73 ~ F*ck Your Fears with Shane Kulman

Unleash your power within by embracing your desires as we welcome Shane Kulman, a celebration expert and champion of creative self-expression. Shane shares her audacious philosophy of "F*ck Your Fears," encouraging everyone to overcome personal limitations for creative expansion.

Shane's dynamic approach to life, underscored by her "10 Commandments," helps sensitive and creative individuals harness their full potential through curiosity, authenticity, and joy.

This episode explores the transformative connection between desire and fear, as Shane shares her personal journey of working with her own fears, and how they intersect with play, curiosity and self expression.

Episode Highlights:
• Embracing the concept of “F*ck Your Fears”
• Shane's journey from traditional education to advocacy for creative expression
• Importance of community in overcoming fear
• Connection between fear and desire
• The role of play and curiosity in facing fears
• Engaging with fear creatively
• Transforming fears into opportunities for growth
• The healing power of being seen and heard
• Encouragement to explore unique self-expression and authenticity
• Easy to implement practices to play with your own fears

Follow Shane:  Website, Instagram and Facebook

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Episode Transcript

Catherine (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire.

Brenda (00:14):
Inviting you into our world.
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life,motherhood relationships and my
business Desire has taken me onquite a ride and every day I
practice listening to andfollowing the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the

(00:35):
feminine.

Catherine (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student,

(00:58):
even after decades of inner work.

Brenda (01:00):
We are humble beginners on the mat, still exploring,
always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.

Catherine (01:12):
On the Desire as Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.

Brenda (01:24):
Welcome listeners and friends to the Desire as
Medicine podcast.
I am joined today by my amazingco-host, catherine, and we have
a very special guest today whoI cannot wait to introduce to
you.
Her name is Shane Kulman.
She is a dear friend of mineand here's her bio.
It's so amazing.

(01:46):
Shane Kulman is a celebrationexpert and an advocate for
creative self-expression.
Her first soiree was apreschool teacher and then a
therapist, which revived herdeep passion for play and where
she developed the use ofunconventional methods to grow.
Shane guides sensitive,creative individuals to break

(02:12):
free from limitations andembrace their full potential.
She helps people fuck theirfears and find their fierce
freedom, and find their fiercefreedom Through Shane's
signature programs and offerings.
She uses her 10 commandments tofuck personal fears that get in

(02:33):
the way of creative expansion.
She combines the principles ofcuriosity, authenticity and joy
to help clients create the livesthat they love.
Focused on her own growth andleadership, and the co-creator
of Parn, which is a dynamicapproach to play, attention

(02:56):
revealing and noticing Parn, shesees connection and fun as the
most holy.
She's a best-selling author, aplaywright, a teacher of improv
and an advice columnist in theRockaway Times.
Shane has an insatiable thirstfor connection and fun and

(03:19):
desires that all people seetheir self-expression as the
magic carpet ride for thefullest life expression.
I just absolutely love this bio.
I've known Shane for at least adecade and she is one of the
most authentic, loving,courageous women I know.

(03:43):
Being her field is truly a joybecause she holds such a strong
pull for play and honesty andself-expression.
So welcome, shane.
Thank you so much for having me.
It is so our pleasure.

(04:03):
I can't help it.
Every time I say fuck yourfears, I just want to laugh.

Shane Kulman (04:10):
Yeah, I'm so glad I love you know.
I love knowing the impact ofeven just the title.
That might be enough.

Brenda (04:17):
It might just be enough.
Fuck your fears.
It certainly leaves you with acuriosity, right?
What does that mean?
Fuck your fears, you can dothat.
So this just leads me to myfirst question, which is
probably so obvious why fuckyour fears?
Can you tell us about that,please?

Shane Kulman (04:37):
Yeah, so I as a child, as an adult, really trust
myself and I was teaching acourse I don't remember the name
and during the middle of thecourse I said fuck your fears.
And all I needed was the energythat I said behind it and I was
like I'm changing the name,that's what we're doing.
And I started like anothercourse based on that and it was

(05:01):
like a six week thing that Ijust declared in the moment and
it ran and it got bigger than meand at the time I was still in
a uncomfortable position ofbeing in the education world and
then I was teaching women andgoddess work and it was huge for

(05:22):
me to be an educator with amaster's degree in behavior and
special education.
To now declare I'm a witch andfuck your fears is what I'm
leading with, so that in itselfwas me fucking my fears, was
using curse words as an educatorwhere I had really put myself
on the podium of being a thoughtleader in the world of autism,

(05:46):
in the world of specialeducation, and I was like I
don't want to do that anymore.
It's too much of a system, Ican't break into it, I'm
miserable and they want me to beugly, Like there was so much
unapproval and disapproval ofhow I was operating that I was
like Nope, I am a witch whoteaches fuck your fears.
And that felt so much betterand courageous.

Brenda (06:11):
So courageous.
As someone who's been in theschool system for 22 years and
we've talked about this I reallyget it coming out as something
different in the education worldor any kind of corporate work
right where you're really in thesystem is scary, yeah, and you

(06:31):
did that in a really courageousway.
Can you talk more about thefucking of your own fears?
You mentioned that when yousaid that you were in the world
of education and you're comingout using curse words, fucking
fears, coming out as a witch how, how did you become the person
that could hold people throughfucking your fears?

(06:53):
How did you fuck your own fears?
Oh, I love that question.

Shane Kulman (06:56):
So I have a lot of fears.
People tend to think like, oh,shane, and this is the feedback
I got was I can't even come toyour show, like you just don't
have any fears.
It's weird for me and I'm likeI have the most fears and the
teacher and the school ofthought that I learned was
through my improv acting teacherand that improv acting work was

(07:20):
based on saying no and thatalone brings up rejection and
being left out and not gettingwhat I want, which is truly what
desire is based on, what fun isbased on.
It's like getting yeses.
And so I would go to this classand the first two times I went

(07:40):
to the class, I just knew how toput on a show.
I knew how to be pretty, I knewhow to be funny, I knew how to.
I did not know how to expressmy inner life.
I was just numb and living infear, basically until I was 32
years old in terms ofself-expression, I just wanted
to look the same, fit in, feelcool and be happy.

