January 8, 2025 • 61 mins
Uncover how desire can become a transformative spiritual practice as we welcome our guest, Sarah Trudeau, a devoted mother, accomplished writer, and seasoned teacher with a rich background in Buddhist meditation and yoga. Listen as Sarah shares her insights on the "wave of desire" and how Elizabeth Gilbert's concept of the muse has informed her understanding of desire as a powerful life force.
Desire holds the key to our spiritual growth and personal transformation, guiding us toward authentic expression and co-creation with the universe. In this episode, we continue our exploration of desire, discerning between ego-driven and soul desires, and unveil practical practices that foster alignment within ourselves.
Highlights of this Episode:
• Understanding desire as life force energy
• Distinguishing between ego desires and authentic desires
• The role of personal practices in cultivating alignment
• Sarah's journey through postpartum and the lessons learned
• The importance of co-creation with intention
• Embracing the messiness and exploration of desires
• Building trust and clarity in following our inner voice
• Inspiration from nature and movement as catalysts for alignment
• A celebration of the journey rather than a destination
To learn more about Sarah, you can follow her on: Substack, Facebook and Instagram
...
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Inviting you into our world.
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life,motherhood relationships and my
business Desire has taken me onquite a ride and every day I
practice listening to andfollowing the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
(00:35):
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desire as Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Welcome listeners and friends to the Desire as
Medicine podcast.
I am joined today by my lovelyco-host, catherine Navarro, and
we have a very special guesttoday.
Her name is Sarah Trudeau and Iam so excited that she's here.
I'm going to read her bio,because it's really beautiful.
(01:46):
Sarah Trudeau is a mother,writer and teacher.
Her spiritual journey began inchildhood and eventually led her
to the East, where she spentyears studying and practicing
Buddhist meditation and yoga.
In 2009, sarah began teachingyoga in studios, schools and
prisons.
(02:06):
Her students represent acolorful tapestry of humanity
Children, the elderly,parkinson's patients, inmates
and practitioners of every majorreligion.
Sarah majored in creativewriting at the University of
Washington and has pursued herjoy of writing for nearly 20
(02:29):
years.
You can find a diversecollection of her work on her
Substack publication, which Ihighly recommend, including her
essays, poetries and erotica.
Sarah currently teaches onlineand all of her courses are in
service to our collectivespiritual awakening.
She weaves together breathwork,movement and writing to bring
(02:59):
her students into a space ofgreater alignment.
I have taken Sarah's writingclass recently, which is what
inspired me to have Sarah on asa guest.
She has a beautiful gift.
Not only is she an amazingstoryteller, as you will hear
today, I'm sure, but she hasthis incredible gift of bringing
(03:19):
people deeply into themselves,creating conditions for deep
alignment with yourself, toco-create with the universe,
which immediately had me feel somuch more connected to my
desires when I was in her field.
So welcome, sarah.
We're so happy that you're here.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Thank you.
I'm so honored that you invitedme.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I'm so glad that you're here.
Your class just I feel like itchanged so many things for me
your writing class.
I am a writer and I was kind offeeling stuck in my own writing
and I saw your posts on socialmedia about writing and I was
just called to it.
I said I need to do this, Ineed to be in this woman's field
(04:07):
and not only reconnect with mywriting and my love of writing.
I had no idea, actually, thatit would reconnect me to my
desire.
Oh, it was beautiful.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Thank you, I think it was too.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
It was gorgeous, you.
You talk about desire in somany beautiful ways and
co-creating, and we're going toget into all the juicy bits
today.
Okay, you said something beforewe started recording that
really inspired me and I wouldlove if you would elaborate on
that.
You were talking about the waveof desire and how you feel it
(04:47):
in your body.
Can you talk about that alittle bit to just let's just
dive right in?
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
The wave of desire.
Okay, so I'm gonna take a deepbreath.
The wave of desire, it has avery distinct feeling to me.
It feels like well, it hasdifferent flavors, but often it
feels like this rush ofinspiration or clarity, or, yes,
(05:20):
Like my body comes alive, it'slike I up-level as this wave of
inspiration or desire movesthrough me, it's like it
electrifies me and it'ssomething greater than me, or
it's something different than me.
It's something that wants tomove through me.
And actually, Brenda, we talkedabout Elizabeth Gilbert's work
(05:43):
in the Golden Pen, the writingcourse that you took.
Elizabeth Gilbert wrote a bookcalled Big Magic that I think
she describes it so well, andcertainly her way of working
with the muse has clarified howI understand desire, because I
think they're very closelyrelated.
(06:07):
Desire, because I think they'revery closely related and that
it's a force that is differentfrom me, separate from me, with
a consciousness of its own thathas chosen me as its vehicle for
expression in the physicalworld, and that might be a piece
of writing that wants to comethrough, or that might be a
conversation that wants to behad between me and a lover or a
(06:30):
loved one, or that might be likea special lunch that I want to
make for my kids.
It's unlimited in how itexpresses, but it's that feel.
It's like that rush or thatfeeling of like I'm going to do
that.
That needs to happen.
That thing wants to comethrough me, the vehicle of me,
to be expressed in the world.
(06:50):
And I often do feel that it'slike a wave, because I feel like
, or I do, I feel like it's, Ifeel and this is where you start
to get into, you start to sortof like break down what desire
is and the different strainswithin it.
But I feel like life forceitself that exists regardless of
(07:13):
whether I'm here or not.
And I really do think of lifeforce as just waves and waves
and waves rolling through theuniverse and we can sort of
catch them and feel them in ourbody.
We can harmonize with thesedifferent strains of life force,
these different frequencies,right, and then we can sort of
ride those and experience whatthey have to offer and bring
(07:35):
through their particular flavor.
But all of that to me I meansort of the bigger picture would
be that's life force, energythat wants to move through me In
its more personal flavors.
I could call it desire.
That's desire that wants tomove through me In its very
specific flavors.
(07:56):
I think of that often as themuse.
The muse has showed up andshe's knocking on my door and
she wants me to write this pieceof writing door and she wants
me to write this piece ofwriting.
So it's all these differentlike flavors or strains or
currents of the same thing whichis essentially life force,
energy, God, whatever you wantto call it, and I do.
I often experience that aswaves through me.
(08:16):
It lights me up, it's sort ofit's like electrifies my body
and I recognize it now and I acton it to the best of my ability
.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You make it sound so good.
I love the metaphor of the waveand how you write it.
That just sounds.
You make it sound like so muchfun.
I personally think that desireis so much fun like that when
you learn to play with it andwriting it.
And I love what you said, thatit is greater than me, it moves
(08:48):
through me and it chose me.
It chose me, yeah, and I likehow you said you can recognize
it now, and I think that takes along time to.
You don't always recognize itat first or you think, oh, this
desire, oh, that's not for me,I'm not going to do that.
But no, if you feel that desirein your body, oh, it's for you,
(09:12):
yeah, and that could beconfronting at times.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Absolutely, absolutely, because it's not
always as we would say in ourcommunity, it's not always in
your preferences always, as wewould say, in our community.
it's not always in yourpreferences, you know.
It's not always in yourpreferences to bring a
particular work through or aparticular flavor of expression
through.
It can be quite confronting, itcan also be quite inconvenient.
It can shift the course of yourlife.
(09:37):
And so I think also, you know,I was thinking about desire in
the week leading up to this andI was thinking about how it's a
force that I have built trustwith over the years.
The more I have practiced justin, like small doses and then
(09:57):
bigger and bigger doses, feelingit, responding to it, trusting
it enough to like, like, joinhands with it and and move into
creation with it, the more ithas shown me that it's a
benevolent force that I cantrust.
Desire has never led me astray.
(10:19):
Desire has never it's led meinto conflict at times and it's
led me, it's taken me to myedges, like right right to my
edges and a little bit beyond,but but that's not a bad thing.
That grows you, that stretchesyou, um, and that refines you,
you know, um.
(10:39):
So when, when I feel that thatsurge of desire, now, even if my
mind equates the desire withbeing inconvenient or scary, I
have a lot more trust in it nowthan I ever have in my life,
because even when I have saidyes to delivering or co-creating
(11:00):
, desire, desire, desires,desire to move through me into
the world, it's only everultimately been for my, my
growth, my fuller, truerexpression, the emergence of me,
the emergence of my authenticself.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
You just literally nailed what this podcast is
about.
We really this is what we'retalking about here, and we're
massaging this whole idea in allthese episodes for going on two
years of desire and how itchooses you and how it grows you
, and you said it's not alwayscomfortable.
I think that's why often wewant to turn our back on it, but
(11:43):
if you're brave enough to opento the desire that chooses you
and co-create with it, it doestake you to your edges and
beyond.
It's uncomfortable and I thinkthat it's supposed of like
working out at the gym, I feellike you can equate spiritual
(12:07):
growth and spiritual practicealmost directly with, like,
physical training.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
It's not particularly enjoyable, like showing up at
the gym and lifting weights anddoing crunches, and if you're
doing it, if you're doing itright quote, unquote you will,
you'll meet your edge, you'llmove right up to your edge
consistently.
But that's how you build muscle, that's how you build strength,
that's how you create moreopenness in your body.
We're built for it, like we'rebuilt to expand and um, and it's
(12:34):
no different to me not reallythat different going to the
physical gym and lifting weights, as it is a spiritual practice
that takes you to your edges ofexpression or whatever.
It's not particularlycomfortable, but it's the
direction we're meant to bemoving.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
We're meant to be moving in the direction of
expansion always.
I totally agree.
Thank you for that.
I have a question for you howdo you discern between when a
desire is that force movingthrough you versus an ego driven
desire?
Yeah, how do you discernbetween that?
I?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
feel like I am constantly working with that,
like figuring out what is what,and I was thinking this morning
on, I was actually thinking ofthis this morning.
Um, I think ego is part ofspirit.
Like I don't put ego like inthe corner, like a bad girl or
boy, or like make it sit outsidein the cold, like ego.
We came into these bodies withan ego because it's meant to be
(13:32):
there.
It's like every other part ofus that that we came in with ego
as part of it.
And so I feel like the name ofthe game is integration.
It's like harmonizing thedesire or the will or the habits
of your ego with, like thatgreater flow or that greater
wave of desire, and bringingthem together so that the ego or
(13:55):
the mind because the ego tendsto live in the mind, the mind,
the ego is in service to thegreater flow of energy.
So when my ego has a desirelike, oh, my ego wants like a
dirty chai, like yesterday, oh,my god, my taste buds want a
dirty chai.
That sounds so fucking good,but I know that it's.
(14:17):
It destroys my stomach and it'sprobably going to ruin my
appetite.
It's not the best.
It's not the best thing to putin my body right now.
It's not source.
Source is not guiding me to thedirty chai.
My taste buds or my preferencesare, and so I just get to make
a choice in that moment, like,okay, I understand the
consequences of both choosing todrink the dirty chai or not and
(14:39):
then you know, I make a choiceand I chose to drink the dirty
chai yesterday.
So then I just continuestreaming source through my body
and I enjoy the dirty chai asfully as I can as I'm drinking
it.
So I don't neglect the desiresof my ego.
I don't always act on themeither, and I think that it's
(15:02):
important to recognize thatevery choice we make,
particularly when we make themrepeatedly, they start to create
grooves, like neural grooves inthe mind, habitual energetic
grooves in the body.
