November 12, 2024 • 39 mins
Unlock the secrets of effective note-taking in our latest episode, promising to transform how students and educators grasp and retain information. Our engaging conversation with Donn Kirkwood, a senior leadership coach with a specialty in literacy, provides a treasure trove of practical strategies designed to boost understanding and retention in classroom settings. We explore the pitfalls of relying solely on technology, like snapping pictures of slides, and delve into the power of translating information into one's own words for a deeper learning experience.
Discover innovative ways to enhance classroom discussions through diverse note-taking methods that encourage unique perspectives and peer interaction. We introduce dynamic activities such as "speed dating" and inner-outer circles, which create opportunities for students to share, validate, and refine their notes collaboratively. These approaches not only build confidence but also ensure that students are equipped to apply their notes to future learning situations, ultimately fostering mastery of the material.
Experience the impact of active note-taking strategies on student learning and memory retention. We highlight the importance of repetition and experiential learning, introducing the three-column note-taking format that encourages summarization, reflection, and real-world application of key concepts. With these tools, educators can better prepare students for assessments and assignments, ensuring that knowledge is solidified in long-term memory. Delve into the intricate dance between cognitive processes and instructional coaching as we reveal insights from our discussion with Dawn, setting the stage for future dialogues on mastering cognition in education.
Download Donn's Three-Column Notetaking handout.
The Southern Regional Education Board is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that works with states and schools to improve education at every level, from early childhood through doctoral education and the workforce.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Ashley Shaw.
As usual, I'll be the host ofthis episode, and with me is my
co-host, dan Rock.
Welcome, dan.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, how are you doing Ashley?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I am doing great.
I am really looking forward toour topic today because it's
something that I know.
I struggle with a lot in myclasses, so I'm hoping that
we're going to have a reallygreat lesson today.
With a lot in my classes, soI'm hoping that we're going to
have a really great lesson today.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Well, I think you're going to really like it, because
I've got some good people linedup for you in the next few
episodes.
What is something that you'reconcerned about?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Okay.
So this is something thatactually I could improve on, not
just my students, so I can'treally judge them for this.
But one thing that they're notgreat at that I'm also not great
at is taking notes.
I want them to actually, whenwe are talking about things in
class, take notes on it, andtake notes that are actually
going to help them, and I wantto learn how to take notes that
(00:58):
will actually help me, so I'mgoing to help everybody today.
Do you have anybody that canhelp with that?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yes, that's a great thing to think about as a
teacher, because we assume thatwe all agree what taking notes
means and what effective waysthere are, and the question is
is there certain strategies thathave been proven to help kids
retain information?
The best person I think to helpyou with that is Don Kirkwood.
(01:25):
Don Kirkwood is a seniorleadership coach.
He works all over the countrywith teachers and leaders and
helps them use really some ofthe best evidence-based
practices.
He really has a deepunderstanding of what the
science of learning is, and Ithink that is the kind of help
(01:49):
that's going to really appeal towhat you're trying to do.
So let's get Don in here.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
All right, I'm looking forward to talking to
him and I'll talk to you afterthe episode.
Excellent.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Hi Don, Hi Ashley, Thank you for this amazing
opportunity to sit down and talkabout note-taking today.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I am looking forward to it, because if you can help
me get my students to be betternote-takers, then I am going to
love this episode.
But before we get into that,can you please tell me a little
bit about who you are?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I am Dawn Kirkwood, a senior leadership coach at the
Southern Regional EducationBoard, where I focus on
improving literacy skills acrossthe nation, especially in the
South.
My work involves collaboratingwith educational leaders to
develop instructional frameworkswith professional support, and
then working with teachers toimplement strategies that
(02:42):
enhance literacy outcomes forstudents at every stage of
learning.
I am passionate about the roleliteracy plays in shaping
personal and academic success.
I am committed to helpingschools and communities create
environments where all learnerscould thrive and reach their
full potential.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Well, that sounds great.
As an ELA instructor, anybodythat focuses on literacy is a
great person.
But also it's a really helpfulthing, because today I would
like to talk to you about sometips on getting my students to
be better note takers and hey, Ineed to take notes sometimes
too.
Maybe you'll give me some tipson how to be a better note taker
that I can use along with mystudents.
(03:24):
So I think somebody focused onliteracy should be pretty good
at that.
What do you have for us aboutnote taking?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Well, let me just ask a simple question how are you
taking notes right now?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So you mean my students or me, Like right now.
You said you're taking notes.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I see the pen in your .
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Do you have a strategy that you feel that
works?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I have a piece of blank paper that says Don's
episode note-taking.
That's what it says at the topand I literally just write down
ideas that you give me as you go.
I'll just write down thingsthat you say to me that I think
will help me in my class, and atthe end of this episode I might
do a little wrap up.
But there is no strategyinvolved.
(04:08):
It is literally a blank pieceof paper.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
What is the strategy you use with your students
within your classroom?
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I have slides.
Sometimes I try not to rely toomuch on slides, but I do have
slides and I tell them okay,every research out there says
you'll do better if you writedown the notes in your own words
.
So I will not share my slidesafterwards, except for in
special circumstances.
You have to take notes whileI'm talking through these and
(04:35):
then they get out their phoneand take a picture of each slide
.
So and then I just let them andI don't enforce anything.
So it doesn't do any goodbecause they're still not
writing it down in their ownwords.
And that's my note taking inclass strategy.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Interesting.
Let me ask you another questionwhy are you having to take
notes?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So because, like I tell them, the research that I
have seen suggests that.
You know, if I'm up there again, I try not to rely on strictly
lectures.
We do activities, we do things,we do discussions.
But at certain points I do needto do a little bit of lecturing
and when I'm doing that I'msaying it in my words, and all
the research says that you'regoing to get it better if you
(05:16):
put it in your words.
So I try to get them to takenotes.
It's not something that I check, I don't have to turn it in,
but because I think if they'rewriting it down what I'm saying,
but they're putting it in theirwords instead of mine, that
they're going to process itbetter and they're going to
remember it better.
But getting them to actuallytake the time to do that is an
uphill battle.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Oh, most definitely.
I think where we really need tostart is coming up with a clear
step strategy, a strategy thatstudents could use with
confidence in any situationwalking into a college class,
into an English class, into aCTE class.
So if they take a picture, thenit just becomes a document on
(05:57):
their phone that they couldreference.
There's no guarantee that theyactually are comprehending
what's in that picture.
But at the same time, we haveto be very careful that our
students don't just replicatewhat we give to our students.
Um, because when students copy,they're actually using a
(06:17):
different part of the brain.
I usually tell teachers thatyou could have a student that
just came here brand new fromanother country, that has no
English skills, and they couldcopy your slide perfectly, but
it doesn't mean they comprehendit Right.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
But it just starts there.
It's like we want the studentsto really comprehend the
information.
Now I would always try to pushstudents or teachers more
towards having students take adocument and find their own key
details and sometimes prettymuch doing what you did to put
(06:59):
all that information into thatPowerPoint.
Into that PowerPoint, Becausewhen we look at the ACT, 51% of
the questions is about studentsidentifying key information.
