In this episode of the Big Careers, Small Children podcast, Verena Hefti MBE speaks with Dr Nara Daubeney, CEO & Co-Founder of Phaim Pharma and NHS Surgeon.
Nara is also a mum of four. She shares her deeply honest and inspiring reflections on what it takes to build a big career and raise a thriving family without sacrificing either.
From designing Easter hats at 5am to leading a clinical-stage biotech company, Nara brings warmth, clarity, and wit to a conversation about redefining ambition, letting go of guilt, and building systems that work for your life, not against it.
Together, they explore:
✔️ Why guilt is baked into motherhood and how to release it
✔️ How to balance ambition with presence during different parenting phases
✔️ Why support systems are essential (and how to build your own, even without nearby family)
✔️ What makes someone ready to be a CEO
✔️ How leadership and parenting challenges mirror each other
✔️ What teens really need from you, and how that shapes career decisions
✔️ Why perfection isn’t the goal, and how embracing imperfection is freeing
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- How to redefine success on your own terms
- Why motherhood and leadership are not in conflict
- The mindset shift that helps you build a sustainable career
- How to set boundaries and run your life like a system
- The role of authenticity, values, and reflection in leadership
Show Notes:
- Connect with Nara Daubeney on LinkedIn
- Learn more about Phain Pharma: www.phaim.co.uk
- Learn more about the Leaders Plus: Big Careers, Small Children podcast and explore additional resources at leadersplus.org.
- Follow Leaders Plus on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Bluesky.
- Connect with our CEO, Verena Hefti MBE on LinkedIn.
- Find out more about the work of Leaders Plus by signing up to our Newsletter.
Our multi-award-winning Leaders Plus Fellowships support parents committed to career growth while enjoying family life. Expertly designed to keep parents on the leadership path, our programme tackles gender pay gap issues and empowers parents to thrive. Learn more here: Leaders Plus Fellowship.
More BCSC episodes you might love:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male, middle classpeople leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program. Be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
the courage that they instillin each other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
(02:14):
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship.
Today I'm chatting to NoraDobony who is a CEO and a surgeon
and has four children, whichhas been a brilliant conversation
for me because I'm as I'mrecording this, also pregnant with
(02:36):
my fourth child. She shareswhat has worked for her in combining
a big career with youngchildren. She shared what she's learned
through the process and alsowhat she thinks is necessary to become
a CEO. Enjoy the conversation.Very warm welcome Nara to the podcast.
Let's Start with youintroducing who you are, what you
do for work and who is in your family.
(02:59):
Thank you Verena, it'sabsolutely wonderful to be here and
thank you for the invitation.Thank you for all you do to try and
support all of us who arejuggling very many roles, very many
hats. So my name is NaraDaubeny. My background is quite extensive
but I currently work as thechief executive officer of a UK based
biotech company which is gonefrom a startup to now a clinical
(03:22):
stage company and we work inthe area of autoimmunity and in fact
as far as I know we're theonly UK based private company that
has a clinical stage drug foran autoimmune disease, namely type
1 diabetes. So we're immenselyproud and excited about that. So
that's one of my hats. Mybackground is I'm a surgeon by training.
(03:43):
I trained and still work as anENT surgeon. I train in the UK and
did most of my training hereas well and do part time work at
one of the biggest healthcaretrusts, not just in the UK but in
London. And it's a job that Ienjoy enormously and I find really
enhances the way I'm able tolook at and learn about how you deliver
(04:04):
healthcare on the front lineand probably makes me a better innovator,
a better CEO as well. Sothat's the professional side of things.
Family is quite sort of spreadall over the world. I'm an immigrant,
daughter of immigrants and animmigrant myself. My background is
I actually was born and raisedin a number of countries, Hungary,
the Middle east, came here andmy parents for a little time, well,
(04:27):
for 20 years had been in theUS. I settled down here, married
here and I now have four kidswho are aged between 12 and 19, two
boys and two girls, which Ifind hard to believe if I'm honest,
because you look at them and Ithink most people who've got sort
of teenage or kids in their20s can attest, you think, how on
earth did time fly so so fast?More on that later. But we have very
(04:51):
close relationships with my inlaws and my parents as well and I
think that has played a bigpart in the caring role that I myself
as well as a husband have hadover the last few years. That's been
a very important part oflooking after family, not just children,
but parents as well.
And are you getting to thatstage of your life where you have
(05:12):
people other than yourchildren that you need to look after
as well?
100%. It's definitely a fullcircle so when our children were
young, my mother played a veryimportant part, particularly around
maternity nursing or theequivalent, as anyone who's got very,
very young children or newbornwill attest. It is a to say all encompassing
and full on doesn't quitecapture the entirely consuming nature
(05:37):
of having a newborn. And tosome degree I think one of the most
sort of damaging actuallythings we've told ourselves, you
know, high powered women andmen for that matter, is that we're
meant to stand on our own twofeet. We're meant to be independent,
we're meant to do this on ourown. I'm a strong believer that that
is false. In fact, actually Ithink it's very bad for us to internalize
(05:58):
that humans were meant to workas a quote unquote village. You know,
you're meant to work as acollective. I'm a strong believer
that women are meant to becollaborative in raising those very,
very young kids. So I alwaystry and think if, you know, if this
was sort of a prehistoricvillage, there'd be. Everybody would
(06:21):
be at some different stage ofchildbearing or child rearing. And
it's very different if you'vegot 10, 20 other women that you can
just give a baby to and say,hold this lovely child, I need to
go to sleep. And we've sort oftalked ourselves out of that and
that's very, very hard. Soyeah, 100%. And I think that then
shifts into a very differentsituation where you then have to
(06:44):
manage the growing the youngtoddler and the kids going to school
etc and very often and ittends to be women, I mean fathers
in this as well, but mostlythis tends to be women. That's a
very difficult time becauseyou're trying to be all things, all
the time to everyone andactually the end result is in your
head anyway. You disappointeveryone all of the time. So that's
(07:06):
the sort of middle portion.And of course as things get a little
bit later on then you realizethat your mother or mother in law
is now 20 years older than shewas at the first time you did this.
And you know, and then it's acircle of life, you're going to have
to take care of them. Andwe've certainly had to do that in
the last couple of yearsthrough sort of illness, etc. And
yeah, so that's the difficult.It is that constant need to adapt
(07:29):
as a mother and a caregiverthrough those years. And you know,
where you are today is notwhere you'll be in three months or
six Months or a year. And howdo you keep ahead of that? And undoubtedly
lack a skill, because it is askill. Some people naturally sort
of flow with it easier thanothers. But that is something you
have to keep evolving at. Andyou know, how you sort something
(07:50):
when they're 2 is not how whatthey need when they're 6 or 8 or
12 or teenagers, etc. So justwhen you think you've got it nailed,
then a new challenge presentsitself. So, yeah, it's an evolution,
I bet.
And I'm sad to inform you thatsome of our senior leader mentors
who are very senior, but theirchildren have actually left their
homes. All of them say, well,they even still now worry about them
(08:14):
and accompany them to any onoccasion, if that's necessary. From
the outside you look, and Ihope you don't mind me saying this,
I mean it in a positive way,you look like an absolute high flyer.
And generally surgeons are,you know, you can only look at the
recent reports of women insurgeries. It's a very tough place
to be for women. It's a toughplace as it is and you've chosen
(08:38):
to have not just two or threechildren, but four children. And
I'm just interested in whetheryou've had moments where you thought
of packing it all in and justdeciding on one. I mean, you can't
give your children back, ofcourse, but you could have said,
well, actually I'm just goingto get three nannies during this
period and just survive atwork during this critical phase of
(09:00):
my training. Or you could havesaid, well, actually I have had enough.
I want to become a housewife,which is a totally fine choice for
people who want to do it. ButI'm interested in your journey there.
So I think that's a very goodquestion and not an easy one to answer
other than to say, soactually, just generally speaking,
obviously, as you know, we'recoming off the back of International
Women's Day. You know, lots ofdata is out there. So I think we've
(09:23):
got the research, we've gotthe data that shows that in very
many fields that I suppose wenaturally associate with competitiveness
and sort of those more, youknow, if I can be relatively stereotypic,
more sort of masculineattitudes of not aggression, but
certainly pushing forward withintent, there seems to be some sort
(09:46):
of magical ceiling of 15%. SoI'll tell you some examples. So apparently
in engineering it's about 17%.And I only recentl learned on a
panel that one of theirnational organizing bodies had declined
or maybe if a More triggeringword might be prevented them from
forming a female only group,which I find interesting, because
(10:09):
actually there is power andcamaraderie and strength in that.
So they're at 17%. So femaleCEOs are at about the same between
15 and 17%. Female surgeonsare just under 15%. So there seems
to be something where we'vemade progress in say 30 years, certainly
in surgery, from 3% to justunder 15% from 92 to 2024. So that's
(10:32):
over 30 years, but that's itwhen we stopped, and we've stopped
in all sorts of other fieldsas well. So I think that that's real
food for thought as to thewhy. Because research shows that
if you get to 30%, then youdon't have to aim any higher. Naturally,
that 30% then turns into 50%,but at this point we're not there.
