Exposing False Teachers and False Churches

In this thought-provoking episode, pastors Dave and Jeff Leake tackle the challenging topic of false teachers and false churches. 

With biblical wisdom and pastoral insight, they explore:

• How to define a true "false teacher" versus someone who is simply in error or imbalanced
• Examples of false teachings and churches that distort the gospel
• Whether Christians should publicly "call out" leaders they disagree with
• The importance of grounding believers in sound doctrine to recognize deception
• Why the real threat may not be specific teachers, but broader ideological influences

If you're concerned about the rise of false teachings in the church, don't miss this balanced, biblical perspective. 

Discover how to discern truth, protect your faith, and respond with wisdom and grace.

Key Takeaways:

• Understand the difference between doctrinal disagreement and dangerous heresy
• Learn how to identify false teachings that threaten salvation
• Gain wisdom on when and how to address errors in the church
• Be equipped to guard against ideologies that contradict a Christian worldview

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Perhaps you've heard the termfalse teacher or false church

(00:03):
thrown around recently. It'sbecome kind of a trendy blow up
thing on social media. Theseteachers are false because of
these doctrines or thesepractices. These whole churches
that these teachers come out ofare probably false, and maybe
even these worship leaders. Butthere's like, be careful,
because if you're not careful,you're going to be exposed to
some really dangerous heresies.
How do churches address that?

(00:24):
Paul called them out, seeminglyso should pastors and churches
call out anybody they think isfalse? So today we're talking
about exposing false teachersand false churches. Tune in to
hear more.
Hey everybody. Welcome to theAllison Park leadership podcast,
where we have our culture,creating conversations. My name
is Dave, and my name is Jeff,and we're glad you're joining us

(00:44):
today. Of course, we're fatherand son and both on staff at
Allison Park Church andrepresenting different
generations, but still trying tospeak pastorally to different
issues in our culture. And do wehave any shout outs today, Dave,
I know we like to do this at thebeginning one, thank people for
leaving us five star reviews inthe various places you would

(01:05):
listen to this podcast. Yeah,today we want to thank Mike and
Karen Bassel. Okay, so you saytheir name. Thank you for your
five star review. And if any ofyou want to get a shout out
specifically from us, all youhave to do is go leave a five
star review on on Apple podcast.
You can leave it on any reviewplatform, but we usually can't
see your name on an apple. Wecan. So thank you for your kind

(01:25):
review. All right, we're talkingabout today, Dave, today. We're
talking about what makes a falseteacher or a false church, and
how do we handle those? Okay,good. Yeah. Specifically, I
think the question was, whydon't you talk about this more,
right? How come in ministry youdon't call people out who are
false teachers and alert peopleto the dangers that they

(01:48):
represent in the world. Is thiskind of the idea? Yeah, because
it is. It is both an approach toministry question, and then it's
also, how do you define this,and what is a false teacher, and
what are the false teachingsthat are out there today, and
what should be we be concernedabout or aware of?

(02:09):
So where do you want to startwith this?
Dave, what is a false teacher?
Let's ask that question, huh?
What are we what are we worriedabout here? What that people are
concerned about? And I guessthis is also really a big social
media thing, right? Becausesocial media has a way of making
outrage at various things. Oneof the things people are

(02:31):
outraged at is is falseteaching, and false teachers,
and you will hear people inlittle clips,
kind of come at certain ideasand and individuals. Well, often
individuals, and often churches,specifically the most recent,
like trend of this feels likeit's, don't listen to these

(02:52):
worship artists, because, yeah,I saw that come from, which is
weird, because I never reallyeven think of worship artists in
that space of false teachershome? So
why would so? And the idea isbecause the worship music is
being written out of a churchthat is teaching something
false. Therefore the worshipmusic is infected with

(03:15):
potential. Heres, I get, well,you know, this is the weird
thing. It's like, I think it'smore like, I think they're
probably more saying, listeningto their music, while their
music might not be bad, opensyou up to their influence. And
that might, next thing you knowyou'll be listening to the Yeah,
next thing you know, you'regonna be a heretic and fall, you

(03:36):
know, follow from the not tomake light of the concern, but
that is, that is clearly the, Ithink it's way overblown. Okay,
the trend right now, okay, wayoverblown. I'm just revealing my
hand at the beginning, butpeople are like, you know, be
careful about Phil Wickham,because Phil Wickham is
associated with Louie Giglio,and Louie Giglio has these false
teachers at his church. And soit's one corrupting Louis Giglio

(03:59):
has false teachers. Oh, no, isthis actually what you just
quoted? Is actually one? Yeah,it's okay. I I am third hand
quoting, okay, social mediavideo that you're not on social
media says, Oh no, yeah, mybrother Josh, is interested in
this topic. He was like, you seethis one? And this guy said,
this, okay, yeah, I mean, butthat's a pretty common type of

(04:22):
thing, you know, I know producerMatt was in a church, you know,
maybe a year ago, where theywere, like, the whole sermon was
why you shouldn't listen toBethel worship music, okay?
Because they're a false church,yeah. So, so there, I think
worship culture is driving thisAll right, so, so there's a
because of where certain thechurches that produce some of

(04:44):
the predominant songs of the daythat are sung in churches all
over the world, yeah, are underfire. Those churches are under
fire for incorrect or falseteaching. Okay,
yeah, so, so, why don't we just,why don't we just start with.
Biblical background, maybewe can talk about because Paul
talks about false teachersnumber of times. So does so

(05:05):
Messiah Peter, so does Jude, sodoes Jesus technically. Yeah, do
you want to? Do you want tomention any of this? Yeah, so,
alright, so there's, I thinkthere is a difference between
doctrinal disagreements, whichyou can have with somebody who
you look at and view the worldfrom a slightly different
perspective, or view ofScripture from maybe a different
angle, you'd come up with adivergence of opinion on a

(05:29):
particular passage or approachto ministry, right? That's one
difference. Then Paul talksabout in Philippians chapter
chapter one, people who arepreaching the gospel from false
motives, like they were actuallyfound again. Philippians chapter
one, okay, right? So Paul isactually talking about some

(05:49):
heartache, because there weresome people who were coming at
him. So he's in prison, right?
And he and so he can't reallydefend himself. And there were
people that were floating aroundto the various churches where he
had planted churches, and hethen begins to talk about verse

(06:11):
15. It's true that some preachChrist out of envy and rivalry,
but others do so out of othersout of goodwill, the latter do
so out of love, knowing that I'mhere for the defense of the
gospel the former. Preach Christout of selfish ambition, not
sincerely, supposing that theycan stir up trouble for me while
I'm in chains. But what does itmatter? The important thing is,