(08:04):
I guess that was all I knew.
And then this teacher gave mefeedback the first day, and her
name is Erin Flowers, like herreal name, and she gave me
feedback on a scene and she saidthat's good, kind of like sex
in the city, it's entertaining.
But we're here to feel and Iwas like wait, is this woman not

(08:25):
telling me I'm great, like Idon't, I'm like malfunction,
malfunction.
And and I left that class withenergy.
So I was living in Bay Ridge,brooklyn, and I had to drive to
the Upper West Side for 7pm,which, if you're a New Yorker
it's horrible could take threehours.
But I did it and I went and Ileft feeling energized, hopeful,

(08:49):
creative, interested, and I waslike that's interesting.
Now I'm a behaviorist, so Inoticed everything.
I went back again in a bad moodtraffic, running out of gas,
having to the trifecta, use thebathroom, all the things.
And then I left again with hope, energy, positivity and I was

(09:10):
like, okay, there's some sciencehere.
And at the time I was workingwith children with autism, three
and four years old.
I was working with theirparents and there was lack of
hope, lack of energy, lack ofexcitement from the parents.
And here I was working withkids and in a system that didn't

(09:30):
work, and I was using thesimilar techniques we learned in
my acting class with the kids.
I was doing what I what iscalled sound and movement.
But it was really mirrorneuroning each other, that's how
I say it.
And they got interested.
And the first time I realized itwas working, this little kid

(09:51):
came to me and every day we wereworking together.
The family came from Egypt forservices.
So now I show up and they'relike okay, fix my kid, I don't
know what.
We're in America, we're herefor the best services.
And he said to me I didn't knowwhat he was doing and I was
curious.

(10:11):
He had been asking me forlavender.
In his nonverbal way, that wasthe sound my lavender bottle
made.
So I went to class that nightand I was him.
I acted him out and it wasprofound.
It was the most fun, the mostinteresting, the most curious

(10:35):
person to embody, because hedidn't have words, he didn't
speak, but he was really curiousabout the dust flying in the
air, about sounds, about smells.
And so for me to have thatplayground, to explore that in a
non-logical, non-smart way, butjust being embodied taught me
that guess what this kid mightsave the world and the planet.

(10:57):
And I got to experience whatit's like to be other people, to
be real in an imaginary set ofcircumstances, and that's where
my world completely changed andI stopped going on dates.
I stopped drinking, I stoppedall recreational drugs, I
stopped dates, I stoppedsocializing.

(11:18):
I just went to class everyWednesday at 7 pm for four years
and then for 10 years on awhole.
But after four years I startedsocializing again.
I just needed all my money, mytime, my energy to go to that
place because I was most my soul, was getting attention.

(11:41):
Now I'm not the kind, I'm not acommitted person.
I don't go to the gym certaindays a week, I don't meditate
every day.
I've never applied myself touse my teacher's words in that
way.
I mean, I was brought up beingtold I'm not applying myself,
that there's something wrongwith me, I'm lazy, whatever, and
this is where I got to shine.
I got to play within a structureand this is where I got to
shine.

(12:02):
I got to play within astructure and the structure is
something that I teach and stilluse as my unconventional
methods, and I've used it when Itaught kids in prison and I've
used it with millionaire parentsand I've used it with everyday
people and I use it myself everyday in my relationships and my

(12:22):
friendships and with myself.
It myself every day in myrelationships and my friendships
and with myself.
So this improv acting class,which was taught by Aaron
Flowers and Carl Stilitano, wascreated with real like Stella
Adler acting techniques, butalso the dismissal of 12-step

(12:42):
programs which were based ontelling a story, and so the
teacher of my teachers basicallycreated this dynamic of people
learn when they're told no Like.
That's when you get to feel,and feeling is where it's at,
because our fears are reallybeautiful fairy tales that we
believe.

Brenda (13:06):
Our fears are fairy tales.
Can you say more about that?

Shane Kulman (13:11):
Yes, and you'll hear it from me the whole time
is that our creativity is.
You know, theater is creativity.
So if we bring our deepest fear, let's say death right, death
of loved ones, death ofourselves, that's where my fears

(13:32):
always tend to go back to.
It is right now.
Our world creates stories aboutwhat happens after death.
Nobody actually knows.
There are people who've crossedover to be you know for a moment
or two, and they have a storyabout the light.
But but is it inarguably true?
No, did it happen to them?
Yes, it is a story.
You know any religion, anythingthat talks about.

(13:54):
So going along those lines, it'sinteresting, it's a place to
get curious, and everybody,including myself, wants to
create a story that's comforting, so that we feel that our loved
ones are doing well afterthey've left this earth, and so
I can see so many things asdeath right, like working with

(14:17):
an autistic, a child with autism, and their parents.
It's the death of what theywanted as a child.
There's some death there, andso the idea that the fairy tales
whether it's religion or aGrimm's fairy tale or a fairy
tale that we make up all thetime it's interesting, it's

(14:37):
creative, it makes us feel atpeace and we can buy into it, or
we can be entertained and thatmakes it lighter, like wouldn't
it be nice if what I thoughtafter death is true, wouldn't it
be nice if I can go to bedfeeling peace about so-and-so
being sick, Wouldn't it be nice?

(14:59):
And then it can actually be aplay, it could be a song, it
could be a poem.
Maybe it's shared, maybe it'snot shared, but creativity is
definitely the magic carpet toput us at ease and to give us a
place to feel safe, to put thefear in something.
So it's not just like I'mafraid of that.
People stay in fears for theirwhole lives.

Brenda (15:52):
Thank you.
That's so absolutely beautiful.
I love how you're talking aboutfears and curiosity and play.
I could just feel the sense ofcringe and close and want to
hide in our beds or stay home ornot follow our biggest desires
when we have a fear.
But you're saying, take the noand go with it, follow the
energy of that, because the nohas so much sensation in it.
And what if you went into thateven more?
Is that what you're saying?

