August 6, 2024 • 29 mins
Welcome to another enlightening episode of "Behind the Numbers," hosted by Dave Bookbinder. In this episode, we delve into the crucial topics of leadership, transformation, and culture with the dynamic Paul Epstein, founder of Win Monday and author of "Better Decisions Faster" and "The Power of Playing Offense."
Paul shares his extensive experience from 15 years in the NFL and NBA, where he held various roles, including Chief Revenue Officer for the San Francisco 49ers.
Paul also recounts his journey from the challenging beginnings with the LA Clippers, dubbed the "worst franchise in sports history," to breaking Super Bowl revenue records and opening Levi's Stadium. His experiences shaped his belief in the "playing offense" mindset in a defensive world, emphasizing the importance of making the next day your responsibility regardless of external adversities.
One of the episode's highlights is Paul's insightful discussion on the difference between a team of leaders and a leadership team. He shares a powerful story from his time with the 49ers, where a shift from a "no-because" to a "yes-if" mentality transformed the team's approach to challenges, fostering collaboration and innovation.
Paul also addresses the misconception that culture is solely top-down. He introduces the concept that "all culture is local," emphasizing that each individual can influence their immediate environment. By choosing warmth and positivity, employees at all levels can create a thriving culture, which Paul believes is a true competitive advantage.
In addition, Paul touches on the return on investment (ROI) of leadership, highlighting the significant impact of employee engagement on organizational performance. He shares compelling data and personal anecdotes to illustrate how effective leadership and a positive culture can drive business success.
The episode also explores Paul's role as the "WHY Coach" for the 49ers, where he helped individuals discover their purpose and values. He provides a practical framework for understanding and applying one's inner compass, which includes identifying one's why, values, beliefs, decisions, and actions.
For those interested in further engaging with Paul Epstein, visit paulepsteinspeaks.com for speaking engagements and books. Additionally, you can join his 52-week momentum journey at winmonday.win to start winning your Mondays and, subsequently, your weeks.
Don't miss this episode packed with actionable insights and inspiration for leaders at all levels. Tune in to "Behind the Numbers" and start transforming your leadership and organizational culture today.
About our guest:
PAUL EPSTEIN is a former high-level executive for multiple NFL and NBA teams and the bestselling author of “The Power of Playing Offense” and “Better Decisions Faster”. In 2022, he was named one of SUCCESS magazine’s top thought leaders who get results - alongside Tony Robbins, Brené Brown, Gary Vaynerchuk, and Mel Robbins, and his work has been featured on ESPN, NBC, Fox Business, and in USA Today.
In nearly 15 years as a leader in the world of pro sports, Paul helped take NBA teams from the bottom of the league in revenue to the top two, broke every premium sales revenue metric in Super Bowl history while in the NFL’s league office, opened a billion-dollar stadium, and founded the San Francisco 49ers Talent Academy, where he was known as the “Why Coach”.
As an award-winning keynote speaker, Paul’s impact continues off stage providing leadership development and culture transformation programs for companies and teams including Amazon, Disney, Johnson & Johnson, NASA, Los Angeles Lakers, and Dallas Cowboys.
He’s also the founder of the Win Monday community (an elite personal and professional development network) and host of the Win Monday podcast, where he interviews high-pro
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:20):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Behind the Numbers. My name is Dave Bookbinder,
and welcome back to the show where we dig deeper to understand what really matters most in business.
Today, we're going to be talking about some of my favorite topics,
leadership, transformation, culture, and I am super excited to welcome Paul
Epstein, who is the founder of Win Monday.
He's also the author of a couple of books, Better Decisions Faster,
and one of my latest and favorite books, The Power of Playing Offense.
(00:44):
Paul, welcome to Behind the Numbers.
Thanks so much, Dave. Fired up to be here. It's my pleasure.
I only scratched the surface on the intro about who you are.
So why don't you tell the audience a little bit about your background and Win Monday?
Absolutely. So what leads to Win Monday, and I'll talk all about that in a sec,
but the fast pass on the history is 15 years in the NFL and NBA,
(01:06):
not as the athlete. So we're lacking star power.
But I think from speaking in the same trenches as everybody that's listening
in, that same cloth that I was cut from.
So I came from the sales, the business development, from an entry to executive
level, working for three different NBA teams, go to the NFL League office,
break some Super Bowl revenue records, then help the 49ers as their chief revenue
(01:27):
officer open up Levi's Stadium.
And while I shared some of the trophies and some of the highlights,
there was also quite the opposite because my first job was for not the LA Lakers,
outborn and raised Angeleno.
No, it was for the other team at Staples Center, the LA Clippers,
which now there's some pretty infamous documentaries about and ownership and the whole thing.
(01:49):
When I started, Dave, ESPN called us the worst brand in sports.
Sports Illustrated front cover doubles down and says you're the worst franchise
in sports history. And we had to sell that.
But here was the big mentality. And here's what ends up fueling this playing
offense mindset in what is a very defensive world.
(02:09):
I always told myself if there's 82 games and we're losing the majority,
it is darn near impossible to only win 17 out of 82, but the Clippers somehow figured it out.
I can't even explain, but they figured it out.
And what I would tell myself and share with our team as I.
(02:31):
But they are our responsibility. So if you're listening in, the change,
the disruption, the uncertainty, all the things that are going sideways that
are largely out of your control and environmental, it could be an economy,
it could be a pandemic, it could be whatever, I just call that defense.
And I rally folks, whether on stages or podcasts, I say, how can we play offense
(02:51):
regardless of how defensive the environment gets?
And that was a principle that I learned at the Clippers by saying the losses
are not our fault, but let's make the next day our responsibility,
the mindset, the mood, the energy, the attitude, the effort.
And that's the same for everyone listening in and watching right now.
There's going to be adversity. There's going to be storms. Okay,
(03:12):
that's not your fault, but make it your responsibility.
And that's that ownership principle. And so from there, we kind of go on the fast pass.
New Orleans, then Hornets. Now they're the Pelicans. We almost lost the team
to permanent relocation.
