February 12, 2025 • 38 mins
For our Valentine's Day episode, we explore and demonstrate how to navigate sticky conversations. Often, when disagree or maybe even judge each other, we tend to disconnect. But there's another way. We can hold space for each other and lean in regardless of our differences, connection is still a possibility.
On this episode of the Desire as Medicine podcast, we (Brenda and Catherine) invite you to be open to connection regardless of your differences. Navigating conversations when there are differences isn't easy but it is possible.
Our candid conversation celebrates the richness found in our own personal differences. Whether it's political, cultural, racial, socioeconomic or other, connection is more often than not still available. We challenge the notion of judgment and instead focus on holding space for one another with compassion as we navigate connection regardless of our differences.
This episode dives into the complexities of connection, emphasizing the importance of holding space for each other’s vulnerabilities and differences. We discuss the power of emotional presence, and how to cultivate deeper intimacy in relationships.
Highlights of this Episode:
• Discussing the essence of desire and connection beyond romance
• Exploring cultural differences and their impact on relationships
• Holding space as an essential practice for emotional intimacy
• The importance of vulnerability and crying in conversations
• Letting go of stories to embrace true feelings
• Understanding the balance between giving and receiving love
• Encouraging open discussions about difficult topics
• The role of emotional presence in fostering connections
We would love to know how this episode touched you. Happy Valentine's Day. May your connections be honest, deep and nourishing.
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back family and friends, If we're able to drop this
(01:32):
week.
This week holds Valentine's Day, and Valentine's Day, according
to Wikipedia, is like StValentine's Day or the Feast of
St Valentine.
It's celebrated annually on the14th.
Originated as a Christian feastday honoring the unmartyred
(01:54):
Valentine, it has also become asignificant like cultural,
religious and commercialcelebration of romance and love
in many world religions.
Now, as with most things in ourlife, it can be talked about
(02:14):
from many different angles.
Right, and today, as always, Iam joined by the lovely Brenda,
my co-host, and we really wantedto bring something special for
Valentine's.
Ultimately, whenever we thinkabout desire, what what do you
really want, In addition tointimacy, which is created when
(02:37):
there's a lot of truth in theroom, and connection, which is
usually created when two humansor more are being honest and can
collaborate with one anotherand bring in even more truth and
more intimacy in theconversation?
There's so much that connectionthat can be had and on this
Valentine's Day, on this weekwhere we can honor just romantic
(03:02):
relationship or relationship ingeneral.
I'd love to honor my co-host,Brenda, and I am going to say
that she is an absolutelybeautiful human who I've been
able to ride, just been able toride with, with so much joy in
(03:23):
my heart, and I could talk aboutso many different like perfect
dots of our connection.
But today I'm going to talkabout our differences.
Another friend of mine broughtto my attention our differences
and how we don't actually talkabout it in our intro.
(03:44):
So I am, for some people, whitepassing, for others maybe not
so much very visibly and audiblyLatin, and it's very clear for
some and maybe not for others.
And Brenda is a white Jewishwoman, and yet we connect on a
(04:07):
weekly basis to talk about onething that's politics, Sometimes
(04:27):
it's Jewish and Palestinianrelations, Sometimes it's just
things that are happening aroundthe world, and I have to tell
you that it's scary for me to gointo these conversations with
her and this might be happeningfor you guys as well, whether
it's in connection with yourpartners or connection with
(04:48):
others.
And my favorite phrase is isthere anything that you need
when Brenda is going throughsomething right?
Because there are things thatare happening around the world
and we don't have to get intothe nitty gritty of the circus.
That's one of the takeawaysthat I would love for every
listener to walk away with today, and so I'm bringing this forth
(05:14):
.
I'm going to be introducingBrenda soon by asking her a
question.
But what's most important inthose moments is just for me to
sit here heart open.
What's most important in thosemoments is just for me to sit
here, heart open, or even ifit's in person, and realize that
(05:35):
whatever is occurring for heris real and my opinion of it
doesn't matter.
I'm going to say that againWhatever is happening for her is
very real and my opinion of itdoesn't matter.
It doesn't have to be smart whatshe's going through.
It doesn't have to be stupid.
It doesn't have to be wellthought out.
It doesn't have to be notthought out.
(05:56):
When we're connecting and we'rewanting intimacy, the truth is
that my only job is to holdspace.
I'm sure sometimes I do itbadly.
Sometimes, hopefully, I do itvery well.
And with that, my lovely Brenda, how does it feel for you
(06:17):
whenever we're talking aboutsomething that's really sticky
but we're not going to talkabout the actual logistics or
the pieces and parts.
Maybe I'm not so well versedRight and also I'm not having
the same lived experience as youand as I started this podcast
today, we are different, ofdifferent cultural backgrounds,
(06:38):
different socioeconomicbackgrounds, different yeah we
were.
Well, I guess we're both fromNew York, we have some
geographical closeness, but howdoes that feel for you, for
someone to just be there andlisten?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Thank you, catherine.
Wow, I just want to say myheart is beating so fast right
now.
I'm just going to drop intothis space and just say I feel
(07:15):
so much love right now and mybody's like shaking and my heart
is beating so fast.
And I'm saying that to bepresent and also to demonstrate
that you can say that at anygiven time, you can create space
for yourself.
So I'm grateful for knowingthat.
How does it feel to be goingthrough something that feels not
(07:42):
personal because it's happeningin the world, but also deeply
personal, and then inside ofthat, it's like me and then my
ancestors.
It's like so multifaceted.
Yet here I am, brenda, in thisseat, experiencing something
that feels really scary and thusreally vulnerable.
(08:03):
Scary and thus reallyvulnerable.
And I've been taught to hidethat.
So I've been taught to not talkabout it.
I've been taught to push itdown and just put on a happy
face, not overtly, no one toldme that, but this is what I
learned through my embodiedexperience.
I don't have any anger or orhurt at that, or judgment for
(08:28):
learning that, because Iunderstand that that's survival,
like that's how we survive.
So how does it feel when youhold space for me, when you hold
(08:52):
space.
For me, it feels likeeverything.
Earlier on this call, when wegot on, catherine broached this
topic of what our mutual friendsshared.
