March 12, 2025 • 44 mins
Have you ever struggled with allowing yourself to feel your feelings? Are you someone who gets very involved in the "story"? Where the facts get blurred because the story is so loud. Are you willing to feel the fullness of your emotions? And perhaps let others see you in your tears and snot?
Emotions are the core of our human experience, yet many of us struggle with openly feeling and expressing them. This unique episode dives into vulnerability, raw feelings, and authentic connections. Desiring deeper interactions means embracing our true emotions.
We dive deep into intimacy, vulnerability, and the transformative power of simply feeling your emotions—while looking closely at the narrative and societal expectations around it.
Join hosts Brenda and Catherine as they explore the power of crying together, sharing personal experiences that illustrate how embracing raw emotions can elevate our connections.
Our conversation revolves around the concept that simply letting our feelings wash over us, rather than becoming entangled in the stories we often tell ourselves, can facilitate profound transformations in both our emotional wellbeing and our relationships.
Episode Highlights:
• Exploration of societal conditioning around emotions
• Powerful discussion on the process of crying together
• Stories of vulnerability leading to deeper connections
• The tension between narrative and raw feeling
• Insight into navigating emotions without storytelling
• Closing reflections emphasizing authenticity in relationships
Thank you for joining us on this journey today. We want to hear how our conversations resonate with you! Share your insights with us on Instagram at Desire as Medicine Podcast.
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Inviting you into our world.
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life,motherhood relationships and my
business Desire has taken me onquite a ride and every day I
practice listening to andfollowing the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
(00:35):
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
So right now, for context, I'mjust crying We've hit some
(01:52):
tumescence around recording andI muted to blow my nose.
The intro today is more of mewanting to show what this looks
like in real time.
I think I'm going to talk todayas a practitioner, even though
Brenda and I always talk aboutlike we're always beginners on
the mat, and the truth of thematter is that, yes, we are
(02:14):
beginners and also we know a lot.
We've been practicing for along time.
Today I was talking to a clientand around this same thread,
that the more practice you havein monitoring your own mind, in
(02:35):
coaching yourself, it's lessclimactic, it's less story in
the mind, but we only haveaccess to 5% of our brain, like,
really, or maybe a little more,but I know it's not more than
10% by any means.
Some days I feel really dumb.
I don't know about Brenda, butwe've been having this to mess
(02:59):
around recording since last weekand, like the last time we met
and today I don't need to getinto the nitty gritty of the
logistics as to why that hashappened.
But last week she had a momentwhere she just said, you know,
maybe it wasn't meant for us torecord, and she cried and right
now, as we had paused, and Isaid, okay, we're not going to
(03:24):
record right now, maybe we'lljust handle logistics.
I was handling logistics andthen I had this overwhelming
sense of just release and cry.
I'm preparing to travel andI've been wanting to get so much
done and I've had, actually,brenda and I have both had some
health issues come up.
Brenda is free and clear.
I still have some more testingto do and, in addition to
(03:53):
working a lot and I think mylife has just felt really
compressed and I just needed arelease.
But I thought it was soimportant because, as I cried
and I saw Brenda just well, Iexperienced that I'm seeing her
because, well, we record onRiverside so I get to see her
gorgeous face, so she justwatches me and witnesses me.
But she's holding space for meright now and I thought, oh, she
(04:13):
can just be there because we'reat a level of practice where it
passes so quickly but we canforget that it took some work to
get here.
So I'm going to be in my feelsand I'm going to pass it over to
Brenda and I'm going to ask you, brenda, like do you remember
how hard it would be prior to toget to this spot where you
(04:36):
could just cry in front ofsomeone else and like just trust
that it was going to pass andnot have to go into the whole
story behind something, just tobe able to feel?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It's such a beautiful , advanced pose to be able to
just cry in front of somebodyelse and not have a whole story
about it, and I think you justdemonstrated that really well.
Just for context, folks, wewere talking and Catherine said,
actually just hit record, andso I did, and then she burst
(05:11):
into tears and I'm like allright, this is what we're doing.
We're going to actually showthis part, which is really cool.
I think it takes a lot ofpractice to know and to get used
to like, oh, I could just cryin front of somebody and not
really go into a whole story.