I was at the Sacramento Kings and bang, there's a league-wide labor lockout.
How do you manage morale when it feels like people's livelihoods are taken away?
(03:32):
NFL league office, that was a pretty traditional thing. We achieved some pretty
high goals and standards, but there wasn't any big controversy.
But then my final stop before the eventual Jerry McGuire league,
when I was at the 49ers, we're kicking butt and we're generating billions of dollars.
And then the infamous Sunday where Colin Kaepernick takes a knee.
And here I am, I'm head of sales and service facing 70,000 fans along with my
(03:56):
team directly in the aftermath.
So if you want to talk about walking through fires, that was really the history of it.
And so, you know, there was a retreat that when I'm at the Niners, it changes my life.
I did the inner work of self-discovery, find your why, find your values.
I kind of got that inside out approach to leading myself and then scaling that out to leading others.
(04:18):
And I just got obsessed with it, Dave. I got obsessed with this self-discovery
and professional development and transformation space and growth space.
And really, that's the spirit of Win Monday as well.
The Monday after that retreat is when I made the decision and I took the action
to start the work of coaching the Y to others.
Eventually the 49ers called me the WHY coach and that passion project overtook my love for the day job.
(04:42):
I was decisive. I took action and I overcame all of the natural self-limiting
beliefs that go into a leap like that.
But where I've landed is that I've studied as I've worked now with Navy SEALs,
with Olympic athletes, with Fortune 100 CEOs and beyond, I've realized that
(05:04):
the key to all growth and transformation is winning Monday.
No matter the growth, the transformation or the outcome that you seek,
it starts by winning Monday because when you do that, you now have momentum to win the week.
And then you just rinse, repeat, and the compounding effect of 52 Mondays,
52 momentum-building weeks in the compounding space, you can imagine what's
(05:28):
possible after five, 10, 15 years.
And that's really the, the fast pass of the journey.
Yeah. And it's a fascinating journey. And I told you before we went on the air
here that I'm just about done reading the power playing offense.
And honestly, it's one of the best leadership books I've ever read.
It really is a playbook for organizations and how to be successful.
And it's a story about your background, which includes resilience,
(05:49):
authenticity, humility.
And I wanted to start the conversation about leadership, Paul,
by talking about something thing that you said that really resonated with me,
and I had to write it down when I was reading the book.
And you talk about the distinction between having a team of leaders and a leadership team.
Can you speak to that and maybe in there, sprinkle in a little bit about what
(06:10):
you believe leadership really should mean for the folks out there watching and listening?
Absolutely. So this insight came to me when I was at the 49ers and my boss or
president, his name's Al Guido. True story.
His last name is Guido and he's from Jersey. You can't even make that up, okay?
True. true. But Al gathers all of us up in the boardroom and it's the typical C-suite meeting.
(06:34):
So head of sales, head of marketing, head of ops, and just, you know,
you scale that out. You got a dozen leaders in the room.
And at the time we were on the precipice of opening up Levi's stadium,
which was touted to be one of the most innovative and tech forward and progressive
venues and facilities that the industry had ever seen. And he was worried.
He was worried because we came from a world of operating and we came from a
(06:57):
more vanilla environment, but this is like climbing Everest.
And this is something that the industry had never seen in terms of the goals
and the pressures and the expectations. And he said, I'm worried.
He said, we're just showing up as independent leaders of teams.
I'm worried that we're not showing up as a team of leaders.
So you're running your lane, you're running your lane, you're running your lane,
(07:19):
you're running your lane. and then, so not only does that create silos and a
lack of camaraderie, connection, collaboration and trust and empathy,
all the things that we know drive high performance teams and we can sustain that high performance.
Here was the kicker. He also said that siloed mindset is getting us too comfortable.
We're not challenging each other because we're not connecting enough.
(07:41):
And he said, we have become too good at saying no because, meaning,
and this for everyone watching and listening, Have you ever heard these words,
especially in business?
We've always done it this way before.
Of course you have. I have heard it a million times. And guess what?
On my worst day, I've said it.
(08:04):
And when you say things like we've always done it before, you're embodying a no-because spirit.
So he challenged us to say, gone are the days of no-because,
in are the days of yes-if.
So yes-if versus no-because.
And that yes-if spirit brought us together, it gelled us together,
(08:27):
and that's how we became one team of leaders versus separate leaders of separate teams.
So that's kind of the distinction there.
And if you're watching or listening, I fundamentally believe that the leadership
definition and what makes a great leader, we shouldn't overcomplicate it.
(08:49):
And we also don't need a dictionary because if you look at a dictionary,
Webster would tell you rank, role, title, authority.
So it's a very kind of old school way of thinking about leadership.
But I want to actually ask our audience, and I'm asking you as,
again, you're watching, you're listening, to think of the greatest leader that
you've ever had. Who is that person?
Whether personal or professional. It could be anybody.
(09:12):
A parent, a coach, a mentor, an advisor, a former boss, a current boss, whoever.
Who is the greatest leader that has ever directly impacted your life?
And ask yourself, what did they do? Why did you just think of that person?
I'm talking about actions and behaviors.
And if you were to write down, take a pen out and a piece of paper and write
(09:36):
down the qualities and the characteristics that you most respected and admired
about them, and you're going to come up with things, because I've done this thousands of times,
they listened, they cared, they had compassion,
they challenged me, they looked after me as a whole person, they had passion,
excitement, and I could keep going.
All those things that you just wrote about what the greatest leader in your
(09:56):
life did is the job description of every great leader.
Every single person can do those things. They're accessible.
No rank, role, title, or authority is required.
All leadership starts with self. And if that person you just thought of wouldn't
be effective at leading themselves, you would have never followed them to the
end of the earth and back.
(10:16):
So as a result, before you lead others, you must first lead yourself.
We've heard that before, but we can't define it. Instead of making up the definition,
actually be intentional.
Think of the greatest leader that you've ever had. Write the words down that
describe them on their best day, the reason you would follow them anywhere and
everywhere, and then that can be your new job description.
