March 13, 2025 • 40 mins
What happens to our sexuality during menopause? Far from signalling an end to pleasure and intimacy, this transition offers an unexpected opportunity for sexual rediscovery and deeper connection.
Psychologist and sexologist Laura Lee joins me in this episode to masterfully unpack the evolution of desire through midlife, challenging our cultural fixation on "loss of libido" by revealing how desire simply changes form.
Sexual communication can feel particularly challenging during menopause, when changing bodies and shifting desires create vulnerability. Laura provides practical strategies for starting these conversations without the paralysing pressure many couples feel. Rather than dreading "the talk," she suggests sharing resources, expressing genuine curiosity, and validating one another's experiences to foster meaningful dialogue about evolving needs.
Perhaps most thought provoking is Laura's invitation to expand our sexual menu beyond the narrow, penetration-focused definition of sex that dominates cultural narratives. By embracing a broader understanding of sexual connection—from sensual touch to passionate kissing—we create more opportunities to say "yes" to pleasure, even as our bodies change. This expansion allows us to discover new pathways to pleasure uniquely suited to our midlife bodies.
Ready to transform how you think about sex during menopause? Listen now to discover how this transition can become not an ending but the beginning of your most authentic sexual experience yet.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sonya (00:01):
Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast.
I'm Sonya Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations,
(00:25):
needs to hear them.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
Welcome to today's episode.
Everybody, I am joined today bythe lovely Laura Lee.
Now, Laura is a psychologistand sexologist and she is here
for us to talk about a wholehost of topics around sexuality,
desire, the evolution of oursexual relationships throughout
(00:46):
our life stages, which I thinkis going to be a really cool
conversation.
Laura, welcome to the show.
Why don't you start off bytelling everyone a little bit
about who you are?
Laura (00:55):
Thank you, thanks, sonya, I'm so pleased to be here.
I'm actually really excited forthis conversation too.
So, as you said, I work as apsychologist and a sexologist.
I really love working at thatintersection of all things sex
relationships and mental health.
So that's really the work thatI do.
I have a clinical practice andI do a whole bunch of different
(01:16):
therapy and coaching bits andpieces.
I work at that intersection tohelp people to really explore
and enjoy and embrace theirsexuality wherever they're at.
In that, journey.
Sonya (01:27):
Did you start off as a psychologist and then move into
sexology, or vice versa?
How did that kind of unfold?
I did so.
Laura (01:35):
I've been a psychologist for quite some time now I'm in
my early forties now and I'vebeen a psychologist since I was
25 and I've had my own clinicalpractice for quite a few years
and had worked in the clinicaland coaching space for the
entirety of my career, reallyand what I noticed was happening
was my clients and I mostlywork with women Most of my
(01:55):
clients, a lot of my clientswere starting to talk to me
about sexuality, sex withintheir relationships and things
to do with sex that I myself hadexperienced, you know, do
issues of communication,difficulty communicating or
issues of pain or difficultynavigating it in their partnered
relationships, and what I feltin myself as a psychologist was
(02:16):
a real desire to help.
I was pretty comfortable talkingabout sex although that's been
a whole journey for me in and ofitself but I felt really
ill-equipped because sex issomething that's not really
covered in a lot of our training.
And as I started to talk toother healthcare providers, I
realized I was not alone.
Other healthcare providers,including doctors, were saying
to me yes, sex was hardlymentioned in my training, so I
(02:36):
typically just don't talk aboutit with my clients, and I was
like hold up, that doesn't soundright.
It's a part of all of our lives.
Regardless of whether or notwe're having sex, sexuality is a
part of all of us.
So I went back and retrained.
I did a Master's in sexual andreproductive health and
psychosexual therapy, but thatwas only a couple of years ago,
so that was only in 2022, 2023.
(02:57):
And now, kind of I've reallyembraced for myself working in
this sexology space and I havethe enormous pleasure of talking
to people about their sexualityand their sexual selves every
single day.
Sonya (03:14):
I think that's so cool and I love thank you for sharing
that part of your story with us, because I think it's really
important to sometimesunderstand what actually led
somebody into their field ofexpertise, because often, you
know, it's not as simple as likeoh, I just decided I wanted to
be a doctor, so I went tomedical school and now I'm a
doctor.
I'm going to make a broadassumption here Please don't
come at me anybody that'slistening with this but I feel
(03:38):
that it is most likely,particularly in the space that
we're talking about, a womanthat is likely to have started
in her field of expertise, beenopen and listening to her
patients and her clients, andthen decided that to be able to
really serve them in the bestway possible, she needs to go
(03:58):
off and upskill and really getthe education and the skills
required to be able to supportpeople where they're at and with
what their real burning needsare.
Laura (04:08):
Yeah, yes, absolutely.
I think the other piece, too,for me was that I work with
women of all different ages anda lot of what I was hearing from
younger women really surprisedme.
I think I thought sexual healthliteracy and sex education was
better than it was when I wasmaybe in my, but it's kind of
not the.
The access to more informationis both a good and a bad thing,
(04:31):
and I was hearing some beliefsystems, some values, some myths
about sex and relationshipsthat I had thought were kind of
were kind of gone now.
I thought, yeah, those thingsdidn't exist anymore, but they
still did.
And these, you know, what I washearing from my clients was
these issues still requiredsupport, the way that I wished
I'd had when I was a youngeradult and first starting to
(04:54):
explore my sexuality.
Sonya (04:56):
That's really interesting , isn't it?
And I would imagine, as well asall of those myths that still
exist and the topics that arestill a bit taboo and not spoken
about and addressed, there'salso, for the younger
generations, that added layer ofsocial media and digital porn
and all of that sort of thing.
It must be a really complexworld for the younger
generations that are comingthrough in that many respects,
(05:17):
but they're not who we're hereto talk about today.
From what I've gathered, youreally are passionate about
communication, desire, beingable to communicate in a way
where that desire is satisfied.
So how about you kick us offwith why sexual communication is
so difficult?
You know, I sit here as a55-year-old woman thinking when
(05:37):
you were saying the youngergeneration are still working
their way through some of thesemyths I kind of go, I'm 55, you
know, I've been having sex nowfor probably 40 odd years.
There are still things that Ifeel now that I wouldn't go and
ask for help around because Ikind of go, I'm 55.
I should not have sorted thisstuff out by myself.
(05:59):
This feels a little bit sillyfor me to go and ask questions
about now.
Does that make sense?
Laura (06:04):
It makes so much sense.
I really appreciate you sharingthat because you are definitely
not alone.
When I was first gettinginterested in studying, as I
said, I was hearing fromhealthcare providers they didn't
feel confident to talk about itwith their patients so they
weren't bringing it up.
And then, certainly just likewhat you were just sharing,
individuals don't feelcomfortable to go to the
healthcare providers.
The awkwardness is palpable youwere just sharing.
(06:25):
Individuals don't feelcomfortable to go to the
healthcare providers.
The awkwardness is palpable.
But within relationships it issuch a fraught topic.
I am yet to come across a moretense and emotionally charged
topic for most couples than sex,and it is in fact, very common
for people to be having acertain amount of sex whether
that's a lot or a little and nottalking about it, and I
(06:45):
certainly have experienced thatfor most of my relationships to
be having sex and not reallytalking about the sex that we
are having.
The reason it is such a fraughttopic is that it is incredibly
high stakes.
So what I mean by that istalking about sex has some
really high risk to it in thatthere is a chance I'm going to
(07:08):
be judged, that I am going tofeel awkward or embarrassed,
that I'm going to feel ashamed,that I'm going to be rejected
and that I'm going to be hurt orhurt this other person I care
about.
So that feels pretty highstakes.
And then you overlay that withall our own stuff that we've all
got to some degree around sex.
You know our upbringing andwhether we were exposed to
(07:32):
healthy conversations about sex,which for most people was not
the case.
The fact that we still live ina very sex negative culture
where it's still pretty taboo totalk about this stuff.
There's lots of messaging we getvery frequently that there's
something about talking aboutsex that is like either not okay
, like not allowed or high risk.
You know, as I said before,high stakes.
(07:53):
So it feels it feels reallyscary and that really activates
things for people in their body.
I mean, I felt it.
I'm sure you have.
I can think of conversationsI've had in my own relationships
where you feel that activationof anxiety and stress just flood
through your system as you goto have one of these
conversations.
So I understand why peoplewouldn't.
I understand the avoidance.
Sonya (08:15):
Yeah.
So how do you?
Because I very much relate tothat.
You know I am a product of aCatholic schooling system.
I am a product of a generationwhere I can vividly remember.
So two things.
First of all, my parents nevershowed any, really any physical,
actual emotions towards eachother in front of us as children
(08:36):
.
There was never any holdinghands, no cuddling, no, nothing.
And then I can remember as ateenager starting to watch, you
know, shows where my mum mightwalk into the room and you'd be
watching, I don't know, prettyin Pink or something like that,
and that you know the maincharacters would be pashing on
screen and my mother would begoing.
It's disgusting, and there wasthis real kind of like, I guess
(08:56):
almost revulsion to the factthat these people were sexually
attracted to each other, thatthat was being depicted on
screen, and so I very muchrelate to what you're talking
about from the generation that Icame from and the upbringing
that I had.