Shane Kulman (16:12):
Oh, you're such a great listener, it's so
important to go deep into the noso that you could find more joy
.
That is the place where nobodywants to go.
And if you said, shane, you'regonna be talking about death on
a podcast, even maybe threemonths ago, maybe six months, I
would be like I'm definitely notdoing that because it's gonna

(16:35):
bring it in.
Like there was something taughtto me that if you say it out
loud it's gonna manifest.
But just like improv, if yougive it a container, if you give
it a space to live, it willhave its own little party and
then dissipate, versus thethought of it every day all the

(16:55):
time as this like lingeringfruit fly that won't go away.
It's really a terrible way tolive.
So it's like, okay, we're goingto talk about fear today, so
I'm ready for that, there's acontainer for it and I can talk
about death.
It is not going to bring it.
And just to give an example ofthat, when I was 30, my dad had

(17:20):
stomach cancer and I was reallynervous about it.
I mean, I was nervous sincethree years old.
He's a heavy smoker At threeyears old I was like hiding his
cigarettes.
So one day I wasn't feelingwell and my neighbor, who's a
brilliant French artistphotographer, he's like let's do
a scene.
So we did a scene that he wasmy dad on his deathbed and he

(17:42):
just died and I played me.
Now I don't know, any other dayI would have said no.
My acting teacher knew all mytriggers.
She knew they would come up.
She would never suggest it orshe would try and I would shut
it down.
But for some reason I wasn'tfeeling well.
My defenses were down and Itrust him.
I kid you not, my dad has beenhealthy since that day.

(18:02):
Like going into the dark of thedarkness.
Like going into the dark of thedarkness.
It just proved to me, like youcan say the fear, you can even
embody it and pretend it, andthen guess what, when you're out
of it, it's like that shit'snot even real.
Like then you get to celebrateand so that pendulum that swings

(18:31):
both ways of the darkest of thedark and the lightest of the
light, is real.
So you cannot have your bigdesires, your big joy, if you're
not willing to look at thestuff that is painful,
uncomfortable and filled withfear.

Catherine (18:41):
I am jumping in because I have a question.
Yes, and I feel like Shane andBrenda are on the same page and
Catherine over here is like hangon a second, hang on, hang on,
hang on.
Am I hearing this correctly?
So am I hearing when you say wehave to take the no?

(19:04):
Are you saying that when fearcomes up, you're almost looking
at it like a no inside of us,like, oh, I want to cross the
bridge, I'm afraid to cross thebridge.
Nope, like almost as ifsomething is that what we're
doing?
Are we swapping out fear withno?

Shane Kulman (19:19):
I love that yes.
And the quickest example Icould see is friends who are my
age-ish, like 40s, 50s, who havesecretly given up on love, like
they've said no to some fairytale, to that gives them
expansive romantic love.
And actually one of my clientssaid the other day he's like
yeah, I just I don't.
I don't know if I could dealwith that kind of pain, and he

(19:42):
hasn't even met anyone.
But the idea that when you geta no, it's, or when you feel a
yes, it's like putting the no ontop of it because it's too much
feeling, it's too much in thatmoment even to imagine.
Could I be the person who fallsin love and has a prince
charming of the, of the or theprincess charming of what I want

(20:04):
?
No, and a lot of people make itvery smart and I was one of
those people and I was like no,maybe I'll have like five loves
and maybe there's no such thingas one person who I could love.
Like I make it very sensiblebut the truth is I'm afraid of
getting hurt.
And, ps, now I'm all in loveand I hear myself being like,

(20:25):
yeah, I think one person can betotally great, but the idea of
getting a no has so many layersand is so in-depth of what it
feels like to get rejected orfeel pain.
It feels like death, livingdeath.

Catherine (20:43):
This is wild for me.
I want to just let Brenda Shaneand all the listeners know that
I have never thought about myfear like a no.
Like I know in my body what ahell yes feels like I get those
often.
Like hell, yes, I want to godown that mountain on a
snowboard, with no lessons andnot being a skier.
No, like I'm good, but I hadnot.

(21:14):
And to me that seems like asensible response for a woman
that is in her 50s.
Like, no, I don't want to go doan extreme sport when I've
never done it before.
Right.
But I'm trying to think ofother fears that I have and I'm
like have I felt them or evenever addressed them like a no

(21:36):
that's coming up in my body?
And I have to say, shane, upuntil this very moment, no, I
had not.
So thank you.

Shane Kulman (21:46):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I've never made that analogy,that a fear is a no, but so
thank you, right, brenda?

Catherine (21:55):
and I.
We talk about desire.
We definitely talk aboutrelationships all the time, and
the biggest relationship that wetalk about is the relationship
with ourselves, and we talkabout no being.
You know boundary setting andno is really powerful.

(22:16):
And you don't really know youryes until you know your no.
And so now I'm like hang on, ifI don't know my yes, I'm
getting hot.
Hang on.
If I don't know my yes until Iknow my no, and really my fears
are a no, then it's almost likeI'm looking at my life right now

(22:39):
as if there's this windowopening going.
There's so much more color If Ican start dipping into the
places that I have that havecurrent, currently have cobwebs
because I haven't wanted totouch it because of fear, or etc
.
Like visibility is one of myfears.
Like I don't really like that.
I always feel like the internetis a place where it's you

(23:02):
having conversation and all thethousands and thousands of
people you don't know are on theother side.
Like I'm still surprised whensomeone says to me oh yes, I
listened to that episode.
Blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like Brenda, can youbelieve that this person it's
like six, seven people removedfrom me heard X, y or Z.
It's wild to know that, whileat the same time loving doing
this so much, there's such a.

(23:24):
It's so complex.
Okay, I'm going to hand thisover to Brenda because I'm
having my own existentialwhatever over here,
transformational moment.