(10:38):
You could be a CEO, you could be a VP, you could be an intern,
and all of these behaviors are a million percent relevant, applicable, and accessible.
Couldn't agree with you more and as you were saying a couple thoughts first
of all if you if you're saying the because that's the
way we've always done it i actually called that out in my first book by
by accusing the person saying it of either being
(10:59):
lazy stupid or both and to your point about
what defines leadership i say it all the time um working with leaders that treated
with our team with empathy respect and appreciation we'd walk through fire for
them paul we're bumping up on a commercial but tell everybody out there how
they can connect with you if they want to learn more about you where they can
get the books and how they can even maybe invite you to come speak for their organizations.
(11:23):
Absolutely. So the home to everything is paulepsteinspeaks.com.
Anything and everything is there.
And here's my invitation for everybody that wants to make this as sticky as possible.
If what I have said resonates deeply, head over to winmonday.win.
That's winmonday.win. Name an email. You will be on a 52-week journey so we
(11:43):
can win Monday together.
And together, we create momentum to win every week. So that's winmonday.win.
And paulepsteinspeaks.com is where where you can go for speaking in books and all that good stuff.
Awesome. Thank you. Paul, you sit tight. Don't go anywhere. Folks out there
in the audience, don't go anywhere either. We will be right back on Behind the
Numbers after this quick break.
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(14:29):
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And welcome back to behind the numbers i'm dave bookbinder and
(15:13):
we are talking with paul epstein who among other things is the author of the
power of playing offense uh paul i want to just jump right in here because there's
so much to cover and oh so little time uh i want to talk to you about culture
as a competitive advantage it's a recurring theme throughout your journey and through your writing.
Talk a little bit about that for the audience because the audience knows that
(15:35):
I speak about that all the time and connecting the dots between leadership,
culture, and the value of a business. What's your perspective?
I believe that culture is our competitive advantage when it's done right.
I also believe it's what cripples countless organizations that have never gotten
it right or have drifted away from that original point of purpose and mission
(15:56):
and prioritizing people where it's not.
When you hear people first, it's one of two things. It's either a way of life
or it's a bumper sticker.
Every organization does the latter. Do you do the former? And that's really going to be the key.
But there's a common misconception, Dave, that I do want to call out.
And then I want to come with an insight that I believe can be transformative
for every single person's culture that's tuning in today.
(16:20):
The misperception, the myth that's out there is all culture is top down.
And I'm going to call BS on that because that would mean that for 90% of an
org chart, we're just prisoners to, well, if I have a great C-suite,
I got lucky, then we have a great culture.
And if we have a toxic C-suite, then we have a toxic culture.
And that's a very defeating reality Because I will tell you,
(16:40):
there are a lot more non-optimal, if I'm being polite, non-optimal cultures than optimal cultures.
So that means like, oh, because I work in a mid to large size organization,
I literally just have to trust that the top five to 10 people are going to dictate
the tone and the environment and the energy of every single room that we walk into.
Fundamentally false. because while I do believe that the folks at the top of
(17:05):
the North chart influence and they may have a heavier influence on a temperature
in a room, here's a perspective.
I did a consulting project for two years with one of the top two airlines here in the United States.
They have 120,000 employees, 6,000 positional leaders.
I go through training workshops over a two-year period with all 6,000 leaders,
(17:27):
50 to 100 people at a time, boom, boom, boom, two years. Awesome.
And what I realized is when I would visit their headquarters,
I would walk in a floor five and they were all high-fiving.
When I walked in a floor six, watch out, boss is around the corner.
And Dave, the crazy thing is floor five and six weren't just the same company,
(17:47):
weren't just the same airline.
Floor five and six were the same department, but a drastically different weather system.
Floor five was warm and green and cozy.
Floor six was frigid and cold.
And that taught me that all culture is local.
All culture is local. down to the floor of the building, down to the individual.
(18:14):
So when you and I and everyone watching and tuning in, when we walk in a room
or we hop on a Zoom meeting or whatever we do, we could either warm it up or we could cool it off.
The question is, are we aware of our own temperature?
And when you own your temperature, you own your weather system.
When you own your your weather system, you own your life.
(18:37):
Imagine a team or organization where everybody, every day, intentionally chose warmth.
I choose warmth. It attracts warmth. I invite warmth.
The person to my left and right does it as well. And that is how culture scales.
You own your weather system. You intentionally choose warmth every day,
(18:59):
every room, every relationship.
And if the person to to your left and right does it as well.
That's how culture becomes competitive advantage. And that is a culture that cannot fail.
Yeah. And it's fascinating. That was one of the other things I wrote down as
I was reading the book, Culture is Local, because it is a misconception.
It does need to start from the top, I think. But I've interviewed so many folks
(19:20):
in organizations that are known for creating good cultures.
And, you know, they whisper to me, yeah, it looks that way outwardly.
But, you know, Joe and Raleigh didn't get that memo and their office isn't the
same, so absolutely spot on. Culture is definitely local.
So Paul, I want to talk about, we'll call it the ROI, the return on investment of leadership.
(19:40):
And I write about and speak about this similar topic about how the connecting
the dots between leadership creates good culture, which creates engagement,
discretionary effort, again, impact on the value of the business.
What's your take on all of that? Talk about the ROI. I mean,
you've shared great data in your book that I share and others have heard about
(20:03):
employee engagement being low at roughly 30%. I'm going to let you talk.
I'm going to shut up. Talk a little bit about the ROI of leadership.
There's billions of dollars of impact and all of this is inside of my book,
The Power of Playing Offense.
But as the general statistics and research, and the sad part is it's been relatively
(20:24):
consistent for decades.
So this is not a 2024 problem.
It's not a 2000s problem. I'm talking going back to pre-turn of the century
that this is just what it is.
Seven out of 10 people don't love what they do, who they do it with, who they do it for.
And so you have people doing the bare minimum to keep the paycheck,
keep safety, keep security, keep comfort, keep all of that.
