May 22, 2025 • 33 mins
A captivating conversation between Sonya and Jo explores the rapidly evolving landscape of menopause healthcare, research, and politics in Australia.
In this episode we begin by unpacking the viral podcast between Dr. Rachel Rubin and Dr. Peter Attia – a two-and-a-half hour deep dive into menopause, vaginal health and GSM that's being celebrated as "the best podcast that has been recorded to date on this topic." What makes it exceptional isn't just the content but the peer-to-peer dynamic between two medical professionals sharing both evidence-based information and clinical experience.
The conversation takes a powerful turn when journalist Jamila Rizvi's health journey is discussed. At just 31, a missed period led to the discovery of a rare brain tumour affecting her hormone production – a sobering reminder that health changes should never be dismissed without proper investigation.
This naturally leads us to a discussion of exciting new research published in Clinical Endocrinology that examines the relationship between sex hormones and dementia risk.
Politics takes centre stage as we celebrate Australia's increasingly female Parliament, with two major parties now led by women and gender equality achieved in the Labor cabinet. The shift in ministerial portfolios sees Rebecca White stepping into the Assistant Minister for Health role.
We wrap up with news of an Australian company developing the first new estrogen patch in 22 years, potentially addressing supply issues and skin irritation problems plaguing current options.
Links:
ABC Conversations with Jamila Rizvi
Dr Rachel Rubin and Dr Peter Attia Podcast - Apple Podcasts
Dr Rachel Rubin and Dr Peter Attia Podcast - YouTube
Sex Hormones and Risk of Incident Dementia in Men and Postmenopausal Women - Clinical Endocrinology Article
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sonya (00:01):
Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast.
I'm Sonia Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
(00:25):
Needs to hear them.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations, jo.
Jo (00:32):
Welcome to this week's Hot Take.
Hi, sonia, I feel like it'sbeen quite a while.
Sonya (00:40):
It has been since they called the election.
It was the last time that wehad a conversation because we
had been talking a lot about theannouncements that were being
made and the lead up to theelection being called around
women's health and funding andyeah, but that kind of.
I felt like everything kind ofpaused for a period of time
there, like not just theelection stuff but also what was
happening in our space a littlebit outside of politics.
(01:02):
I felt like there was thislittle lull, but there's been
some good stuff happening and wehave come back together to talk
it all out.
Jo (01:11):
Where do you want to start?
And there are a long list ofthings to talk about.
Sonya (01:14):
Well, don't freak everyone out, it's not that long
.
Okay, how about I give everyonea brief overview of what we're
going to talk about, so that noone does get freaked out and
think that we're here for fivehours?
Okay, so we're going to starttalking about the infamous
podcast episode that wasreleased, probably about a week
ago now, between Dr Rachel Rubinand Dr Peter Atiyah, so we're
(01:35):
going to dive into that.
We're going to talk about aninteresting fact that I learned
recently while listening to acompletely different podcast
about Jamila Rizvi, who is anAustralian journalist, so I want
to talk about her.
And then we are going to dosome political talk, because we
now know that the Labor Party isback in power, we know that
there's been some shift incabinet seats and things like
(01:57):
that, so we're going to chatthrough all of that.
How's that sound?
Sounds absolutely brilliant,all righty.
Sounds absolutely brilliant,all righty.
Let's get the ball rolling thenwith the amazing podcast that
we all learned about last weekbetween Dr Rachel Rubin who, for
anyone that's listening anddoesn't know, is a urologist,
and she is an American urologistand she sat down to talk to Dr
(02:18):
Peter Atiyah.
Now, peter Atiyah kind of sitsfor me in that bro podcasting
kind of space.
He's a medical doctor, he is anactive doctor, he sees patients
, but he is known for those big,long bro kind of fitness,
longevity, health kind ofpodcasts, and so I was really
(02:41):
surprised to see him sit downwith Rachel, really excited to
listen to it.
It's a two and a half hourpodcast, so it is much longer
than podcasts I would normallylisten to for sure.
So I broke it down.
Here's my hot tips forlistening to it Break it into
chunks, oh.
And the other thing that I did,which I've never done before,
which I think helped as well,was I actually watched the
(03:01):
YouTube version of it ratherthan listening to just the audio
, and I found that that kept memuch more engaged for a longer
period of time, watching themactually go back and forth and
have a conversation.
So the topic of the podcast wasabout predominantly menopause,
hrt, specifically vaginal health, and GSM, because Rachel being
(03:25):
a urologrologist, that's a bigpart of her field, but a lot oh
my god it was.
It was just like everythingthat you could possibly want and
need to know about menopauseand perimenopause in this one
conversation in one podcast, Iagree.
Jo (03:41):
So when I saw how long it was, I was like like gosh.
But yeah, like you, I broke itdown into a couple of different
walks with my dog and I'veactually now listened to it
twice because you get to a pointI don't know if you do, sonia
like I've been very immersed inthis space now for three years,
and then personally, before that, I was sort of like, oh, can
there be that much new in there?
(04:01):
And yeah, there's so much thatI was like, oh, I've never heard
explained like that or I tookaway new information.
It's also sparked a whole lotof curiosity.
So, you know, one of the thingsthat I think I mentioned to you
before was Rachel talks about awhole lot of MHT products which
I had never heard of and whichmade me clearly go well, they're
(04:23):
not in Australia and then whyaren't they in Australia?
And now I want to know moreabout them, and why can't
Australian women have thatbreadth of choice?
So yes, I've already starteddown a rabbit hole of like oh,
vaginal rings for MHT.
I want to know more about that.
Sonya (04:37):
Yeah, that was fascinating when she was talking
about that.
There was a piece that I reallynerded out on that like this
was a piece that I really nerdedout on that like this.
No, I don't expect anyone elseto nerd out on this, but I
absolutely did.
They were talking aboutpathology tests and particularly
when they're doing pathologytests to measure hormone levels
in the blood, and they gotreally nerdy around the
(04:58):
different serums that are usedor the different assays that are
used within different pathologytesting companies and the
impacts that they had on some ofthe molecules in the blood
which would then mask the actual, true hormone levels.
And so it was like I use thiscompany, you know, and this is
why.
And he was like, yeah, the same, I've found that that company
(05:19):
is.
And I was like, man, this isnuts that it can even come down
to and this is obviouslyAmerican information, but I'd be
keen to know what the similarsituation is here.
Jo (05:30):
It can even come down to what pathology company tested
your bloods as to the accuracyof those results yeah, that made
my brain hurt, because then Iwas like now I want to know in
Australia, are there, is theresimilar differences across lab
testing and pathology, and theygo into a lot of detail on a
couple of different things which, yeah, I really liked as well.
(05:53):
You know, I think you knoweverything about your period,
but Rachel used this really coolcar analogy to engage.
She's like Peter, I hear youknow you love cars and Formula
One and the way she described it.
I'm actually going to, you know, love cars and formula one and
um, and the way she described it.
I'm actually gonna, you know,get my daughter to listen to it
because it for me, it was theclearest description that I've
ever had of of what happens toyour estrogen levels, um, across
(06:14):
your cycle and then inperimenopause, that it basically
you, your car has run out offuel and it is, it is empty, and
it just really crystallized tome.
Oh, that explains a lot, and soI thought there was something in
it that would be very easy forif you don't have a, you know,
particularly medicalunderstanding of how it works.
(06:36):
It just it just jumped out atme as something.
Sonya (06:38):
It's a really great visual analogy, isn't it?
Yeah, and it really connectedwith him.
One of the other things that Ireally liked about listening to
the two of them have aconversation was it was two
peers.