Like, oh, we don't actuallytalk about our ethnicity or our
differences.
We talk about some differences,but not really the a lot of
them.
Like we don't, we just don'ttalk about it.
(09:13):
We haven't gone there.
We certainly don't talk aboutpolitics on this podcast, and I
was having some feelings aboutsomething that I'm moving
through, things that are goingon in the world being a Jewish
woman.
It's been scary and it'sbrought up a lot of things for
me, a lot of feelings and a lotof beautiful pieces as well.
(09:39):
So when Catherine looked at meand you Catherine, talking in
the third person and directly toyou, you just said to me what
do you need?
Is there anything you need?
And that just bubbled up all ofmy feelings.
My lower lip just startedquivering, my lower lip.
(10:05):
That reminds me of mygrandfather's lower lip, like I
literally have his lips, and itfeels relevant to say that in
this moment, because so much ofthe pain that we do experience
in our culture or our religionis ancestral, it's ours and it's
ancestral.
So I could feel that in my bodyas I received your question,
(10:32):
and then the tears can flow, andthat's probably one of the most
beautiful gifts that I thinkanyone could give anybody, and
Catherine does it exquisitelywell.
Is there anything you need?
And then just holding space forthat.
(10:53):
I don't feel any amount oftrying to fix or change.
She doesn't go on my ride,folks Like.
She doesn't get all involved inthe drama.
There's not even any drama.
I shouldn't say drama.
There's no drama over here.
(11:14):
She doesn't get involved in thestory or even the details of
what I might be talking about.
Ever it.
It's a gift that Catherine hasand I think it's a really high
quality gift that so many peopleaspire to, and what a great
(11:35):
thing to talk about onValentine's day.
So I'll just pause therebecause I think that I answered
your question.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
You did answer it and I will happily take the fire
off you, off the hot seat.
Yes, I know that question wasdeep and thank you so much for
being so honest and sovulnerable and just willing to
share with our listeners howthat felt for you, how it feels
for you when we're touchingtouchy subjects.
And yeah, and I just ask you,is there anything that you need
(12:03):
and I want my listeners to know,or our listeners to know?
I cry on the podcast all thetime, so it's not just like a
crying while being recorded.
It's sort of like when in yourlife are you in a circle under
(12:23):
certain circumstances whetherit's at work or maybe with a
work colleague, or maybe with afamily member that you're not
that close to, and you'rebroaching a subject where it
really touches your heart andwhere it's painful for you and
you feel like the other personjust may not get it.
And one of the questions whenwe want to cry, people are like
(12:46):
but what's wrong?
Right, as if when things areright, we don't want to cry.
Because I cry even when thingsare going well.
There I am, crying, full of joy, there I am, and it's a big
deal just because for many yearsI couldn't really cry.
It wasn't a thing before 30,but it's so vulnerable to just
(13:06):
let yourself be seen in ourculture just dripping tears in
your cry spot when there are somany opinions about the cry spot
, and this is we're going to bedropping this Valentine's Day
week and I want to encourageeveryone that if you are Brenda,
(13:28):
let you know what it's likewhen she's just receiving that
hey, she's in the receiver endof somebody holding space for
her and how beautiful it feelsfor her.
But we can also, when we're inthe crying seat right, just say
nothing's wrong, but I amhurting, like how big is that?
(13:48):
Like nothing is wrong.
As in, maybe you recognize thatwhat you're crying about can
really only be felt by you.
We don't really need the otherperson to know why it hurts, why
we have a boo-boo, like thatpart doesn't matter.
The part that's really healingis for us to be able to be seen
by another person and held, andthat there's connection there
(14:11):
between the two of us, because Ican already hear some of you
listening going oh yeah, this isreally easy for Brenda and
Catherine because they have thisrelationship, or it's really
easy because Catherine has allthis experience and she could
just ask Brenda the story andBrenda could just drop it and
cry Ha ha ha.
No, not like that.
I also want to share that.
(14:32):
There are plenty of times whereI'm somewhere crying and I let
the other person, the personthat's witnessing, know nothing
is wrong.
I am just crying, I just need aminute, or I would love a hug,
or can you hold my hand, or canyour shoulder just touch mine,
(14:58):
or can you just breathe with me.
Sometimes my needs varydepending on the circumstance,
and I'm able to also ask for it.
Brenda and I have the luxury andthe privilege of having not
just deep relationships witheach other, but with many other
(15:22):
women.
We've wanted to, but with manyother women we've wanted to
intentionally build that, and wehave it.
We may not have spokenspecifically about it on this
podcast I'm unclear right now.
I know that she and I talkabout it pretty regularly
because it's one of thegratitudes we have, for sure,
(15:44):
but this is how it's createdLike.
These are the steps.
We don't just rah-rah each other.
We're not just there to witnesseach other's wins and support
each other when things are goinggreat, because that part's not
that hard it's.
How can you be there forsomeone when things are shit,
(16:08):
how can or how can you havecompassion for yourself when
things are shit and still be inconnection with another human
without making anybody wrong,without needing things to be any
different than what they are?
Because I think that's kind oflike where we can get tripped up
when we start bringing in ouropinions Once your opinion comes
(16:32):
in the room.
Now it's a differentconversation.
What comes up for you, brenda?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I posted something in my stories yesterday that is
the meat of this, like thebottom of it.
There's so many bottoms, but,it said, all connection begins
with how you hold yourself.
I saw that and I was like, wow,that's so true, because
(16:59):
everything that we're talkingabout here like we've both done
a considerable amount of workourselves to be able to
understand and embody thesethings that you're talking about
, so that when we come to thetable, we can meet in this
beautiful space and we practiceit.
(17:19):
So I think it requires acertain mastery of self, which
is something that Catherine andI both work on individually, and
we work with other people, wehold clients through this
process.
I really think it begins thereand with that, my goodness, one
(17:43):
of the biggest pieces that hasme be able to meet you in the
space.
Catherine is letting go ofstory, and I work on this with
my clients all the time.
My clients all the time.
We're so addicted to story.
Our minds and the people aroundus generally tell us that
something is wrong.
(18:03):
What is it?
What is it?
What is it?
