August 28, 2023 • 34 mins
During a stormy August night in Tacoma, Washington 8 year-old Ann Marie Burr got up with her crying sister. After waking her mom up to help with her little sister Ann is sent back to bed. But by 5:15am Ann had vanished without a trace from her bed. The front door and a window were open but otherwise nothing was out of place. Hundreds of people will search for Ann and they’ll never find a trace of her. Years later, after Ted Bundy was arrested, police in Ann’s case wondered if a 14 year-old Bundy could have started his killing spree much earlier than previously thought. Join Ali and Eli as we go over this decades old missing person case.
If you know anything about the disappearance of Ann Marie Burr in August of 1961 please call the Tacoma Police at 253-798-4721
- Follow us on instagram @Cold_and_Missing to keep up with active cases and see pictures discussed in the episode
- Have a case you want us to cover? Want to tell us your thoughts about an episode? Email us at coldandmissing@gmail.com
- Wanna support our work? https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ColdandMissing
- Check out our website at www.Coldandmissing.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The views and opinions expressed in Cold and Missing are exclusively those of the hosts.
(00:13):
All parties mentioned are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Cold and Missing also contains adult themes and languages.
Listener discretion is advised.
I'm your host, Ali McLaughlin-Sulkowski.
And I'm your co-host, Eli Sulkowski.
And this is Cold and Missing, where we cover cold cases.
And missing person cases.
(00:34):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Cold and Missing.
I'm your host, Ali McLaughlin-Sulkowski.
And I'm your co-host, Eli Sulkowski.
Wow babe, a year, right?
Yeah, today is officially one year since we uploaded our first episode.
We've grown quite a bit since then, learned a lot.
(00:55):
And you've built something incredible and I get to see all the work that goes into it.
So yeah, this just, I mean, it's business as usual, you know, you're working your tail
off the moment before we just hit record.
So yeah, like it feels, it's very celebratory, but like we're humbled and we're excited,
(01:17):
like year two, let's do it.
Yeah.
Thank you to everyone who has been listening, even if you're just joining us today for the
first time.
Thank you so much for being here.
We have listeners in every state in America and lots of listeners around the world as
well, which yeah, is humbling and it's, it's an honor to be a part of your week in a small
way.
(01:37):
So thanks for being here.
Thanks for joining us.
And I think we should just get into this week's case, start the second year, just like any
other year.
Episode 53, correct?
Episode 53.
Alrighty.
Um, could you remind me this is a missing person case?
Yes, this is a missing persons case.
Alrighty.
(01:58):
Let's do it.
So just as a content warning at the top, this case does involve a young person.
Today we're going to be talking about Ann Marie Burr, and this takes place in Tacoma,
Washington in August of 1961.
But first a little bit about Ann, Ann was eight years old in the summer of 1961.
(02:22):
She was born December 14th, 1952, and she would be 70 years old today.
Ann was the oldest of four siblings and was a smart, caring and crafty young girl who
had recently discovered embroidery and loved it.
Ann and her family lived on North 14th Street in Tacoma, just blocks from the University
(02:42):
of Puget Sound.
She was looking forward to starting the third grade at her elementary school where she was
a favorite student amongst teachers.
Her father, Donald Burr, says quote, she had a strong little personality and a strong frame
on which to express her personality.
You just felt happy to be around her.
She was just a regular little girl, end quote.
(03:04):
And now a timeline of events.
On Wednesday, August 30th, 1961, Ann spent the day playing with a neighborhood friend
and had dinner over at their house.
After having such a good time, Ann calls her mom to ask her if she can spend the night.
Her mother, Beverly Burr, thought that since school started next week that Ann should
come home to start getting into a bedtime routine.
(03:26):
Ann and her siblings are put to bed around 8 p.m.
The four siblings traded off sleeping in the basement.
It was a special treat since it was part of the playroom.
Tonight was not Ann's turn for sleeping in the basement, so Ann and her youngest sister
Mary, who was three and had a cast on her arm at this time from a summer accident, went
(03:46):
upstairs while Ann's younger sister and brother went downstairs to the basement.
According to early reports, Donald and Beverly had family over that night, but by midnight
they were ready for bed.
The front door was locked and the chain was put on and the back door was locked.
All the windows were closed and Donald and Beverly turned in for bed.
Their bedroom was on the main floor.
(04:08):
Early in the morning on August 31st, Ann is woken up by her younger sister crying because
of her cast.
She brings Mary downstairs to her parents' bedroom to wake them up.
Beverly sends the girls back upstairs, telling Mary that her cast will come off soon.
At 5.15 in the morning, Mary wakes up her mother again.
She's alone this time.
(04:29):
Beverly gets up and brings her back to her bedroom.
When she checks in on Ann's room, she sees her bed empty.
The bedsheets are pulled back but there is a neatness to the bed she recalls.
Thinking Ann went to the basement to sleep with her other siblings, Beverly starts to
head there.
Before she can get to the basement, she sees that the front door is open and ajar.
The front room window was also open.
(04:51):
It had been left unlocked the night before but it had been closed due to the rain that
moved in overnight.
When Beverly looks outside, she notices that a wicker bench, normally kept in the backyard,
was under the window in the front.
Donald and Beverly search every inch of their home, looking for Ann, but when she's not
found they call police that morning.
Donald and Beverly search Ann's room for anything missing but nothing is gone.
(05:15):
It appears the little girl was barefoot and still wearing her ankle-length nightgown with
a flower pattern.
As the parents are questioned, they recalled their dog barking once in the night and hearing
neighborhood dogs bark but they couldn't recall what time that was.
Police say they don't find any sign of a forced entry despite the door and window being
open.
(05:36):
Police Chief Don Hager orders patrol cars to start going block by block looking for
the young girl.
Neighbors begin to turn out and search their own properties and basements in case Ann
was hiding somewhere.
As minutes creep by, Donald and Beverly get more and more worried.
Police searching the home have very little to go on.
There were no signs of struggle anywhere in the home, including Ann's room.
(06:00):
Inside under the open window there was a footprint found but the morning rain had blurred the
details.
Police are able to determine that it's a men's size 6 or 7.
There were a few grass clippings on the rug in the living room and the bench outside had
a few red fibers left on it.
As word around town begins to spread about the missing 8-year-old girl, tips are called
(06:22):
into police.
One caller said that he saw Ann screaming in a blue and white car with California plates
driven by a man in his 30s.
Police find the car and the man matching the description and the driver tells police that
the screams were coming from the radio.
Police release him.
Bloodhounds are brought in to try to track her scent but because of the wind and the
(06:45):
rain they were unable to pick anything up.
Police ask the FBI for help but because there is no evidence of an abduction they just observe.
Police search until 11pm that night but they find no sign of Ann.
Over the next two days a huge military operation is called into Tacoma to search for Ann.
On Saturday, September 2nd, nearly 800 military personnel composing of the Army and National
(07:10):
Guard join the police to search and the Army launches helicopters both days to help aid
the searchers below.