(05:32):
I think it's uncomfortable formost of us to cry in front of
other people and we have a lotof conditioning in our culture
like don't cry, here's a tissueculture, like don't cry, here's
a tissue.
Even in places I've been inwhere we're saying it's okay to
cry, I've still seen people sayit's okay to cry, but here's a
(05:53):
tissue, which is really quite amixed message.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I always need a tissue.
I hate feeling stuff I love inthose spaces.
When they had me a tissue, Idon't look at it like not
permission to cry.
For me it's like permission tobreathe, to be able to cry and
breathe because, like I'll crybelow my nose, cry below my nose
, that sort of thing.
(06:16):
I you're an advancedpractitioner, catherine, I think
in a lot of spaces.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
When somebody hands someone a tissue, there is an
unsaid message of don't cry, orsometimes people receive it as
stop crying it.
That's not what the messagealways has to be, so I like to
just not do tissues.
If I'm in a space with womenand somebody's crying, I want to
(06:50):
hide the tissues.
I just want to be like cry andsnot and let it all out Like
full permission, full outpermission to just let it all
out.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I love that I would not be able to do it.
My physical body, I wouldprobably go into a like a
nervous system response if Icouldn't breathe for whatever
reason, whether it's like Idon't know, traumatic asthmatic
experience as a child orsomething like that.
I think there's just some formof body response like I want to
(07:23):
be able, like I want to be ableto breathe, I want to be able to
, like I'd be afraid of passingout, dying.
You know the Capricorn.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Wait, you want to breathe, she wants to breathe.
Folks, I love a woman who knowswhat she wants, and this woman
wants to breathe.
You know there's so many pointsin this.
First of all, you justdemonstrated that we really are
(07:51):
all different.
Giving someone a tissue doesnot always mean stop crying.
Somebody can certainly take itthat way, but I think when we're
starting with new clients way,but I think with when we're when
we're starting with new clients, it is nice to say the
permission oh, don't worry, youdon't need a tissue.
It's kind of like you can justcry and snot.
(08:12):
Anyway, are we really talkingabout snot and tissues?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
We are, and I I think that it's true, brenda, that
there is a societal attachmentto the tissue right, or
conditioning attachment to thetissue here.
You don't, you know, it's notthat bad, you're going to be
okay.
This too shall pass, this sortof like diminishing the
(08:38):
importance of the cry and thefeel, and I think that that
conditioning, unspokenly andsaid transfers into emotions are
scary and shouldn't be felt,and I think that's what you're
pointing to like no, feeleverything.
Right, there's so muchpermission and to feel
(08:58):
everything, I'm not going to say, feeling shitty feels good
because it doesn't.
I'm not going to say feelingshitty feels good because it
doesn't, you feel shitty, itfeels shitty, feels bad.
And then it feels good on theother side because it's like a
life lived, a life experienced.
We're not clamping andcontrolling anywhere.
(09:19):
And what I'm hoping to talkabout right now in this segment
or today in the cry share, islike even though this is an
advanced pose, there are certainsteps that get us here right.
So for me, if I'm crying in theearly days and you handed me a
(09:40):
tissue, it was equivalent togiving me a teddy bear or a soft
blanket.
It was like what do you need?
Like, what support do you needin order for you to be fully
expressed here?
And I think that's the thinglike how can I best support you?
Right?
And for Brenda, I think thebest support is like hey, it's
not whatever like be completelyhuman bodily fluids, whatever
(10:08):
like be completely human bodilyfluids, whatever like no shame,
no guilt, just be and just beseen and felt here.
And for me it's like what doyou need, you know, and I would
say you know, other than atissue?
Usually when I'm falling apartlike that, like I want a hug,
and the hug usually like justhas me, me, oh my God, just even
thinking about it just has memelt, you know, and it's almost
(10:33):
the sensation, my physical body,if I were to paint it, it's as
if somebody is holding up myspine, and in that moment I
don't have to hold myself up, Iget to just melt in someone
else's nervous system and feelcared for and feel held and
loved, right, and we don'talways get to have that Like I
don't have that in this moment.
Brenda isn't physically here,she's actually all the way
(10:55):
across the US right now she's inCalifornia, and yet she was
still able, with her presence,to hold me.
And so, thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
It's really my pleasure.
These are my favorite kind ofmoments in life.