And so we do need to beconscious of what we're giving
into, like what egoic desires wetend to give into, what egoic
(15:23):
ruts we tend to fall into,because they're just going to
get deeper and deeper.
So, like anything in life, Ithink it's a balance where it's
like let yourself have yourhumanity, let your ego have what
it wants, sometimes just like,merge them, but also be
conscious of the habits you'recreating and the grooves that
(15:44):
you're creating, but also beconscious of the habits you're
creating and the grooves thatyou're creating.
And and so I think then, to getback to your original question,
how do you discern between the,the desires of the ego, and the
desires of, of desire of sourceor God?
I think sometimes it just takestime to be able to recognize
(16:05):
which which it is.
I'll give you an example.
Um, when I first had mydaughter Karuna, eight and a
half years ago, I I went intopostpartum depression quickly.
It was like a really slipperyslope for me.
It was, you know, sleepdeprivation and bleeding nipples
and, uh, being in a postpartumbody, it's exhaustion.
(16:29):
It was so many factors comingat me all at once that I went
into postpartum depressionquickly and I stayed there for a
couple of months.
And, um, at the peak of that,or maybe the low of that, I had
this flash, this flash where Ithis desire, I felt this desire
(16:54):
for and what I've realized nowit's just kind of like,
clarified to the point where Ican speak to it today with this
level of clarity.
At the time, eight years ago, atthe depths of postpartum
depression, my mind identifiedthe desire as I want my parents
to move in right down the road,or I want to move in like I want
(17:18):
our families to merge me, myhusband and our new baby with my
family of origin.
I want to move in with them sothey can support me, because
they were really good supporters, but they were across town and
it wasn't that convenient.
And so I had this flash, likethis full body desire to move in
with my parents.
(17:39):
It was a full body thing, fullbody, and it was interesting
because most of me got on boardwith that idea and was like,
yeah, yeah, yeah, I want to movein with my family, but later,
not very much later and then, asthe years continued to go on, I
(17:59):
would think back on that momentand I'd be like that's not
really what I wanted.
I do not want to live with myparents God bless them.
I do not want to merge homeswith my family.
What was I thinking?
So what was that?
There was this whoosh of energythat was like a full body, yes.
(18:22):
And my mind translated itinstantly as move in with my
family, because that feels likewhat I need.
And then it literally took meyears, until very recently, just
with this question mark in mymind all the time like, why?
Why did I feel that way?
Because that's not actuallywhat I wanted.
It just became clear to merecently.
(18:42):
I was like, oh, I just wantedsupport, I wanted support, oh, I
just wanted support, I wantedsupport.
And my mind translated that asthe closest translation my mind
could find was move in with myparents.
It was the closest, it was likethe closest neighborhood we
could get in.
You know what I mean.
Really, I didn't want to movein with my parents, I just
(19:05):
wanted to sleep through thenight and I wanted someone there
to hold the baby when I took ashower and I wanted to feel
supported and I didn't feelsupported.
And so what I just unwoundrecently was like, oh, that
desire I think that desire thatI felt in my body was from
source.
It was a clean, pure, powerfuldesire to feel supported.
(19:30):
But my mind grabbed it and waslike, oh, it means this, and
maybe that was the egoic desire.
That was the mental translation.
It was the closest my mindcould get, and it took me years
to tease those apart andrecognize that, even though it
felt like a full body yes, itwas a full body, yes, it was
powerful that wasn't preciselywhat I wanted.
(19:56):
What I wanted was was to livewith my husband and our
beautiful house on the beachwith our new baby and just have
the support I needed.
So, um, I think it can be hardto tease them apart, like what
is the ego and what is thespirit?
Like who's pulling for whathere?
Uh, sometimes it can be hard totease them apart, like what is
the ego and what is the spirit?
Like who's pulling for whathere?
Sometimes it can take years tofigure out which is which, like
it has for me in that situation.
But I think we just do our bestand we get as close as we can,
(20:20):
we translate as accurately aspossible and then we continue
learning what is what?
Thank you for that beautifulstory.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
What an incredible moment that this desire came in
for you that you want to livewith your parents.
It was almost like it came inas so big and so clear because
you needed so much help.
Yes, yeah.
And what did you end up doing?
By the way, Did they move inwith you?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
end up doing, by the way, did they move in with you?
No, they didn't, thank goodness.
Not because I don't love them.
I love them dearly, but I justthat wouldn't have been the
right thing.
That was like trying to piletoo many things.
I was like excess overaccessorizing the basic need,
which was just support.
And so, no, we did not move intogether.
My mother was incredible.
She came out, for she came outfor like the first three or four
weeks and helped with the babyand then went home for a couple
(21:12):
of weeks and then came back fora few more weeks.
My mom was very involved.
My dad supported my mom so thatshe could support me.
It just took like I'm sure youknow, brenda, it uh, the first
year of being a mother is it can.
It's hard.
The first year of being amother is it can, it's hard and
it can be an ass kicker, and itwas just a huge initiation.
(21:32):
We ended up, drew and I, myhusband, we ended up staying in
our house on the beach with ourbaby.
I started to get the hang of it.
I have continued to get thehang of it for eight years and
and I'm so glad that thatinitial impulse that my mind
translated was not one that Itook and ran with in terms of
action steps Instead, and Ididn't even do this consciously,
(21:54):
but instead I just let itmarinate inside of me as I
slowly smoothed out and foundbalance again, and then went on
this journey of reaching clarityabout what that desire actually
was just recently.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That's such an interesting turn of events, how
it happened, how it unfolded foryou, and so beautiful.
You had this giant desire andyou actually got it in the way
that you needed is what itsounds like over here.
Yeah, Thank you, yeah, whichreally goes back here.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, thank you yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Which really goes back to you trusting yourself.
Yeah, Trusting yourself andtrusting the wave of desire that
comes through you and you.
It sounds like you were in sucha difficult situation that it
had to come in as this giantdesire.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Yeah, it did.
Yeah, it did.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Thank you, Catherine.
What is coming?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
up for you here so much.
Thank you so much for beinghere, sarah yeah and for sharing
so generously.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Brenda, about especially this particular
desire that you spoke of when wewere talking, when you were
talking about whether somethingas a source desire or an eager
desire, an ego desire, sarah,and the power, that of that
desire when it came through,like I just want to live with my
(23:20):
parents, right, and it remindsme of how the ego wants the
thing yesterday.
You know, when we get a desireand it's an ego desire, it's
like I want it in this shape,this size.
I would like for it to bedelivered yesterday and I would
(23:41):
like it to be convenient andeasy and I want it to take all
the pain away right now, in onebrushstroke.
And versus sometimes or most ofthe time, a big desire comes in
and we have no idea how thehell it's even going to happen.
(24:02):
It's more of like holy crap, Iwant this thing, I don't even
know where to begin.
Holy crap, I want this thing, Idon't even know where to begin.
And so I love how you gaveyourself the time and space and
breath.
What a gorgeous gift to evenhave that.
I can't imagine the level oftapped in you must have been to
(24:25):
be going through postpartumwhile also being intact with
your desire tapped in to forceand sleep deprived and saying,
okay, I don't want instantgratification right now.
I'm actually going to slow downand listen until it's smoothed
out and I have a little moreclarity.
(24:45):
That is such a gorgeous exampleof that, right, brenda.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Oh yeah, absolutely beautiful.
And I love, catherine, how youbrought in the piece of really
slowing down and taking yourtime.
It's such an important pieceand following desire and these
big desires take a long time tounfold, those really big, deep
ones.
And I also want to say theychange.
They can change Like you hearit was.
(25:14):
You thought it was this onething and turned out it was
something completely different.
But the beauty is that in theprocess you got what you needed
and it feels like everybody wonin that situation.
Needed and it feels likeeverybody won in that situation.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, yes, absolutely , absolutely.
Yeah.
It really has me thinking,Brenda and Sarah, about I think
in my, in my mind, my limitedmind, up until this moment I
used to feel, or I had felt,such a strong delineation
between the differences of souldesire versus ego desire.
(25:53):
I often talk to my clientsabout needs, right, sometimes,
or often, when I want somethingand it's an ego desire, it's
usually to fulfill a need, aneed, but I had.
I don't think I'd ever reallycontemplated what it looks like
(26:14):
when I have a desire.
There's a desire to be had andwanted, and I have an inkling
that maybe this is, this wouldqualify as egoic because I want
it in the exact shape and size.
And yesterday and thenautomatically I know there's a
need behind it, because my egowants to be feel safe and loved
(26:39):
and like it belongs I thoughtabout how I could slow it down
so that there's actually morebreath and growth available or
the opportunity becomesavailable.
I don't know.
I feel like that wholeconversation just has me
pondering now.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Yeah and um, you know , one thing I have found with
desire is that, um, and Brenda,you wrote a post about this
yesterday.
I think you said something thatrang so familiar and true for
me, which it was something likeI think it was that real, I
think it was the real.
You made, maybe, or maybe itwas a post, but you said
something about when you have adesire that is so big you don't
(27:23):
see how it could manifest inthis lifetime.
See how it could manifest inthis lifetime.
And that just struck me on sucha base level, because I have
had those desires where yourmind again cannot conceive of
how you could have it in thislifetime.
It seems impossible and likegoddamn when your desire, like
the wave or the current or theriver of your desire, like beats
(27:46):
against your belief systemsthat tell you you can't have it.
It's really fucking, it'spainful and it's hard.
And one thing that I havelearned about that is that in
those moments, in thosesituations where your mind can't
conceive how you can have thisthing, but the thing wants to be
(28:09):
had through you, there's notreally any external moves you
can make that are going to beeffective towards opening you up
to that energy stream orcreating, manifesting that thing
outside of you.
There's really not much you cando externally to create what
you think you want.
But what I have found that youcan do and this is so obvious,
(28:31):
this is like spirituality 101,but you have to go through it
again and again and again isthat you can open your own self,
your own system, your own heart, your own mind, your own body.
You can get in alignment.
You can get in alignment withthe energy, the wave of source
or desire, and you can justpractice incrementally opening
(28:52):
to that, like literally lettingit get into the crevices of your
body, like literally deepeningand widening your breath so that
it expands in your body,literally doing writing
practices like we did in thegolden pen, that help you expand
your mental capacity to holdthe possibility of this desire
or something like it.
You can do the inner work toalign with the wave of desire,
(29:17):
even if your mind cannotconceive of how this is possible
in this lifetime.
You can practice opening yoursystem even just to the energy
of desire itself.
And it's kind of wild how, whenyou do that, your inner
resistance, it's like that riverof desire, like water.
(29:39):
It melts your inner resistanceover time, and then you may or
may not end up with the externalform of the desire that you
thought you wanted, but you willopen yourself to the river of
desire, which contains thenutrients of life itself.
And so you find that eitherthis is what I found either you
(30:01):
get the thing that you thoughtyou wanted because you came into
alignment and you releasedresistance, and so you get it
that much faster, or you don'tget the thing that your mind
thought you wanted, but you comeinto this state of fullness and
vitality anyway, and then itdoesn't matter that you don't
have the thing, because that'swhat you wanted.
That's what you wanted in thefirst place.
(30:22):
You just didn't realize it.
You know what I mean.
Do the end of other one, that'sall you can do.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Oh, I know what you mean.