They go block by block looking for any clue as to what might have happened to Ann.
Police haven't ruled out any theory yet including that she got amnesia and wondered off.
Police are hesitant to say that someone entered the home through the window since the Burrs
(07:31):
had a small table under the window with delicate figurines and none of them were disturbed.
By the end of Saturday night, roughly 8-10 miles of Tacoma had been thoroughly searched.
This included vacant lots and abandoned buildings and there was no trace of Ann found.
The military is called off at the end of the day but police say it doesn't affect the
intensity of their investigation.
(07:53):
Inspector Emil Smith of the Tacoma Police says quote, will be on this 24 hours a day
for I don't know how long.
End quote.
On Sunday, September 3rd, Ann has been missing for three days now.
About 100 police and volunteers continue to search and police begin to coordinate with
the Public Works Department to have all the manholes in the area of Ann's house checked
(08:15):
along with the sewers leading all the way to the bay.
They start going underground on Monday and into Tuesday looking for any sign of Ann.
At this point police have searched by the air, ground, and underground and there was
still no trace of Ann.
Police still don't classify it as an abduction since they're unsure if perhaps Ann just
wandered off and left the door ajar.
(08:36):
With finding no trace of her in the sewer, police call in skin divers on Wednesday, September
6th, just six days after Ann went missing, to search the bay where the main outfall from
the sewer system went.
Police search commencement bay fearing that the water would hold the answer to what happened
to Ann, but police find no trace of her underwater either.
It's like Ann simply vanished according to police.
(08:58):
One week after Ann's disappearance, Donald and Beverly head to the police station and
ask that they be given a polygraph test.
Rumors in town that they were withholding information had gotten back to them and they
wanted to clear their names right away.
Police say they both pass and say that they believe that Donald and Beverly have acted
in good faith with the police and have not held anything back.
(09:20):
Not much to go on, police continue to search areas and research them, hoping they find
something that was possibly missed the first time.
After nine days, Ann's grandmother offers a thousand dollar reward from her own savings
for information leading to Ann's safe return.
She says quote, I would give more if I could only get her back, end quote.
The family believe that someone crawled through the window and abducted Ann.
(09:44):
Police believe the reward is good, but probably too small for someone to overcome the fear
of telling the police what they know.
Over the next several days, a fund is set up for the reward and people donate money
for information.
All in all, five thousand dollars will be raised by the community.
On Thursday, September 21st, Ann has been missing for 21 days, police are stumped.
(10:06):
Detective Russell Richardson says quote, I have never seen anything like it.
We have nothing to give us any direction in the search, end quote.
By the end of September, police have interviewed every home within 70 square blocks of the
Burr's residence.
Police had run down every lead called into them.
The police say they don't know any more now than they did a month ago.
(10:27):
Police have gathered 225 suspects, and I use that term loosely.
They gathered the names of all known sex offenders in the area, people that were in the area
by circumstance, and a few leads that had called in.
Police will check out all their alibis and those they can't verify, they'll ask to
take a lie detector test.
Police also plan on having anyone within a 25 block radius take a lie detector test as
(10:52):
well.
As October rolls in, Donald and Beverly ask that people continue to check their properties
again and to keep looking for Ann
Donald asks that hunters be vigilant on their tracks.
He says quote, we would like the hunter walking along a gulch or valley to take the extra
little time to investigate if he sees something strange, end quote.
(11:13):
The parents also mentioned that there was a peeping tom in the neighborhood recently.
Police are starting to call her case an abduction.
Detective Russell Richardson says quote, the physical situation and all the attended evidence
indicates an intruder did enter the house and take the girl.
Our investigation has eliminated the parents as suspects, end quote.
(11:33):
Despite police believing in the abduction theory, the case is still not classified as
an abduction so the FBI are still not involved.
Donald and Beverly are trying to be strong for their three other children.
Donald says quote, they look right into your eyes and they wonder what has happened in
our house.
They look like they have lost some security and they wonder will we, as a mother and father,
(11:56):
permit a man to come into the household and take one of them, end quote.
The family continue to pray for Ann and they'll never give up on her.
As fall continues to move into winter, there are other crimes and attempted abductions
of children that police look at but none lead back to Ann.
On December 9th, Ann has been missing for 100 days.
(12:17):
Police organize a search of University Place, Washington.
This is directly west of Tacoma.
Police tell searchers to be on the lookout for the nightgown Ann was last seen wearing,
a necklace that she wore with religious medals of Jesus and Mary on them, and a bracelet
with her address and phone number engraved as well as St. Christopher protect us engraved
(12:38):
on the back.
Amongst the searchers was Ann's father but nothing is found.
Police ask that if people are out hunting Christmas trees during the holiday season
that they stay vigilant.
In March of 1962, so Ann has been missing for seven months at this point, a caller from
Olympia Washington calls to say that he saw a little girl that looked like Ann with a
(12:59):
man and a woman.
The little girl was crying and asking for her mother.
Police search Olympia but they're unable to find the couple or Ann.
Police believe at this time that Ann is dead.
However, a few months later there is another possible sighting of Ann.
This time in Canada in Portage-La- Prairie.
(13:19):
A man at a service station saw two women and a man and a young child eating at the restaurant.
The man said the adults spoke sharply to the young girl and that she had demanded French
toast at the restaurant.
The man later saw a newspaper article with Ann's picture in it and recognized the young
girl in the service station as Ann.
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police are alerted but they're never able to find these people
(13:44):
or any sign of Ann.
In July of 1963, Ann has been missing for almost two years now.
The Burrs adopt a baby girl.
They said they're happy to have four kids in the house again.
Beverly says quote, the detectives have been wonderful.
We're in contact with them about once a week and we know they are doing everything
they can.
We still hope someone will remember something.
(14:06):
I guess we're reconciled.
It's hard to use that word.
To probably not see Ann Marie alive again.
But we can't take her out of our hearts.
End quote.
Police say they're no closer to solving it now than they were two years ago.
Two detectives are still assigned to the case and they have five thoughts on what could
have possibly happened to Ann.
(14:26):
So the first is that someone who was obsessed with Ann and wanted to take her specifically
abducted her.
The second thought is that Ann was enticed out of the house by someone that knew her.
Police say the light was left on in the living room so she would have been able to see someone
at the window.
The third thought is that this was a vengeful act against the parents but police find no
(14:48):
evidence of this.
Another thought is that this was a money gain kidnapping but there are no ransom calls or
notes ever delivered to the Burrs and the Burrs are not a wealthy family.
And the last idea that police have is that this could have been a case of mistaken identity.
There was another Burr family in Tacoma, Washington that was wealthy and they had a daughter about
(15:10):
Ann's age.
Police theorize that perhaps they were the intended targets for a ransom kidnapping.
But they don't discover any evidence to support this either.
In July of 1964, so Ann has been missing for just under three years, 10-year-old Gay Lynn
Stewart is abducted after walking to a park from her home.
(15:31):
She's taken from Tacoma, Washington and for three days a man named Ralph Everett Larkee
drove around Washington, Oregon and Idaho with her.