And if we progress at thisrate, it's going to take us another
(10:52):
30 or so years to get anywhereclose to that. Not even half. So
that begs the question, why isit only that which dovetails into
your question, which is whatmakes those who sort of see it out
through to the bitter endstay? And I can't speak for everyone
but other than myself to say,I think it has to be something you
(11:13):
really, really want to do.This has to be something that sets
fire in your belly and youabsolutely love doing. Because no
matter what you choose inlife, there are bad things in it.
And the really rubbish thingsthat you really don't want to deal
with, all the hassle and allof that, and there's plenty of that
in no matter what you choose.So I've always thought, well, at
least let's do something youreally, really love. Because then
(11:34):
the negative things, thehassle, the dross that comes with
it, you're able to toleratethat much better. So I think that's
the prerequisite is that youreally, really have to love it. Because
if you do, then all thesetrials and tribulations of which
there were many, they becomeobstacles, not barriers. So you can
jump over them, but it's not abrick wall. And so it comes down
(11:57):
to how am I going to deal withthis one? So I think that's bit one
part of the question, I thinksecond bit of it is undoubtedly,
and I would probably suggestmost people out there who are in
similar place would attest aswell, you need the support network,
you need somebody who's behindyou, who supports your decisions.
(12:17):
In my case, that was myhusband. But it doesn't have to be
your spouse. But I think it'squite difficult to manage this if
your spouse is not behind yourchoices, as I am behind his, of course.
So I think the support thatthat gave as having someone who's
your undoubted greatestcheerleader gives you a huge amount
(12:37):
of strength. Not least becausewhen it's four kids and they're very,
very small, you need someonewho's able to be there and how you
solve that, there's manyanswers to that, as there are people.
You know, there's some peoplewho say, actually, my husband stayed
at home. I happen to have ahusband who works his fingers to
the bone at sort of going outto work. And he's a professor at
Imperial, so he's not like hehas a huge amount of bandwidth. But
(13:01):
between the two of us, it wasalways a team that could do it. So
that was. That's my sort ofjourney. But I think those two things
together is one, genuinelylove what you're doing and genuinely,
really, really want it. Andthe second is tap into your support
network, whatever that maylook like. You know, that could be
spies, that could be mum, thatcould be sister, that could be extended
family, whatever works. And weshould not be afraid or think it
(13:24):
makes us less to say, I needhelp, this is what I want to do,
but I can't do it unless youhelp me do it. Because I don't think
there's anyone in thatscenario who can do it on their own.
I certainly couldn't have.
And you mentioned supportnetwork a number of times for the
listeners who do now haveyounger children and who think, yeah,
great idea, I would like asupport network, but my mother lives
(13:46):
in Australia and my mother inlaw in Scotland. What has worked
for you to build that supportnetwork outside of immediate family
that you can pass on?
So that's a really interestingquestion. So I think that, again,
is as many answers as thereare people. So our challenge was
that when our kids were very,very small, we didn't actually have
anybody near us at all. Soboth of our sets of parents were
(14:09):
relatively far away and wouldnot be able to tell. So, I mean,
I used to sort of joke attimes, because I was doing my PhD
at that time, is that Iliterally, and this was actually
a joke, I handed my pay slipover to the nanny because once with
tax, there was nothing left.So that's where we had to sort of
make that decision with myhusband to say, look, are going to
be supportive of me doing thisPhD, because otherwise I can't kind
(14:32):
of do it. So we have to throwsome money at the problem, actually,
which I also appreciate. Noteveryone is in the position that
they can do. And don't get mewrong, that required a lot of sacrifice.
It was definitely a massiveluxury item that we had to then sort
of work around. So I thinkit's looking at whatever your levers
are, whether it is extrasupport, whether it is looking for
(14:53):
different ways to access somesort of support, whatever you can
do. If it's not family, is itfriends? You know, very often we
just sort of shared along withour friends, sort of drop offs and
pickups and things like that,just to give yourself a little bit
more time. And it's hardbecause, not to put too fine a point
in it, you've got lovelynannies who will be having a fantastic
time with your kids whilstyou're, you know, slugging your guts
(15:17):
out at work and you think, I'dmuch rather be there. So that's why
sort of the sacrifice has tobe sort of enough. And for me the
challenge was, and hopefullytouch wood I managed to get it right
is how do I stay working butstill be the mum that I want to be?
Which is that, to use aphrase, you know, I always wanted
(15:39):
to. I'm my children's truenorth star. I set the values. If
there is any sort of problemsthat they might have or if there's
any concerns that I'm the onethey come to and they know they can
come to. So they don't eventhink, oh, I mustn't disturb mummy
because she's working. Youknow, I'd want them to say, you have
to come. So how do you havethat? And that's a moving target.
(15:59):
You know, kids are still, youknow, you're not out the other end.
It's that constant sort ofinteraction and conversation with
your kids. And for me thatsolution has been around two main
guiding lights. One is I'vealways felt for my kids anyway, the
number one thing is all kidsneed is to know that they are loved,
that they are lovedunconditionally, truly doesn't matter
(16:20):
what they do, that the love isalways there. And for me that's always
had to be explicit. So theyare hugged and kissed and told that
they are loved and they toldthat they are valued so that you
have that emotional solidground to sit on. And the second
is to be really, really clearand consistent with what the rules
are. They're not unnecessarilystringent, but neither are they lenient.
(16:40):
They're all there for A reasonwhich can be clearly articulated
and are consistent acrosschildren and across time. And with
those two things together,hopefully then you're raising children
that know where they stand atany point and it allows them, gives
them that psychological,physical, mental consistency and
stability. Then they don'teven think about those things because
(17:02):
that's a given. So the braincan work on developing, on learning,
on educating and all thosethings. So probably it comes through
that I've worked hard at beinga good mother. Not to say I got it
right. Goodness knows I'vemade more mistakes than I've had
hot dinners. But that this hasbeen an active process and a choice
as to how to keep those thingsgoing. And to move back to your earlier
(17:24):
question, yeah, 100% therewere times when you think do I really
want to do this? And theanswer to that was always yes, I
really, really do. And then itcame down to okay, if something's
not working, how am I going tofix it?
And aside from the nanny, whatwas the most powerful fix? I like
this, the idea of fixingsomething, I'm sure, I'm sure in
practicality it's not alwaysthat easy. But what was the most
(17:47):
powerful fix that you had inplace by the time that your fourth
child arrived, but that tookyou a while to figure out?
I think what I did is I. Thissounds quite ridiculous. I optimized
my systems so everything hadan sop. So you know, whether how
we diary share, who does what,how we communicate. It's much easier
(18:09):
now. So you know, if you wentback, you know my first child was
born in 2005. So it's before alot of the social media, before a
lot of the software that weuse now. So it was much more analog,
you know, it was much moresort of printed diaries and, and
now of course it's much, mucheasier. But it is about sort of comp.
So all the systems would worklike the shopping would be really
(18:30):
easy, you know, the deliverieswould be really easy, the diaries
really easy. So you don't haveto have unscheduled interruptions
in your day about what am Idoing today or who's doing what.
So everything is really,really very clear how the week is
meant to run and what's meantto happen when. So I think whilst
not a fix it means that theroutine and the day to day happens
(18:51):
relatively effortlessly andthen you can deal with the curveballs.
But you know, despite thatthere are things that we all remember.
You just light heartedillustration is I remember coming
home one night and it Was theEaster hat parade very topical? It's
coming up and I kind of madesome things. I said, look, this is
probably really good fun. Youcan use it as a sort of an art thing.
And the nanny was going tomake it with one of the kids. And
(19:13):
I came home and I could. Therewas no Easter hat I could see. And
I thought, oh, my Goodness me,it's 8pm I've only just got home,
I'm absolutely on my knees.And I thought, I can't do this now.
So I went to bed after eatingand I said I was going to get up.
So I got up and I designed thehat in my head. I knew exactly what
I was going to do. So I got upat half past five and I thought it
was going to take me an hour.Give it a slip. It's hour and a half.
(19:33):
If I'm done at 7, I couldstill be out the door at 7:30. So
I got up at half past 5,remember, with a coffee, and I made
a big daffodil, completelyridiculous thing, easy. And then
it was done. And you're like,this is ridiculous. What am I doing?
It's 6am and I'm making adaffodil hat. But yeah, so the system
does fall down sometimes, butI think that was it, just to try
(19:53):
and get as much of itorganized as best as you can so that
you make your own life easier.
Yeah, I absolutely agree. Ihave to laugh because it's so illustrative
as I have three children andI'm pregnant with the fourth. And
as we're recording this, I canhear in the background that my partner
has brought the kids home andI forgot to tell him that I have
a podcast recording and I canhear them on the sound. But we'll
(20:16):
get the editor to make it allsound beautiful. But it's quite funny
that that's happening.