So how do we give them thoseopportunities, those experiences
in the classroom?
Now we have so much content wehave to teach.
(07:19):
We often try to just summarizeit all for them and put it into
a presentation and then all of asudden we find ourselves
lecturing and sometimes we findourselves bored out of our mind
because we're waiting for thelast student to get everything
off that slide and they'realways raising their hand oh,
give me another minute.
We have some students that havefinished it up rather quickly
(07:45):
and they're sitting there like,oh, what can I do while I wait
for that one student to finishup that?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
slide, that means talk to the person beside them
that's also already taken apicture of it and not written
anything down Exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
We want to take note taking and turn it into a
learning experience for students, Like not only are they
comprehending the information,but they're processing the
information.
Have you ever heard about chunkthe information?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Can you tell us what it is?
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Well, when we look at the attention span of these two
, we're probably looking atmaybe nine to 12 minutes.
But if we're able to chunk theinformation that moves from and
how I would chunk it is to moveback and forth, from
comprehending taking theinformation from you to
(08:41):
processing, making connections,real life situations.
Sometimes we do it as teacherswe try to narrate it and bring
the information to life, but atthe same time we own it.
When we do that, it's morepowerful if we take the time
(09:03):
instead of moving to the nextslide, have them really discuss
with someone, giving them athinking partner.
You know, we want the studentsto really have an opportunity to
pause.
That's bringing in some of thatwait time we always hear about
wait time but allowing themfirst to take the information
(09:26):
and then discuss the information.
And it doesn't have to be long.
It could take 30 seconds, allright, you know, and sometimes I
would almost want thediscussion to happen prior to
really the note taking, likegiven the slide and as you give
the information and say, okay,let's go ahead and discuss with
(09:49):
someone next to you what theslide is saying why is this
important and then, based onthat discussion, make that your
notes instead of saying copythis, because if they copy this,
they take pictures of something.
It goes back to what you'resaying, like who owns it?
I don't want to be the owner ofthe information.
(10:11):
When I'm teaching, I want thestudents to take ownership of
the information.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I really like that concept making them the owners.
So thank you for saying that.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
So when we're looking at note-taking, I really
encourage and encourage with theteachers that so thank you for
saying that really comprehendthe vital information we're
trying to give them asinstructors, but we're also
(10:47):
facilitating conversations toallow them to process the
information.
Once they process theinformation, the note-taking is
always a part of a scaffoldright.
So we got to give them thisbackground information, this
vital information, for them tobe successful in the next step.
(11:09):
Hopefully the next step is nota test but it moves into some
type of project where they'regoing to have to tap into that
information and actually applythat information.
And sometimes what we reallylack doing with students is
(11:37):
being very transparent lettingthem know exactly why you're
taking these notes and how theselooking for you know teachers,
to give students the opportunityto go from the reading to the
writing and to be able to becomethe ownership of that
information.
What are your thoughts?
How would that work within yourclasses that you're teaching
(11:57):
right now?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I think that that'd be really useful.
I mean anything that I can getthem doing.
Obviously, it's for mespecifically teaching
composition.
They're going to be writing anessay and it is their whole goal
(12:27):
is information.
I'm giving them and rephrase itin their own words.
But get what they need out ofit and not just rephrasing, not
just summarizing.
Summarizing plus a little bitmore maybe is a good way to say
that.
So, yes, but I can also seeoutside of my ELA class, any
class I mean.
(12:47):
I could see that have beenhelpful to me in a math class if
it's not just knowing the stepsbut understanding how the steps
work, so that when I get ahigher level math problem later
on, you know I can understand.
Oh, this goes back to thatthing I learned last semester.
So I can see this being veryhelpful in every class, not just
mine, which is always excitingfor our listeners who might not
(13:11):
be teaching English classes likeme.
So that seems great.
Let's go back to specificthings that we can do to create
that note-taking strategy.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
One thing I would keep in mind is that, like the
notes, is that we want toprepare students for their
conversations.
So the best way to preparestudents for a good conversation
is taking good notes.
But at the same time, we wantthe students to be able to share
different perspectives.
(13:43):
My goal is never to have all mystudents to have exact same
notes.
If I'm doing a great job as afacilitator in a classroom, then
every student's notes would bedifferent, so that way they're
able to bring their ownperspective into the
conversation, in their ideasabout what they are learning.
(14:05):
So that's one thing that I wouldsay is a tip is that a lot of
times you make your note takenopen-ended and make it around
the discussion of these bigideas.
Of course, it allows us asteachers to interject some key
ideas within those conversations, but at the same time, students
(14:29):
to interject their ideas.
I've always suggested thatreally having the three columns
sometimes two columns twocolumns of very simple input,
output we're going to have toengage the students in a lot of
different information.
So we're always inputtinginformation, but at the same
(14:51):
time, their output should goback to.
How do we prove this theory istrue?
So tying your notes to anessential question or a critical
focus question is essentialSometimes.
Coming back to that questionabout how can you use your notes
(15:11):
to answer this question keepsus really focused on the whole
purpose of taking notes.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Can I ask a question really quickly?
You're suggesting that I, asthe teachers, say this is the
essential question and thenthat's what they're focusing
questions that we could ask ourstudents that are very broad and
open.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
The easiest ones is like how might we prevent a
pandemic from occurring?
Right, there are so manydifferent ways.
We could look at healthcare.
We could look at healthcare, wecould look at vaccines, but at
the same time we could look athow we could prevent travel,
like no one getting on airplanes, and social distancing.
We could look at it as you know, just isolating the outbreak,
(16:20):
like maintaining it.
So when you have a very openquestion, then we're going to be
giving the student a lot ofinformation, but they're
constantly looking for ideas ofhow they would explain how we
might prevent a pandemic fromoccurring within the United
States or within the world.
So the more open that questionis to that standard or that
(16:44):
concept, let that really drivethe note-taking because
ultimately we want the studentto be able to show mastery of
that standard.
So if that student could answerthat question with evidence of
what they have learned or whatthey have really taken as notes
within that class, then weactually see the evidence of
(17:06):
that student's progressiontowards mastery.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I think that that's really interesting because I
noticed I wouldn't have thoughtof it until you just said it.
But, like at the beginning ofeach episode, I asked Dan a
question For this episode.
I said, hey, do you haveanybody that can help me figure
out tips on how to make mystudents better note takers?
And of course he sent me youand I do that for every episode.
(17:28):
So, as I'm sitting here takingnotes without realizing it, I am
filtering it through thatquestion.
You know I'm trying to get thetips.
I'm trying to pull out the tipsthat you're saying.
So, even though I'm obviouslylistening to everything you say,
I'm pulling out, as I'm takingmy notes, questions that
answered my essential questionthat I didn't even realize I had
, which is what could I do toget students to be better note
(17:49):
takers?
That's my essential questionfor the day.
So all my notes focus aroundthat and it does help me make me
a better note taker because Iknow what I'm looking for.
So, even though I didn't knowthat's what I was doing, I feel
like I'm taking your tip hereand my own note-taking and I can
definitely see how it'd behelpful to students.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Then you know, one thing that you just remind me is
that sometimes we think thatnote-taking is only between the
teacher and the student.