I was going to say podcastepisodes, but when you said hit
record, I was like, all right,here we go and I was thinking
about how much I love just doingthings on the fly and being
unconventional in that way, andthis is something that really
works for us.
Catherine will be like just hitrecord and she'll start talking
and then I'll pick up fromthere.
(11:35):
We work really well that wayand it's taken a long time to
build that up.
We could not have done that inthe beginning.
But I want to say a few thingshere in the beginning.
But I want to say a few thingshere.
One is when we started thisrecording, catherine was in
(12:01):
tears.
She hit mute to blow her nose.
I may edit that out so thatspace might not be in there, but
I want to say that about sevenor eight minutes into this
recording she was alreadylaughing.
Because, folks, when you giveyourself permission to be with
what is true in the moment andyou let yourself have it, you
(12:24):
let yourself be seen, you letyourself be held, you let
yourself be loved, it shifts, itjust shifts, and we talk about
that a lot on this podcast andit's funny that we're talking
about this right now, becauseI've been thinking about that.
(12:45):
One of the things we talk abouta lot on this podcast is story
we talk about.
You don't have to go into story, you could just feel, and I
don't know that we've done anadequate job of really
explaining what that means.
And at the beginning of thisepisode, catherine, you
demonstrated that in real time.
(13:06):
So I want to bring everyone'sattention back to that, which
was when she was talking about,at the beginning, coaching
herself and her brain wants togo on this whole story.
She said we were doing somestuff in the background and that
she just felt this wave ofemotion come background, and
(13:28):
that she just felt this wave ofemotion come and she said to you
, I'm not going to go into allthe logistics of what I'm
feeling or what's happening inmy brain, I'm just going to feel
it right here and let you seeit.
That is exactly what we mean bynot going into story.
By not going into story, it's agreat example in real time of
(13:51):
just letting the emotion comeout and come through your body
and come out as tears, as snot,as farts, as burps, as shaking
whatever it comes out as and nothave to tell a whole story
about it.
Anything you want to add tothat?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Catherine, there's two things that come up for me.
I'm just going to put it in theback burner.
I want to go a little bit.
I want us to go into likeletting yourself have it.
I want to go in there a littlebit and I want to go there.
I want to go into that a littlemore in a bit.
I want to go there.
I want to go into that a littlemore in a bit.
But as far as not going to thestory, yes, for me story is like
(14:29):
an avalanche.
Not that long ago I don't knowif I've told everyone this yet
our public forum here I cameacross a journal that said how
can I have more peace right now?
And it was talking aboutanxiety.
And I was like, oh crap, I usedto have, I used to be anxious.
(14:49):
This must be a journal, I don'tknow.
2003, 2006, 2009, something inthat arena, and now we're in
2025.
And this version of me does noteven remember that.
But if I think back, I rememberI was living with a boyfriend,
(15:14):
you know, eons ago.
I've looked at people before,but I was waking up around nine,
maybe seven, in the morning andI remember my eyes would open
nine, maybe seven in the morningand I remember my eyes would
open and my brain would go and Iand go, go, go, go, go, go go.
And I was like holy shit, it'sintense in this head Like
(15:35):
there's a lot going on.
For the most part, I justwanted to control so many
factors.
I wanted so many things to goparticular way, control so many
factors.
I wanted so many things to go aparticular way.
And when I think back to thattime in hindsight I'm like, oh,
it was like an avalanche.
It's like being somewhere andthere's this tiny thought, right
(16:01):
, like a little bit of snow, andthen there's more snow, more
snow, more snow.
The next thing, you know,there's like a whole town being
wiped out because of anavalanche.
And that would be happening inmy mind.
It would be like one thought,another thought, another thought
, another thought.
If I were to go slower, it'ssort of like the thoughts are
going, going, going, likewindshield washers, windshield
(16:23):
wipers, and the attempt is orthe underlying underneath that
level, on the top level is oh, Ifeel uncomfortable.
Then my mind goes in windshieldwipers.
Just one thought.
Next thought, next thought.
In actuality, it's like I havea discomfort.
I have a thought that'screating a feeling and that
(16:46):
feeling is discomfort.
And now I don't want to feelthat discomfort because I'm so
damn afraid of that discomfort,because I don't want to be in
that discomfort, because thatdiscomfort is somehow close to
death.