Every now and then. You'relike. And it's not until it happens
that you go, oh, hang on aminute. I can't remember reminding
him or her or, you know, whatever.
Absolutely, that's very true.And you've become a CEO, and that's
quite a rare thing generallyfor women and for mother. And it's
also a rare thing for anybodywho is female to get investment.
(20:40):
The stats are absolutelyridiculous. And obviously I'm assuming
for an organization like yoursthat needs stuff to produce those
medications, you need to havean investment. And I'm just interested
in if you can sell the CRO. SoI have an agenda here, which is I
want more of our community tobecome CEOs in the long term to exactly
change, change this situation.I'm just thinking from your perspective,
(21:02):
why has it been worth goingdown that route of setting up leading
a company?
(25:15):
So I think one of the thingsthat comes out sometimes of some
of the research, and I don'treally like not talking about it,
but I don't like emphasizingit because I think one can talk oneself
into failure, is this idea ofself limiting beliefs, which I think
is a thing. But it almostleads people to start thinking that
women need fixing because it'salways around accelerators and mentorship,
(25:38):
which is great. But a lot ofpeople say we don't need fixing,
we don't need any more sort ofwork, shopping or anything like that,
just give us funding. And Ithink that's probably resonates with
most women who are looking andlooking to fundraise and leading
organizations. But tappingback into that, there is absolutely
no reason why someoneshouldn't go for that role because
(26:00):
either they don't seethemselves in there or they think
it's difficult, or they thinkit'd be really hard for me to do
because complete sentence willbe difficult for me to raise, it'll
be difficult for me to makeit, etc. If we just cast off any
of these shackles and acceptthat these are difficult roles. You
know, surgery is difficult,you know, being a CEO is difficult,
(26:20):
being a leading engineer isdifficult. That doesn't make them
less worth doing, it makesthem more worth doing. And it's difficult
for everyone. So it'sdifficult whether you're a boy or
a girl, it doesn't matter.They are difficult things and they're
difficult things to do. Well,so if we just say yes, it's difficult
and then just ignore thatbecause if that's the thing that
(26:41):
leads in your head, thenyou'll never go for it. But that
would be the case for anythingthat's a challenge in your life.
So I go back to my originalthing is you do something that really
you love and the love and thepassion kind of almost blinds you
to the difficulty. Not thatyou don't know it's that of course
you do, but it doesn't bindyou. Difficulty, I'll rephrase, but
(27:04):
blinds you to the selflimiting nature of the difficulty.
So you can see the difficultyfor what it is and then go right,
how am I going to deal withit? You know, how do I overcome it
as opposed to it's sodifficult, I'm not even going to
have a go so that's the kindof mindset.
At the moment you have whatmany people would describe as a portfolio
(27:25):
career. You also haveteenagers. Everyone who has teenagers
tells me they need you at themoment when they need you. And there's
a lot less flexibility to whenthey need your attention. How do
you deal with that?
So the need changes becausewhen they're small, you know, they've
got great capacity to doreally silly things like try and
jump off things and you know,various ingenious ways of trying
(27:47):
to kill themselvesunintentionally. So you have to physically,
you know, the physicality ofthe care is probably the greatest
thing. You know, when they'revery small, of course they're literally
dependent on you becauseyou're feeding them, you're cleaning
them, you're picking them upand all of those things as they get
a little bit older, then it'sa little bit more around just managing
their life. And they kind of,for the most part do what you've
(28:07):
scheduled them to do, go toschool, get picked up, go to an after
school club, etc. The wholething around the teenage years is
of course to say, look, you'vegot more autonomy and you've got
more choice. And the thingthat we've tried to map to that bit
of their life is that you havegot more autonomy provided you keep
choosing the right things,make the right choices. And if you
(28:28):
don't, some of that autonomywill be scaled back. And of course
you scaffold them relativelyearly on and then you scaffold them
a little bit less as time goeson. And we all make bad choices,
adults make bad choices. Andwhen that bad choice happens, you
can kind of course correct andsay this was a bad choice because.
But that kind of allows you tohave a two way dialogue and a discussion
with your kids. Andundoubtedly they need you when they
(28:51):
need you. Those points, youhave to focus on that the immediacy
is more around that moment intime as opposed to that exact point
in time. You know what I mean?Like a baby needs feeding now, there's
no question around that, youknow, no matter what you're doing,
that baby's getting fed rightnow, this second. Whereas if you've
got a teenager that sort ofneeds you now because of a bullying
(29:12):
or some online stuff orwhatever, that's something that is
much more nuanced and theyneed you now. But you also need to
form a strategy around itbecause you're just sitting them
down going, well, let's talkabout the, you know, the issue you've
got at school, they're notgoing to do that. So it's more saying
if you have that conversationwith the kids or the two flow anyway
and that goes, then thatallows you opens that window to say,
(29:34):
okay, so this is the problem.And then you see it as a slightly
longer game. We're not justgoing to sit down and solve this.
Okay, this is an issue now.It's going to be at my area of focus
with you, number one child ortwo child or whatever for the next
couple of weeks. That's what Isay in my head. And then every time
we chat or have a good storyand I go, oh, by the way, you know
that thing, what's happenedabout that? So that you can start
(29:56):
sort of gather. So they doneed you when they need you. But
it's not so much that shortsharp spell of immediacy, it's more
a slower burn over probably alonger period of time, but does need
your focus and needs yourintellectual and analytical focus.
Because they don't yet havethe tools to solve some of these
(30:17):
complex problems, you know,and some of them are anything that
you know that's hard foradults to solve, social media, you
know, bullying, inappropriatesigns that some people might be showing
them, etc. So some of them arevery, very challenging things and
certainly not, not suitablefor immediate, immediate solving.
That makes sense.
They're starting to enter theworld of adults which is also the
(30:39):
world of complex challengesthat aren't simple.
Exactly.
You are a leader in a biotechfirm. Obviously you know pharma very
well. What's your gutinstinct? What needs to change to
have more women and especiallyalso more mothers continuing to get
to those exec director, CEOpositions in those areas.
(31:02):
That's a very, very complexquestion. So, and I think lots of
people were talking aboutthat. So I think that's a multi pronged
approach. Some of it is us,but some of it is a societal thing.
So I'll give you an examplethat raised its head recently, which
I actually think is a verygood idea. So you might remember
some time ago there was acampaign, a government initiated
(31:23):
campaign that said this girlcan. And it was around getting more
women and girls to stay insports because the study showed that
actually a lot of girls dropsports very, very quickly so they
don't stay in it. And part ofit was body image, part of it was
what would they think? And itwas a very, very clever ad because
it showed normal women andgirls doing normal sports. So it
(31:45):
wasn't all idealized andairbrushed. And it was very powerful
because it showed the strengthand the benefit and the fun in all
of that. I would suggest weneed something like that for women
in these very, very exciting,difficult. Don't want to necessarily
use the word high poweredbecause it's not about the high power,
(32:07):
but it is about that being atthe front edge of these STEM innovation
positions. So I would suggest,if any government policymakers are
listening, that having acampaign like that, you know, if
you were to see on abillboard, this lady I listened to
at India House, one of theengineers and she's met a Fellow
of the Royal Society, wasanother one. So if you saw these
(32:29):
people and there was someonewho was a nuclear physicist who works
at Cambridge, you know, theseare amazing women. If you saw them
and then had just a teeny tinybio, you'd look them up. Little QR
code, look them up. That wouldchange the mindset not just of girls,
but of boys and not just ofwomen, but also of men. And then
there is that visibilitybecause nobody, obviously EDI is
(32:53):
taking a hit. And part of itis because, and I think most people
can get behind this, thereshouldn't be any diversity without
meritocracy. Nobody wants tobe. I certainly wouldn't want to
be hired as a tick boxexercise, but at the same time I
don't not want to be hiredbecause of being female. So it just
should be as much of a levelplaying field as possible. So that's
(33:13):
one thing, I think there's avisibility point and the other thing
is that really makes adifference is I actually think more
women in finance andinvesting, because that kind of puts
a different flavor on it. Andto anybody who sort of is looking
at doing that, I would suggestthat if you're a mum, that you're
(33:34):
trying to do all of thesethings and manage all of your time
and you know, you're going tobe very resilient, you're going to
be very adaptable, you'regoing to be very flexible and persistent
and quite strong overall. Sothose are all really, really good
sort of strengths to bring toit. At that point. You probably find
people will have differentopinions. You know, there's all sorts
of questions around, how doyou lead? What's a female leader?
(33:57):
How do you do that? Which Ithink is for a different time, for
a different conversationnecessarily, but that can be it.
