Deep Thoughts about The Little Mermaid

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In 1989, 13-year-old Tracie and 10-year-old Emily got to witness the Disney renaissance in real time when they saw The Little Mermaid in the theater. The Guy girls were captivated by the unparalleled animation, the show-stopping musical numbers, and the unexpected sight of their stepdad tearing up at the end. But underneath the beautifully constructed film was the uncomfortable lesson that Ariel gave up her voice for a man. But as Tracie shares in this week’s episode, that’s not the only way to look at this adaptation of Hans Christian Andersen’s fairy tale/allegory for unrequited gay love. The sisters talk about how Disney gave Ariel the happy ending that Andersen couldn’t imagine in his lifetime and that many trans GenXers and Millennials saw themselves in the mermaid who dreams of being human. The film still has problems with consent, fatphobia, and underage marriage–but contextualizing the movie makes it feel better to sing along.

Don’t be a poor, unfortunate soul! Take a listen to this episode!

TW: discussions of parental abuse, nonconsent, and fatphobia.

Mentioned in this episode:

The commentator who defended Ariel by saying she gave consent by proxy

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.

We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com

We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I don't know if it's a willow tree or what, but like
the curtain partying and theflamingos and the you know the
like frogs, like I love it, yeah, yeah, and also oh ouch, what
others might deem stupid shit,you know matters, you know it's
worth talking and thinking about, and so do we.

(00:21):
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the Guy
Girls out, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the Guy
Girls.
Every week, we take turnsre-watching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time

(00:41):
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes and thanks.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Today I'll be bringing my deepthoughts about the 1989 animated
classic, the Little Mermaid,with my sister and with you.

(01:05):
Let's dive in.
And this is one of thosefoundational texts, so I don't
have to ask you if you've seenit.
But, like, what's in your headabout the Little Mermaid?
Give me the highlights.
Like I don't need every singlething, because we only have an
hour but give me the highlight.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
So a couple things um the music, um part of your
world is is a song that's inthere, um as in les poissons,
les poissons, because anythingfrench that's, as is les
poissons, yeah.
Yeah, and kiss the girl, andunder the sea I mean, it's just

(01:48):
banger after banger.
So I've got that in my head.
I know that I loved it as a kid.
And then I read, after havingseen the movie, I read the
original Hans Christian Andersenstory, which broke my heart and

(02:11):
I wasn't sure how I felt abouthow Disney had changed it.
I really have a strong memoryof our stepfather took us to see
this movie in the theater andhim getting teary eyed at the
end about, like this, you know,mermaid daughter being gone

(02:34):
forever because she she marriesa human.
And now, as a parent watchingit is like, well, I haven't seen
it recently, but like now, as aparent thinking about that
moment, I'm just like, yeah, Idon't know if I would, I would
be teary-eyed.
So, um, just because kingtriton is kind of an abusive

(02:59):
father and you know it's her,her leaving is an escape, not a
triumph.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Anyway, Okay, I'm not sure I would agree with that
characterization.
Yeah All right, yeah All right.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
And then, of course, ursula, who is just iconic.
I'm just, she's just an amazingcharacter, just iconic, she's
just an amazing character.
So, yeah, there's a lot inthere.
I mean, that's just off the topof my head, okay, so why are we

(03:37):
talking about it today?

Speaker 1 (03:41):
I mean it is a foundational text, but it is a
foundational text and, like you,I also associate it with our
stepdad.
A lot of our movies.
Regular listeners know a lot ofthe movies.
Like you, I also associate itwith our stepdad.
A lot of our movies.
Regular listeners know a lot ofthe movies that we talk about
we associate with our dad.
This one definitely has strongassociations with our stepfather
.
I loved this movie so so much,like so much the music, just all
of it.

(04:01):
And when my daughter was bornshe's 12 and we were starting to
like, you know, when she waslittle, and we would use the TV
to like distract her, so I could, you know, use the bathroom.
Um, you know, thinking aboutwhat to put on for her, this one

(04:23):
, I actually put the kibosh onbecause I didn't like at least
the surface messages that thischild gives up her voice for a
man.
So my daughter actually stillhas never seen it.
So my daughter actually stillhas never seen it and I also and

(04:51):
I had kind of like just pushedit away for a long time and I
recently heard of some folks inthe trans community kind of
feeling affinity for Ariel andthat made me kind of want to
re-look it and just just look atit more deeply than just oh,
she gives up her voice for a manwhich is not untrue, but but is

(05:13):
not a nuanced view of whathappens, and so I just I wanted
to give it just a little bitmore.
It is such a foundational textI mean under the sea and um, the
, the and the song Under the Seaand Part of your World are both
like so baked in that thelyrics come up sometimes like in
just in, as a coming of age andhow I wish it were handled

(05:36):
differently about it in contextin the late 80s and the sort of
fallow period of of disney thatthis was coming out of, and

(06:10):
ariel in comparison to what hadbeen before.
Like I, I want to put her incontext.
I want to talk about the hanschristian anderson story and the
allegory that it was for himand what the changes, what the
changes made, what differencethose made.
And I do want to talk aboutUrsula and sort of what messages

(06:34):
we're getting from her, andwe'll talk about the
father-daughter dynamic, whichis not healthy For certain, not
healthy for certain.
Not healthy, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure I wouldcharacterize it as abusive,
though there are moments ofabuse, which is a nuanced

(06:56):
distinction and maybe won't holdup, but but we'll, we'll get
there.
We'll get there.
I also want to be clear with ourlisteners.
I am just talking about the1989 animated version.
So this is not I did.
I have.
I actually have not seen themore recent live action version,
which I understand did makesome changes to maybe address
some of the things that I'mgoing to bring up.