Excuse my Kiwi accent on that,I'm not talking about fruit Two
peers speaking to each other atthe same level.
There was no fangirling orfanboying.
(07:01):
There was no.
I'm the doctor, you're just apodcast host.
There were two equals meetingto have a conversation that was
highly evidence-based, veryclinically and anecdotally
evidence-based as well, becausethey spoke a lot about well, I
see patients in my clinic andthis is how I've treated them
and this is what I've seen andthis is how I manage this type
(07:23):
of patient.
Just the two of them together.
I got so much more than thisthan I ever could have expected
to.
Jo (07:30):
No, no, I'm the same, and I've actually sent it to
everyone in my network todaysaying you have to listen.
Sonya (07:37):
Yeah, and I did too.
I think I actually even wentout on a limb and did a social
media story where I just saidthis is the best podcast that
has been recorded to date onthis topic.
Jo (07:50):
And it's also very accessible.
In that, Rachel, just I mean Iguess Peter does as well I've
never listened to one of hispodcasts before, but it is just
very.
You don't realise that you'relistening to something that's
over two hours because you're soengaged in the conversation.
It's medical but notmedicalized, so you're sort of
like wanting to know where it'sgoing to go next and what
(08:11):
they're going to talk about, andit just feels like a
conversation amongst friendsyeah, a hundred percent.
Sonya (08:16):
And I actually had coffee with a good friend of mine
who's a little bit of a mentorin the business space as well as
he's very invested in healthand women's health A guy in his
late forties and the first thinghe said to me was have you
listened to the Rachel Rubin,peter Atiyah podcast?
I was like, yeah, what did youthink?
He was like the best, the best.
(08:37):
And I was like, okay, cool.
Well, if it's connecting withhim and it's connected with us
in the same way, that says a lot.
Jo (08:45):
Yeah, I agree, so you can connect it in the show notes.
Sonya (08:49):
Show notes 100%.
I'll put the link to theYouTube version and to an audio
version so that people can pickand choose which one they want.
Jo (08:56):
That sounds great.
Now you were telling me aboutanother excellent podcast.
Sonya (09:01):
As a podcaster, I listen to lots of podcasts and lots of
variety of podcasts, and one ofmy kind of go-tos when I'm
driving in the car actuallyoften is Conversations, which is
an ABC-based podcast and it'svery much storytelling.
They were interviewing JamilaRizvi who, for anybody that
doesn't know, jamila is in herearly 30s.
She is a renowned Australianjournalist.
(09:23):
Her early 30s she is a renownedAustralian journalist.
When she was 31, she was a newmum, so she was postnatal.
She kind of got the sense thatsomething was kind of off in her
health.
Now this is the bit that reallypiqued my interest.
She missed a period which forher, was very unusual and just
on top of kind of what else wasgoing on for her health-wise was
enough to send her off to theGP practice to have a bit of a
(09:46):
check-up and check in with herGP.
I'm going to go out on a limbhere and assume that she had a
really great GP who went okay,cool, this is not normal for you
, this is not just a new mumthing, let's see what's going on
and sent her off for a wholebarrage of tests.
One of the things that cameback in that testing was that
her hormones were suppressed, soher estrogen progesterone were
(10:10):
suppressed.
She literally kind of was likesitting at zero, which explains
no period, but what her ultimatediagnosis was that she had this
very rare brain tumor and itwas the fact of where the tumor
was growing in her brain thatwas impacting the release of her
hormones.
So, first of all, fantasticepisode.
(10:32):
Go and listen to it.
She's amazing.
She's actually just alsoco-published a book with Rosie
Waterland which is called BrokenBrains.
Because they were good friends,they have different stories
about their brains, but they'vebrought them together into this
book.
Go, have a listen to the podcast, because it's A it's just a
fascinating story, but B for meit was just this really simple
reminder that a missed periodisn't just going to be something
(10:57):
that you should put down to.
It's perimenopause or oh, I'm anew mom.
Any change in our health that'sout of the ordinary must be
checked, because there are amyriad of reasons as to why
something like that might happenand you kind of think, gosh,
imagine if she had just put thatdown to.
(11:17):
I've heard all this talk aboutperimenopause.
It must just be something likethat, so I'm not going to go and
worry about it that she didtake herself off to the and
worry about it.
You know that she did takeherself off to the GP and have
that checked.
So my takeaway from thatconversation for everyone
listening is any change thatyou're experiencing that's not
normal.
Please get it checked out yeah,that sounds really interesting.
Jo (11:37):
um, and I have noticed her book um come up in my feed and
have been wanting to have a lookat that, but I know I hadn't
realized that's how she learnedabout her diagnosis was through
a missed period, but it's likeit's quite mind blowing to think
about that.
Sonya (11:48):
It really is.
Jo (11:49):
Something so simple was the symptom of something so severe
yeah, well, I had something Iwanted to mention, um, but you
know I haven't done a deep diveon it yet.
Um, but it has come up in myfeed over the last uh 24 to 48
hours.
Um, but there's been an articleum published in clinical
endocrinology, um on sexhormones and risk of incident
(12:13):
dementia in men andpost-menopausal women.
Um, and this sparked mycuriosity because obviously in
the menopause space there is alot of discussion about what
impact sex hormones may or maynot have on cognition and brain
health in later life.
And this study is superfascinating because it took data
from the UK Biobank.
(12:34):
It's like 300,000 women and menthat they've actually yeah, it
was a huge cohort.
Sonya (12:40):
And that was the thing that really caught my eye, when
I looked at the paper as well,was this isn't one of those
studies.
That's just we took 500 people.
This is a huge cohort.
And the other thing that Inoted, too is, yes, they use the
UK Biobank their cohort source.
It's a Chinese study.
This is a study out of China.
Jo (13:01):
Yeah, I'd noticed that as well, and all the authors are
based in universities in China.
But basically the conclusion isthat their findings revealed
that lower free testosteroneconcentrations do seem to be
associated with higher incidenceof all-cause dementia and
Alzheimer's disease andobviously encouraging further
(13:22):
studies to determine if there'scausality.
But it was really interesting.
I sent it to my mother-in-law,dr Linda Thompson, who has a PhD
in biology, because I often gether to read papers with her PhD
hat on, and she also flagged areally interesting point that
hadn't jumped out at me at thestart.
But when you look at the age ofthe participants, they followed
(13:43):
them for 12 years during thisstudy, which is quite amazing.
But they started off.
I think the women were almost60, the mean age, and the men
were a bit younger, they weremore like 56.
But which actually means thatat the end of the 12 years
either cohort of age was thatold, and she pointed out that
(14:05):
often that is roughly the ageswhen you might start to see um,
any sort of alzheimer's um ordementia um, and so it'd be
interesting to see you know inanother it's ongoing, you know?
Sonya (14:17):
yeah, are they continuing to follow them?
Jo (14:20):
whether that had changed.
But yeah, I really fascinating,especially given we've heard
quite a bit about the thinkingabout estrogen and its impact on
the brain, but not so muchabout testosterone.
I think we'll probably see morestudies looking at this in the
future, which is really exciting.
Anything that, anything thatcould potentially have a
positive impact on reducingdementia risk, is pretty
(14:43):
exciting.
Sonya (14:43):
Oh, 100% the other thing that I liked about it too.
When I took a very brief lookat it, they did note who had
been on MHT at the time of doingthe baseline testing and who
hadn't.
So that's also reflected in,I'm assuming, if you dig into
the more nuanced results.