And I think we're just souncomfortable with just plain
feelings, and I've practicedthis so much over the last
decade.
It's taken a while to likerelease the drama, release the
story and can you be with justthe sensation and just the
feeling.
And sometimes there is storythat needs to be talked about or
(18:26):
shared, where there might bedetails or pieces involved in
the emotion, but sometimes not.
There's times where I've justbeen through a big experience,
like we've talked about recentlyin some recent episodes about
expansion and contraction, wheremy body's just going through
(18:46):
something and it brings upemotion.
Maybe it's bringing up oldemotion, old hurts.
Something wants to be released,it wants to be felt, and I
think our go-to is to make astory about it, add a story like
our mind wants to attach to aproblem, and there doesn't
always have to be one, it couldjust be pure emotion.
(19:07):
And I think that's what I wasfeeling at the beginning, right
before we recorded, which iswhat led to this conversation.
It's that and there's also deepembodiment in my cells of past
stories and past experiencesthat we all have.
We all have this.
If you are human listening tothis, then you have people who
(19:29):
have come before you, you haveancestors who have experienced
hurt in whatever your culture is, whatever your religion,
whatever your background is, andyou now have it and hold it.
So we have this beautifulopportunity to release it.
But I don't want to go too deepinto that.
What I want to say is whatyou're talking about, catherine,
is it requires a taking up ofspace that's really
(19:55):
uncomfortable for women a takingup of space that's really
uncomfortable for women.
It's really uncomfortable.
It's so much easier to just say, oh, nothing's wrong, and then
go over there in the other roomand just deal with it yourself,
or not even just take it out onpeople you love and bury it, or
go shopping or drink or eat orwhatever you do.
(20:17):
It's like uncomfortable to takeup space in that way, because
we've been taught to not do thatas women.
And so to be able to receivethe question and the love that
you're offering me, would yousay to me is there anything you
need?
Like, wow, the depths that havegone into for me to be able to
(20:43):
receive that and receive it aslove is pretty huge, and so I
want to offer that to everyone.
And when Catherine and I weretalking about potentially
recording for Valentine's Day,I've been really sitting with
the last few days.
I didn't even share this withCatherine, but one of the things
that I thought about recordingon was receiving, because we
(21:07):
give and receive love all thetime and I think we're so much
more comfortable giving, giving,giving.
But it's so vulnerable toreceive and have the attention
on you and I think we've justbeen taught and conditioned to
not have it.
But I will say it feels kind ofgood because I think that we
also really want the attention.
(21:28):
We like, same time, don't wantit and want it.
So when you were like, oh, I'mgoing to take Brenda off the hot
seat, I was like why I reallylike it here?
Because I think that as women,we hide and we cloak how much
attention we really want.
But we really do need to expandour innards, expand our ability
(21:51):
and our capacity to receive,like to receive your question
and really be in it.
What comes up for you,catherine.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Thanks so much for that.
So many things.
I love the reminder of howtempting it is to say to
somebody nothing's wrong,everything's fine.
The desire to not want to gointo it and if I did want to go
into it.
Or when not want to go into it,and if I did want to go into it
.
Or when people want to go intoit, they really want to go into
the story of it.
(22:23):
Not necessarily our first stepisn't usually oh, I'm going to
be with the sensation and thefeeling and be witness here.
Yes, how do I succinctly tellthis story in such a way that
this person knows exactly whatI'm feeling?
How do I become QuentinTarantino in this millisecond,
(22:48):
chandra Rimes, and just deliverit perfectly so that you know
exactly how I feel?
So that you know exactly how Ifeel, because that would be
easier than pausing and feelingall of the sensations in my body
and just describing what thatfeels like, describing that, oh,
(23:13):
my heart hurts, my body aches,I feel tears welling up, my skin
feels cold to the touch, myheart is pounding, my heart
feels like it's breaking into athousand pieces.
That part is so tough to relayas a society we are so used to
(23:35):
hearing tough to relay.
As a society we are so used tohearing whenever we muster the
courage to say a version of thatand then usually are met with
but what's wrong or how do wefix this?
It's almost easier to just saynothing's wrong and I'm fine.
But this is a great exercise inreceiving, like you said,
(24:02):
whether it's you saying I justwant to share how I'm feeling, I
just want to share thesensations in my body and
sharing what that is, nothing'swrong, I don't want to fix it, I
just want to witness this sothat we can be witnessed and we
can receive someone else'sattention as a practice ground.
(24:25):
I think I started today withsaying can we just hold space?
And now we're at the point ofthe conversation where I can say
can I just be held, can I justallow this person to hold space
(24:50):
for me?
When someone says what's wrong,can I say I wouldn't say
something is wrong, but I amhaving big feelings and this is
what I'm feeling, and just gointo the sensation.
And if the person says, well, Ireally want to understand, I
(25:13):
get to say I'm actually notready to talk about the story
yet.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I get to say I'm actually not ready to talk
about's the beauty that I'veexperienced.
It's almost like magic If youjust feel it, if you just let
the feelings come and just giveyourself the space to cry or
share the feelings or share thefears.
Whatever it does move.
(26:04):
The irony is that when we addthe story or the problem to it
and the details, it kind ofmakes it worse.
It's kind of like feeding thefire because we get more and
more agitated and upset.
You know, catherine and I haveboth had this experience in
(26:27):
working with people.
You can feel when somebody isgoing through an emotional
release and you could feel whenthey're kind of getting to the
other side of it and then youboom.
You could feel when they addedstory because it starts all over
again and there's nothing wrongwith that.
You could do that.
(26:47):
I'm not passing judgment, butI'm just saying that you could
feel it and we do it toourselves all the time.
Could feel it and we do it toourselves all the time.
This takes a long time topractice and master and any
story can be a lot of fun.
So, yeah, so I just wanted toadd that piece and also
(27:11):
releasing like really receivingyour question.
Is there anything you need?
Oh, right there, I have to letgo of control.
I have to let go of any agendaor plan that I had of what we're
going to talk about or how it'sgoing to go or how I'm going to
feel.
Because now I'm just if I'mfully open and in a receptive
(27:32):
mode.