(06:32):
in every way, whether from falseor true motives, Christ is
preaching because of this. Irejoice So Paul. Paul is
obviously wounded, because theywere out there people, people
out there talking trash on him,right? They were, they were
basically saying, Oh, thatPaul's boring as a teacher. And,
you know, he doesn't have quitethe level of anointing that some

(06:53):
other guys have, and youshouldn't listen to him. You
should listen to us. And theywere preaching Jesus, but they
were preaching him with a in amanner or with a motive that was
toxic, and rather than defendhimself or call these people out
by name, Paul just simply says,Hey, either way, they're
preaching the gospel. So I'm notgoing to get tied up in knots
over the fact that they're doingit from a wrong motive. So

(07:16):
sometimes you can have adoctrinal disagreement with
somebody, but you still see themas a part of the family, and
you're not going to call themout as a false teacher just
because they disagree with you.
And then other times you havepeople who are preaching from a
false place, like their motivesare wrong, or maybe their their
approach is too flashy, or theirpersonality is too flamboyant,
or maybe their style, you think,I don't Sure, not sure I would

(07:37):
handle it that way or look at itthat way. And so sometimes
people grate on us and we makewe might look at them and call
them false because we see someflaw in the way that they
function. False teachers in theNew Testament were those who
were teaching things that, ifpeople believed what they were
saying, would hinder theirability to be saved. Sure. So
let me read some verses fromthose Yeah, all right, so

(08:00):
Matthew seven, Jesus says, Watchout for false prophets. They
come to you in sheep's clothing,but inwardly they are ferocious
wolves. By their fruit, you willrecognize them. Do people pick
grapes from thorn bushes or figsfrom thistles? Likewise, every
good tree bears good fruit, buta bad tree bears bad fruit. A
good tree cannot bear bad fruit,and a bad tree cannot bear good
fruit. Every tree that does notbear good fruit is cut down and

(08:22):
thrown to the fire. Thus, bytheir fruit, you'll recognize
them. Yeah, so there's one fromJesus. So Jesus said it's
possible someone can appear tobe a sheep, but they're really
a, how do I always say thiswrong? A what? Wolf? Wolf? Did I
say that right? Isn't that whatyou call me a wolf? What I was a
Wolf, Wolf. Okay,I say wolf too, but, you know,

(08:44):
shout out to Jordan Claire,yeah, like you guys say Wolf,
Wolf, whatever. Anyway, yes,that's one. Okay. So a wolf
gonnaget stuck every time I say it,
just say it however you want toa wolf, yeah,
has the the intent of using ordevouring the sheep like they're

(09:07):
they're going to take so this iseven just false doctrine. It's
somebody who has hostile motivestowards your people as a pastor
or Shepherd, we want to protectour sheep from somebody who's
going to try to destroy them orteach something to them, or do
something or take money fromthem, or whatever happens to be.
So I guess there's a little bitof a falsity from that. Somebody

(09:29):
who's in tennis is destructionor devouring the body of Christ,
rather than adding the argumentwould be that sometimes they
don't mean to or they don't knowthey are. It's just that they're
just dangerous a bad heart,yeah. So like, Okay, let's look
at Second Corinthians11, Paul talks about in verse
three, you know, just as Eve wasdeceived by the serpents cutting
your minds, but maybe somehowled astray from your insincere

(09:51):
devotion for Christ, for someonecomes to you and preaches a
different Jesus, or preaches toJesus other than the one who
preached.
To me, or if you receive adifferent spirit from the Spirit
you've received, or a differentgospel from the one you you
accepted, you put up with iteasily enough. And then in
verse,in verse 13, he says, For such
people are false prophets,deceitful workers, masquerading

(10:12):
as apostles of Christ. And nowonder for Satan himself,
masquerade masquerades as anangel of light. It is not
surprising that then, if hisservants also masquerade as
servants of righteousness, theirend will be what their actions
deserve. So he's sort of warningpeople be careful of false
teachers who come presentingsomething that seems good, but

(10:34):
it's a different gospel, adifferent spirit, different
Jesus, different Jesus. Because,you know, they're gonna
masquerade, they're gonnapretend like they're angels, but
really they're devils. So sortof the idea here, and I think
all this to say, I think wherethis comes from, a lot of people
now are like, Well, Paul didthis, yeah, or, for instance,
here's one. So one of thebiggest challenges to people's

(10:56):
salvation in the early churchwas the people who came in that
were called Judaizers, whobasically preached that in order
to be a Christian, you had to befully obedient to the Jewish
law, and thatyou couldn't be saved without
being circumcised, because thefirst covenant preceded the
covenant we receive in Christ,and that circumcision was

(11:17):
essential to stepping into toChrist. And then he goes on to
say in Galatians, chapter five,I mean, this is really intense,
right, brothers and sisters, ifI am still preaching
circumcision, then why am Istill being persecuted? In that
case, the offense of the crosshas been abolished. And then he
says this verse 12, Dave, as forthose agitators, I wish they
would go the whole way andemasculate themselves so, I

(11:39):
mean, Paul doesn't pull hispunch here. He's like, you want
to be circumcised. Well, thenjust go ahead and, you know, I
hope you slip and, you know, cutthe whole thing off. Kind of a
thing because of the intensity,because he was basically saying,
You're causing people to misssalvation and go to hell. That's
really, I think, the truedefinition of a false teacher is

(12:00):
that someone who's preachingsomething that would lead people
away from the truth of who Jesusis and bring them into a place
where they would miss theopportunity for a relationship
with God because of that falsitythat's presented to them, it
would lead them away from thetrue gospel, the true Church,
and lead them into somethingthat's going to ultimately

(12:20):
threaten their salvation. Theirsalvation or whatever. Yeah, so
the trend, it's probably noteven I don't know how recent of
a trend this is. I would love toactually know throughout church
history what this has been like,but at least in my lifetime,
especially in the social mediaera, a church trend is for
is for Christians, particularlyif I could say it reformed

(12:44):
Christians that go for peopleoutside of their streams, and
they're like, this person'sfalse, this person's and and
sometimes, like, there arepeople that are clearly teaching
something unbiblical. It's like,well, yeah, I'm not even sure if
that person's really aChristian. So it's probably good
for people to generally knowwhen somebody is leaving the
hallmarks of what Christianitysays. But they're often these

(13:06):
people online are typicallycoming for,
like mainstream people. Thatmainstream people, you mean, so
that where people online arecoming for prominent preachers,
prominent. That's better. Thatare that are maybe popular.
They're popular, and it'squestionable as to whether
there's something really that'sfalse. Okay, so, so I think

(13:27):
there's a difference betweeninaccurate and false. Uh huh,
right. So I guess they mean thesame thing, something that's
interactive is false. But whenwe we use the word a false
teacher from the biblicalperspective, we're thinking of
someone who's teaching verydangerous error and heresy that
could lead you away from thetrue and living Jesus, but you

