Is There Any Evidence Jesus Rose from the Dead? Historical Fact or Religious Fiction?

Is there any evidence Jesus rose from the dead? 

Dave and Jeff Leake discuss the surprising evidence that has skeptics and believers alike questioning everything they thought they knew about Christianity. 

Hear how top researchers and journalists who set out to DISPROVE Jesus' resurrection ended up becoming believers instead. Take a journey through historical mysteries, scientific investigations, and personal testimonies that will challenge everything you've been told. 

Are you brave enough to follow the evidence where it leads, even if it means confronting your deepest doubts about faith, science, and the supernatural?

VIDEOS SHOWN:
Joe Rogan "Jesus" Clip: https://youtube.com/shorts/RIW79NSBqIQ?si=WMawD9k3-ecUFSpG
Craig Brown "Healing" Clip: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8j6Fs8u/

BOOKS MENTIONED:
Jeff Leake's Book (around 50:26):
You Are God's Miracle Delivery System

Lee Strobel Books (around 44:50-46:00):
Case for Christ
Case for Easter
Case for Miracles
Case for Grace
Case for Creator
Case for Heaven
Case for Faith
Seeing the Supernatural

Bill Johnson & Randy Clark Book (around 45:45):
Essential Guide to Healing

Johannes Amritzer Book (around 45:14):
How Jesus Healed the Sick and How You Can Too

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
Today we're talking about proofs of the resurrection

(00:03):
of Jesus. So if you're a skepticof Christianity, maybe you're a
Christian, but you're not realsure if there's any validity to
your faith. Do we really know asa historical fact that Jesus
actually lived and did heactually die? And the big
question is, did he really risefrom the dead? This is the
central factor with the holidayEaster that's coming up. So
today we discuss what's thebasis for our faith in the

(00:25):
resurrection of Christ, and howshould we as Christians spread
the word about this? If you wantto hear more, tune in. Hey
everybody. Welcome to theAllison Park leadership podcast,
where we have culture creatingconversations. My name is Dave

Jeff Leake (00:38):
and my name is Jeff, and we're your host for the
podcast. We're so glad you'rejoining us again. We're both on
staff at Allison Park Church.
We're father and son. Dave's thepastor at the Northside campus,
and I'm the Lead Pastor ofAllison Park Church, and we so
appreciate we're getting a lotof feedback right now from those
who are listeners, and a lot ofpeople sending in topics of
potential future conversationsthat we can have. So we so

(01:02):
appreciate that. Do we have anynew, new shout outs for

Dave Leake (01:08):
we do before? For today? Wow, come on. Yeah. So
these four people were kindenough to leave us a five star
review. So we want to give you ashout out. Chris lockamy, Jordan
and Ariel Frazier, old water 412and Mike and Karen basil. So we
just want to say big thank you.
Thank you for your kind ofviews. And if you want a shout

(01:29):
out, we would love to give it toyou. Unfortunately, we can only
see people the names of thosewho leave five star reviews on
Apple podcast. So if you can dothat, we'd love to give you a
shout out. If you just want tohelp us out. You can always
comment and like on YouTube andsubscribe or whatever you're
watching on, you know, on yourpodcast platform.

Jeff Leake (01:48):
Yeah, so it does help us get the word out. Your
likes actually help spread theword, so we appreciate that. So
let's dive into our topic fortoday. So we're in early April.
We're recording this just alittle bit before the
celebration of Good Friday andthe Resurrection Sunday. And we
thought we would talk about therole of the resurrection really,

(02:09):
in answering some skepticalquestions that people have
about, is Christianity true? Howdo we know Jesus is the real
deal? Is he different from anyother human being? What makes
the story of what Jesus did onthe cross and his resurrection
distinct, and why should we havefaith in it? I think there's
going to be really encouragingpodcast. Honestly, there's going

(02:29):
to be a lot of great stuff we'regoing to cover together, but
I'll pitch it to you, Dave,since, yeah, well, you

Dave Leake (02:33):
know, there's been a lot of bigger voices in the
social media, internet worldrecently that have been asking
the question, like, who Jesusreally was like? Was he even a
real historical figure? And whatdo we what do we believe about
his claims? You know, because Ithink there's this

(02:54):
acknowledgement, okay,Christians believe blank about
Jesus. But can we trust thoseclaims? Why should we trust
those claims? We don't have aclip from this guy, but Logan
Paul, who's a big podcaster,YouTuber, Boxer, amateur. But
you know Logan Paul is? Yeah,okay. He he had Cliff nectal. If

(03:17):
you know who that is, he's likea Christian apologist. Okay, I
think it's how you say his lastname. He had him on and his son
on their on their podcast,impulsive is what it's called. I
think it was last summer to talkabout Jesus. So the podcast is
called impulsive, yeah? LoganPaul's podcast, right, right? He
has these Christian leaders onthese pastors, yeah, that and
Cliff, Cliff, I think, is, Ithink he's a neck door connect

(03:39):
on and on it, but he's, like,been for decades. He's been
going to university campuses.
Oh, I've seen this guy. Yeah,yeah, he's tall. And he right.
So with a crowd standing around,yeah, people ask him a skeptical
question, and he provides alogical answer, yeah, it's
really good. He's really good.
So he went on the Logan Paulpodcast. They had a
conversation, and then Joe Roganrecently had a conversation

(04:00):
about the historicity of theperson of Jesus, and it's been
really cool to see, I thinkspecifically with with Joe
Rogan, he kind of was, like, acouple of years ago, he said
something like, I've never, youknow, I don't think I've ever
taken anybody seriously whobelieves in God, especially
Jesus, you know. But now he's,like, starting to at least have

(04:21):
conversations about curious.
He's curious, right?

Jeff Leake (04:23):
Yeah, so it's a really interesting time that we
live in, isn't it? Because yousocial media has given a
platform to people from everywalk of life to share their
point of view, which has in someways leveled the playing ground
for everybody to be able to havean opinion, and it has made it
possible for people to have toconsider maybe some things about

(04:46):
faith and the Bible and Jesusthat they wouldn't have
considered otherwise. Nowthere's a whole wave of people
that are trying to discredit theScripture and discredit
Christianity, and they bring upall the worst aspects of
Christian history to helppeople. People become
exvangelicals, right? Todeconstruct their faith and to
walk away, and then you have awhole bunch of people on the

(05:07):
other side who are out ofspiritual curiosity, converting,
right? They're people that arebecoming Catholics, they're
people that are becomingChristians, they're people that
are, you would say, popularculture figures that are leaning
into the conversation about, IsJesus really who he said he is?
Is he really the Son of God? Sothat's all good. And I think
this season that we're in rightnow, Dave was we lead up to the

(05:29):
resurrection is one of thegreatest opportunities that we
have to talk about thereliability of our faith and the
solid foundation upon which thetruth of Jesus Christ rest,
because the resurrection is thecentral idea that brings proof
to who he really is. But beforewe get there, I know, I know we

(05:50):
were looking at playing a coupleof clips today as a part of our
discussion, right? Yeah.