Brenda (23:38):
I love it.
Thank you for coming in withthat, catherine, and sharing
that, because when we weretalking about that before Shane,
it landed it didn't land for methe way it landed for Catherine
.
I was like, oh, so you'resaying fear is like a no.
That felt very normal for meover here and now I'm hearing

(23:59):
you never talked about thatbefore in that particular way
and that's really wild.

Shane Kulman (24:05):
It's the brilliance of brilliance coming
together.
And it's also really importantfor listeners, because I know
and I don't ever know where itis People are like, yay, shane,
I love what you're teaching.
And then they drop off and I'mlike, ooh, I'm so curious about
what happened.
And if they can't articulatethe way you just beautifully did

(24:26):
, catherine, they just thinksomething's wrong with them and
they become a fan or they'resecretly hiding from me, and I
work with people on theirvisibility.
I have this video, vixen, thatcomes up twice a year and it's
18 days of live prompts, becauseI love business and I love
self-development, and they gohand in hand because we are.

(24:47):
I love business and I loveself-development, and may go
hand in hand because we are.
And so I have a conviction thateveryone needs and I'll use
needs with intention to be seenin their brilliance, whether
they know their brilliance ornot.
Having worked with kids,everyone's inner child has that
moment of look at me, look whatI'm doing, look what I'm doing.

(25:08):
Every single child, even thechildren who are, you know,
neurodivergent and special needs, they need to be seen in their
light, and so I don't want totake that away from anybody.
So I'm glad, catherine, thatyou built that bridge for those
people who are like wait, I'mglad she said it like that,

(25:30):
because me and Brenda we'refloating on this like we get
each other Yay, and once I'm inthat place with someone, it's
great for me and that person,but everyone else sort of like
gets sucked into the vacuum of Idon't know what they're talking
about, but they're happy.

Brenda (25:44):
Beautifully said.
It really goes back to what yousaid earlier, shane, about
giving something space tobreathe.
And Catherine, you justdemonstrated that so gorgeously
and just for our listeners toknow that Catherine has removed
her sweatshirt.
Now she's back in her t-shirt,because talk about fear.
To come on and say, here's thisthing that I've never heard

(26:05):
before and it landed for me sodifferently than what you are
talking about, is an extremelybrave thing to do.
I mean, I feel fire in my bodyjust talking about it.
I feel tingling in my feet andyou know, giving people, giving
the thing, whatever it is, spaceto breathe Because, like you

(26:26):
said, shane, when somethingcomes up, that's a little
different.
Maybe it's a fear, maybe it's ano, maybe it's a different kind
of thought.
We tend to think that we'rewrong because it's not the
mainstream.
But what I've learned is no,you're not wrong.
It's your personal, uniqueexpression that needs to be said
.
If you're thinking it, it's notwrong because everyone else

(26:50):
isn't thinking it.
It's something that camethrough you and please say it.
And this is where we get allthe unique expression and
medicine in the world from womenwho are brave enough to shine
Really.
Yeah, I am personally lovingthis interaction.
Thank you so much.

Shane Kulman (27:12):
And I want to add to that it's like brave enough
to shine and brave enough toshow up and be like poop, you
know, and brave enough to belike guess what?
I'm a mess, I'm crying and I'mstill a leader.
And that's where my hope isthat we're moving into the
future of not Instagram readyleaders, you know, and we have a

(27:34):
lot of that going on alreadyand it feels challenging.
The other day, I went live inmy women's group with a puffy
too much eating salt dinner thenight before face and I was like
, oh, this is one of thosemoments.
Of course, I'm so trained inthis, in the fear process, that

(27:54):
I got happy right away, but Ithink a lot of people are
staying in their fears for 20years.
I spoke to a woman the othernight 20 years, Well, more than
that, she's 86.
And she was talking about howher parents treated her unfairly
and I was like, wow, I just waslistening.
She's not my client, she's afamily friend.

(28:14):
And I was like this is a greatexample of fear.
I couldn't even celebrate orcoach her.
I was just like I'm justlistening, because she had
answers for everything and I waslike, wow, I am so grateful
that I was so fearful that Ididn't have a choice.
So, being seen being on atheater stage and sharing real

(28:36):
life stuff that sucked as quoteunquote improv, people after the
show would be like, oh my God,I can't believe.
Imagine that was real and I'mlike it was.
You know, I didn't say anything, but I don't have to own it,
just for myself, just for mypeers.
And then it was compost left onthe stage.
So, Catherine, what you justshared, it's like real, it's

(28:58):
witnessed, we saw it, ithappened, you had a physical
experience.
And now it's going to besomething else.
You know, and that's how fearworks.
It's not an isolated project.
You can't go and read about itand do a writing in a book.
You really have to do it withothers and that's the importance
of us coming together, Just totie back in the brilliance.

(29:19):
We have a certain brainmechanism or physical body
mechanism that won't let us feelas much fear as we can when
we're with others.
We can't do it alone.
It feels like we're never goingto get out.
I'm going to be in a psychosis.
What if I have to call 911 andI really lose my shit.
And it's okay to have that.

(29:41):
It just means you need reallygood friends who are really
smart.
Yes, therapy is great, Having atherapist is great, but there's
a power dynamic there andhaving peers that are equally as
smart and know how to holdspace is the best move that
everybody needs.
Otherwise, you might be the86-year-old who is talking about

(30:01):
her parents squashing her down.
I mean, that's like 80, I can'teven say it.
80 years of fear, Still verymuch alive.

Catherine (30:12):
I want to piggyback for all listeners something that
Shane spoke about right now,which is so, so important, so I
want to make sure that I pin itfor everyone's ears.
Which is information is onething.
So we can read a book, we cango to a class, we can take a
course, we can becomepsychiatrists, psychologists, we
can be in a practice for Xamount of years, but nothing is

(30:35):
like the medicine of beingwitnessed, and being witnessed
by a professional, I want to say, also has a lot of strength in
that.
And it's an interesting prison,the informed client.
It's like such golden handcuffswhen we are just stewing in our

(30:56):
own knowledge trying to figureout air quotes like why am I
sabotaging myself Air quotes?
Why do I feel this fear Airquotes?
Why am I afraid of this?
I shouldn't be afraid of this.
Why am I afraid I'm just gonnause something silly?
Why am I afraid of the dark?
I'm afraid, you know there'snothing in the dark.
Why do I still believe inmonsters?
Or why am I afraid of theapocalypse or whatever that is?

