Episode 94: Gotta go fast with Creativity, Science, and the Sonic Cinematic Saga

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Ever wondered how a quirky podcast name like "Deep Space and Dragons" came to be? Richard and Karl share the humorous backstory of their show's branding journey and why creativity matters in crafting an identity. They dive headfirst into personal projects, from Richard's DIY graphic design escapades to his Teespring shop adventures, and sprinkle in a lively chat about the intricate dance between science and the supplement industry, courtesy of Karl's fiancé's health quest. Multivitamins become a surprising bridge to broader discussions about faith in scientific studies versus skepticism of corporate influences.

Prepare for a spirited exchange on the challenges and triumphs of bringing beloved video game characters to the silver screen. "Sonic the Hedgehog" and "Battle Angel Alita" take center stage as Richard and Yarl unpack what adaptations got right—and hilariously wrong—when translating source material for film. Hear how Sonic's buddy-cop dynamic won hearts and why fan nods are crucial to success. From narrative simplicity to fan perceptions of power dynamics, this conversation promises laughs and fresh insights into these iconic stories.

The journey through Sonic's cinematic universe doesn't end there. Explore bold creative choices, like the Knuckles spin-off's deliberate silliness, and ponder the potential of a Sonic fourth installment. Richard and Karl critique plot continuity, character evolution, and the clever use of franchise history, all while reveling in the joy of seeing high-profile actors bring these characters to life. With both humor and passion, they debate whether the Sonic series should forge ahead or find a satisfying conclusion, contemplating future possibilities and the ever-important balance of storytelling.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, I thought I was going to have something
witty or quippy, but insteadit's just Deep Space and Dragons
.
I'm Richard.
I go before the ant.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
I am Carl.
I mean, we've talked about howit's not alphabetical, but it's
not really a big deal.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Well, I had a long internal monologue about this.
Like I gathered, the sevensages went on top of the
mountain to meditate on this andI figured out why it's
structured this way After deeplyasking myself the real
questions, and I found theanswer.
Would you like to know theanswer?

Speaker 2 (00:38):
I would love to know the answer.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
I made the logo.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Wow, that is deep and soul searching.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
I am certain that if you were just like hey, hey,
vlad, I made Carl and Vlad forsaid Deep Space Dragons.
Look at this cool title screenand logo I'd be like guess I'm
Vlad for the next hundredepisodes.
Because that's sick, so itabsolutely lets you have that.
So I think at the end of theday episodes because that's sick
, so it absolutely lets you havethat.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
So I think at the end of the day, branding comes with
who is the first to write itdown on the napkin.
All right, yeah, we are Richard, and Carl Presents Deep Space
and Dragons.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Until you slide me a new logo.
I kind of enjoy the idea ofchanging the name but not
changing it anywhere.
So we just give differentepisode titles.
At the start of things It'd belike, yeah, 100 episodes and
they just turn to Carl andRichard present, or they turn to
the Car-Chard and the thumbnailchange Car-Chard, oh man, not

(01:39):
at my best.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Do you still have your Teespring t-shirt shop
thing.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
To my knowledge, it does exist.
Yes, I may have to update mytax information on that one.
Ah, Because, like I am wearingmy own merch right now for my
novel, because of course I am.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Right, right, I mean you also have those like, like
the cool, like char mander shirtwhere it's like char mander
dressed up as char from gundamit's just so funny to think back
to me like using inkscape andtrying to art.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
It's so like.
It's like some days I worry,I'm the epitome of I'll just do
it myself.
And then I'm like, yeah, I agood job.
And then I look at an actualprofessional and be like, oh no,
my motivation.
Because it's like I can workCanva, I can work Inkscape, I
can work paint.
If I have to, I can do likesome artwork due to necessity of

(02:36):
who else is going to do this.
But like during my co-op term,when we had a graphics person
and another graphics person.
I'm like, oh, I see, you justknow the QR codes off the top of
your head for the brandingcolors.
Huh, I was ready to dazzle youwith my knowledge, but I'm at
like a first year's level andyou're a fourth year level.

(02:56):
Oh, no, people have talent andI'm scared.
But before I monologue.
Too much about my coworkers.
What's new in the Carlverse?

Speaker 2 (03:06):
you have 7 minutes 7 minutes sorry wow, that took
your breath away yeah, that was,and if I mix it with a unicorn?
Horn, I can use it to kill adragon so so what's new with me

(03:27):
is that my girlfriend has, or myfiancé has, decided that we
need to start takingmultivitamins Correct.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I've been making quips about you getting surveyed
scurvy for years.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
You know, yeah, it makes sense.
It makes sense.
I probably should make sure Ihave a balanced diet and all the
vitamins and minerals that Iactually need.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Your primary source of dietary fiber is the ginger
and ginger ale.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
But um, kind of a hot take.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
but science, you know , like modern science, medicine
and whatnot you know, suggeststhat we should I always thought
you were about to say hot takescience, and then leave it sit
like it's a hot take in itself,which, concerningly, is true.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
But science is almost like a religion unto itself
where you have to put a lot offaith in all of these studies
and things that you can'tactually personally replicate.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
I'm going to pause, you right there.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Because you don't have the means to actually do it
right.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
So I'm going to put down the science denial in its
place right now.
So a lot of people will be likescience is full of holes.
You can't believe in science.
By definition, science isreplicatable.
That's what makes it science.
So it's like science willalways be better than faith when
it comes to multivitamins,because the magic healing hot

(04:54):
spring at Manitou Springs mayhave healed my ex-girlfriend's
toe it might have, but I can'treplicate that.
But I can absolutely depriveyou of vitamin D until you start
getting pimples on your tonguewell, yeah, okay, I mean I
suppose that's true.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
I'm just saying that it's like the degree of science
actually like know all of thesethings that that particularly,
uh, corporate funded studiesthat you know do things for
multivitamins like they'retrying to sell us this idea of
health.
I mean, I don't know, I I'm notgonna say I shouldn't not gonna
take multivitamins.
I I just I worry how much ofthis just corporate chill, you

(05:35):
know.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
So I'm gonna follow up on this with like some
statements because, like, I'mnot counting this as part of
your seven minutes, by the way.
So one of my good associates isa health sciences professor and
we've been collaborating In thelast three years I've been
reading a lot of academicarticles for various
work-related things, right Likeputting together information

(05:57):
learning studies.
When we start reading theactual studies and see what
people did and the hundreds ofcitations they will literally to
prove that certain vitamins arewhat they do for you.
Deprive animals of vitamins andgive other animals those
vitamins and watch what happened.
And back about 200 years agothey'd just do that to people.
But here's where it gets tricky.

(06:18):
We know what vitamins your bodyneeds and what happens if
you're deprived of them onaccount of us doing that to
people to see what it would doto them now do?
I believe that big vitamin has astake in you buying supplements
and they had massive lobbyingmovements to not ban supplements
and regulate supplements, yesthere is some shadiness in fda

(06:38):
approved vitamins, however, theactual fundamental vitamins
themselves your body needs.
We know this for certainty.
Your great great greatgrandfather would kill someone
for a lemon if they weresuffering from that vitamin
deficiency, because their toesand fingernails would be falling
off and they would be in agony.
And we've sneaked so much extravitamins into things just in

(07:03):
the background that you don'teven realize how much food
you're consuming that's alreadybeen fortified, because people
just die.
And people are like, well, Idon't see any symptoms, so I'm
going to stop having this, andthen they just die.
It's like when people broughtback not pasteurizing milk and
just died of botulism becausethey weren't.
They were so used to it beingsafe, they assumed that, oh,

(07:23):
it's not doing anything.
It's like if you don't getenough vitamin D, you get sick.
That's just a fact.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't take
multivitamins.
Self-care is very important.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
I'm saying you should go to a doctor and ask them if
you should take vitamins, notWikipedia.
Right, right, right or betteryet educate yourself for four
years in health sciences andstart reading these papers on
vitamins and do your ownresearch.
But when people say do theirown research, they don't
actually mean research, theymean Google.