You're kind of like in yourinvoluntary, where you just like
, ah, feelings are coming and mylips are quivering and my eyes
are tearing and it's vulnerableand it's actually really
beautiful.
And those pieces that comethrough that we usually say we
(27:53):
don't want to share, like thosepieces that we exile, that we
say, oh yeah, this thing, thisthought, this feeling, I'm going
to exile you, I don't want toface you Really, it just wants
to be integrated into yoursystem.
And so when you actually justgive it space the very thing
that you don't want to folksthere's a wholeness that comes.
(28:15):
There's a wholeness that comesbecause wholeness comes from
accepting all the parts ofourselves.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
And so it's quite a beautiful ironic process, so
true and so good.
Like I just want to circle backto what you said, like giving
it space, like giving that partof you airtime so that you can
feel what you're feeling, bewitness in what you're feeling,
that part of you that you feellike, ah, it's not so pretty,
it's not put together.
I don't really like it.
(28:50):
I don't want it to be seen.
That part of us, the part wherewe're vulnerable, maybe we're
not crying, maybe we're justlike I feel really exposed in
this conversation.
Oh, we're broaching a topicthat makes me want to run.
Right, sometimes that happens inrelationship.
Or you're speaking to agirlfriend and you're like, oh,
(29:10):
wow, we're talking aboutsomething now.
I don't really know how tosupport you here.
We're talking about somethingnow.
I don't really know how tosupport you here.
I don't really know how to bewith you here.
This is a really touchy or hardtopic, right, being able to
admit where we are in real timein conversation is so
uncomfortable, because it has ushave to show that we're not air
(29:32):
quotes.
Perfect, right, we're givingthat part of a space, we're
almost shining a light on it,and that's the very thing that
will help the relationshipdeepen, which is ultimately what
we're talking about this week,in which we can do our best to
(30:02):
show up for ourselves and otherswhile relating to each other,
to increase the intimacy andvalue of the connection while
relating with this person.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Going into the hard topics is so good and that's how
you really opened.
This was talking about thesethings that we don't even
actually talk about, but they'realways in the room.
These hard topics are always inthe room and we often want to
skate over them and not talkabout them, and you know you
(30:42):
don't always want to be talkingabout this everywhere you go,
like at the supermarket.
You're not going to necessarilybring up these things, so you
get to pick and choose and Idefinitely pick and choose it
here with Catherine and on thispodcast.
But I will say the hard topics,those things that are a little,
(31:03):
have a rub.
That's where the juice is,that's where the real juice and
connection is, and we aretalking about love and deep
connections on Valentine's Dayand we want this every day.
Valentine's Day is justhighlights it.
It comes from yourself.
It comes from what are youwilling to reveal about yourself
(31:25):
, what are you willing to share.
Are you willing to go into thejuicier or harder topics,
however you want to call it, andreally share what's alive for
you?
And sharing my feelings thismorning before we recorded today
and I will include Catherine'swillingness to be there with me
(31:47):
on these topics that are reallyhard.
You know, I was talking aboutbeing a Jewish woman and having
some feelings about that.
Today, that could potentiallybe a sticky subject, and it
doesn't have to be.
It does not have to be, and Ithink this is some medicine that
we need in the world right now.
(32:08):
We need to be willing to broachthese topics and just be with
each other.
You don't need to add youropinion.
You don't need to be right.
You don't need to add youropinion.
You don't need to be right.
You don't need to give people aperspective of why they're
wrong or more information.
You don't need to look it up onWikipedia.
(32:29):
We just need to listen to eachother and hear each other.
That is what I've learned in thelast 18 months in this
political climate.
I have stretched myself insideand out to understand some of
the things that have gone on inthis world.
(32:49):
People that have completelydifferent opinions than me,
people who live completelydifferently, maybe against my
own values, and even then I'mlike what is going on with these
people?
What can I just open my heartand get really curious, and it's
(33:13):
been hard.
That has worked me behind thescenes so much and I don't need
to change it or find them wrong,but to understand each other,
like to really understand eachother, or at least try to,
because we're all coming fromsomewhere, we all have some
cause or some thing that we'repassionate about that pushes us
(33:39):
or causes us to do the thingsthat we do.
And who's to say my way isright?
My way is right over here?
But I've just been reallycurious what's going on in the
world with people, and I've beenpracticing this on a global
scale and it's really worked me.
And here we are doing it here aswell.
(34:00):
You could just start withyourself, start with your
friends, start with your partnerand just listen, just listen.
You don't even have tounderstand what the other
person's talking about.
To sit in front of a human withtheir heart open and just
listen and feel them, even ifyou wholeheartedly disagree, can
(34:25):
you see the human in front ofyou and just feel them?
That's connection.
We don't have to agree, butthat is connection but that is
connection A thousand percent.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I love that you brought in the whole aspect of
what happens when we don'tunderstand each other.
When this person is telling yousomething, whether it's they're
arguing for something and itdoesn't make any sense to you,
or they have a particular painpoint, you have no idea why
they're in pain.
And our default is well, I wantto understand it so I could be
(35:03):
with this person in this pocket,in this conversation pocket.
So we have to be with oneanother, so that, or we believe
that we have to be with someoneand not just be with them in
(35:23):
conversation, but understand,fully understand, what they're
going through in order to beable to be with them.
And I love that you brought upwhat happens when you don't
understand each other, becausethe truth of the matter is that
we don't actually have tounderstand each other.
We do not have to understandeach other.
(35:44):
Listeners, I'm going to say thisreally again and again and
again we do not have tounderstand each other to just be
with one another.
I don't have to understandsomebody's rage, their anger,
their perspective, the way theyview the world, whether it's
political or religious, or youknow.
(36:06):
I don't have to be on theirside on their marital argument,
or on their side with theiruniversity problem, or whatever
it is that is on the table, orwhatever it is that is on the
table.
If the person has strongfeelings about it, the only
(36:29):
thing I need to do as a friend,holding space, as a listener, is
to hear what they're goingthrough, to be with them with
what they're going with whatthey are going through, to feel
them in their feelings.
That's it.
That's what's going to help mebe in more intimate relationship
with them.
The understanding piece would behelpful, but unless I'm their
(36:53):
therapist or their holder insome way, that part actually
does not matter.