(31:18):
And if I'm just thinking aboutit and stewing on it in my own
house, right or in my own, myown mind, and not sharing it
with others and I'm not givingit any airtime, or if I choose
to give it airtime and with aprofessional, and then I'm
talking to the professional andI'm like I know I keep doing
this, why do I keep doing this?
And all I'm looking for is ananswer, as if having the answer

(31:43):
would help.
The why we have somethingdoesn't help as much as what
next, and that the what next, Ifeel, pops up and blooms so

(32:03):
beautifully when you are inpairs or more of people.
Beautifully when you are inpairs or more of people.
Brenda and I have this amazingopportunity on this podcast to
feel all the different energiesof the third between our guests
and ourselves.
And everybody can experiencethis when you're with your
friends and you're with yourcolleagues and you're telling
them and sharing with themsomething that's happening and

(32:25):
nobody needs to give you adviceand you don't have to have the
perfect answer as to why you'reafraid of something or the
perfect analysis for something.
Just giving it space and beingpatient with yourself and
allowing things to move throughis a perfect place to be.

Shane Kulman (32:45):
Ah, yeah, yes, I'm taking notes on what you're
saying.
That is so.
And especially, I'll justmention, in the coaching world,
oh my God, there's so many painbodies, leading pain bodies in
terms of I want to prove thatI'm good, so let's do a lot of
things.
Prove that I'm good, so let'sdo a lot of things.

(33:10):
And you know, the somatic wayand the way to really process is
not a mind process.
That's what college is for andall the things, the systems.
But you can go through onething and like, let like, feel
what that feels like.
And heat is a really greatteacher.
It's like, where is the heat inour body?

(33:31):
I don't know enough about it.
Somebody was talking about likethermogenics or whatever, but
they use heat as a way to tellwhere there's rupture or where
there's something wrong with thebody, and so just allowing
words to permeate ourphysicality is so powerful, and
that means we need to give itspace.

(33:53):
And I was learning what was itcalled?
It was like a power dynamic.
What's a humiliation circle?
I was being led in ahumiliation circle and it's like
you come up with a sentencethat feels humiliating and the
other person delivers it andthen you, as the person in the

(34:14):
process get to ask about give itto me again.
So an example would be I didthis with a client and she kept.
Her biggest fear was I'm a fatslut, Like that was the line
that brought like terror to herbody.
So the idea was, whenever sheasked for it again, I would say
it again.
And it's like it's a way tolike bring in trauma and then

(34:37):
work with it.
And she kept doing it fast,Like say it again, say it again,
say it again.
And I was like okay, let's takea break.
What's happening for you?
And that's the kind of spacethat fear does not want, because
words dissipate feelings.
And so when we're in the schoolof talking and talking, and
talking and talking, we're notgiving ourselves the space and

(35:04):
that's for the you know, thefacilitator or the friend to be
like can we just slow down?
Like even now I'm talking fast.
I got excited, Like what am Iafraid?
Or what am I not?
Feeling is like I am amazingand I know amazing women and
when we get together I'm goingto feel so alive.

(35:26):
What am I going to do with thatenergy after?
And here's my fear You're notgoing to feel so alive.
What am I going to do with thatenergy after?
And here's my fear You're notgoing to use it right?
You're going to go and sit andscroll on your phone because
you're a loser.
Like that critical voice wantsto win.
Don't get too high on yourself.
Don't really think you're abrilliant genius, because you

(35:48):
should have been somewhere bynow.
You should have been on NBCmorning show.
It don't even happen.
You know what I mean.
Wow, that felt so good to sayout loud.
So it's like letting theexpansion happen means what now?
Like like my guy today wrote onhis Facebook wall that we're in

(36:09):
love.
He and I'm like oh my God, Icannot deal.
I don't know what to do withthat.
Even now, my foot got tight.
I'm like, so I had to take aminute and be like okay, shane,
this man loves you so much.
You put it on his Facebookthing and people are I'm
sweating even saying it.

(36:31):
So just noticing that your bodyis an instrument and it gives
you messages and we can deny it.
We can be like oh, I just gotto chill.
Or oh, like a fear, like a justa, like a fruit fly.
This is one of those moments Ihave it what I call a fear

(36:52):
whiplash.
It's like it comes up and thenyou just smack it away, and the
easiest one I can think of issomebody you're hanging out and
somebody says oh, that should bea t-shirt.
There's so many t-shirtsalready.
Oh, I should be a coach.
I'm helping people.
Ah, there's so many coachesalready.
You know who doesn't have afear whiplash Doctors, lawyers,

(37:16):
anyone who's a professional.
There's droves of people whoare signing up for those kinds
of things.
Nobody thinks twice about thefear that someone else is
already doing it, twice aboutthe fear that someone else is
already doing it.
But as creatives, as artists,as self-proclaimed coaches, as

(37:39):
mentors, it's the mostvulnerable thing because we are
basically saying, hey, I believein myself so much that I'm
going to charge money for it.
And we all know people likethat.
We all have these teachers.
I've invested over 200K in myworld for business and
self-development and it takessome chutzpah to say like, I'm
charging 60,000 for two weekendsfor you to learn A, b and C,

(38:03):
but people do it and people payit and that's how I earn my
living.
So I want to invite everyone toreally look at whatever fears
they've already burned throughand guess what?
There's always going to be moreGood.
You're alive.
That's important.
But this started because it'sabout giving it space.
So the idea of having this fearwhiplash is and one of my

(38:29):
commandments number three is getcurious.
So instead of whacking it awayor proclaiming it's stupid, it's
wrong, be like oh, that'sinteresting.
That idea keeps coming back.
Maybe I should write it down.
Or maybe I should just starttalking about it and see if
anybody knows anybody.
And that's the kind of space.