(07:59):
Do your own research meansactually looking at structured
studies with variables, withreplicatable results, and seeing
enough of those replicatedresults to draw conclusions.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, yeah.
All I'm saying is that I don'tactually have the time to do
those experiments or theresearch required to get that
level of knowledge myself, so Ipersonally have to take a lot of
science on faith.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
And I'm saying that a lot of the science you take on
faith is you taking the scienceon science and are so used to
society coddling you that if youdidn't have the science backing
you you'd just be dead.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, I mean, that's true, that's true.
Anyways, point of story iswhat's new with me is I started
taking multivitamins, and I'mkind of begrudgingly doing it
because it's like uh, so likehere's, where we're going

Speaker 1 (08:55):
for the same shade on academic rigor back on your
fiance.
Your fiance also didn't dotheir research.
What you should do is go to thedoctor for a full checkup and
ask them about your vitaminlevels and if you should take
supplements.
That's what you should do, Well.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
I mean I did go to the doctor as well.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
I take specific vitamins that have been
recommended to me for specificfunctions.
I don't just like ooh, I needto take my vitamins to grow up
big and strong.
It's like ooh, I need to takemy vitamins to grow up big and
strong.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
I'm like no, I need vitamin D because I live in a
basement suite and it hasn'tbeen producing enough vitamin D,
which means it's actuallyaffecting my emotional stability
.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
You know facts Because we can prove them and
repeat them.
That's why you don't takescience on faith.
You take science on science.
Just, people don't read thescience.
That seems to be a triggerissue for me.
You still have three minutesleft of what's new with you
Because I had to rant aboutscience.
I'm pro-science.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
No, I I'm not trying to be like anti-science, like I
do think that there are lots ofthings that have been
scientifically proven and wejust kind of take as fact.
I just it's like when you getinto the nitty gritty of things
like human body chemistry andwhat each individual needs, it's

(10:20):
like half the time it seemslike all these studies are
saying that it's just a stab inthe dark.
They have this broad generalnumber, but you specifically
might be in some other range ofdaily requirements, right?

Speaker 1 (10:33):
My follow-up is that it's not science versus faith,
it's faith versus faith, and oneof them labeling it science
Because and I can't stress thisenough we know what these
vitamins do on a cellular level.
We just do.
We have looked at it.
We've physically ripped themuscle tissue out of somebody
and watched the cells movearound the vitamin to build the

(10:55):
thing we know exactly how it?
works.
But you're right, people willcherry pick data to match their
point, to sell a thing Like, forexample we know for a fact
McDonald's kills you as fast assmoking if you eat McDonald's
daily.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
Right.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
These are facts.
That's how it works.
It's one of those things whereit's like people like to equate
I don't know with nobody knows,and then we have.
No, no, people have spent 30years knowing the thing, most
things are known.
We have convinced rocks tocarry electricity, to talk to
each other, to think they'rethinking, to make a cell phone
for the TikTok algorithm totargetedly sell you fake news.

(11:36):
It's like someone somewhereknows how everything works.
They're just not paid enough.
But yeah, that is my mini rant.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
That's all that's really new with me, as I'm
taking multivitamins.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Isn't it also fun to watch me antivitamin while
fighting off a cold actively?

Speaker 2 (12:00):
I'm not being.
I'm taking the vitamins.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
You're antivitamin.
You're begrudgingly doingsomething to stay alive.
It'd be like be begrudginglydrinking water.
We all know I should bedrinking water.
It makes my skin clear andkeeps me alive.
Probably not as much water as Itell you, but I should be
drinking water, but Ibegrudgingly do it because
coffee tastes better Because I'mdead inside.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Well, maybe you should take some vitamins for
that.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
I have vitamins on my desk right now.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
But what's new with you there, Richard?

Speaker 1 (12:38):
So my new semester has started up and I have sick
classes.
One is a class that's literallylike hey, it's called emergent
issues in writing and it changesevery semester based on what an
emerging issue in writing isand what professional they can
get so the fact that I'm in thebody horror cyborgs class makes

(13:00):
me a very happy person.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
That's an emerging issue, or like emerging trend.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
So the full name of the class and I need to actually
pull this up to not paraphrasebecause I'm a good boy and I do
my research, except when I'mjust bullshitting, which is 90%
of what I do.
All right, what I do, alright.
So the full name is Wrong class.
Almost found the full name.
This is so exciting for ouraudio-only listeners, which is

(13:37):
all of them.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, very exciting.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
They can picture in their mind's eye me scrolling on
a webpage trying to find aparagraph of text Emergent
issues in writing transidentities, the body and
metamorphosis in horror andspeculative fiction.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Okay, is there a colon or a semicolon somewhere
in there?

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Between writing and trans identities, the body and
metamorphosis, and horror andspeculative fiction.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Right, okay, so the subsection of the class that
you're doing this semester isbody horror.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
So like it changes every semester.
So like, for example, emergingIssues last year could have been
like short form and poetry orsomething.
So, for example, emergingissues last year could have been
short form in poetry orsomething.
So I specifically got the yearwhere, like, let's read some
body horror, let's read somescience fiction, talk about how
that plays into genderidentities and binary systems of
thinking.
So I'm reading feministarticles on cyborgs.

(14:40):
I'm like this is great.
Considering what I'm working onas my pet project right now,
this is fantastic for me.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Feminist articles about cyborgs.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah, it's a very interesting idea.
It kind of goes back to theconcept that a cyborg is
literally just taking anythingnatural and adding unnatural
components to it to optimize itsuse as an efficient part of a
system rather than a person.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
So technically, by wearing glasses, I'm a cyborg
and which means that glasses arenow part of my identity,
because an external force canthen own and control my ability
to see.
See, see how this is a goodclass.
See how, when a class tells me,hey, you should read
frankenstein, and then talkabout the ethics of making
frankenstein's monster, that's agood class.

(15:31):
Yeah, we read a short storyabout someone in an alternate
world where writers had tophysically use their own blood
to write.
Oh, because that was just thesource of ink.
So if you wanted to be a writer, it would drastically cut down
your life expectancy because youput your literal life force on
the page.
So new with me is fun classes.

(15:57):
Another class I'm doing islearning to teach creative
writing, work on my big projectand something, something,
portfolio, something, something.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
The class I kind of already did by being an
established writer in a writingclass, right, right.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
So can you hand in your portfolio?
Do you have a portfolio already?
I'm like 90% done my authorwebsite.
I just have to click the livebutton to hand in.
So that's lovely.
So between that, and I didanother going to the different
writing and reading events.
I did a public reading of anexcerpt of my novel, but doing
writer stuff Plus, I only haveclass on campus two days a week,

(16:36):
which is just delightful.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Delightful.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Like today, I spent six hours reading about
different teaching methods forcreative writing.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
This is a good thing for me.
Well, I was talking about how,like, you can teach people to
learn things by either A takingan authoritative stance of I'm
the teacher, you're the student.
B having students share theirlived experience to construct
the teacher.
C giving examples of existingmedia to copy.
And.