But what I've really encouragedand what has been powerful is
note-taking between student andstudents.
So a lot of times if I havethem read an article, I want
(18:28):
them, you know, maybe underlinethe critical information, the
key ideas, and then I have themtake that, they put it into
their notes, they elaborate onit, and then I'll do like an
inner outer circle, or I might.
My favorite is speed dating.
I just like saying speed datingbecause everyone looks at me
crazy, but you know, I even didit like a couple of days ago
(18:49):
with with CTE teachers.
I just had one line and then Ihad like 13 teachers and then I
had 13 teachers face those 13teachers, but I had them take
their notes and share theirnotes with the person across
from them, and then that personacross from them was taking
notes on the notes that theywere sharing with them, and the
(19:10):
goal is is just to go deeperinto that content that we're
presenting now.
And then after a minute I haveone of the lines, rotate one
down and then they share againand then rotate one, so, like
five minutes, not only are theybuilding confidence in the notes
that they took, but they'realso validating and getting the
(19:31):
feedback and really I would sayrefining those ideas, that
output when I was talking aboutthe input output and even in the
strategy that I shared with you, that it really starts with
those key ideas, those keyquotes that import information
and a lot of times, whatevergoes into that column is then
(19:55):
how do we make those connections, how do we, you know, really
relate it?
But then helping the studentrealize how do we apply it, like
how am I going to take thesenotes and why are these notes
going to help me be successfulin what I'm doing tomorrow or
the following days?
So giving the students theopportunity to really refine
(20:17):
those ideas through that speedediting activity, or sometimes
I'll call it the gauntlet, oryou could do as an inner outer
circle, depending on the roomyou have in the class.
Usually I only have room forlike two lines, but if we go
outside I'm definitely doing twocircles and just having fun
with it.
But it really allows thestudents to take ownership.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I really like that.
I tried something probably myfirst semester ever teaching
that another teacher hadsuggested to me on note taking
and I feel like yours is abetter version of what I tried
to do, which is that they had medo.
They suggested I do somethingcalled class note taker.
Class one student was assignedand they all got assigned at
(21:03):
least once over the semester tobe the note taker for the day
and they had to take notebooknotes for our joint notebook.
And then they started the nextclass.
They did a five minute summaryto remind everybody what we
talked about the last class andthere were some things that
worked really well with thatthat I really liked, but there
were a couple of things thatdidn't, which is that people
ended up relying on the notetaker's note instead of their
(21:23):
own and I wanted them takingtheir own and putting it in
their own words, and I thinkyours is an updated version of
that in that they're stilltaking their own notes, but
they're still hearing from theother students and getting their
perspective, which was thepurpose of the class note taker
was to hear not just my wordsbut another student that thought
like them or closer to them, atleast hear in their words, and
(21:47):
so I think that your idea hereis really really helpful for
that, because it does have kindof the best of both worlds, so I
really like that idea.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Well, if we think of the brain research right and the
repetition, so if a studentsays it seven to nine times, it
starts moving towards thatlong-term memory, like they're
going to be able to remember aconversation, like I'll always
remember this conversation withyou, To be able to have those
experiences where they'resharing with someone else.
(22:19):
It's easy for them to rememberthe conversation they had, like
in a inner outer circle or aspeed dating, then remembering
what they wrote on a piece ofpaper.
So when it comes time for thetest, it's like we're able to
recall something we could see,an experience, whereas just
(22:39):
recalling words from a page in abook that we read it's a lot
more difficult.
So it actually helps theretainability by being able to
share their notes with multiplepeople, because then they have
multiple experiences yes, Ireally like that.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I think that's a great idea.
All right, can we go back toyou said one thing that you like
is the three column format, ortwo column.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout what that is and how
teachers can use that in theirclass?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Well, being an advocate of active reading at
all times.
So any time a student isengaging in learning, there
should be some type of notetaking going on.
If they're watching a video, ifthey're pulling information
from a PowerPoint, if they'rereading a chapter in a book, if
they're reading infographic, ifthey're looking at a piece of
(23:33):
artwork, if they're looking atmath problem, we want it to make
it active.
So the three columns strategyallows any type of, I would say,
active reading to occur.
So it's just pretty simpleWhatever you're analyzing,
you're looking at, whateveryou're reading, wherever you
(23:55):
pull the information, that firstcolumn, in that graphic
organizer, would be really yourkey ideas in your keynotes, your
summary of what you're learning.
Sometimes teachers want to likekind of give the students all
that information and maybe leavesome blanks.
We want students to be able totake ownership of it, so they're
(24:17):
allowed to pick what they feelis important, but at the same
same time, they're working.
That summarizing skill, whichis essential, um, and then from
there in that next column, isreally like the processing.
How do you process thatinformation?
What is your reflection?
So, if you're using it with,like, let's say, inner outer
(24:38):
circle or speed dating, thatsecond column is where, as they
are sharing their ideas andtalking, they're writing more
reflection into that column butat the same time, kind of a
closing ticket.
You know, out the door ticketis now.
I want the students to preparethemselves for how they might
(24:59):
use this in the biggerassignments.
So using that last column toreally think about what is the
real world application of thisinformation?
How does this information applyto what I have on my agenda for
tomorrow or what the assignmentthat we're going to finish on
Friday is going to be?
So it becomes almost like ajournal.
(25:21):
So the next day you would flipit, they would have the same
three columns.
They could be watching a videotaking notes, conversation and
then reflection at the end ofthe class.
So it's a way to ensure thatthe students are really
comprehending, processing andseeing the application of the
notes that they're taking forthat day.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
All right, okay.
Well, that sounds great, so I'mgoing to show.
Since it's a note-taking, I'llshow you got three columns.
No, I don't have three columns.
I can't because of thebackground.
I'll put it in front of my face.
There we go.
See, I took note no threecolumns.
I need to be better about that.
But I took note and I willshare my notes on social media,
since this is about note taking.
(26:03):
I normally don't do that, but Ido want to kind of make sure
that I used some of your notetaking tips to actually take
some good notes here and figureout exactly what it is you
wanted us to get out of this.
Well, can you can?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
you read something from your notes.
Just give me something that youhave in your notes.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
That's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to sum up what wejust talked about and remind
everybody what we just said, andI'm going to rely on my great
note-taking skills here in orderto do that.
So we first talked about theneed to create a strategy.
Don't just say take notes.
Give them a strategy and a wayto take those notes.
We talked about chunking andbreaking a lesson down into
little sections, because theirattention span is not going to
be longer than like nine to 12minutes.
Then focus on an essentialquestion and make sure your note
(26:47):
taking is open-ended, soessential question that can
guide their notes as they'retaking it.
Try things like the threecolumn format, which is to have
the key concepts that's whatthey need to find first, but
then a reflection that lets themadd their own ideas and show
why it matters, and then puttingin that real world application.
(27:08):
And then try activities thatmake the note taking more active
, like speed dating, speed notetaking in class, where they can
share their notes with eachother and get new notes from
what they other students said,and they can go and get it from
a bunch of people and they'realso, at that point, repeating
what they've heard and it'slodging in their brains.