(07:17):
I will watch that, but I havenot yet.
So just to be very, very clear,before we get there, let me
give a synopsis of the plot Onceagain.
I have Wikipedia up on my otherscreen so that maybe it can
keep me from meandering.
We'll see, We'll see.
So the movie opens on this bigproduction under the sea, under

(07:44):
the Atlantic Ocean, in thekingdom of Atlantica, where we
meet King Triton.
He's pulled into his throneroom.
It's like this big musicalnumber.
He's pulled into this throneroom with dolphins pulling this
giant shell think like birth ofVenus type giant shell and he's
a merman with a big beard thatsometimes covers his nipples,

(08:08):
but not always.
I was surprised by the numberof like visible male nipples in
this movie.
To be honest.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Well, like that's the thing, king Triton can get it.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
He's built, he is built.
Anyway, he's very much a merdaddy.
So so, right after meeting kingtriton, we we meet his composer

(08:46):
, like musical composer andcourt, I don't know, courtesan
Sebastian, who has a much, muchlonger name.
Sebastian's his last name.
He's a crap, and he speaks withthis sort of Jamaican accent.
And this is going to be theintroduction of Triton's
youngest daughter, ariel, hermusical debut.
Her sisters all like sing thesong where they name their names

(09:07):
and then but none of uscompared to our sister Ariel.
And then her Venus of birth, ofVenus, clamshell opens.
She's not there.
So we caught to where she is.
She is with her best friend,flounder, who is a the bulbous
fish who has the voice of achild, and they are exploring a

(09:27):
shipwreck and she picks up afork, they run away from a shark
, they go and find up to thesurface and find a seagull named
Scuttle to identify the humanstuff that she has um gotten
from the shipwreck, including afork and a pipe, which he

(09:51):
misidentifies as uh.
I can't remember what he callsthe fork, but the pipe is a
snarf plat which he like blowsinto uh and says it's a musical
instrument like a dinglehopperor something like that, yes, a
musical instrument like adinglehopper or something like
that.
Yes, yes, that's it adinglehopper and the fork.
The dinglehopper, he says, is ahairbrush, yeah, and that

(10:11):
humans use it to um, to styletheir hair.
So when?
So ariel remembers she wassupposed to be at the music
thing, she we see her in thethrone room.
She's apologizing, she's beingreprimanded.
Flounder tries to defend herwith the fact that they were
running from sharks andaccidentally names that they
went to see scuttle with thehuman stuff.

(10:33):
And the triton is like superfreaked out, like clearly he's
dealing with some old trauma,unhealed trauma, because's like
forbids her from going to theservice because the humans are
barbarians and they're dangerous.
And it's it's like clear fearresponse from from King Triton

(10:53):
and Triton and Sebastian arespeaking after Ariel has left
and Sebastian is tasked withoverseeing Ariel to make sure
that she stays safe.
So, somewhat resentfully, hefollows her, ends up in this
grotto, this underwater cavewhere she has all of her human

(11:14):
stuff, where she sings part ofthat world.
And she's got like just all,like, like so much, this huge
collection of of human things,and she sings and it's the
lyrics want to stress.
The lyrics are so delightful,like with the insertion of like.
She struggles over the wordsfor things that merpeople don't

(11:35):
have, like feet and legs, andburn, like what is a fire and
why does it?
What's the word burn, which isjust, it, just.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Oh, it just works.
It's a Howard Ashman, isn't it?
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yes, ariel Ends up.
Ariel ends up at the surfaceone night the boat goes over the
, like the top of her grotto.
So she goes up to see what itis and she it's the.
It's a.
She goes up to see what it isand it's a royal boat where

(12:13):
there's a birthday celebrationfor Prince Eric.
That she kind of like climbs upon the edge of the deck like
hanging off and like watches andshe sees him interacting with
his dog Max.
Sees him, eric, prince Ericinteracting with his dog Max.
And she is smitten with him.
Enter a hurricane.
I mean okay, and the ship istossed and because of the

(12:34):
fireworks that were on board forthe celebration, like the ship
is destroyed.
Eric, the sailors get into thelifeboat and Eric does too, but
the dog is still on the boat.
So Eric goes back to save thedog and ends up in the water.
Ariel saves him and gets him uponto shore and is singing to

(12:58):
him as he starts to return toconsciousness.
And then she slips off into thewater before they actually
interact much at all in order toavoid detection because, um, I
don't know what he is like avalet, grimsby eric's valet is
coming.
He's an old man and is likelooking for her, for for him,
for eric, and and is coming, andso ariel slips away to avoid

(13:20):
detection.
So she's like mooning about andher sisters are like, wow,
she's got it bad.
And Triton's like got what bad,you know?
And so Triton believes thatAriel has a crush on a merman
based on what his otherdaughters have said.
So he confronts Sebastianplayfully, like he wants to know

(13:41):
who is this lucky merman.
And Sebastian, with the waythat he does it, he says I know
that she's in love.
And Sebastian thinks that heactually knows about the, the
adventure to the surface, andends up telling him uh, even
though he didn't know.
And he, triton, freaks the fuckout and has the one moment that

(14:03):
I think actually is truly abuse, uh, where he goes to her
grotto and destroys all herstuff.
Yeah and um, that destructionof a child's property is a thing
that we that I think happens.
It happens where parents thinkthey're teaching a lesson and

(14:25):
that I will say out loud that'sabusive and props to the
animators, because as he leaveswe see that he knows that, if
not, that he went too far.
He knows that he has hurt herand we know it through his

(14:46):
facial expression of a blesseddrawing.
Yeah, and like, wow, like, forreals, wow.
So in the sort of aftermath ofthis traumatic moment for her,
flotsam and jetsam, the two eelswho are minions of Ursula the

(15:06):
Sea Witch, come and talk toAriel and say you know, we know
someone who could help you.
And initially Ariel's like no,I don't want to have anything to
do with the Sea Witch, butthese two eels are very clever
and as they're leaving they sayit was just a suggestion and
sort of flick the face of therehad been this statue of Prince

(15:27):
Eric.
That was really ridiculous,that Eric didn't like.
But whatever it came down,flounder brought it into her.
I don't know how the tiny fishbrought the giant statue into
her grotto, but somehow Floundermanaged to get the statue into
her grotto.
Into her grotto, uh, triton haddestroyed it, but like the face

(15:49):
was intact.
And one of the eels kind offlicks it at her where she's um
sitting, you know, mourning thethe loss of her stuff, and so
that's what convinces her.
So she goes off with the twoeels, flounder and sebastian try
to convince her not to go, butshe's like like, no, I'm doing
this, there's nothing for mehere.
So she goes and meets withUrsula, who is this amazing

(16:12):
octopus person.
So instead of having a fishtail, she's got like eight octopus
legs and she is voluptuous andround and she's got this deep
smokers voice.
And there is there's rumor.
I mean I don't I didn'tresearch this closely so I don't