So how do you break throughthat high risk and that feeling
of being judged or that this isnot a topic that I should be
(09:19):
having, you know, bringing up inconversation?
Laura (09:22):
Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that too, like
those experiences you had whenyou you were younger.
I've got those too.
I remember being activelydiscouraged from talking about
certain things or watchingcertain things.
Um, and I really acknowledgehow, uh how close shame is to so
many people's experiences ofsex, because shame refers to
(09:44):
those very tender spots that weall have that when they're
touched it feels like the mostpainful bruise you've ever had,
because it's those, it's thoseparts of ourselves where we feel
like we're not okay as we are,like I'm not enough, I'm
defective in some way.
It's very painful stuff andthat activates for a lot of
people with sex.
Most, most people have hadexperiences where they
(10:06):
experienced some of those risksI talked about before.
You know judgment or rejectionor awkwardness, so it's a really
real risk for people.
You know your question abouthow do you break through it.
I actually help my own clientsdo this by first understanding
the shame and the tender spotsthey have around this topic and
(10:27):
how that was never theirs in thefirst place, and what I mean by
that is that that shame hascome from to your example,
parents and their own stuff, andtheir own upbringing and the
cultural context within which weexist, and social media and
patriarchy and all these othersystems that exist to limit our
(10:48):
freedom to experience andexpress our sexuality.
So I think the first step isbeing really willing to
understand and unpack the shamethat we carry and how that's not
ours.
One of the really practicalexercises I get people to do
that can be really helpful is tostart to examine what are the
scripts I have around.
Sex Scripts are the storiesthat we kind of have told
(11:11):
ourselves and they're kind ofrunning in the background for
all of us and we all have them.
But the really exciting news isthat we can, once we know what
ours are, we can actually startto like, unlearn them and
relearn new ones.
So some of the most commonsexual scripts that I hear for
women, particularly women whohave sex with men, are things
like men are always up for sex,or sex is over when the man is
(11:35):
finished, or sex is aperformance, like sex is
something to perform well or begood at, like.
These are the kinds of scriptsa lot of us internalize when we
first started having sex.
I know I did and it takes real,it takes work and intentional
focus to know what they are,start to unlearn them and start
to learn some new ideas aboutourselves and our sexuality.
(11:57):
So I think that's the start.
Sonya (11:59):
Yeah, and that's.
That's a whole conversation Ican imagine having in a session.
That would require lots ofunpacking and lots of work.
But you know, as you say, thatability to be able to
communicate within ourrelationships is what is going
to lead us to actually seekingor achieving the desire that you
(12:23):
know we all deserve and that weall want at the end of the day.
So how does that play out then?
In couples and not evenlong-term couples, like
obviously I am, but somebodyperhaps that's in a new
relationship, there are a lot ofpeople at this midlife age that
find themselves in newrelationships.
Relationships change forvarious reasons, some end up for
(12:45):
various reasons, and then wefind ourselves out in that whole
dating pool again.
How does it become?
I think the term that you useis a multi-directional
conversation.
Laura (12:55):
Yeah, I think it's really important to find out if we
don't already know.
Find out if you're in arelationship with someone, no
matter what stage it's at.
Find out if it's one you'venever had before and you're
(13:21):
nervous.
I actually think that initialconversation is just a checking
for willingness.
It's not a raising of issues ortrying to solve problems.
It's not a hey, we've beentogether for 10 years and I want
to suddenly talk about our sexlife, because that sounds
terrifying.
It's really just a checking forwillingness along the lines of
hey, I and you might even sayhey.
I was listening to this podcastor I read this article today
(13:44):
and I've been thinking about thefact that I want us to have sex
together for quite a long timeto come and I really care about
us both having a greatexperience with our sexuality
and I think that would be reallynice for us to be nurturing and
prioritizing and talking aboutmore.
Are you up for that?
And finding out if they're evenup for that.
And that's it for the initialconversation.
(14:05):
That's actually it.
So that initial conversation isjust a checking for openness
and a great okay, you're up forit?
Fantastic, we'll make sure tokeep that conversation going,
right.
So that's the firstconversation.
I think there is this pressuresometimes to imagine that sexual
communication is a place wherewe're like raising issues.
I would like less of this, moreof this.
I'm not happy with this.
It's just a fluid, dynamic,ongoing conversation.
(14:29):
The power of that, by the way,is that that significantly
reduces that high stakes feelingwe were talking about before.
I'm in a relationship currentlywhere we talk about sex or our
sexual connection in somecapacity every single day.
I imagine that sounds quitefull on.
I think it would have to me upuntil a couple of years ago, but
I really understand now thatwhen I say that, that doesn't
(14:51):
mean we're sitting down andhaving emotionally charged, late
and heavy conversation.
That's about us just engagingwith each other in an erotic or
sexual or sensual way, whichcould be flirtation or
expressing attraction orexpressing desire or talking
about an old memory or justtouching each other.
It's just about nurturing thatpart of our relationship in some
(15:13):
way in a fluid, ongoingcapacity.
Sonya (15:16):
Yeah, that's really cool and thank you for sharing that
my reaction to you saying thatwas like, wow, as soon as I kind
of had that reaction, and thenyou were like, but that doesn't
mean it's a heavy ladenconversation, it could just be
an act of flirtation, it couldbe.
You know, that's like actually.
Yeah, and that kind of takes meback to those very early years
of our relationship when we werelike, I mean, obviously young,
(15:38):
but we were super flirtatiousand we were super into each
other and you did have thosedaily kind of interactions that
were much more, I guess,sexually charged than when
you're, you know, 35 years downthe track and you know you're
plodding along through life.
One of the other areas that I'mreally interested in hearing a
little bit more from you aboutand it's something that I
touched on a long time ago whenI had my first conversation with
(16:01):
Dr Kelly Casperson, who's anAmerican urologist and she does
a lot of work on female sexualhealth, and she was the first
one that introduced me to theidea of the difference between
spontaneous and responsivedesire and the reason I bring it
up, and you and I did have achat beforehand and this was one
of the things we were going totalk about is that that changes
(16:24):
over time, doesn't it?
And particularly when women arein this midlife kind of
transitional phase of life,hormones are a little bit
haywire.
We all know that one of thesymptoms of perimenopause and
postmenopausally can be a lossof libido, along with vaginal
changes and things like that.
So I feel like hand in handwith those changes goes that
(16:46):
kind of natural spontaneousdesire.
So if you are someone thatfeels like you've lost that as a
result of everything that'sgoing on, can you explain the
difference then between havingthat spontaneous desire and
having a more responsive desire?
Laura (17:02):
so I'm such a huge fan of these concepts of spontaneous
and responsive desire becausethey really expand our
understanding of what desire isnow.
Desire is our want and wish forsex, right, and culturally
we're pretty obsessed withdesire, like we are.
It's actually the number onereason people seek sex therapy.
People are so concerned withhow much they want sex, right.
(17:25):
So I just wanted to kind ofI'll come back to that
Spontaneous desire is.
This is what we think of whenwe think of spontaneous, of what
we think of desire.
It's that I'm walking aroundduring the day and suddenly I
just kind of feel like it.
It's kind of like that.
It just strikes me, and ifyou've typically experienced
your desire in this way, it canbe quite a shock and quite scary
(17:48):
if it changes right.
So I really acknowledge that ifyou are someone who has
experienced spontaneous desirewhich you probably have at some
point in your life, but maybenot if that changes to something
more responsive that can bequite a shock.
Responsive desire is when desirefor sex or want for sex shows
up when it's got something torespond to right.
(18:08):
So it might not strike you outof thin air, but when you do the
things that your body kind oflikes right which could be, you
know, being in a beautiful warmshower with your partner and
touching each other or gettinginto bed together and your naked
bodies are cuddling and maybethey're like stroking you and
you're like, oh yeah, now I kindof feel like it.
I hadn't given it a thought allday and I thought I couldn't be
(18:29):
bothered, but now I kind offeel like something.
So that is spontaneous andresponsive desire.
For women, 75% of their desireexperiences will be responsive
over the course of their life.
So we may as well get used tothe idea that most of the time
(18:52):
our desire for sex will onlyshow up when it's got a reason
to, it's got something torespond to right.
And actually for men it's 45%,so it's still pretty significant
.
So about half the time for men,desire will only show up when
it's got something to show upfor.
So I really like to help peopleto adjust their expectations
around what desire for sex mightfeel like it might not show up
(19:16):
out of thin air and, as I saidbefore, if it has before, that's
why people get so concernedwith this loss of libido, this
loss of thin air and, as I saidbefore, if it has before, that's
why people get so concernedwith this loss of libido, this
loss of sexual desire.
It's not lost, it's justchanged.
It's just changed and I reallytry to get people to bring some
compassion to that, that likethat's okay if it's changed, and
(19:36):
bring some curiosity to that.
This idea of adjustingexpectations is crucial,
particularly when it comes toour sexuality across the
lifespan, because not only doesour experience of desire change,
but our experience of oursexuality changes.
And that's where curiosity canbe so powerful, because if
(19:57):
there's something that used towork for you and you used to be
into and now it doesn't work somuch, I really understand why
that can be distressing forpeople.