(20:47):
There's a gap. There's a gap of happiness. There's a gap of fulfillment.
There's a gap in this case of care.
And I'm not knocking the people. I'm actually knocking the system.
And then the system that creates doing just enough to get by,
we're literally getting, my belief is about 40% of the capacity of a person's
(21:10):
gifts, talents, abilities, and skills.
They are doing the bare minimum because they're not being cultivated and grown
and developed to be the best version of themselves.
They are only looked at as a producer and a performer versus as an entire person and human being.
And when people think about the core relationship, like here's a good example for you, Dave.
(21:31):
I've been told the same critical feedback from two different bosses,
one that I knew had my back and one that I knew didn't.
They said the exact Exact same words to me in very tough moments where maybe
I didn't show up at my best.
And with one person, I'm going to pardon my, I won't even say pardon my French.
I'll clean up the language. But I said, what an a-hole.
(21:51):
Because I was like, dude, like, I know you don't have my back.
With the other, I said, thanks for telling me.
Like, that sucked to hear, but I appreciate you just shooting straight.
I'm going to dust myself off and I'll be fine tomorrow.
Keep the feedback coming. And it was the same words. And I think that's kind
of the ROI. When you talk about the ROI, there's nothing that I wouldn't do
for the best leaders and best cultures and best teams that I've ever been a part of.
(22:14):
But then there's been other parts of my life where I'm still the same high performer, high achiever.
I have unshakable confidence. I have all these things that make me uniquely who I am.
But Paul on his worst day is susceptible to just becoming a product of the environment.
On my worst day, I will become a part of a negative or toxic environment,
maybe plus or 10 or 20%, but I'll still do it. We're all prisoners of that aspect.
(22:40):
And so my piece is, let's just talk in very simple terms here.
Would you rather get 40% out of each person's capacity, but you have a filled locker room?
Or would you rather hold people to the highest standard, but love on them and
care on them and give them a culture that inspires them?
And now we're getting 80, 90, 100%. And that's not going to be for everybody
(23:05):
because it's going to require a high standard of performance and expectation.
And we're going to have to own it and live up to it. and we're going to have
to care deeply about it. But at least now you're getting a greater capacity.
And even if some folks hop out of the locker room, at least now you have the
right locker room. And that's really the ROI.
(23:26):
It's the bus, people on the bus, engagement on the bus, all in mentality on
the bus, entrepreneurial spirit on the bus.
And then all the things like happiness and fulfillment and purpose and impact,
all of that starts to take care of itself. but it starts by making people feel like they matter.
Yeah, 100%. I couldn't agree with you more.
(23:48):
Paul, tell the folks in the audience how they can connect with you,
where they can get your books, and what's the best way to get an invitation to speak?
Absolutely. So for speaking, books, all that good stuff, paulepsteinspeaks.com
is the home and the hub for all information.
And then if today has inspired you, if it has resonated deeply,
(24:12):
this talk about leadership and teams and culture and performance and becoming
the best version of ourselves, then I invite you to Win Monday.
And Win Monday can be found at winmonday.win. So we kept it pretty darn simple, winmonday.win.
What that's going to do, name an email, you will jump on a 52-week momentum journey.
And this is just a free gift from my heart. I call it Monday Momentum because
(24:33):
my belief is when we win Monday together, now we have momentum to win the week.
And then we repeat the cycle the following Monday and the following Monday and the following Monday.
So winmonday.win would be how we can have the stickiest relationship possible.
And as I say, meet me at the 50.
Yeah, it's a great expression, meet me at the 50. And if there is a knob to
(24:55):
turn the employee engagement to the right just a little bit,
I think your book, The Power Playing Offense, gives you the ability to grab
that knob and twist it to the right. Great.
Paul, I want to shift a little bit to your role as the WHY coach of the San Francisco 49ers.
Everybody is familiar with start with Y, you know, the Simon Sinek expression.
And it's a popular expression in business and not everybody really takes it seriously.
(25:19):
Share a little bit about your role as the WHY coach and what the impact was on
both you and the organization.
I believe we all have a compass, a compass that serves as our personal GPS.
It's really our operating system.
And it was at a retreat when I was chief revenue officer of the 49ers.
That retreat ended up changing my life because it was the first time that I
(25:41):
did work on my inner compass.
So for everyone that's tuning in, here's what our compass looks like from the
inside out. At its heart, the core of it, you have your why.
Other people call it your purpose. Then the next layer out, you have your values.
Together, your why and values represent who you are.
So why and values equals who you are. Then the next level out,
(26:03):
you've got beliefs, a belief system.
These are molded through your life experiences to date. Your beliefs represent what you stand for.
So, so far, we've got why and values equals who you are, beliefs equals what you stand for.
And then the two outermost layers, the ones that are more easily visible,
even for a new relationship, they are decisions and actions.
(26:26):
And together, your decisions and actions represent how you show up. So I'll sum it all up.
You've got why to values, to beliefs, to decisions, to actions.
The first two are who you are. The next one is what you stand for.
The outer two are how you show up. And the best, most consistent,
most confident, most authentic people in the world, the ones that balance confidence
(26:53):
with humility in a perfect fashion.
It's because they know who they are and they bet on themselves and they bet
on themselves because they know what they represent, what they stand for from the inside out.
They tether their decisions and actions to their inner core.
So when I took the Jerry Maguire leap from sports, when I bet on myself to become an entrepreneur.
(27:17):
When I went back to school, which is something I said I would never do.
But now that I'm placing all these massive bets personally and professionally,
I literally put them through the filter of my values at my core.
And that workshop, that retreat, that's why it had such a transformative effect on my life.
And Dave, the cool part is I decided to, as a passion project,
(27:41):
double down on coaching the white others the Monday after the retreat.
So I share from stages all over the world now that there is a Monday that changed
my life. And today's conversation can have an equally transformative effect on yours.
And after I go back to the 49ers office, I start to preach about the why and
my team starts to say, I want some of that.