(16:34):
know how accurate this is, butthere's at least some people who
claim that she was based on thedrag performer divine, who's
well known to balt and fans ofJohn Waters and she.
Certainly there are others whosay you know, she's based on
some sort of drag performer.
Maybe it was Divine, maybe itwas someone else that Howard

(16:55):
Ashman was familiar with in NewYork, but or maybe it was a
conglomeration of a number ofdrag queens.
Ursula kind of has drag queenenergy and she sings this song,
also iconic, poor, unfortunateSouls, where she says I'm
misunderstood, I help people andI want to talk about the way

(17:17):
that she helps people, like theexamples that she gives when we
get there, and basically shemakes these deals with people
which they can't keep up theirend, and then she collects them
I'm putting quotes around thatand they turn into these little
like polyp worms, plant things,the kind of gray, and they have

(17:39):
eyes and stuff and they clearlyfeel fear.
And she, she, makes a deal withAriel.
You give me your voice, I giveyou legs and you turn into a
human for three days.
And if you can get the Princethat you love to kiss you with
true love not just any kiss, buta kiss with true love within

(17:59):
three days, then you keep yourlegs and live happily ever after
.
If you don't, you are mine.
Meaning she goes into thisgarden of worm, pollen,
unfortunate souls right shemakes the deal.
There's this awesome dramaticscene where she sings and, uh,

(18:21):
ursula sort of extracts hervoice as like this golden light
that she then puts into a littleshell that she wears around her
neck.
Ursula wears around her neckand immediately turns her human,
so that she's like gasping forair.
So Flounder and Sebastian likerush her up to the surface.
So now she's human.
They have to get her into thecastle.

(18:42):
Somehow she gets into thecastle.
It's adorable, like she's so,like there's a wonder that she
has.
It's so cute.
She's.
The servants like clean her upand get her a dress.
And meanwhile Sebastian ends upin the kitchen where the French
chef mistakes him for one ofthe crabs that he's cooking and

(19:03):
like there's this absolutelyridiculous slapstick scene with
the song les poissons, lespoissons how I love les poissons
where sebastian nearly killsthis dude and they totally
destroy the kitchen.
Then they're having dinner andGrimsby suggests that Eric take

(19:30):
Ariel on a tour of the kingdom.
So they do that the next dayand in sort of a montage we see
him like really enjoying herchildlike wonder and like
curiosity and adventure as theygo around the kingdom.
Oh, meanwhile I forgot tomention when he first, first
meets her, he thinks maybe she'sthe girl that saved him, who
he's decided he's in love withand is going to marry.

(19:52):
But no, she can't be because shecan't talk and the voice is the
primary, uh characteristic thathe remembers about this mystery
girl.
Okay, so they're having a greattime.
And then, uh, the friendsflounder sebastian and scuttle.
They're like has he kissed heryet?
Has he kissed her yet?
No, no, no.
So now they decide they need totry and help that along.

(20:15):
So they're rowing in a boat on alittle like swampy river thing
and sebastian gets all of thesea creatures and waterfowl to
help him sing this song, to tryand like push them to kiss, kiss
the girl, which is a great song, and also, like, highly

(20:36):
problematic when I watch it now.
Yeah, they're about to kiss butthen get interrupted by flotsam
and jetsam who tip the boatover.
Ursula is watching and she'slike you know, she can't let the
deal be a deal.
So she decides she needs tointervene.
So the next morning Scuttlecomes in, ariel sleeping.

(20:56):
Scuttle comes in and says Iheard the great news the prince
is getting married.
The whole kingdom is talkingabout it.
Way to go, kid.
And so initially Ariel's like'slike, oh, this is great, this is
so exciting what's happening.
And she like runs to find outand and um, eric is sort of
she's up on like a mezzanine andshe's looking down and eric's
with this other brunette womanariel has red hair, um, who has

(21:18):
her voice, and he's very excited, he wants to get married today.
The ship leaves at sunset andshe freaks out and there's this
one moment that again just propsthe animators.
There's this she, when sherealizes what's happening, she
like turns away from the scenewith her back to this column and
she kind of flaps her hand alittle bit and it's just this,

(21:39):
like this doesn't belong in thesynopsis, but I can't help it.
There there's this tiny moment.
It's just so real, like it'sjust one of those like small
details that really makes herread as an actual, fully formed
character who's having emotions.
Anyway, she's resigned, thatlike she's lost the deal and

(22:10):
she's going to know become oneof one of ursula's um things.
And it's not even that she'sjust resigned.
She lost her love.
But scuttle is like what, stilldoesn't know what's happened.
He goes to the boat and likeflies into the, is like looking
in the window and sees thiswoman and sees ursula in the
mirror.
So Vanessa looks like young,slim, beautiful woman to us, but
in the mirror we see Ursula'sreflection.

(22:31):
So Scuttle knows.
So he goes back to the pierwhere Ariel's dejected and says
what's happening.
So Blounder is going to try andget Ariel to the boat and
Scuttle has been told to stopthe wedding and Sebastian goes
to get Triton.
So another slapstick scene wherethe creatures work to try and

(22:54):
disrupt the wedding and the, theshell holding the voice, gets
sort of pulled off of Ursula'sneck.
Vanessa slash Ursula's neck andAriel gets her voice back and,
just as like as that happens,eric's in, like, he's kind of

(23:16):
like hypnotized, and that breaksand he sees Ariel and he
remembers her and he realizesthat they're the same person and
that they're in love with oneanother.
That they're the same personand that they're in love with
one another.
And just as they embrace, like,the sun goes down and her legs
turn into a fishtail again andUrsula says it's too late, I've
won.
And he, she scoops up themermaid and and um goes down

(23:36):
into the sea.
Triton confronts her.
He tries to destroy thecontract but he can't because
it's a valid contract.
So Ursula convinces Triton totake Ariel's place.
He does, he signs the contractto take her place.
He turns into a little polyp.
Ursula takes Triton's TritonRight.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
It is or Trident.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, that's the word .
Ursula takes Triton right, itis that's for trident.
Yeah, that's the word.
Ursula takes triton's tridentand like, grows to be like
ginormous, like like I don'tknow skyscraper big, and it's
like she's wreaking havoc.
Eric manages to actually hurther with like the prow of a
giant shipwreck that he steersinto her gut and kill her and

(24:37):
the and so once she's beenkilled, all of the polyps turned
back into merpeople, includingtriton.
And then we see um, we see arielkind of watching the humans on
the shore.
She's on this like rock, justout of the water.
And we see triton watching herfrom a distance she doesn't know
he's watching and he's talkingto sebastian and they're talking

(25:02):
about how, um, she's growing up, and I don't remember the exact
words, but but you know, sortof, maybe humans aren't as bad
as we thought, and blah, blah,blah.
Triton says there's only oneproblem and Sebastian's like or
one problem left, something likethat.
And Sebastian's like what'sthat?
And Triton says just how muchI'm going to miss her.