(27:29):
So how was my summary of whatyou talked about?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
It's a really good summary, but let's go a little
bit farther.
Can you take one of those keypoints that you just shared and
give me a reflection or aconnection?
Why is that important?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Okay, so I guess I'll pick make note-taking.
Open-ended is something I wrotein my notes.
So just like anythingopen-ended questions in class,
open-ended notes in class.
You have more time forreflection if it's open-ended
and it's not just a yes or no.
If you ask a yes or no question, they're going to write yes on
(28:08):
their paper and that's going tobe their notes for the day and
they're not going to getanything of it.
But if I can have them focusedon an open-ended question that
they're going to be answeringthroughout class, then they will
actually not only do better atlooking for key concepts around
that topic, but they'll alsohave more room for that
reflection piece in the realworld application because
they're actually able to thinkabout it instead of just writing
(28:30):
the fact down.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Excellent reflection.
Now let's go into that thirdcolumn.
I really would like to seewhat's the real world
application.
Let's say that you just got ajob with NASA and you got brand
new astronauts.
They're coming to you.
How would that benefit them inlearning how to prepare to go to
outer space?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Okay, I feel like if astronauts this is tough
Anything science related, I feellike if an astronaut was taking
notes about what was happeningin outer space, they're going to
need to know more.
Is that what you mean?
Or you mean like, how are mynotes going to help them?
Oh, you're the trainer, you'retraining the astronauts to get
ready.
I'm training them and they'retaking notes.
How would me getting them tofocus on open-ended questions
(29:17):
help them?
I have no interest in going toouter space.
I have no interest in going toouter space.
It sounds very scary, but Ifeel like if for some reason, I
had to, if they're forcing me togo to the you know live on Mars
or something, I would want tofocus on open-ended questions
because I don't want to justknow you know, what helmet do I
(29:38):
need and what's the oxygen levelthat I need, or whatever.
I want to know what's it like tobe on Mars Like?
What do I need to know?
What do I need to do?
What am I going to feel?
What am I going to be thinking?
What's going to be theanxieties that I have as
somebody who's scared of spaceand heights flying up into outer
space?
I want to know those things formyself.
(29:59):
So I don't want just fact-basedinformation.
I mean, I do want somefact-based information in that
situation, obviously, but Idon't want just fact-based.
I want to know what the realexperience is like.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
And I think our students feel the same way when
they come to our classroom.
Like everything you just said,it doesn't matter the content,
we want to know more about it.
I think sometimes we limit byjust giving them the facts.
By opening it up, we'reallowing curiosity, we're
allowing critical thinking,we're allowing problem solving,
(30:34):
and so I think your reflectionand your applications were spot
on.
Excellent job.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
You could have said smart.
Is that what you're going tosay?
I would have been sad,brilliant, magnificent.
Thank you, thank you, all right.
Well, you heard that bell.
That means we are almost out oftime.
Do you have some homework forus to do?
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Well, definitely, my homework is with your next class
.
Why not try out the threecolumns and really focus more on
the processing and theapplication than the note-taking
?
But the note-taking is going toget them to process the
information and apply theinformation.
But don't just make it just allabout note-taking.
(31:24):
Make it more about theprocessing and the application.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
All right, I really like that and I know that you
sent me a copy of thethree-column format, a handout
that they can use, so I will putthat in the show notes so that
you can see what thethree-column note-taking format
looks like and you can practiceit in your next classes by doing
today's homework and then tellus how it goes on social media.
(31:50):
So thank you for being heretoday, don.
I think this has been great.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
I hope you enjoyed it too.
I definitely did.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
All right, well good, we hope to have you back one
day and have a great rest ofyour day.
Thank you, bye, bye.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
All right, ashley.
What did you hear there thatreally stood out to you?
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I really like the games that he suggested, like
the speed dating.
I think of note-taking assomething you sit there and do
at your desk and I like the ideaof making it an activity just
like any other activity, wherethey practice the note-taking
and they report it to otherpeople in a fun way.
So that, to me, was a reallygood tip that I'd like to try.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
The idea of using your notes.
How are you going to use yournotes, taking them off the paper
and giving them practice with?
That is so important, andthat's something that he was
talking about.
So I'm thinking about what Dondid from the view of an
(32:58):
instructional coach.
If I'm an instructional coachand I want to help teachers with
taking notes, what are somethings that I heard him do?
And the first thing he askedwas he tried to zero in on your
purpose.
He said why are you having themtake notes?
And I thought that was a greatquestion because it made you
(33:19):
reflect on something that maybeyou hadn't even thought about
deeply.
Right, you just sometimes wejust have kids take notes
because it's time to take notes.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
That what is the goal ?
You're supposed to take notes,so take notes.
That's the purpose.
It's one of those things likewhen you ask your parents why is
that the rule?
Because I said so.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Why is this important ?
What does this have to do withour goal for this class?
And so that other thing that Iheard him do was talk about
transference.
So, as an instructional coach,you often work not just with one
department.
You often have to work withEnglish teachers, math teachers
(34:03):
one department.
You often have to work withEnglish teachers, math teachers
and one of the keys of education, I think, is teaching kids
skills that they can transferfrom class to class, and he was
probing you and asking you abouthow this skill could be used in
different classes and how itcould be applied across the
curriculum.
And that's just a probingquestion and a focus that I
(34:26):
think, as a coach, it'simportant to keep in our minds
what skills are we teaching kidsthat can be applied in multiple
classes?
That are learning skills?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, well, that's a really good point and it is
something that I'm alwaysinterested in this transference,
not just from class to class,but from grade to grade, from
the class to work, anything likethat.
So any skill that you can useacross everything you do is
really great.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
So another step coaching step he took that I
think is important is helpingyou to think about how the notes
connect to your critical focusquestion, Because he was trying
to keep you focused on thepurpose of taking notes right.
So that's the whole thing aboutwhat I said.
Why are you taking notes right?
So that's the whole thing aboutwhat I said.
Why are you taking notes?
Keeping it focused, keeping ourconversations focused on the
purpose of what it is you'retrying to accomplish and you
know he was talking to you aboutessential questions and having
(35:36):
a big essential question andthen taking notes to answer
those questions.
And I thought that wasimportant coaching move because
it connected the strategy to thecontent you're trying to help
students learn.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Right, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, and then the one last thing I wanted to
mention, which is, if you notice, he kept referring to some
brain research.
At one point he talked aboutrepetition and how repetition
helps you learn, and at anotherpoint he talks about chunking
and how you know you can onlypay attention to something for
(36:15):
so long.
The brain can only do that.
I believe and Don does too thatas coaches, we need to really
study how the brain learns, howthe brain processes information
and stores information for along time so that you can
(36:36):
retrieve it.
And what I hear in thatconversation is that Dawn has
studied not just literacy ornote-taking, but how the brain
processes information.
And my recommendation for anyinstructional coach is to find
literature and make yourself alearning expert, not just a
(36:58):
teaching expert.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
not just a teaching expert.
Does that make sense?
Yes, and I do think that thatmatters.