If we can note who had takenMHT and marry that up with some
(15:04):
of the results, I think that'sso incredibly helpful and
beneficial.
Jo (15:08):
Oh, I'm going to have another look at that and get
Linda to have another look atthat as well.
Excellent, another job for.
Sonya (15:13):
Linda, All right.
So the other thing we want totalk about and we will probably
dive into this a little bitdeeper because it is a bit of a
passion project for both of us,and that is where the political
landscape lies now we'repost-election, Specifically in
relation to a whole bunch ofthose promises.
We had the outcomes of theSenate inquiry and then we had a
(15:35):
whole bunch of promises thatwere made, big dollar figures
that were thrown around.
I interviewed Jed Carney todiscuss, you know, how that was
going to be spent and all thebreakdown of that.
How about a bit of an update onwhere we sit now, post-election
?
I know.
Jo (15:50):
It's sort of like where to start.
So very exciting.
There are even more women inparliament after this election
than there were for the recordbreaking parliament before that.
Sonya (16:02):
But also two party leaders are now female, whether
they were parties that you votedfor or not.
The fact that we have, of thethree major parties, that two of
those parties are now led bywomen, and women that fall into
our demographic.
Jo (16:20):
Yes, I know, and the beautiful Larissa Waters I know.
I mean that was very excitingto see Senator Waters become the
leader of the Greens.
Obviously that was as a resultof Adam Bandt losing his seat in
Melbourne, which was a bit of asurprise loss and a real
(16:40):
disappointment for the Greens.
But interestingly both Adam andPeter Dutton, who also lost his
seat on election night, bothlost to women standing for the
first time.
So you know that amount of newfemale candidates has meant that
the Labor caucus is nowdominated by women and the Labor
(17:02):
cabinet is now gender equal,which goes to show over the
years, especially maybe frommore conservative sides of
politics, there's been a lot ofnegativity around the quota
system that was introduced, Ithink around 1994.
But I think what we're seeingnow is that that has really paid
off and we have a parliamentthat is gender equal.
(17:24):
We saw in the lastparliamentary term that having
gender equality does reallydeliver for women and for a lot
of the issues that are reallyimportant to women and families.
You know we saw improvements inpay conditions for workers,
like in childcare and aged care.
You know we saw betterchildcare policies.
(17:45):
We saw all the women's health.
You know initiatives, thecreation of the National Women's
Health Advisory Council.
So when you have that kind ofrepresentation, it does mean
that the issues that areimportant to 51% of the
population are more likely toget a greater hearing.
I was interested and pleased tosee that the Liberal Party
(18:08):
elected Susan Lay as their newleader.
With Dutton's defeat, a part ofme is a little bit nervous that
look, I don't think we'resaying anything that hasn't
already been said.
The Liberal Party gotabsolutely smashed in the
election and we don't need to gointo all the reasons why, but I
suspect that their lack ofwomen candidates definitely
(18:31):
played a role in that.
So the fact that they've nowgot a female leader I think is
really exciting.
But I am a little concernedthat you know, susan has been
given a glass cliff, animpossible challenge.
It's going to be very hard torebuild.
Sonya (18:48):
And look, you're right.
There has been a lot of talk inthe media as well about the
glass cliff, and it'sinteresting because it's not
something that I've seen spokenabout so openly in the media
before the glass cliff.
I don't think everyone knowswhat it means, and if you are
intrigued as to what a glasscliff is, please go Google it
because you will be fascinated.
I really hope it's not.
I really, really hope that thisis the opportunity for a female
(19:11):
leader in Australia to showthat they have what it takes to
lead a party and have longevityin that role and be respected by
the media, the opposition.
Unfortunately, the onlybenchmark that we have for that
in Australia is how JuliaGillard was treated, which was
absolutely appalling anddisgraceful, and I hope that we
(19:34):
never, ever see a repeat of that, yeah, so I really hope it's
not a glass cliff.
I hope that we really do seesomeone step into this and be
given the opportunity to lead.
Jo (19:44):
Yeah, exactly Me too.
Which brings us to, I guess,the portfolios that we are
passionate about.
So a lot of the ministers kepttheir portfolios, which I think
will allow for a lot ofstability in this next year
following the election.
But we saw a small change in aminister that I think was close
to everyone's heart in thisspace, with Jed being moved to a
(20:07):
new portfolio, which they arevery lucky to have, her, and I
think she will.
Sonya (20:11):
And it's an important portfolio as well.
It is an area that needssomeone like Jed.
I think I'm excited to see whatshe does.
Violence, domestic violence,the killing of women let's be
completely honest is asignificant issue that needs to
be addressed at a politicallevel, and I really, really hope
that Jed can turn things aroundand make a difference in this
(20:33):
space, but I'm brokenheartedthat she's left us.
Jo (20:37):
Exactly.
She did her Assistant Ministerof Health job so well.
She's been rewarded with aneven more challenging portfolio.
So we wish you all the luck,deb, and hope you have the same
success in that portfolio.
But it means that we will havea new Assistant Minister for
Health and that is Rebecca White, who is a first-time Federal
(20:58):
Minister from Tasmania and shelooks super energetic and keen,
judging by what I've seen on herInsta so far.
She doesn't have a backgroundin health, which is something
that Jed did bring to the role,but I think that she's got a lot
of experience in state politicsand this is her first time
being in a federal seat.
So I'm putting money on she'sgoing to be super enthusiastic,
(21:22):
super keen to make a mark andvery keen to, I guess, progress
all of the work that Jed and thegovernment had started in their
last term.
And I think one of the thingsthat is exciting me a little is,
with Labor having control ofthe House of Representatives and
having such a decisive win interms of the seats that they now
(21:44):
have, that they can be reallybrave and bold with a lot of
policy and keep pushing forwardin this space.
So I think that'll be really anopportunity for all the people
that we work with and talk toand all the advocates to reach
out to Rebecca and Mark andcontinue to raise the issues
that are really important to usand follow up on those promises
(22:06):
I guess were made on the 9th ofFebruary.
And I'm particularly keen tofollow up on the commentary that
Mark made in Feb around and Ithink we've discussed it before,
sonia like around the PBS andmaking sure it really works for
women, because there's a lot ofgender inequity in the drugs
that are on the PBS.
And then, like we justmentioned with the Rachel Rubin
podcast, there's heaps of drugsout there in the world that
(22:28):
aren't even in Australia, sosomeone please bring them in.
Yeah, so I'm feeling superexcited.
What were your thoughts?
Sonya (22:35):
Yeah, same, very similar to you.
As I said, heartbreaking to seejed leave an area where she was
making such a huge difference.
But I have, I have gone anddone a little bit of online
stalking of rebecca as well andshe certainly appears to be, as
you said, some she's.
You know she's.
She's younger, she's got a lotof energy, she seems to be very
(22:56):
smart, very well-spoken and verywell regarded and respected in
Tasmania.
So I'm really interested tohear the response to those
promises that were made onFebruary 9th.
You know, yes, the PBS stuff isreally important, but there was
a whole lot of other stuff thatwas promised alongside that.
The community educationcampaign.
(23:20):
I think there's a lot to waitand see, but I'm excited for
where we're headed.
Jo (23:24):
And the other thing that's just occurred to me that is also
exciting about her portfolio isand something different from
Jed is she's also being giventhe Assistant Minister for Women
portfolio, so she'll be workingto Minister Butler and Minister
Gallagher on women and health,so it's the first time those two
(23:46):
things have been broughttogether, so I think that'll be
a really interesting combination.
And she's also the AssistantMinister for Indigenous Health
as well.