(25:25):
And then he lays, he sort ofholds, his trident just on the
surface of the water and thisgolden light goes over to Ariel
and her tail is transformed intolegs and then she looks back at
him and smiles, and then shesort of walks off in this
shimmering white gown out of thesurf and and greets Eric.

(25:47):
That's when they kiss.
And then that like immediatelycuts same scene, but wearing
wedding clothes, and she saysthat her dad comes and greets
her and they hug and she says Ilove you, daddy.
And the merpeople are all therewaving as they sail off into

(26:07):
the sunset.
So there were little piecesthat I miss.
I'm sure, like Flotsam andJetsam bite it and, um, ursula
is really sad and calls them herpoor poopsies out and calls

(26:34):
them her poor poopsies Iconic,as I said.
Yeah, yeah, and about Ursula,we don't know specifics, but at
some point she lived in thecastle and she really resents
Triton and we don't know whathappened there.
So, oh, we also hear that weknow for sure Ariel's age is 16.
So I actually want to startwith the Hans Christian Anderson
, because I think that that'ssignificant and and and kind of

(26:57):
inform some of the problematicthings that bother me, that so
I'd like to, I'd like toactually start there.
So anderson's story of thelittle mermaid basically the
same story a mermaid who fallsin love with a human prince and
gives up her voice to the seawitch in exchange for legs and.

(27:19):
But he doesn't.
The prince does not fall inlove with her.
He falls in love with anotherhuman woman and the mermaid
sisters give her a way out.
They say if you kill him, youcan come back and live with us
and remain a mermaid, but shecan't bear to hurt him.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
I thought it was like kill him and the other woman.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
Oh, I don't know, I didn't reread it, so I just read
a synopsis, because I.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
I remember it being like what I appreciated about it
was that it did show like whatselfless love really is, like
she couldn't.
She couldn't bear to kill him,but she also couldn't bear to
hurt him by hurting his love,because she does love him.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
So instead she takes the mermaid's death.
Oh, that's.
The other piece of the deal wasthat humans have a soul which
live on after their death, butmermaids don't.
Merpeople become seafoam andthat's the only way in which
they live on.
So she chooses the mermaid'sdeath and becomes seafoam.

(28:24):
And it's sort of an open secretthat Anderson was in love with a
man named Edward Edward Colin Idon't know if the V's
pronounced or not and that this,this fairy tale, was a love
letter to Colin and theyremained friends.

(28:46):
After Colin got married to awoman, and, and, and Anderson
remained friends with him andhis wife, but so this was sort
of his love letter to him, and,and, and.
So when I think about it thatway, and this love that Ariel,
our Ariel, has, and, and, andthe ending that we get, the
Disneyfied ending that we get,anderson lived in a time where

(29:09):
he couldn't even imagine a happyending for himself.
Yeah, and so the fact that ahappy ending for this unrequited
love was given him kind ofposthumously, like that, that
feels redemptive to me for thisstory that in my sort of angsty
twenties I rejected.

(29:29):
On the other hand, the storythat we received was not a and,
like we didn't have that context, right Like I didn't have that
when I was.
How old was I in 89?

(29:49):
13.
You know, I didn't have thatsort of unrequited gay love from
whenever Anderson lived.

(30:11):
1989, who the movie I mean.
In some ways it really gave mea lot, right.
Like Ariel is curious andautonomous and like brave, she
rejects patriarchy in a lot ofways.
She rejects what's expected ofher.
She has a, she has a giftedsinger, but she's not really
interested in singing in thisstupid court production that her
dad is putting on.

(30:31):
You know, she bucks againstthis parent who, because of his
trauma, is stifling her.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
So on the one hand, it gave me all of that that and
then immediately made romanticlove and marriage the focus of
all of that.
So the reason why, when youwere asking me what I remember

(31:18):
about it and I said look at itas this young woman who escapes
an abusive parent, because it isa very common pattern,
particularly for young girls,where, if they are in an abusive
family of origin, are in anabusive family of origin a lot
of times it can seem like thefastest and easiest escape is
through a relationship, aromantic relationship,
particularly if you're anattractive young woman, and

(31:41):
that's something I think isimportant to note in this film.
Now, triton clearly loves hischildren, he loves his daughters
, he loves Ariel.
He means well, he does.
But that does not precludeabuse.

(32:01):
Agreed, agreed, yeah, and he'salso clearly traumatized, which
does not preclude abuse.
But the fact that and again,this is as the story as received
is, you know, she doesn'tactually know Eric.

(32:24):
She doesn't actually know Eric,right?
Her father has made it clearthat there is nothing for her
under the sea because all thethings that she cares about have
been destroyed and she's goingto be, like you know, forced to
be in these musical productionsshe doesn't care about and do
things that she doesn't careabout, and so Eric seems like an

(32:46):
escape.
I mean particularly the way itall goes down, like she's making
the bad decisions a 16-year-oldmakes when it seems like you
don't have other choices.
And then the fact that Tritonsays you know, there's only one
problem is how much I'm going tomiss her, much I'm going to

(33:11):
miss her and like gives her.
This also feels abusive becauseit's just like, instead of
being like okay, let's figurethis out, let's, you're 16.
I believe that you care verydeeply for this boy, but you're
16.
You've known him three days,let's slow our roll.
And instead it's like okay,you're his problem now.