He cut her hair and changed her clothes.
After three days he dropped her back off in Tacoma with $15 and she was recognized when
she went into a store to buy some candy.
The FBI moved to arrest him in early September but as agents announced themselves at the
(15:56):
door they hear a gunshot inside and Larkee had shot himself.
The FBI aren't able to talk to him about Gay Lynn's abduction or about Ann's.
Police were very interested in talking to him about Ann's disappearance due to the similarities
in the case.
At the four-year mark, Beverly and Donald write a letter published in the newspaper.
(16:17):
It reads in part, quote,
It was a black night and raining hard.
We wonder if the wind was screaming with her screams.
We wonder if a group of drunken crazed boys took her or a mad sadist.
Night comes and with it the fear, the listening, the horror again and again.
Only prayer can lessen the pain as we whisper, Dear God, be with Ann.
(16:40):
Please let us and other parents like us be strong.
The child pays for the crime in hours of unbelievable terror.
Parents pay every day they live.
The criminal?
We want him to be rehabilitated and paroled.
But not less there is a job waiting and a friend.
And not unless he believes he was created for one purpose alone, to love God and to
(17:01):
serve him and this by loving his fellow man.
End quote.
In October of 1967, Ann has been missing for six years at this point, a man in prison
confesses to helping bury the body of Ann.
His story changes often, but he mainly says that a man who worked on a bean farm outside
of Salem, Oregon had killed Ann and he helped get rid of the body.
(17:23):
Police bring the man from prison out to Oregon where he says it happened.
First police search a pond on the bean farm after he said that he had tied weights to
her and sank her body.
When they don't find any evidence in the pond, the next day he says that they had actually
buried her in a shallow grave near the pond.
While police don't believe this man since his story has changed so much, they can't
(17:46):
disprove what he's saying either.
So they check every place he points out.
Eventually they determine he's lying and they just take him back to prison.
In 1971, at the 10 year anniversary of Ann's abduction, the family thanks the community
for all they've done to look for Ann and support them.
They return all the donations from the reward fund back to the original donors.
(18:09):
In April of 1975, this is about 14 years since Ann's abduction, there are a lot of young
women that had turned up missing in the Tacoma area.
A reporter asked Beverly what she would tell the mothers of other missing daughters.
She said that it's impossible to put it into words, but to try to keep the faith and hold
on to hope.
(18:30):
In 1975, Ted Bundy is arrested in Utah.
Police in Washington become extremely interested in him, in part because of the unsolved Ted
murders in Washington, but also related to Ann's disappearance.
Tacoma police major Robert Johnson had this to say about Bundy at the time of his arrest,
quote, we're extremely reluctant to discuss it out of fairness to this man.
(18:54):
We don't want to give the impression we're trying to pin every unsolved crime in the
last 20 years on the poor guy, end quote.
Of course, almost all the cases are eventually tied to Bundy.
It turns out that in 1961, the year Ann disappeared from her home, Ted Bundy lived in Tacoma,
Washington.
Bundy would have been 14 years old in 1961.
(19:16):
He didn't live in the same neighborhood as Ann.
Bundy lived about two miles away, but he did have an uncle who lived in Ann's neighborhood
that he visited often.
During that time, he had a newspaper route near the Burr neighborhood.
It has also been said that Ann took piano lessons from a neighbor of Bundy's.
There is no evidence that I could find that the two ever met, but there was certainly
(19:38):
opportunities for their paths to cross.
The detectives who worked Ann's case the longest didn't believe that Bundy was involved.
They had figured the suspect fit into one of these scenarios.
The first being Ann is alive and being held hostage by someone that she knows.
They don't believe that a stranger could have gotten Ann out of her bed without any
commotion or arousing the family dog.
(20:00):
Their second thought is that Larkee, the man who kidnapped Gay Lynn, had kidnapped and
killed Ann, but got rid of her body in one of the construction projects happening in
1961.
Police point out at the time that there was a sewer project happening in the neighborhood
with ditches 30 feet deep and the University of Puget Sound was also building and the day
(20:22):
Ann disappeared a large concrete foundation was poured.
And the third idea is that police also theorize that a young man in the neighborhood killed
Ann but not Bundy.
This young man was from a very religious family and that he had done it.
They put him on a lie detector twice and he couldn't pass according to police.
In January of 1989, this is 28 years after the night Ann disappeared, the state of Florida
(20:46):
had signed Bundy's execution papers and in a last-ditch effort to put it off again,
Bundy said that he had killed 11 women and girls in Washington, 8 known by police and
3 unknown.
Bundy's legal team hoped that they will hold off the date of execution so Bundy can
give these confession and the bodies can be recovered.
He won't give details about the three unknown unless the date is pushed back.
(21:10):
Donald and Beverly Burr had been writing to Ted Bundy to try to get information out of
him about Ann.
They believed that Bundy had kidnapped their daughter.
Donald even believes that he saw Ted the morning that Ann disappeared.
When he and a search party were on the University of Puget Sound campus looking for her, Donald
saw a young man in the bottom of a watery pit near the construction site.
(21:33):
When he asked the youth about Ann, the young boy said he didn't know anything.
Looking back, Donald says, quote, I see this young man's face before me always.
The likeness of Bundy was there, end quote.
Beverly had always thought that a young person had done it because the wicker bench wouldn't
have held someone that weighed a lot and because of the smaller size shoe print under the window.
(21:55):
Ted Bundy will eventually write back to Donald and Beverly saying that he did not kill Ann,
that in 1961 he was a normal 14-year-old boy and was not out roaming the streets late at
night.
He tells this much to the Washington State investigator Robert Keppell as well.
However, Keppell thought Bundy was lying and trying to protect his mother's feelings.
(22:16):
Bundy's mother, Louise, was adamant that Bundy did not commit any crimes under her
roof, that those all happened once he had left.
Keppell also thinks that Bundy's explanation of why he had nothing to do with Ann's
disappearance was weak.
He says, quote, he denied that he did it, but he kind of offered some qualifiers.
He told me he was too young at the time.
(22:38):
He told me serial killer start a little older than that.
My feeling is Bundy isn't telling the truth.
He gave me a weak explanation of why he wasn't the killer.
End quote.
Police also point to an interview that Bundy did with Tom Holmes in 1986.
When Holmes asked Bundy to speak hypothetically about a killer like him, Bundy theorized that
(22:59):
someone like him would hypothetically start at around 14 or 15 by killing an eight or
nine-year-old girl.
Police believe he was talking about himself and Ann.
In August of 1999, 38 years after Ann was last seen in those early morning hours, a
memorial service is held for her.
Donald Burr said, quote, life cycle is coming around and we think we may want to finish
(23:22):
this and face the reality of one of our children have left us.
End quote.
Donald and Beverly, along with the police currently handling the case, believe Bundy
is the killer and Ann was his first victim.
Bundy's mother, Louise, says, quote, I resent the fact that everybody in Tacoma thinks just
because he lived in Tacoma he did that one too, way back when he was 14.