Then some of the water cooler buzz starts, then some of the football coaches
(28:03):
and some of the players, then HR approaches me and says, what do you think of coaching the why?
To our onboarding employees and that's how
i became known as the WHY coach and it eventually does lead
to the leap and it leads to this gift the purpose that i'm
just paying forward and me being a WHY coach the greatest
graduation of my life from career to calling yeah and for folks in the audience
(28:24):
who are thinking maybe i don't know if i have a mission and purpose and this
why thing sounds sort of amorphous and woo-woo i will tell you that in the power
playing offense there literally is a playbook that will help you discover your
why and what matters for you paul Paul, I'm getting the sign.
Unfortunately, we're out of time here, but I can't thank you enough for joining
us today on Behind the Numbers.
Thank you so much, Dave. Fired up to be here. It was a great conversation.
(28:49):
Again, we've been talking with Paul Epstein. Definitely check out his books.
You've got the website, winmonday.win, and definitely subscribe to that.
I'm sure you're going to get some great inspiration in your inbox.
I want to thank Emma for running the board. Great job today back there in the darkness, Emma.
I want to thank the audience out there. For you folks watching and listening,
we can't do this program without you. Really appreciate it.
(29:11):
If any of this conversation about leadership resonated with you and you're interested
in reaching out to Paul, reach out to me also on LinkedIn.
I write about this and speak about this as well and would love to get your perspective.
So you can find me on LinkedIn.
That's all we have for today, gang. We'll see you next time on Behind the Numbers. Take care.
Music.
(00:20):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Behind the Numbers. My name is Dave Bookbinder,
and welcome back to the show where we dig deeper to understand what really matters most in business.
Today, we're going to be talking about some of my favorite topics,
leadership, transformation, culture, and I am super excited to welcome Paul
Epstein, who is the founder of Win Monday.
He's also the author of a couple of books, Better Decisions Faster,
and one of my latest and favorite books, The Power of Playing Offense.
(00:44):
Paul, welcome to Behind the Numbers.
Thanks so much, Dave. Fired up to be here. It's my pleasure.
I only scratched the surface on the intro about who you are.
So why don't you tell the audience a little bit about your background and Win Monday?
Absolutely. So what leads to Win Monday, and I'll talk all about that in a sec,
but the fast pass on the history is 15 years in the NFL and NBA,
(01:06):
not as the athlete. So we're lacking star power.
But I think from speaking in the same trenches as everybody that's listening
in, that same cloth that I was cut from.
So I came from the sales, the business development, from an entry to executive
level, working for three different NBA teams, go to the NFL League office,
break some Super Bowl revenue records, then help the 49ers as their chief revenue
(01:27):
officer open up Levi's Stadium.
And while I shared some of the trophies and some of the highlights,
there was also quite the opposite because my first job was for not the LA Lakers,
outborn and raised Angeleno.
No, it was for the other team at Staples Center, the LA Clippers,
which now there's some pretty infamous documentaries about and ownership and the whole thing.
(01:49):
When I started, Dave, ESPN called us the worst brand in sports.
Sports Illustrated front cover doubles down and says you're the worst franchise
in sports history. And we had to sell that.
But here was the big mentality. And here's what ends up fueling this playing
offense mindset in what is a very defensive world.
(02:09):
I always told myself if there's 82 games and we're losing the majority,
it is darn near impossible to only win 17 out of 82, but the Clippers somehow figured it out.
I can't even explain, but they figured it out.
And what I would tell myself and share with our team as I.
(02:31):
But they are our responsibility. So if you're listening in, the change,
the disruption, the uncertainty, all the things that are going sideways that
are largely out of your control and environmental, it could be an economy,
it could be a pandemic, it could be whatever, I just call that defense.
And I rally folks, whether on stages or podcasts, I say, how can we play offense
(02:51):
regardless of how defensive the environment gets?
And that was a principle that I learned at the Clippers by saying the losses
are not our fault, but let's make the next day our responsibility,
the mindset, the mood, the energy, the attitude, the effort.
And that's the same for everyone listening in and watching right now.
There's going to be adversity. There's going to be storms. Okay,
(03:12):
that's not your fault, but make it your responsibility.
And that's that ownership principle. And so from there, we kind of go on the fast pass.
New Orleans, then Hornets. Now they're the Pelicans. We almost lost the team
to permanent relocation.
I was at the Sacramento Kings and bang, there's a league-wide labor lockout.
How do you manage morale when it feels like people's livelihoods are taken away?
(03:32):
NFL league office, that was a pretty traditional thing. We achieved some pretty
high goals and standards, but there wasn't any big controversy.
But then my final stop before the eventual Jerry McGuire league,
when I was at the 49ers, we're kicking butt and we're generating billions of dollars.
And then the infamous Sunday where Colin Kaepernick takes a knee.
And here I am, I'm head of sales and service facing 70,000 fans along with my
(03:56):
team directly in the aftermath.
So if you want to talk about walking through fires, that was really the history of it.
And so, you know, there was a retreat that when I'm at the Niners, it changes my life.
I did the inner work of self-discovery, find your why, find your values.
I kind of got that inside out approach to leading myself and then scaling that out to leading others.
(04:18):
And I just got obsessed with it, Dave. I got obsessed with this self-discovery
and professional development and transformation space and growth space.
And really, that's the spirit of Win Monday as well.
The Monday after that retreat is when I made the decision and I took the action
to start the work of coaching the Y to others.
Eventually the 49ers called me the WHY coach and that passion project overtook my love for the day job.
(04:42):
I was decisive. I took action and I overcame all of the natural self-limiting
beliefs that go into a leap like that.
But where I've landed is that I've studied as I've worked now with Navy SEALs,
with Olympic athletes, with Fortune 100 CEOs and beyond, I've realized that
(05:04):
the key to all growth and transformation is winning Monday.
No matter the growth, the transformation or the outcome that you seek,
it starts by winning Monday because when you do that, you now have momentum to win the week.