(13:48):
could have an inaccuratepreacher who's preaching
something maybe they don't fullyunderstand, or maybe they're
imbalanced in some way, butthey're not going to lead people
away from the true Jesus.
They're just simply maybe, maybewe'd even say they're in error,
but they're not necessarily afalse teacher, right? Does that?
Does that a distinguishment thatmakes sense? Say that. Say it

(14:10):
one more time, clear thedifference between an inaccurate
teacher? Yes. Well, I understandthat, but you're saying so, so
if a person is in errorbecause they maybe are
imbalanced in some way, ortalking about something, you
would be like, Yeah, I don'tknow that. I'd say it like that.
I don't know if I'd present itlike that. That's probably going
a little too far to labelsomeone who's in error or

(14:33):
inaccurate as a false teacher. Ithink is slapping a label on
them that says they're at alevel of danger that probably
they're not. They're just simplymaybe not teaching it in the
balanced way. I agree. Yeah,okay, I agree. And never do you
see in the New Testament, Paulor anybody else calling out

(14:54):
someone in erroror imbalanced. Mm.
Yeah, you would, you would hearthem teach the truth to balance
out something that that wasmaybe being practiced
improperly. Well, so, like, Idon't know that Paul calls a lot
of people out by name. That'sone thing that I've because
here's typically what gets said.
Paul did it shouldn't we. Like,Paul was warning people

(15:17):
shouldn't. So who did he callout by name? Paul, yeah, well,
he specifically calls out Demasright, and second, Timothy, but
he doesn't call him as falseteacher. He calls him about
someone that let him down, whoforsook him, right? Yeah, did
harm and yeah right, Demetrius,who wasn't, I don't think, even
a Christian, who did have harm.
Actually, Galatians chapter oneand two. He calls out Simon

(15:40):
Peter, true, true, yeah. AndBarnabas let Yeah, his mentor
for something that he felt waswrong. But I don't think he
labels them as a false teacher.
Yeah. You know that? He simplyjust says, even they were in in
error in in this particularmoment, right? But they, he
doesn't say, Be Simon Peter'snow dangerous, or Barnabas is
dangerous because there's afalse teacher. He just says, you

(16:02):
know, the way this was handledwas wrong, and I'm going to
speak it, you know, I'm going tosay it so again, a difference
between drawing a distinctionbetween the application of truth
and and the practice of ministryand someone being outside of the
faith and leading people astrayinto something that's dangerous.
I think that's, that's, that'swhere, too quickly, are people

(16:25):
who are in this camp of callingpeople out, they will call them
false teachers when they'rereally just maybe imbalanced,
yeah, or in error. So let me,let's, let's segment this
conversation now, because, ohwell, we can make sure we're
tracking with where we want togo. All right, so we're starting
with what's a false teacher. Iwant to hit what's a false
church as well.

(16:47):
Josh's question for you is, whydon't you, Jeff, call them out
from the pulpit or on a podcast,if that's what Paul did, and
then we'll eventually get to,how do you shepherd towards
right things or against thewrong things. But let's, let's
stick with false teacher orfalse church. Okay, so what
would a false church be?

(17:10):
A cult? Basically, probablyright. I guess it's just a cult.
We're not really in the habit.
You know, I find cult falsechurch, uh, something that spins
off from Christianity that'sclearly a false or distorted
version of Christian. Okay, so,example, I was just at dinner. I
was at an event in Washington,DC, of

(17:32):
multi faith dinner. It was, youknow, represented by people of
various faiths all workingtogether to to work for peace
and religious freedom around theworld. And I was sitting next to
the kindest, most wonderfulpeople in the world who were
Mormon Okay, the Mormon Churchbelieves in Jesus, but they
would define Jesus as completelydifferent from the way that

(17:56):
the Bible would define him,right? So
Mormonism while sharing the samemorality as Christianity, it
doesn't share the same doctrineof Jesus as Christianity, and
they would not point to Jesus asthe Savior in the same way that
historic Christianity would.
Sure. So would we would callMormonism a false church. Yes,
they would be really amazing,wonderful people. I'm not in any

(18:18):
way disparaging them as humanbeings. They're very, very kind
and again, aligned with a lot ofChristian morality, but seeing
Jesus from a differentperspective Joe's witness would
be like that, correctperspective? Well, no, no, so
that would be false, right? Soyou can't be a Christian and be
a Mormon at the same time. Now,right? To truly follow the Jesus
that the Bible defines as thepathway to salvation, right,

(18:42):
right? And we won't go down thepath of what Mormonism is,
because I think we address thisin another podcast, sort of
enough. So that would probablybe a false church. I guess there
could be churches. So there wassome churches a couple years
ago. I can't remember the nameof the pastor now, he had been a
prosperity gospel preacher forquite some time, and he shifted

(19:05):
into a doctrine of what we wouldcall universalism, universalism,
which basically says, everyonegoes to heaven, all paths lead
to the same place. There is noconsequence for sin, because
everybody who believes, as longas you sincerely believe, you
get there, whether you believein Jesus or some other Buddha or
some other God. So he actuallywas leading a church that you

(19:28):
would consider a biblicalchurch, and he started teaching
something in denial of biblicaltruth. So I guess technically,
his independent congregationmoved from
preaching the gospel, eventhough it was in an imbalanced
way, to universalism,universalism would be equally a

(19:49):
false teaching and false idea.
Yeah, technically, the earlyJudaizers probably had organized
congregations that believed inorder to get saved, you had to
i.
Um, you know, practice all theJewish laws as well. You can't,
couldn't be saved unless you didboth. Paul would have said,
That's a false church, right? Sowould be anything that doesn't

(20:10):
align with the, you know, viewof the authority of the Bible
and the person of Jesus Christ,and who he is in the pathway to
salvation. Would all, would allbe part of what makes a true
church versus a false church.
But these kind of critics on onthe internet, when they call out
Bethel or elevation, they'realso churches too. They see them
on the internet, but they'realso churches. Okay, what do you

(20:31):
mean? There are not just peopleon the internet. These are
pastors in churches who takethese stances that then people
who are wanting to go viral onthe internet will take the same
stances. So I'm not saying likeevery church, like from any
particular denomination ormovement is saying these things,
but I'm saying it's not justlike, these are internet trolls,
okay? And they're a vocalminority. That's name and name.

