Episode Transcript
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Sonya (00:01):
Welcome to the Dear
Menopause podcast.
I'm Sonya Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations,
(00:24):
needs to hear them.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
Hey everybody, and welcome tothis week's episode of Dear
Menopause.
Now today I am chatting to agorgeous, gorgeous soul and her
name is Leanne Mulheron.
Now Leanne has a Master's ofClinical Psychology, but today
she practices mostly as amenopause and PMDD specialist
(00:47):
therapist.
Leanne, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
It's my absolute pleasure.
Now Leanne and I were having alittle chat before we hit record
, which was kind of funnybecause I mentioned how, as a
host, one of the things I'velearned to do is actually to
shut up a little bit and listenmore, and Leanne said actually,
as a psychologist, that's whatmy job is.
(01:08):
So I'm a little bit nervousabout being the one holding up
the conversation here, so Ithought that was a funny way for
us to start the podcast today.
Leanne, I gave a really briefintro.
Why don't you fill in the gapsand tell us a little bit about
who you are and how you came topractice in the menopause and
PMDD space?
Leanne (01:27):
Thanks, sonya.
So yeah, my name's LeanneMulheron.
I have my own private practicecalled Affinity Clinical
Psychology, and I practice nowas a woman psychologist, so I
only see women, and havespecialised in PMDD, which is
premenstrual dysphoric disorder,and also working with women
throughout the perimenopausetransition.
So for me, I think my careertrajectory was very different to
(01:48):
probably a lot of otherpeople's, in that I sort of
started my degree and thenthought, well, this is not for
me, I need to take a break, Ineed to get some more life
experience before I go forwardwith this.
So I took a gap year to traveland it turned into a gap 10
years.
Wow, I forgot.
(02:08):
I forgot to come back.
So I was lucky enough to workon super yachts and work with
some really amazing people,worked on Richard Branson's
yacht with him and his familyfor a really long time.
Sonya (02:14):
Okay, I've just decided
we're having a podcast about a
whole different topic today.
Leanne (02:18):
Yeah, nice, it was
really fun, and I think it's
relevant to what we're talkingabout today, because one of the
things we got to experience waswhen he was starting an
organisation called the Elders,which was this organisation that
really believes in the potencyof older generations holding the
knowledge and holding the power, you know?
(02:38):
Yeah, so in tribal groups wealways went to the Elders for
advice and wisdom.
So he formulated this group andthey go into war zones and
conflicts and all differentsorts of areas to try and
provide that guidance about howto problem solve.
That's amazing.
Sonya (02:53):
How have I not heard
about this.
Leanne (02:54):
Oh, it was phenomenal.
Like we had, you know, nelsonMandela's involved, archbishop
Desmond Tutu was involved andthese people were all at
Richards Island and we got tochat to all of them and see it
sort of beginning.
Sonya (03:05):
so, oh my gosh I can now
see how your gap year turned
into a gap 10, exactly.
Leanne (03:11):
It's hard to come back
to reality after that.
But, um, yeah, I think that'skind of what we're doing in this
space, in trying to create somegroundswell and hopefully make
it a place where our generationis the last generation for
menopause to be a surprise, youknow, to really educate people,
help people, help women now, butalso educate women that are
coming up and girls that arecoming up, so that it's not so
(03:31):
much of a surprise and thesymptoms don't kind of rock
their world.
Yeah, so after that, came backto Australia, went back to my
degree, had a couple of kids,started practicing and I saw
women and men and children allacross the lifespan, worked with
lots of adolescents and thenclassic sort of textbook story
perimenopause happened to me andI, you know, had all the things
(03:54):
.
I had the hot flashes, I hadthe difficulty concentrating, I
had the irritability and themood swings, and so at that
stage I really just pivoted andjust tried to learn all I could.
I did every course I could find.
I reached out to the UK.
As you know, sonia, they'resort of much more advanced than
we are in terms of knowledge andadvocacy.
I did Louise Newsome'sConfidence in Prescribing course
(04:15):
, even though I'm not aprescriber.
I just inhaled everything Icould, went to all the
conferences, all the congresses,read everything I could,
journal entries and justcompletely pivoted my career.
And because there's so manygaps there, there's just no
psychological support for womenand I classic again textbook.
I thought if this is happeningto me, it's happening to a lot
of other women as well.
Sonya (04:34):
Yeah, absolutely, and I'm
so glad that you had that pivot
Now.
How long ago then, was thatactual pivot that you kind of
decided to go out into this?
Leanne (04:43):
area About three years
ago.