(23:44):
I'm sure he didn't.
End quote.
In July of 2011, 50 years since Ann disappeared, an investigator working on her case wanted
to know if there was a DNA sample of Bundy that could be tested against evidence from
Ann's case that had never been analyzed.
Police don't give any details about what this evidence could be.
(24:07):
From my understanding, they had very little to go on in 1961, so we're not sure what
items the police have kept as evidence.
By luck, a vial of Bundy's blood was still on file even though it had been set to be
destroyed years ago.
Police are able to upload his DNA into CODIS and compare him against evidence from Ann's
case.
(24:28):
So, some months after these items were submitted in October of 2011, the results come back
and the lab was not able to develop a DNA profile of the suspect from the evidence in
Ann's case.
No suspects were able to be eliminated via DNA, including Ted Bundy.
And that is the last update that we have on Ann Burr's case.
(24:51):
So if you know anything about the disappearance of Ann Marie Burr in August of 1961 or her
whereabouts today, you are encouraged to call the Tacoma Police Department at 253-798-4721.
And the sources for the timeline today come from the News Tribune, who covered this story
(25:14):
extensively from 1961 to present day, the Bellingham Herald, Longview Daily News, Kitsap
Sun, The Olympian, The Spokesman Review, Tri-City Herald, The Columbian, Spokane Chronicle,
and The Bellingham Herald.
So that is the case of Ann Marie Burr.
(25:34):
There were a lot of details.
Thank you for providing all of that content and I'm sure putting some of the storyline
together for us to follow because I, in listening, didn't really walk away with a ton of questions.
Some initial thoughts though are I'm not really interested in talking about the Bundy theory
(25:57):
unless like you want to just briefly we can like breeze over it.
I just I don't think that that person needs any more like mic time.
I'm like yeah, like I get you explained it perfectly.
I understand.
Sure.
But the question I did walk away with was for you like in your research did you did
(26:19):
you have a suspect in mind?
First of all, I agree with you that I don't think the Ted Bundy needs a lot of mic time,
but it's really tempting to want to pin it on him.
And I wouldn't I definitely don't bat like I'm not like whatever I'm like oh it is 100%
(26:40):
possible.
I guess I'm just like to be a part of the narrative of just like kind of dismantling
the excitement around serial killers like and I'm you know unfortunately if someone
who was have been a part of that and I just don't want to be in this.
Yeah.
(27:01):
Yeah, it's it's totally possible but I think also kind of dismantling that I don't know
if Ted Bundy is that good at you know murdering people that on his first one at 14 years old
he could get away with it.
No evidence, no murder, nobody hears anything.
(27:23):
Nobody finds her.
It just seems wild to me that a 14 year old even a 14 year old Ted Bundy would be able
to pull off this.
It's a big crime.
Yeah.
I mean.
But also on the same token, a suspect that police really liked that I kind of saw come
up again and again was this younger person that lived in the neighborhood that knew the
(27:49):
Burrs.
He came from a religious family that was like really the only clue the police gave to his
identity that he would have committed the crime and police said that he would have known
the layout of the Burrs home as well where Bundy would not have known the layout of the
home at all.
He would have just gotten lucky.
Yeah.
That size shoe as well about the size of a like an at quote average like girl would also
(28:18):
wear that size or woman you know.
So yeah I would say that's about like a girl's seven or eight.
Yeah it was also something that I thought in reading this is that police always refer
to the suspect as a male but I'm like are they just assuming that because historically
(28:39):
that is the case.
But I personally am like well what about somebody like a woman wanting to do it.
Yeah and especially of the time again like definitely more girls play with girls boys
plays play with boys like your like girlfriends know your bedroom know your whole house.
(29:02):
You guys are running and running around you know like think about like sleepovers and
stuff like your little friends know the layout so do babysitters.
So yeah I was like this could be a like an adult woman who happens to be maybe on the
more petite side you know.
Yeah police did seem for sure that the suspect whoever they are whether they were like a
(29:27):
smaller adult or maybe a teen that they had to have been on the shorter side to need the
wicker bench to get up and over the front window.
Somebody who might have been a little bit taller could have just lifted themselves up
and over.
Yeah so yeah those are like my reactions and questions for the most part like who do you
(29:47):
did do you have a suspect getting back to it.
Yeah the day that Ann went missing a caller said that he saw Ann in a car screaming.
Police find the car and the guy doesn't deny screaming he says the screaming was coming
from the radio and police let him go.
I think that there's something in all of that personally it was just the caller said
(30:13):
he saw Ann in a car he saw her and then this man is later pulled over he has California
plates there in Washington he has a blue and white car so there are some distinctive features
and he said the screaming comes from the radio so he never denies that there was screaming
happening.
Why wasn't that man looked at a second time that's what I can't understand or was he
(30:37):
and I missed it.
Not that I could find or that I could ever see talked about again it seems like police
track him down they talk to him right there they let him go.
But you know I hope that there is a resolution for Ann's siblings they're still with us
her parents have passed on but her siblings are still alive and hoping for answers.
(31:02):
My heart really goes out to them.
The imagery of the story you know just listening to it I was like terrified.
It's very scary to and my mind lends itself to like recreate imagery that like scares
me but like it scared me to hear that it scared me to hear it.
(31:26):
It's a scary story like you know in the middle of the night Ann is up with her younger sister
and then just a few hours later she's gone and the doors open and the windows open that's
a nightmare.
It is a yes it is a nightmare.
Yeah it's a nightmare if you are someone who you know is interested and invested in the
true crime world it's a lot of our worst fears you know for sure is mine and knowing how
(31:54):
easily life can be turned upside down.
Ted Bunny is a big name the fact that like I didn't really know this you know speaks
volumes about the necessity for not just podcasts but like hubs of like people who like care
about talk just like talking about stuff like this because I'm like how did I not know.
(32:19):
I'm someone who like it should have come across my radar you know and maybe it did and I wasn't
listening but I am I'm listening now.
I'll be honest I you know I've read The Stranger Beside Me I've watched documentaries.
Oh yeah of course I mean I think anyone who's listening is probably like yeah me too me
too me too it's an echo chamber in here in regards to that.
(32:43):
Totally but I didn't know about this potential first victim when he was 14 years old and
how deeply investigators still on the case today kind of believe this theory.
So yeah the cops have a couple theories and Ted Bundy is still on the list.
(33:07):
He's still on the list they haven't been able to eliminate him they tried with his DNA but
unfortunately they weren't able to develop a profile of the suspect in Ann's case so
he couldn't be eliminated.
Again if you know anything about the disappearance of Ann Marie Burr in August of 1961 or her
(33:29):
whereabouts today please call the Tacoma Police Department at 253-798-4721.
And while we've still got your attention hopefully please while you're in your podcast app rate
like subscribe Apple podcasts leave us a written review we love to see those.