(38:49):
Space doesn't mean you'resitting in a cave meditating on
it.
It means let me just let itbreathe.
What's it like to have abusiness idea and have a
corporate job and feel afraidevery day?
And what's it like to beliberated?
Ooh, what's it like to be Shane?
What's it like to be Brenda?
What's it like to be Catherineand to just be in a stage, in a

(39:15):
state of wonderment.
That is medicine.

Catherine (39:20):
I want to circle back to something you said earlier
and see if I can tie it intothis.
When you say giving fear spaceand I think that's the third
commandment, if I'm correct yes,get curious, get curious.
Is that similar to what youmean with play within a
structure, or is that somethingelse?

(39:42):
Or is it the same?

Shane Kulman (39:44):
I love you forever for that.
So I wanted to find play for aminute, because it's rare to
meet an adult that gets it, andI only get it because I've
worked with kids.
Play what I'm talking about hasno agenda, no winner and no
loser, just the experience.
And I might ask you to repeatyour question.

(40:06):
But I wanted to find this first, because that's where things
get messed up, when there's awinner and a loser.
And that's the way our cultureis, that's the way our
government is, that's the wayour sports teams are.
People subscribe to thatmethodology of winner and loser
and I'm like I want to all win,can't we all win?
And that's so sometimes when Ispeak to people they don't

(40:27):
really know what I'm saying butthey're like oh, she's so
playful.
Because I get really childlikeexcitement about what is it like
to play.
And the best example is twopeople who really understand
contact improv, where you'rejust moving and touching and
seeing what happens.
Or you're just strolling alongsinging a song, hoping it rhymes

(40:51):
, or you're just strolling alongsinging a song, hoping it
rhymes.
And the opposite play is, let'ssay, a child who's playing and
I'm building a track with them,with trains, and the mother
comes in and says, ooh, whatcolor is this?
How many trains are there?
And there is a right and awrong answer.
And that is not the play that Ilove.

(41:13):
It's not fun anymore Becauseeven if the mother thinks she's
being helpful, the child gets,let's say, they got it wrong.
The mother's like no, and thatcadence of voice and that's the
same thing we have internally,like, whatever it is, no, I

(41:34):
don't want to go on a date withyou, or no, I'm not going to
work with you.
There's like a oh, I did itwrong.
Oh, how did I mess this up?
And even if it's just afleeting moment, let's say
you're the most self-developedand you're like nope, a no is
beautiful, I feel good about it.
Someone unsubscribed from myemail list, that's okay.

(41:55):
They took away themselves andthey, you know, leaving
beautiful space.
But there's a moment, afleeting moment of rejection,
and that's the kind of thingwhere we start to learn these
tiny lessons of I did it wrongand we make a deal with
ourselves that say, well, I'mnot going to do that anymore.
That was uncomfortable, it waspainful and I feel that

(42:17):
rejection.
Okay, so that was a tangent,but you asked something so good.
You asked about play andsomething else.

Catherine (42:26):
So I'll I'll sum it up over here.
You were talking about the 10commandment, number three.
Here you were talking about the10 commandment number three,
which is about creativity, andthen we also spoke about or you
spoke about giving fear space,like whether it's space and
words doing our best to notdissipate feelings.
I'm going to wrap it up.
I'm going to use your words toanswer the question, so not

(42:48):
using any words to dissipate ourfeelings.
And you used a gorgeous exampleof the humiliation circle and
your client moving reallyquickly and how you had her slow
down so that you could ask hey,what's going on here?
Then you get a differentexample of how you feel excited
in our conversation here andthat maybe you're going quickly,
and so I introduced thequestion circling back to

(43:09):
something you had said veryearly in the conversation was,
which was bringing in play, butbringing play within a structure
, and I was like, oh, is thatanother way of saying giving
fear some space?
But you actually went on anddescribed play a little more
beautifully.
By the way, if I had to wrap itup, I would say you're saying

(43:31):
play is present when there is norejection, so you are truly
playing when there is no winnerand no loser.
You're playing where there.
It's just about the experienceand within that experience,
there is no no and there is norejection.
There's no way to get it wrong.

(43:51):
It's just a way for you to havea good time.

Shane Kulman (43:55):
Yes, and I'm so glad you're giving it to me
because I do want to say thereis.
There can be rejection, andit's if you've ever seen two
kids play together, even thoughthere's no winner and loser,
there's someone who wantssomething.
There's no winner and loser.
There's someone who wantssomething, there's a desire.
And then it's about how do I,as a kid, deal with what if I

(44:16):
get a no?
Like what's next?
And the kid's not thinkingabout this stuff.
They're just like, oh, I'llgrab it, maybe that's how I can
get what I want.
Or I'll go tell on someone.
So then you learn anothermethodology of how to deal with
a no.
And it's like sometimes I seeadults or kids use joy Like I'll

(44:39):
be funny, I didn't want it,anyway, it's okay, I actually
don't really like you that much,like there's a bunch of things
that are coping mechanisms.
But the idea is, as adults,kids don't have all this wisdom.
We can use that to get curious.
Wow, you just rejected me.
Wow, I'm feeling like you neverwant to talk to me again.

(44:59):
Are we going to be friendsafter you've rejected me?
So this is making sense in myhead, but I really want to
qualify that.
Play means lots of stuff cancome up, want to qualify.
That play means lots of stuffcan come up, but the common
denominator is we can stayconnected and see what's next.
Versus like there's a winnerand there's a loser, and the

(45:22):
possibility of entering andhaving win-win situations can be
gotten to more.
With play, same with fear.
It's like, let's say, fear isthe no.
And I remember the first time Idealt with fear as a human being
, adult, by myself.
I had an out loud, existentialconversation.
I was jealous and I had afriend who was like liking the

(45:46):
same guy that I liked.
This wasn't that long ago and Isaw him walk in and see her and
he walked over to her and I waslike, oh, look, look at long
ago.
And I saw him walk in and seeher and he walked over to her
and I was like, oh, look, lookat this moment.
And I felt, and instead ofbeing and I felt my heart race,
I lost my breath and I was like,okay, I got a little frozen,
but I right away turned thatinto what's happening for me

(46:09):
right now.
I gave fear space and I waslike, oh, I feel cold in my
chest and it is spreading to myshoulders, and I felt my
sphincter tighten and I feltlike I was in fifth grade when I
had shaved my eyebrows.
I felt ugly.
I felt like everybody knew thatI was rejected.