Okay, I mean, obviously, as weknow, the symptoms are probably
starting a lot before that, butI put it down to work and kids
and just general life, but thatwas the real.
You know, I've had early onsetdementia, you know, and it's
really scary, it's really.
It's just what's happening.
The confusion about what isgoing on is probably one of the
(05:04):
scariest parts.
Sonya (05:06):
So, yeah, yeah, it
absolutely is.
That was also my experience atone point.
And then it's that lack ofconfidence that the clinicians
give you when they don't seem toknow, or they also think that
it could be something like that,and it really creates quite a
spiral.
So one of the things that I washoping to ask you was what are
the most common psychologicaleffects of menopause that women
(05:30):
come to you for help for?
Leanne (05:32):
I'd say often women that
come to see me, they don't come
to see me and say I'mstruggling with perimenopause.
It's something we get totogether, we work our way there
and we figure it out, but it'soften not the first thing that
they say when they sit down infront of me.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, it's often anxiety.
They might be waking up at 3amand thoughts are spiraling.
It's panic attacks, you knowfirst time onset or a recurrence
(05:56):
of anxiety that they may haveexperienced before and thought
they'd managed.
It's mood changes, it'sirritability, it's shouting at
the kids, it's getting angry,it's overwhelmed, it's a feeling
of not being able to managethings that before were really
routine and that you couldhandle.
It's sleep.
So sleep's huge.
Sleep is a massive sort offoundational across any gender,
(06:16):
across any condition.
Sleep is one of the things thatI'm going to be checking in on
because that has such anoverarching effect across mood,
across concentration.
So getting in touch with how'syour sleep?
What can we do to help withsleep?
There's also, for some women,there's a real sense of loss and
a sense of grief around losingthat reproductive function.
Sonya (06:36):
And do you find that that
also leads into a loss of
identity as well?
Because I know one of thecatchphrases is that we, I think
I've used over time and manyclinicians are now saying it's.
One of the catchphrases is thatwe, I think I've used over time
and and many clinicians are nowsaying it's one of the most
common things that they hear iswomen that go in and say I just
don't recognize myself anymore,I don't feel like me anymore
absolutely.
Leanne (06:56):
That's a huge part of it
and that's something that sort
of therapy can really help with.
Um, when society values you forsomething, and for women,
that's your reproductivecapacity.
When that goes away, when youlose that, you just are at sea
as to who you are and how younavigate moving forward.
I think society is also, as weknow, really against women
(07:16):
ageing.
If you look your age or ifyou're ageing, you're kind of
failed at life for some reason.
Sonya (07:23):
And I find Australia to
be a really particularly ageist
society.
Leanne (07:27):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree the whole idea ofanti-aging.
We have all these anti-aging.
If you're not aging, thenyou're dying.
Sonya (07:34):
So there is only one
other option, exactly.
Leanne (07:38):
I don't fancy that
option.
So I think that is absolutelysomething that women struggle
with, and we've always been kindof programmed to try and be
pleasant and attractive andsuddenly, when that's shifting,
it's really hard to navigatewhat the next stage looks like.
Sonya (07:54):
Yeah, and I think also, I
would imagine, that when you
combine that with, for me itwould have been, around the time
where my boys were leavingschool and they were going out
into the world to create theirown lives been around the time
where my boys were leavingschool and they were going out
into the world to create theirown lives, and a part of my
identity was very wrapped up inbeing a mother and being there
to provide them with everythingthat they needed, and when they
(08:14):
no longer needed that much fromme.
I found that there was a shiftin identity there as well.
Leanne (08:20):
Absolutely.
You know women are caregiversand when that shifts, you know
who am I when I'm not mum tosmall children anymore, who am I
when they don't need me anymore?
That's how I've wrapped up myidentity for all this time.
What do I do now?
So yeah, it's reallydiscombobulating.
I love that word.
Sonya (08:36):
It's a great word, isn't
it?
Leanne (08:38):
It's real, it really
shakes things up, so that, on
top of everything else and allthe other stresses that you're
going through is so confusingand so invalidating because you
just don't know what's happeningand how you move forward.
You know, I still see womencoming in with ADHD and
neurodiversity questions because, as we know, even for women
that aren't neurodiverse,symptoms like ADHD show up.
(08:59):
You know that inability toconcentrate and problems with
memory and if you had managedyour neurodiversity before now
by using all these strategies,often during PERI you don't have
the capacity or the addedstress brings them all out and
you can't mask them anymore.