(33:54):
And if you're already following us on Instagram you've seen our updated logo hopefully you're
seeing it now in your podcast player as well that means I did everything right to get it
uploaded but if not you should be following us on Instagram we'll have pictures of Ann
Marie or you can check out our website coldandmissing.com you can review us there you can leave a donation
(34:15):
there you can send us a voicemail there so anything you want to know even if you want
to know a little bit more about Eli and I it's all on our website www.coldandmissing.com
and just thank you again for being here as we enter our second year of cold and missing
I can't wait to see where this goes and I'm glad you're here and a part of it and with
(34:39):
that have a good week and stay safe y'all.
Thanks for being here and stay safe y'all.
The views and opinions expressed in Cold and Missing are exclusively those of the hosts.
(00:13):
All parties mentioned are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Cold and Missing also contains adult themes and languages.
Listener discretion is advised.
I'm your host, Ali McLaughlin-Sulkowski.
And I'm your co-host, Eli Sulkowski.
And this is Cold and Missing, where we cover cold cases.
And missing person cases.
(00:34):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Cold and Missing.
I'm your host, Ali McLaughlin-Sulkowski.
And I'm your co-host, Eli Sulkowski.
Wow babe, a year, right?
Yeah, today is officially one year since we uploaded our first episode.
We've grown quite a bit since then, learned a lot.
(00:55):
And you've built something incredible and I get to see all the work that goes into it.
So yeah, this just, I mean, it's business as usual, you know, you're working your tail
off the moment before we just hit record.
So yeah, like it feels, it's very celebratory, but like we're humbled and we're excited,
(01:17):
like year two, let's do it.
Yeah.
Thank you to everyone who has been listening, even if you're just joining us today for the
first time.
Thank you so much for being here.
We have listeners in every state in America and lots of listeners around the world as
well, which yeah, is humbling and it's, it's an honor to be a part of your week in a small
way.
(01:37):
So thanks for being here.
Thanks for joining us.
And I think we should just get into this week's case, start the second year, just like any
other year.
Episode 53, correct?
Episode 53.
Alrighty.
Um, could you remind me this is a missing person case?
Yes, this is a missing persons case.
Alrighty.
(01:58):
Let's do it.
So just as a content warning at the top, this case does involve a young person.
Today we're going to be talking about Ann Marie Burr, and this takes place in Tacoma,
Washington in August of 1961.
But first a little bit about Ann, Ann was eight years old in the summer of 1961.
(02:22):
She was born December 14th, 1952, and she would be 70 years old today.
Ann was the oldest of four siblings and was a smart, caring and crafty young girl who
had recently discovered embroidery and loved it.
Ann and her family lived on North 14th Street in Tacoma, just blocks from the University
(02:42):
of Puget Sound.
She was looking forward to starting the third grade at her elementary school where she was
a favorite student amongst teachers.
Her father, Donald Burr, says quote, she had a strong little personality and a strong frame
on which to express her personality.
You just felt happy to be around her.
She was just a regular little girl, end quote.
(03:04):
And now a timeline of events.
On Wednesday, August 30th, 1961, Ann spent the day playing with a neighborhood friend
and had dinner over at their house.
After having such a good time, Ann calls her mom to ask her if she can spend the night.
Her mother, Beverly Burr, thought that since school started next week that Ann should
come home to start getting into a bedtime routine.
(03:26):
Ann and her siblings are put to bed around 8 p.m.
The four siblings traded off sleeping in the basement.
It was a special treat since it was part of the playroom.
Tonight was not Ann's turn for sleeping in the basement, so Ann and her youngest sister
Mary, who was three and had a cast on her arm at this time from a summer accident, went
(03:46):
upstairs while Ann's younger sister and brother went downstairs to the basement.
According to early reports, Donald and Beverly had family over that night, but by midnight
they were ready for bed.
The front door was locked and the chain was put on and the back door was locked.
All the windows were closed and Donald and Beverly turned in for bed.
Their bedroom was on the main floor.
(04:08):
Early in the morning on August 31st, Ann is woken up by her younger sister crying because
of her cast.
She brings Mary downstairs to her parents' bedroom to wake them up.
Beverly sends the girls back upstairs, telling Mary that her cast will come off soon.
At 5.15 in the morning, Mary wakes up her mother again.
She's alone this time.
(04:29):
Beverly gets up and brings her back to her bedroom.
When she checks in on Ann's room, she sees her bed empty.
The bedsheets are pulled back but there is a neatness to the bed she recalls.
Thinking Ann went to the basement to sleep with her other siblings, Beverly starts to
head there.
Before she can get to the basement, she sees that the front door is open and ajar.
The front room window was also open.
(04:51):
It had been left unlocked the night before but it had been closed due to the rain that
moved in overnight.
When Beverly looks outside, she notices that a wicker bench, normally kept in the backyard,
was under the window in the front.
Donald and Beverly search every inch of their home, looking for Ann, but when she's not
found they call police that morning.
Donald and Beverly search Ann's room for anything missing but nothing is gone.
(05:15):
It appears the little girl was barefoot and still wearing her ankle-length nightgown with
a flower pattern.
As the parents are questioned, they recalled their dog barking once in the night and hearing
neighborhood dogs bark but they couldn't recall what time that was.
Police say they don't find any sign of a forced entry despite the door and window being
open.
(05:36):
Police Chief Don Hager orders patrol cars to start going block by block looking for
the young girl.
Neighbors begin to turn out and search their own properties and basements in case Ann
was hiding somewhere.
As minutes creep by, Donald and Beverly get more and more worried.
Police searching the home have very little to go on.
There were no signs of struggle anywhere in the home, including Ann's room.
(06:00):
Inside under the open window there was a footprint found but the morning rain had blurred the
details.
Police are able to determine that it's a men's size 6 or 7.
There were a few grass clippings on the rug in the living room and the bench outside had
a few red fibers left on it.
As word around town begins to spread about the missing 8-year-old girl, tips are called
(06:22):
into police.
One caller said that he saw Ann screaming in a blue and white car with California plates
driven by a man in his 30s.
Police find the car and the man matching the description and the driver tells police that
the screams were coming from the radio.
Police release him.
Bloodhounds are brought in to try to track her scent but because of the wind and the
(06:45):
rain they were unable to pick anything up.
Police ask the FBI for help but because there is no evidence of an abduction they just observe.
Police search until 11pm that night but they find no sign of Ann.
Over the next two days a huge military operation is called into Tacoma to search for Ann.
On Saturday, September 2nd, nearly 800 military personnel composing of the Army and National
(07:10):
Guard join the police to search and the Army launches helicopters both days to help aid
the searchers below.
They go block by block looking for any clue as to what might have happened to Ann.
Police haven't ruled out any theory yet including that she got amnesia and wondered off.
Police are hesitant to say that someone entered the home through the window since the Burrs
(07:31):
had a small table under the window with delicate figurines and none of them were disturbed.
By the end of Saturday night, roughly 8-10 miles of Tacoma had been thoroughly searched.
This included vacant lots and abandoned buildings and there was no trace of Ann found.
The military is called off at the end of the day but police say it doesn't affect the
intensity of their investigation.