I love that you brought this inand this is such a big reason
why I wanted to have this talkwith you today, because you're
so good at alignment andco-creating with the universe
and you brought in such a bigpoint that my ego doesn't really
enjoy.
My ego doesn't really enjoythat.
(30:49):
It's not about themanifestation.
It's almost like the desirecomes in and we want this thing
and we move towards our desireand simultaneously, while we're
moving towards our desire, it'salso not about the manifestation
.
We can't get attached to it.
So it's really becomes a dancebetween holding the bigger
(31:10):
desire and also taking yourattention off of it and just
living your life following thebreadcrumbs.
Like, how do you do both?
You know it's and it gets.
It gets kind of complex and Ilike to say it gets kind of fun
because you get to really play areally big long game and I
think those big desires arereally a long game in life.
(31:31):
Yeah, can you talk more aboutgetting into alignment with the,
with yourself and with theuniverse to co-create, because I
you're just so great at this.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Yeah, thank you, getting into alignment with
yourself and then the universe,and I do think that's the order
it goes in.
I think that if you want toco-create with the wave of life
or the current of desire orsource or whatever, first of all
you have to arrive in your body, you have to show up, you have
(32:05):
to drop in, you have to workwith what's there right.
You can't bypass it.
It's not going to be fulfilling, it's not going to have depth
or roots if you try to bypassthe reality of your existence
and your experience.
So that's why I practiced andtaught yoga and will love yoga
for the rest of my life, taughtfor 15 years because that's a
practice that directly bringsyou into your body, connects you
(32:29):
to your breath, it roots you inyour physicality, which is
where you meet yourself.
So I think that you have tostart, you have to meet yourself
as you are, and so, whetherthat means meeting yourself in
the depths of depression, orthat means meeting yourself in
sickness, or that means meetingyourself in the depths of
depression, or that meansmeeting yourself in sickness, or
(32:49):
that means meeting yourself inthe middle of a divorce or
postpartum depression, or ifyou're already kind of riding
high on the wave.
Maybe it's meeting yourselfthere in exhilaration or a flow
of creativity, or whatever.
You first have to meet yourselfwhere you are first.
Have to meet yourself where youare.
And then there's that greatquote by Rumi.
(33:10):
You guys, I often use itbecause it's so good, god,
brenda, maybe we even used it inthe Golden Pen.
What's that quote?
It's like your job is not toseek for love, but to seek and
find all of the barriers insideof yourself that you've created
that prevent you from having it,or whatever.
And to me, that's really whatit's about is you have to drop
(33:33):
into your body, you have to meetyourself as you are.
And then you have to recognizewhere you have internal
resistance.
It's blocking the flow of life,and sometimes that's going to
be of a strictly physical natureillness, tumors, cancer,
whatever and sometimes it's workthat be of a strictly physical
nature illness, tumors, cancer,whatever and sometimes it's work
that you can do with yourbelief systems to clear
(33:53):
resistance.
But basically, we all carrydifferent amounts of resistance
in our minds and bodies and theresistance that we carry is what
the flow of desire is trying tomove through or around.
So you have to meet yourself.
First you have to start torecognize where you have
(34:14):
resistance that is blocking theflow of life, and then you get
to do the work of cleaning thatup to the degree that you're
able to right Through beliefwork, writing practices,
movement practices, whatever itmay be, starting to see a doctor
again after not having supportfor 30 years, whatever it may be
, you need to start showing upfor yourself, tending to your
(34:37):
physical body, working with yourmind and increasing life force
in the body.
So life force in the body to meis desire, it is God, it is
source, and so the more that wetake personal responsibility for
our own vessel, doing the work,showing up, clearing out the
(35:00):
blockages, really showing up forourselves to meet life the more
available we are to co-createwith that current of desire.
So, yeah, I think that's theorder of it you drop into
yourself, you show up foryourself, you do the work that
you're able to do right.
Your job is not to seek forlove.
Your job is to clear thebarriers that you have created
(35:23):
inside that prevent you fromfeeling it.
The more you clean yourself upon the inside energetically, the
more that wave of desire isable to move through you and the
more you're able to hear itscall and discern its call and
recognize its flavor.
And then it's like you get asurfboard and you start to
practice on the little waves andthen the slightly bigger waves,
(35:44):
and that's when you start tobuild trust with it right, and
it's just like again training inthe gym.
Then you add five pounds andthen you add five more pounds
and pretty soon you're able tocatch a pretty decent wave.
So you're beginning to learnthe basics of co-creation with
the universe.
You're beginning to learn howto co-create with desire, and I
(36:05):
think that just your ability toability to do so, your capacity
to do so just grows and growsand grows as you continue
showing up for yourself, youcontinue showing up for the
energy, for desire, and you justget better and better at it is
my experience.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Thank you.
That was an absolutely gorgeousdescription of how to get into
alignment and I'm just in lovewith this and it's so great how
you really distilled it down,because I know our listeners are
going to love that.
So you're saying arriving inyour body and being with what is
true in the moment, which is areally hard thing for people to
do, because so often we're notin agreement with where we are.
(36:59):
We're like I don't want to havepostpartum depression, I don't
want to have an illness, I don'twant to be too tired, I don't
want to whatever, fill in theblank, but we've got to start
right there, where we are.
That is a really big message.
Yeah, and and I love, when youstart bringing in Rumi, my
(37:21):
creative juices start going.
Mine too, mine too.
That's what I know.
It's getting good when sarah'sbringing in me and I love what
you said that desire comes inand it's it's.
I almost picture it, becauseyou use water metaphors a lot- I
notice which I love and thatit's moving around your internal
(37:42):
resistance.
So the more you can get yourinternal resistance massaged, I
don't want to say out of the way, but work with it like clay,
yeah, yeah, um, there's morespace, there's actually more
space in your vessel to havethat life force, energy, moving
through you literally yeah,exactly, and like you said, you
(38:05):
said I don't, I don't want tosay get it out of the way, and I
agree, and I and you said youcan massage it.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I think I think that's another piece that I
found is that that internalresistance.
There's no way to get it out ofthe way.
It's part of you.
So you alchemize it or youupgrade it or you integrate.
You integrate it right, youinclude it, you invite it in,
and that's actually one thingthat I used to always teach my
yoga students when I was stillteaching yoga to people on the
(38:33):
mat was like there's no part ofyou.
This is not a practice ofexclusion.
We're not leaving parts outthat are inconvenient.
You don't have to leave yourgrief at the door when you show
up on your mat.
This is that's not what this is.
This is a practice of inclusion.
This is actually a practice ofturning toward the parts of you
(38:54):
that you'd rather not feel,you'd rather not face, and you
just do it slowly.
You integrate as you're able toover time, but it all ties
together because the more thatyou're able to massage those
parts, include those parts,breathe.
Massage those parts, includethose parts, breathe into those
parts, integrate those parts,it's almost like you integrate
them into the walls of thevessel.
(39:15):
They become a strongercontainer to hold the universal
flow of energy that wants tomove through you Right.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Oh yeah, Thank you so much for that, catherine,
anything that you want to add tothis.
This is perfection.
I would just reiterate.
I think something you just saidis worthy of being restated Our
(39:59):
life is all about inclusion,upgrading.
I think about how often we justwant to forget that thing that
we were guilty or ashamed of, orwow, that was so embarrassing.
I just wish I never did that.
Or, oh, that was such a stupidmove.
(40:21):
I can't believe I did that.
Or, oh, my goodness, that wasjust so codependent of me.
Or that was such a rescuer ofme.
Or oh, my goodness, I was justsuch a I'm trying to think of
all the words yeah, I was such avillain.
I treated that person so badly.
Oh, I said that so imperfectly.
Oh, I was so mean.
(40:41):
That was that's one of mine.
Oh, my god, that was so mean.
Or that was so straightforward.
Oh, my goodness, there wasn'tenough love there.
And I just want to invite us allto just take a breather.
Like the truth is that, in orderfor me, one of my hangups,
(41:02):
right, in order for me to becomeeven more loving, is for me to
even notice when I'm being toodirect or too mean, or where I
can invite more love in in orderfor us to see the parts that
are potentially in the way oflife force moving through us, is
for us to notice where we aregetting stuck, and how would we
(41:24):
see it if we have vanished itfrom the room.
Like it needs to be in the roomfor us to see it.
Like we need to be willing tomeet ourselves with all of it,
not just the parts that weapprove of, because that's the
part of becoming whole.
(41:44):
Like we can clean up anythingand everything other than death.
Like we can't get this lifewrong, guys, but we can opt to
not play, and I really want toinvite everybody to play versus
get it right yeah, well said,yeah, I mean that's, and that
(42:08):
takes us off in this direction alittle bit.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
But you're absolutely right, because that that
unwillingness to get it wrong,which is maybe synonymous with
perfectionism, um, it does it.
It like it vanquishes all lifeforce from from the person
that's spinning in thatmentality and kind of just
leaves you on the floor.
You're not playing, you're notgoing to play if you're afraid
(42:33):
of getting it wrong.
And you know what?
I'll share this too, becausethat's a perfect segue,
catherine, thank you.
When I was first starting todevelop a relationship with
desire and source and theuniverse, that's one thing that
I would do a lot in thebeginning and that I still do
actually is like when I wouldget a hit that felt like an
(42:53):
intuitive hit from the universe,but I didn't actually know if
it was.
I would just give myselfpermission to follow it and see
where it led, like with thatattitude of you can't really get
it wrong.
Like let's just play with this,let's just explore what happens
if I follow this impulse.
Was that my intuition?
(43:14):
Was that source?
Was that my ego?
Was that a pattern?
I don't fucking know.
But why don't we follow it alittle ways and see where it
takes us and it was interesting.
It still is interesting becauseyou learn after every encounter
.
In a moment like that, you learnif you follow it and you see
(43:35):
where it takes you.
You start to learn more aboutwhat's driving you.
Oh, that actually was my ego,so maybe I won't follow that
next time.
Or I think that actually waslike source pouring through me.
Damn, that was awesome.
And so I think there's alearning curve.
But I also think that it's likegiving yourself permission to
just practice following thesedifferent threads, these
(43:56):
different feelings, thesedifferent instincts and seeing
where they take.
You Start small, like I alwaysstarted small nothing, life or
death.
I would just start with littlethings and see where they would
take me.
And then you learn, you startto build that muscle of trust
with yourself, with the universe.
You start to realize, youbecome more clear on what parts
(44:17):
of you are driving and what theyfeel like and what they sound
like.
And yeah, it's just thatpermission to explore and play
Like get up and fucking play.
You really can't get it wrong.
We're all going to die anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
So true, yeah, that's really beautiful.
What you're saying reminds me ofsomething of one of my teachers
once said that I'm here on thisearth to know myself, to know
how this being ticks.
And what you're saying is somuch permission for the journey
(44:51):
and the more we can know ourself, which only can come through
following our desire in someform.
Falling and failing is part ofthe journey and that's how we
learn about ourselves.
You have to be willing to messit up and get messy.
That's been a really big lessonfor me on my spiritual journey
(45:14):
and the more I've been able tofall and fail and get back up
again.
That is how you build trust withyourself, because there really
is no way to get it perfect.
It's just not going to happen.
And in the meantime is no wayto get it perfect.
It's just not going to happen.
And in the meantime you'relearning about yourself.