Sonya (23:54):
I think the three do go really well together in this
current climate that we have inthe space that you and I work in
, this current climate that wehave in the space that you and I
work in.
But even if we look outside ofother areas of women's health
endometriosis and period painand heavy menstrual bleeding and
all the aspects of women'shealth that deserve so much
support they need even more inthe Indigenous space, and I'm
(24:15):
excited to announce actually,let's talk about this for just a
moment and I'm excited toannounce actually let's talk
about this for just a moment Iam interviewing next week
Professor Odette Best for theDear Menopause podcast to talk
about the specifics intoIndigenous women's health,
particularly when it comes tomenopause and midlife health and
the research that she's beeninvolved in.
So you know, I think that's anarea we don't talk about enough.
Jo (24:37):
I mean I was actually just about to bring up Professor Best
that is hilarious straightminds because I believe that she
had applied for an MRFF lastyear specifically wanting to do
a deep dive research piece intoIndigenous women and the
menopause transition, becausethere isn't any data.
I remember seeing her speak atthe so Hot Right Now medical
(25:01):
conference in Sydney in Marchand I mean her presentation was
just like a punch in the guts interms of the lack of
information and data.
Sonya (25:12):
I'm interviewing her next week.
Jo (25:14):
It'll be a couple of weeks before the podcast episode drops
, but, yeah, really excited tobe talking to her next week and
you've actually made me think ofsomething else which we haven't
discussed whether we're goingto discuss it, so I'm just going
to throw it out there.
Sonia, I have very mixedemotions about the announcement
(25:34):
of 50 million for endometriosisresearch in I think it was UNSW,
which is a huge amount of moneyand I think it really builds on
the investment that thegovernment has done into
endometriosis research over thelast few years and it's really
wonderful to see yes, there wasall the media I saw around it no
(25:55):
one was touching on the factabout where that money has come
from.
I feel that it's good to beexcited about such big
investments into women's healthresearch, but I do feel that
it's important to show thenuance and that that money has
come from a family that has madea lot of wealth from gambling
and manufacturing and sellingpokey machines globally, which
(26:17):
you know.
It made me feel uncomfortable.
Sonya (26:20):
Yeah, and it's really interesting because I had read
that headline and I got superexcited.
I sent it to our group chat youknow how do we get this for
menopause and then you camestraight back, gave me the
rundown on who the family wasand where they had made their
money and the potential PRexercise behind a big
announcement like that and howthat makes them look in the
(26:42):
public eye.
And I'm not saying that waswhat was going on, but it could
be perceived that way that Ididn't read beyond the headline
and I didn't do my due diligenceand I didn't look into who the
family was that had made thedonation.
And you're right, it doesmatter, it really does.
Yes, this is great, we need theresearch, we need big
investments like this, but Ithink sometimes it's also worth
(27:03):
just taking a little bit of adeeper dive into where that
money actually came from in thefirst place, because gambling is
an illness.
It is an illness that isperpetuated by institutions that
create the industry to startwith, like this family was
involved in it's clubs and pubsand all of those that use these
as an income source.
(27:23):
And then people lose theirlives, people lose families,
people lose an awful lot ofmoney to gambling, and it is
something that we shoulddefinitely not be putting up on
a pedestal.
Jo (27:37):
I know and it did get me thinking because I was I was
like, well, who could do thingslike a big research funding for
menopause?
And it is really hard becauseoften those who have the most
wealth tend to have gotten it by.
Uh, well, let's just say,someone might have been
exploited in that process.
You know, you think about, yeah, you think about gas.
You know it's reallycomplicated and I think it's
(27:58):
really great that australia doesneed a bit more, I think,
philanthropic endeavor.
But yeah, just, it just raisedall sorts of questions for me
and lots of complicated feelings.
Um, and it does make me like 50million is a good amount.
Like that is an amount thatwill actually have an impact.
And I think we've mentionedbefore um, the welcome leap, who
(28:18):
gave lisa musconi 50 millionfor the work that she does on
the brain and estrogen.
So these are, they're the typesof money that can actually make
.
That does it makes a difference, heaps of difference.
I think there's a goal for umrebecca white, I still want that
100 million medical researchfuture fund for menopause.
So, yes, we'll have to organiseto do a bit of advocacy on that
(28:41):
, I think, sonia, and that waythe government can fund it, yes,
and then there'll be nocomplicated feelings.
Sonya (28:48):
Exactly, Awesome, Jo.
I know there was just one othertopic you wanted to wrap us up
on today.
Let's go there.
Jo (28:55):
I did and I'm super excited about it, and some of you might
have seen that I did anInstagram and a LinkedIn post
about it.
So I'm working with thisamazing woman, riza, and her
company, l'oreal Health, and sheis working to develop the first
estrogen patch that will bedesigned and manufactured.
(29:16):
In the last I think 22 yearsit's been since there's been a
new patch and, as you know and Iknow from you know the comments
we read and get and see on thesocials.
You know patches are impossibleto get at the moment Patches
fall off.
Patches irrit.
At the moment Patches fall off,patches irritate the skin.
Risa and L'Oreal Health aretrying to address all of those
(29:38):
issues, and so we've been havingsome chats with investors and
we've got some really amazingadvice and some really helpful
suggestions and we've got apitch deck that's being tweaked
and developed.
But it is hard because, whilstRisa and the team are working on
the prototype, at the momentit's not finished.
I think there's something like3,000 polymers that could be
(29:59):
utilised.
I've been learning all sorts ofthings that I never thought I'd
learn about, so we have decidedI think we're going to
crowdfund the first phase, whichis the development of the
actual prototype.
And I've worked out there's 3million menopausal women in
Australia.
And I've worked out there's 3million menopausal women in
Australia and if all 3 millionwas to donate $10, well, we'd
have enough to not only make theprototype but do the clinical
(30:20):
trial and get it to market.
But you know it's a pipe dream.
Let's say, 10% of 3 millionwomen donated $10.
That would equal $3 million,which would do the first, the
prototype development, and thesecond, part of and this is an
Australian company.
Yes, yes, and Risa is Australian, and so the idea is that she's
(30:43):
won access to a US innovationhub space in Delaware, and the
idea is that then we'lleventually manufacture in
Australia.
Sonya (30:53):
the idea is that then we'll eventually manufacture in
Australia.
Australian owned companydesigned and manufactured in
Australia.
Jo (30:59):
Yeah, so watch this space.
I will hopefully have more tosay on that in the next couple
of weeks but super excited.
Sonya (31:09):
I'd be amazed if that's a crowd fund that women in
particular don't get behind.
So definitely watch this space.
We'll bring you moreinformation on that as you
progress.
That's exciting, Jo, I know.
So definitely watch this space.
We'll bring you moreinformation on that as you
progress.
That's exciting.
Jo (31:15):
Jo, I know.
So yeah, we just were like stopit, no one else is filling this
space, let's get women to do it.
Who needs big?
Sonya (31:23):
pharma.
Well, that's the rule of thumb,isn't it?
If you want it fixed, ask thewoman.
Jo (31:28):
That's right.
Sonya (31:30):
Yep, didn't the delhi llama?
Jo (31:36):
say women are going to um to lead the world.
Sonya (31:37):
Well, this is how we're going to do it, yeah one at a
time.
Yeah, one hrt product at a timeat a time.
Yes excellent, amazing.
Joe, it has been so good tocatch up with you.
We had a lot to get through.
I hope everybody found whatwe've touched on.
Uh, and as Pete, you'reinterested enough to go and find
out more yourselves.