(20:54):
Are you ready? Yeah. So JohnMacArthur does this a lot. John
MacArthur, yeah, yeah. So hewould call out people by name
and call them false teachers andfalse prophets, and in so doing,
separate himself, he wouldbasically say this, Pastor,
Bethel, whatever, is soimbalanced in their approach to
the gospel that they're not partof the true Church, and we would

(21:15):
have to brand them as outside ofthe body of Christ, and
Therefore we should listen tothem because they're dangerous,
right? And isn't that true? Yep,okay. And then people mimicking
that, we might say that aboutall Pentecostals. I mean, he's
pretty Yeah, he might say thatabout us. He's radical, yeah, so
he's listening to our podcast.
So I actually think that is verydangerous. Yeah, I agree to

(21:36):
divide the church over thingsthat are not essential
doctrines. Is actuallydangerous, agreed? I'm not
calling John MacArthur a falseteacher. I'm just saying that
particular idea is not good forthe body of Christ because it
brings division where thereshould be unity, right? It's not
that we again, like we saidabout politics, I think we use
this statement in one of ourrecent podcasts. Unity is not

(21:57):
uniformity. You know, we canagree to get disagree on certain
ideas and still be unified inour in the central beliefs of
what Christianity represents.
But I think we quoted this too,Dave. I don't remember what we
were kind of talking about thissubject a couple of podcasts
ago, not specifically from theangle of false teachers, but we
we quoted, is it? Yeah, youremember this statement, where

(22:19):
it's in essentials, there'sunity in non essentials, there's
liberty in all things, there'scharity, right? So we would have
to define, in order to definewhat is a false church, what is
a false teacher, we'd have todefine what are the essential
truths of Christianity, yeah,and once you're outside of the
essential truths ofChristianity, then you are
outside of the true church. Andwe would then said, Well, that's

(22:41):
false. Even still, with falseteachers, we love them, right?
We don't want to, we don't wantto create hostility. But at the
same time, what Paul did, whatJesus did, is you drive through
the line and say, Be carefulover here, because this is, this
is a dangerous ideology thatcould lead you away from the
truth. Yeah, right. So inessentials, there is unity. In

(23:04):
non essentials, there's liberty,which means you have a freedom
to disagree about different Imean, what are the things that
are non essentials of people?
Predestination, free will. Youknow what you know? Calvinism
versus Arminianism, charismatic,gifting versus sensationalism,

(23:25):
which you say the gifts wouldhave ceased these you can be in
the body of Christ and be a partof the family of God,
prosperity, teaching to acertain degree versus non
prosperity. Teaching, you know,you the you still part of the
family of God, maybe imbalancedin some way. You know, you say
reformed Christianity, whichtends to be a bit too

(23:46):
argumentative versus nonreformed, right? You know? So
you have, you have these varioustribes within the body of
Christ. And anytime we start totake the scalpel and cut out a
section of the Body of Christbecause of a doctoral
disagreement. That's not anessential Doctor doctoral
disagreement. I think thenthat's when we're taking this
too far. So essential, just todefine it one more time, is the

(24:10):
core doctrine of the Gospelitself. Yes, that is what's
necessary for salvation andbelief in Jesus. Yeah, we would
look at the ancient creeds, theapostle creed, the Nicene Creed,
things that state what thegospel is. Right? We believe in
God the Father. We believe inChrist the Son. We believe He
died on the cross for our sin.
We believe he rose from thegrave. We believe in the Holy
Spirit. We believe salvationcomes only by faith and what

(24:32):
Jesus Christ did for us on thecross in his resurrection, we
believe he's coming back again.
You know, we believe the Bibleis the Word of God and has
authority for how we live andwhat we practice, these would
probably represent a lot of thecore ID ideas of what is
essential Christianity, agreed.
Yeah, some of the other thingsabout it's not that they're
unimportant. No, they'reimportant, very important.

(24:54):
They're just not so you can goto heaven and believe.
Differently on the on the levelof faith necessary for healing,
or whether healing is evenpossible for today, right? So
there are, there are differentdisagreements about about
doctrinal approaches andmethodologies that we need

(25:17):
liberty for. Yeah, and so let'sgo to the question you asked
Dave, why don't I call them outon this podcast, or call them
out in ina message right before that? Can
we I there's still another partI want to hit so talking about
this, this idea of be carefulwho you have influence with,
because if they're associatedwith said person who then is

(25:39):
associated with other saidperson. And this person said
this thing. Like, to me, youknow that that verse you read
earlier, where, where Paul is,like,
I think I have this pulled up,is this Philippians, one where
he talks about people that'sbeing preached, yeah, yeah. 115
he says it's true that somepeople preach the preach Christ

(26:00):
out of envy and rivalry, othersout of goodwill. 18, but what
does it matter? The importantthing is that, in every way,
whether false matter to trueChrist is preached. To me, it's
like if, if, if a song ispreaching correct doctrine, wow.
What's the big deal? Yeah, likeeven if, even if it's coming
from someone that maybe isn'tliving right or they're

(26:21):
associated with, let's just saythey're associated with a Mormon
like, like, what's the chosenwho, you know? Like, that whole
there's controversy because,like, Mormons are influencing
it. Or, do you know, Mormoncamera? Yeah, it's like, so it's
like, oh, so the whole thing isdistorted. Like, to me, I'm
like, if, if it is accurate, andif it's not saying anything

(26:42):
blasphemous or false, what's,what's the big deal? Yeah. Okay,
let me, let me get to get to avery specific example with this,
with a song. Because thisprobably 15 years ago, maybe
longer, I don't know, Dave,there was a song that came out
called healer. I believe you'remy healer. Yeah, yeah. I believe
you know. Okay, great song. It'sa confession of faith that
believes Jesus Christ is thehealer of our bodies. Turned out

(27:04):
so this was produced andrecorded at Hillsong,
not by a hill Song Artist, by bya guest artist who came and sang
with the Hillsong team. And itwas the right of the song. And
before he did, he told the storyabout how he was sick and God
healed him. And it turned outthat that whole thing was was a

(27:24):
lie. He was never sick. Heactually pretended to be sick.
He He actually wore an oxygentube up his nose, yeah, and
told the story about how so hesold it like it wasn't just he
lied. He was seen on stagewearing an oxygen tear, right?
And then eventually he, youknow, declared he was healed. So

(27:46):
he he sold his sickness so thathe could sell his healing, so
that he could sell his song.
Yeah, right, okay, terriblestuff, yeah. So I remember we
had started singing that song,and then the scandal came out,
and I was like, oh, man, I lovedthat song. I hate that we can't
sing it anymore. And then Ithought, well, the song isn't
bad. The song has good truth init. It came from a bad place in

(28:07):
this guy's life. But thatdoesn't necessarily make it an
invaluable wizard. We still singit, yeah, well, we don't still
sing it on occasion. Okay, okay,it's an oldie, but there might
be an occasion we'd bring itback. Sure, sure, during a
certain kind of ministry notbanned from our No, no, we
didn't say. This was writtenduring a time

(28:30):
the song is true. There's noerror in the song, yeah. So the
other thing that I would saythat tends to be the case with
false teachers and falsechurches is they tend to be
charismatic, like either theirprosperity or the charismatic
are the two two sides thatusually get aimed at. And I can
understand the concern. So youknow, you're not saying that