And the word albeit overused Ithink is really apt for this one
is just you've got to beauthentic, you've got to be you as
the saying goes, everyone elseis taken. So you've got to know who
you are and be able tocommunicate that very clearly. Those
are some of the things that wecan do as individuals, but then can
(34:21):
also be done around societyand potentially across government.
I couldn't agree more. Ireally like this idea of a campaign
and I've recorded now morethan 200 episodes and we'll release
this episode as part of a CEOseries, which we've done a number
of times. And thank you somuch for being part of sharing your
story. Everybody's story isslightly different, but just sharing
that actually you are there inthis position and you're still standing
(34:43):
and you're making a differencethrough that. I think that's an incredibly
important piece of the puzzle.We've done research and it showed
that 6% of working parentssaid their motivation to get to senior
leadership would increase ifthere were more role models in their
sector. To me, that wassurprising because I always was laughing
(35:03):
a little bit at all theseefforts by big companies to create
role models. I thought it wasjust a tick box exercise, but actually
it does make a difference. Sowe definitely need to keep doing
it.
Yeah, 100. 100. And it's oncealso very. I think it was Madeleine
Albright that said there's aspecial place in hell for women who
don't help other women. And soI think part of that, as you journey
(35:24):
through a find your tribe,find people of which there are many
men and women, incidentally.And I think that's probably one thing
I didn't say. I think some ofmy strongest advocates at work, mainly
because they all have just onthe balance of probabilities and
the odds have been men whosupported the next generation of
surgeons, men or women. Sothey, as long as you did what you
were meant to do and performas you're meant to perform, then
(35:46):
they were supportive. So I'vehad immense support from seniors.
And it's an interesting thingbecause I role modeled them even
though they weren't women.There was a few women, but there
were 99% of them were men.That didn't kind of matter. I sort
of thought, I want to be likeyou. And the gender thing didn't
matter. I thought actuallyyou're compassionate, you're kind,
(36:07):
you support, you help. That'swhat I want to be. So I think that's
the other thing. I think wedon't necessarily need to see that
role modeling in anotherwoman. It helps, of course it does,
but it does. It doesn't haveto be that way it's more around the
human thing and the human sideof things and say, and we've got
great, great advocates formore women in biotech. So recently
with International Women'sDay, Dan Mahoney, who's the chair
(36:29):
of the BIA was amazing. Youknow, he's been a real to say ally
probably doesn't quiteencompass it enough. So there are,
and there's lots of peoplethat are like that. So I think seek
them out and, and surroundwith yourself with those even if
they're very busy, even ifit's just a coffee or something.
You know, most people do wantto give back and they do want to
support. So there is stuff outthere. So get that. Because to your
(36:51):
earlier question, that willgive you the strength, that will
give you the support and attimes when perhaps you're a little
bit faltering may just beenough to keep you on the straight
and narrow and keep you supported.
Absolutely. And on that note,anyone who does want that practical
group of people who have yourcorner, it is worth checking out
the Leaders plus Fellowship,which are social enterprise runs,
(37:13):
because it does exactly that.It brings together people who want
to progress their careers andwho happen to have children, men
and women. We are operating ina system that isn't quite designed
for people who have care andresponsibilities and actually sometimes
that can be hard and it's areally good thing to surround yourself
with like minded people. Andalso we have senior leader mentors
(37:33):
who share their experience,who perhaps have children who've
grown up, who really want togive back to people from Iran. So
again I have an agenda whichis to get more people into those
CEO roles. And one questionI'm interested in is what qualities
do you now need to exhibit asa CEO that you didn't have to exhibit
in a more junior role wherethe box didn't stop with you?
(37:55):
Yeah, that's a veryinteresting question. And probably
I have to say I think thereisn't a great difference in the sense
that I personally, and I thinkthis is a generalization thing, always
thought that to some degreethe buck does always stop with you
for what you're doing. So youcan't say, oh, someone else will
(38:20):
pick that up or that's not mybit, you know, someone else can do
it. So I think giving it tosay 100% doesn't really quite encapsulate
what I'm trying to say. But togive it that dedication and that
focus, to give the best thatyou can deliver at any given time,
I think holds true and in somerespects, you need to have that even
when you're a junior, becauseif you don't, then no one can see
(38:44):
you in the CEO role becauseyou're not really taking all the
responsibility you need to betaking in order for you to perform
at a CEO level. So you almosthave to do that. Not just to say,
go above and beyond. Doesn'tquite really paint the picture, but
you have to do everything thatyou can do in the bit that you can
influence. And that is howleaders are made, whether you'll
(39:05):
get to see or whatever else.And that's the bit that gets you.
I mean, if you're thinkinglike that the whole time, then you're
sort of preparing. I'll giveyou a sort of CEO, but I'll give
you that sort of more surgicalexample of that as you're training
and you're going along theperson that you. There's always someone
senior to you until you becomeconsultant. And when you're the consultant,
(39:26):
you're the one that carriesthe can for pretty much everything.
So when you're junior, youkind of take it for granted that
it isn't new. But for my part,I've always thought, well, what if
it is me? And I've always beenvery reflective around examining
situations where, well, if itwas me, I couldn't handle it. I needed
to call someone to help. Andbeing reflective around those points
(39:49):
allowed me to. To grow eachtime a challenge that I couldn't
overcome myself presenteditself. So I was consistently pushing
myself to say, how can I bebetter because I'm not perfect. No
one's ever the finishedarticle. I still do that now. This
is not like you get to somepinnacle and it stops. It doesn't
stop. It's still there. So.And I do that now as a CEO, as a
(40:11):
surgeon, I'll get to a pointand I'll think, I'm not 100% sure
that I'm doing this 100% theway it should be done. So very often
where I go for the team, youknow, I'll phone a friend and I've
got lots of really amazingadvisors that I can talk to and say,
listen, can I just runsomething past you? And that's the
thing. So be really goodaround examining bits where you can
(40:33):
be better. This is what I tryand do and surround yourself with
people that are able to giveyou that advice when you need it.
And then you sort of takethat, internalize it, work it through
as a worked example, and rinseand repeat. And that allows for A
continuous improvement andlearning. So trying to always push
yourself to a point whereactually the buck really stops with
me. But also being reflectiveand saying, I know I have limits.
(40:55):
I'm not perfect, I'm not thefinished article, I never will be,
I don't think. And thenexamine those and then go for people
and rely on people who arebetter than you because there's always
someone better than you.
That's very true. On the topicof advice I'm interested in, obviously
your children. In 10 yearstime or so, they might be out of
your house and they might evenbe starting to think about how they
might combine big demandingcareers with children. Is there anything
(41:21):
that you would say to themthat you haven't said on this podcast
yet?
Yes, I think the answer isit's not an either or. I think that
is self limiting. And there isthis sort of very unhelpful phrase
of having it all. Not evensure I know what that means. But
if it means family and career,then you can have both of those things.
(41:44):
But just how that plays out isvery individual. And it's not perfect.
And it doesn't have to be.That's really important actually,
you know, it doesn't have tobe. And guilt is baked into motherhood.
We're guilty about all thethings and we need to let go of that.
And particularly if you'revery high flying and high achieving
that when you first starthaving kids and the whole thing goes
(42:06):
sideways because the house isthis and the kids are that and the
career, that's just fine.There's no race, there's not a competition.
We're on this for a finiteamount of time. And the things that
really matter are things likelove, family, career for most people.
And so there's plenty of time.There's plenty of time. And trying
(42:29):
to live in that moment becauseby the way, the days are long, but
the years are very short. Andall of a sudden you blink and you
think it was but yesterdaythat I was sitting bleary eyed and
I thought I'd never sleepagain for the rest of my life. So
just enjoy the ride. And it'snot going to be perfect. And that
(42:51):
is perfect. The imperfection,the messiness, that is how it's meant
to be. And it's not a race.It's your speed and it's your life.
And nothing personally is thegreater gift than having a family
and a kid. It's the best thingthat I think I've ever done. So don't
sweat the small stuff. Don'tAim for perfection and live in the
(43:15):
moment.
What a wonderful final wordfor our podcast. Thank you so much
Nara. If someone would like tofind out more about your thinking
or your verb, where shouldthey head?
So easiest is always I'mafraid I'm going to go social media
and LinkedIn. I am very goodat trying to get through all my messages
but it sometimes takes me sometime so feel free to reach out. Forgive
(43:37):
me if I don't reply very fast,but I will do. And yeah, very happy
to help when I can. Or if I'mnot the right person because I'm
not going to be the rightperson for everything or everybody,
then direct you to someone who is.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Ferina Hefti and I'd be delighted
(44:02):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review on and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery very male dominated environment.
(44:23):
Most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same then please head over to
leadersplus.org Fellowship inoperation order to get access to
a community of support to helpyou combine ambitious career with
(44:45):
young children together withpeople who have your back. See you
next week.