It's the least important part,because I don't have to fix
anything, I don't have to changeanything.
My only job is to hold spaceand to be in space with them.
(37:16):
Hold space and to be in spacewith them.
With that, I want to really,really invite everyone listening
to deeper courage, to be inintimate relationship, to allow
someone to either hold space foryou or for you to be willing to
(37:39):
hold space for another.
That understanding one anotherisn't the first step when the
sticky conversations come up.
The first step is can I just bewith what's true?
Thank you so much, everyone.
If something resonated for you,please let us know.
(38:00):
We'd love to hear from you.
If you feel so inspired toleave a review, please do that
as well.
We can't wait to meet with youagain.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back family and friends, If we're able to drop this
(01:32):
week.
This week holds Valentine's Day, and Valentine's Day, according
to Wikipedia, is like StValentine's Day or the Feast of
St Valentine.
It's celebrated annually on the14th.
Originated as a Christian feastday honoring the unmartyred
(01:54):
Valentine, it has also become asignificant like cultural,
religious and commercialcelebration of romance and love
in many world religions.
Now, as with most things in ourlife, it can be talked about
(02:14):
from many different angles.
Right, and today, as always, Iam joined by the lovely Brenda,
my co-host, and we really wantedto bring something special for
Valentine's.
Ultimately, whenever we thinkabout desire, what what do you
really want, In addition tointimacy, which is created when
(02:37):
there's a lot of truth in theroom, and connection, which is
usually created when two humansor more are being honest and can
collaborate with one anotherand bring in even more truth and
more intimacy in theconversation?
There's so much that connectionthat can be had and on this
Valentine's Day, on this weekwhere we can honor just romantic
(03:02):
relationship or relationship ingeneral.
I'd love to honor my co-host,Brenda, and I am going to say
that she is an absolutelybeautiful human who I've been
able to ride, just been able toride with, with so much joy in
(03:23):
my heart, and I could talk aboutso many different like perfect
dots of our connection.
But today I'm going to talkabout our differences.
Another friend of mine broughtto my attention our differences
and how we don't actually talkabout it in our intro.
(03:44):
So I am, for some people, whitepassing, for others maybe not
so much very visibly and audiblyLatin, and it's very clear for
some and maybe not for others.
And Brenda is a white Jewishwoman, and yet we connect on a
(04:07):
weekly basis to talk about onething that's politics, Sometimes
(04:27):
it's Jewish and Palestinianrelations, Sometimes it's just
things that are happening aroundthe world, and I have to tell
you that it's scary for me to gointo these conversations with
her and this might be happeningfor you guys as well, whether
it's in connection with yourpartners or connection with
(04:48):
others.
And my favorite phrase is isthere anything that you need
when Brenda is going throughsomething right?
Because there are things thatare happening around the world
and we don't have to get intothe nitty gritty of the circus.
That's one of the takeawaysthat I would love for every
listener to walk away with today, and so I'm bringing this forth
(05:14):
.
I'm going to be introducingBrenda soon by asking her a
question.
But what's most important inthose moments is just for me to
sit here heart open.
What's most important in thosemoments is just for me to sit
here, heart open, or even ifit's in person, and realize that
(05:35):
whatever is occurring for heris real and my opinion of it
doesn't matter.
I'm going to say that againWhatever is happening for her is
very real and my opinion of itdoesn't matter.
It doesn't have to be smart whatshe's going through.
It doesn't have to be stupid.
It doesn't have to be wellthought out.
It doesn't have to be notthought out.
(05:56):
When we're connecting and we'rewanting intimacy, the truth is
that my only job is to holdspace.
I'm sure sometimes I do itbadly.
Sometimes, hopefully, I do itvery well.
And with that, my lovely Brenda, how does it feel for you
(06:17):
whenever we're talking aboutsomething that's really sticky
but we're not going to talkabout the actual logistics or
the pieces and parts.
Maybe I'm not so well versedRight and also I'm not having
the same lived experience as youand as I started this podcast
today, we are different, ofdifferent cultural backgrounds,
(06:38):
different socioeconomicbackgrounds, different yeah we
were.
Well, I guess we're both fromNew York, we have some
geographical closeness, but howdoes that feel for you, for
someone to just be there andlisten?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Thank you, catherine.
Wow, I just want to say myheart is beating so fast right
now.
I'm just going to drop intothis space and just say I feel
(07:15):
so much love right now and mybody's like shaking and my heart
is beating so fast.
And I'm saying that to bepresent and also to demonstrate
that you can say that at anygiven time, you can create space
for yourself.
So I'm grateful for knowingthat.
How does it feel to be goingthrough something that feels not
(07:42):
personal because it's happeningin the world, but also deeply
personal, and then inside ofthat, it's like me and then my
ancestors.
It's like so multifaceted.
Yet here I am, brenda, in thisseat, experiencing something
that feels really scary and thusreally vulnerable.
(08:03):
Scary and thus reallyvulnerable.
And I've been taught to hidethat.
So I've been taught to not talkabout it.
I've been taught to push itdown and just put on a happy
face, not overtly, no one toldme that, but this is what I
learned through my embodiedexperience.
I don't have any anger or orhurt at that, or judgment for
(08:28):
learning that, because Iunderstand that that's survival,
like that's how we survive.
So how does it feel when youhold space for me, when you hold
(08:52):
space.
For me, it feels likeeverything.
Earlier on this call, when wegot on, catherine broached this
topic of what our mutual friendsshared.
Like, oh, we don't actuallytalk about our ethnicity or our
differences.
We talk about some differences,but not really the a lot of
them.
Like we don't, we just don'ttalk about it.
(09:13):
We haven't gone there.
We certainly don't talk aboutpolitics on this podcast, and I
was having some feelings aboutsomething that I'm moving
through, things that are goingon in the world being a Jewish
woman.
It's been scary and it'sbrought up a lot of things for
me, a lot of feelings and a lotof beautiful pieces as well.
(09:39):
So when Catherine looked at meand you Catherine, talking in
the third person and directly toyou, you just said to me what
do you need?
Is there anything you need?
And that just bubbled up all ofmy feelings.