(28:53):
they are false teachers, butyou're saying the angry crowd of
preachers who calls out otherchurches and Christians as false
teachers. You said one tends tofit into the reformed camp, and
the people they call out tend tofit into the charismatic camp,
yeah, or the prosperity gospel,yeah. They're labeled as that,
right? They're labeled as someform of and the problem is, a

(29:14):
lot of times what you hear beingsaid from a critical standpoint
can be true. Like they mayactually say this is weird, this
is off, this is imbalanced. Thisis this is taking certain truths
too far. If you lived in that,it probably been unhealthy for
you spiritually. And they, theymay be correct in all of that.
That doesn't make somebody afalse teacher. Actually, I think

(29:36):
the way to go and let me get tothe question that was posed
through Josh. I think someoneasked Josh this question, and he
posed it through to us, whydon't you call people out who
have who preach inaccuratethings or imbalance things?
And I think the the answer tothat is, you know, when they
train the FBI to recognizecounterfeit bills, they don't

(29:58):
concentrate on showing.
Counterfeit bills, they havethem concentrate on studying the
real deal. So they study realbills that are legitimate, so
that when they see somethingthat doesn't match, that they
know that it's false. I actuallythink that's the better method.
With doctrine, you teach good,sound, healthy, balanced,

(30:19):
effective doctrine, and youexpose your people to that to
such a degree that once theyhear something that doesn't
resemble that, they are trainedin their own ability to
recognize that it's off. Nowthere is, I'll just say, you can
grow a church by criticizingother pastors. If you can
identify who the enemy is andpreach against that enemy all

(30:40):
the time. You will draw to yourpeople yours. You will draw
people to yourself that arelooking for a cause or looking
for a way to feel superior.
Yeah. And people do thispolitically. They will preach
against the other sidepolitically. Because if you, if
you like, if you throw down, letme just tell you about so and so
who said this and these peopleare evil. You will find a

(31:01):
following every time you preachthat way, that isn't healthy,
and that is actually not howJesus preached, or how Paul, you
know, led his churchesconstantly, where it's an us
versus them. And we're the oneswho have the truth and they
don't have it, and we're theones that are practicing this
properly. They're not practicingit properly. And so you need to

(31:22):
come over here with us, and ifyou happen to listen, it's a way
to protect your ministry fromrivals, and it's a way to draw
people to you and feel glued toyou because they feel like you
have some kind of corner ontruth, and you're protecting
them from the bad, evilpreachers that are out there,
and actually you can grow alarge ministry by identifying an

(31:42):
enemy and railing at them. Idon't think that's healthy. I
don't think that produceshealthy Christ followers.
I actually think it can producearrogance. It's also not godly.
I don't even think it's in Idon't even think that's the way
Paul handled things. It's not inthe Word of God. It's not
actually a real model that we'refollowing. And specifically, I

(32:05):
think it comes from a mistake ofan overemphasis on beliefs and
an under emphasis on actuallifestyle or intimacy with God.
Like there's this, you know,there's this
thought out there that, like,the deeper somebody understands
theology, the more close to Godthey are. That's actually not
true at all. No, Knowledge puffsup. Yeah, love edifies. That's

(32:25):
what First Corinthians says. Andso the more you think you have
more knowledge or purerknowledge than others, the more
you live in pride, and the moreyou recognize that you could be
wrong and that you need otherpeople who have a different way
of looking at things than you,the more you end up in a humble
place? Yeah, I actually thinkthat the internet voices like or

(32:45):
the voices that are callingpeople out, the focus is not,
doesn't seem to be, how do Ilovingly bring correction? It's
like, there there's a labellike, that person's false, and
the assumption is I know theirmotives, which are also false.
So it almost seems to be like,what's the use? And even trying
to, you know, bring this otherbeliever back in love, it's more

(33:08):
like, I'm gonna label them thatway. Anybody who sees me can
decide that they're bad, I'mgood, they're gonna come under
my it's like, it feels like it'sstealing, like if we're all
unified as the body of Christ,and somebody starts to air like
the only way that you can reallyknow they're actually false,
unless they're teaching againstJesus, as if they repeatedly
refuse any type of correction,and they're going outside of

(33:31):
what the the essentials are,yeah, but it's just like people
feel casual, casual, that theycan just blast somebody, yeah,
yeah. And, you know, I thinkthat also steps out of the realm
of how Jesus recommends that wehandle error and offense. You
know Matthew 18, he says, ifyou, if you, you have something,
you find your brother has donesomething wrong,

(33:52):
or, we could say, teachessomething wrong. You owe it to
that brother to confront himpersonally and privately before
you would go public with it,right? And so you have to go
there first. So this, this is adelicate one, Dave, I'm going to
bring it up, but so dr, MichaelBrown is a Bible teacher.
He's He's a Messianic Jew, buthe's also an amazing theologian.

(34:14):
He actually, just recently, isgoing through his own little
personal scandal. That's why Isaid this is sensitive. But he
oftentimes, as a theologian,will call out false teaching,
and I've watched a number of hisvideos where he's done this for
for, for instance, we did apodcast a number of years ago
based on Andy Stanley's bookwhere he talks about the role of

(34:36):
the Old Testament versus therole of the New Testament. And
what is that book calledremember something?
Yeah. Anyway, so he felt thatAndy had misrepresented
scripture, and so rather thanjust going online and doing
YouTube clip about Andy's book,he called Andy, and he said, Can

(34:57):
we talk? And they talkpersonally. And.
He said, can we bring thisconversation into irresistible?
Okay, irresistible. Can we bringthis conversation into a
podcast? And so he interviewedhim, and they talked about their
disagreement in a public way andtried to resolve it that was
honorable. So Michael felt likeAndy's book talked about the

(35:18):
scripture in such a way that wasimproper. Okay? That could be
false teaching. But rather thanjust blowing it up online, he
called Andy and made it apersonal conversation first, and
handled it with both humilityand dignity. And then they had a
conversation, and they werecloser than, you know, closer in
their thought than what maybe itappeared at the outset. It

(35:39):
actually had more agreement thandisagreement over some things.
Yeah. Then Andy had some, someother posts that he had made
about his view of sexuality, andMichael Brown did the same
thing. We need to talk aboutthis. So they had a conversation
again about it, right? So Ibelieve so yeah, didn't bring
anything. I don't think it did.
It wasn't as resolved, because Ithink Andy still pretty vague on

(36:00):
his, on his, you know, ideasabout that.
So which is which, which I wouldsay based upon some of the
things I've heard Andy say, I'vebeen a huge Andy Stanley fan,
but I wouldn't call him a falseteacher, even though, right now
I'm confused about his views onthings I would just probably say
to people, oh, be a littlecareful, like, rather than me

(36:23):
call him calling him, I was,yeah, I heard some things over
there. Maybe if someone came tome and directly said, What do
you think about ex pastor who'sa prosperity teacher? I might
say, yeah, be a little carefulthere. I'm not going to call
them out and brand them as falseteacher, but I might say, I have
some concerns about these threethings I've heard them say, and
I'm not sure where they'reheaded with this yet, but I
would probably just really keepyour antennas up when you're

(36:45):
listening to that teaching,because there are some things
that are concerning to me. Ifand publicly started teaching
against Christian sexuality,biblical Christian sexuality,
what would we do? That's a goodquestion. What would we do? I i
probably would ignore itand just simply not so I used to
recommend his resources, and,you know, some of his books and

(37:08):
things like, I probably wouldjust simply say, okay, he's now
left what I think isbiblical perspectives on an
important issue of our day, anduntil I know he's returned, I'm
just going to avoid thematerials that I probably would
have leveraged and used before.