(46:30):
Maybe it was three seconds.
All of this happened and so Iwas using play.
I was like, wow, I feel like afrozen icicle, I feel like cold
and I felt mean and right away Iwas like man my friend's, not
even that beautiful, like this.
I got nasty right away and itwas like in a playful way that I

(46:55):
dealt with myself.
I don't even know if any ofthat was true and I felt
rejected and I went over to themand I'm like you guys, I'm
feeling very left out over there, like nobody wants to kiss me
at the prom, and it was a greatmoment and I really gave it to
myself because those stories offear will I keep thinking of,

(47:16):
like like a jellyfish creaturewith lots of golden strings that
just grow and grow, and allthese stories and all these
visions, and it's like that'screative, even the jellyfish
idea.
So the other day somebody askedme in a mark group what do I
like about being Jewish?
And I said I like how we turnour suffering into entertainment

(47:38):
and I really feel like that'sthe case here, because every
suffering that I give to myselfI've used it for stand up comedy
, I've used it for something andto me that's the play.
So I know I went on a longerwins an answer.
But the idea of giving it spacemeans to take into
consideration.
This isn't a death.

(48:00):
I'm not dying.
Not everybody knows.
This is not like running in thenewspaper and everybody got it
except me at me, because that'swhat's threatened, at least for
me, is being left out,ostracized, not belonging, being
the fool, like that's what feartends to create.

(48:20):
For me is just like we actuallynever thought you were smart
all along, shane.
You're just kind of dumb, butwe, I don't know, we just let
you hang around, but now theworld thinks you're a loser,
like at the end of it.
That's like what?
What is the most uncomfortablefor me?
So I, my coping mechanism, isgetting everybody to like me and
it feels really good, and I cansee that about myself and um,

(48:46):
the only way it doesn't work iswhen I overextend myself, which
that's been my work is.
Where do I spend energy anddoes it feel good?
Or am I doing that old copingof reaching to get people to
like me.

Brenda (49:01):
Thank you.
I love how you just brought inthe third commandment again.
Like you bring in curiosity sooften, it's so genius.
And even going up to thatcouple at the event and saying
what you said, not only did yougive it space, but you really
made it playful.
Talking about the prom, youbrought a lightness to it, yet

(49:23):
it was something that you werereally feeling like.
You felt the moment ofrejection, and it's a great
example of how to give somethingspace at any given moment, even
at an event or a party, andthen play with it.
I feel like everyone canbreathe more when we're just
honest and we give these thingsspace, because I think they
happen for us all the time we'rehuman.

Shane Kulman (49:45):
Yes, and I love what you brought up.
That space doesn't mean quiet.
I really want to drive thathome, because people go home and
they isolate and they give itspace, but actually they're just
sitting in poop like they'resitting and stewing and really
having that capability of usingplay which is number two and

(50:05):
three, which is curiosity is thebest muscle to keep keep
working, because guess what, ifyou don't, it slips out Like if
I didn't say that thing to thatthose two people I would have
started to like maybe make planswith my friend where that guy
doesn't hang out.
I would have started to do somesomething that was just like

(50:28):
creating a connection ofinauthentic connection which
feels bad.

Brenda (50:35):
It does feel bad.
I call those sideways behaviorslike where you do something
false, like sideways, to justlike get around the thing, and
you're talking about we're goingright in, baby, we're just
going to say the fear, and yousaid it in a way that was really
respectful to yourself, likeyou didn't have to completely
come out and show all of yourguts.

Shane Kulman (50:57):
Yes, I think that was staring.
Yes, like I've always beenrejected.
In the third grade I wasrejected and you guys made me
feel that way.
It's like too much, too much.
I know that person who's likeman, we're on a zoom, we don't
want to know your whole therapysession, you know like just
share the moment and keep itmoving and take your stuff, you

(51:19):
know, to whatever tools youprocess with, but in that moment
, help yourself be graceful,playful and move forward.

Brenda (51:27):
I think that's such a great piece of advice for people
.
It's helped me so much in mylife to just add more play in
the moment and it definitelytakes practice.
Like you're not going to justbe good at it immediately, I
mean maybe you will right.
But you know it might beawkward at first but it's worth
it, especially with your kids,with your family, with your

(51:48):
partner.
You can bring this play intoanything.
That's actually been.
One of the best things that Ilearned as a parent when my kids
were really young is how to beplayful when things get tight
and my kids were upset.
Can I just make a joke?
Or can I just lighten up overhere, open my heart and just be

(52:08):
playful about it?
Oops, the milk spilled on thefloor.
Look at it or whatever thething is, and all of a sudden
everyone can breathe.

Shane Kulman (52:19):
Making up songs like you just did, is so key,
like my check bank, my what isit?
My check account is overdrawn.
Dude Moments that are just likeyou know they're blips in your
life, but it's just like takesyou down and makes you feel like
all these things and it's justlike go sing about it.

(52:40):
I love that.

Brenda (52:43):
It's just coming back again to giving it space.
I have a question for you, forour listeners who are listening
to all of this, and I love howwe've only talked about a few of
the Ten Commandments there areten.
Can you share a practice thatmaybe you do or something that
you could leave our listenerswith, like a practice that they

(53:05):
could do easily at home to fucktheir fears?