And the more you can learnabout yourself, then it's just
another way to be in alignmentwith yourself by being with what
(45:35):
is true, where, what are mystrengths, what am I not so
great at, what do I want tolearn.
And then you're in reality andthen you can really start to
co-create with wherever you areand build from there.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
It's a long game the doing shows the way, Meaning
(46:11):
rather than always being afraidto like dip your foot in the
pool or step into the game oflife, the doing shows the way.
So you just practice makinglittle moves, like practice
doing the doing could befollowing an impulse and you
don't actually know if thatimpulse came from source or ego,
but like, just follow it, justlike do it, do it.
The doing will show the way.
So, as you're willing to takelittle steps and fall and be
messy and make mistakes, thatpractice of just taking those
(46:34):
little steps following thebreadcrumbs, even if you're not
sure exactly who's dropping them, the doing will show the way.
And the more you build themuscle of showing up for life
and being a little bit messy andtaking chances, like you're
saying Brenda, the better youget to know yourself, the better
you start to be able to discernthe flavor of source and desire
(46:54):
and how it wants to movethrough you.
You just have to show up andpractice.
You have to show up andpractice.
You have to practice life right.
Life is practice, Practice islife.
It's all the same thing.
Life is practice.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Practice is life.
It's all the same thing, amen.
Speaking of practice and life,you talked a lot about practices
to get yourself into alignment,and you talk about yoga and
writing and belief work.
What is one or more of yourgo-to practices or rituals in
your daily life that keeps youin alignment with yourself, to
(47:26):
keep you co-creating your desire?
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Yeah, in some ways it's super fucking basic.
It's like getting enough sleep.
Nature, mother nature, is likethe most underrated cure-all I
think there is.
Like all I have to do is gooutside in a park or you know,
take a walk through a, on aforested path or just getting
outside almost always resets melike to 100%.
(47:56):
And if it doesn't reset me to ahundred percent, it resets me
significantly enough.
Um, movement is has always beena good one for me Just um, just
getting on the yoga mat.
I don't even have to stand up,I can just, you know, like roll
my back out and do a happy babypose or whatever.
But, like, movement tends to tojust help me align, it helps me
get present.
Sometimes movement can backfirequote unquote in the sense that
(48:20):
if I'm really sore or I haven'tmoved in a while, it shows me
where I'm tight and where I'mouchy and where I'm hurting.
So that can.
Sometimes that's actually takenme out of alignment a little
bit more because I don't likehow it feels.
But generally speaking,movement is medicine for me.
Meditation, always, if I canpractice, if I can develop
(48:45):
enough I'll just call itdiscipline to show up and even
just practice five or 10 minutes, 20 minutes of just seated
breath awareness meditation.
My lineage is in Vipassana so Idon't practice strict Vipassana
meditation really these days Idon't have time for it but just
(49:05):
sitting for 5, 10, 15 minuteswith my eyes closed, feeling my
breath, that, if nothing elsethat allows me to drop into my
body and feel where I'm holdingtension, that kind of has me out
of alignment and in feeling itthen I can consciously relax
around it and release some ofthat resistance.
(49:28):
And so in the releasing ofresistance you increase life
flow, you increase desire.
So just sitting and meditatinghelps me with that.
It's a little thing.
These are all like little bitesthat I take.
I have little kids so I don'thave a lot of time for like deep
, long spiritual practices thesedays, so I keep it pretty
simple.
And then beyond that, brendayou know we did a lot of writing
(49:53):
practices in the golden pen.
That's what it was all about.
So I one of the simplest waysthat I get closer to alignment
using writing practices is Iliterally sit down at my laptop
in the morning or whenever I canget a minute and I practice
just brain drain or free writing.
I just take the top layer, thetop two or three layers of
(50:15):
mental static off by just typing, typing.
Typing, just write it out, getit out on paper and then when I
get a layer or two or three down, I can actually see more
clearly what I need to do, likewhat steps I need to take and in
what order I need to take themto create more of a free flow, a
(50:36):
smooth quality to my day.
So I do that and to me that'scoming into alignment.
It's like opening the vessel,inviting more life force through
.
So I do that quite simply bysitting at my computer and
draining the excess, the staticlayer of thought, and just
getting clear on like what aremy next steps, even in the next
five or 10 minutes, and justhaving that clarity and like
(50:58):
those simple steps to follow itbrings me into alignment.
Sometimes it's just like alittle whisper of energy that it
will allow me to open to, andsometimes it's like a gush of
energy I'm like, okay, I clearedthat resistance and now there's
a lot of life force availablehere.
So let's go, let's take theproper actions, let's take the
(51:20):
right actions and keep movingthrough the day.
So it's pretty simple Movement,writing, breath, meditation,
nature.
I find enough, sleep,nourishing food that seems to be
enough for me generally.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Those are gorgeous and they're simple, but they're
not always easy.
And if you're listening andyou're like, oh, I can't do all
of that in one day, just maybechoose one and just start with
it.
I mean, I'm assuming that youbuilt these up over time.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Oh, I don't do all of these in one day either,
usually like I'm lucky.
I'm lucky if I get one or twoof these practices in, honestly,
but, um, but the combination ofthem kind of on a rotating
basis.
It's a feeling practice, right.
I just kind of feel it out andI do what's available, what is
available to me to do.
I take the steps I can take andI guess I have, you know,
(52:17):
enough practice under my beltnow that I can sort of feel my
way into alignment and I canfeel my way toward the choices
that will increase alignment andI just flow with that.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Thank you for that, catherine.
Anything you want to say, Ihave another question after you.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
You can take it away.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Okay, great, I have a question for you.
One of my favorite questionswhen we have guests on is what
is a desire that you have, Sarah, for yourself?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
Oh, that's a good one .
Yeah, yeah, that's a good one.
Um, the first one that comes tomind, I have like one, and then
the one that came in rightbehind it.
So the the first one is I haveso many.
Um, so I'm a teacher, right?
I taught asana yoga asana for 15years, and, um, now I'm a
teacher, right, I taught asanayoga asana for 15 years, and now
(53:08):
I'm starting to practiceteaching online teaching in a
different format, and as I'vestarted to build the
infrastructure to be able to dothat, I've also simultaneously
been opening the channel tosource or to desire to move
through me, to inform or inspirewhat it is I'm going to teach
(53:28):
Really.
I've gotten to this point in mylife now where my personal will
is not completely out of theway.
My ego is still very healthyand operating, but I have built
enough trust with the universethat I'm able to largely step
aside now and trust the impulsesthat are coming through, the
(53:50):
way that desire wants to movethrough me and create through me
.
And so, as I've started showingup and beginning to teach
online, the channel is wide openand the field of inspiration
and desire is so abundant thatthe muse I kind of think of her
(54:11):
as the muse too.
When she comes in this flavor,the muse is just like
downloading, downloading,downloading, downloading so many
juicy ideas that I want toteach and share that.
I'm like, okay, hold on.
Like this morning in the shower, literally to the muse, I was
like hang on a minute.
Like you have given me so muchgood shit.
Now I need like some time tolike bring this stuff through.
(54:31):
Please don't give me one morething yet, because there's
already a backup and it's justthe perfect amount of backup.
I don't think I can take anymore.
So my desire, my desire thefirst one that came through is
like I just want to deliverthese beautiful ideas that the
muse is bringing to me and Iwant to share them with other
(54:52):
people.
I want to teach them.
There's these different.
Most of them are going to workprimarily with writing, because
that's such a powerful modalitythat I use that most of these
courses that are lining up tocome through are writing based.
In fact, one of them I thinkit's going to be like the next
or maybe the one after that howfreaking timely is this is a
(55:13):
course called the Wisdom ofDesire, but there's a number of
these courses, lining up, it'slike, a little, they're lining
up in the fairy line or whatever, and they're like up in the
ferry line or whatever, andthey're like beep, beep, ready
to go.
And so my desire is to bringthem through as fully and
precisely and as powerfully as Ican feel them in the field
(55:37):
right now.
But my desire is to bring theminto creation, like, bring them
to life and do them justice,like do them justice because the
way that they are beingdownloaded to me is so vital and
so dynamic and so exhilaratingthat my desire is to be, like,
the best translator of thatenergy as I possibly can, so
(56:00):
that I can bring it through toother people.
So that's that's like thedesire that's right out front
now is to serve this energy asfully as I can.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Well, so shall it be, and maybe even better and
sweeter than you can evenpossibly imagine.
Thank you, you're so welcomeand, having been in your first
writing class online, anyway, Iwill say that I highly recommend
Sarah's work.
I highly recommend her writingcourses.
(56:30):
She is incredible.
I was so touched and moved byeverything you brought through
like you over deliver in themost beautiful of ways.
I felt so nourished and juicedup from being in your field,
thank you.
Thank you, you're so welcome.
Speaker 3 (56:52):
Well, and Brenda, one thing I want to say in response
to that that I think ties intothis conversation is that that
course that you were in, that wewere I feel like we were all in
together was a co-creation,right.
Like if one person had not beenin that course and a different
person would have been in thereinstead, it would have had a
different flavor.
But the way that all of thosewomen we came together and you
(57:16):
shared your stories and yourperspectives and your writing,
oh, like that thing was biggerthan any one of us, including me
.
I showed up as the teacher andI created the container.
The women who showed up toparticipate showed up and
brought their full heart andsoul forth and it was such a
(57:36):
beautiful weaving together.
That's co-creation.
That's a beautiful example ofco-creation and saying yes to
your desires.
And it's amazing because a fewof the women in that course have
emailed me since to share, likea juicy nugget that has
manifested since the course.
They said yes to thisparticular desire and practiced
(57:58):
massaging it through writingpractices and then within a few
days, a couple of weeks, likethey have a manifestation that
they're excited about.
So that was a really coolco-creation that we all brought
to life.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
That is so gorgeous, thank you.
We're going to drop ways to getin touch with you in the show
notes and, like I said again, Ihighly recommend reaching out to
Sarah, getting in touch withher, following her on social
media.
You always have somethingreally beautiful to bring
forward and your substack, yourwriting, is so inspiring and so
beautiful.
You have some pieces that havemoved me deeply, and so I highly
(58:37):
recommend people reading yourwork.
Thank you, you're so welcome.
Is there anything that youwould like to say that you
didn't get to say?
That is coming through youright now, before we close out
Nothing.
Speaker 3 (58:50):
I just feel really relaxed and open.
I feel like this sort oftwinkly energy in my body.
Where I'm in Seattle and wehave this beautiful winter day,
full sunshine, crisp, clear day,and I feel complete.
I feel fantastic.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
Thank you.
Well, this has been a gorgeousco-creation, this conversation
with the three of us, and you'vebeen such a generous, beautiful
, inspiring guest, and I thankyou for joining us today.
On Desire is Medicine.
Speaker 3 (59:25):
Thank you, ladies.
I've been following both ofyour work for years, and when
you invited me onto this podcast, brenda, I told Drew, I was
like I feel like I'm fangirlingreally hard, I feel like I've
you know, you have those momentsin life where you're like I've
arrived, like I've had, like Ihave those moments, you know,
from time to time, and I waslike Brenda and Catherine
(59:46):
invited me onto their podcast.
I feel like I'm having one ofthose I've arrived moments.
So thank you, because you bothhave been an inspiration to me.