So there's a big uptake indiagnosis around this time as
well.
Sonya (09:20):
I recently had as a guest
on the podcast just before
Christmas, my AssociateProfessor, caroline Gervich, and
we talked very much about thatdiagnosis of neurodiversity and,
yeah, exactly what you justtalked about.
You know women that hadprobably had ADHD at different
conditions for most of theirlife but had been able to mask
(09:42):
and had been able to cope, butall of a sudden found themselves
in perimenopause and weren'table to anymore.
Leanne (09:47):
Exactly, and that is
really invalidating too.
How have I lived my whole life?
I've been struggling with thisthis whole time and I didn't
know I didn't have the support Ineeded throughout this, and
then it just all unravels duringperi.
Sonya (10:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Do you find that the women thatare coming to see you because,
as we've already touched on,they're not coming to you and
saying, hey, I'm inperimenopause or hey, I'm in
menopause, it's, hey, I'mstruggling with this, yeah, have
they been down the path wherethey've been to a GP, perhaps to
have that same conversationbefore they come to you?
Leanne (10:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, usually tryingantidepressants or have tried
and didn't find it helpful, weremaybe dismissed with.
You know, that's just what it'slike to be a busy woman at this
age all different types ofinvalidation, which to me in
this day and age is shockingthat the knowledge isn't there
of how early the symptoms canstart.
You know, 35 is still within anormal timeframe for you to
(10:39):
start experiencing thesesymptoms.
So again, women's kind of beinggaslit by the medical system in
that they don't know what'sgoing on.
And when you don't know what'sgoing on it's really confusing
and hard to find your pathforward.
Sonya (10:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So when you have a woman thatpresents and you've identified,
as you said, you kind of getthere together to say we should
perhaps look at whether this isperimenopause or whether this is
menopause.
What therapies do you tend tofind work the best for these
women?
Leanne (11:09):
Well, you know, I really
have a really varied approach.
It's almost like what therapiesdon't I use?
That might be an easierquestion.
So I'm really really treatingthe woman in front of me.
So I don't have a cookie cutterapproach.
I kind of steal and take fromall different types of
modalities.
So meeting her where she's at,because often you know it can be
(11:31):
a whole spectrum of issues thatshe's facing.
You know, some women don't cometo see me with any pathology.
They come to see me becausethey want to shake things up and
they want to work on how theymove forward with their best
life and are looking for sort ofcoaching.
So it's a whole range ofdifferent modalities but my core
ones are probably CBT.
So, cognitive behavior therapy.
That's really helpful becauseit's getting in touch with your
(11:52):
thoughts and what core beliefsmight underlie the way you think
.
So you might have a negative,automatic thought that I'm
worthless or I'm not good enough, and that may make you behave
in a certain way.
You might avoid things thatthen might make you feel sad and
depressed and you might alsohave symptoms, like you know,
physical symptoms where you knowyour heart rate might increase
or your breathing might beshallow.
(12:14):
So there's all different wayswe can then work with those
different functions, all thosedifferent factors of the way
you're feeling.
So I also use a lot of ACT.
So acceptance and commitmenttherapy I find that really
helpful because it's acceptingthe fact that you are aging and
you are in midlife and menopauseis a thing, and you can also
live a values-based life whilstalso accepting that menopause is
(12:35):
happening.
Sonya (12:37):
Yeah, awesome.
I love the idea of those moretalking and validating therapies
?
Leanne (12:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
They're so important becausethat's how we communicate,
that's what women do to everyoneelse, so they're really
valuable to us.
That's how we work, right?
Sonya (12:51):
It really is, isn't it?
And I guess if somebody doesn'ttake it upon themselves to
perhaps think maybe I should goand see somebody to have a chat,
you don't realize how often wedon't get that reflected back to
us.
Leanne (13:05):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think you know being withgirlfriends and chatting with
girlfriends is really important,holding that connection.
There was this great quote Ithink it was the professor of
psychiatry from Stanford orsomething, and he said you know,
if a man wants to live a longlife, he should get married.
If a woman wants to live a goodlife, a long life, she should
have good girlfriends.
So there's that idea.
(13:27):
I know I love that, right.
Yeah, so that idea that youknow that social connection.
And if you look at the waywomen have evolved, you know, as
the hunter gatherers, we'vealways done things together as a
group, so group therapy can bereally a powerful way forward as
well.
Sonya (13:42):
Yeah, and I think, like
you say, if you've got a really
good, strong group ofgirlfriends, then that can be a
form of group therapy.