And then you just rinse, repeat, and the compounding effect of 52 Mondays,
52 momentum-building weeks in the compounding space, you can imagine what's
(05:28):
possible after five, 10, 15 years.
And that's really the, the fast pass of the journey.
Yeah. And it's a fascinating journey. And I told you before we went on the air
here that I'm just about done reading the power playing offense.
And honestly, it's one of the best leadership books I've ever read.
It really is a playbook for organizations and how to be successful.
And it's a story about your background, which includes resilience,
(05:49):
authenticity, humility.
And I wanted to start the conversation about leadership, Paul,
by talking about something thing that you said that really resonated with me,
and I had to write it down when I was reading the book.
And you talk about the distinction between having a team of leaders and a leadership team.
Can you speak to that and maybe in there, sprinkle in a little bit about what
(06:10):
you believe leadership really should mean for the folks out there watching and listening?
Absolutely. So this insight came to me when I was at the 49ers and my boss or
president, his name's Al Guido. True story.
His last name is Guido and he's from Jersey. You can't even make that up, okay?
True. true. But Al gathers all of us up in the boardroom and it's the typical C-suite meeting.
(06:34):
So head of sales, head of marketing, head of ops, and just, you know,
you scale that out. You got a dozen leaders in the room.
And at the time we were on the precipice of opening up Levi's stadium,
which was touted to be one of the most innovative and tech forward and progressive
venues and facilities that the industry had ever seen. And he was worried.
He was worried because we came from a world of operating and we came from a
(06:57):
more vanilla environment, but this is like climbing Everest.
And this is something that the industry had never seen in terms of the goals
and the pressures and the expectations. And he said, I'm worried.
He said, we're just showing up as independent leaders of teams.
I'm worried that we're not showing up as a team of leaders.
So you're running your lane, you're running your lane, you're running your lane,
(07:19):
you're running your lane. and then, so not only does that create silos and a
lack of camaraderie, connection, collaboration and trust and empathy,
all the things that we know drive high performance teams and we can sustain that high performance.
Here was the kicker. He also said that siloed mindset is getting us too comfortable.
We're not challenging each other because we're not connecting enough.
(07:41):
And he said, we have become too good at saying no because, meaning,
and this for everyone watching and listening, Have you ever heard these words,
especially in business?
We've always done it this way before.
Of course you have. I have heard it a million times. And guess what?
On my worst day, I've said it.
(08:04):
And when you say things like we've always done it before, you're embodying a no-because spirit.
So he challenged us to say, gone are the days of no-because,
in are the days of yes-if.
So yes-if versus no-because.
And that yes-if spirit brought us together, it gelled us together,
(08:27):
and that's how we became one team of leaders versus separate leaders of separate teams.
So that's kind of the distinction there.
And if you're watching or listening, I fundamentally believe that the leadership
definition and what makes a great leader, we shouldn't overcomplicate it.
(08:49):
And we also don't need a dictionary because if you look at a dictionary,
Webster would tell you rank, role, title, authority.
So it's a very kind of old school way of thinking about leadership.
But I want to actually ask our audience, and I'm asking you as,
again, you're watching, you're listening, to think of the greatest leader that
you've ever had. Who is that person?
Whether personal or professional. It could be anybody.
(09:12):
A parent, a coach, a mentor, an advisor, a former boss, a current boss, whoever.
Who is the greatest leader that has ever directly impacted your life?
And ask yourself, what did they do? Why did you just think of that person?
I'm talking about actions and behaviors.
And if you were to write down, take a pen out and a piece of paper and write
(09:36):
down the qualities and the characteristics that you most respected and admired
about them, and you're going to come up with things, because I've done this thousands of times,
they listened, they cared, they had compassion,
they challenged me, they looked after me as a whole person, they had passion,
excitement, and I could keep going.
All those things that you just wrote about what the greatest leader in your
(09:56):
life did is the job description of every great leader.
Every single person can do those things. They're accessible.
No rank, role, title, or authority is required.
All leadership starts with self. And if that person you just thought of wouldn't
be effective at leading themselves, you would have never followed them to the
end of the earth and back.
(10:16):
So as a result, before you lead others, you must first lead yourself.
We've heard that before, but we can't define it. Instead of making up the definition,
actually be intentional.
Think of the greatest leader that you've ever had. Write the words down that
describe them on their best day, the reason you would follow them anywhere and
everywhere, and then that can be your new job description.
(10:38):
You could be a CEO, you could be a VP, you could be an intern,
and all of these behaviors are a million percent relevant, applicable, and accessible.
Couldn't agree with you more and as you were saying a couple thoughts first
of all if you if you're saying the because that's the
way we've always done it i actually called that out in my first book by
by accusing the person saying it of either being
(10:59):
lazy stupid or both and to your point about
what defines leadership i say it all the time um working with leaders that treated
with our team with empathy respect and appreciation we'd walk through fire for
them paul we're bumping up on a commercial but tell everybody out there how
they can connect with you if they want to learn more about you where they can
get the books and how they can even maybe invite you to come speak for their organizations.
(11:23):
Absolutely. So the home to everything is paulepsteinspeaks.com.
Anything and everything is there.
And here's my invitation for everybody that wants to make this as sticky as possible.
If what I have said resonates deeply, head over to winmonday.win.
That's winmonday.win. Name an email. You will be on a 52-week journey so we
(11:43):
can win Monday together.
And together, we create momentum to win every week. So that's winmonday.win.
And paulepsteinspeaks.com is where where you can go for speaking in books and all that good stuff.
Awesome. Thank you. Paul, you sit tight. Don't go anywhere. Folks out there
in the audience, don't go anywhere either. We will be right back on Behind the
Numbers after this quick break.
(12:04):
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Hi, my name is Dave and I am Metro. Hi, I'm Andrea. I am Metro.
(14:29):
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Music.
(14:51):
I am Michael Barreto, president and founder of Metropolis Passive Logistics. And we are Metro.
Music.