Ever since I first encounteredyou.
I've been watching you two,probably long before you had any
idea who I was, cause you're,you're kind of.
You know I came into this worldafter you had already been in
(01:00:08):
it, both of you, and sofollowing your work has been
really inspiring to me as well,and so to be included in this
conversation, it really is anhonor for me.
Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Thank you, thank you so much receiving that beautiful
, generous gift of yours, and Ikind of feel like our podcast
made it when you said yes tocoming on.
So, now that we havesufficiently fangirled, thank
you for joining us and untilnext time.
Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast Desire invites us to behonest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Inviting you into our world.
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life,motherhood relationships and my
business Desire has taken me onquite a ride and every day I
practice listening to andfollowing the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
(00:35):
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desire as Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Welcome listeners and friends to the Desire as
Medicine podcast.
I am joined today by my lovelyco-host, catherine Navarro, and
we have a very special guesttoday.
Her name is Sarah Trudeau and Iam so excited that she's here.
I'm going to read her bio,because it's really beautiful.
(01:46):
Sarah Trudeau is a mother,writer and teacher.
Her spiritual journey began inchildhood and eventually led her
to the East, where she spentyears studying and practicing
Buddhist meditation and yoga.
In 2009, sarah began teachingyoga in studios, schools and
prisons.
(02:06):
Her students represent acolorful tapestry of humanity
Children, the elderly,parkinson's patients, inmates
and practitioners of every majorreligion.
Sarah majored in creativewriting at the University of
Washington and has pursued herjoy of writing for nearly 20
(02:29):
years.
You can find a diversecollection of her work on her
Substack publication, which Ihighly recommend, including her
essays, poetries and erotica.
Sarah currently teaches onlineand all of her courses are in
service to our collectivespiritual awakening.
She weaves together breathwork,movement and writing to bring
(02:59):
her students into a space ofgreater alignment.
I have taken Sarah's writingclass recently, which is what
inspired me to have Sarah on asa guest.
She has a beautiful gift.
Not only is she an amazingstoryteller, as you will hear
today, I'm sure, but she hasthis incredible gift of bringing
(03:19):
people deeply into themselves,creating conditions for deep
alignment with yourself, toco-create with the universe,
which immediately had me feel somuch more connected to my
desires when I was in her field.
So welcome, sarah.
We're so happy that you're here.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Thank you.
I'm so honored that you invitedme.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I'm so glad that you're here.
Your class just I feel like itchanged so many things for me
your writing class.
I am a writer and I was kind offeeling stuck in my own writing
and I saw your posts on socialmedia about writing and I was
just called to it.
I said I need to do this, Ineed to be in this woman's field
(04:07):
and not only reconnect with mywriting and my love of writing.
I had no idea, actually, thatit would reconnect me to my
desire.
Oh, it was beautiful.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Thank you, I think it was too.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
It was gorgeous, you.
You talk about desire in somany beautiful ways and
co-creating, and we're going toget into all the juicy bits
today.
Okay, you said something beforewe started recording that
really inspired me and I wouldlove if you would elaborate on
that.
You were talking about the waveof desire and how you feel it
(04:47):
in your body.
Can you talk about that alittle bit to just let's just
dive right in?
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
The wave of desire.
Okay, so I'm gonna take a deepbreath.
The wave of desire, it has avery distinct feeling to me.
It feels like well, it hasdifferent flavors, but often it
feels like this rush ofinspiration or clarity, or, yes,
(05:20):
Like my body comes alive, it'slike I up-level as this wave of
inspiration or desire movesthrough me, it's like it
electrifies me and it'ssomething greater than me, or
it's something different than me.
It's something that wants tomove through me.
And actually, Brenda, we talkedabout Elizabeth Gilbert's work
(05:43):
in the Golden Pen, the writingcourse that you took.
Elizabeth Gilbert wrote a bookcalled Big Magic that I think
she describes it so well, andcertainly her way of working
with the muse has clarified howI understand desire, because I
think they're very closelyrelated.
(06:07):
Desire, because I think they'revery closely related and that
it's a force that is differentfrom me, separate from me, with
a consciousness of its own thathas chosen me as its vehicle for
expression in the physicalworld, and that might be a piece
of writing that wants to comethrough, or that might be a
conversation that wants to behad between me and a lover or a
(06:30):
loved one, or that might be likea special lunch that I want to
make for my kids.
It's unlimited in how itexpresses, but it's that feel.
It's like that rush or thatfeeling of like I'm going to do
that.
That needs to happen.
That thing wants to comethrough me, the vehicle of me,
to be expressed in the world.
(06:50):
And I often do feel that it'slike a wave, because I feel like
, or I do, I feel like it's, Ifeel and this is where you start
to get into, you start to sortof like break down what desire
is and the different strainswithin it.
But I feel like life forceitself that exists regardless of
(07:13):
whether I'm here or not.
And I really do think of lifeforce as just waves and waves
and waves rolling through theuniverse and we can sort of
catch them and feel them in ourbody.
We can harmonize with thesedifferent strains of life force,
these different frequencies,right, and then we can sort of
ride those and experience whatthey have to offer and bring
(07:35):
through their particular flavor.
But all of that to me I meansort of the bigger picture would
be that's life force, energythat wants to move through me In
its more personal flavors.
I could call it desire.
That's desire that wants tomove through me In its very
specific flavors.
(07:56):
I think of that often as themuse.
The muse has showed up andshe's knocking on my door and
she wants me to write this pieceof writing door and she wants
me to write this piece ofwriting.
So it's all these differentlike flavors or strains or
currents of the same thing whichis essentially life force,
energy, God, whatever you wantto call it, and I do.
I often experience that aswaves through me.
(08:16):
It lights me up, it's sort ofit's like electrifies my body
and I recognize it now and I acton it to the best of my ability
.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You make it sound so good.
I love the metaphor of the waveand how you write it.
That just sounds.
You make it sound like so muchfun.
I personally think that desireis so much fun like that when
you learn to play with it andwriting it.
And I love what you said, thatit is greater than me, it moves
(08:48):
through me and it chose me.
It chose me, yeah, and I likehow you said you can recognize
it now, and I think that takes along time to.
You don't always recognize itat first or you think, oh, this
desire, oh, that's not for me,I'm not going to do that.
But no, if you feel that desirein your body, oh, it's for you,
(09:12):
yeah, and that could beconfronting at times.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Absolutely, absolutely, because it's not
always as we would say in ourcommunity, it's not always in
your preferences always, as wewould say, in our community.
it's not always in yourpreferences, you know.
It's not always in yourpreferences to bring a
particular work through or aparticular flavor of expression
through.
It can be quite confronting, itcan also be quite inconvenient.
It can shift the course of yourlife.
(09:37):
And so I think also, you know,I was thinking about desire in
the week leading up to this andI was thinking about how it's a
force that I have built trustwith over the years.
The more I have practiced justin, like small doses and then
(09:57):
bigger and bigger doses, feelingit, responding to it, trusting
it enough to like, like, joinhands with it and and move into
creation with it, the more ithas shown me that it's a
benevolent force that I cantrust.
Desire has never led me astray.
(10:19):
Desire has never it's led meinto conflict at times and it's
led me, it's taken me to myedges, like right right to my
edges and a little bit beyond,but but that's not a bad thing.
That grows you, that stretchesyou, um, and that refines you,
you know, um.
(10:39):
So when, when I feel that thatsurge of desire, now, even if my
mind equates the desire withbeing inconvenient or scary, I
have a lot more trust in it nowthan I ever have in my life,
because even when I have saidyes to delivering or co-creating
(11:00):
, desire, desire, desires,desire to move through me into
the world, it's only everultimately been for my, my
growth, my fuller, truerexpression, the emergence of me,
the emergence of my authenticself.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
You just literally nailed what this podcast is
about.
We really this is what we'retalking about here, and we're
massaging this whole idea in allthese episodes for going on two
years of desire and how itchooses you and how it grows you
, and you said it's not alwayscomfortable.
I think that's why often wewant to turn our back on it, but
(11:43):
if you're brave enough to opento the desire that chooses you
and co-create with it, it doestake you to your edges and
beyond.
It's uncomfortable and I thinkthat it's supposed of like
working out at the gym, I feellike you can equate spiritual
(12:07):
growth and spiritual practicealmost directly with, like,
physical training.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
It's not particularly enjoyable, like showing up at
the gym and lifting weights anddoing crunches, and if you're
doing it, if you're doing itright quote, unquote you will,
you'll meet your edge, you'llmove right up to your edge
consistently.
But that's how you build muscle, that's how you build strength,
that's how you create moreopenness in your body.
We're built for it, like we'rebuilt to expand and um, and it's
(12:34):
no different to me not reallythat different going to the
physical gym and lifting weights, as it is a spiritual practice
that takes you to your edges ofexpression or whatever.
It's not particularlycomfortable, but it's the
direction we're meant to bemoving.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
We're meant to be moving in the direction of
expansion always.
I totally agree.
Thank you for that.
I have a question for you howdo you discern between when a
desire is that force movingthrough you versus an ego driven
desire?
Yeah, how do you discernbetween that?
I?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
feel like I am constantly working with that,
like figuring out what is what,and I was thinking this morning
on, I was actually thinking ofthis this morning.
Um, I think ego is part ofspirit.
Like I don't put ego like inthe corner, like a bad girl or
boy, or like make it sit outsidein the cold, like ego.
We came into these bodies withan ego because it's meant to be
(13:32):
there.
It's like every other part ofus that that we came in with ego
as part of it.
And so I feel like the name ofthe game is integration.
It's like harmonizing thedesire or the will or the habits
of your ego with, like thatgreater flow or that greater
wave of desire, and bringingthem together so that the ego or
(13:55):
the mind because the ego tendsto live in the mind, the mind,
the ego is in service to thegreater flow of energy.
So when my ego has a desirelike, oh, my ego wants like a
dirty chai, like yesterday, oh,my god, my taste buds want a
dirty chai.
That sounds so fucking good,but I know that it's.
(14:17):
It destroys my stomach and it'sprobably going to ruin my
appetite.
It's not the best.
It's not the best thing to putin my body right now.
It's not source.
Source is not guiding me to thedirty chai.
My taste buds or my preferencesare, and so I just get to make
a choice in that moment, like,okay, I understand the
consequences of both choosing todrink the dirty chai or not and
(14:39):
then you know, I make a choiceand I chose to drink the dirty
chai yesterday.
So then I just continuestreaming source through my body
and I enjoy the dirty chai asfully as I can as I'm drinking
it.
So I don't neglect the desiresof my ego.
I don't always act on themeither, and I think that it's
(15:02):
important to recognize thatevery choice we make,
particularly when we make themrepeatedly, they start to create
grooves, like neural grooves inthe mind, habitual energetic
grooves in the body.
And so we do need to beconscious of what we're giving
into, like what egoic desires wetend to give into, what egoic
(15:23):
ruts we tend to fall into,because they're just going to
get deeper and deeper.
So, like anything in life, Ithink it's a balance where it's
like let yourself have yourhumanity, let your ego have what
it wants, sometimes just like,merge them, but also be
conscious of the habits you'recreating and the grooves that
(15:44):
you're creating, but also beconscious of the habits you're
creating and the grooves thatyou're creating.
And and so I think then, to getback to your original question,
how do you discern between the,the desires of the ego, and the
desires of, of desire of sourceor God?