(37:29):
I don't know that it's my placeto call them out, because I'm
not as covering, and I don'treally have a position in the
church world where it's my jobto police things like that, and
so I don't know what whatpurpose it serves for Jeff Leake
at a local Church in Pittsburgh,to call out Andy Stanley over
something like, why would I needto do that? And what value would

(37:51):
it add to the world? Aren't yousteering people away from wrong
influence? I think most peoplein my church would never know he
existed, because he's a localchurch and pastor in Atlanta.
What about a big name personthat everybody listens to? Who
is that anymore? I don't evenknow that there are such. Let's
say I actually was teaching. SayCraig Groeschel. Let's a lot of

(38:12):
these people do people know whoGreg Groeschel is? Pastors know
Craig Groeschel, but I don'tknow that people every so this
was interesting, Dave, we have ayoung class for a PLA this year
there. So there a lot of themare just coming out of high
school, which is, which is,normally, we have a little bit
more of a mix. Always a goodgroup coming out of high school,
but then we have others as well.
And I asked the question thisweek, I said, because we were

(38:34):
talking about different stylesof preaching, and I was like,
so, you know, you can't use theapproach that I just presented
and be TD Jakes. And I said, Howmany of you love TD Jakes? And
no one responded. And I waslike, How many of you know who
TD Jakes is? And one kid raisedhis hand. I was like, No way.
Well, you got to hear TD Jakes,so I played a whole video of
him. And then I said, Well, whoelse do you listen to? They

(38:56):
didn't have anybody. Like, I'mnot sure that the world, the
world is now segmented intocategories, whereas every it
used to be that people knew,like, here are the top preachers
that are out there. Yeah, but Idon't know that that's true
anymore. I don't know that thatthere is seasoned Christians
probably know who Bill Johnsonis, who TD Jakes, or who Craig
Groeschel is, who Andy Stanley.

(39:18):
I'm not sure how many people inour world would come to a church
like Allison Park and even knowwho those names are. Maybe
that's why they go after worshipmusic, because you would know
those you would exactly and soso to as a pastor, to call out
another pastor who's in adifferent city when I don't hold
a governance position in adenomination or organization or

(39:41):
a role in their life. I don'tknow what what purpose that
serves. I think preaching thetruth of the gospel in a
balanced way from the Word ofGod, where I'm discipling people
by showing them the real bills,not the counterfeit ones all the
time, is the way that that realdisciples are made, and then
when they hear some.
Then it's like, that doesn'tsound like anything I've heard

(40:02):
before. Hopefully they've seenthe truth clearly enough that
they can recognize things thatare false. I actually think that
the biggest threats to thechurch aren't false teachers.
No, it's It's other world views,totally it's New Age ideas. It's
humanism. Humanism is the mainone, probably in America. Yeah,

(40:23):
it's, it's, you know, demonicactivity on the internet. It's,
that's where the real concernis. It's, it's not with someone
who's teaching an imbalancedview of the role of faith in
healing the sick that I'mworried about.
I'm not even really worried toomuch about where Andy Stanley
is. He hasn't really backed awayfrom biblical ideas of Christian

(40:44):
sexuality. He's just been alittle fuzzy on it. So I'm not
why would I spend my timecalling out something that isn't
the primary danger in ourculture, which is the fact that
most people are biblicallyilliterate. They they don't know
the difference between truth anderror because they haven't been
exposed to the Scripture enough.
So for me to bring out a nuanceof theology, to call it a false
teacher, I'm trying to just getpeople into the into the meat of

(41:05):
the word, so that they canreally grow up in Christ. Do you
feel like people that have beenin the church aren't exposed to
the word enough? Are you talkingabout people that aren't
Christians? I think both. So isthat a fault of the church?
Like, like, what? What Whatwould it take to expose people
to the word enough to ask?
That's a really good question.
We have the Bible more availableto us than ever before. Yeah,

(41:26):
devices, it's you can watchgreat teaching. We have actually
a subscription on, you know, atAllison Park Church to right now
media where you can listen tosome of the best Bible teachers
out there. You know, there'sChristian television, there's
devotionals in the YouVersionapp, where you can hear people
who talk about, I actually didtwo of them. They're going to go
on you version. I don't if youknow this, Dave, but church

(41:48):
multiplication network asked meto do a series of video
teachings and devotionals forchurch planters and their church
plantings. Great. Yeah, that. SoI did a whole one out of the
book of Acts and one out ofPhilippians, and it'll go on you
version and people can at theirfingertips. Good, good, good.
Teaching exposure to God's word.

(42:08):
You can actually have it read toyou through the audio version of
the Bible. Usually do. Yeah,yeah. So people have more of
their fingertips than they everdid before, but probably aren't
necessarily exposing themselvesto the truth of the Scripture
like they could. You would thinkwe would be raising scholars in
the Bible because of itsavailability, but I think it's
just like anything else. It'sone of the most important things

(42:29):
you can do to grow up in yourfaith, but people just neglect
it because they're distracted byso many other things. And so the
big worry isn't the falseteacher, it's the fact that we
aren't exposing people to habitsand patterns and resources that
make them strong in their ownfaith, and that's probably the
biggest challenge and need andand then to protect from

(42:51):
where the real predators are,which are things that are coming
to attack the authority of theScripture, our identity in
Christ, the centrality of whoJesus is, right? So those that
there, we have so much in theworld that's coming at those
things, that's where the dangerhappens to be. So two, I have
two directions I could go.
Let's, let's stick with thisquestion, though, this, this

(43:13):
theoretical question, Was thereever a time in your lifetime
when churches did a really goodjob of, I think it was Tim
Keller who talked about, like,the inoculation
of theology against other worldview diseases. He was talking
about catechisms, yeah, andCatholicism. How that like, it's