Dave Leake (05:55):
Okay, so, so the first one we're going to watch
is from Joe Rogan where he'ssort of asked asking questions
about who Jesus is. I think thatthis is a good description of
maybe even some people that areChristians, that sort of
question like, well, what's theactual validity or legitimacy of
what I believe or believe isit's just a myth? Is it a fairy

(06:16):
tale? Yeah, like, I like it.
Legend. Uh huh, you know. Or isthis, did it really happen? Is
this history? How reliable is itthat

Jeff Leake (06:24):
I believe these things Joe Rogan's podcast, like
the biggest in the world, or oneof the biggest, has to be at the
top the biggest? Yeah, becausehe's kind of started this long,
three hour conversations thatactually have triggered a lot of
our conversations about aliensand UFOs and all kinds of other
like he has. He's just beenwilling to go wherever like and

(06:46):
have long conversations withpeople of expertise. So yeah, so
go

Unknown (06:50):
ahead and check out this clip. Go ahead. What do you
think of Jesus?

Jeff Leake (06:55):
Well, it certainly seems like there's a lot of
people that believe that therewas this very exceptional human
being that existed. So thequestion is, what does that
mean? Does it mean he was theson of God? Does it mean he was
just some completely uniquehuman being that had this vision
of humanity and this way ofspreading this ideology that

(07:17):
would ultimately change the wayhuman beings interact with each
other forever. Is he the son ofGod? Well, are we all that's
another question, but you haveto submit to this concept that
this guy was the child of Godwho came down to earth, let
himself be crucified, came backfrom the dead, explained a bunch
of stuff for people, and thensaid, All right, so you want to
come back if we get to a pointwhere artificial reality is

(07:40):
indiscernible from regularreality, and Jews, Jesus chooses
to come back at that moment.
Boy, that's the ultimate test offaith. Okay, well, that was he
covered a lot of ground in alittle section there, though,
especially the way he ended waskind of unusual. So we'll get to
that in a minute. But let's,let's look at what Joe's
proposing here. Right? Go ahead.

(08:04):
What's your reaction so well?
First, I would say it is true. Ilike how he described it, that
he had a unique vision for theworld, that he was different
from anybody else that he heaffected the world and changed
the way how all of humanityrelates to one another. I mean,
all of that is true of Jesus.
Some people want to let it stopthere, that he was just a great

(08:25):
leader, a great teacher, greathumanitarian, had a great
vision, and he was killed, justlike a lot of people who come to
bring peace and elevate theworld to a higher level. So a
lot of people keep Jesus in thatcategory. But then he says,
what? But? But if following himmeans I have to submit to the
idea that he actually was theSon of God who came down to

(08:46):
earth, died on the cross andthen rose from the grave and
then went away, you know, andhe's going to come back again
if, if that's what it means tobe a follower of Jesus, which,
let's just say that is what itmeans to be a follower of Jesus.
Joe Rogan understands thegospel, whether he has come to
the place where he has said, Inow believe that too. I don't,

(09:06):
I'm not sure he's on the edgelike he's right there, because
he because he's even saying,Boy, wouldn't it be cool if he
came back, like, because then hewent into this whole thing that
if AI takes over the world anddestroys everything, wouldn't it
be great that Jesus came back torescue us? Right? That's kind of
how he ends it. So he obviouslyhasn't crossed the line of
faith, but he's at the at thevery edge, because these are the

(09:26):
right questions. If you want tobecome a Christian, or if you
want to know that your faith hasgot solidity, he's actually set
the table for us to have a realconversation about about what it
means to believe these things.
Well,

Dave Leake (09:39):
I mean, and I think he's asking questions that
probably Every Christian Needsto ask, yeah, if you're going to
be serious about your faith,he's obviously pre Christian,
you know, hopefully he heconvert, you know, I shouldn't
say converts. Hopefully hesurrenders to Jesus, yeah, you
know, becomes a follower and adisciple, but, but I think
every. Christian. Every personwho decides and makes that

(10:02):
decision, regardless as towhether you thought about it
deeply, you probably do need toask some of those real
questions. Like, you know, whydo I trust in this? Can I trust
in this? I think maybe there'ssometimes a hesitancy too, like,
I don't want to look into thistoo deeply, because if there are
reasons to doubt that mightfreak me out too much, and I

(10:24):
don't want to question thefoundations of this, like, isn't
it a matter of faith, butactually,

Jeff Leake (10:28):
the other side, if I look into it too deeply, and I'm
convinced that I'm gonna have tochange, right? Because if Joe
Rogan submits to that idea, ishis whole world is going to
change for the positive, I'llsay, but, but, you know, coming
to that conclusion that Jesus isnow the God of the universe, I
have to submit to my life tohim, that's a radical, radical

(10:51):
decision, which is the ultimatesalvation, transformative
decision that we want everybodyto come to. Yeah,

Dave Leake (10:56):
okay, so, so let's just, let's just start the
conversation. I guess we're,we're addressing this question
like, What weight can we reallyplace on evidence that Jesus is
real, that he was real, but thathe did die and, you know,
resurrect, rise again and go toheaven?

Jeff Leake (11:17):
Well, first, first, I think we would say there's no
doubt that people accept that helived in history, right? Like
there are some people that justlove to throw doubt on on the
whole idea of Christianity thatwill say, Oh, I don't know if
you have any evidence of it, butthere actually is not just
biblical evidence,archeological, archeological
evidence, historical evidence.
There are historians likeJosephus who talk about the fact

(11:37):
that he lived in Josephus is nota Christian. No, he's a Roman.
And he's writing an independenthistory of the Roman Empire. And
it's actually, actually a Jewwho wrote a Jewish Roman, right,
right? He's writing Romanhistory, and his premise was not
to write about Jesus. He'swriting a long history Rome's
battles and victories and but hementions Jesus in one of the

(12:00):
chapters, and he describes hisimpact on the world. So he's a
he's noted in history. Sothere's, there's just a whole
bunch of information about theidea that Jesus legitimately did
live. Yeah,

Dave Leake (12:16):
absolutely. I guess the the claim, so, without where
I was gonna go with thisinitially is, I think the other
part we have to take, take alook at, is the claims he just
makes about himself. So when weset this up, it's like, was she
just, just a good teacher? Weprobably talked about this
before. It's a common thing,right? It's

Jeff Leake (12:33):
it. So the the idea is he can't just be a good
teacher, because he walkedaround telling everyone that he
was God, like, you know, youwouldn't say, you wouldn't say
that about any other culticleader who claimed divinity. He
was a great teacher, becausehe's actually claiming to be
God, right? It kind of nullifieseverything. So if he's, if he's
not God, and he's claimed to beGod, even if he has good moral

(12:55):
teachings, then he's a crazyperson. Yeah, that's the whole
paradigm that CS Lewis said,yeah. He's either a liar, a
lunatic, or he's Lord the Lord.
Yeah, right. So, so the qualityand of his teaching, though, is
one of the proofs of who he is,because his teaching truly was
world changing, yeah, but itwasn't just his teaching that

(13:17):
establishes who he is. Are youlooking up some of the
references of Jesus's claims? Isthat what you're

Dave Leake (13:24):
there's a guy that I saw a clip of a while ago. His
name is Gary Habermas. Heard ofthis guy? No. And he, I think he
got a PhD on the resurrection ofJesus, and he wasn't allowed to
use the Bible as any part of hishis dissertation for historical
evidence, yeah, but he builtthis really cool case. We won't,

(13:47):
I probably won't. Don't havetime to pull all the facts that
he had up. But essentially hejust, he historically, goes
through like nobody can reallyeven doubt the claim of the
resurrection, okay, because of,like, secular scholars, when you
look at the historicity of thedocuments like, like that we
have from ancient times abouthow this event changed the world

(14:09):
really, like, no real serioushistorical scholar questions the
life and even the resurrectionof Jesus. It sort of like messes
with people. Like, I'm not goingto go too far into that, but
like, historically, like, wedon't have, there are very few
things that are this wellattested from a historical
documentation perspective.