Welcome to the Big CareersSmall Children Podcast. My name is
Verena Hefti. I believe thatno one should have to choose between
becoming a CEO and enjoyingtheir young children for much too
long. Amazing people like I'msure you listening right now have
found themselves stuck on thecareer ladder when they have children
(00:22):
and that leads to genderinequality in senior leadership because
those people don't progress tosenior leadership and the same stale,
often male, middle classpeople leading our organizations.
We must change this togetherand I hope that many of you listening
right now will progress to themost senior leadership roles that
you like where you can makethe decisions that make our world
(00:43):
a better place. Outside of thepodcast. I am the CEO and founder
of the Social enterpriseLeaders Plus. We exist to help working
parents progress their careersto senior leadership in a way that
works for you and for yourfamilies. We have free events and
resources on leadersplus.orgwhere you can download helpful toolkits
(01:04):
such as on returning frommaternity leave, share parental leave,
securing a promotion, dealingwith workload challenges, or managing
as a dual career couple. Wealso have an award winning fellowship
community which is global forworking parents who have big dreams
for their careers but don'twant to sacrifice their family. You'll
join an absolutely wonderfulgroup of people, a very tight knit,
(01:29):
supportive group of parentswho have your back together. You'll
explore what your careeraspirations are and you'll get advice
from senior leaders who arealso working parents about how to
achieve those aspirations.You'll get new ideas to combine your
hopes for your careers withyour hope for your family. And you
are supported by people whoare experiencing what you're experiencing
(01:50):
yourself. I'm really delightedthat a larger majority of our fellows
have made tangible changesfollowing the program. Be that becoming
more senior in their roles,working shorter hours, having better
flexible working arrangement.They always impress me so much with
the courage that they instillin each other to do what is right
for them without apologizingfor having a family or apologizing
(02:14):
for wanting that top job.Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship.
Today I'm chatting to NoraDobony who is a CEO and a surgeon
and has four children, whichhas been a brilliant conversation
for me because I'm as I'mrecording this, also pregnant with
(02:36):
my fourth child. She shareswhat has worked for her in combining
a big career with youngchildren. She shared what she's learned
through the process and alsowhat she thinks is necessary to become
a CEO. Enjoy the conversation.Very warm welcome Nara to the podcast.
Let's Start with youintroducing who you are, what you
do for work and who is in your family.
(02:59):
Thank you Verena, it'sabsolutely wonderful to be here and
thank you for the invitation.Thank you for all you do to try and
support all of us who arejuggling very many roles, very many
hats. So my name is NaraDaubeny. My background is quite extensive
but I currently work as thechief executive officer of a UK based
biotech company which is gonefrom a startup to now a clinical
(03:22):
stage company and we work inthe area of autoimmunity and in fact
as far as I know we're theonly UK based private company that
has a clinical stage drug foran autoimmune disease, namely type
1 diabetes. So we're immenselyproud and excited about that. So
that's one of my hats. Mybackground is I'm a surgeon by training.
(03:43):
I trained and still work as anENT surgeon. I train in the UK and
did most of my training hereas well and do part time work at
one of the biggest healthcaretrusts, not just in the UK but in
London. And it's a job that Ienjoy enormously and I find really
enhances the way I'm able tolook at and learn about how you deliver
(04:04):
healthcare on the front lineand probably makes me a better innovator,
a better CEO as well. Sothat's the professional side of things.
Family is quite sort of spreadall over the world. I'm an immigrant,
daughter of immigrants and animmigrant myself. My background is
I actually was born and raisedin a number of countries, Hungary,
the Middle east, came here andmy parents for a little time, well,
(04:27):
for 20 years had been in theUS. I settled down here, married
here and I now have four kidswho are aged between 12 and 19, two
boys and two girls, which Ifind hard to believe if I'm honest,
because you look at them and Ithink most people who've got sort
of teenage or kids in their20s can attest, you think, how on
earth did time fly so so fast?More on that later. But we have very
(04:51):
close relationships with my inlaws and my parents as well and I
think that has played a bigpart in the caring role that I myself
as well as a husband have hadover the last few years. That's been
a very important part oflooking after family, not just children,
but parents as well.
And are you getting to thatstage of your life where you have
(05:12):
people other than yourchildren that you need to look after
as well?
100%. It's definitely a fullcircle so when our children were
young, my mother played a veryimportant part, particularly around
maternity nursing or theequivalent, as anyone who's got very,
very young children or newbornwill attest. It is a to say all encompassing
and full on doesn't quitecapture the entirely consuming nature
(05:37):
of having a newborn. And tosome degree I think one of the most
sort of damaging actuallythings we've told ourselves, you
know, high powered women andmen for that matter, is that we're
meant to stand on our own twofeet. We're meant to be independent,
we're meant to do this on ourown. I'm a strong believer that that
is false. In fact, actually Ithink it's very bad for us to internalize
(05:58):
that humans were meant to workas a quote unquote village. You know,
you're meant to work as acollective. I'm a strong believer
that women are meant to becollaborative in raising those very,
very young kids. So I alwaystry and think if, you know, if this
was sort of a prehistoricvillage, there'd be. Everybody would
(06:21):
be at some different stage ofchildbearing or child rearing. And
it's very different if you'vegot 10, 20 other women that you can
just give a baby to and say,hold this lovely child, I need to
go to sleep. And we've sort oftalked ourselves out of that and
that's very, very hard. Soyeah, 100%. And I think that then
shifts into a very differentsituation where you then have to
(06:44):
manage the growing the youngtoddler and the kids going to school
etc and very often and ittends to be women, I mean fathers
in this as well, but mostlythis tends to be women. That's a
very difficult time becauseyou're trying to be all things, all
the time to everyone andactually the end result is in your
head anyway. You disappointeveryone all of the time. So that's
(07:06):
the sort of middle portion.And of course as things get a little
bit later on then you realizethat your mother or mother in law
is now 20 years older than shewas at the first time you did this.
And you know, and then it's acircle of life, you're going to have
to take care of them. Andwe've certainly had to do that in
the last couple of yearsthrough sort of illness, etc. And
yeah, so that's the difficult.It is that constant need to adapt
(07:29):
as a mother and a caregiverthrough those years. And you know,
where you are today is notwhere you'll be in three months or
six Months or a year. And howdo you keep ahead of that? And undoubtedly
lack a skill, because it is askill. Some people naturally sort
of flow with it easier thanothers. But that is something you
have to keep evolving at. Andyou know, how you sort something
(07:50):
when they're 2 is not how whatthey need when they're 6 or 8 or
12 or teenagers, etc. So justwhen you think you've got it nailed,
then a new challenge presentsitself. So, yeah, it's an evolution,
I bet.
And I'm sad to inform you thatsome of our senior leader mentors
who are very senior, but theirchildren have actually left their
homes. All of them say, well,they even still now worry about them
(08:14):
and accompany them to any onoccasion, if that's necessary. From
the outside you look, and Ihope you don't mind me saying this,
I mean it in a positive way,you look like an absolute high flyer.
And generally surgeons are,you know, you can only look at the
recent reports of women insurgeries. It's a very tough place
to be for women. It's a toughplace as it is and you've chosen
(08:38):
to have not just two or threechildren, but four children. And
I'm just interested in whetheryou've had moments where you thought
of packing it all in and justdeciding on one. I mean, you can't
give your children back, ofcourse, but you could have said,
well, actually I'm just goingto get three nannies during this
period and just survive atwork during this critical phase of
(09:00):
my training. Or you could havesaid, well, actually I have had enough.
I want to become a housewife,which is a totally fine choice for
people who want to do it. ButI'm interested in your journey there.
So I think that's a very goodquestion and not an easy one to answer
other than to say, soactually, just generally speaking,
obviously, as you know, we'recoming off the back of International
Women's Day. You know, lots ofdata is out there. So I think we've
(09:23):
got the research, we've gotthe data that shows that in very
many fields that I suppose wenaturally associate with competitiveness
and sort of those more, youknow, if I can be relatively stereotypic,
more sort of masculineattitudes of not aggression, but
certainly pushing forward withintent, there seems to be some sort
(09:46):
of magical ceiling of 15%. SoI'll tell you some examples. So apparently
in engineering it's about 17%.And I only recentl learned on a
panel that one of theirnational organizing bodies had declined
or maybe if a More triggeringword might be prevented them from
forming a female only group,which I find interesting, because
(10:09):
actually there is power andcamaraderie and strength in that.
So they're at 17%. So femaleCEOs are at about the same between
15 and 17%. Female surgeonsare just under 15%. So there seems
to be something where we'vemade progress in say 30 years, certainly
in surgery, from 3% to justunder 15% from 92 to 2024. So that's
(10:32):
over 30 years, but that's itwhen we stopped, and we've stopped
in all sorts of other fieldsas well. So I think that that's real
food for thought as to thewhy. Because research shows that
if you get to 30%, then youdon't have to aim any higher. Naturally,
that 30% then turns into 50%,but at this point we're not there.
