepoint of Romans. 828, yeah, is
to say that in all things, Godworks for the good of those who
love Him, who but calledaccording to His purpose. So
whatever we've been through,whatever we will go through, God
wants to bring Beauty fromAshes. You know, he wants to. He
wants. To take what's happeningand use it for His glory, and

(50:04):
use it to make us look more likeJesus, and use it to refine our
fire, our faith like gold that'stested by fire. You know what
Peter says? So, yeah,

Jeff Leake (50:16):
so some here's another example of when, when
this phrase shows up. So, youknow, there's a wide receiver in
the end zone, and thequarterback hits him right in
the hands, and he drops thepass, and they lose the game.
And then later he says, Well,you know, everything happens for
a reason. Well, no, you droppedthat pass. But God, can bring

(50:37):
something good out of that, evenif you make a mistake, even if
you mess up, even if you even ifyou don't do what you could have
done. God is not limited in yourchoices, from, from, from the
fatalistic idea that whateveryou decide is what you get. He
actually can take even our worstmistakes, even our worst

(50:58):
mistakes, and bring somethinggood out of it. Let's hold God
so too. Yeah, that's, that's,that's exactly right. So it
doesn't eliminate the fact thatwe make mistakes and do things
that God would never want us todo. It doesn't make eliminate
the idea that we haveweaknesses, and sometimes our
weaknesses show up. It doesn'teliminate the fact that the
devil is trying to destroy us,or that other people do hurtful
things to us, but it means thatin the mess of all of that. God

(51:22):
is able, in his sovereigncapacity, to bring something
good and purposeful and maximizewhatever he can maximize out of
that situation that we'rewalking through that's good. So
what's the what's the newphrase? Not everything happens
for a reason, but what I don'thave a new phrase for you. Let's
come up with one. We kind ofneed to summarize this. I just
think Romans 828, is the bestthing. So we would say we know

(51:43):
that in all things, even in thethings he didn't cause, even in
the things he didn't send, eventhe things he didn't create,
even the things you wish neverhappened, in all those things,
God works for good for those wholove him, not for your
happiness, but for your good.
He's going to bring somethingbeneficial out for those who
love him and are calledaccording to His purpose. And
his purpose, ultimately, is

Dave Leake (52:01):
that we would be conformed to the image of the
Sun, which are Romans 829, says,preach, so that you'll look more
like Jesus, that you'll bringmore of God's Kingdom down to
earth as it is in heaven, andultimately

Jeff Leake (52:11):
that you'll give Him glory, which is where I think
even the determinist one wantsus to end up, right?

Dave Leake (52:16):
Yeah. So, so absolutely, so Is God sovereign?
Yes. Absolutely, 100% totally.
Can he step in at any moment tochange things and alter the
course of history as he will?
Absolutely, he can do whateverhe wants, but because of his
desire for a love relationshipwith people, he's limited
himself to means of allowingpeople to make their own

(52:39):
choices. And someday, one day,I'll set everything right. But
even for the things that hedoesn't directly cost, God uses
all things to bring himselfglory and for our benefit as
well.

Jeff Leake (52:49):
So for those we may have triggered, well,

Dave Leake (52:52):
they're already in the comments, and if we did,
even if you're not triggered,but you just want to leave us a
comment about why we're wrong,feel free to leave comments
there. Will answer you, yeah.
Matt, formerly Calvinist, willbe able to be the funniest face
right now. I also want to justsay, you know, there are so many
people that I respect that havea Calvinist perspective. Yeah,

(53:13):
most of the best scholars of thelast few 100 years have been,
have been Calvinist. Actually,it's funny, most philosophers
who are Christians are Arminian,most because philosophy is how
life actually works. But mostprominent theologians have been
Calvinist. It's a

Jeff Leake (53:30):
theology is not how life actually works. Oh no, it's

Dave Leake (53:32):
but, it's the study, but, but when it comes down to
that, how does this make sensefor you? It's like, oh, it's a
mystery. Like, what? How doesthis actually work for you is
what philosophy does. So like,when it's just the logic part,
they're like that doesn't makeany sense. Yeah, you know. But
anyway, I think we have to havea lot of respect, because
there's some brilliant minds.
Yeah, who are who come from theCalvinist tradition? A lot of
church fathers did as well. Andso this is not meant as any

(53:55):
disrespect on people that comefrom a Calvinist perspective,
but this is our take, especiallyas pastors who are influencing
those in our congregation andthose that are listening. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (54:05):
and this is basically a representation. If
you came to one of us and said,Pastor Jeff or Pastor Dave, this
terrible thing just happened inmy life, like I described,
sitting on the couch withJonathan, and you're wanting our
pastoral answer to you know, whydid God let this happen? You
basically heard, heard our takeon it may not be your fault,

(54:27):
unless you did make a choicethat blew up your life. It's not
God's fault. It's not yourparents fault. John, chapter
nine, Jesus talks about this guyborn blind, and that was the big
debate. Who's at fault here? Isit God? Is it this man, or is it
his parents? None of thosethings are, are the things?
Watch this, yeah. He says, Well,what he actually says is, I'm

(54:50):
the light of the world, and welive in a dark place, and while
I'm here, we have to work tooverturn the darkness. Yeah?
Paraphrase, yeah. That's, that'swhere if we're gonna blame any.
Buddy for why this happened inyour life. Let's blame the
devil. When we blame the devil,let's get busy to do everything
we can do, to work with God inhis sovereignty, to take this
bad thing and turn it intosomething that God can use, and

(55:12):
that that God can use, not justfor your good and for His
purpose, but to give the devil ablack eye, so that more and more
people find Jesus and thereality of His healing and his
hope

Dave Leake (55:22):
that's good, all right. Well, we appreciate you
joining on in this holidayseason to join this conversation
as always. If you have topicsyou want us to cover, feel free
to reach out to us through emailor through comments, whatever
you want to do, and let us knowyour thoughts. We would also so
appreciate the Christmas giftfrom you of a five star
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(55:45):
subscribe. Excuse me, anythingthat you want to do if you just
want to use the charity fromyour heart to help us out as we
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extremely helpful. But hey, wehope you have a an amazing
holiday season. God bless. We'llcatch you guys next time you.