Jeff Leake (14:29):
So, and then there's a couple, there's a couple of
these examples of these stories.
Just like the guy that youmentioned, was he a Christian
when he was, when he wasresearching, yeah, okay, okay,
so there. So we mentioned JoshMcDowell. Josh McDowell, who was
an atheist, who set out to provethat Christianity was false by
trying to disprove because heknew, if we can disprove the

(14:51):
resurrection, we eliminate theidea that Jesus was God, yeah,
and we put him into the categoryof great teachers. Here, and as
Josh McDowell did his research,this is now probably 50 years
ago, he actually convincedhimself, through his research,
that Jesus did rise from thedead and became a Christian.
Same thing happened in the earlyor late 1980s early 1990s by a

(15:13):
guy by the name of Lee Strobelwho worked for the Chicago
Tribune. His wife got saved, andhe wanted to disprove her
decision. So as a journalist, hestarted to research the
resurrection and the person ofJesus Christ to disprove it. And
in the process, he becameconvinced that Jesus truly did
rise from the grave, and hebecame a follower of Christ, and

(15:34):
he has now written a slew ofbooks as a journalist. Yeah, the
case for the creator, the casefor the resurrection, the case
for Christmas. I mean, he goes,he just, he just wrote a new
one. I just happened to see himon a Christian television
program that talks about, I haveto pull it up in a minute. It
talks about the validity ofmiracles in the world, like he

(15:55):
researches true miracle storiesand documents that there are
legitimate miracles that happenin the name of Jesus, right?
That that are also part of theproof of that. So there, there
are a lot of resurrectionproofs. I don't know if you want
to talk through that for amoment, like, this is a good
thing, especially during theEaster season. Sure. Yeah. So,
so, so why do we believe theresurrection? What? What are the
logical reasons? Not just thatthe gospel is recorded as such.

(16:18):
There are some actual, real,legitimate reasons, you know.
So,

Dave Leake (16:24):
okay, I'll start with the obvious one that I know
of, but I don't know if I'llcome back to memory. I think one
of the most obvious ones is thatyou had these 12 guys that were
disciples of Jesus, you know,one who was substituted for
Judas, obviously. But all 12,except for John, were martyred
for their beliefs. And they hadchances, like, hey, we won't

(16:47):
execute you if you renouncethis. And you know, just
logically, like, nobody iswilling to die for someone they
know is alive. Yeah.

Jeff Leake (16:55):
So all they had to so Simon Peter, tradition says
was crucified upside downbecause he was unwilling to be
crucified in the same way asJesus was. And they asked him
the question, before He wascrucified, all you have to do is
deny that Jesus was risen fromthe dead. And he said, I can't
right. What is it? Thomas, inIndia, became a missionary in

(17:18):
India, and is stabbed throughwhile he's praying. What so all
of the disciples, except for theapostle John, end up being
martyred for their faith. Andnot just them, but hundreds and
hundreds of Christians in the inthe century that follows Jesus
resurrection were also murderedfor their faith. Yeah, and some

(17:40):
in the arena, in the Romanarena, saying, recant your faith
in the risen Jesus, and we won'tkill you. And they, and they
went to their death swearingthat they believed that Jesus
was alive. So you have theseeyewitness accounts of the
Gospels. You have the discipleswho go to their death swearing
that they witnessed this. Therehas never been a body produced.

(18:02):
That's another reason, right?
So, well, it's like all they hadto do to disprove it was say we
have his body right

Dave Leake (18:07):
here. Yeah, right. I have, I have Gary Habermas. He
has like six, okay, take usthrough that are not disputed by
secular historians, like they'rejust indisputable. Everybody
agrees on this. So it's thatJesus died by crucifixion, you
know, we definitely, definitelyknow that, right, right? That
His disciples had realexperiences that they at least

(18:30):
thought were appearances ofJesus, okay, that the disciples
were transformed even to thepoint of being willing to die
for their message, right? James,the brother of Jesus, had a real
experience where he thought hehad, he had an appearance of
Jesus. Paul also had a similarappearance to Jesus, and
converted, and the message wasproclaimed within one or two
years from the crucifixion. Sothere's, like, all these

(18:52):
accounts that are not just sopeople,

Jeff Leake (18:54):
people could have said that didn't happen, like,
Okay, what we have written inthe gospel, they were these
things were reported andrecorded. You know, right after
Jesus was raised, people thenpeople when the when these books
were circulating, these theseGospel accounts, people who
could have said, I lived inJerusalem at that time. I know
that didn't happen, right?
That's a total myth. ButChristianity spreads from being

(19:16):
just a handful of people tobeing the dominant force in the
Roman Empire by the year 313right? How could that be? If
this central idea of whatChristianity is, or who Jesus
is, His resurrection, right, waswas untrue,

Dave Leake (19:33):
yeah, absolutely.
And it's, oh, what do they callthis? They're man. I am blanking
on what this is called, butthere, there are some events in
history that they call a certainterm. It's like a think of it in
a second. It's like a capitalevent, but it's like one where,
like, you never forget where youwere. Like, 911 is right? Right?

(19:54):
Yeah, COVID, yeah. Everybodyremembers where you were, right?
Well, maybe. Do I like, when youfirst heard about COVID, you
shut it down the NBA orwhatever, right? But definitely
not 11. Like, if you're olderthan JFK being shot where you
were when he first heard aboutthe 911 Yeah, I was in here

Jeff Leake (20:11):
in the church office. We were having a staff
meeting. It was like a littlebit after nine o'clock, someone
called and said, hey, they flewa plane in the World Trade
Center. Yeah, we had a TV thatwas hooked up in the office to a
satellite because we were, wewere purchasing some kind of
conference that came over thesatellite dish back of the day,
and the only thing, onlychannel, that we got for free,

(20:33):
was some channel in eitherChinese or Japanese. It was a
foreign station. So we stoodthere and watched with the sound
off of as the second plane flewinto the building, yeah? Like,
it's one of these moments thatmarks you forever, right, right?
So this kind of a moment, theresurrection of Jesus was one of
those moments, yeah. So one ofthose, it's the moment, yeah,
yeah,