(17:16):
D it's basically like there'sthe instructor-focused,
student-focused, work-focusedand culture-focused and how,
each one's good for a differentthing.
Like, if you have a writer'sworkshop and only your teacher
has authority, then you squashcreativity if they don't do it
your way.
And if you do a writingworkshop where you have to copy
other people, then you learnmore about their style but you
lose your way.
But if you do a writingworkshop where you assume every

(17:37):
piece of work is beautiful andperfect and you're just trying
to make it the best you can, youcan kind of create an echo
chamber and won't actually learnanything.
So like, after reading so muchsuch dead's text, I'm happy.
This is my happy place.
I had a peppermint mocha in myapartment vibing to the Sonic

(17:57):
the Hedgehog soundtrack.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
I see what you're doing there.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Well, the thing is, what's new with me and our topic
of the week spoiler, sonic theHedgehog is literally.
I dropped like $120 in a flashsale, using my GST check, to own
almost every Sonic the Hedgehoggame ever made on Xbox.
Now, Ah so first I got theSonic Origins Plus Ultra

(18:23):
collection where what they didis they put Sonic 1, 2, 3 and
Knuckles and CD on one game.
They updated them to run amodern hardware.
But they also made it that allthe characters from all four of
them are now playable in allfour of them, so I could play
through the entire originalSonic the Hedgehog trilogy and

(18:44):
CD as Amy if I want.
And then they added all theGameCube games, game Gear games
to it.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
So that's, like I have all the retro games in one
game.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Then I got another bundle that had Sonic Adventure,
sonic Adventure 2, for somereason an arcade fighting game
that just kind of got thrown inthere.
Sonic, a couple other Sonicgames from that era.
And then and then I got the newSonic Generations X, shadow

(19:17):
Generations, which are likeremixes of old games that are
done as cool as humanly possibleso I've been playing just a ton
of Sonic games because I lovethat movie and I think it could
do more wrong, Although,ironically, the Shadows
Generation game is actually acooler version of it.
But they did add in a moviecrossover stage where you use

(19:39):
the character model from themovie as Shadow, and that's one
stage.
He's voiced by Keanu Reevesthis is an actual thing where
it's like because you bought thePremium Edition as part of this
bundle of all the Sonic things,ever enjoy this extra stage
voiced by Keanu Reeves andShibuya and I'm like wait what?
And then Shadow's just like huh, I'm in another world and my

(20:00):
voice sounds sick and then goesoff to be Shadow.
So, that's what I've been up tois unironically playing a crap
ton of Sonic.
So I'm going to start with yourthoughts, then Spoilers we will
be spoiling the Sonic 3 movieIf you haven't already seen it.
Pause this, Go to your theater,watch it.

(20:22):
Unpause it.
Continue you good Caught up,Alright, we're good.
You wouldn't be dying this wayif you started on your vitamins
earlier.
That's probably true, I'm sohappy for the vitamin thing.
I'm going to throw so muchvitamin-related sass at you.
This is just a present for me,but yeah let's start, let's like

(20:45):
travel back in time, sonic theHedgehog's first live action
movie.
What are your thoughts?

Speaker 2 (20:53):
well, I thought it was pretty good.
You know, I I think it's reallyhilarious the whole backlash
against the original design forSonic, which didn't really feel
very video game inspired, andI'm super happy with the changes

(21:18):
that were made, although I'mnot really sure I appreciate the
level of fandom power.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
So here's what's interesting about the first
Sonic movie to me, andappreciate the level of fandom
power.
So here's what's interestingabout the first Sonic movie to
me and on the notion of fandompower.
So I do believe there's acertain extent there's a
difference between listening toyour fans and pandering to it.
So the first Sonic movie wasnot lore accurate Like, let's
look at, say, the Mario PvE orDetective Pikachu.

(21:45):
They went out of their way totry and make those adaptations
close to the source material.
We look at Battle Age of Alitaand Edge of Tomorrow, nearly one
for one to their sourcematerial.
And then when you go in theother direction, like the
live-action Bleach or FullmetalAlchemist movies missed it
completely.
Or Netflix's attempt at a liveaction death note, oh.

(22:07):
But a lot of times adaptationswill either be too close or too
far, like when they did avatarthe last airbender the first
time, and couldn't say, andcorrectly, despite all logic,
but they also like one for oneadapted scenes badly, so there's
no new content in that movie orold content, it's just kind of

(22:29):
bungled both so yeah, sonicmovie, a lot of eyes rolled when
they're like green hills.
Instead of being like the actualgreen hills, they just called
it a random neighborhood andlike who are these humans in my
sonic movie and why do I careabout this police officer?
But the first Sonic moviefigured out something about the
character Sonic that no one elsehad managed to.

(22:50):
They're like we're going to makehim the child in this movie and
pair him with an adult, whenevery other piece of Sonic media
makes him the adult and pairshim with the child.
As an adult he is a terribleadult, but as a child it makes
sense just from, like, sheerdynamics, not really so much
talking about age.
So for sonic movies like okay,it's a buddy cop movie about an

(23:16):
emotionally depressed child.
That is not the adaptation Iwas expecting.
But then they peppered in likeas many like little fan winks
and easter eggs as they could.
We're like okay, you've filledthis with enough Sonic.
It's a weird thing where,instead of him just being hit
and dropping rings like you'dexpect out of the Mario movie,
does that come up with a reasonfor him to be hit and drop rings

(23:37):
To play the ring?

Speaker 2 (23:39):
noise.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
And I'm like, okay, this first movie was
experimental, it was interesting.
But, and I'm like, okay, thisfirst movie was experimental, it
was interesting, but I foundthat they've gotten better.
But what did you think aboutthe first one before we like
move our way along?

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Well, I mean the movie itself, like the first
Sonic game, doesn't really like.
You can read the instructionmanual to get lore, but if
you're just playing the game itdoesn't really have much of a
story and so I I want to followup on that one Hmm.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
So in the Sonic Origins collection, Sonic CD had
like an animated opening to it,so they added an animated
opening and ending to each ofthe Sonic games in the
collection.
Okay, they also got rid oflives completely and instead you
get coins and you can use themto retry the bonus stages if you
fail to get the emerald,because why, would we have lives
.
No one does that anymore.

(24:32):
But like the intro for sonic,one is literally a minute long.
It's eggman shows up, kidnapsanimals, puts them to power
robots.
Sonic stops him.
That's the actual plot of sonicone right felt the need to
reiterate because I had recentlywatched the plot of sonic one
and I'm currently playingthrough it as we speak.

(24:53):
Well, not as we're podcasting.
That'd be amazing.
I'm not that good.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
I'm just saying that there obviously is some lore.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
The lore comes from the spin-off comic books.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
honestly, so for people who just played the game
and didn't even really bother toread the owner's manual I think
that that's probably mostpeople who know of Sonic or
people who are just casual fansI think they did a really good
job of creating a story wherethere wasn't much one in the

(25:27):
first place.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
And I think the thing is too.
They're like okay, we're goingto make a fun family comedy
movie that happens to have Sonic, and it's like they didn't
really pander, which was lovely.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
And they also had self-control.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
So a lot of adaptations will throw literally
every concept really pander,which was lovely and they also
had self-control.
So a lot of adaptations willthrow literally every concept
they have into the movie at onceand it'll sink.
They're like, okay, we're justgoing to have Sonic and Robotnik
.
I mean they had about three toomany human characters.
But you know they really didn'tneed anyone other than cop dude

(26:05):
and cop dude's deputy.
But they're like, oh, we shouldprobably make sure to have cop
dude's wife and cop dude'swife's sister.
I'm like, why is cop dude'swife's sister in this?