Knowing the way people thinkand the way they learn helps you
as a teacher, no matter whatyour subject is, and also I can
see helping any instructionalcoach.
Help a teacher.
So I think, that's a reallygreat point.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Sometimes we're content experts, like I'm an
expert in history or inliterature, but I need to be an
expert in how the brain learnsto read Right and how the brain
learns math best.
That's what I need to trulymaster as a instructional coach
and be able to share that withothers.
(37:40):
So those are my coaching pointsfrom Dawn's conversation.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
All right.
Well, I think those are reallygreat points.
I think they'll be very useful.
So thank you for joining meagain today to help us find the
coaching tips from our lesson,and have a great rest of your
day.
I'm looking forward to talkingto you next week.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Absolutely.
See you then.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Okay, bye.
Hello, welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Ashley Shaw.
As usual, I'll be the host ofthis episode, and with me is my
co-host, dan Rock.
Welcome, dan.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, how are you doing Ashley?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I am doing great.
I am really looking forward toour topic today because it's
something that I know.
I struggle with a lot in myclasses, so I'm hoping that
we're going to have a reallygreat lesson today.
With a lot in my classes, soI'm hoping that we're going to
have a really great lesson today.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Well, I think you're going to really like it, because
I've got some good people linedup for you in the next few
episodes.
What is something that you'reconcerned about?
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Okay.
So this is something thatactually I could improve on, not
just my students, so I can'treally judge them for this.
But one thing that they're notgreat at that I'm also not great
at is taking notes.
I want them to actually, whenwe are talking about things in
class, take notes on it, andtake notes that are actually
going to help them, and I wantto learn how to take notes that
(00:58):
will actually help me, so I'mgoing to help everybody today.
Do you have anybody that canhelp with that?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yes, that's a great thing to think about as a
teacher, because we assume thatwe all agree what taking notes
means and what effective waysthere are, and the question is
is there certain strategies thathave been proven to help kids
retain information?
The best person I think to helpyou with that is Don Kirkwood.
(01:25):
Don Kirkwood is a seniorleadership coach.
He works all over the countrywith teachers and leaders and
helps them use really some ofthe best evidence-based
practices.
He really has a deepunderstanding of what the
science of learning is, and Ithink that is the kind of help
(01:49):
that's going to really appeal towhat you're trying to do.
So let's get Don in here.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
All right, I'm looking forward to talking to
him and I'll talk to you afterthe episode.
Excellent.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Hi Don, Hi Ashley, Thank you for this amazing
opportunity to sit down and talkabout note-taking today.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I am looking forward to it, because if you can help
me get my students to be betternote-takers, then I am going to
love this episode.
But before we get into that,can you please tell me a little
bit about who you are?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I am Dawn Kirkwood, a senior leadership coach at the
Southern Regional EducationBoard, where I focus on
improving literacy skills acrossthe nation, especially in the
South.
My work involves collaboratingwith educational leaders to
develop instructional frameworkswith professional support, and
then working with teachers toimplement strategies that
(02:42):
enhance literacy outcomes forstudents at every stage of
learning.
I am passionate about the roleliteracy plays in shaping
personal and academic success.
I am committed to helpingschools and communities create
environments where all learnerscould thrive and reach their
full potential.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Well, that sounds great.
As an ELA instructor, anybodythat focuses on literacy is a
great person.
But also it's a really helpfulthing, because today I would
like to talk to you about sometips on getting my students to
be better note takers and hey, Ineed to take notes sometimes
too.
Maybe you'll give me some tipson how to be a better note taker
that I can use along with mystudents.
(03:24):
So I think somebody focused onliteracy should be pretty good
at that.
What do you have for us aboutnote taking?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Well, let me just ask a simple question how are you
taking notes right now?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So you mean my students or me, Like right now.
You said you're taking notes.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I see the pen in your .
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Do you have a strategy that you feel that
works?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I have a piece of blank paper that says Don's
episode note-taking.
That's what it says at the topand I literally just write down
ideas that you give me as you go.
I'll just write down thingsthat you say to me that I think
will help me in my class, and atthe end of this episode I might
do a little wrap up.
But there is no strategyinvolved.
(04:08):
It is literally a blank pieceof paper.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
What is the strategy you use with your students
within your classroom?
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I have slides.
Sometimes I try not to rely toomuch on slides, but I do have
slides and I tell them okay,every research out there says
you'll do better if you writedown the notes in your own words
.
So I will not share my slidesafterwards, except for in
special circumstances.
You have to take notes whileI'm talking through these and
(04:35):
then they get out their phoneand take a picture of each slide
.
So and then I just let them andI don't enforce anything.
So it doesn't do any goodbecause they're still not
writing it down in their ownwords.
And that's my note taking inclass strategy.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Interesting.
Let me ask you another questionwhy are you having to take
notes?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So because, like I tell them, the research that I
have seen suggests that.
You know, if I'm up there again, I try not to rely on strictly
lectures.
We do activities, we do things,we do discussions.
But at certain points I do needto do a little bit of lecturing
and when I'm doing that I'msaying it in my words, and all
the research says that you'regoing to get it better if you
(05:16):
put it in your words.
So I try to get them to takenotes.
It's not something that I check, I don't have to turn it in,
but because I think if they'rewriting it down what I'm saying,
but they're putting it in theirwords instead of mine, that
they're going to process itbetter and they're going to
remember it better.
But getting them to actuallytake the time to do that is an
uphill battle.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Oh, most definitely.
I think where we really need tostart is coming up with a clear
step strategy, a strategy thatstudents could use with
confidence in any situationwalking into a college class,
into an English class, into aCTE class.
So if they take a picture, thenit just becomes a document on
(05:57):
their phone that they couldreference.
There's no guarantee that theyactually are comprehending
what's in that picture.
But at the same time, we haveto be very careful that our
students don't just replicatewhat we give to our students.
Um, because when students copy,they're actually using a
(06:17):
different part of the brain.
I usually tell teachers thatyou could have a student that
just came here brand new fromanother country, that has no
English skills, and they couldcopy your slide perfectly, but
it doesn't mean they comprehendit Right.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
But it just starts there.
It's like we want the studentsto really comprehend the
information.
Now I would always try to pushstudents or teachers more
towards having students take adocument and find their own key
details and sometimes prettymuch doing what you did to put
(06:59):
all that information into thatPowerPoint.
Into that PowerPoint, Becausewhen we look at the ACT, 51% of
the questions is about studentsidentifying key information.
So how do we give them thoseopportunities, those experiences
in the classroom?
Now we have so much content wehave to teach.
(07:19):
We often try to just summarizeit all for them and put it into
a presentation and then all of asudden we find ourselves
lecturing and sometimes we findourselves bored out of our mind
because we're waiting for thelast student to get everything
off that slide and they'realways raising their hand oh,
give me another minute.
We have some students that havefinished it up rather quickly
(07:45):
and they're sitting there like,oh, what can I do while I wait
for that one student to finishup that?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
slide, that means talk to the person beside them
that's also already taken apicture of it and not written
anything down Exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
We want to take note taking and turn it into a
learning experience for students, Like not only are they
comprehending the information,but they're processing the
information.