Dave Leake (20:53):
right. Like, for me, I remember being, like, probably
10, or, I think it was 10 at thetime, yeah, you know, in mom's
basement and coming down andseeing her crying after the
first planet hit, and thenwatching live as the second one.
I mean, like you never forgetthose moments. So one of the
arguments is 1000s of people hadthat moment with the
resurrection of Jesus, not justthe crucifixion, but the

(21:15):
resurrection of Jesus, and itimmediately begins to spread,
and is so convincing that itspreads across the globe, yeah.
I mean, it's, it's and 50 dayslater, after his resurrection,
yeah. Is the day of Pentecost,where 3000 people who were in
Jerusalem decide to becomefollowers of Jesus. Yeah. So, if
this is a myth, a conspiracy, Imean that there's a and then

(21:37):
before long, half of Jerusalem.
So they say 25,000 of the 55,000that lived in Jerusalem. Within
a few years after theresurrection were all followers
of Jesus. Yeah, if this isfalse, it seems pretty ludicrous
to think that the very citywhere this hoax was pulled off
would have half the city asfollowers. It's the thing is too
it's not just like it was areligion, right? It wasn't. It

(21:58):
starts off with this massiveevent that everybody knew about.
It was the talk of the town asit was happening when they
crucified Jesus. Yes, like 1000swere there that saw this happen.
But then 1000s are witnesses tohim, right? He appeared to many,
many people over the 40 daysafter His resurrection, right?
And then you have Pentecost. Sowhen Pentecost happens and Peter

(22:21):
preached this message about thisJesus, it's not like he's
preaching about this mythicalfigure that they wouldn't have
known. They all knew Jesus.

Jeff Leake (22:30):
They had seen him do stuff in Jerusalem. They had
huge and it was like he camepreaching Jesus 12 he you have
to agree to adhere to Jesus 12principles. That isn't, that
isn't what he they camepreaching. If you read what
Peter preaches on the day ofPentecost book, in the book of
Acts, his central message isthis, Jesus, that you killed
came back from the dead, yes,

Unknown (22:49):
and

Jeff Leake (22:50):
they're all like he did, yeah, he did, right?
Clearly, definitely did. Let'sget baptized right now. And then
Acts chapter three, they'rewalking to the temple again,
paces away from where Jesus diedon the cross and rose from the
grave, and there's a man who'scrippled, and they pray for him
in the name of the resurrectedJesus. And he begins to jump
around, and he starts to walk.
And they ask him what'shappening. And he says, You

(23:11):
tried to kill the author oflife, but you couldn't. He came
back from the dead. So like, thecentral message of Christianity
wasn't a philosophy or moralteachings or principles about
love, that what the discipleswent around preaching after the
resurrection of Jesus is thatJesus was alive

Dave Leake (23:29):
based on a historical factual event that's
verifiable, and the documentsthat we have from that period of
history are like we know withway more certainty what happened
from the Bible perspective, notbecause of The biblical authors,
but just from other sources aswell. From other source as well.
Then we do in terms of thelegitimacy that we do about
certain things happening withCaesar or some of those ancient

(23:49):
Roman emperors, like, there'sthere is just like, from a
historical perspective, there isso much evidence that this was a
real historical event thatactually happened, you know. And
I think that that's so one ofthe things that I found with
Christianity is, the more thatyou look into it, the more that
it's like, wow, this is, this islegitimate, yeah, you know, the

(24:12):
only way you can reallydisqualify these types of things
is if you're your starting placephilosophically, or your
worldview is nothing can happenthat's supernatural, like only
scientific. You know, naturallaws are possible. There's
nothing that can happen as thereis no spirit world. There is no
spiritual realm. There is nosuch thing as a miracle. If you

(24:33):
start there, then you're like,it is, by definition impossible,
because you believe only naturalprocesses, right? But you sort
of have to ignore historicalaccounts, and you have to make
reasons that are natural innature to actually explain it
away. Because all of historyreally points to a bodily
resurrection of Jesus, you know,I just think, honestly, from a

(24:55):
scientific perspective, like,you know, Lee strobels case for
the Creator. Outlines a bunch ofproofs that we can, you know,
have, as far as the world beingcreated by by a designer, you
know, by a cosmic designer, theperson of God, it's and
scientists don't argue with thiseither, you know, like when,
when we look at the case forJesus, but also the case for a

(25:16):
creator, which are, you know,case for Christ, and one of his
books as well. Like it, theevidence really is overwhelming.
Yeah, you know, it's sort of, tome, it points to the spiritual
blindness that the Bible talksabout that's on the world. You
know, you know that you

Jeff Leake (25:31):
really owe it to yourself, if you are a skeptic
and you're listening to this tomaybe investigate a little
further, like so here are someof the books that Lee Strobel
wrote. They're really easy toread because every chapter is
the interview of another expertthat he journalistically looks
into. So he has one called thecase for Christ. There's one, a
short book called The Case forEaster. This might be a good one

(25:53):
to read during this particularseason, by the way, Dave, you'll
you'll like this net this latestbook by Lee Strobel. It's called
seeing the supernatural, and itis the seeing the supernatural,
investigating angelicappearances. Wow, right, so,
yeah. So he is documenting someof these supernatural claims.

(26:15):
One's called the case formiracles. One's called the case
for grace, case for the Creator,case for heaven. And again, all
researched some things case forfaith. So Lee has been a real
gift to the to the world becauseof some of these researched
approaches that he has. Butlet's go back to resurrection
proof. So you just gave us theworldview collision, right?

(26:38):
Dave, those who are naturalistsand those of us who believe in
Jesus, who believe in thesupernatural, and the fact that
Jesus, Christ is risen from thedead, continues to have proof
over the centuries, becausesupernatural things happen when
we use his name. Yeah, right, sowe pray in the name of Jesus.

(27:01):
And when that happens there,there are people who have been
transformed, healed in theirbody, set free from addiction,
transformed in the trajectory oftheir life, because they they,
they prayed in Jesus name,right? And something
supernatural happened as aresult of that. And so he

(27:21):
continues to prove himself,like, this is what I love so, so
there's a lot of places to lookfor proof. History is one place.
Archeology, archeology is oneplace. That's why I love to
visit Israel, and I love to goto Jerusalem, and I love to go
to the actual sites that arementioned in the Gospels. Like,
there's this place in Jerusalemcalled the pool, pool of
bethsheda, Bethesda, where a manwho couldn't walk was healed.