I will link through in the shownotes to all the things we've
(31:59):
talked about so that you can gooff and deep dive into your own
little rabbit holes.
Jo (32:03):
Yeah, and you know and feel free to share anything that you
know, you think A you'd like tohear us talk about, or any
products that you're aware ofout in the world that you would
like to see in australia.
Deep, I want a vaginal mht ring.
It sounds great.
Just you'd use it every threemonths.
Sonya (32:20):
Yeah, I know, that's what I liked the sound of it.
It wasn't a daily thing.
This is like you pop it in andyou leave it and then you swap
it out every three months.
I was like, yes, please, allright, joe, please, all right,
joe.
Yes, one at a time, joe, one ata time.
Jo (32:38):
All right, see you, sonia.
Sonya (32:39):
Bye, honey.
Welcome to the Dear MenopausePodcast.
I'm Sonia Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
(33:01):
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast.
I'm Sonia Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
(00:25):
Needs to hear them.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations, jo.
Jo (00:32):
Welcome to this week's Hot Take.
Hi, sonia, I feel like it'sbeen quite a while.
Sonya (00:40):
It has been since they called the election.
It was the last time that wehad a conversation because we
had been talking a lot about theannouncements that were being
made and the lead up to theelection being called around
women's health and funding andyeah, but that kind of.
I felt like everything kind ofpaused for a period of time
there, like not just theelection stuff but also what was
happening in our space a littlebit outside of politics.
(01:02):
I felt like there was thislittle lull, but there's been
some good stuff happening and wehave come back together to talk
it all out.
Jo (01:11):
Where do you want to start?
And there are a long list ofthings to talk about.
Sonya (01:14):
Well, don't freak everyone out, it's not that long
.
Okay, how about I give everyonea brief overview of what we're
going to talk about, so that noone does get freaked out and
think that we're here for fivehours?
Okay, so we're going to starttalking about the infamous
podcast episode that wasreleased, probably about a week
ago now, between Dr Rachel Rubinand Dr Peter Atiyah, so we're
(01:35):
going to dive into that.
We're going to talk about aninteresting fact that I learned
recently while listening to acompletely different podcast
about Jamila Rizvi, who is anAustralian journalist, so I want
to talk about her.
And then we are going to dosome political talk, because we
now know that the Labor Party isback in power, we know that
there's been some shift incabinet seats and things like
(01:57):
that, so we're going to chatthrough all of that.
How's that sound?
Sounds absolutely brilliant,all righty.
Sounds absolutely brilliant,all righty.
Let's get the ball rolling thenwith the amazing podcast that
we all learned about last weekbetween Dr Rachel Rubin who, for
anyone that's listening anddoesn't know, is a urologist,
and she is an American urologistand she sat down to talk to Dr
(02:18):
Peter Atiyah.
Now, peter Atiyah kind of sitsfor me in that bro podcasting
kind of space.
He's a medical doctor, he is anactive doctor, he sees patients
, but he is known for those big,long bro kind of fitness,
longevity, health kind ofpodcasts, and so I was really
(02:41):
surprised to see him sit downwith Rachel, really excited to
listen to it.
It's a two and a half hourpodcast, so it is much longer
than podcasts I would normallylisten to for sure.
So I broke it down.
Here's my hot tips forlistening to it Break it into
chunks, oh.
And the other thing that I did,which I've never done before,
which I think helped as well,was I actually watched the
(03:01):
YouTube version of it ratherthan listening to just the audio
, and I found that that kept memuch more engaged for a longer
period of time, watching themactually go back and forth and
have a conversation.
So the topic of the podcast wasabout predominantly menopause,
hrt, specifically vaginal health, and GSM, because Rachel being
(03:25):
a urologrologist, that's a bigpart of her field, but a lot oh
my god it was.
It was just like everythingthat you could possibly want and
need to know about menopauseand perimenopause in this one
conversation in one podcast, Iagree.
Jo (03:41):
So when I saw how long it was, I was like like gosh.
But yeah, like you, I broke itdown into a couple of different
walks with my dog and I'veactually now listened to it
twice because you get to a pointI don't know if you do, sonia
like I've been very immersed inthis space now for three years,
and then personally, before that, I was sort of like, oh, can
there be that much new in there?
(04:01):
And yeah, there's so much thatI was like, oh, I've never heard
explained like that or I tookaway new information.
It's also sparked a whole lotof curiosity.
So, you know, one of the thingsthat I think I mentioned to you
before was Rachel talks about awhole lot of MHT products which
I had never heard of and whichmade me clearly go well, they're
(04:23):
not in Australia and then whyaren't they in Australia?
And now I want to know moreabout them, and why can't
Australian women have thatbreadth of choice?
So yes, I've already starteddown a rabbit hole of like oh,
vaginal rings for MHT.
I want to know more about that.
Sonya (04:37):
Yeah, that was fascinating when she was talking
about that.
There was a piece that I reallynerded out on that like this
was a piece that I really nerdedout on that like this.
No, I don't expect anyone elseto nerd out on this, but I
absolutely did.
They were talking aboutpathology tests and particularly
when they're doing pathologytests to measure hormone levels
in the blood, and they gotreally nerdy around the
(04:58):
different serums that are usedor the different assays that are
used within different pathologytesting companies and the
impacts that they had on some ofthe molecules in the blood
which would then mask the actual, true hormone levels.
And so it was like I use thiscompany, you know, and this is
why.
And he was like, yeah, the same, I've found that that company
(05:19):
is.
And I was like, man, this isnuts that it can even come down
to and this is obviouslyAmerican information, but I'd be
keen to know what the similarsituation is here.
Jo (05:30):
It can even come down to what pathology company tested
your bloods as to the accuracyof those results yeah, that made
my brain hurt, because then Iwas like now I want to know in
Australia, are there, is theresimilar differences across lab
testing and pathology, and theygo into a lot of detail on a
couple of different things which, yeah, I really liked as well.
(05:53):
You know, I think you knoweverything about your period,
but Rachel used this really coolcar analogy to engage.
She's like Peter, I hear youknow you love cars and Formula
One and the way she described it.
I'm actually going to, you know, love cars and formula one and
um, and the way she described it.
I'm actually gonna, you know,get my daughter to listen to it
because it for me, it was theclearest description that I've
ever had of of what happens toyour estrogen levels, um, across
(06:14):
your cycle and then inperimenopause, that it basically
you, your car has run out offuel and it is, it is empty, and
it just really crystallized tome.
Oh, that explains a lot, and soI thought there was something in
it that would be very easy forif you don't have a, you know,
particularly medicalunderstanding of how it works.
(06:36):
It just it just jumped out atme as something.
Sonya (06:38):
It's a really great visual analogy, isn't it?
Yeah, and it really connectedwith him.
One of the other things that Ireally liked about listening to
the two of them have aconversation was it was two
peers.
Excuse my Kiwi accent on that,I'm not talking about fruit Two
peers speaking to each other atthe same level.
There was no fangirling orfanboying.
(07:01):
There was no.
I'm the doctor, you're just apodcast host.
There were two equals meetingto have a conversation that was
highly evidence-based, veryclinically and anecdotally
evidence-based as well, becausethey spoke a lot about well, I
see patients in my clinic andthis is how I've treated them
and this is what I've seen andthis is how I manage this type
(07:23):
of patient.
Just the two of them together.
I got so much more than thisthan I ever could have expected
to.
Jo (07:30):
No, no, I'm the same, and I've actually sent it to
everyone in my network todaysaying you have to listen.
Sonya (07:37):
Yeah, and I did too.