Speaker 3 (26:12):
we don't need that we need to make in-law jokes.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Did you need to make in-law jokes?
I don't think you did.
Now, the joke where Sonic'slike which way do I go this way?
And then just comes back withseaweed, that was a good joke.
Like, the idea that Sonic's ona road trip because he just has
no idea where he's going isamazing, because it's true,
sonic would never need a car.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Sonic does not need a car.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
no, Well, it's kind of funny.
Sonic is a character that's areally overpowered fictional
character, so making him chatlike a literal teenager was a
solid move because, like sonicis nerfed by the knowledge that
he is a dumbass.
Yeah, I love when fans givelike a fan argument of like why

(27:01):
didn't he just move so fast?
He stopped time and run up andrip their heart out.
It's like because he didn'tthink of it, because he's stupid
is such good retort.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Right right.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
It's like a death battle thing they never consider
on their show.
It's like, well, we want tohave an optimal and I'm like
Goku doesn't fight optimally.
What are you talking about?
It's like, well, superman couldjust obliterate Goku.
I'm like their fight would beinteresting because Superman
only hits someone exactly ashard as he thinks he can hit
them without them going down,and that specifically powers up
Goku.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
When you do that, right but like anyways, before
you get too much of a tangentthere, I would say overall,
sonic 1 was an excellent loveletter to the series and I think
they knew their target audience.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
That's where I almost disagree.
I think they didn't aim fortheir target audience.
I think they deliberatelywanted to make a new audience.
I'd seen a lot of Sonic things.
The Sonic X anime just straightup adapts the plot from Sonic
Adventure 1 and 2.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
Okay, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Okay, and they easily could have.
If someone told me I waswriting the Sonic movie, I would
have used the Sonic Adventureplot of Eggman's fighting a big
battle against Sonic and hisfriends.
They're already establishedcharacters.
His superweapon backfires andwarps him to the real world
where Eggman learned that'swhere he's really from from his
grandfather, and then a watermonster's been attacking people.
But, like I would just havetaken Sonic Adventure's plot,

(28:25):
which when you link all thecutscenes together is about the
right length, and then filmedthat.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
Right.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
But it's like they didn't really like.
They didn't go for like, howcan I put it?
They went out of their way totry and ground the movie in
realism so their jokes andcomedy would play off better.
It's like we're completelyserious about our setting, which
made the ridiculousness moreridiculous.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Right.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
All right On to the second one, which became a
Marvel movie.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
So I'd say the second Sonic movie in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Opinion better in every way, except for two scenes
.
They need a cut oh they did notneed a dance-off of random
siberian men in russia.
That added nothing yeah, thatwas weird and they did not need
the secret agent marrying the,so they added in these in-law

(29:27):
human character and then gavethe in-law human characters a
wedding scene.
It's like, just because youestablish a character in your
first movie doesn't mean youhave to keep them for your
franchise.
I'm like, wow, that was such achoice.
It's like, imagine in Star Warsif we're like, okay, well,
because we had, oh, I don't know, some random alien that never

(29:51):
comes back, let's go like, oh,because we had Grand Moff Tarkin
in this movie, we need to makesure to give him screen time in
the next movie so we'll have himcome back as a cyborg for some
reason, or like Palpatinesuddenly returns like just
because you'd establish acharacter does not mean they
need to be a thing.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
Right.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
So they just stop for a random, unrelated wedding
rom-com in the middle of thismovie.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
What were your?

Speaker 2 (30:21):
thoughts on the Sonic 2 movie Um what were your?
Thoughts on the Sonic 2 movie.
What um Tails is like?
I went and saw it with myfiance and she thinks that Tails
is like the cutest thing everwell, that's canon.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
I have like thoughts about how Sonic 2 handled Tails,
but it's cause I'm a fanboythat I can't be trusted.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
But I mean, I would tend to agree that it was still
incredibly fun, like the firsttwo Sonic games, like I say,
don't really have that much of athrough line.
It's just like Eggman's turninganimals into robots.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
So what's interesting about Sonic 2, the movie is it
followed the plot of.
Sonic 3, the game.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
Oh really.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
So here's where my quip is what scene they should
have had instead of this wholeSiberian-Russian dance-off that
they found screen time for.
So Tails is like I was spyingon you and I'm here now because
I'm Tails Terrible.
The lore or logic back whenSonic was like an animal planet
thing is Sonic watched thatother foxes were bullying Tails

(31:37):
for two tails and rescues Tails.
Right and I wouldn't have donethat verbatim, because we don't
have animal pals as a thing inthis franchise.
But Sonic saving Tails shouldhave been how Sonic met Tails,
because it kind of sets up theirentire dynamic.
Because Tails is like becausereasons, I was spying on you and
now I'm your best friend.
I'm like no, no, you shouldhave busted Sonic busting Tails

(32:00):
out of Area 51 would have beengreat.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
So it's like you should have like had a scene
setting up Sonic rescuing Tailsor like rescuing Tails from
Knuckles or something Other thanI'm here now and I'm your best
friend and I'm like, no, youmissed something there.
However, that's true.
My counterpoint is like theydid Tails dirty by not giving
him a backstory, but they didKnuckles so well.

(32:27):
I'm just going to balance itout.
So the literal plot of Sonic 3is Eggman tells Knuckles that
Sonic's trying to steal hisemeralds.
You should go get Sonic.
And then Knuckles is like okay.
And then Sonic's like you're anidiot.
Eggman stole the Emeraldbecause we're distracted.
He's like, oh no, but we'regoing to lean into Knuckles
having the most himbo energy onthe planet.
Beautiful, Didn't know that wasthe solution.

(32:48):
It was the solution.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Andrew.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
Zalba.
Knuckles is probably myfavorite character in the
franchise, only in the liveaction In the games, not even a
little bit.
So yeah, but it was a Marvelmovie, like even color-coded
characters with matchinginverted powers in a sky beam.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Also, one of my favorite moments is that when he
goes Super Saiyan, he juststraight-up lasers Robotnik's
giant robot in half and I'm like, did Robotnik just fall from a
thousand?
Did Sonic just straight upmurder this man?
Because Sonic did nothing tonot murder this man.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
Hmm.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
And I'm like, oh okay , I guess Super Sonic's savage.
And then they just used that toset up a hot dog joke Instead
of acknowledging themanslaughter.
But for the record, is itmanslaughter if a hedgehog kills
a man or is it just nature,especially if the man attacks
the hedgehog?

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Uh yeah, I'm pretty sure it's just nature.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Had it coming.
So those are my closingthoughts on Sonic 2.
Do you have any other closingthoughts on Sonic 2?
Uh, no, no, um, my onlythoughts would be going forward
to I don't know if you Do.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
you have any other closing thoughts on Sonic 2?
No, no, my only thoughts wouldbe going forward to I don't know
if you actually watched theKnuckles series.
Yes, and it was my favoritemovie of the series, so here's a
hot take about Knuckles.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
The first two episodes were so bad I almost
gave up, but then the last fourepisodes were like awesomely
amazing so I went into itexpecting garbage and I was
given garbage, but what I wasn'texpecting was garbage that made
me laugh harder than I did atAlways Sunny in Philadelphia.
Like as like an action DisneyPlus style epic no, as one of

(34:46):
the worst things it's like.
It's like deliberately bad, likethe knuckles why are you eating
grapes when your hands don'thave individual fingers?
Bit is so stupid, sobeautifully stupid and like, oh,
we're gonna use the side jokecharacters, the main character
in the spinoff show.
I'm like, oh, you have so muchlore, so much setting, so many

(35:07):
characters and it's the Wade andKnuckles Roll Trip Bowling
series is what you decided onand I'm so happy they could have
like, literally, had it be likea super epic, serious gritty.
Daredevil.
No At.
Had it be like a super epic,serious gritty daredevil?