(07:53):
Inspector Emil Smith of the Tacoma Police says quote, will be on this 24 hours a day
for I don't know how long.
End quote.
On Sunday, September 3rd, Ann has been missing for three days now.
About 100 police and volunteers continue to search and police begin to coordinate with
the Public Works Department to have all the manholes in the area of Ann's house checked
(08:15):
along with the sewers leading all the way to the bay.
They start going underground on Monday and into Tuesday looking for any sign of Ann.
At this point police have searched by the air, ground, and underground and there was
still no trace of Ann.
Police still don't classify it as an abduction since they're unsure if perhaps Ann just
wandered off and left the door ajar.
(08:36):
With finding no trace of her in the sewer, police call in skin divers on Wednesday, September
6th, just six days after Ann went missing, to search the bay where the main outfall from
the sewer system went.
Police search commencement bay fearing that the water would hold the answer to what happened
to Ann, but police find no trace of her underwater either.
It's like Ann simply vanished according to police.
(08:58):
One week after Ann's disappearance, Donald and Beverly head to the police station and
ask that they be given a polygraph test.
Rumors in town that they were withholding information had gotten back to them and they
wanted to clear their names right away.
Police say they both pass and say that they believe that Donald and Beverly have acted
in good faith with the police and have not held anything back.
(09:20):
Not much to go on, police continue to search areas and research them, hoping they find
something that was possibly missed the first time.
After nine days, Ann's grandmother offers a thousand dollar reward from her own savings
for information leading to Ann's safe return.
She says quote, I would give more if I could only get her back, end quote.
The family believe that someone crawled through the window and abducted Ann.
(09:44):
Police believe the reward is good, but probably too small for someone to overcome the fear
of telling the police what they know.
Over the next several days, a fund is set up for the reward and people donate money
for information.
All in all, five thousand dollars will be raised by the community.
On Thursday, September 21st, Ann has been missing for 21 days, police are stumped.
(10:06):
Detective Russell Richardson says quote, I have never seen anything like it.
We have nothing to give us any direction in the search, end quote.
By the end of September, police have interviewed every home within 70 square blocks of the
Burr's residence.
Police had run down every lead called into them.
The police say they don't know any more now than they did a month ago.
(10:27):
Police have gathered 225 suspects, and I use that term loosely.
They gathered the names of all known sex offenders in the area, people that were in the area
by circumstance, and a few leads that had called in.
Police will check out all their alibis and those they can't verify, they'll ask to
take a lie detector test.
Police also plan on having anyone within a 25 block radius take a lie detector test as
(10:52):
well.
As October rolls in, Donald and Beverly ask that people continue to check their properties
again and to keep looking for Ann
Donald asks that hunters be vigilant on their tracks.
He says quote, we would like the hunter walking along a gulch or valley to take the extra
little time to investigate if he sees something strange, end quote.
(11:13):
The parents also mentioned that there was a peeping tom in the neighborhood recently.
Police are starting to call her case an abduction.
Detective Russell Richardson says quote, the physical situation and all the attended evidence
indicates an intruder did enter the house and take the girl.
Our investigation has eliminated the parents as suspects, end quote.
(11:33):
Despite police believing in the abduction theory, the case is still not classified as
an abduction so the FBI are still not involved.
Donald and Beverly are trying to be strong for their three other children.
Donald says quote, they look right into your eyes and they wonder what has happened in
our house.
They look like they have lost some security and they wonder will we, as a mother and father,
(11:56):
permit a man to come into the household and take one of them, end quote.
The family continue to pray for Ann and they'll never give up on her.
As fall continues to move into winter, there are other crimes and attempted abductions
of children that police look at but none lead back to Ann.
On December 9th, Ann has been missing for 100 days.
(12:17):
Police organize a search of University Place, Washington.
This is directly west of Tacoma.
Police tell searchers to be on the lookout for the nightgown Ann was last seen wearing,
a necklace that she wore with religious medals of Jesus and Mary on them, and a bracelet
with her address and phone number engraved as well as St. Christopher protect us engraved
(12:38):
on the back.
Amongst the searchers was Ann's father but nothing is found.
Police ask that if people are out hunting Christmas trees during the holiday season
that they stay vigilant.
In March of 1962, so Ann has been missing for seven months at this point, a caller from
Olympia Washington calls to say that he saw a little girl that looked like Ann with a
(12:59):
man and a woman.
The little girl was crying and asking for her mother.
Police search Olympia but they're unable to find the couple or Ann.
Police believe at this time that Ann is dead.
However, a few months later there is another possible sighting of Ann.
This time in Canada in Portage-La- Prairie.
(13:19):
A man at a service station saw two women and a man and a young child eating at the restaurant.
The man said the adults spoke sharply to the young girl and that she had demanded French
toast at the restaurant.
The man later saw a newspaper article with Ann's picture in it and recognized the young
girl in the service station as Ann.
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police are alerted but they're never able to find these people
(13:44):
or any sign of Ann.
In July of 1963, Ann has been missing for almost two years now.
The Burrs adopt a baby girl.
They said they're happy to have four kids in the house again.
Beverly says quote, the detectives have been wonderful.
We're in contact with them about once a week and we know they are doing everything
they can.
We still hope someone will remember something.
(14:06):
I guess we're reconciled.
It's hard to use that word.
To probably not see Ann Marie alive again.
But we can't take her out of our hearts.
End quote.
Police say they're no closer to solving it now than they were two years ago.
Two detectives are still assigned to the case and they have five thoughts on what could
have possibly happened to Ann.
(14:26):
So the first is that someone who was obsessed with Ann and wanted to take her specifically
abducted her.
The second thought is that Ann was enticed out of the house by someone that knew her.
Police say the light was left on in the living room so she would have been able to see someone
at the window.
The third thought is that this was a vengeful act against the parents but police find no
(14:48):
evidence of this.
Another thought is that this was a money gain kidnapping but there are no ransom calls or
notes ever delivered to the Burrs and the Burrs are not a wealthy family.
And the last idea that police have is that this could have been a case of mistaken identity.
There was another Burr family in Tacoma, Washington that was wealthy and they had a daughter about
(15:10):
Ann's age.
Police theorize that perhaps they were the intended targets for a ransom kidnapping.
But they don't discover any evidence to support this either.
In July of 1964, so Ann has been missing for just under three years, 10-year-old Gay Lynn
Stewart is abducted after walking to a park from her home.
(15:31):
She's taken from Tacoma, Washington and for three days a man named Ralph Everett Larkee
drove around Washington, Oregon and Idaho with her.
He cut her hair and changed her clothes.
After three days he dropped her back off in Tacoma with $15 and she was recognized when
she went into a store to buy some candy.
The FBI moved to arrest him in early September but as agents announced themselves at the
(15:56):
door they hear a gunshot inside and Larkee had shot himself.
The FBI aren't able to talk to him about Gay Lynn's abduction or about Ann's.
Police were very interested in talking to him about Ann's disappearance due to the similarities
in the case.