I think I actually even wentout on a limb and did a social
media story where I just saidthis is the best podcast that
has been recorded to date onthis topic.
Jo (07:50):
And it's also very accessible.
In that, Rachel, just I mean Iguess Peter does as well I've
never listened to one of hispodcasts before, but it is just
very.
You don't realise that you'relistening to something that's
over two hours because you're soengaged in the conversation.
It's medical but notmedicalized, so you're sort of
like wanting to know where it'sgoing to go next and what
(08:11):
they're going to talk about, andit just feels like a
conversation amongst friendsyeah, a hundred percent.
Sonya (08:16):
And I actually had coffee with a good friend of mine
who's a little bit of a mentorin the business space as well as
he's very invested in healthand women's health A guy in his
late forties and the first thinghe said to me was have you
listened to the Rachel Rubin,peter Atiyah podcast?
I was like, yeah, what did youthink?
He was like the best, the best.
(08:37):
And I was like, okay, cool.
Well, if it's connecting withhim and it's connected with us
in the same way, that says a lot.
Jo (08:45):
Yeah, I agree, so you can connect it in the show notes.
Sonya (08:49):
Show notes 100%.
I'll put the link to theYouTube version and to an audio
version so that people can pickand choose which one they want.
Jo (08:56):
That sounds great.
Now you were telling me aboutanother excellent podcast.
Sonya (09:01):
As a podcaster, I listen to lots of podcasts and lots of
variety of podcasts, and one ofmy kind of go-tos when I'm
driving in the car actuallyoften is Conversations, which is
an ABC-based podcast and it'svery much storytelling.
They were interviewing JamilaRizvi who, for anybody that
doesn't know, jamila is in herearly 30s.
She is a renowned Australianjournalist.
(09:23):
Her early 30s she is a renownedAustralian journalist.
When she was 31, she was a newmum, so she was postnatal.
She kind of got the sense thatsomething was kind of off in her
health.
Now this is the bit that reallypiqued my interest.
She missed a period which forher, was very unusual and just
on top of kind of what else wasgoing on for her health-wise was
enough to send her off to theGP practice to have a bit of a
(09:46):
check-up and check in with herGP.
I'm going to go out on a limbhere and assume that she had a
really great GP who went okay,cool, this is not normal for you
, this is not just a new mumthing, let's see what's going on
and sent her off for a wholebarrage of tests.
One of the things that cameback in that testing was that
her hormones were suppressed, soher estrogen progesterone were
(10:10):
suppressed.
She literally kind of was likesitting at zero, which explains
no period, but what her ultimatediagnosis was that she had this
very rare brain tumor and itwas the fact of where the tumor
was growing in her brain thatwas impacting the release of her
hormones.
So, first of all, fantasticepisode.
(10:32):
Go and listen to it.
She's amazing.
She's actually just alsoco-published a book with Rosie
Waterland which is called BrokenBrains.
Because they were good friends,they have different stories
about their brains, but they'vebrought them together into this
book.
Go, have a listen to the podcast, because it's A it's just a
fascinating story, but B for meit was just this really simple
reminder that a missed periodisn't just going to be something
(10:57):
that you should put down to.
It's perimenopause or oh, I'm anew mom.
Any change in our health that'sout of the ordinary must be
checked, because there are amyriad of reasons as to why
something like that might happenand you kind of think, gosh,
imagine if she had just put thatdown to.
(11:17):
I've heard all this talk aboutperimenopause.
It must just be something likethat, so I'm not going to go and
worry about it that she didtake herself off to the and
worry about it.
You know that she did takeherself off to the GP and have
that checked.
So my takeaway from thatconversation for everyone
listening is any change thatyou're experiencing that's not
normal.
Please get it checked out yeah,that sounds really interesting.
Jo (11:37):
um, and I have noticed her book um come up in my feed and
have been wanting to have a lookat that, but I know I hadn't
realized that's how she learnedabout her diagnosis was through
a missed period, but it's likeit's quite mind blowing to think
about that.
Sonya (11:48):
It really is.
Jo (11:49):
Something so simple was the symptom of something so severe
yeah, well, I had something Iwanted to mention, um, but you
know I haven't done a deep diveon it yet.
Um, but it has come up in myfeed over the last uh 24 to 48
hours.
Um, but there's been an articleum published in clinical
endocrinology, um on sexhormones and risk of incident
(12:13):
dementia in men andpost-menopausal women.
Um, and this sparked mycuriosity because obviously in
the menopause space there is alot of discussion about what
impact sex hormones may or maynot have on cognition and brain
health in later life.
And this study is superfascinating because it took data
from the UK Biobank.
(12:34):
It's like 300,000 women and menthat they've actually yeah, it
was a huge cohort.
Sonya (12:40):
And that was the thing that really caught my eye, when
I looked at the paper as well,was this isn't one of those
studies.
That's just we took 500 people.
This is a huge cohort.
And the other thing that Inoted, too is, yes, they use the
UK Biobank their cohort source.
It's a Chinese study.
This is a study out of China.
Jo (13:01):
Yeah, I'd noticed that as well, and all the authors are
based in universities in China.
But basically the conclusion isthat their findings revealed
that lower free testosteroneconcentrations do seem to be
associated with higher incidenceof all-cause dementia and
Alzheimer's disease andobviously encouraging further
(13:22):
studies to determine if there'scausality.
But it was really interesting.
I sent it to my mother-in-law,dr Linda Thompson, who has a PhD
in biology, because I often gether to read papers with her PhD
hat on, and she also flagged areally interesting point that
hadn't jumped out at me at thestart.
But when you look at the age ofthe participants, they followed
(13:43):
them for 12 years during thisstudy, which is quite amazing.
But they started off.
I think the women were almost60, the mean age, and the men
were a bit younger, they weremore like 56.
But which actually means thatat the end of the 12 years
either cohort of age was thatold, and she pointed out that
(14:05):
often that is roughly the ageswhen you might start to see um,
any sort of alzheimer's um ordementia um, and so it'd be
interesting to see you know inanother it's ongoing, you know?
Sonya (14:17):
yeah, are they continuing to follow them?
Jo (14:20):
whether that had changed.
But yeah, I really fascinating,especially given we've heard
quite a bit about the thinkingabout estrogen and its impact on
the brain, but not so muchabout testosterone.
I think we'll probably see morestudies looking at this in the
future, which is really exciting.
Anything that, anything thatcould potentially have a
positive impact on reducingdementia risk, is pretty
(14:43):
exciting.
Sonya (14:43):
Oh, 100% the other thing that I liked about it too.
When I took a very brief lookat it, they did note who had
been on MHT at the time of doingthe baseline testing and who
hadn't.
So that's also reflected in,I'm assuming, if you dig into
the more nuanced results.
If we can note who had takenMHT and marry that up with some
(15:04):
of the results, I think that'sso incredibly helpful and
beneficial.
Jo (15:08):
Oh, I'm going to have another look at that and get
Linda to have another look atthat as well.
Excellent, another job for.
Sonya (15:13):
Linda, All right.
So the other thing we want totalk about and we will probably
dive into this a little bitdeeper because it is a bit of a
passion project for both of us,and that is where the political
landscape lies now we'repost-election, Specifically in
relation to a whole bunch ofthose promises.
We had the outcomes of theSenate inquiry and then we had a
(15:35):
whole bunch of promises thatwere made, big dollar figures
that were thrown around.
I interviewed Jed Carney todiscuss, you know, how that was
going to be spent and all thebreakdown of that.
How about a bit of an update onwhere we sit now, post-election
?
I know.
Jo (15:50):
It's sort of like where to start.