(33:31):
And I know that is not whatanyone was going for with this
movie, but that is the way thatpatriarchy looks at romance.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah Well, exactly Like I feel, like I guess I'm
holding our filmmakers moreaccountable than the character
of Triton, I guess, in thismoment.
Because why did it have to beeither?
Or?
I mean, and again, patriarchy,white supremacy, both hinge on

(34:18):
an either or right.
But the from the beginning,like part of what I think're
we're meant to see as Triton'serror, is his binary that humans
are bad, period full stop, andand that's and, and we're shown

(34:39):
that that's not true, right,eric makes some selfless choices
when he is fully himself, andand so the movie shows us that,
that his binary is false.
And yet her reward, like ourreward, is another freaking
binary.

(34:59):
It's another either or.
And so I I don't disagree withany of your characterizations.
I just I want to like go alittle more meta and say like,
is this actually the character'sfault or is it the writer's?

Speaker 2 (35:16):
fault.
Yeah, yeah, well, it's also so.
Before I learned that the transcommunity sees themselves in
Ariel, I learned more aboutHoward Ashman, who died not long
after this a few years after hedied, in 91, and the movie was

(35:37):
released in 89.
Yeah, and he died of AIDS atthe age of 40.
Yeah, and he had also done someof the lyrics for Beauty and the
Beast, if I recall.
Yeah, and he was an importantpart of the lyrics for Beauty
and the Beast, if I recall.
Yeah, and he was an importantpart of the Disney Renaissance
of this time.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
I don't think we can underestimate how important he
and Alan Menken together were tothe Disney Renaissance, because
bringing it back to the reallybig musical numbers is part of
what made it feel like the olddays again.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
And so understanding, as I understood it, that Howard
Ashman and Alan Menken had agreat deal to do with how Ursula
was characterized and a lot ofthe lyrics that can be read in
multiple ways, helped me kind offorgive the film the first time

(36:32):
.
I forgave it Because it helpedme.
It contextualized it in thesame way that, like so when I
first read the Hans ChristianAndersen fairy tale in probably
like 1990.
So like it was after the filmcame out, but I was still a kid
and that contextualized thingsfor me like, oh, disney gave it

(36:54):
a happy ending and made it sothat the other woman was evil
and not just, you know, ablameless person who the prince
truly loved, which, okay, that'san interesting
contextualization and theselflessness of Ariel.
And then there was also, Idon't know if you recall,
because she was so selfless,instead of becoming seafoam she

(37:16):
actually gets a soul.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
Yeah, she becomes seafoam, but she also has a soul
.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, and so the Christianity of that kind of
contextualized things for me andyou know it was from there then
, learning about Howard Ashmanand his like really tragic,
early death and what hisexperiences being gay in the

(37:45):
middle of the 20th century putinto this film.
You know, I find if you look atthings through a queer lens it
can really contextualize the artthat comes out.
You know, both from HansChristian Andersen originally to
what Howard Ashman was able todo with this work, and part of

(38:10):
what goes on is because it hadto be done underground.
We're receiving it in thisheteronormative, patriarchal,
binary thinking type of worldwhich we had no way of
questioning as a 10-year-old anda 13-year-old when we saw it
the first time.
Right, Right.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
So when I think about what makes me uncomfortable
about this movie, I'm what Iwant to ask myself is whether or
not I am chafing at the genre,like like when, when I gave uh,
roger ebert a hard time for likebeing annoyed that the two

(38:54):
protagonists got together in aromance.
Like, am I being roger ebert inthis moment by being annoyed
that at the fairy tale that endswith a wedding?
And I think the answer is maybe, or the answer is at least a
little bit.
Yeah, I'm at least a little bitlike chafing at the actual

(39:14):
genre and I feel like there arepotentially are ways that we
could be true to the genrewithout the actual wedding bells
, like the pairing.
I don't think that I could betrue to the genre without the
actual wedding bells, like thepairing I I don't think that I
could avoid the pairing.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Well, um, unless it was hans christian anderson look
at princess bride.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
That is true to fairy tales yeah, and they and, and
there's a, there's a pairing,but there's no wedding.
There's no wedding, right,right, um.
So so I think, I think it'slike it's a yes, and in this one
, um, in terms of, like, whatI'm I'm chafing at, and and and

(39:56):
even when I think about thecontext of the gay men involved
in its creation, the trans folkswho have taken this on and like
, think of themselves asmermaids, which I think is
actually really pretty cool.
That's lovely.
Yeah that you know cause?
Cause Ariel is fascinated withhumans long before she ever sees
Eric, and I think that's reallyimportant and also like it's

(40:21):
disappointing to me because sheis fascinated with humans before
, long before she sees Eric.
She is fascinated with humansbefore long before she sees eric
, that eric becomes the solefocus of her new life.
Even for my trans siblings, whosee themselves in in ariel,
like I'm a little disappointedfor them on their behalf, yeah,
yeah, that's what I mean ontheir behalf that that that

(40:43):
Ariel does isn't given more uhpurpose, more meaning, more to
do, or the the opportunity shehas actually transitioned yeah,
or the opportunity to just feelat home in herself yeah, without
it having to do with someoneelse right, like I want Ariel to

(41:04):
just like be like yeah, I gotlegs.
Like this is who I am not, sothat I can be a wife, yeah, and.
I want that for my transsiblings as well.
So I think that's there's someof the tension that I'm feeling,
even within the sort of queerlens, right.

(41:25):
So even for um anderson, really, like I mean, this was a love
letter to a specific man withwith whom he was in love, um,
and, and so it makes sense thatthat, that the romance, and,
like I wish for hans christiananderson that he has a soul, you

(41:51):
know, and um, I don't know so,and and not without having know
that he has a soul, withouthaving to sacrifice himself,
without having to fall on thesword of unrequited love, but
that's, I don't know that.
That's neither here nor there.
I'm getting a little fanciful,so let me bring it back down.

(42:16):
I want to talk about consent inthis film, because the kiss, the
girl scene, like I read onecommentator who really defended
it hard and was like, well, shegives consent through Sebastian,
like by proxy, to which I sayno, honey, she didn't have her
voice, but that didn't mean shecouldn't communicate, because
she communicated with him inother ways.

(42:37):
Uh, and the lyrics to the songsay you don't know if she wants
it too, but there's one way toask her and that's to kiss her.
Oh my God, no, like he askedher questions and she responded
non-verbally, like that's athing.
So so that really bothers me.