But if you're someone thatdoesn't because not everybody
has, for various reasons, agreat big, solid group of
girlfriends that they want toactually go and be vulnerable
with and have these morein-depth conversations, then
finding some group therapy or agreat therapist is obviously
(14:03):
going to be of benefit.
Leanne (14:05):
Yeah, I agree.
But I see a lot of women thatcome in and will say I don't
want to burden my friends or youknow there's still a lot of
shame and secrecy around howsymptoms manifest.
You know so for some women theymight have friends that are
managing okay, you know so theydon't want to come in and start
with the whole.
You know so for some women theymight have friends that are
managing okay, you know so theydon't want to come in and start
with the whole.
You know I'm really struggling.
So I think it's maybe seeingsomeone and getting some
confidence about your symptomsand that they're normal and that
(14:27):
it's okay, and then having thechats with friends as well yeah,
awesome.
Sonya (14:32):
And what about lifestyle
choices?
Do you find that getting intothat nitty-gritty of what is
actually going on across all thepillars of the lifestyle
beneficial as well?
Leanne (14:42):
Absolutely.
And you know, one of the greatthings about having sort of
weekly sessions, or however itlooks fortnightly, is
accountability, right?
So when someone comes in to seeme and we set goals, we set
smart goals that are measurable.
So the next week it'll bechecking in like how did you go
with that this week, how haveyou managed that?
And you know, in in a safe,non-judgmental space, because
(15:05):
you know I'm the first one toneed a couple of chips or a
choccy every now and then.
So it's not coming from a placeof judgment, it's okay.
How do what?
What got in the way and how canwe manage that for the next
week?
So how, what does that look,look like?
Moving forward?
Yeah, I think we need to reallyrecognize all the pillars.
You know, if the pillars aren'tall, don't all have the same
amount of emphasis, it's goingto be a pretty rocky foundation.
So I think your diet's hugelyimportant.
So is exercise.
(15:25):
As I said, sleep's reallyimportant, stress management,
which is something that therapyis really good for, and
obviously, if you want to choosehormonal therapy or other
medications as well, they'reavailable.
Sonya (15:36):
Yeah, fantastic, and I
know for myself personally, when
I made the decision to stopdrinking alcohol, that played a
huge part in not only helping memanage my symptoms I definitely
had an impact on my hot flushesbut I found that it really made
a big difference to my qualityof my sleep and the thoughts
(15:58):
that I had about myself when Iwas drinking.
So you know you yeah, it'sfunny I really noticed that I
have different conversationswith people when I'm drinking
versus when I'm not, and I thinkthere's a lot of research now
coming out that shows that awoman in particular's ability to
metabolize is one part of it.
(16:18):
But it's actually more to dowith.
You just can't cope with drinkwith alcohol anymore.
Like your system just somethingchanges and you really find
that it's something that justdoesn't work for you anymore.
Do you find that you have thoseconversations as well?
Leanne (16:32):
yes, it's, it's it's.
How am I gonna wear this?
It's, uh, sometimes it's really, it's really challenging
because often there are two verydifferent opposing views.
So often women turn to alcohol,to self-manage and to
self-soothe and get through this.
So obviously that's quite amaladaptive way to cope because
the stresses are still going tobe there when you sober up they
(16:53):
say they're probably going to beworse because you're going to
be hung over.
And then where they alsorecognize that they need to give
this up.
But it's been kind of thesecurity blanket for a long time
.
So there's a part of anintuition, I think, in your body
that knows that this is notserving you anymore.
You know, it's a felt sense ofwhy am I doing this?
This is not right.
You know this is not actuallyhelping, but then it's been that
(17:14):
sort of crutch for so long.
So, yeah, absolutely.
It's very common for women tocome in and say, hey, and it's
all very sheepish, you know, Ithink maybe I'm drinking a
little too much and workingabout putting different
strategies in place to help copeand different habits, because
for a lot of people it's a habityou know, 5 o'clock I can see
that glass of wine.
So it's about okay, 5 o'clock,let's go for a walk, let's do
(17:34):
other things, so we're notfeeling that same pull to go for
the wine.
Sonya (17:39):
I was listening to a Mel
Robbins podcast this morning and
it was one that was all aboutmorning routines.
It was actually about settingyourself up with really good
morning routines and changingyour routine if it's a routine
that actually is working againstyou rather than for you but you
don't necessarily realise thatbecause it's your routine.