My lower lip just startedquivering, my lower lip.
(10:05):
That reminds me of mygrandfather's lower lip, like I
literally have his lips, and itfeels relevant to say that in
this moment, because so much ofthe pain that we do experience
in our culture or our religionis ancestral, it's ours and it's
ancestral.
So I could feel that in my bodyas I received your question,
(10:32):
and then the tears can flow, andthat's probably one of the most
beautiful gifts that I thinkanyone could give anybody, and
Catherine does it exquisitelywell.
Is there anything you need?
And then just holding space forthat.
(10:53):
I don't feel any amount oftrying to fix or change.
She doesn't go on my ride,folks Like.
She doesn't get all involved inthe drama.
There's not even any drama.
I shouldn't say drama.
There's no drama over here.
(11:14):
She doesn't get involved in thestory or even the details of
what I might be talking about.
Ever it.
It's a gift that Catherine hasand I think it's a really high
quality gift that so many peopleaspire to, and what a great
(11:35):
thing to talk about onValentine's day.
So I'll just pause therebecause I think that I answered
your question.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
You did answer it and I will happily take the fire
off you, off the hot seat.
Yes, I know that question wasdeep and thank you so much for
being so honest and sovulnerable and just willing to
share with our listeners howthat felt for you, how it feels
for you when we're touchingtouchy subjects.
And yeah, and I just ask you,is there anything that you need
(12:03):
and I want my listeners to know,or our listeners to know?
I cry on the podcast all thetime, so it's not just like a
crying while being recorded.
It's sort of like when in yourlife are you in a circle under
(12:23):
certain circumstances whetherit's at work or maybe with a
work colleague, or maybe with afamily member that you're not
that close to, and you'rebroaching a subject where it
really touches your heart andwhere it's painful for you and
you feel like the other personjust may not get it.
And one of the questions whenwe want to cry, people are like
(12:46):
but what's wrong?
Right, as if when things areright, we don't want to cry.
Because I cry even when thingsare going well.
There I am, crying, full of joy, there I am, and it's a big
deal just because for many yearsI couldn't really cry.
It wasn't a thing before 30,but it's so vulnerable to just
(13:06):
let yourself be seen in ourculture just dripping tears in
your cry spot when there are somany opinions about the cry spot
, and this is we're going to bedropping this Valentine's Day
week and I want to encourageeveryone that if you are Brenda,
(13:28):
let you know what it's likewhen she's just receiving that
hey, she's in the receiver endof somebody holding space for
her and how beautiful it feelsfor her.
But we can also, when we're inthe crying seat right, just say
nothing's wrong, but I amhurting, like how big is that?
(13:48):
Like nothing is wrong.
As in, maybe you recognize thatwhat you're crying about can
really only be felt by you.
We don't really need the otherperson to know why it hurts, why
we have a boo-boo, like thatpart doesn't matter.
The part that's really healingis for us to be able to be seen
by another person and held, andthat there's connection there
(14:11):
between the two of us, because Ican already hear some of you
listening going oh yeah, this isreally easy for Brenda and
Catherine because they have thisrelationship, or it's really
easy because Catherine has allthis experience and she could
just ask Brenda the story andBrenda could just drop it and
cry Ha ha ha.
No, not like that.
I also want to share that.
(14:32):
There are plenty of times whereI'm somewhere crying and I let
the other person, the personthat's witnessing, know nothing
is wrong.
I am just crying, I just need aminute, or I would love a hug,
or can you hold my hand, or canyour shoulder just touch mine,
(14:58):
or can you just breathe with me.
Sometimes my needs varydepending on the circumstance,
and I'm able to also ask for it.
Brenda and I have the luxury andthe privilege of having not
just deep relationships witheach other, but with many other
(15:22):
women.
We've wanted to, but with manyother women we've wanted to
intentionally build that, and wehave it.
We may not have spokenspecifically about it on this
podcast I'm unclear right now.
I know that she and I talkabout it pretty regularly
because it's one of thegratitudes we have, for sure,
(15:44):
but this is how it's createdLike.
These are the steps.
We don't just rah-rah each other.
We're not just there to witnesseach other's wins and support
each other when things are goinggreat, because that part's not
that hard it's.
How can you be there forsomeone when things are shit,
(16:08):
how can or how can you havecompassion for yourself when
things are shit and still be inconnection with another human
without making anybody wrong,without needing things to be any
different than what they are?
Because I think that's kind oflike where we can get tripped up
when we start bringing in ouropinions Once your opinion comes
(16:32):
in the room.
Now it's a differentconversation.
What comes up for you, brenda?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I posted something in my stories yesterday that is
the meat of this, like thebottom of it.
There's so many bottoms, but,it said, all connection begins
with how you hold yourself.
I saw that and I was like, wow,that's so true, because
(16:59):
everything that we're talkingabout here like we've both done
a considerable amount of workourselves to be able to
understand and embody thesethings that you're talking about
, so that when we come to thetable, we can meet in this
beautiful space and we practiceit.
(17:19):
So I think it requires acertain mastery of self, which
is something that Catherine andI both work on individually, and
we work with other people, wehold clients through this
process.
I really think it begins thereand with that, my goodness, one
(17:43):
of the biggest pieces that hasme be able to meet you in the
space.
Catherine is letting go ofstory, and I work on this with
my clients all the time.
My clients all the time.
We're so addicted to story.
Our minds and the people aroundus generally tell us that
something is wrong.
(18:03):
What is it?
What is it?
What is it?
And I think we're just souncomfortable with just plain
feelings, and I've practicedthis so much over the last
decade.
It's taken a while to likerelease the drama, release the
story and can you be with justthe sensation and just the
feeling.
And sometimes there is storythat needs to be talked about or
(18:26):
shared, where there might bedetails or pieces involved in
the emotion, but sometimes not.
There's times where I've justbeen through a big experience,
like we've talked about recentlyin some recent episodes about
expansion and contraction, wheremy body's just going through
(18:46):
something and it brings upemotion.
Maybe it's bringing up oldemotion, old hurts.
Something wants to be released,it wants to be felt, and I
think our go-to is to make astory about it, add a story like
our mind wants to attach to aproblem, and there doesn't
always have to be one, it couldjust be pure emotion.