(27:46):
And you can actually go to thatspot where this man was healed
by Jesus. And it's like, this iswhat's mentioned in the
Scripture John chapter five.
This is the place where itactually happened, and they've
excavated it. So it's like, it'srelated to factual, visitable
places, which also addscredibility to us. Absolutely,

Dave Leake (28:05):
there's a clip of, there's a really cool clip that
we have that is a audio clip ofa pastor that, you know, I
guess, what was his name? Okay,

Jeff Leake (28:16):
so we're, we're gonna talk about, I think we may
have mentioned this before, butwe're gonna talk about this guy
named Dwayne Miller. He was thepastor in Houston. In Houston,
Texas. He actually was anassistant pastor on an on staff
of a massive Baptist Church.
Dwayne came to Allison ParkChurch in the 90s, and 2000s at
least twice, maybe three times.
So those of you who have beenaround Allison park for a while,

(28:37):
you'll remember this story, andDwayne had something go wrong
with his vocal cords, or hecouldn't talk at all. He had no
push to his voice whatsoever. Hecould whisper, but basically all
he was able to get out his airright? That's all he could do.
So he's a pastor, but he haslost the ability to do the one
thing most of us feel called todo, which is to teach and

(28:58):
preach. And so he goes throughthis two year process of, you
know, being treated anddiagnosed, and they're trying to
figure out what's wrong andwhat's causing this. And there
was a class, a Sunday schoolclass, of adults that felt like
we're gonna we're gonna backpastor Dwayne up and give him a

(29:19):
chance to teach. So theydesigned this special microphone
for him that went right upagainst his lips and allowed for
him to whisper his teaching.
Right? So every week he wouldcome in, and he would teach for
45 minutes, and he would wearout whatever he had of a voice,
but basically, the only way theycould hear him was through this
specialized microphone that hehad, and he happened to be
teaching on Psalm 103, whichsays, Bless the Lord O my soul

(29:43):
and all that is within me. BlessHis holy name. Bless the Lord O
my soul for getting out of allHis benefits. Who forgives all
our sin. And then the nextphrase is, who heals all our
diseases? And as he's teachingout of this section of
Scripture, and he says, Whoheals. All our diseases. You can
actually hear on on a recordingthat his voice comes back. Yeah.

(30:04):
So let's just, let's look atthis clip. So that's the setup
for it. So this is, this is onat Chris Brown, he posted this.
He again, Dwayne's been here,but I could never find access to
the recording. So telling,

Dave Leake (30:20):
oh, it's all over the internet. Now there's one
particular clip we have that,okay, but it's

Jeff Leake (30:24):
powerful. But I can attest to this. This is, this is
a legit thing. So let's go aheadand listen to this. Craig Brown,
Crazy boy, son, all of my

Unknown (30:32):
diseases. Let me say to you that I
believe God still heals. Thathasn't ended, that isn't is not
over hell. You have to becareful on how you do this,
because there are folks whocarry things to an excess and it
becomes a show. And God hasnever intended that that be what

(30:54):
it is. God heals in hissovereign will. I don't know why
God does things that he does,but I know that he does, and the
only thing He requires of me isto allow him to be God and me to
be me, and let it be to saythat, since we don't have

(31:15):
anything after the book of Acts,that miracles ended at the book
of Acts And they never happenagain, is equally as wrong,
because you have put God in abox both ways. He doesn't want
to be in the box. So thepsalmist says, I'm excited.
Bless the Lord. Oh my soul. Oneof his benefits is he heals all
of my diseases. And in versefour, he says, And he redeems my

(31:40):
life from the pit. Now I likethat verse just a whole lot I
have had, and you have had intimes past experiences,
he started to figure it out.
We've both had, we've all hadtimes when

(32:02):
our life seemed to be in a pitin a grave,
and we didn't have an answer forhe had been like this For two
years, the pit we find ourselvesin.

(32:27):
And I don't understand thisright now, bird over ground at
the moment,I'm not quite sure what

(32:50):
to say or do. We can cut itthere. Oh man, it's powerful.

Jeff Leake (32:57):
I mean, I've heard that. I've heard that recording
probably 20 times now, Dave,every time I hear it, it just
makes, makes me weep. This isbeautiful.

Dave Leake (33:05):
Oh, man. I mean, he was, he was coming out of a
somewhat Cessationistbackground, right? Yeah,

Jeff Leake (33:11):
you could hear his theology a little bit. It's sort
of like God sovereignly heals,but not, we don't understand why
it ever happens, you know, butwe're not going to say he never
heals anymore. That's kind ofwhat his perspective was.

Dave Leake (33:21):
Yeah, he was saying before that. We didn't hear this
part of the clip. He's like, to,you know, some of the people
that say God heals like, almostlike when you pray for it, like
they're putting God in their ownbox, right? As if he's like a
genie. But then to say it neverhappens is also put him in a
box. He redeems my life from thepit. And you could hear, you can

Jeff Leake (33:38):
hear it boom, and then it got a little stronger.
So by the end, I mean, it'slike, it's terrible, yeah? So
he's like, softball, yeah? Andhis, I mean, His entire ministry
after that, was just travelingand telling the story. He went
around all over the world,telling the story about how God
heals his voice, yeah? So, like,what do you do with that? So
that happened, that happened toa man as he's reading the Word

(34:03):
of God, a believer in the personof Jesus Christ. So if Jesus
just as a historical figure andisn't really who he claims to
be, how do you explain stufflike this? Right? And we could
go on and tell so many otherhealing stories too, like people
who called out in the name ofJesus. We've both had
experiences, Dave, where we laidhands on someone and prayed over

(34:25):
them in the authority of thename of Jesus, and something
undeniable happened right beforeour eyes, so that it becomes for
like, I mean, I just can't sofor me, I can't understand how
someone would not believe thatJesus rose from for me, it's,
I'm just convinced beyond allany kind of objection. I mean,

(34:47):
it's just absolute forcertainty, in my opinion. And it
is such a transformational thingthat happens when you confess
that, right? So that's where yousee a guy like Joe Rogan, and
you're like, Oh, you're soclose. Like, I just let him push
you over the edge. Judge.
Because man, once you finallycome to that realization of who
he is, he changes everything,right? Yeah.

Dave Leake (35:08):
I mean, I think, I think there is very strong
evidence, but I just think, youknow, Jesus talked about in mark
four, where he says, like, youknow that they're ever, ever
seeing but ever perceiving, youknow, ever hearing but never
understanding. Think there's alevel of spiritual blindness
that prevents most people fromactually being able to really
explore and accept that. Butclearly the intention of Jesus

(35:30):
is to make himself known in theworld, you know. And I think
that's part of what what Easteris all about. I mean, it's it. I
think it should be personal tous. Like to remember his death
and resurrection, you know, fromthe cross the sacrifice that he
made, but it's also to remind, Ithink, us of the fact that this
is the commission that we'vebeen given. Is to spread the

(35:51):
word about Jesus, you know,because I think that that's that
is his primary objective, is tomake himself known to the world,

Jeff Leake (35:59):
yeah, and remember that the objective isn't to
preach religion to people. It'snot to give people a list of
rules. It's not to give themspiritual principles. It's not
to teach them how to be goodcitizens. You're trying to
introduce them to a person who'salive. So when you're presenting
Jesus to people, it's not areligious concept, it's a
person, right? You're justtalking about the person of
Jesus. You're talking about theperson that you talk to every

(36:22):
day, right? And you're trying tointroduce them to someone that
they have to know by faith,that's true, but someone that's
very real. So actually, ifyou're a skeptic today and
you're listening to this, maybesomeone forwarded this to you, I
would just say to you, if you'reif you're really curious, start
to say to Jesus, like, talk tohim and say, Show me. Show

(36:45):
yourself to me, if you're real,I really want to see he's not
threatened by that at all. Andand and again. Some people come
to the table belligerent.
They're angry, they're they'rejust here to disprove right. But
for those who are genuinelyspiritually curious, start to
seek it out, read somethingstudy something like, if this
really happened, if Jesus reallydid come back from the dead,

(37:05):
there is nothing more importantfor you to know if it's true or
not than this, because thischanges everything, not just for
this life, but for

Dave Leake (37:13):
eternity. So okay, so maybe the last part of our
conversation could be generatedtowards this. I think, I don't
think we've talked about thisfor a little while. I can't
remember if we have anyway. Soif we're covering free, treading
ground, sorry, but I'm justthinking about, you know, as
believers acknowledging andcelebrating the resurrection.