But she was talking about thechanges, and she actually quoted
(18:01):
James Clear, who wrote AtomicHabits, and one of the things
that he talks about is that youcan try and change as many
habits as you like, or you cantry and set as many goals as you
like, but if your systemsaren't right, then that's going
to be really hard to achievethose goals and those habits,
and so that's what she said yourto achieve those goals and
those habits, and so that's whatshe said.
Your morning routine is asystem, and so if your system is
(18:25):
not work, set up to work foryou, then you're not going to be
able to succeed.
And then, if we take that intowhat you were just talking about
, you know that system, but atthe opposite end of the day, so
it being that winding down withwith alcohol and you know, a
glass of wine while you cookdinner, and then a glass of wine
over dinner, you know.
Leanne (18:42):
In the dinner After
dinner.
No, the bottle's gone.
Sonya (18:47):
Yeah, it probably does
play out like that sometimes.
But yeah, if we don't, like yousaid, find something to replace
and so therefore create and setup a whole new system, if
nothing changes, nothing changes.
Leanne (18:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean some of it's exploring.
What do you think this is doingfor you?
You know, how is this?
What is this?
Is it numbing?
Does it make me more confidentso I can feel better at parties?
You know, what function is thisbehaviour serving for you?
So that's the first thing.
And then looking at ways,brainstorming together ways we
can avoid that sort of pull ofthe addiction.
So, whether it's okay, well,what happens at five o'clock?
(19:20):
Well, you know, that's when I'mmaking dinner.
The kids are screaming, youknow, okay.
Well, how can we shift that?
When I gave up drinking, Istarted having like really nice
fizzy water and I serve it in areally nice glass of lots of ice
and lime and, you know, alittle umbrella in the side.
So it still felt like I wasspoiling myself and doing
something for me.
So replacing that idea ifthat's what you're getting from
drinking.
So, absolutely, it's aboutproblem solving barriers that
(19:43):
are going to stop you fromgiving up, and it's also looking
at what's underlying that pullas well, and incremental change.
You know, you don't have tocompletely give up straight away
.
It can be okay, let's just makethis less until we get to the
place where we want to get.
Sonya (19:56):
Yeah, if you get to that
place and not everybody will,
like you, say Exactly, yeah,awesome.
So one of the questions that Iwanted no, we've touched on that
, okay.
So one of the questions I kindof wanted to explore with you a
little bit was around thepsychological effects of
perimenopause and menopausebeing undervalued by other
clinicians.
So do you find that?
(20:18):
I guess that a lot of thestories that I hear in a lot of
the interviews that I do,particularly with women that are
sharing their lived experience,will be that they went to their
doctor and their doctor youknow there's that dismissiveness
of well, you know your periodshaven't changed and you know you
don't have hot flushes, sotherefore it can't be
perimenopause, and there's nokind of further investigation
(20:41):
into those.
You know more mental health,mood, anxiety, kind of things
that are showing up.
Do you agree that it's anaspect that's undervalued?
Leanne (20:51):
Absolutely.
I think I'm sort of positionedto be able to comment on two
areas really, because it'sreally undervalued and
underexplored.
In my own profession as well.
I think that in the field ofpsychology it's not understood
effectively.
I can't tell you the amount ofpeople that have maybe seen a
therapist before, and becausethere wasn't that validation and
because the strategies may nothave been tailored to where they
(21:13):
are in life, it just hasn'tbeen helpful.
There haven't been practicalstrategies for them.
So I think that, as one of therecommendations in the inquiry
stated, we really need a crossthe board approach to changing
education and making sure thatpsychology and medical health
works across the lifespan.
It doesn't stop when you stophaving babies.
You know your life continuesthrough that.
(21:34):
But I would absolutely say thatso many women come and see me
after having, as I said, beinggiven antidepressants or being
told that it's just life, dealwith it.
You know, with PNDD premenstrualdysphoric disorder women are
often told that you know thatsuffering is normal, it's part
of being a woman.
When it's completely not, Ithink society kind of
(21:55):
overemphasises women's capacityfor suffering.
In terms of being a woman, yourperiod should be painful and
that's just a bit of PMS, you'llbe fine.
I think we really need to getin touch of what's normal, and
that happens by talking about it, you know.
If we're not talking about it,how do we know what normal is?
Coming back to what youactually asked me no, that's
okay.
(22:15):
Yeah, so in terms of psychology, there's a small sort of
handful of us that are trying tore-educate or help our fellow
psychologists in understandingwhat's happening.
There's some people that areputting out webinars.
I'm speaking at the australianpsychological society conference
later this year on navigatingperimenopause and that mental
well-being very nervous aboutthat, but it's happening.