(42:59):
Uh, in rewatch, as as much as Ilove the song, as much as I
love the visuals, you know withlike the like I don't know if
it's a willow tree or what, butlike the curtain partying and
the flamingos and the you knowthe like frogs, like I love it,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
And also oh ouch.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
So I'm going to bring up something that seems
unrelated, but no, you, that'sso out of character for you.
Yes, yes, I, I, I really like tomeander, but so I'm thinking of
, if you recall, the articleabout Aziz Ansari in I think it
was like January of 2018, it wasjust just after like the bulk

(43:44):
of the Me Too movement where ayoung woman, who we only know as
Grace, talked about a date thatshe went on with Ansari, where
he consistently pushed herboundaries and then would back
off a bit, and then pushed himagain and then would back off a
bit, and this was polarizingthis article.

(44:07):
There were a lot of women over acertain age who were just like
that's just a bad date, or youhave words, say no or slap him,
and younger women were morelikely to be like no, it's not
okay what he did and it, um, youknow, it doesn't have to be, it
doesn't have to use force orcoercion to be non-consensual.

(44:33):
And one of the things that Iremember from that moment was a,
an article where someone wassaying like why is it that?
We understand we know that menunderstand nonverbal no's and
non-direct no's in every othersituation, but in the bedroom.

(44:54):
So like if you say, hey, I'mgoing to order a pizza, do you
want some pizza, and the personresponds I don't think I'm
hungry.
You know that that means no.
Whereas if you say like hey,how about we take this in the
bedroom?
Like I don't know if I want todo that right now.
Oh, come on, honey, I bringthis up because this is all part

(45:20):
and parcel of the same thingthe lyrics.
You don't know if she wants ittoo, and there's only one way to
find out, and it's that's tokiss her.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Well, there's there's one, it's not the only way.
Oh okay, there's one way, butthe lyric is there's one way.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yeah, so Aziz Ansari is about our age, maybe a little
younger, so I don't know.
So he was a kid watching thistoo, right, and so this is what
he learned too, which is thatyou press until she says no.
And in terms of that situation,I look at him differently,

(45:57):
mostly because he wore a Time'sUp pin and very much made his
reputation on being an ally.
Very much made his reputationon being an ally.
So it has changed how I look athim Now.
I don't think that he needs tobe canceled or anything like
that, but I'm less likely to beinterested in his comedy.

(46:18):
But I also recognize that thisis how he was raised to believe
sexual politics works, in partbecause of the Disney movie and
everything else.
That's part of rape culture,and so, you know, it may seem
like this is like a stretch tobe like, you know it's a G rated
kids movie, but it's all partof this, these messages that we

(46:43):
get in this culture, that it ison her to make a scene that she
doesn't want something ratherthan it being on him to get

(47:20):
consent from.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Ariel is when her dad gives her legs Right, Like he
just does it, like it surprisesher and and this is part of what
you're pointing to as rapeculture she likes it and so it's
like okay that he did itwithout her consent because she
likes it, you know.

(47:42):
And one could argue like thisis what she's been dreaming of
and he gave her her dreams andalso he made a huge change to
her body without talking to herabout it first.
So I think that, like theunderlying messages, regardless,
like surface level, Like maybethere are analogies that would

(48:05):
change the context or change myperspective on in that
particular interpretation, butsurface level, what the 10 and
13-year-old got, this lack ofconsent, was like not just okay
but celebrated, yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
And the way that we look at especially women in
terms of romance is that menknow what women want and they
give it to them withoutdiscussing it with them.
So the entire idea that aproposal should be a surprise
and this big romantic thing,instead of it being a
conversation between equalsabout the importance of their
lives.
Yeah, of their future, yeah andso.
So you see that all the time.
Like there's a movie I rememberseeing long time ago where the

(48:57):
husband like bought a house forthe wife, oh, and I remember
just like absolutely not, no,yeah, yeah and so and that's.
That's a similar sort of thing,like well, daddy knows best
what's for her, so like she hadto convince him, but now that

(49:18):
he's convinced he's going togive her what she wants On his
timing.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Yeah, yeah.
So okay, I need to talk aboutUrsulaula and the poor,
unfortunate souls song, and Ineed to talk about fat phobia in
this movie.
So the the contrast betweenariel and ursula is like really

(49:44):
significant right.
So we've got this young, thin,pretty protagonist who's
childlike, innocent, virginal,and then this round voluptuous,
older, sexual villain who'sheavily made up, who might be a

(50:08):
drag queen mm-hmm and like the,the sort of and she's again.
Isn't she like, yeah, yeah,she's got.
Yes, she is voluptuous, yes,and.
And so the contrast in thismovie that that is is too much,
with either ors of young andgood and pretty and older and

(50:29):
fat and evil.
I have a problem with, and thatis further underlined by the
one example of how she helpsunfortunate souls in her song,
this one longing to be pretty,that one wants to get the girl,
and do I help them?
Yes, indeed.
And we see the fat mermaid whowants to get the girl, and do I
help them?
Yes, indeed.
And we see the fat mermaid whowants to be pretty is made thin

(50:52):
and the scrawny mer man whowants to get the girl is made,
you know, like a gym bro in inher little magical, like visual
and so visual and so like thisvoluptuous, highly made up,
sexualized older woman, totallybuying in to the fat phobia that

(51:18):
the movie is having us view herwith, and like.
I didn't see that at all, at allat all, not when I was 13, not
when I was 23.
I'm not even sure I would haveseen it when I was 40, but
watching it now I'm like holycow, that is not okay.

(51:39):
Like, so not okay.
And I don't know that I havelike any more to say about it
except for like, wow, y'all,there's some serious fat phobia
in there, and ageism and and,and, and what's the word?
Like, like a demonizing ofsexuality.
That's why having her as a dragqueen is a problem.