(37:35):
When we see these cool there'sobviously apologetic proofs, you
know, right? The defense of thefaith, logically, historically,
scientifically, that's whatapologetic says. But then
there's also the signs ofwonders, element you're talking
about, right? So what are someof the ways that a Christian who
wants to start to step out andto share the gospel, you know,

(37:58):
to step out as an evangelist, ifyou will, to use that, that
word, right, whether or notthat's a calling, in terms of,
like, being a full timeevangelist, but I'm just saying,
like to be someone who carriesthe message, message of the
gospel. Like, what are somesteps that if you're not used to
sharing your faith, you'vealways felt like you should,
you're intimidated by it? Like,how do we begin to even stay so
I frame

Jeff Leake (38:19):
my interactions with people, especially we live in a
skeptical society that has beenburned oftentimes because of
encounters with Christianity orother religious faiths and been
turned off, and there's likethis pressure not to
proselytize. So I try to framemy interactions with people that
aren't yet Christ followersaround three questions. Okay, I

(38:42):
filter this in my mind. When Iam having a conversation with
somebody in the in the in the orif I have a friend, I think
these three questions, okay,first question that I will ask
often is, can I pray for you,like, maybe in the conversation,
if I'm taking the time to listenand they start to voice
something's going on in theirlife. My initial response is,

(39:05):
Hey, would you mind if I prayfor you? I mean, I can pray for
you right now, or I can pray foryou later. Can I pray for you?
Not just demonstrates the loveof God and a sense of empathy
and compassion, but it givesJesus an opportunity for a sign
of wonder in that person's life,right, right? So that's one
question. Sometimes I will askthem the question, Hey, you want

(39:27):
to come to a party? Right? Okay,so what kind of a party? Well,
we have an Easter egg huntcoming up. Hey, I know. Yeah, I
got kids. It's a blast. OrEaster weekend is happening. You
know? I just in Allison ParkChurch. I quoted for unchurched
people, what do they say? 70% ofunchurched people have never
been invited to church becauseeverybody's afraid to do that.

(39:47):
But 82% according to statistics,would come to church if they
were just asked. So mostunchurched people are wanting to
be asked now. They're not reallywanting to be asked, Would you
come to a religious meeting?
Eating with me. They want toknow. So if I'm asking you, I'm
really saying, you want to, youwant to be a part of my life?
Like, I'm going to go to church,then we're going to go to

(40:07):
Chipotle after, right? I'm goingto go to church and we're going
to go Starbucks after. Like,would you want to come hang out
with me? And as a part of mynormal activities, I go to
church and, and, by the way,it's Easter, right? Like, so
would you come to a party?
That's the second what can Ipray for you? Would you come to
a party? Number three, can Itell you a story? So I always

(40:29):
try to have a fresh story in mymind of something that I know
God has recently done to answera prayer or to heal somebody, or
to you know it's coming backfrom Mission strips. I'm stock
full from these, so I roll in toget my hair cut, or I'm being
waited on by somebody in aconversation, I will often say,
Hey, I just experienced the mostamazing thing, and I'm just so

(40:53):
pumped about it. Can I tell youthis like? So that's actually
the methodology that Jesus mostoften used, is he told stories?
Yeah, right. He he didn't preachat people. He told them stories,
and he and he gave, engaged withhim. So for me, that's how I
interact. I do. Can I pray foryou? Would you? Would you join
me in something, come to aparty, and can I tell you a

(41:14):
story? And that that opens thedoor for conversations, which
is, I think, really what we'reafter? Yeah, we're not trying to
get notches on our belt and showhow many converts we have true.
We're just trying to haveconversations with people that
lead them a step closer, yeah,to coming to understand Christ.
Yeah.

Dave Leake (41:30):
I think I've mentioned this before, but I
read a book last summer, thinkit was last summer, that was by
Bill Johnson, Randy Clark, andit was on healing, and Randy
Clark was talking about how,before he was in ministry, he
worked as, like, he was like aninspector. Well, that might not
even be the right word, kind oflike a manager for like,

(41:50):
bakeries and donut shops andstuff. He'd like go in and fix
their processes and stuff. Andhe said that early on, he felt
like he wanted to start prayingfor healing. So his opening line
would be something like, haveyou heard somebody had an
illness or disease? He'd say,you know, hey, I'm a Christian.
I've seen, you know, God healpeople when I pray. Doesn't
always happen, but sometimes itdoes. Can I pray for you? And

(42:12):
they're usually like, yeah,sure, yeah. And he saw a lot of
healings that happened just bythat, you know, opening line.
And he was saying that in hisopinion, like in his, like, you
know, just his, his antidotalexperiences were, like most
people that aren't Christiansare way more open to the idea
that God might heal them thanChristians who grew up believing

(42:33):
God doesn't really do thatanymore. Yeah, you know, he says
they're believing unbelievers.
You know what? I mean. Theybelieve God can potentially,
they're open to they most likelywon't. Yo, yeah. So non
believing believers, theybelieve in Jesus, but they don't
really believe he's gonna heal,right? But believing
unbelievers, like, Oh, God mightdo that, but they don't believe
in Jesus yet. But I just thoughtthat was interesting. I do think

(42:53):
that's true. Like most people,if you say that, they're like,
Okay, I'm not gonna questionyour experience. Like, yeah,
sure. You can pray for me, sure,and often, anything that might
help. And I think often, that'swhere God does the biggest
miracle. I actually,

Jeff Leake (43:07):
so people often ask the question, why do we not see
more people healed in Westernculture, and you go to various
places around the world and yousee, see it more prominent. I
actually, I actually thinkthat's false. I think the reason
why we talk about what happenson missions experiences is
because in those moments, we'veall gone on an assignment for
two weeks where all we're goingto do is preach and pray, right

(43:29):
and we get 1000s of people on afield. We pray for the sick
right there. We come back well,because we're all in Unity.
We're all working towards thatone goal, whereas we come home,
we're living our lives and we'redistracted, and we raising kids,
and we're taking to soccerpractice and paying bills, etc,
but I think most often, Goddemonstrates His healing power

(43:49):
in the preaching of the Gospelto someone that is not saved.
It's like, that's why we call itsigns and wonders, because it's
a confirming sign of the messagethat's preached. So when you're
telling somebody about Jesusthat has not yet come to faith,
it's more likely at thatintersection where they are yet
still not a believer, that asyou share the gospel with them,

(44:11):
that God confirms with signs andwonders. Because that's a big
part of what healing is. It'snot just a covenant provision to
us we're like healing is thechildren's bread, but it also is
one of the greatest signs thatJesus is alive. And so when we
preach it to cultures thatdoesn't that has never heard the
gospel before, I think JohannesAmritsar has said it's like when

(44:35):
a warm front and a cold frontcollide, that's where you see
Thunder, lightning. Yeah, right,right. So where the powers of
darkness exist, and we come inwith the power of the gospel,
the light and the darknesscollide, and there's sparks that
fly. I think that happensanytime the gospel is preached.