(19:07):
And I think that's what I wasfeeling at the beginning, right
before we recorded, which iswhat led to this conversation.
It's that and there's also deepembodiment in my cells of past
stories and past experiencesthat we all have.
We all have this.
If you are human listening tothis, then you have people who
(19:29):
have come before you, you haveancestors who have experienced
hurt in whatever your culture is, whatever your religion,
whatever your background is, andyou now have it and hold it.
So we have this beautifulopportunity to release it.
But I don't want to go too deepinto that.
What I want to say is whatyou're talking about, catherine,
is it requires a taking up ofspace that's really
(19:55):
uncomfortable for women a takingup of space that's really
uncomfortable for women.
It's really uncomfortable.
It's so much easier to just say, oh, nothing's wrong, and then
go over there in the other roomand just deal with it yourself,
or not even just take it out onpeople you love and bury it, or
go shopping or drink or eat orwhatever you do.
(20:17):
It's like uncomfortable to takeup space in that way, because
we've been taught to not do thatas women.
And so to be able to receivethe question and the love that
you're offering me, would yousay to me is there anything you
need?
Like, wow, the depths that havegone into for me to be able to
(20:43):
receive that and receive it aslove is pretty huge, and so I
want to offer that to everyone.
And when Catherine and I weretalking about potentially
recording for Valentine's Day,I've been really sitting with
the last few days.
I didn't even share this withCatherine, but one of the things
that I thought about recordingon was receiving, because we
(21:07):
give and receive love all thetime and I think we're so much
more comfortable giving, giving,giving.
But it's so vulnerable toreceive and have the attention
on you and I think we've justbeen taught and conditioned to
not have it.
But I will say it feels kind ofgood because I think that we
also really want the attention.
(21:28):
We like, same time, don't wantit and want it.
So when you were like, oh, I'mgoing to take Brenda off the hot
seat, I was like why I reallylike it here?
Because I think that as women,we hide and we cloak how much
attention we really want.
But we really do need to expandour innards, expand our ability
(21:51):
and our capacity to receive,like to receive your question
and really be in it.
What comes up for you,catherine.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Thanks so much for that.
So many things.
I love the reminder of howtempting it is to say to
somebody nothing's wrong,everything's fine.
The desire to not want to gointo it and if I did want to go
into it.
Or when not want to go into it,and if I did want to go into it
.
Or when people want to go intoit, they really want to go into
the story of it.
(22:23):
Not necessarily our first stepisn't usually oh, I'm going to
be with the sensation and thefeeling and be witness here.
Yes, how do I succinctly tellthis story in such a way that
this person knows exactly whatI'm feeling?
How do I become QuentinTarantino in this millisecond,
(22:48):
chandra Rimes, and just deliverit perfectly so that you know
exactly how I feel?
So that you know exactly how Ifeel, because that would be
easier than pausing and feelingall of the sensations in my body
and just describing what thatfeels like, describing that, oh,
(23:13):
my heart hurts, my body aches,I feel tears welling up, my skin
feels cold to the touch, myheart is pounding, my heart
feels like it's breaking into athousand pieces.
That part is so tough to relayas a society we are so used to
(23:35):
hearing tough to relay.
As a society we are so used tohearing whenever we muster the
courage to say a version of thatand then usually are met with
but what's wrong or how do wefix this?
It's almost easier to just saynothing's wrong and I'm fine.
But this is a great exercise inreceiving, like you said,
(24:02):
whether it's you saying I justwant to share how I'm feeling, I
just want to share thesensations in my body and
sharing what that is, nothing'swrong, I don't want to fix it, I
just want to witness this sothat we can be witnessed and we
can receive someone else'sattention as a practice ground.
(24:25):
I think I started today withsaying can we just hold space?
And now we're at the point ofthe conversation where I can say
can I just be held, can I justallow this person to hold space
(24:50):
for me?
When someone says what's wrong,can I say I wouldn't say
something is wrong, but I amhaving big feelings and this is
what I'm feeling, and just gointo the sensation.
And if the person says, well, Ireally want to understand, I
(25:13):
get to say I'm actually notready to talk about the story
yet.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I get to say I'm actually not ready to talk
about's the beauty that I'veexperienced.
It's almost like magic If youjust feel it, if you just let
the feelings come and just giveyourself the space to cry or
share the feelings or share thefears.
Whatever it does move.
(26:04):
The irony is that when we addthe story or the problem to it
and the details, it kind ofmakes it worse.
It's kind of like feeding thefire because we get more and
more agitated and upset.
You know, catherine and I haveboth had this experience in
(26:27):
working with people.
You can feel when somebody isgoing through an emotional
release and you could feel whenthey're kind of getting to the
other side of it and then youboom.
You could feel when they addedstory because it starts all over
again and there's nothing wrongwith that.
You could do that.
(26:47):
I'm not passing judgment, butI'm just saying that you could
feel it and we do it toourselves all the time.
Could feel it and we do it toourselves all the time.
This takes a long time topractice and master and any
story can be a lot of fun.
So, yeah, so I just wanted toadd that piece and also
(27:11):
releasing like really receivingyour question.
Is there anything you need?
Oh, right there, I have to letgo of control.
I have to let go of any agendaor plan that I had of what we're
going to talk about or how it'sgoing to go or how I'm going to
feel.
Because now I'm just if I'mfully open and in a receptive
(27:32):
mode.
You're kind of like in yourinvoluntary, where you just like
, ah, feelings are coming and mylips are quivering and my eyes
are tearing and it's vulnerableand it's actually really
beautiful.
And those pieces that comethrough that we usually say we
(27:53):
don't want to share, like thosepieces that we exile, that we
say, oh yeah, this thing, thisthought, this feeling, I'm going
to exile you, I don't want toface you Really, it just wants
to be integrated into yoursystem.
And so when you actually justgive it space the very thing
that you don't want to folksthere's a wholeness that comes.
(28:15):
There's a wholeness that comesbecause wholeness comes from
accepting all the parts ofourselves.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
And so it's quite a beautiful ironic process, so
true and so good.