(52:02):
It's a demonizing of thesexuality.
I needed to articulate it inthat way it's a demonizing of
the sexuality.
I I needed to articulate it inthat way that, like it bothers
me now that I'm watching it andit bothers me that it didn't
bother me or in earlier viewings.
Like that just reminds me, likehow internalized all of those

(52:25):
things are in our cultures andin myself.
So, and while we're talkingabout that scene, with the poor,
unfortunate souls through thatscene and others, sort of um, it
passed.
This movie does pass back toElle.
There there are.
So there are at least two womenor female characters with names
who talk to one another.
Ursula and Ariel talk aboutEric, but they talk about other

(52:48):
things as well.
So just as an aside, because wealways talk about Bechdel, so
there's my Bechdel moment.
So the fat phobia that isinherent in this villain, this
fat villain like the fact thatwhen she gets the power that

(53:12):
she's looking for, she growsenormous.
It feels like another sort ofsymbolized fat phobia, like
another way in which wecommunicate, we telegraph.
Evil is in exaggerating the fatbodiedness of the fat villain

(53:41):
something that just occurred tome.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
So we prize thinness, we prize virginity, and we
vilify sexual experience andfatness, which is another way of
vilifying mothers.
Yeah, and pregnancy, pregnancy,yeah, and it got me thinking
about the fact that, like, so Idon't know if Alan Menken is gay

(54:04):
.
Um, I know Howard Ashman was.
Um, I don't know either, but um, it got me thinking, like, were
there any queer women involvedin the making of this?

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yeah, I I don't know.
I do think that the the primaryanimator on Ariel herself was a
woman, I think, but mostly itwas men making this movie.
Mostly it was men making thismovie.
There is another fat bodiedwoman in this film and that is

(54:46):
the woman who takes care ofAriel when she first comes into
the palace.
She's like a servant of somekind who is like we'll just get
this washed, Like the sailcloththat she has wrapped herself in.
She's not vilified at all.
She's also not at all sexual,Like she's just kind of matronly
.
So in the feminine archetypeshe is the mother, but I think
that that's.
I just wanted to name that.

(55:07):
Like there is another fat body.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Well, and then that's interesting because, like, if
you are motherly and fat bodied,then that's okay, but if you
dare to be sexual and fat bodied, that's evil, because you're
not being a mother yeah, yeah, Ithink that's right.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Um, it's also notable that ariel has no mother.
Like we don't know, we, wedon't know, we're not told.
Like you know did, did shespring fully formed from
triton's head, or like, wasthere a mother who's now absent?
Like we don't know.
So that's another piece.
I think of this when thinkingabout gender that's missing like

(55:46):
what's the word I'm looking for?
like we one can feel the absenceof a mother in this.
I think if there had been amother in this whole thing, like
the whole thing would have gonedown a lot different.
Like oh, gosh, I'm sorry honey,you're 16, why don't you date
him for a while anyway?
Um, so, so I I think those werethe the big things that I

(56:08):
wanted to make sure that I spokeabout.
I think that we can, and maybewe'll, do another episode to
talk about the live action onewhere ariel is played by a black
actress and, like some of thefolks uh, white folks who lost
their minds when she was castbecause it wasn't realistic,
because, of course, mermaids allhave white skin, so, like,

(56:34):
maybe we will do an episodeabout the live action.
I haven't seen it so I can'tspeak aside from, like what I
saw on, you know, social media,where people were like losing
their minds.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Like this is so unrealistic and she has red hair
.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
And it's like right, right, right, Anyway, um you
want to talk realistic.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
Does Ariel have any idea what the wedding night is
going to be?

Speaker 1 (57:03):
does Ariel have any idea what the wedding night is
going to be.
Well, and like when she hadlike.
If she gets pregnant, will shehave a?

Speaker 2 (57:14):
human kid or a merfish?
Well, does she lay eggs, likewhat?
Also, can merpeople have sex?
What is she going to eat forthe rest of her life?
Cause those are her friends.
Those are her friends.
And is she going to be likewatching her husband eat her
friends?
Those are her friends.
And is she gonna be likewatching her husband eat her
friends for the rest of her life?

Speaker 1 (57:28):
yeah, yeah, all right , well, any, um, final points,
uh, deep thoughts that you wantto make.
Before I try and summarize someof the things that we just
talked about.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Um, one thing I I'm just about hans christen and I.
I really wish I could rememberwhich author it was, but he was
an admirer of an author and likeset up a correspondence with
him.
And I think Hans ChristianAndersen was neuro spicy like
they didn't have any way ofdetecting that at the time but

(57:59):
he was a parent like he.
He invited himself to thisother author's house and like
just stayed there and was likethe world's worst house guest,
oh my gosh.
And this poor other author waslike how do I get rid of him?
That's so funny.
That was in some ways endearing,um, and also kind of helped me

(58:23):
better understand, like how hechanneled like his own anguish
into this story and other thingsthat he'd written.
Um, oh, and the one other thing.
So the same book where I readthe the um little mermaid, there
was a little bit ofbiographical stuff about
Anderson, one of the thingssaying he had this really

(58:46):
beautiful voice as a little boy,but then his voice changed and
he couldn't sing anymore and Iwas 10 or 11 and did not have
any idea what the hell he wastalking about.
I was like oh my god, did theygo to a doctor?
Oh, just had no idea talkingabout.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
I was like oh my God, did they go to a doctor.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
I had no idea, poor poopsie.
So so yeah, so I have, I have,I have some fondness for for for
Mr Hounds.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Okay, let me see if I can summarize, uh, some of the
things that we talked about, soI think I'll I took I take issue
with some of the things thatshow up in this film and
ultimately what I'm taking issuewith is patriarchy, like I
think I need to just name thatbecause I don't believe that the
movie makers were, you know, onthe cutting edge or

(59:50):
ideologically like out there,right, like they gave us, they
were giving us media that, like,made our stepdad cry right, he
ain't a crier, just for therecord, y'all, he's not a crier,
um.
So like they were tapping intosomething that was in the
culture.
They weren't, um, they weren'tgiving me something that wasn't

(01:00:10):
already there, they justpackaged it in a new way.
So what I'm ultimately takingissue with is patriarchy, and
and and the pieces specificallythat show up in this film that
bother me are um, the sexualpolitics around consent they're
the primary focus on romanticpairing as some sort of like

(01:00:34):
proof of worthiness for women inparticular and and the and the
ways that in this film thatmanifests as a redirection of a
really curious and alive andinteresting and driven girl into

(01:00:55):
a wife, and I want more forthat part of your world kid
who's like wants to, you know,who thinks about the girls on
land, sickest women ready tostand.
I want more for her than tojust stand at the altar, like