And if we progress at thisrate, it's going to take us another
(10:52):
30 or so years to get anywhereclose to that. Not even half. So
that begs the question, why isit only that which dovetails into
your question, which is whatmakes those who sort of see it out
through to the bitter endstay? And I can't speak for everyone
but other than myself to say,I think it has to be something you
(11:13):
really, really want to do.This has to be something that sets
fire in your belly and youabsolutely love doing. Because no
matter what you choose inlife, there are bad things in it.
And the really rubbish thingsthat you really don't want to deal
with, all the hassle and allof that, and there's plenty of that
in no matter what you choose.So I've always thought, well, at
least let's do something youreally, really love. Because then
(11:34):
the negative things, thehassle, the dross that comes with
it, you're able to toleratethat much better. So I think that's
the prerequisite is that youreally, really have to love it. Because
if you do, then all thesetrials and tribulations of which
there were many, they becomeobstacles, not barriers. So you can
jump over them, but it's not abrick wall. And so it comes down
(11:57):
to how am I going to deal withthis one? So I think that's bit one
part of the question, I thinksecond bit of it is undoubtedly,
and I would probably suggestmost people out there who are in
similar place would attest aswell, you need the support network,
you need somebody who's behindyou, who supports your decisions.
(12:17):
In my case, that was myhusband. But it doesn't have to be
your spouse. But I think it'squite difficult to manage this if
your spouse is not behind yourchoices, as I am behind his, of course.
So I think the support thatthat gave as having someone who's
your undoubted greatestcheerleader gives you a huge amount
(12:37):
of strength. Not least becausewhen it's four kids and they're very,
very small, you need someonewho's able to be there and how you
solve that, there's manyanswers to that, as there are people.
You know, there's some peoplewho say, actually, my husband stayed
at home. I happen to have ahusband who works his fingers to
the bone at sort of going outto work. And he's a professor at
Imperial, so he's not like hehas a huge amount of bandwidth. But
(13:01):
between the two of us, it wasalways a team that could do it. So
that was. That's my sort ofjourney. But I think those two things
together is one, genuinelylove what you're doing and genuinely,
really, really want it. Andthe second is tap into your support
network, whatever that maylook like. You know, that could be
spies, that could be mum, thatcould be sister, that could be extended
family, whatever works. And weshould not be afraid or think it
(13:24):
makes us less to say, I needhelp, this is what I want to do,
but I can't do it unless youhelp me do it. Because I don't think
there's anyone in thatscenario who can do it on their own.
I certainly couldn't have.
And you mentioned supportnetwork a number of times for the
listeners who do now haveyounger children and who think, yeah,
great idea, I would like asupport network, but my mother lives
(13:46):
in Australia and my mother inlaw in Scotland. What has worked
for you to build that supportnetwork outside of immediate family
that you can pass on?
So that's a really interestingquestion. So I think that, again,
is as many answers as thereare people. So our challenge was
that when our kids were very,very small, we didn't actually have
anybody near us at all. Soboth of our sets of parents were
(14:09):
relatively far away and wouldnot be able to tell. So, I mean,
I used to sort of joke attimes, because I was doing my PhD
at that time, is that Iliterally, and this was actually
a joke, I handed my pay slipover to the nanny because once with
tax, there was nothing left.So that's where we had to sort of
make that decision with myhusband to say, look, are going to
be supportive of me doing thisPhD, because otherwise I can't kind
(14:32):
of do it. So we have to throwsome money at the problem, actually,
which I also appreciate. Noteveryone is in the position that
they can do. And don't get mewrong, that required a lot of sacrifice.
It was definitely a massiveluxury item that we had to then sort
of work around. So I thinkit's looking at whatever your levers
are, whether it is extrasupport, whether it is looking for
(14:53):
different ways to access somesort of support, whatever you can
do. If it's not family, is itfriends? You know, very often we
just sort of shared along withour friends, sort of drop offs and
pickups and things like that,just to give yourself a little bit
more time. And it's hardbecause, not to put too fine a point
in it, you've got lovelynannies who will be having a fantastic
time with your kids whilstyou're, you know, slugging your guts
(15:17):
out at work and you think, I'dmuch rather be there. So that's why
sort of the sacrifice has tobe sort of enough. And for me the
challenge was, and hopefullytouch wood I managed to get it right
is how do I stay working butstill be the mum that I want to be?
Which is that, to use aphrase, you know, I always wanted
(15:39):
to. I'm my children's truenorth star. I set the values. If
there is any sort of problemsthat they might have or if there's
any concerns that I'm the onethey come to and they know they can
come to. So they don't eventhink, oh, I mustn't disturb mummy
because she's working. Youknow, I'd want them to say, you have
to come. So how do you havethat? And that's a moving target.
(15:59):
You know, kids are still, youknow, you're not out the other end.
It's that constant sort ofinteraction and conversation with
your kids. And for me thatsolution has been around two main
guiding lights. One is I'vealways felt for my kids anyway, the
number one thing is all kidsneed is to know that they are loved,
that they are lovedunconditionally, truly doesn't matter
(16:20):
what they do, that the love isalways there. And for me that's always
had to be explicit. So theyare hugged and kissed and told that
they are loved and they toldthat they are valued so that you
have that emotional solidground to sit on. And the second
is to be really, really clearand consistent with what the rules
are. They're not unnecessarilystringent, but neither are they lenient.
(16:40):
They're all there for A reasonwhich can be clearly articulated
and are consistent acrosschildren and across time. And with
those two things together,hopefully then you're raising children
that know where they stand atany point and it allows them, gives
them that psychological,physical, mental consistency and
stability. Then they don'teven think about those things because
(17:02):
that's a given. So the braincan work on developing, on learning,
on educating and all thosethings. So probably it comes through
that I've worked hard at beinga good mother. Not to say I got it
right. Goodness knows I'vemade more mistakes than I've had
hot dinners. But that this hasbeen an active process and a choice
as to how to keep those thingsgoing. And to move back to your earlier
(17:24):
question, yeah, 100% therewere times when you think do I really
want to do this? And theanswer to that was always yes, I
really, really do. And then itcame down to okay, if something's
not working, how am I going tofix it?
And aside from the nanny, whatwas the most powerful fix? I like
this, the idea of fixingsomething, I'm sure, I'm sure in
practicality it's not alwaysthat easy. But what was the most
(17:47):
powerful fix that you had inplace by the time that your fourth
child arrived, but that tookyou a while to figure out?
I think what I did is I. Thissounds quite ridiculous. I optimized
my systems so everything hadan sop. So you know, whether how
we diary share, who does what,how we communicate. It's much easier
(18:09):
now. So you know, if you wentback, you know my first child was
born in 2005. So it's before alot of the social media, before a
lot of the software that weuse now. So it was much more analog,
you know, it was much moresort of printed diaries and, and
now of course it's much, mucheasier. But it is about sort of comp.
So all the systems would worklike the shopping would be really
(18:30):
easy, you know, the deliverieswould be really easy, the diaries
really easy. So you don't haveto have unscheduled interruptions
in your day about what am Idoing today or who's doing what.
So everything is really,really very clear how the week is
meant to run and what's meantto happen when. So I think whilst
not a fix it means that theroutine and the day to day happens
(18:51):
relatively effortlessly andthen you can deal with the curveballs.
But you know, despite thatthere are things that we all remember.
You just light heartedillustration is I remember coming
home one night and it Was theEaster hat parade very topical? It's
coming up and I kind of madesome things. I said, look, this is
probably really good fun. Youcan use it as a sort of an art thing.
And the nanny was going tomake it with one of the kids. And
(19:13):
I came home and I could. Therewas no Easter hat I could see. And
I thought, oh, my Goodness me,it's 8pm I've only just got home,
I'm absolutely on my knees.And I thought, I can't do this now.
So I went to bed after eatingand I said I was going to get up.
So I got up and I designed thehat in my head. I knew exactly what
I was going to do. So I got upat half past five and I thought it
was going to take me an hour.Give it a slip. It's hour and a half.
(19:33):
If I'm done at 7, I couldstill be out the door at 7:30. So
I got up at half past 5,remember, with a coffee, and I made
a big daffodil, completelyridiculous thing, easy. And then
it was done. And you're like,this is ridiculous. What am I doing?
It's 6am and I'm making adaffodil hat. But yeah, so the system
does fall down sometimes, butI think that was it, just to try
(19:53):
and get as much of itorganized as best as you can so that
you make your own life easier.
Yeah, I absolutely agree. Ihave to laugh because it's so illustrative
as I have three children andI'm pregnant with the fourth. And
as we're recording this, I canhear in the background that my partner
has brought the kids home andI forgot to tell him that I have
a podcast recording and I canhear them on the sound. But we'll
(20:16):
get the editor to make it allsound beautiful. But it's quite funny
that that's happening.
Every now and then. You'relike. And it's not until it happens
that you go, oh, hang on aminute. I can't remember reminding
him or her or, you know, whatever.