Shane Kulman (53:12):
Yes, well, I mean, part of me wants to be creative
, which is another commandment.
I'm just going to stick withthe one we just did, which is
just like sing what's happeningright now.
Just sing it.
And this isn't because you wantto be a singer.
This is to entertain the littlechild in you that cannot speak

(53:35):
to or does not want to feel whatthey're feeling.
I really believe that's wherefear comes from, is it's?
It is some experience couldhave been a stranger on the
street, so don't go into blamingyour parents.
It's anyone who was morepowerful, taller, bigger that
shut you down, and it could havehappened on the bus on your way

(53:56):
to school.
It doesn't mean so in thatmoment, let's say you lock
yourself out.
Right, that's a moment.
Oh, we had that moment.
Like you lock yourself out, youforgot your keys, and the first
thing I think to myself is Ifucked up.
So wouldn't that be?
So?
I fucked up and being mad atmyself is going to go down one
road but another one is like,look how I messed up.

(54:19):
I forgot my keys.
What an idiot Like.
If you just bring a little bitof levity to it in the moment,
something about it, somethingabout it gets lighter, maybe a
bird shows up.
Maybe you're like, how did I dothis again?
Maybe now you have content.
Maybe you were like, oh,today's the day I got to make

(54:40):
that extra key and hide it in mygarden so it adds more juice to
problem solving skills.
Like, if you want to feel bad,feel bad, but sing about it.
And I have clients that feelbad and are like me, pretty
extreme highs and lows.
So if you just sing about it,you know I'm a fucking idiot.

(55:00):
Do da, do da.
It just something good's goingto happen.
I don't know how else to say itand I have a million different
examples, but that one is justfun and you know what.
You don't even have to be agreat lyricist.
Just sing what the meanestthing you're thinking and see
what happens.

Brenda (55:18):
That's such a fun practice.
Again, you're coming back togiving space playing, being
curious.
It just feels fun when you singthat song.
I'm laughing over herelistening to it.
So, if you're listening and youtry this practice by Shane, we
would love to hear about it.

Shane Kulman (55:40):
We are the world with all of our.
I'm a fucking idiot.

Brenda (55:45):
I love that.
Okay, I'm going to switch gearsa little bit as we begin to
wind down.
I think I'm leaving here withway more questions than I came
with, and here's my question foryou, shane what is a desire
that you have for yourself?

Shane Kulman (56:06):
I own a theater slash gallery space in Rockaway
where people come to embodyeverything I've just talked
about, and it's also an eventspace.
So it's rented out and I have amanager running it and so I get
to do all the stuff I love.
But they make sure that it'spaid for because people and it's

(56:27):
a theater gallery space in abuilding I own, so there's no
pressure for rent paying or.
But it's just a place thatchanges with the mood, as I do
in terms of decoration and theme.
That's my desire and it reallyis the way that I help and heal
the world is not with my smartlogical head, which my gifted

(56:47):
and talented self wants tobelieve.
It's about getting on a stageand playing with visibility, and
no one even has to be in theroom.
It could be a person withvisibility with themselves, with
a mirror, and as a specialeducator, I really value going
with the slowest participantspeed and giving people as much

(57:09):
modifications as they need.
Like you want to do it awayfrom the mirror, you want to do
it sitting on the floor in abowl?
Let's just meet where you're at, and that's what my teachers
did for me and that's my big big.
Why is I learned unconditionallove from these two people and
I'm not easy, you know like Ijust thought everybody.

(57:29):
You know I'm not easy.
I've been triggered and run tothe bathroom, I've gotten
triggered and tried to hitsomeone.
I've thrown gum at them.
I'm like what is going like?
Triggered in the true sense,and they still loved me, they
still believed in me and I waslike this is some out of this
world stuff.
So I want to own a space likethat and it's a black box.

(57:51):
There's no, you know, it can bewhatever it wants to be.
It could be a place to come andscream.
It could be a place to do yourone woman show.
Stevie Nicks might show up andperform Like.

Brenda (58:02):
It's the space that everyone talks about, but it's
super underground and it justmagnetizes everybody in oh yes,

(58:26):
well, so shall it be this desire, and so much bigger, and say
she's saying just thank you.

Catherine (58:33):
Thank you for everything that you so
generously gave us today and ourlisteners, and I'm deeply
grateful to have had you on.

Brenda (58:43):
Thank you.
Yeah, thank you so much, Shane.
This was absolutely incredible.

Shane Kulman (58:51):
Any last thoughts that you want to say before we
wrap up?
Oh so when I just asked myselfin a short space, I thought the
sentence give yourself a chance,yeah, yeah, don't shut yourself
down Like something I teachclients and I use myself is who
cares Like who cares?
You look like a fool.
Who cares Like who cares youlook like a fool who cares Like.

(59:20):
If you think about all theseweird characters that on TV,
like Captain Kangaroo and Iwouldn't say you know the word
weird ties back to witches butlike Mr Rogers or Snuffleupagus
or Fairytale Theater, you knowit's like these are people's
creations that we get to imagineand watch.
And give yourself a chance Likeyou don't.
You don't have to do it fulltime, but when you have a quirky
thought or a secret, littledesire that pops up, give it a

(59:45):
chance to breathe and before yousmack it away, before you have
that fear whiplash smack it away.

Brenda (59:54):
Before you have that fear whiplash, let it have some
space.
What a beautiful lesson that Iwill be leaving here with today.
Give yourself a chance sobeautiful.
If you want to contact Shaneand find out all of the many
offers and invitations and letme tell you, they are juicy and
if you want to find out the restof the 10 commandments of

(01:00:15):
fucking your fears, you canfollow her on social media.
We're going to drop her socialmedia handles in the show notes
and you can follow her there.
It is quite a ride to followShane.
It's really a true joy and it'sbeen an absolute joy to have
you here today.
Thank you so much for yourgenerosity and your play, and I

(01:00:44):
know our listeners will benefitfrom the space that we gave
today to fuck your fears, baby.

Shane Kulman (01:00:52):
Thank you both so much for bringing out my concise
brilliance.
I always think it's not easy,but here it is very easy and
very clear and it feels so goodin my body.
So thank you both.

Catherine (01:01:06):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast Desire invites us to behonest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.