But this is where I invitecuriosity, because I kind of go
okay, if something's not quitedoing it for you the way that it
used to, how interesting andexciting, because I wonder what
could now do it for you, whatcould now be of appeal to your
(20:19):
body that maybe wasn't before,like, maybe there's something
that you haven't tried beforebecause you thought you went
into, that you're open to tryingnow.
Or maybe there's something thatyour body didn't respond to
that much before, but maybe itwill now because your body's
different, because our bodiesare always changing.
So this idea of adjusting ourexpectations and leading with
curiosity and expansion is sucha powerful tool in our sexuality
(20:41):
.
Sonya (20:42):
Yeah, that's really interesting and I love that you
talk about there how to not lookat a loss of libido as a loss.
But it is actually just achange and to be expected.
Really, in many ways, when weare going through such a period
of change, with our hormonesbeing all over the place, you
know we see so many physicalchanges.
We know that we are also havingemotional, and you know, and
(21:05):
cognitive changes.
Then libido as well is justanother one of those changes
that I think you're right.
We've really hung this kind ofnegative connotation on it
through this constant overuse ofthe term.
It's a loss of libido.
Yeah, absolutely on it.
Through this constant overuseof the term it's a loss of
libido, because when you losesomething, you know you think
you're not going to get it back.
Laura (21:26):
Yeah, yes, and that's really scary for people If you
you know if your sexuality andyour sexual connection has been
a big part of your life and yourrelationship and then you feel
like it's lost.
That's terrifying for peopleand I really understand that and
I really.
That's why I'm so concernedwith this language of lost
libido and why I'm alsoconcerned with this focus on
(21:49):
desire more broadly.
As I said before, it's one ofthe most common reasons people
seek sex therapy, particularlymismatched desire or mismatched
libido in a relationship, and Iam firmly of the view here that
we all have mismatched desire.
What on earth is perfectlymatched desire to people wanting
the exact same kind of sex atthe exact same time every day
(22:11):
for the rest of their lives?
That is not going to happen.
Sonya (22:14):
No, that sounds very unattainable.
Laura (22:16):
Yes, absolutely so.
Instead, what we do, just likewe do in all areas of our life,
is negotiate, and you already dothis with your partners.
You already negotiate where youlive and what couch you buy,
and what you have for dinner andwhere kids go to school, and
what you're going to do on theweekend.
So you're already negotiatingand you're already both making
the best of what you can inthose situations Like, okay, I
(22:41):
kind of wanted a bigger couch,but this couch is still pretty
nice and I'll just I'll justmake sure I get the best spot on
the couch.
And so we're already we'realready bringing these
negotiation skills and we can dothat to our sex lives too.
We don't have to worry aboutbeing perfectly matched with our
partner all the time, but itcan be like, okay, what, what am
I up for?
What can I say yes to?
And that idea of, again,expansion and expansion of our
(23:05):
sexual menu is going to is goingto be key to experiencing our
sexuality positively across thelifespan.
Cause I'm going to, I'm goingto say something that I think is
going to be like shocking forpeople to hear it's shocking for
my friends when I say it whichis that, in some form or another
.
I have sex in my currentrelationship every single day,
(23:26):
but my definition of what sex isis really broad.
Sonya (23:29):
Yeah.
Laura (23:30):
It is very rarely anything penetrative actually,
but our cultural idea of sex isvery penetrative,
heteronormative narrow.
Sonya (23:41):
I do.
That's what you were going tosay.
We have so much associationwith sex, meaning penetration.
Yeah, yes, but it's great tohear actually that's not the
case.
Laura (23:52):
Yeah absolutely it's not, and some helpful language here
might be around moving away fromhaving sex to language like
being in a sexual space togetheror being in an erotic space
together.
So when I say to you my partnerand I spend time sexually
connecting every day, there's amillion things that fall into
(24:13):
that category for us.
That does not mean we're havinglike three hours of acrobatic
something or like, of course not.
We've both got like.
We've got like jobs.
My partner gets up for workvery early, like that is not
going to happen, right, but wedo.
We do something.
We do something.
It might be, you know, we havelike a spicy playlist that we
(24:35):
put on at night before we go tosleep and we might kiss and
cuddle and listen to that forlike a couple of songs and then
we go to sleep.
So we spend time nurturing thatpart of our relationship every
day and the really cool partabout that is that there's we
can usually together as Imentioned before about
negotiation we can usually findsomething we both want to say
yes to and that our love,responsive desire will show up
(24:58):
for.
Sonya (24:59):
Yeah, yeah Now.
So I think that leads us nicelyinto talking about what some of
the nonverbal forms of sexualcommunication are, because
that's what you've pretty muchjust expressed, and we've talked
a lot about communicating andnegotiating, but what are some
of the nonverbal forms ofcommunication when it comes to
(25:20):
being sexual?
Laura (25:21):
There is a really important part of any sexual
interaction that occurs betweenpeople who are having sex,
whether they've known each otherfor a couple of hours or many
decades, and that is the powerof attunement.
And attunement can only beachieved when we're able to be
as present as possible, aspresent as we can be, for an
(25:41):
interaction, and that's when wewill be able to both give and
receive nonverbal indications,feedback and consent Right.
So I want to talk about whatsome of those are.
One of the ways, though, that Iwant to kind of help people
think about this before I givesome examples, though, is an
exercise I sometimes do with myclients who are young adults and
(26:05):
who are getting ready to maybeyou know start to have sex for
the first time, is they have apretty clear understanding of
consent.
But sometimes I will say to myyoung clients how would you know
if somebody was saying yesverbally, but you had a gut
feeling?
The answer was really no.
How would you know?
When you say gut feeling, howwould you know?
And, of course, they talk to meabout eye contact and facial
(26:26):
expressions and body languageand tension and energy.
So they are the lovely examplesthat I would want to share here
of nonverbal communication thatwe can pick up when we are
really present and attuned withsomeone.
You will notice things in theirbody, movements, body language,
but also body tension, in theirown energy towards you, like
(26:50):
what they do to reach for you orto not reach for you.
And if you're wondering whatthis might look like with
someone you know, like a partneryou're already with, I want you
to bring your mind to anothersensory experience that you
observe or have with yourpartner.
So an example that I sometimesthink about with my own partner
my partner surfs and it makeshim a better human when he surfs
(27:13):
.
He really needs to be in theocean as much as possible, but I
can tell when he's been for asurf, sometimes without him even
telling me, and I think aboutthat when I say that to you, I
go how can I tell?
I can tell some things in hisface and the brightness and
lightness in his face and hisenergy and his posture, and how
enthusiastic he is towards me,and the tone and pitch of his
(27:34):
voice.
As I start to unpack that, andI think of the many different
ways in which his bodycommunicates to me the aliveness
and vitality it's felt frombeing in the ocean, I can bring
that now to our sexualinteractions and go, yep, do I
sense that kind of energy fromhim or not?
Does he seem kind of lowerenergy or distant, or yeah,
(27:56):
whatever it is?
So I think that's a niceexercise for people to do is to
think about other sensoryexperiences they have with their
partner, how their partnershows them enthusiasm or not
when they're doing other thingslike a delicious meal or
something like that, and thenyou can bring those cues and
information to your sexualencounters.
Sonya (28:15):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
I like that and, yeah, drawingthat information from that, an
experience that's not related tosex you do need to be having
those non-verbal cues to knowand you need to be able to read
them, and drawing on that withyour younger patients and
consent is really reallyimportant.
(28:36):
So, yeah, I think that wasreally well explained.
Thank you, I really resonatewith that.
I think that's really cool.
I'd like to bring up a topicnow that we didn't talk about
beforehand, but I'm sure you'llbe open to it.
Yeah, cool, and if you're not,we'll just edit it out.
But I think, if we go back towhere we started, which was
(28:58):
talking about areas that aretaboo and aspects of our
sexuality that we just have kindof been, I guess, a little bit
programmed to not talk about,however, is actually from what
I've been led to believe and youcan tell me if I'm right a very
important part of our sexualityand that is masturbation.
So where does masturbation kindof fit into all of this?
Laura (29:14):
Yeah, masturbation is so important, but I actually want
to take a minute to pause onwhat that means.
Most of the time when peoplemasturbate, they're in some
pretty ingrained patterns, right.
People go straight to touchingthemselves in the same way every
time, and they usually gostraight to genitals, and
they're usually doing it Notalways, but people are usually
(29:35):
masturbating for a pretty narrowscope of reasons, right.
They're usually doing it toachieve an orgasm, and that's
usually because they are horny,tired, bored or stressed.
That's pretty much the mainreasons, right.
Partnered sex is so much morediverse than that, but
masturbation has typically, formost people, followed that very
narrow script, and most peoplemasturbate in the same ways same
(29:56):
types of stimulation, samepositions, all of that kind of
stuff.
The reason masturbation, though, is so important is because, as
we've been talking about before, about our sexuality evolving
over the lifespan, so too doesour body and our body's
responses and the things that itenjoys, the type of touch, the
(30:16):
stimulation that it enjoys, andwe are going to be able to
communicate our desires muchmore confidently if we've
explored them with ourselvesfirst.