I think sometimes it just takestime to be able to recognize
(16:05):
which which it is.
I'll give you an example.
Um, when I first had mydaughter Karuna, eight and a
half years ago, I I went intopostpartum depression quickly.
It was like a really slipperyslope for me.
It was, you know, sleepdeprivation and bleeding nipples
and, uh, being in a postpartumbody, it's exhaustion.
(16:29):
It was so many factors comingat me all at once that I went
into postpartum depressionquickly and I stayed there for a
couple of months.
And, um, at the peak of that,or maybe the low of that, I had
this flash, this flash where Ithis desire, I felt this desire
(16:54):
for and what I've realized nowit's just kind of like,
clarified to the point where Ican speak to it today with this
level of clarity.
At the time, eight years ago, atthe depths of postpartum
depression, my mind identifiedthe desire as I want my parents
to move in right down the road,or I want to move in like I want
(17:18):
our families to merge me, myhusband and our new baby with my
family of origin.
I want to move in with them sothey can support me, because
they were really good supporters, but they were across town and
it wasn't that convenient.
And so I had this flash, likethis full body desire to move in
with my parents.
(17:39):
It was a full body thing, fullbody, and it was interesting
because most of me got on boardwith that idea and was like,
yeah, yeah, yeah, I want to movein with my family, but later,
not very much later and then, asthe years continued to go on, I
(17:59):
would think back on that momentand I'd be like that's not
really what I wanted.
I do not want to live with myparents God bless them.
I do not want to merge homeswith my family.
What was I thinking?
So what was that?
There was this whoosh of energythat was like a full body, yes.
(18:22):
And my mind translated itinstantly as move in with my
family, because that feels likewhat I need.
And then it literally took meyears, until very recently, just
with this question mark in mymind all the time like, why?
Why did I feel that way?
Because that's not actuallywhat I wanted.
It just became clear to merecently.
(18:42):
I was like, oh, I just wantedsupport, I wanted support, oh, I
just wanted support, I wantedsupport.
And my mind translated that asthe closest translation my mind
could find was move in with myparents.
It was the closest, it was likethe closest neighborhood we
could get in.
You know what I mean.
Really, I didn't want to movein with my parents, I just
(19:05):
wanted to sleep through thenight and I wanted someone there
to hold the baby when I took ashower and I wanted to feel
supported and I didn't feelsupported.
And so what I just unwoundrecently was like, oh, that
desire I think that desire thatI felt in my body was from
source.
It was a clean, pure, powerfuldesire to feel supported.
(19:30):
But my mind grabbed it and waslike, oh, it means this, and
maybe that was the egoic desire.
That was the mental translation.
It was the closest my mindcould get, and it took me years
to tease those apart andrecognize that, even though it
felt like a full body yes, itwas a full body, yes, it was
powerful that wasn't preciselywhat I wanted.
(19:56):
What I wanted was was to livewith my husband and our
beautiful house on the beachwith our new baby and just have
the support I needed.
So, um, I think it can be hardto tease them apart, like what
is the ego and what is thespirit?
Like who's pulling for whathere?
Uh, sometimes it can be hard totease them apart, like what is
the ego and what is the spirit?
Like who's pulling for whathere?
Sometimes it can take years tofigure out which is which, like
it has for me in that situation.
But I think we just do our bestand we get as close as we can,
(20:20):
we translate as accurately aspossible and then we continue
learning what is what?
Thank you for that beautifulstory.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
What an incredible moment that this desire came in
for you that you want to livewith your parents.
It was almost like it came inas so big and so clear because
you needed so much help.
Yes, yeah.
And what did you end up doing?
By the way, Did they move inwith you?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
end up doing, by the way, did they move in with you?
No, they didn't, thank goodness.
Not because I don't love them.
I love them dearly, but I justthat wouldn't have been the
right thing.
That was like trying to piletoo many things.
I was like excess overaccessorizing the basic need,
which was just support.
And so, no, we did not move intogether.
My mother was incredible.
She came out, for she came outfor like the first three or four
weeks and helped with the babyand then went home for a couple
(21:12):
of weeks and then came back fora few more weeks.
My mom was very involved.
My dad supported my mom so thatshe could support me.
It just took like I'm sure youknow, brenda, it uh, the first
year of being a mother is it can.
It's hard.
The first year of being amother is it can, it's hard and
it can be an ass kicker, and itwas just a huge initiation.
(21:32):
We ended up, drew and I, myhusband, we ended up staying in
our house on the beach with ourbaby.
I started to get the hang of it.
I have continued to get thehang of it for eight years and
and I'm so glad that thatinitial impulse that my mind
translated was not one that Itook and ran with in terms of
action steps Instead, and Ididn't even do this consciously,
(21:54):
but instead I just let itmarinate inside of me as I
slowly smoothed out and foundbalance again, and then went on
this journey of reaching clarityabout what that desire actually
was just recently.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That's such an interesting turn of events, how
it happened, how it unfolded foryou, and so beautiful.
You had this giant desire andyou actually got it in the way
that you needed is what itsounds like over here.
Yeah, Thank you, yeah, whichreally goes back here.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, thank you yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Which really goes back to you trusting yourself.
Yeah, Trusting yourself andtrusting the wave of desire that
comes through you and you.
It sounds like you were in sucha difficult situation that it
had to come in as this giantdesire.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Yeah, it did.
Yeah, it did.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Thank you, Catherine.
What is coming?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
up for you here so much.
Thank you so much for beinghere, sarah yeah and for sharing
so generously.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
I'm thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Brenda, about especially this particular
desire that you spoke of when wewere talking, when you were
talking about whether somethingas a source desire or an eager
desire, an ego desire, sarah,and the power, that of that
desire when it came through,like I just want to live with my
(23:20):
parents, right, and it remindsme of how the ego wants the
thing yesterday.
You know, when we get a desireand it's an ego desire, it's
like I want it in this shape,this size.
I would like for it to bedelivered yesterday and I would
(23:41):
like it to be convenient andeasy and I want it to take all
the pain away right now, in onebrushstroke.
And versus sometimes or most ofthe time, a big desire comes in
and we have no idea how thehell it's even going to happen.
(24:02):
It's more of like holy crap, Iwant this thing, I don't even
know where to begin.
Holy crap, I want this thing, Idon't even know where to begin.
And so I love how you gaveyourself the time and space and
breath.
What a gorgeous gift to evenhave that.
I can't imagine the level oftapped in you must have been to
(24:25):
be going through postpartumwhile also being intact with
your desire tapped in to forceand sleep deprived and saying,
okay, I don't want instantgratification right now.
I'm actually going to slow downand listen until it's smoothed
out and I have a little moreclarity.
(24:45):
That is such a gorgeous exampleof that, right, brenda.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Oh yeah, absolutely beautiful.
And I love, catherine, how youbrought in the piece of really
slowing down and taking yourtime.
It's such an important pieceand following desire and these
big desires take a long time tounfold, those really big, deep
ones.
And I also want to say theychange.
They can change Like you hearit was.
(25:14):
You thought it was this onething and turned out it was
something completely different.
But the beauty is that in theprocess you got what you needed
and it feels like everybody wonin that situation.
Needed and it feels likeeverybody won in that situation.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, yes, absolutely , absolutely.
Yeah.
It really has me thinking,Brenda and Sarah, about I think
in my, in my mind, my limitedmind, up until this moment I
used to feel, or I had felt,such a strong delineation
between the differences of souldesire versus ego desire.
(25:53):
I often talk to my clientsabout needs, right, sometimes,
or often, when I want somethingand it's an ego desire, it's
usually to fulfill a need, aneed, but I had.
I don't think I'd ever reallycontemplated what it looks like
(26:14):
when I have a desire.
There's a desire to be had andwanted, and I have an inkling
that maybe this is, this wouldqualify as egoic because I want
it in the exact shape and size.
And yesterday and thenautomatically I know there's a
need behind it, because my egowants to be feel safe and loved
(26:39):
and like it belongs I thoughtabout how I could slow it down
so that there's actually morebreath and growth available or
the opportunity becomesavailable.
I don't know.
I feel like that wholeconversation just has me
pondering now.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Yeah and um, you know , one thing I have found with
desire is that, um, and Brenda,you wrote a post about this
yesterday.
I think you said something thatrang so familiar and true for
me, which it was something likeI think it was that real, I
think it was the real.
You made, maybe, or maybe itwas a post, but you said
something about when you have adesire that is so big you don't
(27:23):
see how it could manifest inthis lifetime.
See how it could manifest inthis lifetime.
And that just struck me on sucha base level, because I have
had those desires where yourmind again cannot conceive of
how you could have it in thislifetime.
It seems impossible and likegoddamn when your desire, like
the wave or the current or theriver of your desire, like beats
(27:46):
against your belief systemsthat tell you you can't have it.
It's really fucking, it'spainful and it's hard.
And one thing that I havelearned about that is that in
those moments, in thosesituations where your mind can't
conceive how you can have thisthing, but the thing wants to be
(28:09):
had through you, there's notreally any external moves you
can make that are going to beeffective towards opening you up
to that energy stream orcreating, manifesting that thing
outside of you.
There's really not much you cando externally to create what
you think you want.
But what I have found that youcan do and this is so obvious,
(28:31):
this is like spirituality 101,but you have to go through it
again and again and again isthat you can open your own self,
your own system, your own heart, your own mind, your own body.
You can get in alignment.
You can get in alignment withthe energy, the wave of source
or desire, and you can justpractice incrementally opening
(28:52):
to that, like literally lettingit get into the crevices of your
body, like literally deepeningand widening your breath so that
it expands in your body,literally doing writing
practices like we did in thegolden pen, that help you expand
your mental capacity to holdthe possibility of this desire
or something like it.
You can do the inner work toalign with the wave of desire,
(29:17):
even if your mind cannotconceive of how this is possible
in this lifetime.
You can practice opening yoursystem even just to the energy
of desire itself.
And it's kind of wild how, whenyou do that, your inner
resistance, it's like that riverof desire, like water.
(29:39):
It melts your inner resistanceover time, and then you may or
may not end up with the externalform of the desire that you
thought you wanted, but you willopen yourself to the river of
desire, which contains thenutrients of life itself.
And so you find that eitherthis is what I found either you
(30:01):
get the thing that you thoughtyou wanted because you came into
alignment and you releasedresistance, and so you get it
that much faster, or you don'tget the thing that your mind
thought you wanted, but you comeinto this state of fullness and
vitality anyway, and then itdoesn't matter that you don't
have the thing, because that'swhat you wanted.
That's what you wanted in thefirst place.
(30:22):
You just didn't realize it.
You know what I mean.
Do the end of other one, that'sall you can do.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Oh, I know what you mean.
I love that you brought this inand this is such a big reason
why I wanted to have this talkwith you today, because you're
so good at alignment andco-creating with the universe
and you brought in such a bigpoint that my ego doesn't really
enjoy.
My ego doesn't really enjoythat.
(30:49):
It's not about themanifestation.
It's almost like the desirecomes in and we want this thing
and we move towards our desireand simultaneously, while we're
moving towards our desire, it'salso not about the manifestation
.
We can't get attached to it.
So it's really becomes a dancebetween holding the bigger
(31:10):
desire and also taking yourattention off of it and just
living your life following thebreadcrumbs.