Like I just want to circle backto what you said, like giving
it space, like giving that partof you airtime so that you can
feel what you're feeling, bewitness in what you're feeling,
that part of you that you feellike, ah, it's not so pretty,
it's not put together.
I don't really like it.
(28:50):
I don't want it to be seen.
That part of us, the part wherewe're vulnerable, maybe we're
not crying, maybe we're justlike I feel really exposed in
this conversation.
Oh, we're broaching a topicthat makes me want to run.
Right, sometimes that happens inrelationship.
Or you're speaking to agirlfriend and you're like, oh,
(29:10):
wow, we're talking aboutsomething now.
I don't really know how tosupport you here.
We're talking about somethingnow.
I don't really know how tosupport you here.
I don't really know how to bewith you here.
This is a really touchy or hardtopic, right, being able to
admit where we are in real timein conversation is so
uncomfortable, because it has ushave to show that we're not air
(29:32):
quotes.
Perfect, right, we're givingthat part of a space, we're
almost shining a light on it,and that's the very thing that
will help the relationshipdeepen, which is ultimately what
we're talking about this week,in which we can do our best to
(30:02):
show up for ourselves and otherswhile relating to each other,
to increase the intimacy andvalue of the connection while
relating with this person.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Going into the hard topics is so good and that's how
you really opened.
This was talking about thesethings that we don't even
actually talk about, but they'realways in the room.
These hard topics are always inthe room and we often want to
skate over them and not talkabout them, and you know you
(30:42):
don't always want to be talkingabout this everywhere you go,
like at the supermarket.
You're not going to necessarilybring up these things, so you
get to pick and choose and Idefinitely pick and choose it
here with Catherine and on thispodcast.
But I will say the hard topics,those things that are a little,
(31:03):
have a rub.
That's where the juice is,that's where the real juice and
connection is, and we aretalking about love and deep
connections on Valentine's Dayand we want this every day.
Valentine's Day is justhighlights it.
It comes from yourself.
It comes from what are youwilling to reveal about yourself
(31:25):
, what are you willing to share.
Are you willing to go into thejuicier or harder topics,
however you want to call it, andreally share what's alive for
you?
And sharing my feelings thismorning before we recorded today
and I will include Catherine'swillingness to be there with me
(31:47):
on these topics that are reallyhard.
You know, I was talking aboutbeing a Jewish woman and having
some feelings about that.
Today, that could potentiallybe a sticky subject, and it
doesn't have to be.
It does not have to be, and Ithink this is some medicine that
we need in the world right now.
(32:08):
We need to be willing to broachthese topics and just be with
each other.
You don't need to add youropinion.
You don't need to be right.
You don't need to add youropinion.
You don't need to be right.
You don't need to give people aperspective of why they're
wrong or more information.
You don't need to look it up onWikipedia.
(32:29):
We just need to listen to eachother and hear each other.
That is what I've learned in thelast 18 months in this
political climate.
I have stretched myself insideand out to understand some of
the things that have gone on inthis world.
(32:49):
People that have completelydifferent opinions than me,
people who live completelydifferently, maybe against my
own values, and even then I'mlike what is going on with these
people?
What can I just open my heartand get really curious, and it's
(33:13):
been hard.
That has worked me behind thescenes so much and I don't need
to change it or find them wrong,but to understand each other,
like to really understand eachother, or at least try to,
because we're all coming fromsomewhere, we all have some
cause or some thing that we'repassionate about that pushes us
(33:39):
or causes us to do the thingsthat we do.
And who's to say my way isright?
My way is right over here?
But I've just been reallycurious what's going on in the
world with people, and I've beenpracticing this on a global
scale and it's really worked me.
And here we are doing it here aswell.
(34:00):
You could just start withyourself, start with your
friends, start with your partnerand just listen, just listen.
You don't even have tounderstand what the other
person's talking about.
To sit in front of a human withtheir heart open and just
listen and feel them, even ifyou wholeheartedly disagree, can
(34:25):
you see the human in front ofyou and just feel them?
That's connection.
We don't have to agree, butthat is connection but that is
connection A thousand percent.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I love that you brought in the whole aspect of
what happens when we don'tunderstand each other.
When this person is telling yousomething, whether it's they're
arguing for something and itdoesn't make any sense to you,
or they have a particular painpoint, you have no idea why
they're in pain.
And our default is well, I wantto understand it so I could be
(35:03):
with this person in this pocket,in this conversation pocket.
So we have to be with oneanother, so that, or we believe
that we have to be with someoneand not just be with them in
(35:23):
conversation, but understand,fully understand, what they're
going through in order to beable to be with them.
And I love that you brought upwhat happens when you don't
understand each other, becausethe truth of the matter is that
we don't actually have tounderstand each other.
We do not have to understandeach other.
(35:44):
Listeners, I'm going to say thisreally again and again and
again we do not have tounderstand each other to just be
with one another.
I don't have to understandsomebody's rage, their anger,
their perspective, the way theyview the world, whether it's
political or religious, or youknow.
(36:06):
I don't have to be on theirside on their marital argument,
or on their side with theiruniversity problem, or whatever
it is that is on the table, orwhatever it is that is on the
table.
If the person has strongfeelings about it, the only
(36:29):
thing I need to do as a friend,holding space, as a listener, is
to hear what they're goingthrough, to be with them with
what they're going with whatthey are going through, to feel
them in their feelings.
That's it.
That's what's going to help mebe in more intimate relationship
with them.
The understanding piece would behelpful, but unless I'm their
(36:53):
therapist or their holder insome way, that part actually
does not matter.
It's the least important part,because I don't have to fix
anything, I don't have to changeanything.
My only job is to hold spaceand to be in space with them.
(37:16):
Hold space and to be in spacewith them.
With that, I want to really,really invite everyone listening
to deeper courage, to be inintimate relationship, to allow
someone to either hold space foryou or for you to be willing to
(37:39):
hold space for another.
That understanding one anotherisn't the first step when the
sticky conversations come up.
The first step is can I just bewith what's true?
Thank you so much, everyone.
If something resonated for you,please let us know.
(38:00):
We'd love to hear from you.
If you feel so inspired toleave a review, please do that
as well.
We can't wait to meet with youagain.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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