It feels like I'm dying and Iwant to control all the little
pieces and people in my life.
(17:06):
So, and fast forward I mean wecan talk about the middle of
this, but fast forward to 2025,recording this podcast.
I think we're at the end of the70s, like in 80s, and I'm able
to be in the middle of logistics.
Things are going wrong.
We're having two messes, we'rehaving some issues while we
(17:28):
record and I can feel the waveof tears coming up.
And I can feel the wave oftears coming up.
The story is like in the back ofmy mind, because I recognize
that it's sort of likecompression, like I needed a
release of some kind.
I could somewhat feel it onSaturday Brenda had checked in
with me, like how are you doing?
I was like, oh, I'm in thevortex, which basically means I
(17:52):
can, like I'm a true generator,like a workhorse.
If I'm doing something, I'mjust going going, going, going.
I'm not going to really feeluntil I pause.
A previous version of me 20years ago I don't know if you
listeners can relate just keptgoing to not pause, to not feel
(18:13):
that discomfort.
Present day, I felt thatdiscomfort and I was like, oh
okay, I get to have it, I get tohave this release.
It's going to feel reallyshitty in the moment as I'm
feeling it, hence tears andclimax, but on the other side of
that, it's okay, butpredominantly because I'm not
(18:35):
feeding the avalanche, right?
I specifically said I don't wantto go into story, and that's on
purpose, because I know thatthen I'm just sort of like
tugging on the pain, or maybethat you could look at it like
(19:01):
on the pain, or maybe you couldlook at it like touching the
scab wherever the wound is andgoing into the story.
I could make up a story rightnow.
The story would sort of soundlike I have no time or, oh, my
goodness, why is this happeningto me?
Or something like that.
Why is this happening to me?
Or something like that.
Versus, oh, I have a lot on myplate, all by choice, because a
(19:27):
life well lived is full, and soit makes sense that sometimes
we're going to put a little bitmore on our plates and it's a
balancing act and it's a seesaw,and we adjust and we learn.
But the only way to adjust,learn and go through the
feedback loop is to be in itright.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Beautifully explained .
This is a great metaphor aboutan avalanche.
The avalanche coming down islike a story and not feeding it.
When you were giving theexamples of your story, I could
feel that part of me, that lovestory, that just wants to get in
there and be like oh, tell memore about the story, or let me
(20:05):
tell you about my story, andsometimes.
Well, two things I want to sayabout that.
One sometimes we just do thatand that's okay.
It is nice to notice it andmove past it in your life,
because then you could justactually be with the feeling.
And the other thing issometimes there are things that
do need to be said, Like you canfeel your raw emotion and you
(20:29):
can feel the actual sensation.
Because when we have feelings,we do have sensations in our
body and it's good to payattention to those because your
body is speaking to you thismorning.
I had a bad dream last night andit really affected my nervous
system and I could feel likethis tightening in my chest this
morning and it told me that Iwas a little bit unnerved from
(20:53):
that and I needed to payattention to that and give that
part of me some love.
Now do I want to go into thewhole story of it and telling
everyone the bad dream.
No, I don't, Because I get tochoose where I put my attention.
And while it is fun to go downthe drama path and we get a lot
(21:17):
of attention there, I thinkthat's how most women are still
relating in the drama and in thestory and I'm going to try and
say this without a lot ofjudgment, but it's a low level
way to relate in drama.
It's a low level way to relateand have friends and have
(21:42):
relationships is just talkingabout the story all the time.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I think that I love how you prefaced it and said you
want to go into non-judgment.
And I think this is the perfectexample, because there was a
little bit of judge right Oflike the low level relate, and
then Brenda's like probably hadmore thoughts and she's like
fuck, you know, or I mean,that's not I'm speaking for her,
but I, you can see it.
(22:09):
And one of the reasons and hereand one of the reasons why this
is like low level relate inreal time, it's because it's
really hard to form connectionor to really go deeper.
Right, it's like you have storyand then it's sort of like fast
food empty calories, there'snot much left.
So we can relate in the storyand then we can poke at each
(22:34):
other's wounds and then we canfeel shitty and then that's it.
There's nowhere else to go fromthere.
And Brenda just showed it likebeautifully in real time.
And then so there we are.
We're like, yeah, it'slow-level relating.