Sonya (22:36):
So there are people there
that are trying to make things
happen yeah, it's a little bitlike this whole conversation
that we're having in thiscountry right now.
I'm so grateful that we've gotlittle pockets of clinicians
probably across all aspectsallied health, gps,
obstetricians, gynecologists, um, oncologists, and then getting
(22:57):
into the psychologists as welland there are little groups of
people in there that are allchipping away at making a
difference and changing, as yousaid, right at the very
beginning.
When the next generation or thegeneration behind them come
through, all of this chippingaway will have created a big
enough difference that theydon't experience the same
(23:19):
situation.
Leanne (23:20):
Yeah, and I mean change
comes from also educating women,
but women also demanding betterand demanding more.
So you know, we both knowpeople that have gone to their
GPs and said, hey, this isn'tgood enough, you need to do this
, you need to learn more aboutthis.
Hey, you said it wasn'tperimenopause and I needed a
blood test, where I've actuallyfound out that it can be
assessed based on symptoms.
So it's feedback, right, and if, if, if they are a great GP,
(23:43):
which there are so many outthere they will take that on
board and they'll go.
Okay, I need to know more aboutthis.
Tell me more.
Sonya (23:49):
So I think feedback's
really important of feeding that
information back to your GP soso that things change yeah,
that's a really good point and Ithink it's something we don't
talk about enough and Isometimes feel like we put too
much pressure on the women womanto be being her own detective
and trying to work outeverything herself and I think
we do forget to kind of say butyou know, you need to go back
(24:11):
and tell them.
It's like leaving a googlereview.
You've got to tell them the badstuff as well as because, like
parenting totally, yeah, well,for the greater good they kind
of have to yeah, exactly well,you know, get yourself okay
first, don't rush back therenext day.
Leanne (24:25):
But when you, when
you're coming from, even send an
email, maybe you know itdoesn't have to be if you don't
want to go back.
But you know it's such aconfusing and scary time to
finally get up the courage tospeak about some of these
symptoms which can be quitescary.
Talking about do I have earlyonset dementia.
Coming to terms with that andgoing to a professional who you
are hoping to seek help from andthen being kind of shown the
(24:48):
door without any realinformation or help is even more
confusing yeah.
And it makes you kind ofgaslight yourself, you start
second-guessing your symptoms.
Yeah, so it's definitelysomething that needs to be
looked at and discussed more.
The more we talk about it, themore, hopefully, it will filter
through.
Sonya (25:03):
I hope so too.
So what's your top pieces ofadvice for anyone that's out
there?
Maybe they're listening to thepodcast and they're starting to
think that perhaps somepsychotherapy would actually be
really beneficial and helpfulfor them.
Or they've been dismissed by aGP or even put onto
antidepressants but, like yousaid, are finding that they're
(25:26):
not necessarily making a bigdifference.
What are your top bits ofadvice for anybody in that
situation?
Leanne (25:31):
I feel like really
making sure that you find some
help.
That's menopause informed.
So that might be checking outthe Australasian Menopause
Society's website.
It might be looking at aclinician's website and seeing
if they talk about menopause onit or whether it's just, you
know, a little asterisk down thebottom or whether it's
something that they really workwith.
(25:52):
Because, as I said across theboard, whether it's a GP or an
oncologist, an endocrinologistor a mental health clinician, if
they're not targeting the rightproblem, they're not going to
be able to give the righttreatment.
Sonya (26:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good
tip.
Leanne (26:07):
So I think yeah, really
important and you know word of
mouth is always great, sochecking in with other people of
what they've experienced andbecoming, unfortunately, it's
advocating for yourself andbecoming your own detective too,
a lot of the time.
Sonya (26:19):
Yeah, yeah, great tips.
And my final question for youand I don't know, maybe we've
already answered this, but I'mreally keen to get a kind of
more specific answer to this asa question within itself If you
had a magic wand, what would youchange about the way that
perimenopause and menopause aremanaged in australia right now?
Leanne (26:41):
no, debbie.
Yeah well, first of all,obviously I would implement all
the changes suggested by thesenate inquiry, in particular
making access to hormone therapyequitable, preferably free.
Free would be good I've got amagic wand.
After all you do, yep um, andI'd like to ensure that
clinicians across the board hadthat training and that education
(27:03):
.
I'd really love it if womencould make their own informed
decisions about their care, soif all evidence-based treatments
were on the table at all times,that would be really helpful
too.
But, most importantly, I'd liketo change the narrative.