Have you ever heard about chunkthe information?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Can you tell us what it is?
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Well, when we look at the attention span of these two
, we're probably looking atmaybe nine to 12 minutes.
But if we're able to chunk theinformation that moves from and
how I would chunk it is to moveback and forth, from
comprehending taking theinformation from you to
(08:41):
processing, making connections,real life situations.
Sometimes we do it as teacherswe try to narrate it and bring
the information to life, but atthe same time we own it.
When we do that, it's morepowerful if we take the time
(09:03):
instead of moving to the nextslide, have them really discuss
with someone, giving them athinking partner.
You know, we want the studentsto really have an opportunity to
pause.
That's bringing in some of thatwait time we always hear about
wait time but allowing themfirst to take the information
(09:26):
and then discuss the information.
And it doesn't have to be long.
It could take 30 seconds, allright, you know, and sometimes I
would almost want thediscussion to happen prior to
really the note taking, likegiven the slide and as you give
the information and say, okay,let's go ahead and discuss with
(09:49):
someone next to you what theslide is saying why is this
important and then, based onthat discussion, make that your
notes instead of saying copythis, because if they copy this,
they take pictures of something.
It goes back to what you'resaying, like who owns it?
I don't want to be the owner ofthe information.
(10:11):
When I'm teaching, I want thestudents to take ownership of
the information.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I really like that concept making them the owners.
So thank you for saying that.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
So when we're looking at note-taking, I really
encourage and encourage with theteachers that so thank you for
saying that really comprehendthe vital information we're
trying to give them asinstructors, but we're also
(10:47):
facilitating conversations toallow them to process the
information.
Once they process theinformation, the note-taking is
always a part of a scaffoldright.
So we got to give them thisbackground information, this
vital information, for them tobe successful in the next step.
(11:09):
Hopefully the next step is nota test but it moves into some
type of project where they'regoing to have to tap into that
information and actually applythat information.
And sometimes what we reallylack doing with students is
(11:37):
being very transparent lettingthem know exactly why you're
taking these notes and how theselooking for you know teachers,
to give students the opportunityto go from the reading to the
writing and to be able to becomethe ownership of that
information.
What are your thoughts?
How would that work within yourclasses that you're teaching
(11:57):
right now?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I think that that'd be really useful.
I mean anything that I can getthem doing.
Obviously, it's for mespecifically teaching
composition.
They're going to be writing anessay and it is their whole goal
(12:27):
is information.
I'm giving them and rephrase itin their own words.
But get what they need out ofit and not just rephrasing, not
just summarizing.
Summarizing plus a little bitmore maybe is a good way to say
that.
So, yes, but I can also seeoutside of my ELA class, any
class I mean.
(12:47):
I could see that have beenhelpful to me in a math class if
it's not just knowing the stepsbut understanding how the steps
work, so that when I get ahigher level math problem later
on, you know I can understand.
Oh, this goes back to thatthing I learned last semester.
So I can see this being veryhelpful in every class, not just
mine, which is always excitingfor our listeners who might not
(13:11):
be teaching English classes likeme.
So that seems great.
Let's go back to specificthings that we can do to create
that note-taking strategy.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
One thing I would keep in mind is that, like the
notes, is that we want toprepare students for their
conversations.
So the best way to preparestudents for a good conversation
is taking good notes.
But at the same time, we wantthe students to be able to share
different perspectives.
(13:43):
My goal is never to have all mystudents to have exact same
notes.
If I'm doing a great job as afacilitator in a classroom, then
every student's notes would bedifferent, so that way they're
able to bring their ownperspective into the
conversation, in their ideasabout what they are learning.
(14:05):
So that's one thing that I wouldsay is a tip is that a lot of
times you make your note takenopen-ended and make it around
the discussion of these bigideas.
Of course, it allows us asteachers to interject some key
ideas within those conversations, but at the same time, students
(14:29):
to interject their ideas.
I've always suggested thatreally having the three columns
sometimes two columns twocolumns of very simple input,
output we're going to have toengage the students in a lot of
different information.
So we're always inputtinginformation, but at the same
(14:51):
time, their output should goback to.
How do we prove this theory istrue?
So tying your notes to anessential question or a critical
focus question is essentialSometimes.
Coming back to that questionabout how can you use your notes
(15:11):
to answer this question keepsus really focused on the whole
purpose of taking notes.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Can I ask a question really quickly?
You're suggesting that I, asthe teachers, say this is the
essential question and thenthat's what they're focusing
questions that we could ask ourstudents that are very broad and
open.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
The easiest ones is like how might we prevent a
pandemic from occurring?
Right, there are so manydifferent ways.
We could look at healthcare.
We could look at healthcare, wecould look at vaccines, but at
the same time we could look athow we could prevent travel,
like no one getting on airplanes, and social distancing.
We could look at it as you know, just isolating the outbreak,
(16:20):
like maintaining it.
So when you have a very openquestion, then we're going to be
giving the student a lot ofinformation, but they're
constantly looking for ideas ofhow they would explain how we
might prevent a pandemic fromoccurring within the United
States or within the world.
So the more open that questionis to that standard or that
(16:44):
concept, let that really drivethe note-taking because
ultimately we want the studentto be able to show mastery of
that standard.
So if that student could answerthat question with evidence of
what they have learned or whatthey have really taken as notes
within that class, then weactually see the evidence of
(17:06):
that student's progressiontowards mastery.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
I think that that's really interesting because I
noticed I wouldn't have thoughtof it until you just said it.
But, like at the beginning ofeach episode, I asked Dan a
question For this episode.
I said, hey, do you haveanybody that can help me figure
out tips on how to make mystudents better note takers?
And of course he sent me youand I do that for every episode.
(17:28):
So, as I'm sitting here takingnotes without realizing it, I am
filtering it through thatquestion.
You know I'm trying to get thetips.
I'm trying to pull out the tipsthat you're saying.
So, even though I'm obviouslylistening to everything you say,
I'm pulling out, as I'm takingmy notes, questions that
answered my essential questionthat I didn't even realize I had
, which is what could I do toget students to be better note
(17:49):
takers?
That's my essential questionfor the day.
So all my notes focus aroundthat and it does help me make me
a better note taker because Iknow what I'm looking for.
So, even though I didn't knowthat's what I was doing, I feel
like I'm taking your tip hereand my own note-taking and I can
definitely see how it'd behelpful to students.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Then you know, one thing that you just remind me is
that sometimes we think thatnote-taking is only between the
teacher and the student.
But what I've really encouragedand what has been powerful is
note-taking between student andstudents.
So a lot of times if I havethem read an article, I want
(18:28):
them, you know, maybe underlinethe critical information, the
key ideas, and then I have themtake that, they put it into
their notes, they elaborate onit, and then I'll do like an
inner outer circle, or I might.
My favorite is speed dating.
I just like saying speed datingbecause everyone looks at me
crazy, but you know, I even didit like a couple of days ago
(18:49):
with with CTE teachers.
I just had one line and then Ihad like 13 teachers and then I
had 13 teachers face those 13teachers, but I had them take
their notes and share theirnotes with the person across
from them, and then that personacross from them was taking
notes on the notes that theywere sharing with them, and the
(19:10):
goal is is just to go deeperinto that content that we're
presenting now.