And then we're like, now what?
I don't really know where to gofrom there.
But if I'm going to see if Ican form a picture because you
(23:00):
did such a great job at talkingabout it, ronda in my head I'm
like, okay, we have the story,we have the non-story and what
we're talking about is how to bewith things without story,
right, and then you saidpermission for full story, which
I loved.
So we're looking at permissionfor full story.
It sort of looks like we have astory, we're processing it in
(23:20):
real time.
I do that a lot because I'm anaudibly, I like to alchemize
audibly.
So tell the story, I'mprocessing, I'm going through my
learnings and then there's somealchemy that happens.
The thing we haven't touched onyet is that if I am in my
(23:43):
feelings and telling the story,well, now I'm activated because
my nervous system is activatedand it's very difficult for me
to process, learn or alchemizebecause I'm in fight, flight,
freeze or fawn right, I'mactivated.
I can't see clearly versus.
If I'm a non-story and I feelthe activation, I feel the
(24:04):
feeling come through, I justfeel my feelings, then I'm
actually tending to my nervoussystem eruption versus going
into the story.
So I tend to my nervous system,which allows it's almost like
cold water on that activation,on that heat, it's sort of okay,
(24:28):
fires out, no emergency, allthe sirens and alarms have gone
off and they're quiet and now Ican go into potentially a story
if I still want to, then I couldtell my story process it, think
about whatever learnings havecome up, alchemize, and so I
(24:50):
think I don't know if there's aphrase for us, brenda, maybe we
can come up with something, butit's sort of like the low level
way to relate.
When we have friends and we justtalk about story while
activated, is that the onlything not much more than the
avalanche is really available.
Available, like we're onlyreally revving each other up
(25:13):
Either my life is shittier thanyours, my life is shittier than
yours, and we kind of go backand forth and compete, or, yes,
there's not.
It's very hard to go deep there, which means it's hard to get
nourishment, and sisterhood isso nourishing.
And so when you say low levelrelating, we're talking about
(25:36):
kind of like fast food, relatingwhere there's another way.
Right, we could have likegourmet relation where, okay, so
we're advanced practitioners.
So, yes, I could just cry, butlet's say it was years ago when
that wasn't available.
I didn't even have words.
The first place I started waslike can you just hold me?
(25:57):
And I was so bad at receivingsupport that one of my best
friends at the time used toactually hug me from behind
because I couldn't have her infront of me, because it would
make me like I would cry to thepoint that I couldn't really
handle it, like I would cry tothe point that I couldn't really
handle it, and so it was softerand gentler for me.
(26:18):
It's for her to have.
I'm just remember I don't knowif it was like a piano, at a
bench I can picture her rightnow hugging me from, like she's
standing.
I'm sitting.
Oh, my goodness, there's somany ways to try to meet
yourself where you are, to getin the ring, to attempt to have
and to create more sisterhood.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Wow, this is really quite a deep topic, because
being seen in your true feelings, in your real emotions, without
story, is quite intimate.
And I think we really block theintimacy that we say we want
(27:00):
hashtag and we block it.
I think we block it with story.
It's one way to block it withall the details and the story
and the hooking of the this andthe that and all these crazy
details, even if they're notcrazy details, I think it's a
distraction.
It's a distraction from juststanding there in presence, in
(27:22):
your feelings.
It's like being naked in a way,and just feeling and just being
.
It's intimate, it's intimate,it's powerful, it's really
powerful.
And I want to add another option.
Like we talked about theavalanche as being a low level
(27:44):
way to relate and I spent a lotof time there the new level of
sisterhood and we have to do awhole episode on sisterhood.
That's going to be anotherepisode, but is backing each
other's desires, backing eachother in who we truly are as
women, and taking each otherhigher and deeper than the fast
(28:09):
food that's just being offeredout in the world.
We've talked a lot about how doyou have that and how do you
surround yourself with that?
Well, it starts with being ityourself.
Being it yourself.
So maybe this inspires you insome way, listening to this.
The invitation is can you letyourself feel, can you let
(28:33):
yourself be seen in the truth ofyour emotion?
And a beautiful thing ispossible in there.
So many beautiful things arepossible there.
But if story is a distractionwith other people, it's also a
distraction with yourself.