You know this is a big wand.
I got here it is.
I'm gonna make some big changes,but it's powerful, so it's okay
, exactly.
I'd also like to really changethe narrative around menopause
(27:25):
and women aging in australia.
As you said, australia isparticularly ageist, so instead
of kind of viewing it as alwaysand essentially a time of
decline and deterioration,exploring the potential for
change Positive psychology issomething I use all the time in
trying to make this a window ofopportunity and a window of
growth for women.
Some women are struggling toget out of bed, so that's not
(27:46):
going to be on the agenda, butfor other women it's a spectrum
of experience and everyone'sexperience is as unique as they
are.
So for women that are managingokay and want to look at the
what's next, so I think, reallyexploring the idea of having a
menopause me too movement wherewe all just open up and share
and get vulnerable, kind ofbreak down those boundaries and
talk a bit more about what it'slike for them.
(28:09):
You know women are often kind ofpraised and raised to be the
you to favor, uh, to favorattachment over authenticity.
So getting back to authenticity, and you know we're always the
caregivers, we're the ones thatlook after everybody, we're the
family shock absorber.
You know we absorb all thisstuff.
So for a lot, for a lot ofwomen when they come to see me,
(28:29):
there's all these patterns andall these core beliefs that
aren't serving them and thatparticularly start to get a bit
shaky around perimenopause.
So trying to get back in touchabout what do authentically I
like, like, what am I interestedin, what are my wants and needs
and how do I find joy.
So exploring that, I think, isalso a really great opportunity.
Sonya (28:49):
I think that's brilliant.
I think that that's a greatwand that you've just waved
across Australia and perhapsglobally as well.
That would be amazing.
But, yeah, I love those notesthat you just finished up on
then, and I think that it wouldbe so amazing if we could just
get women into that place to bemore authentic and to share more
vulnerably, no matter who youare, and we need to see those
(29:13):
within society that do hold rolemodel positions.
You know, however, theyachieved those, but they're the
people that most often we lookto to base our own experiences
on whether that's right or wrong, but we do.
We need them to be a whole lotmore authentic and transparent
about what's going on for themas they age, rather than this
whole.
The world's a wonderful placeand I'm doing awesome.
(29:35):
Yeah, I don't agree more.
Leanne (29:37):
I couldn't agree more.
It's going to take women tochange this.
It's going to take women toshift this narrative.
It's going to take us notbuying into that sort of ageist
bullshit.
It's going to take us shiftingthat of what it looks like to be
50, you know, exploring thatand only supporting movies and
companies and people that alsounderstand that and support that
.
You know there was I waswatching this video and it was
(30:00):
Naomi Watts coming around andtalking about what her
perimenopause journey was likeand kind of doing a bit of a me
too, you know, being open andsharing, and everyone else at
that round table was just kindof nodding their head and
looking a bit nervous and no oneelse shared that.
Shared because you know, and Iunderstand the fears there, that
there's such a negativestereotype against aging.
But that is what it's going totake to shift.
Sonya (30:19):
But that's what we need
to shift, isn't?
It it's what is driving thatfear underneath everything.
Leanne (30:26):
Yeah well, if we kind of
deify this idea of the perfect
woman who has no wrinkles and isa size eight, and if that
becomes what we think of as whatwe need to aspire to, then when
you don't meet thoseexpectations which 99% of us
don't you feel like you'vefailed, and that's another thing
to lump on a woman's back,unfortunately.
Sonya (30:45):
Yeah, it's a pretty big
backpack we're wearing, isn't it
?
Leanne (30:48):
I'm over it.
I'm putting it down.
Sonya (30:51):
I think I put mine down
and I think for me I've talked
about this a lot and you touchedon it that for some women, this
opportunity to really get clearon what it is that you want and
what brings you joy and who youwant to be in what I consider
to be the next or my second actor third act or whatever it is.
But I love this space and Ihave become much more confident
(31:16):
and I have become bolder.
I don't think I've put downeverything from that backpack,
like there's definitely a fewlittle things that I'm holding
onto there, but I was able toput aside the really big things
that I know weren't serving meany longer and I chose not to
bring them forward with me.
Leanne (31:31):
Sonia, that's amazing.
That's wonderful, I think.
I think sometimes we can knowintellectually things that we
should do and ways that we canmove forward, but from a felt
sense, like it still exists inour body somewhere.
So I feel like getting in touchwith what's behind all these
things, like why do I think likethat?
Exploring and getting curious,not furious.