(01:01:15):
when she was ready to stand itwasn't at the altar.
So those are some of the thingsthat I take issue with.
So, so, those are some of thethings that I take that I take

(01:01:37):
issue with.
When I zoom out and look atthis story from its origins of
Hans Christian Andersen, inlesslove that he sacrificed himself
for and thereby sort of wrotehimself a soul, which just
breaks my heart that he thoughtmaybe he didn't have one.
Yeah, it sort of opens upchannels of fondness that had

(01:02:01):
closed for me.
So I think that's important.
Also, recognizing that my transsiblings see themselves in
Ariel as this person who's justnot at home in her own body and
longs for a different kind ofexistence and is able to find it
also opens up channels offondness for me.
So those are things I things Iwant to name in terms of our

(01:02:22):
analysis.
Some of the things that we, um,that we talked about are, uh,
especially around sexuality andbeing desirable and not being
fat, because those two things gotogether and the ways in which

(01:02:44):
sort of fatness is vilified,especially if it is sexualized,
and the only way that it's okayfor a woman to be fat is if she
is also nurturing.
That we see in this moviethrough the persons, through the
characters of Ursula, thesexual fat evil, uh, woman, and

(01:03:05):
I don't remember her name, ifshe has one, but the fat servant
who helps take care of Arielwhen she first comes into the um
, into into the castle, who alsointeracts with the French chef,
who is um, you know, she'sgreat, she's benevolent.
We're meant to like her.

(01:03:25):
We talked, I mean, I also justnamed.
Like this movie was part of theDisney Renaissance.
The music is amazing.
Oh God, yeah, we lost a hugetalent when we lost Howard
Ashman to AIDS in 1991.
He was the Lin-Manuel Mirandaof his day, right, like he was

(01:03:49):
revolutionizing, like taking theold tropes and like making them
new for a new generation.
To sort of fall in love withthe heroine, to like tap our
feet at the showstopper, to likefeel the huge emotions at the
denouement, like he gave us thatand and it.
The music, the actual music,and the visuals still entertain

(01:04:16):
like crazy.
And the animators.
Like the animation, theyweren't cutting corners, so they
took it back to sort of thehigh art that it had been when
Walt Disney was alive with thisfilm, in these characters,

(01:04:45):
through the work of theanimators, not the voice talent,
whether it's Triton's remorsethat we see on his face after he
has done this abusive act ofdestroying her stuff, or in
Ariel, like her face and likeher body language when she
realizes that Eric is going tomarry Vanessa, those are two
specific moments that I calledout.
There are many others.
That Eric is going to marryVanessa, those are two specific
moments that I called out.
There are many others.

(01:05:06):
I think you brought it withAziz Ansari.
You brought in somecontemporary examples of like,
if we iterate the sexualpolitics around consent out to
their logical conclusions, youbrought in contemporary examples
and what else?
What am I forgetting?

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
showing the pattern of a young abused child looking
for romance as a way out of anabusive family situation.
And that's like it's.
It's so common that I like I'mnot sure how like how the
filmmakers were thinking aboutit, if they were at all yeah,
maybe not at all because it isso common, yeah, cool.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
well, this is one that, like it didn't surprise me
because I already was like Isaid I wouldn't let my daughter
watch this film, so I alreadyhad sort of a sense that, like
there was a lot problematic init.
So it didn't surprise me, butit still hurts.
I loved this movie so, sodeeply.

(01:06:33):
I still love the music.
So this is one of those that,like is part of the reason that
we're doing this project right,like I I finding ways to be
aware of what is problematic inwhat we love, so that we can
pick what we allow in asfurniture and what we sort of

(01:06:55):
hold.
I don't think it means that wehave to cancel it entirely, but
we're able then to actually likebe more discriminating about
what we let in as furniture ofour minds.
Which is why I didn't let mykid watch it, because she can't
do that kind of discernment yetshe's not old enough.
I invited her to watch itactually with this rewatch, and

(01:07:15):
she was like, man, I don't wantto.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
I am thinking also, just so, when you realize like
she gives up her voice so thatshe can be with a man, and I
thinking again about it in termsof like the pattern of like
escaping abuse.
It's like giving up your voicein order to get out of a
situation that is untenable.
I don't know just so many ofthe of the movies and other art

(01:07:43):
that we talk about ends up beinglike a very interesting and
important metaphor for abuse andmental health, and so there's,
there's a way of looking at itthere as well.
But Ariel's story can't end, ifthat's the case, it can't end
with the wedding because, likein another five years she's
going to be like this isuntenable and like, move on

(01:08:04):
again.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
Yeah, yeah, and I guess what I want to name too.
Like this one commentator I'lllink to her article who was
really trying to defend thething, was sort of saying, like
she was saying that this writerwas saying it's unfair of
feminists to blame Ariel forthat.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Oh gosh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
Yeah, and.
I completely agree with her onthat.
This is like what the choicesAriel makes are completely
comprehensible.
And if her father had?

(01:08:42):
And for the giving up the voicefor the man, mm, hmm, that
doesn't make me okay with thefact that it happens.
You know, like on surface level, that I would want my kid to
watch it.
Well, it happens.
My young daughter.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
It happens in a way, without it ever being remarked
upon, that like and ultimatelyshe's rewarded for it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Yeah, yeah, remarked upon that like, and ultimately
she's rewarded for it.
Yeah, yeah, and so that's thelike.
It's a gamble that the moviesays pays off, and that's the
piece that I don't want my 12year old to be imbibing without
some critical thinking around it.
Yeah, okay, so next week, Iunderstand, we're going to stay
under the sea.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Yes, Next week I'm bringing my deep thoughts about
Jaws.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
I'm really excited about this.
I have never seen it.
I've seen pieces, but I'venever seen the movie all the way
through.
It's fantastic.
My daughter and my spousewatched it this past summer
together and my kid was likeit's not that scary, she's.
She's much tougher than I am.
So I might watch it before, butjust not.

(01:09:48):
Not to like bring deep thoughts, but just to like, just to have
it, just have it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
It's really really fantastic.
It's.
It's a very, very well done,like there's a reason why it's
as iconic as it is.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
Yeah, it's a classic.
Yeah, all right.
Well, I'm looking forward tothat until then.
Till then, do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
quantity.
Thanks for listening.

(01:10:22):
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