Absolutely, that's very true.And you've become a CEO, and that's
quite a rare thing generallyfor women and for mother. And it's
also a rare thing for anybodywho is female to get investment.
(20:40):
The stats are absolutelyridiculous. And obviously I'm assuming
for an organization like yoursthat needs stuff to produce those
medications, you need to havean investment. And I'm just interested
in if you can sell the CRO. SoI have an agenda here, which is I
want more of our community tobecome CEOs in the long term to exactly
change, change this situation.I'm just thinking from your perspective,
(21:02):
why has it been worth goingdown that route of setting up leading
a company?
(25:15):
So I think one of the thingsthat comes out sometimes of some
of the research, and I don'treally like not talking about it,
but I don't like emphasizingit because I think one can talk oneself
into failure, is this idea ofself limiting beliefs, which I think
is a thing. But it almostleads people to start thinking that
women need fixing because it'salways around accelerators and mentorship,
(25:38):
which is great. But a lot ofpeople say we don't need fixing,
we don't need any more sort ofwork, shopping or anything like that,
just give us funding. And Ithink that's probably resonates with
most women who are looking andlooking to fundraise and leading
organizations. But tappingback into that, there is absolutely
no reason why someoneshouldn't go for that role because
(26:00):
either they don't seethemselves in there or they think
it's difficult, or they thinkit'd be really hard for me to do
because complete sentence willbe difficult for me to raise, it'll
be difficult for me to makeit, etc. If we just cast off any
of these shackles and acceptthat these are difficult roles. You
know, surgery is difficult,you know, being a CEO is difficult,
(26:20):
being a leading engineer isdifficult. That doesn't make them
less worth doing, it makesthem more worth doing. And it's difficult
for everyone. So it'sdifficult whether you're a boy or
a girl, it doesn't matter.They are difficult things and they're
difficult things to do. Well,so if we just say yes, it's difficult
and then just ignore thatbecause if that's the thing that
(26:41):
leads in your head, thenyou'll never go for it. But that
would be the case for anythingthat's a challenge in your life.
So I go back to my originalthing is you do something that really
you love and the love and thepassion kind of almost blinds you
to the difficulty. Not thatyou don't know it's that of course
you do, but it doesn't bindyou. Difficulty, I'll rephrase, but
(27:04):
blinds you to the selflimiting nature of the difficulty.
So you can see the difficultyfor what it is and then go right,
how am I going to deal withit? You know, how do I overcome it
as opposed to it's sodifficult, I'm not even going to
have a go so that's the kindof mindset.
At the moment you have whatmany people would describe as a portfolio
(27:25):
career. You also haveteenagers. Everyone who has teenagers
tells me they need you at themoment when they need you. And there's
a lot less flexibility to whenthey need your attention. How do
you deal with that?
So the need changes becausewhen they're small, you know, they've
got great capacity to doreally silly things like try and
jump off things and you know,various ingenious ways of trying
(27:47):
to kill themselvesunintentionally. So you have to physically,
you know, the physicality ofthe care is probably the greatest
thing. You know, when they'revery small, of course they're literally
dependent on you becauseyou're feeding them, you're cleaning
them, you're picking them upand all of those things as they get
a little bit older, then it'sa little bit more around just managing
their life. And they kind of,for the most part do what you've
(28:07):
scheduled them to do, go toschool, get picked up, go to an after
school club, etc. The wholething around the teenage years is
of course to say, look, you'vegot more autonomy and you've got
more choice. And the thingthat we've tried to map to that bit
of their life is that you havegot more autonomy provided you keep
choosing the right things,make the right choices. And if you
(28:28):
don't, some of that autonomywill be scaled back. And of course
you scaffold them relativelyearly on and then you scaffold them
a little bit less as time goeson. And we all make bad choices,
adults make bad choices. Andwhen that bad choice happens, you
can kind of course correct andsay this was a bad choice because.
But that kind of allows you tohave a two way dialogue and a discussion
with your kids. Andundoubtedly they need you when they
(28:51):
need you. Those points, youhave to focus on that the immediacy
is more around that moment intime as opposed to that exact point
in time. You know what I mean?Like a baby needs feeding now, there's
no question around that, youknow, no matter what you're doing,
that baby's getting fed rightnow, this second. Whereas if you've
got a teenager that sort ofneeds you now because of a bullying
(29:12):
or some online stuff orwhatever, that's something that is
much more nuanced and theyneed you now. But you also need to
form a strategy around itbecause you're just sitting them
down going, well, let's talkabout the, you know, the issue you've
got at school, they're notgoing to do that. So it's more saying
if you have that conversationwith the kids or the two flow anyway
and that goes, then thatallows you opens that window to say,
(29:34):
okay, so this is the problem.And then you see it as a slightly
longer game. We're not justgoing to sit down and solve this.
Okay, this is an issue now.It's going to be at my area of focus
with you, number one child ortwo child or whatever for the next
couple of weeks. That's what Isay in my head. And then every time
we chat or have a good storyand I go, oh, by the way, you know
that thing, what's happenedabout that? So that you can start
(29:56):
sort of gather. So they doneed you when they need you. But
it's not so much that shortsharp spell of immediacy, it's more
a slower burn over probably alonger period of time, but does need
your focus and needs yourintellectual and analytical focus.
Because they don't yet havethe tools to solve some of these
(30:17):
complex problems, you know,and some of them are anything that
you know that's hard foradults to solve, social media, you
know, bullying, inappropriatesigns that some people might be showing
them, etc. So some of them arevery, very challenging things and
certainly not, not suitablefor immediate, immediate solving.
That makes sense.
They're starting to enter theworld of adults which is also the
(30:39):
world of complex challengesthat aren't simple.
Exactly.
You are a leader in a biotechfirm. Obviously you know pharma very
well. What's your gutinstinct? What needs to change to
have more women and especiallyalso more mothers continuing to get
to those exec director, CEOpositions in those areas.
(31:02):
That's a very, very complexquestion. So, and I think lots of
people were talking aboutthat. So I think that's a multi pronged
approach. Some of it is us,but some of it is a societal thing.
So I'll give you an examplethat raised its head recently, which
I actually think is a verygood idea. So you might remember
some time ago there was acampaign, a government initiated
(31:23):
campaign that said this girlcan. And it was around getting more
women and girls to stay insports because the study showed that
actually a lot of girls dropsports very, very quickly so they
don't stay in it. And part ofit was body image, part of it was
what would they think? And itwas a very, very clever ad because
it showed normal women andgirls doing normal sports. So it
(31:45):
wasn't all idealized andairbrushed. And it was very powerful
because it showed the strengthand the benefit and the fun in all
of that. I would suggest weneed something like that for women
in these very, very exciting,difficult. Don't want to necessarily
use the word high poweredbecause it's not about the high power,
(32:07):
but it is about that being atthe front edge of these STEM innovation
positions. So I would suggest,if any government policymakers are
listening, that having acampaign like that, you know, if
you were to see on abillboard, this lady I listened to
at India House, one of theengineers and she's met a Fellow
of the Royal Society, wasanother one. So if you saw these
(32:29):
people and there was someonewho was a nuclear physicist who works
at Cambridge, you know, theseare amazing women. If you saw them
and then had just a teeny tinybio, you'd look them up. Little QR
code, look them up. That wouldchange the mindset not just of girls,
but of boys and not just ofwomen, but also of men. And then
there is that visibilitybecause nobody, obviously EDI is
(32:53):
taking a hit. And part of itis because, and I think most people
can get behind this, thereshouldn't be any diversity without
meritocracy. Nobody wants tobe. I certainly wouldn't want to
be hired as a tick boxexercise, but at the same time I
don't not want to be hiredbecause of being female. So it just
should be as much of a levelplaying field as possible. So that's
(33:13):
one thing, I think there's avisibility point and the other thing
is that really makes adifference is I actually think more
women in finance andinvesting, because that kind of puts
a different flavor on it. Andto anybody who sort of is looking
at doing that, I would suggestthat if you're a mum, that you're
(33:34):
trying to do all of thesethings and manage all of your time
and you know, you're going tobe very resilient, you're going to
be very adaptable, you'regoing to be very flexible and persistent
and quite strong overall. Sothose are all really, really good
sort of strengths to bring toit. At that point. You probably find
people will have differentopinions. You know, there's all sorts
of questions around, how doyou lead? What's a female leader?
(33:57):
How do you do that? Which Ithink is for a different time, for
a different conversationnecessarily, but that can be it.
And the word albeit overused Ithink is really apt for this one
is just you've got to beauthentic, you've got to be you as
the saying goes, everyone elseis taken. So you've got to know who
you are and be able tocommunicate that very clearly. Those
are some of the things that wecan do as individuals, but then can
(34:21):
also be done around societyand potentially across government.