So I'm of the view, no matterhow long you've been in a
relationship or what kind ofrelationship you're in that
masturbation has a reallyimportant role to play in our
sexuality and sexual exploration.
It is a powerful teaching tool.
(30:37):
It's so powerful.
It's one of my favorite thingsfor people to do in a new
relationship is to masturbatetogether.
Show each other what your bodylikes, how you like to be
touched and what kind ofpressure and what kind of
stimulation.
But I also encourage people to.
You know, I've said the wordexpand a lot today, but for good
reason.
Expand the idea of whatmasturbation means.
(30:59):
Imagine what could happen if itwasn't straight to the genitals
or if you took orgasm off thetable and if the idea was I'm
going to touch myself all overmy body in lots of different
ways with different kinds ofpressure and stimulation, and
the goal is not orgasm.
The goal is exploration, right,or the goal is discovery, goal
(31:19):
is learning, just to kind of see.
Because the really cool thingabout our brains is how
malleable and plastic they are,and most of us, because we've
masturbated probably for areally long time and in the same
ways we've laid a really strongneural pathway in our brain
about how we achieve orgasm.
Sonya (31:40):
That was something that I read recently, which was what
partly prompted me to ask youabout it, because what I read
was that when you have kind oflaid down those pathways to this
is how I achieve orgasm, thisis what my body responds to that
then when you do have partneredsex and it's different that
those pathways don't kind offire up the same and therefore
(32:02):
it can be harder to achieve thatsatisfaction.
Laura (32:05):
Yes, absolutely.
We teach ourselves how toorgasm right.
So the really cool thing is wecan always lay new neural
pathways and teach our bodiesnew things, and we are probably
capable of other types ofarousal patterns and other types
of routes to achieving orgasmthat we just haven't explored
(32:25):
yet.
And we're going to be able todo that so much more, so much
more effectively, frankly, ifwe're on our own, if you have
the opportunity to explore yourbody on your own without
thinking about the other personand their needs in that moment,
just being able to be inherentlyself-focused, to just see to
just be curious.
Sonya (32:45):
That's interesting.
Thank you for going down thatlittle pathway with me.
I thought that it was importantbecause I feel like there is a
lot of conversation in thismenopause space and the midlife
space.
There is a lot of talk aboutwhat we've already touched on
that whole terminology aroundloss of libido, and then we talk
a lot about vaginal health aswell.
Obviously there's an old theoryof use it or lose it, which
(33:09):
absolutely needs to be thrown inthe bin well and truly.
But for women that are findingthat they're having painful sex
or they're having vaginaldryness and physical symptoms
that are holding them back fromthat penetrative sex, then
masturbation probably isencouraged and actually what
this brings me back to is thisidea of having a really very
(33:33):
broad sexual menu within which,most of the time, we will find
something to say yes to.
Laura (33:40):
And previously, if you've had a narrower menu that you
and your partner have beenordering from when it comes to
sex, that means there's going tobe less to say yes to and
you're more likely to say no.
And if penetrative sex has beena really large part of your
sexual interactions and nowthat's become something that's
(34:00):
less desirable, less comfortable, less pleasurable, you might
find yourself saying no to beingsexual with your partner
because the only thing you'vegot on the menu has been
penetration.
So what we want to do is justhave more things on the menu,
more to say yes to.
And when I said before that mypartner and I spend time in a
sexual space here every day,penetration is a very, very
(34:21):
small part of our sex lives,like very small.
I think people would besurprised how little.
Between the two of us, we kindof laugh when we have
penetrative sex because we'relike this is novel.
Oh my God.
Sonya (34:32):
That is so funny.
Laura (34:33):
We really do.
We really do, and he'llprobably listen to this video.
I know he doesn't mind mesharing, but we do.
We'll be like, look at us, lookat us having like missionary
penetrative sex.
It is such, it's such a narrowpart and that doesn't mean we're
doing like wild, strange thingsotherwise.
Yeah, yeah, we're doing all theother things you think of.
It's just not a huge part andthat's because for me, I have a
(34:54):
long history of pain, vaginismus, endometriosis.
Penetrative sex for a long timeis very uncomfortable for me,
so it's just not ever been asuper, super source of pleasure.
Sonya (35:04):
Pleasure yeah.
Laura (35:05):
Yeah, so source of pleasure, pleasure, yeah, yeah.
So it's just not a huge and, oh, it's definitely not how I
achieve orgasm and that's truefor most women.
The okay, yeah, so only about avery fortunate 25 to 30 percent
of women can achieve orgasmthrough penetrative sex, so the
vast majority.
It's not going to get us there.
Sonya (35:22):
I think that brings us back to that whole societal
perception of what sex is andwhat we see played out in movies
and television shows.
And if you're not somebody thathas perhaps grown up in an
environment where sex is talkedabout in a positive and
encouraging way and you'rerelying on what you're seeing
(35:43):
played out in other mediums,then you do, I would imagine,
have this perception thatpenetrative sex is how you
achieve orgasm.
Laura (35:52):
Absolutely, and it's so not for the vast majority.
Sonya (35:56):
And also that that is the end result, that is, you know,
which I guess is also related towhat we talked about right at
the very beginning.
You mentioned that some of thestories and some of the scripts
are that the purpose of sex isfor the man to achieve his
orgasm, and he achieves hisorgasm that way.
Laura (36:14):
That way.
Yeah, that's a really importantpoint.
What you said there about thatbeing the end goal.
It's kind of like this term,foreplay, which is not a term
that I use, but that's theimplication of that word.
Right, everything else comesbefore the main event of
penetration.
Sonya (36:27):
Yeah, which is why I don't know.
It's like an entree and thenthe main meal.
Laura (36:31):
Yes, yeah, absolutely so.
This is where there's going tobe so much.
There can be so much wonderfuldiscovery and pleasure to be
found in expanding that.
Sonya (36:42):
This is awesome.
This is such a greatconversation.
Laura, let's wrap everything up.
Can you share some practicalways that couples can improve
their sexual communication, likewhat's one thing that people
can do today to improve theirsexual?
Laura (36:58):
communication with a partner.
Okay, oh, so tricky to pickjust one and like, just like,
stretch the friendship and havetwo look as you, but we have a
menu here.
Sonya (37:07):
We have a menu.
Choose from the menu.
Laura (37:10):
Love this.
Well, I know I alreadymentioned earlier about the
first conversation being just acheck for just, are we up for
this?
So one of the ways you mightlike to have that conversation,
and one of my favourite ways forbringing up topics we're
nervous to talk about, is asharing of resources rather than
a direct conversation.
So we're nervous to talk aboutis a sharing of resources rather
than a direct conversation.
So listen to this podcast today.
I'd love for you to listen toit and let me know what you
(37:31):
think.
Or I share a video, or I.
You know.
Sometimes people communicatewith each other by sharing funny
videos from online and it'skind of like, well, this is me
and like, well, yep, that's whatit's like to be in a
relationship with you and itseems kind of lighthearted.
But it's still communication.
It's still sort of sharing ourexperiences, being seen, being
(37:52):
understood.
So I'm a huge fan of sharingresources like TV shows, blogs,
videos, articles, podcasts, toopen the door for the
conversation in a much lessthreatening way than the worst
nightmare of imagine yourpartner sitting down, turning
the tv off, turning to you andbeing like I need to talk to you
(38:14):
about our sex life, like I canfeel that in my own body you
would literally just like what,what to?
Sonya (38:20):
to just swallow you and immediately.
Laura (38:23):
I can't think of anything worse.
So that is not.
I think that's what sometimeswe think when we think of
communication.
But that's not so.
That is one of my favorite tipsis the sharing of resources.
My other favorite tip is thevalue of curiosity and
validation in our communication.
If we can feel our own stuffstart to get activated in our
(38:44):
body, because what happens forus like basic kind of fight or
flight stuff, if I start to feelanxious or under attack or
scared or threatened or whateverit is, I will move to defend
myself.
I'll move to safety seekingbehaviors to defend myself.
Safety seeking behaviors areusually not very helpful.
They're things like lashing out, starting a fight, deflecting,
(39:05):
making a joke shutting down.
Sonya (39:08):
Don't touch me.
Laura (39:09):
Yeah, absolutely that's what we will move to for safety
seeking If we can replace safetyseeking with curiosity and
validation.
So validation looks like.
Thank you for telling me, andthis makes sense to me when
you've told me more about yourexperience.
This makes sense to me, andcuriosity is that warm, you know
, know, inquiring.
What's that like for you?
(39:29):
What does that bring up for you?
What does that remind you of?
Tell me more about that, if wecan use those kinds of
strategies in our conversationrather than going to that
defensiveness, safety seekingstuff.
We can't promise much, but Ican tell you we significantly
increase the odds of thatconversation going in a
direction.
So that is my other tip for anyodds of that conversation going
(39:50):
in a different direction.
So that is my other tip for anytype of emotional conversation,
not just sex, but moving tothose behaviors like curiosity
and validation.
Sonya (39:57):
Rather, than those same strategies when we start to face
it.
Amazing, laura.
Thank you so so much for yourtime today.
I truly hope that thisconversation lands with as many
people as possible that reallyresonate with this shifting time
in life, but that potentiallyalso reflects into shifting
relationship with our bodies,relationship with our partners.