Dave Leake (44:49):
By the way, there you said, healing is a
children's bread. There'scertain things that are part of
a relationship with God that Godsays, this is just because
you're my child, right? One ofthose things is physical
healing. Right? There are somereally, really good books on on
physical healing. I think a lotof times people have questions
like, this is something that,come on, Dave, you're the book
guru recommends. Well, Johanneshas one that's called how Jesus

(45:12):
healed the sick and how you cantoo. Yeah, it's

Jeff Leake (45:14):
a good one. That's a really good one. There's a
really great book out justrecently called, you are God's
miracle deliveries. That'sright, yeah. Who's that? Who is
that author? Yeah, that's thelatest book that I wrote about
the power of the Holy Spirit andhow God wants to use you to
carry a miracle into somebodyelse's life by your willingness
to pray for them. Excellent.

Unknown (45:32):
How can they? How can they find that setup?

Jeff Leake (45:35):
It's on Amazon or any other place that you might
buy books from, right? So youare God's birthday definitely
worth three, yeah. But thenthere's the one that you just
mentioned from Bill Johnson.

Dave Leake (45:46):
Let me see what it's called. Were you there other
ones

Jeff Leake (45:49):
that you were thinking of today that you were
going to mention, or was thatjust truly a setup for me to
talk about? It's

Dave Leake (45:54):
called the essential, Essential Guide to
healing. No, no, no. I, Iactually, I knew we were
supposed to talk about that, butI forgot we're supposed to talk
about that. The reason why I'mbringing that up is I think,
okay, here, here's the wholething. And this is, I think
we've done a podcast on this,but this is one of those things
that I think probably is good torevisit at some point. Think a
lot of Pentecostals meaning theybelieve in the Acts of the Holy

(46:17):
Spirit still viable today. HolySpirit still gives gifts to
people to use as signs andwonders. I think a lot of us are
like closet Pentecostals, andsort of there's this, like fear
of I'm not really sure thatPentecostals have good theology,
because everybody says we'rejust in it for emotional
experiences, and I've seen somestuff happen. But how, how valid

(46:39):
is any of this? You know,

Jeff Leake (46:40):
part of the reason why I wrote the book, because
the other reason is people havenever been practically taught
how this works in a non hypedway, yeah? And they don't know
the practical value it carriesin their own life, in an
everyday kind of expression, andthey don't know how to handle it
in a normalized fashion, not anoverly emotional fashion, yeah?
And so a lot of Pentecostalshave had personal experiences

(47:04):
with the Holy Spirit that theyknow they can't deny, but
they're not sure to how to fleshthat out in the way that they
live their life and still be thenormal human being that they are
in every other space. And it ispossible for the work of the
Holy Spirit to be not justpowerful, but practical. It's
not that. It's not emotional,because, yeah, when God moves in
the world, it's it's anemotional experience. But

(47:24):
emotionalism doesn't have tolead the way. Agree like you can
actually keep your head aboutyou and know what you're
operating in in a very sane andcalm fashion, and see answers to
prayer happen and transformationtake place. And so people hide
their Pentecostalism becausethey they're feel a little
embarrassed by it, and they feelalso like they're not sure how

(47:46):
to have handles with it. So

Dave Leake (47:48):
the thing is, there are all kinds of differing views
on different parts of theologyin the Bible, right? I don't
think that, you know, I wouldsay there's a lot of things I
would not make huge truth claimson but regardless, as as your
theory, theological background,I think everybody should be
Pentecostal, because that's thatis so clear, yeah, like, like,

(48:10):
whether, whether you're Lutheranor Methodist or Anglican or
Assemblies of God, let's,

Jeff Leake (48:15):
let's take the label away, and let's say everyone
should live as if the book ofActs were for today, yes,

Dave Leake (48:20):
and that the Holy Spirit's still in operation for
Pentecostal.

Jeff Leake (48:23):
People believe that everything we read about in the
book of Acts didn't disappearthen, but it's the normal way we
should be living today. And it'snot

Dave Leake (48:31):
I, in my view, it's not enough just to say, Well,
I'm not saying it doesn'thappen, right? Just unless God
does it like I think some peopleare too crazy about it. I think
maybe you need to be a littlebit more hungry, because, like,
because, like First Corinthians,12 and 14, the whole urging of
Paul is eagerly desire thesethings. All this to say there's
a world out there that needs youto be God's miracle delivery

(48:55):
system. Yeah.

Jeff Leake (48:55):
So think about it.
If Jesus is alive, anything'spossible. If Jesus rose from the
dead, he defeated death itself.
And if Jesus sent the HolySpirit to live inside of you as
a believer, so Jesus is alive,and the Holy Spirit lives in
you. And you're you're walkingaround with a potential
explosive partnership of theHoly Spirit to break on the

(49:17):
scene at any moment. And there's1000s and 1000s and millions of
people who have still not cometo faith in Christ, and you
carry the divine potential ofthe Spirits power in your life.
This is the most important thingthat you can know as a
Christian, is how to be inrelationship with the Holy
Spirit, so that, so that you cansee signs and wonders happen and
prove that Jesus is alive, andsee healing happen and see

(49:38):
people minister to so I from amissional perspective, from a
missional perspective, from amissional perspective with
Jesus, spiritual goose bumps,that something, something wild
and weird happened, but so thatand so that people's needs are
met, so people's prayers areanswered, and whole family lines
are changed because of ofexperiences that people have
with with the power of God.
Yeah, and and, so, yeah, like Isaid before, I'm not only

(50:02):
convinced of the resurrection ofJesus. I can't, I can't even
imagine there being anythingmore important in the whole
world than just because it'schanged everything. Yeah. So
pick up that book. It's called,you are God's miracle delivery
system, yeah, or any of theother ones mentioned, right? We
got to get an audio version ofthis, by the way, I'm working on
that. Are you actually, I founda way to self produce, so I'll
probably be for several of thebooks that I've written. Create

(50:25):
so audio. So

Dave Leake (50:27):
many of us, I think, are audio almost exclusively.
It's just it's hard to sit downand actually take the time. So
do we have a general timeline ofby the fall? Okay, yeah. So we
will let you know when the audioversion is out. If you're not a,
you know, sit down and read kindof person, but it, regardless
what I was, what I was gettingat is, I think that the kind so,

(50:50):
whether we're talking about casefor creator, case for Christ, or
we're talking about, you know,the validity of healing or of
the gifts of the Spirit as partof theology, if there are things
that you're unsure about, butyou're like, Oh, I hope this is
true. I want this to be true.
I'm hungry for this. I thinkeverybody owes it to themselves
to do a little bit of study andresearch and to educate
yourself, because there's athere's a level of confidence