Like, how do you do both?
You know it's and it gets.
It gets kind of complex and Ilike to say it gets kind of fun
because you get to really play areally big long game and I
think those big desires arereally a long game in life.
(31:31):
Yeah, can you talk more aboutgetting into alignment with the,
with yourself and with theuniverse to co-create, because I
you're just so great at this.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Yeah, thank you, getting into alignment with
yourself and then the universe,and I do think that's the order
it goes in.
I think that if you want toco-create with the wave of life
or the current of desire orsource or whatever, first of all
you have to arrive in your body, you have to show up, you have
(32:05):
to drop in, you have to workwith what's there right.
You can't bypass it.
It's not going to be fulfilling, it's not going to have depth
or roots if you try to bypassthe reality of your existence
and your experience.
So that's why I practiced andtaught yoga and will love yoga
for the rest of my life, taughtfor 15 years because that's a
practice that directly bringsyou into your body, connects you
(32:29):
to your breath, it roots you inyour physicality, which is
where you meet yourself.
So I think that you have tostart, you have to meet yourself
as you are, and so, whetherthat means meeting yourself in
the depths of depression, orthat means meeting yourself in
sickness, or that means meetingyourself in the depths of
depression, or that meansmeeting yourself in sickness, or
(32:49):
that means meeting yourself inthe middle of a divorce or
postpartum depression, or ifyou're already kind of riding
high on the wave.
Maybe it's meeting yourselfthere in exhilaration or a flow
of creativity, or whatever.
You first have to meet yourselfwhere you are first.
Have to meet yourself where youare.
And then there's that greatquote by Rumi.
(33:10):
You guys, I often use itbecause it's so good, god,
brenda, maybe we even used it inthe Golden Pen.
What's that quote?
It's like your job is not toseek for love, but to seek and
find all of the barriers insideof yourself that you've created
that prevent you from having it,or whatever.
And to me, that's really whatit's about is you have to drop
(33:33):
into your body, you have to meetyourself as you are.
And then you have to recognizewhere you have internal
resistance.
It's blocking the flow of life,and sometimes that's going to
be of a strictly physical natureillness, tumors, cancer,
whatever and sometimes it's workthat be of a strictly physical
nature illness, tumors, cancer,whatever and sometimes it's work
that you can do with yourbelief systems to clear
(33:53):
resistance.
But basically, we all carrydifferent amounts of resistance
in our minds and bodies and theresistance that we carry is what
the flow of desire is trying tomove through or around.
So you have to meet yourself.
First you have to start torecognize where you have
(34:14):
resistance that is blocking theflow of life, and then you get
to do the work of cleaning thatup to the degree that you're
able to right Through beliefwork, writing practices,
movement practices, whatever itmay be, starting to see a doctor
again after not having supportfor 30 years, whatever it may be
, you need to start showing upfor yourself, tending to your
(34:37):
physical body, working with yourmind and increasing life force
in the body.
So life force in the body to meis desire, it is God, it is
source, and so the more that wetake personal responsibility for
our own vessel, doing the work,showing up, clearing out the
(35:00):
blockages, really showing up forourselves to meet life the more
available we are to co-createwith that current of desire.
So, yeah, I think that's theorder of it you drop into
yourself, you show up foryourself, you do the work that
you're able to do right.
Your job is not to seek forlove.
Your job is to clear thebarriers that you have created
(35:23):
inside that prevent you fromfeeling it.
The more you clean yourself upon the inside energetically, the
more that wave of desire isable to move through you and the
more you're able to hear itscall and discern its call and
recognize its flavor.
And then it's like you get asurfboard and you start to
practice on the little waves andthen the slightly bigger waves,
(35:44):
and that's when you start tobuild trust with it right, and
it's just like again training inthe gym.
Then you add five pounds andthen you add five more pounds
and pretty soon you're able tocatch a pretty decent wave.
So you're beginning to learnthe basics of co-creation with
the universe.
You're beginning to learn howto co-create with desire, and I
(36:05):
think that just your ability toability to do so, your capacity
to do so just grows and growsand grows as you continue
showing up for yourself, youcontinue showing up for the
energy, for desire, and you justget better and better at it is
my experience.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Thank you.
That was an absolutely gorgeousdescription of how to get into
alignment and I'm just in lovewith this and it's so great how
you really distilled it down,because I know our listeners are
going to love that.
So you're saying arriving inyour body and being with what is
true in the moment, which is areally hard thing for people to
do, because so often we're notin agreement with where we are.
(36:59):
We're like I don't want to havepostpartum depression, I don't
want to have an illness, I don'twant to be too tired, I don't
want to whatever, fill in theblank, but we've got to start
right there, where we are.
That is a really big message.
Yeah, and and I love, when youstart bringing in Rumi, my
(37:21):
creative juices start going.
Mine too, mine too.
That's what I know.
It's getting good when sarah'sbringing in me and I love what
you said that desire comes inand it's it's.
I almost picture it, becauseyou use water metaphors a lot- I
notice which I love and thatit's moving around your internal
(37:42):
resistance.
So the more you can get yourinternal resistance massaged, I
don't want to say out of the way, but work with it like clay,
yeah, yeah, um, there's morespace, there's actually more
space in your vessel to havethat life force, energy, moving
through you literally yeah,exactly, and like you said, you
(38:05):
said I don't, I don't want tosay get it out of the way, and I
agree, and I and you said youcan massage it.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I think I think that's another piece that I
found is that that internalresistance.
There's no way to get it out ofthe way.
It's part of you.
So you alchemize it or youupgrade it or you integrate.
You integrate it right, youinclude it, you invite it in,
and that's actually one thingthat I used to always teach my
yoga students when I was stillteaching yoga to people on the
(38:33):
mat was like there's no part ofyou.
This is not a practice ofexclusion.
We're not leaving parts outthat are inconvenient.
You don't have to leave yourgrief at the door when you show
up on your mat.
This is that's not what this is.
This is a practice of inclusion.
This is actually a practice ofturning toward the parts of you
(38:54):
that you'd rather not feel,you'd rather not face, and you
just do it slowly.
You integrate as you're able toover time, but it all ties
together because the more thatyou're able to massage those
parts, include those parts,breathe.
Massage those parts, includethose parts, breathe into those
parts, integrate those parts,it's almost like you integrate
them into the walls of thevessel.
(39:15):
They become a strongercontainer to hold the universal
flow of energy that wants tomove through you Right.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Oh yeah, Thank you so much for that, catherine,
anything that you want to add tothis.
This is perfection.
I would just reiterate.
I think something you just saidis worthy of being restated Our
(39:59):
life is all about inclusion,upgrading.
I think about how often we justwant to forget that thing that
we were guilty or ashamed of, orwow, that was so embarrassing.
I just wish I never did that.
Or, oh, that was such a stupidmove.
(40:21):
I can't believe I did that.
Or, oh, my goodness, that wasjust so codependent of me.
Or that was such a rescuer ofme.
Or oh, my goodness, I was justsuch a I'm trying to think of
all the words yeah, I was such avillain.
I treated that person so badly.
Oh, I said that so imperfectly.
Oh, I was so mean.
(40:41):
That was that's one of mine.
Oh, my god, that was so mean.
Or that was so straightforward.
Oh, my goodness, there wasn'tenough love there.
And I just want to invite us allto just take a breather.
Like the truth is that, in orderfor me, one of my hangups,
(41:02):
right, in order for me to becomeeven more loving, is for me to
even notice when I'm being toodirect or too mean, or where I
can invite more love in in orderfor us to see the parts that
are potentially in the way oflife force moving through us, is
for us to notice where we aregetting stuck, and how would we
(41:24):
see it if we have vanished itfrom the room.
Like it needs to be in the roomfor us to see it.
Like we need to be willing tomeet ourselves with all of it,
not just the parts that weapprove of, because that's the
part of becoming whole.
(41:44):
Like we can clean up anythingand everything other than death.
Like we can't get this lifewrong, guys, but we can opt to
not play, and I really want toinvite everybody to play versus
get it right yeah, well said,yeah, I mean that's, and that
(42:08):
takes us off in this direction alittle bit.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
But you're absolutely right, because that that
unwillingness to get it wrong,which is maybe synonymous with
perfectionism, um, it does it.
It like it vanquishes all lifeforce from from the person
that's spinning in thatmentality and kind of just
leaves you on the floor.
You're not playing, you're notgoing to play if you're afraid
(42:33):
of getting it wrong.
And you know what?
I'll share this too, becausethat's a perfect segue,
catherine, thank you.
When I was first starting todevelop a relationship with
desire and source and theuniverse, that's one thing that
I would do a lot in thebeginning and that I still do
actually is like when I wouldget a hit that felt like an
(42:53):
intuitive hit from the universe,but I didn't actually know if
it was.
I would just give myselfpermission to follow it and see
where it led, like with thatattitude of you can't really get
it wrong.
Like let's just play with this,let's just explore what happens
if I follow this impulse.
Was that my intuition?
(43:14):
Was that source?
Was that my ego?
Was that a pattern?
I don't fucking know.
But why don't we follow it alittle ways and see where it
takes us and it was interesting.
It still is interesting becauseyou learn after every encounter
.
In a moment like that, you learnif you follow it and you see
(43:35):
where it takes you.
You start to learn more aboutwhat's driving you.
Oh, that actually was my ego,so maybe I won't follow that
next time.
Or I think that actually waslike source pouring through me.
Damn, that was awesome.
And so I think there's alearning curve.
But I also think that it's likegiving yourself permission to
just practice following thesedifferent threads, these
(43:56):
different feelings, thesedifferent instincts and seeing
where they take.
You Start small, like I alwaysstarted small nothing, life or
death.
I would just start with littlethings and see where they would
take me.
And then you learn, you startto build that muscle of trust
with yourself, with the universe.
You start to realize, youbecome more clear on what parts
(44:17):
of you are driving and what theyfeel like and what they sound
like.
And yeah, it's just thatpermission to explore and play
Like get up and fucking play.
You really can't get it wrong.
We're all going to die anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
So true, yeah, that's really beautiful.
What you're saying reminds me ofsomething of one of my teachers
once said that I'm here on thisearth to know myself, to know
how this being ticks.
And what you're saying is somuch permission for the journey
(44:51):
and the more we can know ourself, which only can come through
following our desire in someform.
Falling and failing is part ofthe journey and that's how we
learn about ourselves.
You have to be willing to messit up and get messy.
That's been a really big lessonfor me on my spiritual journey
(45:14):
and the more I've been able tofall and fail and get back up
again.
That is how you build trust withyourself, because there really
is no way to get it perfect.
It's just not going to happen.
And in the meantime is no wayto get it perfect.
It's just not going to happen.
And in the meantime you'relearning about yourself.
And the more you can learnabout yourself, then it's just
another way to be in alignmentwith yourself by being with what
(45:35):
is true, where, what are mystrengths, what am I not so
great at, what do I want tolearn.
And then you're in reality andthen you can really start to
co-create with wherever you areand build from there.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
It's a long game the doing shows the way, Meaning
(46:11):
rather than always being afraidto like dip your foot in the
pool or step into the game oflife, the doing shows the way.
So you just practice makinglittle moves, like practice
doing the doing could befollowing an impulse and you
don't actually know if thatimpulse came from source or ego,
but like, just follow it, justlike do it, do it.