Transitioning through intomenopause does not mean that you
(40:18):
have to leave your sex lifebehind.
Laura (40:22):
Absolutely not.
I think it's a very excitingtime for our sexuality.
We just need these kinds oftools and support to help us
through it.
So thank you so much for havingme.
Sonya (40:29):
It's been so fun, my absolute pleasure.
And, laura, I will link throughto your website in my show
notes so that if anybody isinterested in perhaps learning
more about what you do or evenpotentially working with you,
they can find those details inthe website.
Laura, have an amazing day youtoo.
Thank you, sonia.
Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast.
I'm Sonya Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations,
(00:25):
needs to hear them.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
Welcome to today's episode.
Everybody, I am joined today bythe lovely Laura Lee.
Now, Laura is a psychologistand sexologist and she is here
for us to talk about a wholehost of topics around sexuality,
desire, the evolution of oursexual relationships throughout
(00:46):
our life stages, which I thinkis going to be a really cool
conversation.
Laura, welcome to the show.
Why don't you start off bytelling everyone a little bit
about who you are?
Laura (00:55):
Thank you, thanks, sonya, I'm so pleased to be here.
I'm actually really excited forthis conversation too.
So, as you said, I work as apsychologist and a sexologist.
I really love working at thatintersection of all things sex
relationships and mental health.
So that's really the work thatI do.
I have a clinical practice andI do a whole bunch of different
(01:16):
therapy and coaching bits andpieces.
I work at that intersection tohelp people to really explore
and enjoy and embrace theirsexuality wherever they're at.
In that, journey.
Sonya (01:27):
Did you start off as a psychologist and then move into
sexology, or vice versa?
How did that kind of unfold?
I did so.
Laura (01:35):
I've been a psychologist for quite some time now I'm in
my early forties now and I'vebeen a psychologist since I was
25 and I've had my own clinicalpractice for quite a few years
and had worked in the clinicaland coaching space for the
entirety of my career, reallyand what I noticed was happening
was my clients and I mostlywork with women Most of my
(01:55):
clients, a lot of my clientswere starting to talk to me
about sexuality, sex withintheir relationships and things
to do with sex that I myself hadexperienced, you know, do
issues of communication,difficulty communicating or
issues of pain or difficultynavigating it in their partnered
relationships, and what I feltin myself as a psychologist was
(02:16):
a real desire to help.
I was pretty comfortable talkingabout sex although that's been
a whole journey for me in and ofitself but I felt really
ill-equipped because sex issomething that's not really
covered in a lot of our training.
And as I started to talk toother healthcare providers, I
realized I was not alone.
Other healthcare providers,including doctors, were saying
to me yes, sex was hardlymentioned in my training, so I
(02:36):
typically just don't talk aboutit with my clients, and I was
like hold up, that doesn't soundright.
It's a part of all of our lives.
Regardless of whether or notwe're having sex, sexuality is a
part of all of us.
So I went back and retrained.
I did a Master's in sexual andreproductive health and
psychosexual therapy, but thatwas only a couple of years ago,
so that was only in 2022, 2023.
(02:57):
And now, kind of I've reallyembraced for myself working in
this sexology space and I havethe enormous pleasure of talking
to people about their sexualityand their sexual selves every
single day.
Sonya (03:14):
I think that's so cool and I love thank you for sharing
that part of your story with us, because I think it's really
important to sometimesunderstand what actually led
somebody into their field ofexpertise, because often, you
know, it's not as simple as likeoh, I just decided I wanted to
be a doctor, so I went tomedical school and now I'm a
doctor.
I'm going to make a broadassumption here Please don't
come at me anybody that'slistening with this but I feel
(03:38):
that it is most likely,particularly in the space that
we're talking about, a womanthat is likely to have started
in her field of expertise, beenopen and listening to her
patients and her clients, andthen decided that to be able to
really serve them in the bestway possible, she needs to go
(03:58):
off and upskill and really getthe education and the skills
required to be able to supportpeople where they're at and with
what their real burning needsare.
Laura (04:08):
Yeah, yes, absolutely.
I think the other piece, too,for me was that I work with
women of all different ages anda lot of what I was hearing from
younger women really surprisedme.
I think I thought sexual healthliteracy and sex education was
better than it was when I wasmaybe in my, but it's kind of
not the.
The access to more informationis both a good and a bad thing,
(04:31):
and I was hearing some beliefsystems, some values, some myths
about sex and relationshipsthat I had thought were kind of
were kind of gone now.
I thought, yeah, those thingsdidn't exist anymore, but they
still did.
And these, you know, what I washearing from my clients was
these issues still requiredsupport, the way that I wished
I'd had when I was a youngeradult and first starting to
(04:54):
explore my sexuality.
Sonya (04:56):
That's really interesting , isn't it?
And I would imagine, as well asall of those myths that still
exist and the topics that arestill a bit taboo and not spoken
about and addressed, there'salso, for the younger
generations, that added layer ofsocial media and digital porn
and all of that sort of thing.
It must be a really complexworld for the younger
generations that are comingthrough in that many respects,
(05:17):
but they're not who we're hereto talk about today.
From what I've gathered, youreally are passionate about
communication, desire, beingable to communicate in a way
where that desire is satisfied.
So how about you kick us offwith why sexual communication is
so difficult?
You know, I sit here as a55-year-old woman thinking when
(05:37):
you were saying the youngergeneration are still working
their way through some of thesemyths I kind of go, I'm 55, you
know, I've been having sex nowfor probably 40 odd years.
There are still things that Ifeel now that I wouldn't go and
ask for help around because Ikind of go, I'm 55.
I should not have sorted thisstuff out by myself.
(05:59):
This feels a little bit sillyfor me to go and ask questions
about now.
Does that make sense?
Laura (06:04):
It makes so much sense.
I really appreciate you sharingthat because you are definitely
not alone.
When I was first gettinginterested in studying, as I
said, I was hearing fromhealthcare providers they didn't
feel confident to talk about itwith their patients so they
weren't bringing it up.
And then, certainly just likewhat you were just sharing,
individuals don't feelcomfortable to go to the
healthcare providers.
The awkwardness is palpable youwere just sharing.
(06:25):
Individuals don't feelcomfortable to go to the
healthcare providers.
The awkwardness is palpable.
But within relationships it issuch a fraught topic.
I am yet to come across a moretense and emotionally charged
topic for most couples than sex,and it is in fact, very common
for people to be having acertain amount of sex whether
that's a lot or a little and nottalking about it, and I
(06:45):
certainly have experienced thatfor most of my relationships to
be having sex and not reallytalking about the sex that we
are having.
The reason it is such a fraughttopic is that it is incredibly
high stakes.
So what I mean by that istalking about sex has some
really high risk to it in thatthere is a chance I'm going to
(07:08):
be judged, that I am going tofeel awkward or embarrassed,
that I'm going to feel ashamed,that I'm going to be rejected
and that I'm going to be hurt orhurt this other person I care
about.
So that feels pretty highstakes.
And then you overlay that withall our own stuff that we've all
got to some degree around sex.
You know our upbringing andwhether we were exposed to
(07:32):
healthy conversations about sex,which for most people was not
the case.
The fact that we still live ina very sex negative culture
where it's still pretty taboo totalk about this stuff.
There's lots of messaging we getvery frequently that there's
something about talking aboutsex that is like either not okay
, like not allowed or high risk.
You know, as I said before,high stakes.
(07:53):
So it feels it feels reallyscary and that really activates
things for people in their body.
I mean, I felt it.
I'm sure you have.
I can think of conversationsI've had in my own relationships
where you feel that activationof anxiety and stress just flood
through your system as you goto have one of these
conversations.
So I understand why peoplewouldn't.
I understand the avoidance.
Sonya (08:15):
Yeah.
So how do you?
Because I very much relate tothat.
You know I am a product of aCatholic schooling system.
I am a product of a generationwhere I can vividly remember.
So two things.
First of all, my parents nevershowed any, really any physical,
actual emotions towards eachother in front of us as children
(08:36):
.
There was never any holdinghands, no cuddling, no, nothing.
And then I can remember as ateenager starting to watch, you
know, shows where my mum mightwalk into the room and you'd be
watching, I don't know, prettyin Pink or something like that,
and that you know the maincharacters would be pashing on
screen and my mother would begoing.
It's disgusting, and there wasthis real kind of like, I guess
(08:56):
almost revulsion to the factthat these people were sexually
attracted to each other, thatthat was being depicted on
screen, and so I very muchrelate to what you're talking
about from the generation that Icame from and the upbringing
that I had.
So how do you break throughthat high risk and that feeling
of being judged or that this isnot a topic that I should be
(09:19):
having, you know, bringing up inconversation?
Laura (09:22):
Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that too, like
those experiences you had whenyou you were younger.
I've got those too.
I remember being activelydiscouraged from talking about
certain things or watchingcertain things.
Um, and I really acknowledgehow, uh how close shame is to so
many people's experiences ofsex, because shame refers to
(09:44):
those very tender spots that weall have that when they're
touched it feels like the mostpainful bruise you've ever had,
because it's those, it's thoseparts of ourselves where we feel
like we're not okay as we are,like I'm not enough, I'm
defective in some way.