(28:57):
It's also a distraction withyourself because when something
comes in and it takes you downto this emotional place where
you're having some kind ofrelease, there's usually some
truth that wants to be seen.
Maybe it's something simple likeyou need something or you need
to say something, or maybeyou're noticing a pattern oh, I
(29:20):
always do this thing.
You can't see it and you can'tbe available for those things.
If you're just going so fast instory and, catherine, you said
it before pausing, all of thisbecomes possible.
When we pause, when we slow theF down, these things become
possible and we're actuallybecoming more available for what
(29:44):
we say we want in our lives.
This is one way that you canactually have more of what you
want in your life therelationships, the sex, the
friendships, the money, thethings by just being present
with what is here right now andletting yourself be seen and
(30:07):
maybe letting yourself be seenstarts just with you in a mirror
, or you and yourself scenestarts just with you in a mirror
, or you and yourself Don't pickup your phone when you're
having feelings.
That's a kind of intimacy aswell, just being with yourself.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Totally so good.
Brenda, you just touched on somany beautiful things.
I love how you pointed back tothe story that avalanche.
It really does take us awayfrom ourselves because it
distracts us.
It keeps us in our mind, whichmeans that we're not in our
bodies because we're afraid tofeel whatever emotion is there
(30:44):
to feel, because it usually isnot like a yummy emotion, even
though emotions usually last 90seconds, a few minutes.
It's really not that long, butit might as well be a lifetime
or a death sentence.
In that moment it's like thelast thing, the last place we
want to go to.
When we're going that fast, itis a distraction and it's
(31:07):
designed on purpose.
The mind is trying to keep ussafe from that uncomfortable
feeling.
The mind is trying to keep ussafe from that uncomfortable
feeling.
The limit, the primal brain,it's keeping us on the
distraction train.
We're going so fast.
It's like our own special orientexpress and without slowing
(31:29):
down it's very difficult for usto see our possibilities, like
we can't.
And without slowing down wecan't feel our feelings.
Us to see our possibilities?
We can't.
And without slowing down wecan't feel our feelings.
We don't feel our feelings.
We're activated and we can'tsee.
While activated.
It's just not the way the brainis designed.
We're just looking for thetiger right.
(31:52):
We're activated and everywherewe look there's a tiger.
Everywhere we look, it'shorrendous.
Everywhere we look, there's noway out.
Everywhere we look, there's astop sign.
Everywhere we look, thingsaren't working because we're
activated.
That's what being activatedmeans.
No matter what I do, where Ilook, where I wanna go, it's
crappy Versus.
(32:13):
If I could just hunker down,tell myself I can do hard things
and either way is hard.
Being in the avalanche is hardbecause living in that spin is
so crazy.
Making it's like you're in thespin cycle of a washing machine
and feeling your feelings ishorrendous.
It's like you're in the spincycle of a washing machine and
(32:34):
feeling your feelings ishorrendous.
It's like you're at death'sdoor, just at the bottom heart
bleeding out.
You could write poems downthere.
I mean so many people do writepoems, songs, et cetera from
down there.
It's that heart wrenching.
Neither is a good choice butour spin cycle, washing machine,
(32:54):
avalanche brain.
There's no real relief on theother side of that.
We just get tighter and morecontrolling, creating more fear
for ourselves versus finding thecourage to feel the feelings,
feel the actual release thatcomes from that and, god willing
(33:18):
, be neutral enough to see someform of light and possibility.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah, I want to tell you what's worse than feeling
all those feelings, all thosefeelings, suffering and
resistance to me is worse thanfeeling all of those feelings.
And feeling those feelings canbe a lot, it really it really
can be.
(33:45):
But I've done both.
I've spent a lot of time inresistance and it's I've
suffered there, versus allowingyourself to go into the feeling,
and into it feels likesuffering, to end all suffering,
like you're going to movethrough it, where suffering, to
(34:07):
suffer in resistance feels verydisempowered and stuck.
And so to me, at this point inmy life, as much as I sometimes
don't want to feel all of thethings, I'm like, oh, if I just
open the door and go in, I willhave relief on the other side.
(34:32):
And to me, going back, that'sthe game that I'm playing in
this life is my desire to be whoI truly am in this world, and
that, to me, is being fullyexpressed.