So very exciting.
There are even more women inparliament after this election
than there were for the recordbreaking parliament before that.
Sonya (16:02):
But also two party leaders are now female, whether
they were parties that you votedfor or not.
The fact that we have, of thethree major parties, that two of
those parties are now led bywomen, and women that fall into
our demographic.
Jo (16:20):
Yes, I know, and the beautiful Larissa Waters I know.
I mean that was very excitingto see Senator Waters become the
leader of the Greens.
Obviously that was as a resultof Adam Bandt losing his seat in
Melbourne, which was a bit of asurprise loss and a real
(16:40):
disappointment for the Greens.
But interestingly both Adam andPeter Dutton, who also lost his
seat on election night, bothlost to women standing for the
first time.
So you know that amount of newfemale candidates has meant that
the Labor caucus is nowdominated by women and the Labor
(17:02):
cabinet is now gender equal,which goes to show over the
years, especially maybe frommore conservative sides of
politics, there's been a lot ofnegativity around the quota
system that was introduced, Ithink around 1994.
But I think what we're seeingnow is that that has really paid
off and we have a parliamentthat is gender equal.
(17:24):
We saw in the lastparliamentary term that having
gender equality does reallydeliver for women and for a lot
of the issues that are reallyimportant to women and families.
You know we saw improvements inpay conditions for workers,
like in childcare and aged care.
You know we saw betterchildcare policies.
(17:45):
We saw all the women's health.
You know initiatives, thecreation of the National Women's
Health Advisory Council.
So when you have that kind ofrepresentation, it does mean
that the issues that areimportant to 51% of the
population are more likely toget a greater hearing.
I was interested and pleased tosee that the Liberal Party
(18:08):
elected Susan Lay as their newleader.
With Dutton's defeat, a part ofme is a little bit nervous that
look, I don't think we'resaying anything that hasn't
already been said.
The Liberal Party gotabsolutely smashed in the
election and we don't need to gointo all the reasons why, but I
suspect that their lack ofwomen candidates definitely
(18:31):
played a role in that.
So the fact that they've nowgot a female leader I think is
really exciting.
But I am a little concernedthat you know, susan has been
given a glass cliff, animpossible challenge.
It's going to be very hard torebuild.
Sonya (18:48):
And look, you're right.
There has been a lot of talk inthe media as well about the
glass cliff, and it'sinteresting because it's not
something that I've seen spokenabout so openly in the media
before the glass cliff.
I don't think everyone knowswhat it means, and if you are
intrigued as to what a glasscliff is, please go Google it
because you will be fascinated.
I really hope it's not.
I really, really hope that thisis the opportunity for a female
(19:11):
leader in Australia to showthat they have what it takes to
lead a party and have longevityin that role and be respected by
the media, the opposition.
Unfortunately, the onlybenchmark that we have for that
in Australia is how JuliaGillard was treated, which was
absolutely appalling anddisgraceful, and I hope that we
(19:34):
never, ever see a repeat of that, yeah, so I really hope it's
not a glass cliff.
I hope that we really do seesomeone step into this and be
given the opportunity to lead.
Jo (19:44):
Yeah, exactly Me too.
Which brings us to, I guess,the portfolios that we are
passionate about.
So a lot of the ministers kepttheir portfolios, which I think
will allow for a lot ofstability in this next year
following the election.
But we saw a small change in aminister that I think was close
to everyone's heart in thisspace, with Jed being moved to a
(20:07):
new portfolio, which they arevery lucky to have, her, and I
think she will.
Sonya (20:11):
And it's an important portfolio as well.
It is an area that needssomeone like Jed.
I think I'm excited to see whatshe does.
Violence, domestic violence,the killing of women let's be
completely honest is asignificant issue that needs to
be addressed at a politicallevel, and I really, really hope
that Jed can turn things aroundand make a difference in this
(20:33):
space, but I'm brokenheartedthat she's left us.
Jo (20:37):
Exactly.
She did her Assistant Ministerof Health job so well.
She's been rewarded with aneven more challenging portfolio.
So we wish you all the luck,deb, and hope you have the same
success in that portfolio.
But it means that we will havea new Assistant Minister for
Health and that is Rebecca White, who is a first-time Federal
(20:58):
Minister from Tasmania and shelooks super energetic and keen,
judging by what I've seen on herInsta so far.
She doesn't have a backgroundin health, which is something
that Jed did bring to the role,but I think that she's got a lot
of experience in state politicsand this is her first time
being in a federal seat.
So I'm putting money on she'sgoing to be super enthusiastic,
(21:22):
super keen to make a mark andvery keen to, I guess, progress
all of the work that Jed and thegovernment had started in their
last term.
And I think one of the thingsthat is exciting me a little is,
with Labor having control ofthe House of Representatives and
having such a decisive win interms of the seats that they now
(21:44):
have, that they can be reallybrave and bold with a lot of
policy and keep pushing forwardin this space.
So I think that'll be really anopportunity for all the people
that we work with and talk toand all the advocates to reach
out to Rebecca and Mark andcontinue to raise the issues
that are really important to usand follow up on those promises
(22:06):
I guess were made on the 9th ofFebruary.
And I'm particularly keen tofollow up on the commentary that
Mark made in Feb around and Ithink we've discussed it before,
sonia like around the PBS andmaking sure it really works for
women, because there's a lot ofgender inequity in the drugs
that are on the PBS.
And then, like we justmentioned with the Rachel Rubin
podcast, there's heaps of drugsout there in the world that
(22:28):
aren't even in Australia, sosomeone please bring them in.
Yeah, so I'm feeling superexcited.
What were your thoughts?
Sonya (22:35):
Yeah, same, very similar to you.
As I said, heartbreaking to seejed leave an area where she was
making such a huge difference.
But I have, I have gone anddone a little bit of online
stalking of rebecca as well andshe certainly appears to be, as
you said, some she's.
You know she's.
She's younger, she's got a lotof energy, she seems to be very
(22:56):
smart, very well-spoken and verywell regarded and respected in
Tasmania.
So I'm really interested tohear the response to those
promises that were made onFebruary 9th.
You know, yes, the PBS stuff isreally important, but there was
a whole lot of other stuff thatwas promised alongside that.
The community educationcampaign.
(23:20):
I think there's a lot to waitand see, but I'm excited for
where we're headed.
Jo (23:24):
And the other thing that's just occurred to me that is also
exciting about her portfolio isand something different from
Jed is she's also being giventhe Assistant Minister for Women
portfolio, so she'll be workingto Minister Butler and Minister
Gallagher on women and health,so it's the first time those two
(23:46):
things have been broughttogether, so I think that'll be
a really interesting combination.
And she's also the AssistantMinister for Indigenous Health
as well.
Sonya (23:54):
I think the three do go really well together in this
current climate that we have inthe space that you and I work in
, this current climate that wehave in the space that you and I
work in.
But even if we look outside ofother areas of women's health
endometriosis and period painand heavy menstrual bleeding and
all the aspects of women'shealth that deserve so much
support they need even more inthe Indigenous space, and I'm
(24:15):
excited to announce actually,let's talk about this for just a
moment and I'm excited toannounce actually let's talk
about this for just a moment Iam interviewing next week
Professor Odette Best for theDear Menopause podcast to talk
about the specifics intoIndigenous women's health,
particularly when it comes tomenopause and midlife health and
the research that she's beeninvolved in.
So you know, I think that's anarea we don't talk about enough.