It's very painful stuff andthat activates for a lot of
people with sex.
Most, most people have hadexperiences where they
(10:06):
experienced some of those risksI talked about before.
You know judgment or rejectionor awkwardness, so it's a really
real risk for people.
You know your question abouthow do you break through it.
I actually help my own clientsdo this by first understanding
the shame and the tender spotsthey have around this topic and
(10:27):
how that was never theirs in thefirst place, and what I mean by
that is that that shame hascome from to your example,
parents and their own stuff, andtheir own upbringing and the
cultural context within which weexist, and social media and
patriarchy and all these othersystems that exist to limit our
(10:48):
freedom to experience andexpress our sexuality.
So I think the first step isbeing really willing to
understand and unpack the shamethat we carry and how that's not
ours.
One of the really practicalexercises I get people to do
that can be really helpful is tostart to examine what are the
scripts I have around.
Sex Scripts are the storiesthat we kind of have told
(11:11):
ourselves and they're kind ofrunning in the background for
all of us and we all have them.
But the really exciting news isthat we can, once we know what
ours are, we can actually startto like, unlearn them and
relearn new ones.
So some of the most commonsexual scripts that I hear for
women, particularly women whohave sex with men, are things
like men are always up for sex,or sex is over when the man is
(11:35):
finished, or sex is aperformance, like sex is
something to perform well or begood at, like.
These are the kinds of scriptsa lot of us internalize when we
first started having sex.
I know I did and it takes real,it takes work and intentional
focus to know what they are,start to unlearn them and start
to learn some new ideas aboutourselves and our sexuality.
(11:57):
So I think that's the start.
Sonya (11:59):
Yeah, and that's.
That's a whole conversation Ican imagine having in a session.
That would require lots ofunpacking and lots of work.
But you know, as you say, thatability to be able to
communicate within ourrelationships is what is going
to lead us to actually seekingor achieving the desire that you
(12:23):
know we all deserve and that weall want at the end of the day.
So how does that play out then?
In couples and not evenlong-term couples, like
obviously I am, but somebodyperhaps that's in a new
relationship, there are a lot ofpeople at this midlife age that
find themselves in newrelationships.
Relationships change forvarious reasons, some end up for
(12:45):
various reasons, and then wefind ourselves out in that whole
dating pool again.
How does it become?
I think the term that you useis a multi-directional
conversation.
Laura (12:55):
Yeah, I think it's really important to find out if we
don't already know.
Find out if you're in arelationship with someone, no
matter what stage it's at.
Find out if it's one you'venever had before and you're
(13:21):
nervous.
I actually think that initialconversation is just a checking
for willingness.
It's not a raising of issues ortrying to solve problems.
It's not a hey, we've beentogether for 10 years and I want
to suddenly talk about our sexlife, because that sounds
terrifying.
It's really just a checking forwillingness along the lines of
hey, I and you might even sayhey.
I was listening to this podcastor I read this article today
(13:44):
and I've been thinking about thefact that I want us to have sex
together for quite a long timeto come and I really care about
us both having a greatexperience with our sexuality
and I think that would be reallynice for us to be nurturing and
prioritizing and talking aboutmore.
Are you up for that?
And finding out if they're evenup for that.
And that's it for the initialconversation.
(14:05):
That's actually it.
So that initial conversation isjust a checking for openness
and a great okay, you're up forit?
Fantastic, we'll make sure tokeep that conversation going,
right.
So that's the firstconversation.
I think there is this pressuresometimes to imagine that sexual
communication is a place wherewe're like raising issues.
I would like less of this, moreof this.
I'm not happy with this.
It's just a fluid, dynamic,ongoing conversation.
(14:29):
The power of that, by the way,is that that significantly
reduces that high stakes feelingwe were talking about before.
I'm in a relationship currentlywhere we talk about sex or our
sexual connection in somecapacity every single day.
I imagine that sounds quitefull on.
I think it would have to me upuntil a couple of years ago, but
I really understand now thatwhen I say that, that doesn't
(14:51):
mean we're sitting down andhaving emotionally charged, late
and heavy conversation.
That's about us just engagingwith each other in an erotic or
sexual or sensual way, whichcould be flirtation or
expressing attraction orexpressing desire or talking
about an old memory or justtouching each other.
It's just about nurturing thatpart of our relationship in some
(15:13):
way in a fluid, ongoingcapacity.
Sonya (15:16):
Yeah, that's really cool and thank you for sharing that
my reaction to you saying thatwas like, wow, as soon as I kind
of had that reaction, and thenyou were like, but that doesn't
mean it's a heavy ladenconversation, it could just be
an act of flirtation, it couldbe.
You know, that's like actually.
Yeah, and that kind of takes meback to those very early years
of our relationship when we werelike, I mean, obviously young,
(15:38):
but we were super flirtatiousand we were super into each
other and you did have thosedaily kind of interactions that
were much more, I guess,sexually charged than when
you're, you know, 35 years downthe track and you know you're
plodding along through life.
One of the other areas that I'mreally interested in hearing a
little bit more from you aboutand it's something that I
touched on a long time ago whenI had my first conversation with
(16:01):
Dr Kelly Casperson, who's anAmerican urologist and she does
a lot of work on female sexualhealth, and she was the first
one that introduced me to theidea of the difference between
spontaneous and responsivedesire and the reason I bring it
up, and you and I did have achat beforehand and this was one
of the things we were going totalk about is that that changes
(16:24):
over time, doesn't it?
And particularly when women arein this midlife kind of
transitional phase of life,hormones are a little bit
haywire.
We all know that one of thesymptoms of perimenopause and
postmenopausally can be a lossof libido, along with vaginal
changes and things like that.
So I feel like hand in handwith those changes goes that
(16:46):
kind of natural spontaneousdesire.
So if you are someone thatfeels like you've lost that as a
result of everything that'sgoing on, can you explain the
difference then between havingthat spontaneous desire and
having a more responsive desire?
Laura (17:02):
so I'm such a huge fan of these concepts of spontaneous
and responsive desire becausethey really expand our
understanding of what desire isnow.
Desire is our want and wish forsex, right, and culturally
we're pretty obsessed withdesire, like we are.
It's actually the number onereason people seek sex therapy.
People are so concerned withhow much they want sex, right.
(17:25):
So I just wanted to kind ofI'll come back to that
Spontaneous desire is.
This is what we think of whenwe think of spontaneous, of what
we think of desire.
It's that I'm walking aroundduring the day and suddenly I
just kind of feel like it.
It's kind of like that.
It just strikes me, and ifyou've typically experienced
your desire in this way, it canbe quite a shock and quite scary
(17:48):
if it changes right.
So I really acknowledge that ifyou are someone who has
experienced spontaneous desirewhich you probably have at some
point in your life, but maybenot if that changes to something
more responsive that can bequite a shock.
Responsive desire is when desirefor sex or want for sex shows
up when it's got something torespond to right.
(18:08):
So it might not strike you outof thin air, but when you do the
things that your body kind oflikes right which could be, you
know, being in a beautiful warmshower with your partner and
touching each other or gettinginto bed together and your naked
bodies are cuddling and maybethey're like stroking you and
you're like, oh yeah, now I kindof feel like it.
I hadn't given it a thought allday and I thought I couldn't be
(18:29):
bothered, but now I kind offeel like something.
So that is spontaneous andresponsive desire.
For women, 75% of their desireexperiences will be responsive
over the course of their life.
So we may as well get used tothe idea that most of the time
(18:52):
our desire for sex will onlyshow up when it's got a reason
to, it's got something torespond to right.
And actually for men it's 45%,so it's still pretty significant
.
So about half the time for men,desire will only show up when
it's got something to show upfor.
So I really like to help peopleto adjust their expectations
around what desire for sex mightfeel like it might not show up
(19:16):
out of thin air and, as I saidbefore, if it has before, that's
why people get so concernedwith this loss of libido, this
loss of thin air and, as I saidbefore, if it has before, that's
why people get so concernedwith this loss of libido, this
loss of sexual desire.
It's not lost, it's justchanged.
It's just changed and I reallytry to get people to bring some
compassion to that, that likethat's okay if it's changed, and
(19:36):
bring some curiosity to that.
This idea of adjustingexpectations is crucial,
particularly when it comes toour sexuality across the
lifespan, because not only doesour experience of desire change,
but our experience of oursexuality changes.
And that's where curiosity canbe so powerful, because if
(19:57):
there's something that used towork for you and you used to be
into and now it doesn't work somuch, I really understand why
that can be distressing forpeople.
But this is where I invitecuriosity, because I kind of go
okay, if something's not quitedoing it for you the way that it
used to, how interesting andexciting, because I wonder what
could now do it for you, whatcould now be of appeal to your
(20:19):
body that maybe wasn't before,like, maybe there's something
that you haven't tried beforebecause you thought you went
into, that you're open to tryingnow.
Or maybe there's something thatyour body didn't respond to
that much before, but maybe itwill now because your body's
different, because our bodiesare always changing.
So this idea of adjusting ourexpectations and leading with
curiosity and expansion is sucha powerful tool in our sexuality
(20:41):
.