That's been my journey and,yeah, just to say I do have
(34:52):
resistance to it sometimes.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Still, I was just going to piggyback that you
still have some hindsight, right, like you do have some 20-20.
You're able to say, oh, thisfeels crappy, I don't want to
feel my feelings.
Not feeling my feelings feelscrappy.
Okay, decision time.
Right.
You're saying, oh, what's worsethan not feeling my feelings,
being in the resistance of it?
And, yes, we want to be yourmasters and tell you that's the
(35:18):
way to go.
But no, without the experienceright, it's going to be really
hard.
Like one of our goals here isfor you to have also that 2020
vision right, for you to also beable to know oh, feeling my
feelings is a better route,because I can compare it to when
(35:39):
I wasn't feeling my feelings.
Right, I can see the freedomthat comes from feeling my
feelings.
Oh, my goodness, taking deepbreaths while not being in the
avalanche, while not beingactivated.
Being able to have that be oneof the lighthouses is a
(36:01):
beautiful thing?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yeah, it really is, and we're here giving you
permission.
So if you're listening to thispodcast episode and you're
someone who's like this thingkeeps happening, or I can't seem
to have this thing that I wantin my life, or why isn't my life
the way I want it to be, insome form of that we're giving
you, we're handing you a littletreat here saying here's one way
(36:34):
that you can try and work withyourself to have more of what
you want in your life.
And in this episode we'resuggesting to you the treat is
drop story and just be presentand feel your feelings with
yourself or with another person,and just see what happens with
another person and just see whathappens.
Just see what happens.
And given that, I want to bringit back into closing to
(36:56):
Catherine, as we're into thisepisode, I just want to check
back in with you full circleAnything that you want to say
about your process in the last38 minutes and what it felt like
to start out, not only feelingyour feelings but sharing them
here and and what that was likefor you and where you are now.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Thank you for the question.
It definitely stretches me totry to remember all the parts.
So I started out by cryingbecause I needed a release.
I felt a lot of pressure andcompression and then I shared
(37:41):
okay, I'm not going intologistics of all the things that
are not going right, I'm justgoing to feel, and then it feels
like a climax and then I havethe cry, and then there's sort
of this neutrality that comes inwhere it's almost like the
(38:01):
problem's not even not really aproblem anymore because it's.
It's as if the bond went, goesoff, and then the dust is sort
of settling.
I'm not really thinking aboutthat anymore.
I'm sort of at that point in mybody just feeling the
sensations while also beingwitnessed by you.
(38:24):
So currently my experience ofthis recording isn't oh, my
goodness, everybody's listening.
It's more oh, brenda'switnessing me and we're sharing
the witness with the world, orwhoever listens to the podcast.
You witnessed me.
(38:45):
You held me so beautifully, andby held I just mean she was
there on her side of the screen,grounded, while I cry,
sometimes eyes closed and tearsrunning down my face, and when I
open my eyes I can just see her, and that's very co-regulating.
(39:08):
So if we were in person,probably that would be happening
too.
And then we sort of just startedto talk about the process, of
what became more important wasless about the logistics and
less about what's going wrong.
And the climax it was like, ohwait, I'm having this experience
.
I'm really experiencing tons ofrelief.
(39:30):
I can feel the relief comingand I know it wasn't this fast
in the beginning.
I know it took time to get here.
Actually it took decades.
Hopefully for other people it'sfaster, but just my experience
of it it wasn't that fast.
Actually, when I started myjourney I didn't really have
(39:52):
access to emotions, so it waspretty difficult to tap into
something that wasn't on thesurface by any means.
And now that we sort of talkedabout the cry, the being
witnessed, the being willing tofeel the distractions that come
about, which is the mind theavalanche, feel the distractions
that come about, which is themind the avalanche.
(40:16):
We talked about low-levelrelating and how sometimes with
women we will either gossip ortalk bad about each other or
talk bad about ourselves to eachother.
Then it sort of pointed to thisbigger arc of what's actually
available when, of what'sactually available when.
That's not the form of relating, where we're just seeing each
(40:36):
other raw by raw I meanunfiltered, not trying to make
myself look different thanwhat's happening and how much
connection is available thereand intimacy, and it definitely
doesn't feel like processed foodor fast food.
It feels really intimate and itfeels really connecting and it
(40:59):
feels really nourishing.