Jo (24:37):
I mean I was actually just about to bring up Professor Best
that is hilarious straightminds because I believe that she
had applied for an MRFF lastyear specifically wanting to do
a deep dive research piece intoIndigenous women and the
menopause transition, becausethere isn't any data.
I remember seeing her speak atthe so Hot Right Now medical
(25:01):
conference in Sydney in Marchand I mean her presentation was
just like a punch in the guts interms of the lack of
information and data.
Sonya (25:12):
I'm interviewing her next week.
Jo (25:14):
It'll be a couple of weeks before the podcast episode drops
, but, yeah, really excited tobe talking to her next week and
you've actually made me think ofsomething else which we haven't
discussed whether we're goingto discuss it, so I'm just going
to throw it out there.
Sonia, I have very mixedemotions about the announcement
(25:34):
of 50 million for endometriosisresearch in I think it was UNSW,
which is a huge amount of moneyand I think it really builds on
the investment that thegovernment has done into
endometriosis research over thelast few years and it's really
wonderful to see yes, there wasall the media I saw around it no
(25:55):
one was touching on the factabout where that money has come
from.
I feel that it's good to beexcited about such big
investments into women's healthresearch, but I do feel that
it's important to show thenuance and that that money has
come from a family that has madea lot of wealth from gambling
and manufacturing and sellingpokey machines globally, which
(26:17):
you know.
It made me feel uncomfortable.
Sonya (26:20):
Yeah, and it's really interesting because I had read
that headline and I got superexcited.
I sent it to our group chat youknow how do we get this for
menopause and then you camestraight back, gave me the
rundown on who the family wasand where they had made their
money and the potential PRexercise behind a big
announcement like that and howthat makes them look in the
(26:42):
public eye.
And I'm not saying that waswhat was going on, but it could
be perceived that way that Ididn't read beyond the headline
and I didn't do my due diligenceand I didn't look into who the
family was that had made thedonation.
And you're right, it doesmatter, it really does.
Yes, this is great, we need theresearch, we need big
investments like this, but Ithink sometimes it's also worth
(27:03):
just taking a little bit of adeeper dive into where that
money actually came from in thefirst place, because gambling is
an illness.
It is an illness that isperpetuated by institutions that
create the industry to startwith, like this family was
involved in it's clubs and pubsand all of those that use these
as an income source.
(27:23):
And then people lose theirlives, people lose families,
people lose an awful lot ofmoney to gambling, and it is
something that we shoulddefinitely not be putting up on
a pedestal.
Jo (27:37):
I know and it did get me thinking because I was I was
like, well, who could do thingslike a big research funding for
menopause?
And it is really hard becauseoften those who have the most
wealth tend to have gotten it by.
Uh, well, let's just say,someone might have been
exploited in that process.
You know, you think about, yeah, you think about gas.
You know it's reallycomplicated and I think it's
(27:58):
really great that australia doesneed a bit more, I think,
philanthropic endeavor.
But yeah, just, it just raisedall sorts of questions for me
and lots of complicated feelings.
Um, and it does make me like 50million is a good amount.
Like that is an amount thatwill actually have an impact.
And I think we've mentionedbefore um, the welcome leap, who
(28:18):
gave lisa musconi 50 millionfor the work that she does on
the brain and estrogen.
So these are, they're the typesof money that can actually make
.
That does it makes a difference, heaps of difference.
I think there's a goal for umrebecca white, I still want that
100 million medical researchfuture fund for menopause.
So, yes, we'll have to organiseto do a bit of advocacy on that
(28:41):
, I think, sonia, and that waythe government can fund it, yes,
and then there'll be nocomplicated feelings.
Sonya (28:48):
Exactly, Awesome, Jo.
I know there was just one othertopic you wanted to wrap us up
on today.
Let's go there.
Jo (28:55):
I did and I'm super excited about it, and some of you might
have seen that I did anInstagram and a LinkedIn post
about it.
So I'm working with thisamazing woman, riza, and her
company, l'oreal Health, and sheis working to develop the first
estrogen patch that will bedesigned and manufactured.
(29:16):
In the last I think 22 yearsit's been since there's been a
new patch and, as you know and Iknow from you know the comments
we read and get and see on thesocials.
You know patches are impossibleto get at the moment Patches
fall off.
Patches irrit.
At the moment Patches fall off,patches irritate the skin.
Risa and L'Oreal Health aretrying to address all of those
(29:38):
issues, and so we've been havingsome chats with investors and
we've got some really amazingadvice and some really helpful
suggestions and we've got apitch deck that's being tweaked
and developed.
But it is hard because, whilstRisa and the team are working on
the prototype, at the momentit's not finished.
I think there's something like3,000 polymers that could be
(29:59):
utilised.
I've been learning all sorts ofthings that I never thought I'd
learn about, so we have decidedI think we're going to
crowdfund the first phase, whichis the development of the
actual prototype.
And I've worked out there's 3million menopausal women in
Australia.
And I've worked out there's 3million menopausal women in
Australia and if all 3 millionwas to donate $10, well, we'd
have enough to not only make theprototype but do the clinical
(30:20):
trial and get it to market.
But you know it's a pipe dream.
Let's say, 10% of 3 millionwomen donated $10.
That would equal $3 million,which would do the first, the
prototype development, and thesecond, part of and this is an
Australian company.
Yes, yes, and Risa is Australian, and so the idea is that she's
(30:43):
won access to a US innovationhub space in Delaware, and the
idea is that then we'lleventually manufacture in
Australia.
Sonya (30:53):
the idea is that then we'll eventually manufacture in
Australia.
Australian owned companydesigned and manufactured in
Australia.
Jo (30:59):
Yeah, so watch this space.
I will hopefully have more tosay on that in the next couple
of weeks but super excited.
Sonya (31:09):
I'd be amazed if that's a crowd fund that women in
particular don't get behind.
So definitely watch this space.
We'll bring you moreinformation on that as you
progress.
That's exciting, Jo, I know.
So definitely watch this space.
We'll bring you moreinformation on that as you
progress.
That's exciting.
Jo (31:15):
Jo, I know.
So yeah, we just were like stopit, no one else is filling this
space, let's get women to do it.
Who needs big?
Sonya (31:23):
pharma.
Well, that's the rule of thumb,isn't it?
If you want it fixed, ask thewoman.
Jo (31:28):
That's right.
Sonya (31:30):
Yep, didn't the delhi llama?
Jo (31:36):
say women are going to um to lead the world.
Sonya (31:37):
Well, this is how we're going to do it, yeah one at a
time.
Yeah, one hrt product at a timeat a time.
Yes excellent, amazing.
Joe, it has been so good tocatch up with you.
We had a lot to get through.
I hope everybody found whatwe've touched on.
Uh, and as Pete, you'reinterested enough to go and find
out more yourselves.
I will link through in the shownotes to all the things we've
(31:59):
talked about so that you can gooff and deep dive into your own
little rabbit holes.
Jo (32:03):
Yeah, and you know and feel free to share anything that you
know, you think A you'd like tohear us talk about, or any
products that you're aware ofout in the world that you would
like to see in australia.
Deep, I want a vaginal mht ring.
It sounds great.
Just you'd use it every threemonths.
Sonya (32:20):
Yeah, I know, that's what I liked the sound of it.
It wasn't a daily thing.
This is like you pop it in andyou leave it and then you swap
it out every three months.
I was like, yes, please, allright, joe, please, all right,
joe.
Yes, one at a time, joe, one ata time.
Jo (32:38):
All right, see you, sonia.
Sonya (32:39):
Bye, honey.
Welcome to the Dear MenopausePodcast.
I'm Sonia Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
(33:01):
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
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