Speaker 2 (35:25):
No At one point there's a straight-up puppet
show.
It was not serious at all.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
It also didn't overstay its welcome either.
Hmm.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yeah, because it was only like six episodes long.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, it was pretty much like the same length as
we've gotten a Knuckle movie.
Hmm, honestly, you could easilyedit that into a Knuckles movie
, which is where I'm going topause and say something they did
really bad for this moviefranchise.
The most unforgivable sinthey've committed is Sonic the
Hedgehog has had great music for40 years and they refuse to use

(36:03):
any of it till now, and I'm sobitter.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
They'd be like, oh, let's put in a pop track from
Owl.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
City and I'm like what are you doing?
You have your own pop tracks,for for sakes you have I'm using
my F-bomb here for fuck sakes.
You have professionallyproduced rap songs specifically
about Knuckles and you have aKnuckles show and you're not
going to have the Knucklesfreestyle rap play in the
background, are you stupid?

Speaker 2 (36:32):
That's pretty funny.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Because it's like you have your own soundtrack you
own.
That not only is good enoughthat it usually wins most gaming
music awards that it findsitself into, but it was
specifically comprised for thischaracter.
In this situation, it's likeyou have Sonic escaping for a
city with a song labeled SonicEscapes from the City and you're
not going to use it.
You're an idiot.
If they re-released thosemovies, they're like oh yeah, we

(36:56):
use game soundtracks.
Instead, I would re-buy them Onthe spot.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, 100%, it's pretty funny.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
It's just like oi.
That's my mini rant.
I hate when an adaptation justpulls in random pop music or
rock music Like don't beGuardians of the Galaxy, we
don't need Highway to Hellplaying when you have City
Breakdown Shadows.
Lament on your fucking playlist.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
So shadows lament on your fucking playlist.
So the ultimate question,though, now that is what did you
think about Sonic 3?

Speaker 1 (37:33):
so Sonic 3 was sick, undeniably so it did everything
in its power to be cool itdidn't feel as Marvel movie, as
it could have been, and this wasthe one that definitely dug the
diggest of the source materialto be cool.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
It didn't feel as Marvel movie as it could have
been.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
And this was the one that definitely dug the diggest
of the source material, becauseSonic 2 was actually Sonic 3 and
Sonic and Knuckles' plotsmashed together.
It was Sonic and Knuckles,sonic 3, and Sonic 2 all in this
movie.
This movie was basically panelfor panel, sonic Adventure 2.
But not at all, because SonicAdventure 2 is the most
wackadoodle story ever told andthey're like we're going to have

(38:06):
the themes, the characters andthe emotions, but we're not
going to have Tails kidnap thepresident.
I'm like ah, cowards, you'renot going to have Tails in a
mech suit, kidnap the president,you're cowards.
Oh, you're just going to makeyour in a mech suit, kidnap the
president you're cowards.
Oh, you're just going to makeyour movie good.
But what's wild is a lot oftheir choreography and things

(38:29):
they did.
There's so manyblink-and-you-miss-it homages
like literal fight choreographyout of the terrible but truly
entertaining Shout at theHedgehog movie and I don't know
it didn't feel as marvel movieas the last few.
It's like there's no sky beamwell, kind of, but not really.
It's kind of you know how Ireally liked infinity war

(38:53):
because it actually followed thevillain, not the heroes, and
that's where your character wasand your character's just kind
of fed a bit.
I kind of felt that sort ofenergy.
But I'm curious what you think.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Well, I teared up a little bit at the.
You're not a sickle fan, you'rea sickle friend.
Yes, also like this in likesurprisingly hard, more like

(39:29):
this emotional journey betweenthe two characters as, as it's
like, the one is beginning toquestion the stone, is beginning
to question his relationshipwith robotnik.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
They've been slow burning that for three movies
and it's one of the things whereit's like you know, we started
this with some missing panderingto fans versus listening to
fans this is definitely there'sno way.
They planned that to be a threemovie long romance subplot.
Like no way in hell.
But they're like oh, look atall this, like shipping artwork
going on.
It's like do we do it, let's doit.

(39:58):
But you know how, like dei is abuzzword, I'm like no, no, no,
no, no.
They're just following theirnatural flow of how these
stories should go.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Whether they planned any of this.
There's no way they planned up.
Well, in the second movie theydrop Shadow the Hedgehog, so I
guess like they planned thethird one.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Right.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
But like it's also kind of wild, they got to Shadow
in the third movie because hewas in like the 30th game.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
20th game that's fair , I'd have to do math.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
I'm not going to do math yeah well.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
So then, like I say, overall, I thought it was a
pretty good movie with a lot.
It was very, I don't know.
I didn't really get muchemotional resonance from, uh,
sonic's storyline or but, butrobotnik and stone, that one

(40:58):
gots me well, it's kind of funny, like I kind of mentioned this
where it's like yeah, no, thiswas Robotnik's movie.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
weirdly, it's just an interesting note to be like we
got Robotnik, we got him meetinghis grandfather, we got him
getting his own Sonic.
Everything's coming up,robotnik.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
So he kind of arced in this movie.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
That's alright.
But so movie Um, but so I meanhashtag spoilers, he, I mean, I
guess it's almost the same thingthat happened in the last movie
, where he gets, you know,dropped from extreme height and
he's probably dead, but thenhe's somehow not when.
But they obviously sequel,baited it with the post credit
scene.
And you said that Jim Carreysigned on for the next movie so

(41:50):
here's the thing.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
So Marvel's biggest problem is it just kills off its
villains before you can reallybuild them up.
Dc's problem is it won't killits villains or it'll reboot the
same plot threads.
So there's a billion ways.
The billionaire tech genius whohas G's?
Problem is it won't kill itsvillains or it'll reboot the
same spot.
Threads Right.
So there's a billion ways thebillionaire tech genius who has
teleporting rings in his pocketcould have escaped seeming death
, Like there's some charactersyou just kind of give Team

(42:14):
Rocket privilege to.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
Robotnik I give Team Rocket privilege to and I
wouldn't give him Team Rocketprivilege if characters grieved
him.
Because that's the thing, whenyou have characters get sad and
you get death baited, I hatethat.
When you have characters belike, eh whatever, he's probably
dead, I'm weirdly on board.
It's not like Sonic is cryingat his funeral.
Sonic doesn't believe he'sreally dead either.
No one does Guy's hard to kill.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Fair.
So, I'm completely fine withthat.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
But it's like the original game, actually death
baited Shadow, where theyweren't sure if they were going
to use the character again.
So, Shadow straight up.
Dies at the end of SonicAdventure 2.
Spoilers.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
And then the Shadow the Hedgehog game.
They give 10 alternatetimelines of how we could have
survived, but doesn't commit toany of them, I see, until I
played the Shadows Generationsgame last week, where it's a
game that homages all ofShadow's biggest moments from
the four video games he's beenin.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
And it's through time travel shenanigans.
It's like, oh wow, this isactually a really good plot, but
mostly you just have Shadow doreally cool things.
It's like we didn't give him adedicated teleport and spin kick
button, but like, yeah, when itcomes to sequel baiting.
So first off, I love the ideathat they released Sonic 3 and

(43:38):
Knuckles for the sole reasonthat when it comes out on DVD,
they can sell Sonic 3 andKnuckles as a game again.
Right, that was the entirepoint, by the way, of the
Knuckles series is.
So they could release a DVDlabeled Sonic 3 and Knuckles and
that is objectively correct,and it'll probably have the box

(44:01):
art of Sonic 3 and Knuckles onit.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
That would be hilarious.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
What's wild is that, like you enjoyed the movie
enough, but I'm going to put aweird context for you.
Can you think of a third moviein a trilogy that did a better
job being a third movie?