At the four-year mark, Beverly and Donald write a letter published in the newspaper.
(16:17):
It reads in part, quote,
It was a black night and raining hard.
We wonder if the wind was screaming with her screams.
We wonder if a group of drunken crazed boys took her or a mad sadist.
Night comes and with it the fear, the listening, the horror again and again.
Only prayer can lessen the pain as we whisper, Dear God, be with Ann.
(16:40):
Please let us and other parents like us be strong.
The child pays for the crime in hours of unbelievable terror.
Parents pay every day they live.
The criminal?
We want him to be rehabilitated and paroled.
But not less there is a job waiting and a friend.
And not unless he believes he was created for one purpose alone, to love God and to
(17:01):
serve him and this by loving his fellow man.
End quote.
In October of 1967, Ann has been missing for six years at this point, a man in prison
confesses to helping bury the body of Ann.
His story changes often, but he mainly says that a man who worked on a bean farm outside
of Salem, Oregon had killed Ann and he helped get rid of the body.
(17:23):
Police bring the man from prison out to Oregon where he says it happened.
First police search a pond on the bean farm after he said that he had tied weights to
her and sank her body.
When they don't find any evidence in the pond, the next day he says that they had actually
buried her in a shallow grave near the pond.
While police don't believe this man since his story has changed so much, they can't
(17:46):
disprove what he's saying either.
So they check every place he points out.
Eventually they determine he's lying and they just take him back to prison.
In 1971, at the 10 year anniversary of Ann's abduction, the family thanks the community
for all they've done to look for Ann and support them.
They return all the donations from the reward fund back to the original donors.
(18:09):
In April of 1975, this is about 14 years since Ann's abduction, there are a lot of young
women that had turned up missing in the Tacoma area.
A reporter asked Beverly what she would tell the mothers of other missing daughters.
She said that it's impossible to put it into words, but to try to keep the faith and hold
on to hope.
(18:30):
In 1975, Ted Bundy is arrested in Utah.
Police in Washington become extremely interested in him, in part because of the unsolved Ted
murders in Washington, but also related to Ann's disappearance.
Tacoma police major Robert Johnson had this to say about Bundy at the time of his arrest,
quote, we're extremely reluctant to discuss it out of fairness to this man.
(18:54):
We don't want to give the impression we're trying to pin every unsolved crime in the
last 20 years on the poor guy, end quote.
Of course, almost all the cases are eventually tied to Bundy.
It turns out that in 1961, the year Ann disappeared from her home, Ted Bundy lived in Tacoma,
Washington.
Bundy would have been 14 years old in 1961.
(19:16):
He didn't live in the same neighborhood as Ann.
Bundy lived about two miles away, but he did have an uncle who lived in Ann's neighborhood
that he visited often.
During that time, he had a newspaper route near the Burr neighborhood.
It has also been said that Ann took piano lessons from a neighbor of Bundy's.
There is no evidence that I could find that the two ever met, but there was certainly
(19:38):
opportunities for their paths to cross.
The detectives who worked Ann's case the longest didn't believe that Bundy was involved.
They had figured the suspect fit into one of these scenarios.
The first being Ann is alive and being held hostage by someone that she knows.
They don't believe that a stranger could have gotten Ann out of her bed without any
commotion or arousing the family dog.
(20:00):
Their second thought is that Larkee, the man who kidnapped Gay Lynn, had kidnapped and
killed Ann, but got rid of her body in one of the construction projects happening in
1961.
Police point out at the time that there was a sewer project happening in the neighborhood
with ditches 30 feet deep and the University of Puget Sound was also building and the day
(20:22):
Ann disappeared a large concrete foundation was poured.
And the third idea is that police also theorize that a young man in the neighborhood killed
Ann but not Bundy.
This young man was from a very religious family and that he had done it.
They put him on a lie detector twice and he couldn't pass according to police.
In January of 1989, this is 28 years after the night Ann disappeared, the state of Florida
(20:46):
had signed Bundy's execution papers and in a last-ditch effort to put it off again,
Bundy said that he had killed 11 women and girls in Washington, 8 known by police and
3 unknown.
Bundy's legal team hoped that they will hold off the date of execution so Bundy can
give these confession and the bodies can be recovered.
He won't give details about the three unknown unless the date is pushed back.
(21:10):
Donald and Beverly Burr had been writing to Ted Bundy to try to get information out of
him about Ann.
They believed that Bundy had kidnapped their daughter.
Donald even believes that he saw Ted the morning that Ann disappeared.
When he and a search party were on the University of Puget Sound campus looking for her, Donald
saw a young man in the bottom of a watery pit near the construction site.
(21:33):
When he asked the youth about Ann, the young boy said he didn't know anything.
Looking back, Donald says, quote, I see this young man's face before me always.
The likeness of Bundy was there, end quote.
Beverly had always thought that a young person had done it because the wicker bench wouldn't
have held someone that weighed a lot and because of the smaller size shoe print under the window.
(21:55):
Ted Bundy will eventually write back to Donald and Beverly saying that he did not kill Ann,
that in 1961 he was a normal 14-year-old boy and was not out roaming the streets late at
night.
He tells this much to the Washington State investigator Robert Keppell as well.
However, Keppell thought Bundy was lying and trying to protect his mother's feelings.
(22:16):
Bundy's mother, Louise, was adamant that Bundy did not commit any crimes under her
roof, that those all happened once he had left.
Keppell also thinks that Bundy's explanation of why he had nothing to do with Ann's
disappearance was weak.
He says, quote, he denied that he did it, but he kind of offered some qualifiers.
He told me he was too young at the time.
(22:38):
He told me serial killer start a little older than that.
My feeling is Bundy isn't telling the truth.
He gave me a weak explanation of why he wasn't the killer.
End quote.
Police also point to an interview that Bundy did with Tom Holmes in 1986.
When Holmes asked Bundy to speak hypothetically about a killer like him, Bundy theorized that
(22:59):
someone like him would hypothetically start at around 14 or 15 by killing an eight or
nine-year-old girl.
Police believe he was talking about himself and Ann.
In August of 1999, 38 years after Ann was last seen in those early morning hours, a
memorial service is held for her.
Donald Burr said, quote, life cycle is coming around and we think we may want to finish
(23:22):
this and face the reality of one of our children have left us.
End quote.
Donald and Beverly, along with the police currently handling the case, believe Bundy
is the killer and Ann was his first victim.
Bundy's mother, Louise, says, quote, I resent the fact that everybody in Tacoma thinks just
because he lived in Tacoma he did that one too, way back when he was 14.
(23:44):
I'm sure he didn't.
End quote.
In July of 2011, 50 years since Ann disappeared, an investigator working on her case wanted
to know if there was a DNA sample of Bundy that could be tested against evidence from
Ann's case that had never been analyzed.
Police don't give any details about what this evidence could be.
(24:07):
From my understanding, they had very little to go on in 1961, so we're not sure what
items the police have kept as evidence.
By luck, a vial of Bundy's blood was still on file even though it had been set to be
destroyed years ago.