The doing will show the way.
So, as you're willing to takelittle steps and fall and be
messy and make mistakes, thatpractice of just taking those
(46:34):
little steps following thebreadcrumbs, even if you're not
sure exactly who's dropping them, the doing will show the way.
And the more you build themuscle of showing up for life
and being a little bit messy andtaking chances, like you're
saying Brenda, the better youget to know yourself, the better
you start to be able to discernthe flavor of source and desire
(46:54):
and how it wants to movethrough you.
You just have to show up andpractice.
You have to show up andpractice.
You have to practice life right.
Life is practice, Practice islife.
It's all the same thing.
Life is practice.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Practice is life.
It's all the same thing, amen.
Speaking of practice and life,you talked a lot about practices
to get yourself into alignment,and you talk about yoga and
writing and belief work.
What is one or more of yourgo-to practices or rituals in
your daily life that keeps youin alignment with yourself, to
(47:26):
keep you co-creating your desire?
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Yeah, in some ways it's super fucking basic.
It's like getting enough sleep.
Nature, mother nature, is likethe most underrated cure-all I
think there is.
Like all I have to do is gooutside in a park or you know,
take a walk through a, on aforested path or just getting
outside almost always resets melike to 100%.
(47:56):
And if it doesn't reset me to ahundred percent, it resets me
significantly enough.
Um, movement is has always beena good one for me Just um, just
getting on the yoga mat.
I don't even have to stand up,I can just, you know, like roll
my back out and do a happy babypose or whatever.
But, like, movement tends to tojust help me align, it helps me
get present.
Sometimes movement can backfirequote unquote in the sense that
(48:20):
if I'm really sore or I haven'tmoved in a while, it shows me
where I'm tight and where I'mouchy and where I'm hurting.
So that can.
Sometimes that's actually takenme out of alignment a little
bit more because I don't likehow it feels.
But generally speaking,movement is medicine for me.
Meditation, always, if I canpractice, if I can develop
(48:45):
enough I'll just call itdiscipline to show up and even
just practice five or 10 minutes, 20 minutes of just seated
breath awareness meditation.
My lineage is in Vipassana so Idon't practice strict Vipassana
meditation really these days Idon't have time for it but just
(49:05):
sitting for 5, 10, 15 minuteswith my eyes closed, feeling my
breath, that, if nothing elsethat allows me to drop into my
body and feel where I'm holdingtension, that kind of has me out
of alignment and in feeling itthen I can consciously relax
around it and release some ofthat resistance.
(49:28):
And so in the releasing ofresistance you increase life
flow, you increase desire.
So just sitting and meditatinghelps me with that.
It's a little thing.
These are all like little bitesthat I take.
I have little kids so I don'thave a lot of time for like deep
, long spiritual practices thesedays, so I keep it pretty
simple.
And then beyond that, brendayou know we did a lot of writing
(49:53):
practices in the golden pen.
That's what it was all about.
So I one of the simplest waysthat I get closer to alignment
using writing practices is Iliterally sit down at my laptop
in the morning or whenever I canget a minute and I practice
just brain drain or free writing.
I just take the top layer, thetop two or three layers of
(50:15):
mental static off by just typing, typing.
Typing, just write it out, getit out on paper and then when I
get a layer or two or three down, I can actually see more
clearly what I need to do, likewhat steps I need to take and in
what order I need to take themto create more of a free flow, a
(50:36):
smooth quality to my day.
So I do that and to me that'scoming into alignment.
It's like opening the vessel,inviting more life force through
.
So I do that quite simply bysitting at my computer and
draining the excess, the staticlayer of thought, and just
getting clear on like what aremy next steps, even in the next
five or 10 minutes, and justhaving that clarity and like
(50:58):
those simple steps to follow itbrings me into alignment.
Sometimes it's just like alittle whisper of energy that it
will allow me to open to, andsometimes it's like a gush of
energy I'm like, okay, I clearedthat resistance and now there's
a lot of life force availablehere.
So let's go, let's take theproper actions, let's take the
(51:20):
right actions and keep movingthrough the day.
So it's pretty simple Movement,writing, breath, meditation,
nature.
I find enough, sleep,nourishing food that seems to be
enough for me generally.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Those are gorgeous and they're simple, but they're
not always easy.
And if you're listening andyou're like, oh, I can't do all
of that in one day, just maybechoose one and just start with
it.
I mean, I'm assuming that youbuilt these up over time.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Oh, I don't do all of these in one day either,
usually like I'm lucky.
I'm lucky if I get one or twoof these practices in, honestly,
but, um, but the combination ofthem kind of on a rotating
basis.
It's a feeling practice, right.
I just kind of feel it out andI do what's available, what is
available to me to do.
I take the steps I can take andI guess I have, you know,
(52:17):
enough practice under my beltnow that I can sort of feel my
way into alignment and I canfeel my way toward the choices
that will increase alignment andI just flow with that.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Thank you for that, catherine.
Anything you want to say, Ihave another question after you.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
You can take it away.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Okay, great, I have a question for you.
One of my favorite questionswhen we have guests on is what
is a desire that you have, Sarah, for yourself?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
Oh, that's a good one .
Yeah, yeah, that's a good one.
Um, the first one that comes tomind, I have like one, and then
the one that came in rightbehind it.
So the the first one is I haveso many.
Um, so I'm a teacher, right?
I taught asana yoga asana for 15years, and, um, now I'm a
teacher, right, I taught asanayoga asana for 15 years, and now
(53:08):
I'm starting to practiceteaching online teaching in a
different format, and as I'vestarted to build the
infrastructure to be able to dothat, I've also simultaneously
been opening the channel tosource or to desire to move
through me, to inform or inspirewhat it is I'm going to teach
(53:28):
Really.
I've gotten to this point in mylife now where my personal will
is not completely out of theway.
My ego is still very healthyand operating, but I have built
enough trust with the universethat I'm able to largely step
aside now and trust the impulsesthat are coming through, the
(53:50):
way that desire wants to movethrough me and create through me
.
And so, as I've started showingup and beginning to teach
online, the channel is wide openand the field of inspiration
and desire is so abundant thatthe muse I kind of think of her
(54:11):
as the muse too.
When she comes in this flavor,the muse is just like
downloading, downloading,downloading, downloading so many
juicy ideas that I want toteach and share that.
I'm like, okay, hold on.
Like this morning in the shower, literally to the muse, I was
like hang on a minute.
Like you have given me so muchgood shit.
Now I need like some time tolike bring this stuff through.
(54:31):
Please don't give me one morething yet, because there's
already a backup and it's justthe perfect amount of backup.
I don't think I can take anymore.
So my desire, my desire thefirst one that came through is
like I just want to deliverthese beautiful ideas that the
muse is bringing to me and Iwant to share them with other
(54:52):
people.
I want to teach them.
There's these different.
Most of them are going to workprimarily with writing, because
that's such a powerful modalitythat I use that most of these
courses that are lining up tocome through are writing based.
In fact, one of them I thinkit's going to be like the next
or maybe the one after that howfreaking timely is this is a
(55:13):
course called the Wisdom ofDesire, but there's a number of
these courses, lining up, it'slike, a little, they're lining
up in the fairy line or whatever, and they're like up in the
ferry line or whatever, andthey're like beep, beep, ready
to go.
And so my desire is to bringthem through as fully and
precisely and as powerfully as Ican feel them in the field
(55:37):
right now.
But my desire is to bring theminto creation, like, bring them
to life and do them justice,like do them justice because the
way that they are beingdownloaded to me is so vital and
so dynamic and so exhilaratingthat my desire is to be, like,
the best translator of thatenergy as I possibly can, so
(56:00):
that I can bring it through toother people.
So that's that's like thedesire that's right out front
now is to serve this energy asfully as I can.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Well, so shall it be, and maybe even better and
sweeter than you can evenpossibly imagine.
Thank you, you're so welcomeand, having been in your first
writing class online, anyway, Iwill say that I highly recommend
Sarah's work.
I highly recommend her writingcourses.
(56:30):
She is incredible.
I was so touched and moved byeverything you brought through
like you over deliver in themost beautiful of ways.
I felt so nourished and juicedup from being in your field,
thank you.
Thank you, you're so welcome.
Speaker 3 (56:52):
Well, and Brenda, one thing I want to say in response
to that that I think ties intothis conversation is that that
course that you were in, that wewere I feel like we were all in
together was a co-creation,right.
Like if one person had not beenin that course and a different
person would have been in thereinstead, it would have had a
different flavor.
But the way that all of thosewomen we came together and you
(57:16):
shared your stories and yourperspectives and your writing,
oh, like that thing was biggerthan any one of us, including me
.
I showed up as the teacher andI created the container.
The women who showed up toparticipate showed up and
brought their full heart andsoul forth and it was such a
(57:36):
beautiful weaving together.
That's co-creation.
That's a beautiful example ofco-creation and saying yes to
your desires.
And it's amazing because a fewof the women in that course have
emailed me since to share, likea juicy nugget that has
manifested since the course.
They said yes to thisparticular desire and practiced
(57:58):
massaging it through writingpractices and then within a few
days, a couple of weeks, likethey have a manifestation that
they're excited about.
So that was a really coolco-creation that we all brought
to life.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
That is so gorgeous, thank you.
We're going to drop ways to getin touch with you in the show
notes and, like I said again, Ihighly recommend reaching out to
Sarah, getting in touch withher, following her on social
media.
You always have somethingreally beautiful to bring
forward and your substack, yourwriting, is so inspiring and so
beautiful.
You have some pieces that havemoved me deeply, and so I highly
(58:37):
recommend people reading yourwork.
Thank you, you're so welcome.
Is there anything that youwould like to say that you
didn't get to say?
That is coming through youright now, before we close out
Nothing.
Speaker 3 (58:50):
I just feel really relaxed and open.
I feel like this sort oftwinkly energy in my body.
Where I'm in Seattle and wehave this beautiful winter day,
full sunshine, crisp, clear day,and I feel complete.
I feel fantastic.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
Thank you.
Well, this has been a gorgeousco-creation, this conversation
with the three of us, and you'vebeen such a generous, beautiful
, inspiring guest, and I thankyou for joining us today.
On Desire is Medicine.
Speaker 3 (59:25):
Thank you, ladies.
I've been following both ofyour work for years, and when
you invited me onto this podcast, brenda, I told Drew, I was
like I feel like I'm fangirlingreally hard, I feel like I've
you know, you have those momentsin life where you're like I've
arrived, like I've had, like Ihave those moments, you know,
from time to time, and I waslike Brenda and Catherine
(59:46):
invited me onto their podcast.
I feel like I'm having one ofthose I've arrived moments.
So thank you, because you bothhave been an inspiration to me.
Ever since I first encounteredyou.
I've been watching you two,probably long before you had any
idea who I was, cause you're,you're kind of.
You know I came into this worldafter you had already been in
(01:00:08):
it, both of you, and sofollowing your work has been
really inspiring to me as well,and so to be included in this
conversation, it really is anhonor for me.
Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Thank you, thank you so much receiving that beautiful
, generous gift of yours, and Ikind of feel like our podcast
made it when you said yes tocoming on.
So, now that we havesufficiently fangirled, thank
you for joining us and untilnext time.
Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast Desire invites us to behonest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!