Speaker 2 (44:21):
That did a better job .
Being a third movie, becauselike.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
Return of the.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Jedi, not my favorite by the stretch of the
imagination, return of the Kingneeded to end two endings
earlier yeah, return of the Kingwas just way too long.
Iron man 3.
Bad Cap 3.
Bad Thor 3 good long Iron man 3?
Bad Cap 3?

(44:46):
Bad Thor 3?
Good, but Marvel's kind ofweird because they kind of stop
being trilogies when you havehundreds of movies and all the
characters show up in all ofthem.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
That is definitely true.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
But yeah like.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
They're like, they're really like.
It's so rare for a sequel to beas good as the original.
Because, yeah, like thirdMatrix movie.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
It's pretty rough.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
The third Shrek movie .

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Rise of Skywalker.
Robocop 3.
I assume the third Fifty Shadesmovie was bad.
It just feels like a safe bet.
Hangover 3.
Superman 3.
Dark Knight Return ReturnsBlade.
Third movies tend to drop that.
Hangover three.
Superman three.
Dark night return returns blade.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Third movies tend to drop well, yeah, and see, now
I'm trying to think, let's, ifwe just look up a list of
trilogies I think I hit all thebig ones there in my little mini
rant spider-Man 3 twice, x-men3 three times.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
That's got to be like some sort of dark magic, but
other than just saying things inmultiples of three.
My question for you, though, isdo you think this should have a
fourth movie?
Like, how long do we want to?
Because, on one hand, they have30 years straight of stacked up
source material to pull fromright but on the other hand, I

(46:31):
don't know, did we just kill itand call it a day?
Do you think it justified afourth movie?

Speaker 2 (46:40):
I do, like they had a fourth character, like I don't
think it justifies a fifth movie, uh, but having the fourth
character, amy, and eachcharacter getting a movie where
they're introduced, I don't knowI, I uh see, the structure is

(47:02):
weird.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
I don't think it's terrible because, like I was
mentioning of like how I wouldhave approached it, I would have
like introduced amy, like thismovie, and then the next movie
would have been the Shadow movie, but also this, let them kind
of tie back to the ProfessorEggman government things.
It was like okay, because theirgoal was to try and ground this

(47:25):
franchise.
Shadow was a good plot deviceto ground it more Earth-based,
until they get to the fact thatShadow was an alien selling a
Farsean bargain with Robotnik'sdad to try and save his dying
daughter.
Did they bring up the alienthing?
I don't think they did.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
Sorry, who's an alien ?

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Oh Shadow has alien DNA.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
Oh, okay, that would make sense.
I don't think they brought thatup.
They just said that Shadow hadno idea what his history was.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
That tracks, but like long story short, is the
structure's different than how Iwould have done it, where I
would have went Sonic 1, 2, and3, and then literally called the
next one like Shadow theHedgehog, because it's always
like the ice cream paradox.
I'm an adult, I can just ordera Blizzard right now Doesn't

(48:14):
mean I should.
But I also feel like they'vebranched out enough that it's
like they haven't quite paid offthings.
I want to see them pay off, butI also don't like infinitely
expending multiverses of stuff.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Right, I don't know.
I think the fourth movie shouldbe the last.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
That's a weird number of movies to end on.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
It is a weird number of movies to end on.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
Like I would give them six.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
What would you even want to see in the other two
more movies after that?

Speaker 1 (48:56):
So the next one would be Amy and Metal Sonic usually
go in as a duo and win theirthings.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
They'd go Amy and Metal Sonic, they would go Chaos
, emeralds and actually deepdive into the lore of what's
going on there, and then they'dwrap it up so it's like four
would be the Amy movie, fivewould be the lore movie.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
Are you saying that they would break the last movie
up into a two-parter?

Speaker 1 (49:32):
They have to, they're not allowed not to.
I don't make the law.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
One, two, three, four and then five.
Part one, five part two, andthat'll be it.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Pretty much Like size aside, there's just a lot of
places they haven't warped toyet, like there's a fair number
of Sonic quote-unquotecharacters they could add in,
but they basically have the corecast they need now.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
Right.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Sonic Knuckles Tails Amy and then Shadow.
Being edgy in the differentsense is usually how it goes.
I don't think they need Rougethe Bat, let's be honest.
They don't need Rouge the Bat.
Let's be honest, they don'tneed Rouge the Bat or Big the
Cat, we'll be fine.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
Big the Cat.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Big the Cat.
He's looking for his froggy.
That's absolutely the one Iwould do for the fifth movie.
It's like how the ChaosEmeralds have a weird jelly
monster named Chaos that absorbsall the Emermerals to spite
them.
It's like the plot of.
Sonic Adventure 1 is like whereI would wrap up the movie
weirdly, because the playablecharacters in that who each got

(50:41):
their own plot arc.
Sonic gets a plot arc, tailsgets a plot arc, knuckles gets a
plot arc.
Amy gets a plot arc, big the Catgets a plot arc Gotta get that
Big the Cat in here.
And a robot like one ofRobotnik's robot soldiers gets a
plot arc.
So that's what happened inAdventure.
And then all those plots webthemselves together to the final

(51:03):
epic goodness.
So it covers.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Rebels as tribe.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
It covers the Chaos Emeralds.
It covers that is where I wouldprobably try and build up to,
but I'd probably.
It covers the cast emeralds.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
It covers da-ba-da-ba-da-ba.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
That is where I would probably try and build up to,
but I'd probably release therandom robot and just use Shadow
instead, because he's in thisnow.
But also, unlike adaptations,like I was saying at the start
of the episode, they actuallywrite these movies.
So I have no idea how many theydeserve Because they're
actually writing new movies, soI don't know what's going to be
in them.
Like, don't get me wrong, theygot the dramatic live and learn

(51:39):
with Super Sonic and HyperShadow doing the live and learn
thing, which is why I'm like,hey, you know that really cool
movie you had that we all liked.
Yeah, use your movie, use yourown music.
We don't need any music fromthe beach boys in here.
Ugh, I mean, I understand whythey want to do the wouldn't it

(52:04):
be nice thing and it washilarious.
But they have their own songfor that.
Rah, rah, yeah, yeah, that's itfor that.
Rawr, rawr, yeah, yeah, that'sit.
Also, their homage to Chow'sbeing just a theme restaurant
was stupid and I'll allow it.
Also, you know how I mentionedthat they keep adding characters

(52:25):
and now we need to keep makingsure we use them, no matter what
.
Olive Garden Breadsticks guygot a major role in this movie.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah, I mean Okay, actually I have another question
for you before we wrap thingsup.
My first question Is the scenewhere the cop guy gets punched
by Shadow because he's disguisedas all of garden breast guy.