I couldn't agree more. Ireally like this idea of a campaign
and I've recorded now morethan 200 episodes and we'll release
this episode as part of a CEOseries, which we've done a number
of times. And thank you somuch for being part of sharing your
story. Everybody's story isslightly different, but just sharing
that actually you are there inthis position and you're still standing
(34:43):
and you're making a differencethrough that. I think that's an incredibly
important piece of the puzzle.We've done research and it showed
that 6% of working parentssaid their motivation to get to senior
leadership would increase ifthere were more role models in their
sector. To me, that wassurprising because I always was laughing
(35:03):
a little bit at all theseefforts by big companies to create
role models. I thought it wasjust a tick box exercise, but actually
it does make a difference. Sowe definitely need to keep doing
it.
Yeah, 100. 100. And it's oncealso very. I think it was Madeleine
Albright that said there's aspecial place in hell for women who
don't help other women. And soI think part of that, as you journey
(35:24):
through a find your tribe,find people of which there are many
men and women, incidentally.And I think that's probably one thing
I didn't say. I think some ofmy strongest advocates at work, mainly
because they all have just onthe balance of probabilities and
the odds have been men whosupported the next generation of
surgeons, men or women. Sothey, as long as you did what you
were meant to do and performas you're meant to perform, then
(35:46):
they were supportive. So I'vehad immense support from seniors.
And it's an interesting thingbecause I role modeled them even
though they weren't women.There was a few women, but there
were 99% of them were men.That didn't kind of matter. I sort
of thought, I want to be likeyou. And the gender thing didn't
matter. I thought actuallyyou're compassionate, you're kind,
(36:07):
you support, you help. That'swhat I want to be. So I think that's
the other thing. I think wedon't necessarily need to see that
role modeling in anotherwoman. It helps, of course it does,
but it does. It doesn't haveto be that way it's more around the
human thing and the human sideof things and say, and we've got
great, great advocates formore women in biotech. So recently
with International Women'sDay, Dan Mahoney, who's the chair
(36:29):
of the BIA was amazing. Youknow, he's been a real to say ally
probably doesn't quiteencompass it enough. So there are,
and there's lots of peoplethat are like that. So I think seek
them out and, and surroundwith yourself with those even if
they're very busy, even ifit's just a coffee or something.
You know, most people do wantto give back and they do want to
support. So there is stuff outthere. So get that. Because to your
(36:51):
earlier question, that willgive you the strength, that will
give you the support and attimes when perhaps you're a little
bit faltering may just beenough to keep you on the straight
and narrow and keep you supported.
Absolutely. And on that note,anyone who does want that practical
group of people who have yourcorner, it is worth checking out
the Leaders plus Fellowship,which are social enterprise runs,
(37:13):
because it does exactly that.It brings together people who want
to progress their careers andwho happen to have children, men
and women. We are operating ina system that isn't quite designed
for people who have care andresponsibilities and actually sometimes
that can be hard and it's areally good thing to surround yourself
with like minded people. Andalso we have senior leader mentors
(37:33):
who share their experience,who perhaps have children who've
grown up, who really want togive back to people from Iran. So
again I have an agenda whichis to get more people into those
CEO roles. And one questionI'm interested in is what qualities
do you now need to exhibit asa CEO that you didn't have to exhibit
in a more junior role wherethe box didn't stop with you?
(37:55):
Yeah, that's a veryinteresting question. And probably
I have to say I think thereisn't a great difference in the sense
that I personally, and I thinkthis is a generalization thing, always
thought that to some degreethe buck does always stop with you
for what you're doing. So youcan't say, oh, someone else will
(38:20):
pick that up or that's not mybit, you know, someone else can do
it. So I think giving it tosay 100% doesn't really quite encapsulate
what I'm trying to say. But togive it that dedication and that
focus, to give the best thatyou can deliver at any given time,
I think holds true and in somerespects, you need to have that even
when you're a junior, becauseif you don't, then no one can see
(38:44):
you in the CEO role becauseyou're not really taking all the
responsibility you need to betaking in order for you to perform
at a CEO level. So you almosthave to do that. Not just to say,
go above and beyond. Doesn'tquite really paint the picture, but
you have to do everything thatyou can do in the bit that you can
influence. And that is howleaders are made, whether you'll
(39:05):
get to see or whatever else.And that's the bit that gets you.
I mean, if you're thinkinglike that the whole time, then you're
sort of preparing. I'll giveyou a sort of CEO, but I'll give
you that sort of more surgicalexample of that as you're training
and you're going along theperson that you. There's always someone
senior to you until you becomeconsultant. And when you're the consultant,
(39:26):
you're the one that carriesthe can for pretty much everything.
So when you're junior, youkind of take it for granted that
it isn't new. But for my part,I've always thought, well, what if
it is me? And I've always beenvery reflective around examining
situations where, well, if itwas me, I couldn't handle it. I needed
to call someone to help. Andbeing reflective around those points
(39:49):
allowed me to. To grow eachtime a challenge that I couldn't
overcome myself presenteditself. So I was consistently pushing
myself to say, how can I bebetter because I'm not perfect. No
one's ever the finishedarticle. I still do that now. This
is not like you get to somepinnacle and it stops. It doesn't
stop. It's still there. So.And I do that now as a CEO, as a
(40:11):
surgeon, I'll get to a pointand I'll think, I'm not 100% sure
that I'm doing this 100% theway it should be done. So very often
where I go for the team, youknow, I'll phone a friend and I've
got lots of really amazingadvisors that I can talk to and say,
listen, can I just runsomething past you? And that's the
thing. So be really goodaround examining bits where you can
(40:33):
be better. This is what I tryand do and surround yourself with
people that are able to giveyou that advice when you need it.
And then you sort of takethat, internalize it, work it through
as a worked example, and rinseand repeat. And that allows for A
continuous improvement andlearning. So trying to always push
yourself to a point whereactually the buck really stops with
me. But also being reflectiveand saying, I know I have limits.
(40:55):
I'm not perfect, I'm not thefinished article, I never will be,
I don't think. And thenexamine those and then go for people
and rely on people who arebetter than you because there's always
someone better than you.
That's very true. On the topicof advice I'm interested in, obviously
your children. In 10 yearstime or so, they might be out of
your house and they might evenbe starting to think about how they
might combine big demandingcareers with children. Is there anything
(41:21):
that you would say to themthat you haven't said on this podcast
yet?
Yes, I think the answer isit's not an either or. I think that
is self limiting. And there isthis sort of very unhelpful phrase
of having it all. Not evensure I know what that means. But
if it means family and career,then you can have both of those things.
(41:44):
But just how that plays out isvery individual. And it's not perfect.
And it doesn't have to be.That's really important actually,
you know, it doesn't have tobe. And guilt is baked into motherhood.
We're guilty about all thethings and we need to let go of that.
And particularly if you'revery high flying and high achieving
that when you first starthaving kids and the whole thing goes
(42:06):
sideways because the house isthis and the kids are that and the
career, that's just fine.There's no race, there's not a competition.
We're on this for a finiteamount of time. And the things that
really matter are things likelove, family, career for most people.
And so there's plenty of time.There's plenty of time. And trying
(42:29):
to live in that moment becauseby the way, the days are long, but
the years are very short. Andall of a sudden you blink and you
think it was but yesterdaythat I was sitting bleary eyed and
I thought I'd never sleepagain for the rest of my life. So
just enjoy the ride. And it'snot going to be perfect. And that
(42:51):
is perfect. The imperfection,the messiness, that is how it's meant
to be. And it's not a race.It's your speed and it's your life.
And nothing personally is thegreater gift than having a family
and a kid. It's the best thingthat I think I've ever done. So don't
sweat the small stuff. Don'tAim for perfection and live in the
(43:15):
moment.
What a wonderful final wordfor our podcast. Thank you so much
Nara. If someone would like tofind out more about your thinking
or your verb, where shouldthey head?
So easiest is always I'mafraid I'm going to go social media
and LinkedIn. I am very goodat trying to get through all my messages
but it sometimes takes me sometime so feel free to reach out. Forgive
(43:37):
me if I don't reply very fast,but I will do. And yeah, very happy
to help when I can. Or if I'mnot the right person because I'm
not going to be the rightperson for everything or everybody,
then direct you to someone who is.
I really appreciate youlistening. Thank you so much and
I always love to hear from ourlisteners. If you want to connect
with me on LinkedIn, just goto Ferina Hefti and I'd be delighted
(44:02):
to hear your feedback and yoursuggestions or just have you say
hi. Likewise, if you do feelpassionately about gender equality
and you want to support afemale led podcast, then please do
leave a review on and share itwith a friend. Just because at the
moment podcasting is still avery very male dominated environment.
(44:23):
Most of the top chartingpodcasts are led by men. I really
love all the people who'vejoined from the podcast our fellowship
program and if you want to dothe same then please head over to
leadersplus.org Fellowship inoperation order to get access to
a community of support to helpyou combine ambitious career with
(44:45):
young children together withpeople who have your back. See you
next week.
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