(51:12):
whenever you you know are ableto correctly handle the Word of
God, as Paul says to Timothy,

Jeff Leake (51:18):
yeah, and correctly and skillfully partner with the
Holy Spirit. That's right, yeah,that's

Dave Leake (51:23):
right. I think that that has opened up a new
dimension of my walk with Jesus.
I'm not talking about thehealing part so much, but just
becoming better acquainted withwhy I believe what I believe. Of
you know the confirmation of thelegitimacy of the person of
Jesus, of you know thescientific nature of creation,
but also of the fact that Goddoes want to heal. You know,

(51:44):
he's not uncertain about this.
Or you have to be a certain youhave to be good enough, or he
only picks certain people. Likethe more I've become acquainted
with what Scripture says, themore I have confidence in that,
yeah, and I know there arepeople that are hungry. I just,
I just met somebody yesterday atthe Northside campus. We were
talking after service, and he'sabout to go to Army Ranger

(52:08):
School. And as we were talking,you know, I just was sensing
like there's this purpose underlife. And I think so many people
just like him, it's like, maybeyou're in the army, or maybe
you're in medical school, ormaybe you're in, you know, an
education role, but like, everyperson is God's specific miracle
delivery system for that contextthat you're in. And like, the

(52:31):
world is never gonna be reachedthe way that Jesus wants it to
be, unless each person in theirindividual context becomes, you
know, as you said, a miracledelivery system for the gospel
to those people that are in yoursphere of influence. So I guess
I'm just calling out likethere's more for you, regardless
as to who you are.

Jeff Leake (52:49):
Yeah, and, and the fact of the matter is, when God
works in the world, he primarilyworks through us, not
independent of us, meaning thatGod does give dreams and visions
and drops healings on people whowho aren't being ministered to
or talked to by a Christian or aspiritual leader, but most often
he he delivers an answer toprayer through somebody else

(53:09):
who's a willing conveyor of thatand so. So that's why there are
there are prayers goingunanswered, and there are people
that are going unministered Tobecause we aren't making
ourselves available toskillfully work with him. By the
way, since we've done some bookcommercials, we should probably
throw this into before we endthe conversation. Allison Park
Leadership Academy is designedto be a school of the Spirit in

(53:33):
a way like it's designed to giveyou the practical application
tools as to how to live thislife with a mission experience
at the end. And so we're in thespring now of 2025, in the fall,
we'll have our 17th year of theschool. So if you're interested
in more information about that,we'd love to have conversations
with you about that too. Yeah,yeah.

Dave Leake (53:55):
Essentially, I to let me, let me go off of that.
If you felt a stirring or atugging on your heart from God
like, I need something more. Ineed more development. I need
more training. I want to go tothe next level. I want to be,
you know, used by God in apowerful way. Then maybe that's
God tugging in your heart totake a big leap of faith and do

(54:16):
something like Allison ParkLeadership Academy. You know, I
don't know how my job is goingto work out. Or I need finances.
I have family to feed. Well,just start the process of this
conversation with us. You canapply if

Jeff Leake (54:26):
you want to come in and audit one of the classes
between now and the beginning ofMay, we'd be happy to have you.
But either way, start to lean inin your relationship with God
and ask him the question, Jesus,I believe you're alive. How do
you want to use me today, orshow me more of who you are? If
you're a skeptic and you'reyou're in this resurrection

(54:47):
season, say Jesus, if you reallyare who you say you are, if
you're really alive, show showyourself to me, yeah, and I
believe that God's gonna helpyou take next steps with him.

Dave Leake (54:57):
I'm looking at your jacket right now. That call
jacket. Yeah. Initiative that wehave with the Assemblies of God
to talk about the call of Godpeople's life. I'd love to do
another episode sometime soon,just on that one, yeah, just
because I think I've, I'vestarted to sense again recently,
I think there's a lot of hunger,like, because a lot of people
are starting to sense, like,God's called me to something

(55:17):
bigger than where I am rightnow, maybe even into ministry,
although it's terrifying to me.
Like, yeah, I've had so manythese conversations, so I'd love
to talk more about this, becausemaybe, as we're talking about
being used, somebody's like,wow, I wish it was more. And
maybe it is, you know,

Jeff Leake (55:31):
so if you have that in your heart, God has put it
there for a reason, yeah, don'tignore it. Don't ignore it,
because he has a pathway foryou. He wouldn't put that in
your heart not give you apathway forward to explore how
to do that. So he already hassomething mapped out for you.
And so you just simply, simplyhave to say to God, what's my
next step? You know? And he'llhelp it. And as pastors, we're

(55:53):
here to help you on that journeytoo. So

Dave Leake (55:54):
you don't have to, we'll talk about less more,
maybe another episode. You don'thave to know. For fact, you're
called to start the journey tosay, Maybe I am. It's a little
intimidating, but I want toexplore this. Well, we know

Jeff Leake (56:06):
you're called to something, whatever you end up
doing, even if it is medicine orscience or education or the arts
or what you know, whatever itis, if you're in it, you're
called to it, but you're calledto be a representative of Jesus
there, right? And so knowingwhether you're called to
ministry as a as a vocation, orif you're called to where you're

(56:27):
supposed to be and you're tominister there, clarifying that,
because everybody's calledsomewhere, and some of us are
called to be, you know,equippers in the church. But

Dave Leake (56:39):
I mentioned this to say, because I think we do this
too often, that there issomething actually gives you an
out. Yeah, there is actually.
It's not all the same, yeah,like you know it's, it's all
holy unto God, if you make itholy unto God by dedicating it
to him. But there's somethingextra special and significant
about people that are

Jeff Leake (56:56):
called we should probably stop here and tease
that as something for a futureepisode, because it sounds like
we could go another, we couldhour on this, right? Okay,

Dave Leake (57:05):
but so let's dangle that though. If that maybe is
you, yeah, don't let that dieout. You know, start to press in
and ask God, and we'll have,yeah,

Jeff Leake (57:15):
we'll have more on that discussion. Hey. Well,

Dave Leake (57:17):
we, as we close, we'd so appreciate you joining
again, and we say this everytime, but we're so thankful that
you're a part of this, thispodcast with us. There's a lot
of ways we'd love to just askfor quick support. So you know
you don't, don't have to investany money in this. This is just
five minutes max your time. Ifyou're on YouTube, Like and
subscribe to the channel andcomment let us know your

(57:39):
thoughts. Yep,

Jeff Leake (57:40):
and that's happening more and more. And we like when
we hear comments, and we likewhen we get suggestions back
about future topics, yeah.

Dave Leake (57:47):
So you can do that.
You can subscribe to thepodcast. You can leave us a five
star review in whatever platformyou're on, or just, you know,
hit that little Share button.
It's usually like a little paperairplane, and you can copy link
or text directly to a friend,send it to some people that
might benefit by hearing this,but we appreciate you. If you
could help us spread the word,that'd be amazing. So we'll

(58:08):
catch you guys again next timeyou.