And then after a minute I haveone of the lines, rotate one
down and then they share againand then rotate one, so, like
five minutes, not only are theybuilding confidence in the notes
that they took, but they'realso validating and getting the
(19:31):
feedback and really I would sayrefining those ideas, that
output when I was talking aboutthe input output and even in the
strategy that I shared with you, that it really starts with
those key ideas, those keyquotes that import information
and a lot of times, whatevergoes into that column is then
(19:55):
how do we make those connections, how do we, you know, really
relate it?
But then helping the studentrealize how do we apply it, like
how am I going to take thesenotes and why are these notes
going to help me be successfulin what I'm doing tomorrow or
the following days?
So giving the students theopportunity to really refine
(20:17):
those ideas through that speedediting activity, or sometimes
I'll call it the gauntlet, oryou could do as an inner outer
circle, depending on the roomyou have in the class.
Usually I only have room forlike two lines, but if we go
outside I'm definitely doing twocircles and just having fun
with it.
But it really allows thestudents to take ownership.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I really like that.
I tried something probably myfirst semester ever teaching
that another teacher hadsuggested to me on note taking
and I feel like yours is abetter version of what I tried
to do, which is that they had medo.
They suggested I do somethingcalled class note taker.
Class one student was assignedand they all got assigned at
(21:03):
least once over the semester tobe the note taker for the day
and they had to take notebooknotes for our joint notebook.
And then they started the nextclass.
They did a five minute summaryto remind everybody what we
talked about the last class andthere were some things that
worked really well with thatthat I really liked, but there
were a couple of things thatdidn't, which is that people
ended up relying on the notetaker's note instead of their
(21:23):
own and I wanted them takingtheir own and putting it in
their own words, and I thinkyours is an updated version of
that in that they're stilltaking their own notes, but
they're still hearing from theother students and getting their
perspective, which was thepurpose of the class note taker
was to hear not just my wordsbut another student that thought
like them or closer to them, atleast hear in their words, and
(21:47):
so I think that your idea hereis really really helpful for
that, because it does have kindof the best of both worlds, so I
really like that idea.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Well, if we think of the brain research right and the
repetition, so if a studentsays it seven to nine times, it
starts moving towards thatlong-term memory, like they're
going to be able to remember aconversation, like I'll always
remember this conversation withyou, To be able to have those
experiences where they'resharing with someone else.
(22:19):
It's easy for them to rememberthe conversation they had, like
in a inner outer circle or aspeed dating, then remembering
what they wrote on a piece ofpaper.
So when it comes time for thetest, it's like we're able to
recall something we could see,an experience, whereas just
(22:39):
recalling words from a page in abook that we read it's a lot
more difficult.
So it actually helps theretainability by being able to
share their notes with multiplepeople, because then they have
multiple experiences yes, Ireally like that.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I think that's a great idea.
All right, can we go back toyou said one thing that you like
is the three column format, ortwo column.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout what that is and how
teachers can use that in theirclass?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Well, being an advocate of active reading at
all times.
So any time a student isengaging in learning, there
should be some type of notetaking going on.
If they're watching a video, ifthey're pulling information
from a PowerPoint, if they'rereading a chapter in a book, if
they're reading infographic, ifthey're looking at a piece of
(23:33):
artwork, if they're looking atmath problem, we want it to make
it active.
So the three columns strategyallows any type of, I would say,
active reading to occur.
So it's just pretty simpleWhatever you're analyzing,
you're looking at, whateveryou're reading, wherever you
(23:55):
pull the information, that firstcolumn, in that graphic
organizer, would be really yourkey ideas in your keynotes, your
summary of what you're learning.
Sometimes teachers want to likekind of give the students all
that information and maybe leavesome blanks.
We want students to be able totake ownership of it, so they're
(24:17):
allowed to pick what they feelis important, but at the same
same time, they're working.
That summarizing skill, whichis essential, um, and then from
there in that next column, isreally like the processing.
How do you process thatinformation?
What is your reflection?
So, if you're using it with,like, let's say, inner outer
(24:38):
circle or speed dating, thatsecond column is where, as they
are sharing their ideas andtalking, they're writing more
reflection into that column butat the same time, kind of a
closing ticket.
You know, out the door ticketis now.
I want the students to preparethemselves for how they might
(24:59):
use this in the biggerassignments.
So using that last column toreally think about what is the
real world application of thisinformation?
How does this information applyto what I have on my agenda for
tomorrow or what the assignmentthat we're going to finish on
Friday is going to be?
So it becomes almost like ajournal.
(25:21):
So the next day you would flipit, they would have the same
three columns.
They could be watching a videotaking notes, conversation and
then reflection at the end ofthe class.
So it's a way to ensure thatthe students are really
comprehending, processing andseeing the application of the
notes that they're taking forthat day.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
All right, okay.
Well, that sounds great, so I'mgoing to show.
Since it's a note-taking, I'llshow you got three columns.
No, I don't have three columns.
I can't because of thebackground.
I'll put it in front of my face.
There we go.
See, I took note no threecolumns.
I need to be better about that.
But I took note and I willshare my notes on social media,
since this is about note taking.
(26:03):
I normally don't do that, but Ido want to kind of make sure
that I used some of your notetaking tips to actually take
some good notes here and figureout exactly what it is you
wanted us to get out of this.
Well, can you can?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
you read something from your notes.
Just give me something that youhave in your notes.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
That's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to sum up what wejust talked about and remind
everybody what we just said, andI'm going to rely on my great
note-taking skills here in orderto do that.
So we first talked about theneed to create a strategy.
Don't just say take notes.
Give them a strategy and a wayto take those notes.
We talked about chunking andbreaking a lesson down into
little sections, because theirattention span is not going to
be longer than like nine to 12minutes.
Then focus on an essentialquestion and make sure your note
(26:47):
taking is open-ended, soessential question that can
guide their notes as they'retaking it.
Try things like the threecolumn format, which is to have
the key concepts that's whatthey need to find first, but
then a reflection that lets themadd their own ideas and show
why it matters, and then puttingin that real world application.
(27:08):
And then try activities thatmake the note taking more active
, like speed dating, speed notetaking in class, where they can
share their notes with eachother and get new notes from
what they other students said,and they can go and get it from
a bunch of people and they'realso, at that point, repeating
what they've heard and it'slodging in their brains.
(27:29):
So how was my summary of whatyou talked about?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
It's a really good summary, but let's go a little
bit farther.
Can you take one of those keypoints that you just shared and
give me a reflection or aconnection?
Why is that important?
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Okay, so I guess I'll pick make note-taking.
Open-ended is something I wrotein my notes.
So just like anythingopen-ended questions in class,
open-ended notes in class.
You have more time forreflection if it's open-ended
and it's not just a yes or no.
If you ask a yes or no question, they're going to write yes on
(28:08):
their paper and that's going tobe their notes for the day and
they're not going to getanything of it.