(43:34):
like, here's how youdifferentiate, differentiate
between this and falseChristianity. Whatever he was
talking about, modern catechismsagainst humanism and other
worldviews that don't line upChristianity. But was there ever
a time in your life when youfeel like the church exposed
Christians to the Bible wellenough that, in general, that
wasn't the same kind of issue?
Or has that always been anissue? I can speak of my

(43:55):
upbringing, that I think I wasexposed to a lot of Bible and
was rooted into some things, notthrough catechisms, but through
the amount of time we spend inchurch. Like as a as as a five
year old, I was in church,Sunday morning and Sunday night,
and I was playing with myMatchbox cars on Sunday night in
a service, but I heard my andthen sometimes Wednesdays and
then extra services, like wewere in we were in person in

(44:19):
church so often that peopleheard pastors like my father
taught out of so much of theScripture and the messages were
long. They weren't 30 minutes,they were 45 to an hour. Yeah.
So I mean you you're in enoughservices, in enough Bible
classes that you get exposed toit, and now, depending upon the

(44:42):
pastor that you had and how muchthey taught of the full counsel
of God versus maybe their petpet peeve scriptures. But if
they were teaching youexpository throughout the
scriptures, and they wereexposing you to various
doctrines and truths, it it kindof sunk in, like it, I so.
It up. And so for me, I think II grew up in an era where I felt

(45:05):
greatly exposed to truth. Infact, my I remember when my dad,
he was over here at Allison Parkand preaching, and he had a
technique in his communicationstyle where he would say things
like he would be quoting ascripture where say, Bless the
Lord, oh my soul, and then hewould say, finish the verse with
me, because he expected peopleto know the verse, And when he

(45:26):
tried that a few years ago, noone knew the verse, right? So
it's like people stopped havingthe same exposure because they
weren't spending as much time inin in church. So so, so maybe
the catechisms, from an ancientperspective, did that. But I
would say a lot of the lot of myfriends I grew up with who were

(45:48):
Catholic, who probably had thecatechisms memorized from their
CCD days, I don't know that theyknew what it meant. No, well, I
think he was saying that was aso the word inoculation is,
comes from, like, vaccines.
You'd get vaccinated againstthat way, if you experience it
doesn't, it doesn't, you know,you don't contract them in
deadly he was talking about howthat was given

(46:12):
for other against other sects ofChristianity, yeah, maybe like
in the early, you know, four or500
ad, yeah, before. So for, formany, many generations,
Christians did not have accessto the Bible or or they were
illiterate, couldn't read,right? So the memory memorized
catechisms was the only way forthem, or the songs that they

(46:36):
would sing, which would havetheology in them, yeah, right,
were the ways that they got goodideas sort of embedded into who
they were, because they wouldrepeat those things, right? So
now that's less necessary,because we have biblical we have
the Bible at our fingertips. Wehave good theological songs that
flood Spotify, like, I mean goodtheology and biblical exposure.

(47:01):
I mean, you can, you can getthat everywhere. What we're
battling with as pastors is, howdo we take the abundance of good
worship music and great Bibleteaching and biblical, you know,
apps that you can and get peopleinto the habit and play, and get
them to have the value for thetruth of God's word enough to

(47:22):
where they start to grow up init. Well, I think it's also
like, how do you the this is awhole nother podcast topic,
probably. But the question soyou talked about, you're like,
the reason people were exposedthe Word of God so much is
because they were in church somuch we live in, like, a fast
food, you know, sound by YouTubeclip, yeah, reels, you know, you

(47:44):
got 12 seconds, sort of aculture
where the priority is more allthe different family events. And
I might be able to make churchthree times a month, maybe twice
a month. So it's like, like, Isit, is it that the church should
continue to adapt with theculture where we're in church

(48:04):
less and less and we have moresound by resources, or do we
need to somehow come back? Isthat possible? Even I don't know
to you know, like we'reobviously what we're doing right
here is one way to address that.
Yeah. SoI actually think that the
podcast we're doingand the feedback we get from
people is that we're able to gointo deeper biblical ideas here
when a longer period of time ina conversational way that makes

(48:27):
the people who are hungry formore be able to really dive into
some things that maybe wecouldn't cover in a weekend
motivational message, right? Buthow do we do that? That that is,
that is the conundrum, right?
That's the discipleship questionof our generation, is, how do we
get people into the truth ofGod's word so that the

(48:48):
counterfeit is not a threat orthe or the, you know, perilous,
you know, dangers of true, falseworldviews don't encroach upon
us and we fall for them. So letme, let me list some examples of
of these kinds of things thatmaybe expose people to danger of
false teaching, because they'renot as exposed. I think we have

(49:10):
gone through at Allison ParkChurch over the last year a real
crucible of trying to make sureour Gospel messages are fully
complete to where, when we, whenyou preach the gospel, it's,
it's the story of Jesus comingto the earth. You know, yeah,
like living and then beingcrucified and dying and rising
again. The need for repentance.
You know that while salvation isfree, it requires a complete

(49:30):
exchange of your rights andpreferences for God's life. It's
a so the whole turning because Ithink sometimes, like, we would
have a cost message that'spositive and it's it's just not
well, maybe for the sake of thefact that there wasn't that much
time left in the Yeah, exactlyright. We would, we would
summarize the gospel, yeah,rather than preach it in its

(49:51):
complete you want to be madeaware of God, if you want to
confess your sins, you know,yeah, you can have salvation, a
new life and purpose for yourlife. So we have been real.
Working hard to say every timewe present the gospel, getting
right with God involves turningfrom your sin, yeah, right,
repenting, believing in Jesus asthe Son of God who died on the

(50:11):
cross for He rose from thegrave, yeah? And that when you
do, He will give you new life.
And that not just promises youheaven, yeah, but it brings you
into God's family, and it bringsyou into a place of spiritual
fooling. You make youspiritually alive. And if you're
ready for that, you want tosurrender your life to Jesus,
right? And you're ready to turnfrom your old life, this is your
opportunity to do so, to leadingpeople to a full and accurate
decision. So they're not justbuying fire insurance or adding

(50:33):
God into their life as one oftheir gods and pursuits, but it
is a full surrender moment,believing in the person of Jesus
Christ, and actually David's.
This is true and true to all ofour campuses when we've been
preaching the fuller gospel, notnot that it's been less full,
but not and not a summarized,quick version, but taking our
time to present that we'veactually seen more people

(50:53):
respond, yeah. And I think itprobably leads to more
informed decision makingprocesses, because if it's if,
when it's when there's when it'ssummarized, sometimes the
feeling is there's lessrequired. It's like, Oh, I'll
sign up for that. I'll add thatto my life. Yeah, sure. Why not?
Like, that's great. I do needthat. I get a bumper stickers or
a t shirt with, yeah? Now it'slike, this is a pretty serious