And welcome back to behind the numbers i'm dave bookbinder and
(15:13):
we are talking with paul epstein who among other things is the author of the
power of playing offense uh paul i want to just jump right in here because there's
so much to cover and oh so little time uh i want to talk to you about culture
as a competitive advantage it's a recurring theme throughout your journey and through your writing.
Talk a little bit about that for the audience because the audience knows that
(15:35):
I speak about that all the time and connecting the dots between leadership,
culture, and the value of a business. What's your perspective?
I believe that culture is our competitive advantage when it's done right.
I also believe it's what cripples countless organizations that have never gotten
it right or have drifted away from that original point of purpose and mission
(15:56):
and prioritizing people where it's not.
When you hear people first, it's one of two things. It's either a way of life
or it's a bumper sticker.
Every organization does the latter. Do you do the former? And that's really going to be the key.
But there's a common misconception, Dave, that I do want to call out.
And then I want to come with an insight that I believe can be transformative
for every single person's culture that's tuning in today.
(16:20):
The misperception, the myth that's out there is all culture is top down.
And I'm going to call BS on that because that would mean that for 90% of an
org chart, we're just prisoners to, well, if I have a great C-suite,
I got lucky, then we have a great culture.
And if we have a toxic C-suite, then we have a toxic culture.
And that's a very defeating reality Because I will tell you,
(16:40):
there are a lot more non-optimal, if I'm being polite, non-optimal cultures than optimal cultures.
So that means like, oh, because I work in a mid to large size organization,
I literally just have to trust that the top five to 10 people are going to dictate
the tone and the environment and the energy of every single room that we walk into.
Fundamentally false. because while I do believe that the folks at the top of
(17:05):
the North chart influence and they may have a heavier influence on a temperature
in a room, here's a perspective.
I did a consulting project for two years with one of the top two airlines here in the United States.
They have 120,000 employees, 6,000 positional leaders.
I go through training workshops over a two-year period with all 6,000 leaders,
(17:27):
50 to 100 people at a time, boom, boom, boom, two years. Awesome.
And what I realized is when I would visit their headquarters,
I would walk in a floor five and they were all high-fiving.
When I walked in a floor six, watch out, boss is around the corner.
And Dave, the crazy thing is floor five and six weren't just the same company,
(17:47):
weren't just the same airline.
Floor five and six were the same department, but a drastically different weather system.
Floor five was warm and green and cozy.
Floor six was frigid and cold.
And that taught me that all culture is local.
All culture is local. down to the floor of the building, down to the individual.
(18:14):
So when you and I and everyone watching and tuning in, when we walk in a room
or we hop on a Zoom meeting or whatever we do, we could either warm it up or we could cool it off.
The question is, are we aware of our own temperature?
And when you own your temperature, you own your weather system.
When you own your your weather system, you own your life.
(18:37):
Imagine a team or organization where everybody, every day, intentionally chose warmth.
I choose warmth. It attracts warmth. I invite warmth.
The person to my left and right does it as well. And that is how culture scales.
You own your weather system. You intentionally choose warmth every day,
(18:59):
every room, every relationship.
And if the person to to your left and right does it as well.
That's how culture becomes competitive advantage. And that is a culture that cannot fail.
Yeah. And it's fascinating. That was one of the other things I wrote down as
I was reading the book, Culture is Local, because it is a misconception.
It does need to start from the top, I think. But I've interviewed so many folks
(19:20):
in organizations that are known for creating good cultures.
And, you know, they whisper to me, yeah, it looks that way outwardly.
But, you know, Joe and Raleigh didn't get that memo and their office isn't the
same, so absolutely spot on. Culture is definitely local.
So Paul, I want to talk about, we'll call it the ROI, the return on investment of leadership.
(19:40):
And I write about and speak about this similar topic about how the connecting
the dots between leadership creates good culture, which creates engagement,
discretionary effort, again, impact on the value of the business.
What's your take on all of that? Talk about the ROI. I mean,
you've shared great data in your book that I share and others have heard about
(20:03):
employee engagement being low at roughly 30%. I'm going to let you talk.
I'm going to shut up. Talk a little bit about the ROI of leadership.
There's billions of dollars of impact and all of this is inside of my book,
The Power of Playing Offense.
But as the general statistics and research, and the sad part is it's been relatively
(20:24):
consistent for decades.
So this is not a 2024 problem.
It's not a 2000s problem. I'm talking going back to pre-turn of the century
that this is just what it is.
Seven out of 10 people don't love what they do, who they do it with, who they do it for.
And so you have people doing the bare minimum to keep the paycheck,
keep safety, keep security, keep comfort, keep all of that.
(20:47):
There's a gap. There's a gap of happiness. There's a gap of fulfillment.
There's a gap in this case of care.
And I'm not knocking the people. I'm actually knocking the system.
And then the system that creates doing just enough to get by,
we're literally getting, my belief is about 40% of the capacity of a person's
(21:10):
gifts, talents, abilities, and skills.
They are doing the bare minimum because they're not being cultivated and grown
and developed to be the best version of themselves.
They are only looked at as a producer and a performer versus as an entire person and human being.
And when people think about the core relationship, like here's a good example for you, Dave.
(21:31):
I've been told the same critical feedback from two different bosses,
one that I knew had my back and one that I knew didn't.
They said the exact Exact same words to me in very tough moments where maybe
I didn't show up at my best.
And with one person, I'm going to pardon my, I won't even say pardon my French.
I'll clean up the language. But I said, what an a-hole.
(21:51):
Because I was like, dude, like, I know you don't have my back.
With the other, I said, thanks for telling me.
Like, that sucked to hear, but I appreciate you just shooting straight.
I'm going to dust myself off and I'll be fine tomorrow.
Keep the feedback coming. And it was the same words. And I think that's kind
of the ROI. When you talk about the ROI, there's nothing that I wouldn't do
for the best leaders and best cultures and best teams that I've ever been a part of.
(22:14):
But then there's been other parts of my life where I'm still the same high performer, high achiever.
I have unshakable confidence. I have all these things that make me uniquely who I am.