But if I can have them focusedon an open-ended question that
they're going to be answeringthroughout class, then they will
actually not only do better atlooking for key concepts around
that topic, but they'll alsohave more room for that
reflection piece in the realworld application because
they're actually able to thinkabout it instead of just writing
(28:30):
the fact down.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Excellent reflection.
Now let's go into that thirdcolumn.
I really would like to seewhat's the real world
application.
Let's say that you just got ajob with NASA and you got brand
new astronauts.
They're coming to you.
How would that benefit them inlearning how to prepare to go to
outer space?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Okay, I feel like if astronauts this is tough
Anything science related, I feellike if an astronaut was taking
notes about what was happeningin outer space, they're going to
need to know more.
Is that what you mean?
Or you mean like, how are mynotes going to help them?
Oh, you're the trainer, you'retraining the astronauts to get
ready.
I'm training them and they'retaking notes.
How would me getting them tofocus on open-ended questions
(29:17):
help them?
I have no interest in going toouter space.
I have no interest in going toouter space.
It sounds very scary, but Ifeel like if for some reason, I
had to, if they're forcing me togo to the you know live on Mars
or something, I would want tofocus on open-ended questions
because I don't want to justknow you know, what helmet do I
(29:38):
need and what's the oxygen levelthat I need, or whatever.
I want to know what's it like tobe on Mars Like?
What do I need to know?
What do I need to do?
What am I going to feel?
What am I going to be thinking?
What's going to be theanxieties that I have as
somebody who's scared of spaceand heights flying up into outer
space?
I want to know those things formyself.
(29:59):
So I don't want just fact-basedinformation.
I mean, I do want somefact-based information in that
situation, obviously, but Idon't want just fact-based.
I want to know what the realexperience is like.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
And I think our students feel the same way when
they come to our classroom.
Like everything you just said,it doesn't matter the content,
we want to know more about it.
I think sometimes we limit byjust giving them the facts.
By opening it up, we'reallowing curiosity, we're
allowing critical thinking,we're allowing problem solving,
(30:34):
and so I think your reflectionand your applications were spot
on.
Excellent job.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
You could have said smart.
Is that what you're going tosay?
I would have been sad,brilliant, magnificent.
Thank you, thank you, all right.
Well, you heard that bell.
That means we are almost out oftime.
Do you have some homework forus to do?
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Well, definitely, my homework is with your next class
.
Why not try out the threecolumns and really focus more on
the processing and theapplication than the note-taking
?
But the note-taking is going toget them to process the
information and apply theinformation.
But don't just make it just allabout note-taking.
(31:24):
Make it more about theprocessing and the application.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
All right, I really like that and I know that you
sent me a copy of thethree-column format, a handout
that they can use, so I will putthat in the show notes so that
you can see what thethree-column note-taking format
looks like and you can practiceit in your next classes by doing
today's homework and then tellus how it goes on social media.
(31:50):
So thank you for being heretoday, don.
I think this has been great.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
I hope you enjoyed it too.
I definitely did.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
All right, well good, we hope to have you back one
day and have a great rest ofyour day.
Thank you, bye, bye.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
All right, ashley.
What did you hear there thatreally stood out to you?
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I really like the games that he suggested, like
the speed dating.
I think of note-taking assomething you sit there and do
at your desk and I like the ideaof making it an activity just
like any other activity, wherethey practice the note-taking
and they report it to otherpeople in a fun way.
So that, to me, was a reallygood tip that I'd like to try.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
The idea of using your notes.
How are you going to use yournotes, taking them off the paper
and giving them practice with?
That is so important, andthat's something that he was
talking about.
So I'm thinking about what Dondid from the view of an
(32:58):
instructional coach.
If I'm an instructional coachand I want to help teachers with
taking notes, what are somethings that I heard him do?
And the first thing he askedwas he tried to zero in on your
purpose.
He said why are you having themtake notes?
And I thought that was a greatquestion because it made you
(33:19):
reflect on something that maybeyou hadn't even thought about
deeply.
Right, you just sometimes wejust have kids take notes
because it's time to take notes.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
That what is the goal ?
You're supposed to take notes,so take notes.
That's the purpose.
It's one of those things likewhen you ask your parents why is
that the rule?
Because I said so.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Why is this important ?
What does this have to do withour goal for this class?
And so that other thing that Iheard him do was talk about
transference.
So, as an instructional coach,you often work not just with one
department.
You often have to work withEnglish teachers, math teachers
(34:03):
one department.
You often have to work withEnglish teachers, math teachers
and one of the keys of education, I think, is teaching kids
skills that they can transferfrom class to class, and he was
probing you and asking you abouthow this skill could be used in
different classes and how itcould be applied across the
curriculum.
And that's just a probingquestion and a focus that I
(34:26):
think, as a coach, it'simportant to keep in our minds
what skills are we teaching kidsthat can be applied in multiple
classes?
That are learning skills?
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, well, that's a really good point and it is
something that I'm alwaysinterested in this transference,
not just from class to class,but from grade to grade, from
the class to work, anything likethat.
So any skill that you can useacross everything you do is
really great.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
So another step coaching step he took that I
think is important is helpingyou to think about how the notes
connect to your critical focusquestion, Because he was trying
to keep you focused on thepurpose of taking notes right.
So that's the whole thing aboutwhat I said.
Why are you taking notes right?
So that's the whole thing aboutwhat I said.
Why are you taking notes?
Keeping it focused, keeping ourconversations focused on the
purpose of what it is you'retrying to accomplish and you
know he was talking to you aboutessential questions and having
(35:36):
a big essential question andthen taking notes to answer
those questions.
And I thought that wasimportant coaching move because
it connected the strategy to thecontent you're trying to help
students learn.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Right, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, and then the one last thing I wanted to
mention, which is, if you notice, he kept referring to some
brain research.
At one point he talked aboutrepetition and how repetition
helps you learn, and at anotherpoint he talks about chunking
and how you know you can onlypay attention to something for
(36:15):
so long.
The brain can only do that.
I believe and Don does too thatas coaches, we need to really
study how the brain learns, howthe brain processes information
and stores information for along time so that you can
(36:36):
retrieve it.
And what I hear in thatconversation is that Dawn has
studied not just literacy ornote-taking, but how the brain
processes information.
And my recommendation for anyinstructional coach is to find
literature and make yourself alearning expert, not just a
(36:58):
teaching expert.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
not just a teaching expert.
Does that make sense?
Yes, and I do think that thatmatters.
Knowing the way people thinkand the way they learn helps you
as a teacher, no matter whatyour subject is, and also I can
see helping any instructionalcoach.
Help a teacher.
So I think, that's a reallygreat point.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Sometimes we're content experts, like I'm an
expert in history or inliterature, but I need to be an
expert in how the brain learnsto read Right and how the brain
learns math best.
That's what I need to trulymaster as a instructional coach
and be able to share that withothers.
(37:40):
So those are my coaching pointsfrom Dawn's conversation.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
All right.
Well, I think those are reallygreat points.
I think they'll be very useful.
So thank you for joining meagain today to help us find the
coaching tips from our lesson,and have a great rest of your
day.
I'm looking forward to talkingto you next week.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Absolutely.
See you then.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Okay, bye.
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