Sonya (20:42):
Yeah, that's really interesting and I love that you
talk about there how to not lookat a loss of libido as a loss.
But it is actually just achange and to be expected.
Really, in many ways, when weare going through such a period
of change, with our hormonesbeing all over the place, you
know we see so many physicalchanges.
We know that we are also havingemotional, and you know, and
(21:05):
cognitive changes.
Then libido as well is justanother one of those changes
that I think you're right.
We've really hung this kind ofnegative connotation on it
through this constant overuse ofthe term.
It's a loss of libido.
Yeah, absolutely on it.
Through this constant overuseof the term it's a loss of
libido, because when you losesomething, you know you think
you're not going to get it back.
Laura (21:26):
Yeah, yes, and that's really scary for people If you
you know if your sexuality andyour sexual connection has been
a big part of your life and yourrelationship and then you feel
like it's lost.
That's terrifying for peopleand I really understand that and
I really.
That's why I'm so concernedwith this language of lost
libido and why I'm alsoconcerned with this focus on
(21:49):
desire more broadly.
As I said before, it's one ofthe most common reasons people
seek sex therapy, particularlymismatched desire or mismatched
libido in a relationship, and Iam firmly of the view here that
we all have mismatched desire.
What on earth is perfectlymatched desire to people wanting
the exact same kind of sex atthe exact same time every day
(22:11):
for the rest of their lives?
That is not going to happen.
Sonya (22:14):
No, that sounds very unattainable.
Laura (22:16):
Yes, absolutely so.
Instead, what we do, just likewe do in all areas of our life,
is negotiate, and you already dothis with your partners.
You already negotiate where youlive and what couch you buy,
and what you have for dinner andwhere kids go to school, and
what you're going to do on theweekend.
So you're already negotiatingand you're already both making
the best of what you can inthose situations Like, okay, I
(22:41):
kind of wanted a bigger couch,but this couch is still pretty
nice and I'll just I'll justmake sure I get the best spot on
the couch.
And so we're already we'realready bringing these
negotiation skills and we can dothat to our sex lives too.
We don't have to worry aboutbeing perfectly matched with our
partner all the time, but itcan be like, okay, what, what am
I up for?
What can I say yes to?
And that idea of, again,expansion and expansion of our
(23:05):
sexual menu is going to is goingto be key to experiencing our
sexuality positively across thelifespan.
Cause I'm going to, I'm goingto say something that I think is
going to be like shocking forpeople to hear it's shocking for
my friends when I say it whichis that, in some form or another
.
I have sex in my currentrelationship every single day,
(23:26):
but my definition of what sex isis really broad.
Sonya (23:29):
Yeah.
Laura (23:30):
It is very rarely anything penetrative actually,
but our cultural idea of sex isvery penetrative,
heteronormative narrow.
Sonya (23:41):
I do.
That's what you were going tosay.
We have so much associationwith sex, meaning penetration.
Yeah, yes, but it's great tohear actually that's not the
case.
Laura (23:52):
Yeah absolutely it's not, and some helpful language here
might be around moving away fromhaving sex to language like
being in a sexual space togetheror being in an erotic space
together.
So when I say to you my partnerand I spend time sexually
connecting every day, there's amillion things that fall into
(24:13):
that category for us.
That does not mean we're havinglike three hours of acrobatic
something or like, of course not.
We've both got like.
We've got like jobs.
My partner gets up for workvery early, like that is not
going to happen, right, but wedo.
We do something.
We do something.
It might be, you know, we havelike a spicy playlist that we
(24:35):
put on at night before we go tosleep and we might kiss and
cuddle and listen to that forlike a couple of songs and then
we go to sleep.
So we spend time nurturing thatpart of our relationship every
day and the really cool partabout that is that there's we
can usually together as Imentioned before about
negotiation we can usually findsomething we both want to say
yes to and that our love,responsive desire will show up
(24:58):
for.
Sonya (24:59):
Yeah, yeah Now.
So I think that leads us nicelyinto talking about what some of
the nonverbal forms of sexualcommunication are, because
that's what you've pretty muchjust expressed, and we've talked
a lot about communicating andnegotiating, but what are some
of the nonverbal forms ofcommunication when it comes to
(25:20):
being sexual?
Laura (25:21):
There is a really important part of any sexual
interaction that occurs betweenpeople who are having sex,
whether they've known each otherfor a couple of hours or many
decades, and that is the powerof attunement.
And attunement can only beachieved when we're able to be
as present as possible, aspresent as we can be, for an
(25:41):
interaction, and that's when wewill be able to both give and
receive nonverbal indications,feedback and consent Right.
So I want to talk about whatsome of those are.
One of the ways, though, that Iwant to kind of help people
think about this before I givesome examples, though, is an
exercise I sometimes do with myclients who are young adults and
(26:05):
who are getting ready to maybeyou know start to have sex for
the first time, is they have apretty clear understanding of
consent.
But sometimes I will say to myyoung clients how would you know
if somebody was saying yesverbally, but you had a gut
feeling?
The answer was really no.
How would you know?
When you say gut feeling, howwould you know?
And, of course, they talk to meabout eye contact and facial
(26:26):
expressions and body languageand tension and energy.
So they are the lovely examplesthat I would want to share here
of nonverbal communication thatwe can pick up when we are
really present and attuned withsomeone.
You will notice things in theirbody, movements, body language,
but also body tension, in theirown energy towards you, like
(26:50):
what they do to reach for you orto not reach for you.
And if you're wondering whatthis might look like with
someone you know, like a partneryou're already with, I want you
to bring your mind to anothersensory experience that you
observe or have with yourpartner.
So an example that I sometimesthink about with my own partner
my partner surfs and it makeshim a better human when he surfs
(27:13):
.
He really needs to be in theocean as much as possible, but I
can tell when he's been for asurf, sometimes without him even
telling me, and I think aboutthat when I say that to you, I
go how can I tell?
I can tell some things in hisface and the brightness and
lightness in his face and hisenergy and his posture, and how
enthusiastic he is towards me,and the tone and pitch of his
(27:34):
voice.
As I start to unpack that, andI think of the many different
ways in which his bodycommunicates to me the aliveness
and vitality it's felt frombeing in the ocean, I can bring
that now to our sexualinteractions and go, yep, do I
sense that kind of energy fromhim or not?
Does he seem kind of lowerenergy or distant, or yeah,
(27:56):
whatever it is?
So I think that's a niceexercise for people to do is to
think about other sensoryexperiences they have with their
partner, how their partnershows them enthusiasm or not
when they're doing other thingslike a delicious meal or
something like that, and thenyou can bring those cues and
information to your sexualencounters.
Sonya (28:15):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
I like that and, yeah, drawingthat information from that, an
experience that's not related tosex you do need to be having
those non-verbal cues to knowand you need to be able to read
them, and drawing on that withyour younger patients and
consent is really reallyimportant.
(28:36):
So, yeah, I think that wasreally well explained.
Thank you, I really resonatewith that.
I think that's really cool.
I'd like to bring up a topicnow that we didn't talk about
beforehand, but I'm sure you'llbe open to it.
Yeah, cool, and if you're not,we'll just edit it out.
But I think, if we go back towhere we started, which was
(28:58):
talking about areas that aretaboo and aspects of our
sexuality that we just have kindof been, I guess, a little bit
programmed to not talk about,however, is actually from what
I've been led to believe and youcan tell me if I'm right a very
important part of our sexualityand that is masturbation.
So where does masturbation kindof fit into all of this?
Laura (29:14):
Yeah, masturbation is so important, but I actually want
to take a minute to pause onwhat that means.
Most of the time when peoplemasturbate, they're in some
pretty ingrained patterns, right.
People go straight to touchingthemselves in the same way every
time, and they usually gostraight to genitals, and
they're usually doing it Notalways, but people are usually
(29:35):
masturbating for a pretty narrowscope of reasons, right.
They're usually doing it toachieve an orgasm, and that's
usually because they are horny,tired, bored or stressed.
That's pretty much the mainreasons, right.
Partnered sex is so much morediverse than that, but
masturbation has typically, formost people, followed that very
narrow script, and most peoplemasturbate in the same ways same
(29:56):
types of stimulation, samepositions, all of that kind of
stuff.
The reason masturbation, though, is so important is because, as
we've been talking about before, about our sexuality evolving
over the lifespan, so too doesour body and our body's
responses and the things that itenjoys, the type of touch, the
(30:16):
stimulation that it enjoys, andwe are going to be able to
communicate our desires muchmore confidently if we've
explored them with ourselvesfirst.
So I'm of the view, no matterhow long you've been in a
relationship or what kind ofrelationship you're in that
masturbation has a reallyimportant role to play in our
sexuality and sexual exploration.
It is a powerful teaching tool.
(30:37):
It's so powerful.
It's one of my favorite thingsfor people to do in a new
relationship is to masturbatetogether.
Show each other what your bodylikes, how you like to be
touched and what kind ofpressure and what kind of
stimulation.
But I also encourage people to.
You know, I've said the wordexpand a lot today, but for good
reason.
Expand the idea of whatmasturbation means.