(51:15):
decision where you're going toactually have to affect your
life in a big way. Yeah. It'slike, do I want to make, make
that move. And then on top ofthat, we have been trying to
preach and teach in such a waythat deals with the hard truths.
Yeah, right, right, that wearen't skipping over just to
say, these truths will make yourlife better. This will help your
marriage be better. This willhelp you be a better person and

(51:35):
make more money, or whatever.
Where we're saying, you know,Jesus said, take up your cross
and follow me. Or he said,unless you eat my blood, eat my
flesh and drink my blood, youcan't be one of my disciples,
like we've been hitting theharder passages, which brings
people into reality of what thisreally is that they're a part
of, so that they're not justhere as a motivational self help
community, right? But this is acommunity of people who are

(51:56):
laying down their lives forJesus, or moral people who want
to grow in their leadership,right? Which is another
accusation that maybe is fairfrom time to time. So okay, so
we're heading harder truths.
We're trying to be lessmicrowaved with our gospel
presentation, but I'm just like,what else? I guess this is the
question that needs to beexpanded on for solutions. I'm

(52:18):
not sure that we can answer thisjust in a podcast, especially at
the end of, well, I think whatwe're doing right now where we
ask the question of, so whatshould be our view of politics,
or how should we handlequestions about heaven and hell?
Yeah, but you're not because weare. We are going though, okay,
I'm saying in terms of, in termsof the Body of Christ being in a
place of where you're you'retogether, worshiping and

(52:43):
studying together, andfellowshipping and everything.
There's probably, I guess I'msaying, so a podcast is a way to
shoot out information for thosethat are hungry. But what about
your average person that's notgoing all the way to listen to
the podcast like you have thetop I don't know. Let's say 50%
or 20% that are listening to thepodcast record. What about your

(53:03):
average person? How do we unmicrowave Christianity to where
somebody has what they wouldneed? I think the goal is having
I don't know that we are incontrol of that. Are we was? I
don't know. So here's, here'swhat I actually believe, if
someone is truly hungry for it,yeah, they can get it. They can
get it. There's enough out therefor even if they're not hungry
for it. I think maybe we have topray in

(53:27):
a work of the Holy Spirit thatcreates a hunger and a thirst
for the presence of God, for theWord of God, for a relationship
with God. When, when the hungeris there, the resources are
abundant, like we are notlacking in resources. Yeah, if
you want, if you want, if youwant experiences, if you want

(53:48):
churches, if you want input, ifyou want teaching, if you you
want exposure to God's word.
There is not a lack of thatavailability in our world today,
but there is a lack of hunger.
If you try to shove resources toa person that doesn't want them,
nothing works. So you say, wouldpeople come out to more stuff if

(54:10):
we plan more stuff,if they were not if they were
hungry? Yeah, right, right. So,but just scheduling events when
there's not a hunger, that's arecipe for failure, but when
real revival does happen,because this is what we talked
about in our recent podcast. Ifthe if the country is headed
towards spiritual awakening,there will be such hunger that
that we will have to meet thedemand, yeah, by providing more.

(54:31):
But I actually don't think soundbiblical teaching or
availability of the scripturesor materials that will help you
grow. I don't think we have anylack of that in our world, but
what and if a person so there'sone particular person I'm
thinking of right now, Dave. Shehas recently come to Jesus, and

(54:52):
she is devouring everything shecan, everything we produce,
every event that we have, everyspec.
Of information that comes out,she devours it. She's growing
like crazy. But it isn't becausethe material got better, or the
preaching got better, or thegroups got better. It's because
she's just absolutely wantseverything that God has to give

(55:14):
her. Have you have a hungryperson?
Yeah, so I think it's stokingthe hunger, praying for that to
start, and then, and then, Ithink there is availability for
for what people need. So is ouris our real problem? Less, false
teaching, and more, there's notenough spiritual hunger that

(55:35):
allows people to have, have themy opinion, is the great problem
is the fact that we live in aworld where there's predator
worldviews out there that aretrying to destroy people's
lives. Okay? I don't think it'sthe imbalance teaching of a
couple of churches that have abig following. Yeah, I don't
think that's the I agree, Iagree. I think, I think what's

(55:57):
the right word, syncretism we'vetalked about before, where it's
you incorporate other religiousviews into Christianity. In this
case, the religious views we'retalking about are social
ideologies. They are, they areAmerican
morality, self centered Americanmorality. It's being a good
person, whatever you define thatas. It's often along political

(56:19):
lines, manifesting things. It's,yeah, exactly. It's, you know,
positive energy, positiveenergy. It's the astrology, it's
the crystals, it's the psychics,it's the but sometimes it's the
gender thing that sometimes it'sbuilding your identity around
your mental health, right? It'swho the villain is, who's to
blame? CEO, politics or liberalsor right? President, this

(56:40):
character, there's there'sideologies that swallow you,
yeah, right, that are actually,that are actually staunchly
opposed to Christian worldviews.
But it's easy to miss thatbecause mainstream, I have
mainstream, loud voices on theinternet, be they pastors or
just social media, people mixthem together, right? And so I
the real threat is in JoelOsteen, right? Like he gets

(57:02):
blamed for a lot of stuff. Thereal threat is this other stuff
that's going on and the lack ofspiritual hunger. Yeah, I agree,
yeah, so and so therefore wedon't call people out, because
that's not really where theissues are, in my opinion, and
because there's a better way todeal with that. And I think we
have started to call out thedemonic ideologies, if you will.

(57:25):
Yeah, you know, a podcastepisode on some of that, what
are the ideologies that areopposed to Jesus, that are very
Yeah, because a lot of peopleare caught into the ideologies,
and they're actually a part of aworldview that's been
strategically built by people inour culture, sociologically, but
they don't know that theythey're in this ideology because

(57:47):
they've never identifiedthemselves as a part of it. They
just have been influenced by it.
But that would be a good thingto talk about. And there's a
verse that I wanted to findabout this I
can't find it quickly enoughhere, but it's the one that
says, like anything that setsitself up because against the
knowledge of Jesus, you know I'mtalking about, yeah, I'll find

(58:09):
that one later, but that I doagree that'll probably be a
future episode we'll get to. Butfor now, we just want to say
thanks again for joining us. Asalways, we appreciate your
participation.
If you we need it. I keep sayingthis. We need to make a tutorial
video for anybody who wants toleave us a five star review. I
get questions about this all thetime, okay, literally, probably
twice a week. Wow. But for thoseof you who have always wanted to

(58:31):
and haven't been able to yet, weappreciate it. We'll try to get
that out too soon. If you wouldlike to support us, we don't
need you to do that financially,just with two minutes of your
time to like and subscribe onYouTube, to share this on social
media, and then also leave afive star view that would be so
helpful to us. It just takesmaybe three minutes max, but it
would really help us to spreadthe word. So again, we

(58:54):
appreciate you for joining usand hope to see you guys again
next time you.