(52:56):
Yeah, what?
Why did they need to steal thekey from her to stop Robotnik
from stealing it like?
That seems kind of confused me,because it was just like it

(53:18):
felt like a contrived way tohave police officer guy get
punched by Shadow.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
So it was a contrived thing for police officer guy to
get punched by Shadow.
That's it.
As I mentioned, it's weird tome how much, how committed they
are to their human characters,whose names none of us will
remember uh.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
But so then my other question is I believe I
mentioned this in the previousepisode where I had watched
sonic 3, uh, but uh, a lot ofthe I don't know if it was just
comedic timing or if it wasaudio timing or whatever, but
Sonic's lines in particular, tome they sounded like slightly

(54:01):
off.
I'm just wondering if you havefelt that or if it was just like
me being weird or like.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
I didn't notice that, but I might have just been in a
nicer theater.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Fair, I do live in Saskatchewan, so I didn't notice
that, but I might have justbeen in a nicer theater.
Fair, I do live in Saskatchewan.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
So Unrelated, there being a secret base under the
Mean Bean Cafe, which is anhomage to a game called Dr
Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine,makes me happy, specifically,
and probably just me.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
Right, like so.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
I'm still trying to decide if I thought the
Operation Catfish bit like soI'm still trying to decide if I
thought the Operation Catfishbit from the second movie.
I'm like this did not need tohappen.
I'm like, but was the bit thatfunny that they just had a?
Completely, it's like inretrospect as a whole I almost
enjoy how pointless that wasright, right also they straight

(54:52):
up killed breadsticks guy.
Joy, how pointless that.
Was Right, right Also theystraight up killed Breadstick's
guy yeah, and I don't think he'scoming back.
I don't think Breadstick's guygets immortality.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
Probably not.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
But yeah, now that I've finished, what are your
final thoughts?
Because I've decided I want sixSonic movies with two more
miniseries.
I want a Shadow of the Hedgehog.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Six Sonic movies, with two more.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
I want the Shadow of the Hedgehog miniseries that's
taken completely seriously, likeit's a John Wick movie as he
goes through his fractured pastand goes off and murders aliens,
and I want him to take itcompletely seriously and have a
comically high budget and justbe attached to this wacky little
thing.
I don't want there to be asingle joke in Shadow the
Hedgehog and that's the joke.
I want him to just motorcyclethrough a window, kill two

(55:50):
people with the motorcyclemachine gun three more and walk
out covered in blood, completelystraight-faced as serious.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
That would be pretty funny.

Speaker 1 (55:59):
That is in fact the joke, fun fact in the Shadow the
Hedgehog game, because they'restill working on like what age
rating was going to be.
If you hack into the game, youcan find the vocal lines of
Shadow, just straight-upswearing Holy.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
That's pretty funny.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Say like you're fucking dead, as a line that
comes out of Shadow, theHedgehog's mouth in the Shadow,
the Hedgehog game.
And then, at the last minute,they're like maybe we shouldn't.
They're like oh you cowards, Ifyou're gonna be comically edgy,
for edgiest sake go all in.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
That's all I'm saying well, my final thoughts about
this Sonic the live action,sonic the Hedgehog Universe is
that overall they're a lot offun and, as someone who only
ever played the games and didn'tdo any read any of the extra

(56:54):
material, I think they feelfresh and they defy the mold for
video game adaptations, becausemost of them are just terrible.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yeah, because my final thoughts are the same,
where it's like they took a lotof big swings.
Some of them worked, some ofthem didn't, but, like someone
on the writing staff said thephrase, we need Wade Wilson to
hallucinate a bunch of Knuckles'ancestors in a musical number
about the flames of disaster,and they were allowed to do that

(57:29):
.
No one stopped them from doingthat.
That blows my mind.
I am so happy that no onestopped them.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
And then when he awakens the flames of disaster
in the finale.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Which is a reference to the terrible Xbox game.
By the way, the worst Sonicgame of all time the main
villain was the flames ofdisaster.
And they're like yeah, we'rejust going to call this power
that.
Oh man, because, yeah, tldrother than the Siberia dance
party being a weird, weird,weird choice, it's just been

(58:08):
golden.
Also, I love that high-list,a-list celebrities are like do
you want to do Disney or Marvel?
And they're like no, do youlike?
Do you want to be knuckles withevery fiber of my being?
Like I watched an interviewbetween keanu reeves and edris
ellen's.
Like my knuckle voice is downhere and silly, and then you
just walk.
You're like I'm keanu reeves,completely seriously.

(58:28):
I'm like what the fuck?
Where's your knuckles voice?
He's like no, no, shadow's notmy voice, it's my voice with
more pain.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
I just love the idea that in an interview.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
Keanu Reeves I'm paraphrasing a bit was basically
like yeah, no when I play JohnWick, I channel less pain than I
do as Shadow.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
That's pretty funny, Like did they even have to pay
these guys?
Or were they like, hey, do youwant to be sad with the Hedgehog
?
And they're just, yes, Iobviously do.
It's like that effect of peopleactually happy with what
they're in.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Hmm.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
And I know they're actors and they're probably
making it, but Although I dothink, it's wild that they
decided to go with two JimCarrey's, where in the original
game, gerald Robotnik was just aseries of shaky audio logs from
a dude in a straight jacketwith a bunch of math symbols
carved into the wall in his ownblood.
Did I mention how edgy SonicAdventure was for no reason,

(59:39):
Like I wanted them to use thedeath laser to blow off a chunk
out of the moon.
They weren't going to do it,but I wanted it.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
They did blow off a chunk of the moon.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
They didn't blow off enough of the moon and they
didn't blow up the White House,which is a thing that happens in
Shadow of the Hedgehog, is thedeath laser just blows up the
White House, cowards.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Well, okay, that would have been yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
That would have just been Truly ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Much bolder.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
I respect it.
They went as far as they couldyeah, they could, oh did your
theater cheer when the littlegirl died?
When the little girl died sowhen Maria gets shot off screen
well, semi on screen apparently.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
In early release screenings that were full of
Sonic fans all the fans cheeredreally so it's not that Sonic
fans no one cheered in mytheater, so it's not that Sonic
fans.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
So it's not that Sonic fans hate Maria Robotnik.
They love the idea of MariaRobotnik dying in a Sonic movie.
It's like they love thatthey're willing to murder this
child in the Sonic the Hedgehogmovie hmm, that's it that's the

(01:00:56):
hot take, and with that I thinkwe go into our random questions
which I need.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Alright, what is our random question?

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
where is it?
Oh, it was a good one buffering, buffering, buffering,
buffering.
Oh yes, this is it.
Oh, it was a good one Buffering, buffering, buffering,
buffering.
Oh yes, this is it.
Ha ha, this one was handed tome in person and could be a full
episode, but I'll try and getthrough it quickly Okay.
If each captain of the Gotai 13had to be a Pokemon gym leader,

(01:01:30):
what would their type be?

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Each captain.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
So, I'm pulling up my list of numbered Bleach
captains to make this easy forus.
So I'll shoot off names andwe'll agree on their type.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
So we have Captain Old man, fire have Captain Old
man.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Fire Captain Old, obviously he's got to be fire
type.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Maybe ghost, but fire , fire is correct.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Next we have.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Soy.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Vaughn the Ninja Captain, I'm feeling and if we
use one up, we can't use itlater so we have to be careful,
because my instinct was to giveher poison.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Well, I mean, isn't she pretty obviously yeah,
pretty obviously poison, right?