(30:59):
Imagine what could happen if itwasn't straight to the genitals
or if you took orgasm off thetable and if the idea was I'm
going to touch myself all overmy body in lots of different
ways with different kinds ofpressure and stimulation, and
the goal is not orgasm.
The goal is exploration, right,or the goal is discovery, goal
(31:19):
is learning, just to kind of see.
Because the really cool thingabout our brains is how
malleable and plastic they are,and most of us, because we've
masturbated probably for areally long time and in the same
ways we've laid a really strongneural pathway in our brain
about how we achieve orgasm.
Sonya (31:40):
That was something that I read recently, which was what
partly prompted me to ask youabout it, because what I read
was that when you have kind oflaid down those pathways to this
is how I achieve orgasm, thisis what my body responds to that
then when you do have partneredsex and it's different that
those pathways don't kind offire up the same and therefore
(32:02):
it can be harder to achieve thatsatisfaction.
Laura (32:05):
Yes, absolutely.
We teach ourselves how toorgasm right.
So the really cool thing is wecan always lay new neural
pathways and teach our bodiesnew things, and we are probably
capable of other types ofarousal patterns and other types
of routes to achieving orgasmthat we just haven't explored
(32:25):
yet.
And we're going to be able todo that so much more, so much
more effectively, frankly, ifwe're on our own, if you have
the opportunity to explore yourbody on your own without
thinking about the other personand their needs in that moment,
just being able to be inherentlyself-focused, to just see to
just be curious.
Sonya (32:45):
That's interesting.
Thank you for going down thatlittle pathway with me.
I thought that it was importantbecause I feel like there is a
lot of conversation in thismenopause space and the midlife
space.
There is a lot of talk aboutwhat we've already touched on
that whole terminology aroundloss of libido, and then we talk
a lot about vaginal health aswell.
Obviously there's an old theoryof use it or lose it, which
(33:09):
absolutely needs to be thrown inthe bin well and truly.
But for women that are findingthat they're having painful sex
or they're having vaginaldryness and physical symptoms
that are holding them back fromthat penetrative sex, then
masturbation probably isencouraged and actually what
this brings me back to is thisidea of having a really very
(33:33):
broad sexual menu within which,most of the time, we will find
something to say yes to.
Laura (33:40):
And previously, if you've had a narrower menu that you
and your partner have beenordering from when it comes to
sex, that means there's going tobe less to say yes to and
you're more likely to say no.
And if penetrative sex has beena really large part of your
sexual interactions and nowthat's become something that's
(34:00):
less desirable, less comfortable, less pleasurable, you might
find yourself saying no to beingsexual with your partner
because the only thing you'vegot on the menu has been
penetration.
So what we want to do is justhave more things on the menu,
more to say yes to.
And when I said before that mypartner and I spend time in a
sexual space here every day,penetration is a very, very
(34:21):
small part of our sex lives,like very small.
I think people would besurprised how little.
Between the two of us, we kindof laugh when we have
penetrative sex because we'relike this is novel.
Oh my God.
Sonya (34:32):
That is so funny.
Laura (34:33):
We really do.
We really do, and he'llprobably listen to this video.
I know he doesn't mind mesharing, but we do.
We'll be like, look at us, lookat us having like missionary
penetrative sex.
It is such, it's such a narrowpart and that doesn't mean we're
doing like wild, strange thingsotherwise.
Yeah, yeah, we're doing all theother things you think of.
It's just not a huge part andthat's because for me, I have a
(34:54):
long history of pain, vaginismus, endometriosis.
Penetrative sex for a long timeis very uncomfortable for me,
so it's just not ever been asuper, super source of pleasure.
Sonya (35:04):
Pleasure yeah.
Laura (35:05):
Yeah, so source of pleasure, pleasure, yeah, yeah.
So it's just not a huge and, oh, it's definitely not how I
achieve orgasm and that's truefor most women.
The okay, yeah, so only about avery fortunate 25 to 30 percent
of women can achieve orgasmthrough penetrative sex, so the
vast majority.
It's not going to get us there.
Sonya (35:22):
I think that brings us back to that whole societal
perception of what sex is andwhat we see played out in movies
and television shows.
And if you're not somebody thathas perhaps grown up in an
environment where sex is talkedabout in a positive and
encouraging way and you'rerelying on what you're seeing
(35:43):
played out in other mediums,then you do, I would imagine,
have this perception thatpenetrative sex is how you
achieve orgasm.
Laura (35:52):
Absolutely, and it's so not for the vast majority.
Sonya (35:56):
And also that that is the end result, that is, you know,
which I guess is also related towhat we talked about right at
the very beginning.
You mentioned that some of thestories and some of the scripts
are that the purpose of sex isfor the man to achieve his
orgasm, and he achieves hisorgasm that way.
Laura (36:14):
That way.
Yeah, that's a really importantpoint.
What you said there about thatbeing the end goal.
It's kind of like this term,foreplay, which is not a term
that I use, but that's theimplication of that word.
Right, everything else comesbefore the main event of
penetration.
Sonya (36:27):
Yeah, which is why I don't know.
It's like an entree and thenthe main meal.
Laura (36:31):
Yes, yeah, absolutely so.
This is where there's going tobe so much.
There can be so much wonderfuldiscovery and pleasure to be
found in expanding that.
Sonya (36:42):
This is awesome.
This is such a greatconversation.
Laura, let's wrap everything up.
Can you share some practicalways that couples can improve
their sexual communication, likewhat's one thing that people
can do today to improve theirsexual?
Laura (36:58):
communication with a partner.
Okay, oh, so tricky to pickjust one and like, just like,
stretch the friendship and havetwo look as you, but we have a
menu here.
Sonya (37:07):
We have a menu.
Choose from the menu.
Laura (37:10):
Love this.
Well, I know I alreadymentioned earlier about the
first conversation being just acheck for just, are we up for
this?
So one of the ways you mightlike to have that conversation,
and one of my favourite ways forbringing up topics we're
nervous to talk about, is asharing of resources rather than
a direct conversation.
So we're nervous to talk aboutis a sharing of resources rather
than a direct conversation.
So listen to this podcast today.
I'd love for you to listen toit and let me know what you
(37:31):
think.
Or I share a video, or I.
You know.
Sometimes people communicatewith each other by sharing funny
videos from online and it'skind of like, well, this is me
and like, well, yep, that's whatit's like to be in a
relationship with you and itseems kind of lighthearted.
But it's still communication.
It's still sort of sharing ourexperiences, being seen, being
(37:52):
understood.
So I'm a huge fan of sharingresources like TV shows, blogs,
videos, articles, podcasts, toopen the door for the
conversation in a much lessthreatening way than the worst
nightmare of imagine yourpartner sitting down, turning
the tv off, turning to you andbeing like I need to talk to you
(38:14):
about our sex life, like I canfeel that in my own body you
would literally just like what,what to?
Sonya (38:20):
to just swallow you and immediately.
Laura (38:23):
I can't think of anything worse.
So that is not.
I think that's what sometimeswe think when we think of
communication.
But that's not so.
That is one of my favorite tipsis the sharing of resources.
My other favorite tip is thevalue of curiosity and
validation in our communication.
If we can feel our own stuffstart to get activated in our
(38:44):
body, because what happens forus like basic kind of fight or
flight stuff, if I start to feelanxious or under attack or
scared or threatened or whateverit is, I will move to defend
myself.
I'll move to safety seekingbehaviors to defend myself.
Safety seeking behaviors areusually not very helpful.
They're things like lashing out, starting a fight, deflecting,
(39:05):
making a joke shutting down.
Sonya (39:08):
Don't touch me.
Laura (39:09):
Yeah, absolutely that's what we will move to for safety
seeking If we can replace safetyseeking with curiosity and
validation.
So validation looks like.
Thank you for telling me, andthis makes sense to me when
you've told me more about yourexperience.
This makes sense to me, andcuriosity is that warm, you know
, know, inquiring.
What's that like for you?
(39:29):
What does that bring up for you?
What does that remind you of?
Tell me more about that, if wecan use those kinds of
strategies in our conversationrather than going to that
defensiveness, safety seekingstuff.
We can't promise much, but Ican tell you we significantly
increase the odds of thatconversation going in a
direction.
So that is my other tip for anyodds of that conversation going
(39:50):
in a different direction.
So that is my other tip for anytype of emotional conversation,
not just sex, but moving tothose behaviors like curiosity
and validation.
Sonya (39:57):
Rather, than those same strategies when we start to face
it.
Amazing, laura.
Thank you so so much for yourtime today.
I truly hope that thisconversation lands with as many
people as possible that reallyresonate with this shifting time
in life, but that potentiallyalso reflects into shifting
relationship with our bodies,relationship with our partners.
Transitioning through intomenopause does not mean that you
(40:18):
have to leave your sex lifebehind.
Laura (40:22):
Absolutely not.
I think it's a very excitingtime for our sexuality.
We just need these kinds oftools and support to help us
through it.
So thank you so much for havingme.
Sonya (40:29):
It's been so fun, my absolute pleasure.
And, laura, I will link throughto your website in my show
notes so that if anybody isinterested in perhaps learning
more about what you do or evenpotentially working with you,
they can find those details inthe website.
Laura, have an amazing day youtoo.
Thank you, sonia.
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