So if a thought's popping intoyour head like why do I think
(31:54):
like that, it's because societyhas trained me to think like
that.
Or you know, this is whathappened when I was a kid.
Or you know, oh, no wonder,because all these other things
are happening.
So, instead of gettingfrustrated and furious about
something, start trying toexplore what the thought is or
what the behavior is.
Sonya (32:19):
And then when you kind of
give yourself that distance,
it's really much easier to seewhat's going on than when you're
kind of stuck in your head.
Yeah, I think it's a reallylovely note to finish up on.
We explored that whole factthat you know it isn't the end
of life, it's not the end of ouryears by date.
There is this window ofopportunity, and when we are
able to get to a point where wecan jump through that window, it
really gives us the opportunityto set ourselves up for a
wonderful next part of our lives.
Leanne (32:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Look, some of us might need aboost up to the window, but I
think we're definitely strongertogether.
It's about sharing experiences,supporting each other,
recognising that if it was abreeze for you, it might not be
for someone else, so they mightneed some extra support and
valuing everyone's experienceand everyone's journey to get
through the window, I know.
Sonya (32:59):
And the other thing,
sorry, I feel like we keep
coming up with new things here,but one of the things you just
mentioned, then, which I thinkis really important to touch on
as well, is, even though itmight look like it's been a
breeze for somebody else, whatyou see versus what has actually
happened are often two verydifferent things.
So and I'm really conscious ofthe fact for me to sit here and
(33:20):
say I'm now in this space whereI feel confident and I'm bold,
and you know, I'm looking atwhat I'm doing for the next half
of my life, it's taken me thisyear it'll be eight years since
my medical induced menopause toactually get to this point.
So, and they were hard years,they weren't easy years, that
you know.
There's a lot of work that goesinto it for a lot of people,
and so the other great sayingthat I love is we should never
judge ourselves by somebody'schapter 35 when we're on chapter
(33:43):
three.
Leanne (33:43):
Great point?
Yeah, absolutely, and you knowit's great that you can validate
that and reflect back that.
I'm here now, I'm kind of atthe peak, but I can see your
journey ahead of you up theneighboring mountain.
I think that's really important.
Sonya (33:57):
Yeah, and that comes back
to that transparency and
authenticity, doesn't it?
Absolutely.
Leanne (34:01):
So when we?
Sonya (34:01):
are transparent about
that and we are authentic about
that.
That does show those that arecoming up behind us that it's
okay when it's hard, becauseit's actually hard for everyone.
Leanne (34:11):
Yeah, and it's okay to
kind of suck at this.
It's all new for us, right?
If we consider menopause to bea developmental stage and
something we're working on.
We're much more compassionateto adolescents and arts their
hormones, you know.
We'll give them a break andwe'll let them get away with a
bit, because they're navigatingthis shift in identity where
they're moving from child toadult.
For a lot of women, that's thesame thing.
We're shifting, we're pivotingcompletely to a whole new stage.
(34:33):
So allowing, allowingself-compassion, you know,
changing our expectations sothat we won't be treated in a
certain way.
We will advocate for ourselves.
We'll be compassionate towardsourselves and our fellow sisters
.
I think that's really importantas well, to remember that it's
okay to suck at this.
To start with.
You're just getting used to it.
Your brain's also adjusting tothe different hormone balances,
(34:54):
so it's okay, everything's okay.
Whatever experience you need,whatever support you need,
whatever is going for you isokay.
Sonya (35:01):
I love that and that is
such an important message to end
on.
I think that, wherever you'reat, it's okay.
Leanne (35:07):
Absolutely, and whatever
experience you have is valid
and whatever help you need,whether it's lots or none, is
also valid.
And okay, yeah, awesome.
Sonya (35:16):
Leanne, thank you so much
for our conversation today.
I've really enjoyed it.
I hope that everybody listeningis able to take away a little
glimmer of something that mightbe helpful to them, or if this
perhaps prompted you to thinkabout maybe a friend or a family
member that is maybe strugglingin this area, then please share
the episode with them as well,because I think that when we
(35:38):
listen to others talking aboutwhat their authentic experiences
has been, and we can hear fromsomeone like Leanne, who works
so closely with women in thisspace, that's where we can
perhaps get the courage and theconfidence to actually go and
seek help for ourselves.
Leanne (35:50):
Absolutely, and thank
you for your amazing podcast.
I think women find it sogratifying because I know you
speak to all different types ofpeople across all different
experiences, and that's soimportant to know that there's
not one cookie cutter experiencefor everybody.
So thank you for the podcast.