But Paul on his worst day is susceptible to just becoming a product of the environment.
On my worst day, I will become a part of a negative or toxic environment,
maybe plus or 10 or 20%, but I'll still do it. We're all prisoners of that aspect.
(22:40):
And so my piece is, let's just talk in very simple terms here.
Would you rather get 40% out of each person's capacity, but you have a filled locker room?
Or would you rather hold people to the highest standard, but love on them and
care on them and give them a culture that inspires them?
And now we're getting 80, 90, 100%. And that's not going to be for everybody
(23:05):
because it's going to require a high standard of performance and expectation.
And we're going to have to own it and live up to it. and we're going to have
to care deeply about it. But at least now you're getting a greater capacity.
And even if some folks hop out of the locker room, at least now you have the
right locker room. And that's really the ROI.
(23:26):
It's the bus, people on the bus, engagement on the bus, all in mentality on
the bus, entrepreneurial spirit on the bus.
And then all the things like happiness and fulfillment and purpose and impact,
all of that starts to take care of itself. but it starts by making people feel like they matter.
Yeah, 100%. I couldn't agree with you more.
(23:48):
Paul, tell the folks in the audience how they can connect with you,
where they can get your books, and what's the best way to get an invitation to speak?
Absolutely. So for speaking, books, all that good stuff, paulepsteinspeaks.com
is the home and the hub for all information.
And then if today has inspired you, if it has resonated deeply,
(24:12):
this talk about leadership and teams and culture and performance and becoming
the best version of ourselves, then I invite you to Win Monday.
And Win Monday can be found at winmonday.win. So we kept it pretty darn simple, winmonday.win.
What that's going to do, name an email, you will jump on a 52-week momentum journey.
And this is just a free gift from my heart. I call it Monday Momentum because
(24:33):
my belief is when we win Monday together, now we have momentum to win the week.
And then we repeat the cycle the following Monday and the following Monday and the following Monday.
So winmonday.win would be how we can have the stickiest relationship possible.
And as I say, meet me at the 50.
Yeah, it's a great expression, meet me at the 50. And if there is a knob to
(24:55):
turn the employee engagement to the right just a little bit,
I think your book, The Power Playing Offense, gives you the ability to grab
that knob and twist it to the right. Great.
Paul, I want to shift a little bit to your role as the WHY coach of the San Francisco 49ers.
Everybody is familiar with start with Y, you know, the Simon Sinek expression.
And it's a popular expression in business and not everybody really takes it seriously.
(25:19):
Share a little bit about your role as the WHY coach and what the impact was on
both you and the organization.
I believe we all have a compass, a compass that serves as our personal GPS.
It's really our operating system.
And it was at a retreat when I was chief revenue officer of the 49ers.
That retreat ended up changing my life because it was the first time that I
(25:41):
did work on my inner compass.
So for everyone that's tuning in, here's what our compass looks like from the
inside out. At its heart, the core of it, you have your why.
Other people call it your purpose. Then the next layer out, you have your values.
Together, your why and values represent who you are.
So why and values equals who you are. Then the next level out,
(26:03):
you've got beliefs, a belief system.
These are molded through your life experiences to date. Your beliefs represent what you stand for.
So, so far, we've got why and values equals who you are, beliefs equals what you stand for.
And then the two outermost layers, the ones that are more easily visible,
even for a new relationship, they are decisions and actions.
(26:26):
And together, your decisions and actions represent how you show up. So I'll sum it all up.
You've got why to values, to beliefs, to decisions, to actions.
The first two are who you are. The next one is what you stand for.
The outer two are how you show up. And the best, most consistent,
most confident, most authentic people in the world, the ones that balance confidence
(26:53):
with humility in a perfect fashion.
It's because they know who they are and they bet on themselves and they bet
on themselves because they know what they represent, what they stand for from the inside out.
They tether their decisions and actions to their inner core.
So when I took the Jerry Maguire leap from sports, when I bet on myself to become an entrepreneur.
(27:17):
When I went back to school, which is something I said I would never do.
But now that I'm placing all these massive bets personally and professionally,
I literally put them through the filter of my values at my core.
And that workshop, that retreat, that's why it had such a transformative effect on my life.
And Dave, the cool part is I decided to, as a passion project,
(27:41):
double down on coaching the white others the Monday after the retreat.
So I share from stages all over the world now that there is a Monday that changed
my life. And today's conversation can have an equally transformative effect on yours.
And after I go back to the 49ers office, I start to preach about the why and
my team starts to say, I want some of that.
Then some of the water cooler buzz starts, then some of the football coaches
(28:03):
and some of the players, then HR approaches me and says, what do you think of coaching the why?
To our onboarding employees and that's how
i became known as the WHY coach and it eventually does lead
to the leap and it leads to this gift the purpose that i'm
just paying forward and me being a WHY coach the greatest
graduation of my life from career to calling yeah and for folks in the audience
(28:24):
who are thinking maybe i don't know if i have a mission and purpose and this
why thing sounds sort of amorphous and woo-woo i will tell you that in the power
playing offense there literally is a playbook that will help you discover your
why and what matters for you paul Paul, I'm getting the sign.
Unfortunately, we're out of time here, but I can't thank you enough for joining
us today on Behind the Numbers.
Thank you so much, Dave. Fired up to be here. It was a great conversation.
(28:49):
Again, we've been talking with Paul Epstein. Definitely check out his books.
You've got the website, winmonday.win, and definitely subscribe to that.
I'm sure you're going to get some great inspiration in your inbox.
I want to thank Emma for running the board. Great job today back there in the darkness, Emma.
I want to thank the audience out there. For you folks watching and listening,
we can't do this program without you. Really appreciate it.
(29:11):
If any of this conversation about leadership resonated with you and you're interested
in reaching out to Paul, reach out to me also on LinkedIn.
I write about this and speak about this as well and would love to get your perspective.
So you can find me on LinkedIn.
That's all we have for today, gang. We'll see you next time on Behind the Numbers. Take care.
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