Police are able to upload his DNA into CODIS and compare him against evidence from Ann's
case.
(24:28):
So, some months after these items were submitted in October of 2011, the results come back
and the lab was not able to develop a DNA profile of the suspect from the evidence in
Ann's case.
No suspects were able to be eliminated via DNA, including Ted Bundy.
And that is the last update that we have on Ann Burr's case.
(24:51):
So if you know anything about the disappearance of Ann Marie Burr in August of 1961 or her
whereabouts today, you are encouraged to call the Tacoma Police Department at 253-798-4721.
And the sources for the timeline today come from the News Tribune, who covered this story
(25:14):
extensively from 1961 to present day, the Bellingham Herald, Longview Daily News, Kitsap
Sun, The Olympian, The Spokesman Review, Tri-City Herald, The Columbian, Spokane Chronicle,
and The Bellingham Herald.
So that is the case of Ann Marie Burr.
(25:34):
There were a lot of details.
Thank you for providing all of that content and I'm sure putting some of the storyline
together for us to follow because I, in listening, didn't really walk away with a ton of questions.
Some initial thoughts though are I'm not really interested in talking about the Bundy theory
(25:57):
unless like you want to just briefly we can like breeze over it.
I just I don't think that that person needs any more like mic time.
I'm like yeah, like I get you explained it perfectly.
I understand.
Sure.
But the question I did walk away with was for you like in your research did you did
(26:19):
you have a suspect in mind?
First of all, I agree with you that I don't think the Ted Bundy needs a lot of mic time,
but it's really tempting to want to pin it on him.
And I wouldn't I definitely don't bat like I'm not like whatever I'm like oh it is 100%
(26:40):
possible.
I guess I'm just like to be a part of the narrative of just like kind of dismantling
the excitement around serial killers like and I'm you know unfortunately if someone
who was have been a part of that and I just don't want to be in this.
Yeah.
(27:01):
Yeah, it's it's totally possible but I think also kind of dismantling that I don't know
if Ted Bundy is that good at you know murdering people that on his first one at 14 years old
he could get away with it.
No evidence, no murder, nobody hears anything.
(27:23):
Nobody finds her.
It just seems wild to me that a 14 year old even a 14 year old Ted Bundy would be able
to pull off this.
It's a big crime.
Yeah.
I mean.
But also on the same token, a suspect that police really liked that I kind of saw come
up again and again was this younger person that lived in the neighborhood that knew the
(27:49):
Burrs.
He came from a religious family that was like really the only clue the police gave to his
identity that he would have committed the crime and police said that he would have known
the layout of the Burrs home as well where Bundy would not have known the layout of the
home at all.
He would have just gotten lucky.
Yeah.
That size shoe as well about the size of a like an at quote average like girl would also
(28:18):
wear that size or woman you know.
So yeah I would say that's about like a girl's seven or eight.
Yeah it was also something that I thought in reading this is that police always refer
to the suspect as a male but I'm like are they just assuming that because historically
(28:39):
that is the case.
But I personally am like well what about somebody like a woman wanting to do it.
Yeah and especially of the time again like definitely more girls play with girls boys
plays play with boys like your like girlfriends know your bedroom know your whole house.
(29:02):
You guys are running and running around you know like think about like sleepovers and
stuff like your little friends know the layout so do babysitters.
So yeah I was like this could be a like an adult woman who happens to be maybe on the
more petite side you know.
Yeah police did seem for sure that the suspect whoever they are whether they were like a
(29:27):
smaller adult or maybe a teen that they had to have been on the shorter side to need the
wicker bench to get up and over the front window.
Somebody who might have been a little bit taller could have just lifted themselves up
and over.
Yeah so yeah those are like my reactions and questions for the most part like who do you
(29:47):
did do you have a suspect getting back to it.
Yeah the day that Ann went missing a caller said that he saw Ann in a car screaming.
Police find the car and the guy doesn't deny screaming he says the screaming was coming
from the radio and police let him go.
I think that there's something in all of that personally it was just the caller said
(30:13):
he saw Ann in a car he saw her and then this man is later pulled over he has California
plates there in Washington he has a blue and white car so there are some distinctive features
and he said the screaming comes from the radio so he never denies that there was screaming
happening.
Why wasn't that man looked at a second time that's what I can't understand or was he
(30:37):
and I missed it.
Not that I could find or that I could ever see talked about again it seems like police
track him down they talk to him right there they let him go.
But you know I hope that there is a resolution for Ann's siblings they're still with us
her parents have passed on but her siblings are still alive and hoping for answers.
(31:02):
My heart really goes out to them.
The imagery of the story you know just listening to it I was like terrified.
It's very scary to and my mind lends itself to like recreate imagery that like scares
me but like it scared me to hear that it scared me to hear it.
(31:26):
It's a scary story like you know in the middle of the night Ann is up with her younger sister
and then just a few hours later she's gone and the doors open and the windows open that's
a nightmare.
It is a yes it is a nightmare.
Yeah it's a nightmare if you are someone who you know is interested and invested in the
true crime world it's a lot of our worst fears you know for sure is mine and knowing how
(31:54):
easily life can be turned upside down.
Ted Bunny is a big name the fact that like I didn't really know this you know speaks
volumes about the necessity for not just podcasts but like hubs of like people who like care
about talk just like talking about stuff like this because I'm like how did I not know.
(32:19):
I'm someone who like it should have come across my radar you know and maybe it did and I wasn't
listening but I am I'm listening now.
I'll be honest I you know I've read The Stranger Beside Me I've watched documentaries.
Oh yeah of course I mean I think anyone who's listening is probably like yeah me too me
too me too it's an echo chamber in here in regards to that.
(32:43):
Totally but I didn't know about this potential first victim when he was 14 years old and
how deeply investigators still on the case today kind of believe this theory.
So yeah the cops have a couple theories and Ted Bundy is still on the list.
(33:07):
He's still on the list they haven't been able to eliminate him they tried with his DNA but
unfortunately they weren't able to develop a profile of the suspect in Ann's case so
he couldn't be eliminated.
Again if you know anything about the disappearance of Ann Marie Burr in August of 1961 or her
(33:29):
whereabouts today please call the Tacoma Police Department at 253-798-4721.
And while we've still got your attention hopefully please while you're in your podcast app rate
like subscribe Apple podcasts leave us a written review we love to see those.
(33:54):
And if you're already following us on Instagram you've seen our updated logo hopefully you're
seeing it now in your podcast player as well that means I did everything right to get it
uploaded but if not you should be following us on Instagram we'll have pictures of Ann
Marie or you can check out our website coldandmissing.com you can review us there you can leave a donation
(34:15):
there you can send us a voicemail there so anything you want to know even if you want
to know a little bit more about Eli and I it's all on our website www.coldandmissing.com
and just thank you again for being here as we enter our second year of cold and missing
I can't wait to see where this goes and I'm glad you're here and a part of it and with
(34:39):
that have a good week and stay safe y'all.
Thanks for being here and stay safe y'all.
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.