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
But I think there's a better poison candidate down
the line, so I kind of want togive her bug.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Because I like the one that's sting and things Like
.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
I can see her having a bee drill.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
That's kind of in her color palette yeah, yeah, okay,
okay, alright, I'll accept bugalright, next up, we have stupid
wiki.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
No, I don't want their current lineup, I want
their original lineup.
I have to pull up another wiki,that wiki failed me.
I'm like no one knows who thatwiki failed okay.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Okay, now I found a better list.
I'm like no one knows who hefailed okay okay, now I found a
better list.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
Captain Eats your Face.
Sanjin Komomoro, I'm feelingnormal the.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
he's the wolf guy, right, the dog man, I'm feeling
normal, I'm gonna normal.
Yeah, I'm gonna, I think so.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
Captain Eisen.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
Captain Eisen.

Speaker 3 (01:03:23):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Either ghost or psychic.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
I'll go with psychic, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Captain Tuberculosis.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
I'm gonna give him water.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
Captain.

Speaker 3 (01:03:37):
Tuberculosis.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Captain Jishiro Ukitake, I'm feeling water, like
he never really does his thing,but I feel like his swords are
like called like wave somethingor something or other, I don't
know.
He seems like.
He seems like a melodic kind ofguy.
He also has Master hand insidehim, so you could go that
direction well, what type wouldyou give it to master hand

(01:04:03):
fighting?
Dark.
I think this was like the evil,glowy version of it yeah, maybe
we should give uki take dark,all right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Next we have captain freak show.
Uh, yeah, maybe we should giveUkitake Dark Alright.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
Next we have Captain Freak Show, Mayuri Kurosuchi
Poison.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Is he your candidate for poison?

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
He's a giant poisonous baby and stabs you
with his poison sword to poison.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
That is definitely true.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
Next one's an easy one, captain Hitsugaya, the one
with the ice dragon.
Oh yeah, he's obviously icetype.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Yeah, yeah, he's definitely ice type this one's a
little trickier, captain.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
I'm Better Than you, captain.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
Byakuya Kuchiki the the head of the Gotai 13 after
old man dies.
No, that's Captain HippieKuwakuchki, the head of the
Gotai 13 after Old man dies.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
No, that's Captain Hippie, captain Hippie.
No, this one's Captain.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Historian to.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
Flower Petals.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Oh, byakuya, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Obviously he needs to be grasstype.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
I can get behind that , he seems to know Razor Leaf.
Next is Captain Hippie.
I'm the grass that he seems toknow, razor Leaf.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Next is Captain Hippie.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
I kind of want to give him Ghost.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Captain Hippie.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
I remember his attack makes you commit suicide,
either Ghost or Fairy.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
I think I lean more towards.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Ghost fairy?
Hmm, I think I lean moretowards ghost.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Okay, I mean unless you have a hot take, but that's
kind of where I'm at.
It's like he has a techniquewhere if you step on his shadow,
it stabs you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Well, it's like based on Japanese children's games
which are kind of creepyghostiness weirdly.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
Oh wow, him having a phantom is actually really funny
in that context.
In like a drift, like, like histheme would literally just be
like pokemon, that should be ona danger list.
It's like this is oh yeah, likenimq and yeah like Mimikyu and
A Rotom just cuz.

(01:06:14):
Next we have Captain RetsuUnahata, or Captain Medic, who
has a giant floating jellyfishything and is also a horrific
murderer, when it came down toit.
Yeah, I don't know like if Ididn't already hand psychic to

(01:06:37):
Aizen.
I don't know, I feel likepsychic or fairy, like she seems
like she'd have a chancy.
I was gonna say fairy it's likeshe'd have a chancy and then
she'd have like a grim snarl orsomething.
Yeah, I think she would befairy type Kimpachi, like a
Grimmsnarl or something.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
Yeah, I think she would be fairy type.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
Kimpachi the most fighting fighting to ever
fighting, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Sorry, there was a bit of a lag spike.
Who was the captain?
Kimpachi Kimpachi?
Oh yeah, definitely fightingtype.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
All right, just double checking this list to see
if we got them all.
Oh, yeah, definitely fightingtype.
Alright, just double-checkingthis list to see if we got them
all.
Oh, captain Tozin, sorry, whoCaptain?

Speaker 3 (01:07:25):
Tozin the one who left with Aizen oh.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
I'm kind of running out of Pokemon.
Well, I mean Because like Ireally would have given him.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
Bug-Type, if I didn't already give out Bug-Type,
because he like turns like adeath grasshopper-y thing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Let's see Darkness would also.
Dark-type would also be funny.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
It's true.
Who did we give Dark-Type to?
Already we gave it to.
Did we give it to anyone?
Captain tuberculosis all right,so let's take it back away from
him and give it to the personwho makes a dome of darkness
specifically like it's a littletoo on point, definitely.
Especially.
I kind of love the idea of likethe blind, dark type pokemon

(01:08:11):
fighting in complete Likethere's a certain vibe going on
there, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
We have.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
I think I'll give captain tuberculosis water type
Cause I said so.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
And lastly, we have Ichimaru.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Well, okay, we gave poison to captain freak show
which is fair but like gin rightlike he was the vice captain,
wasn't he?

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
yeah, uh, he was the captain.
He was also like the long conof murdering the Aizen, so it's
like giving him snakebowl makessense.
But also like I kind of want togive him steel type for his
kilometer long sword, but likewe only have so much poison,

(01:09:17):
because it's like CaptainFreakshow would have like the
mucks and the weezings and youhave like the snakes and things.
I think like it'd be a toughcall which one gets poisoned out
of the two of them.
So I'm gonna just give themsteel, because I got nothing
better yeah, okay, that's fair.
And I think we answered ourquestion.
We got handed Our weirdlyspecific one.

(01:09:39):
I did not do this in a Captainnumber order because these lists
were inconsistent and they'relike do you want to use the
Wizard?
And I'm like the Wizard gotlike five minutes of screen time
total among all of them.
No, no, I do not want to givesome themed Pokemon types.
I refuse.
But with that, thank you foreveryone for tuning into Deep

(01:10:03):
Space and Dragons, sometimespresented by Carl, sometimes
presented by Richard, often both.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
And most of the time both.
I'm pretty sure I've been onevery episode.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
But to follow up with our like.
Closing remark I have books.
You could buy them.
I'm not really that investedright now.
However, before you're pro oranti-vitamins, please talk to a
healthcare professional.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Right, right, right.
I mean mean, like you know,don't, don't listen to me I, I'm
just spewing garbage and alsoI'm I'm taking the vitamins
because you know science, itjust corporate greed annoys me
bye, there we go.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
Oh man, as you come in swinging hard, like you know
what's some bullshit science.
What well do we really know?
What vitamins do I mean?
I don't personally, but I'msure I can find a cell diagram
for you like I don't know.
It seems like you have to belike a cult to be a scientist.
I'm like I see where you'recoming from, but if this ends in

(01:11:16):
US politics I'm gonna have toclick the pause button.
It's like, literally, factcheckers were considered unfair
to one side of the democraticprocess because they were so
dependent on lies.
So I might be like correctinginto being super pro science,
because science is repeatable bydefinition and if science is

(01:11:36):
wrong they update the science.
But I'm not super pro-companyselling you science.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
Right.
It's like I'm pro-science butI'm not sure how pro-supplements
I am Fair Like if you were totell me oh, my fiance is making
me drink cod liver oil, I'd belike I am Fair.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
Like if you were to tell me, oh, my fiance is making
me drink cod liver oil, I'd belike, okay, but maybe check with
a doctor.
It's probably fine.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
Hmm.