And I would say this I knowthat you you mentioned earlier,
brenda, that you'd like to do arecording on sisterhood
mentioned earlier, brenda, thatyou'd like to do a recording on
sisterhood I'm like, oh yes, allof these pieces and parts sort
(41:23):
of contribute to that crescendoof sisterhood.
It's part of what makes ahigher level relating.
It's what makes connecting atthis level possible and
beautiful.
And I'm now going to circle backto something that Brenda said.
She said we just have to letourselves have it, and I know
that sometimes that phrase isn'tclear.
It's not like we're not lettingourselves have it.
(41:45):
So if I were to use thatsentence in the experience today
, letting myself have it meant Ilet myself cry and be seen
without story.
Let myself be held andwitnessed without story, let
(42:06):
myself feel without letting mymind go on the Orient Express
and create an avalanche of story, where I'm now distracted and
not feeling.
That's what letting yourselfhave it means.
Not letting myself have itwould look like I want to cry
and I say to Brenda I'm going tobe right back, and then that
(42:31):
would be full stop.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Thank you for that Full stop.
There's so much juice in theother one.
There's so much juice inletting yourself have it, and if
you're listening and you wantmore on that, episode 79 we just
dropped is all about receiving,but episode 79, we just dropped
is all about receiving.
Like.
In order for Catherine to havehad this experience, she had to
(42:57):
be open to receive, and me aswell.
I was open to receive Catherineand receive the moment.
We were both open to receiveand created this beautiful
episode that we did not plan.
This was 100% organic in themoment and that's one of my
(43:18):
favorite things to do.
So we would love to hear howthis episode landed for you.
What jewels and gems did youget?
Did you receive our treat?
Please let us know what yourtakeaways and insights are.
You can tag us on Instagram atDesire is Medicine Podcast.
We would absolutely love tohear from you.
(43:39):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Inviting you into our world.
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life,motherhood relationships and my
business Desire has taken me onquite a ride and every day I
practice listening to andfollowing the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
(00:35):
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
So right now, for context, I'mjust crying We've hit some
(01:52):
tumescence around recording andI muted to blow my nose.
The intro today is more of mewanting to show what this looks
like in real time.
I think I'm going to talk todayas a practitioner, even though
Brenda and I always talk aboutlike we're always beginners on
the mat, and the truth of thematter is that, yes, we are
(02:14):
beginners and also we know a lot.
We've been practicing for along time.
Today I was talking to a clientand around this same thread,
that the more practice you havein monitoring your own mind, in
(02:35):
coaching yourself, it's lessclimactic, it's less story in
the mind, but we only haveaccess to 5% of our brain, like,
really, or maybe a little more,but I know it's not more than
10% by any means.
Some days I feel really dumb.
I don't know about Brenda, butwe've been having this to mess
(02:59):
around recording since last weekand, like the last time we met
and today I don't need to getinto the nitty gritty of the
logistics as to why that hashappened.
But last week she had a momentwhere she just said, you know,
maybe it wasn't meant for us torecord, and she cried and right
now, as we had paused, and Isaid, okay, we're not going to
(03:24):
record right now, maybe we'lljust handle logistics.
I was handling logistics andthen I had this overwhelming
sense of just release and cry.
I'm preparing to travel andI've been wanting to get so much
done and I've had, actually,brenda and I have both had some
health issues come up.
Brenda is free and clear.
I still have some more testingto do and, in addition to
(03:53):
working a lot and I think mylife has just felt really
compressed and I just needed arelease.
But I thought it was soimportant because, as I cried
and I saw Brenda just well, Iexperienced that I'm seeing her
because, well, we record onRiverside so I get to see her
gorgeous face, so she justwatches me and witnesses me.
But she's holding space for meright now and I thought, oh, she
(04:13):
can just be there because we'reat a level of practice where it
passes so quickly but we canforget that it took some work to
get here.
So I'm going to be in my feelsand I'm going to pass it over to
Brenda and I'm going to ask you, brenda, like do you remember
how hard it would be prior to toget to this spot where you
(04:36):
could just cry in front ofsomeone else and like just trust
that it was going to pass andnot have to go into the whole
story behind something, just tobe able to feel?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It's such a beautiful , advanced pose to be able to
just cry in front of somebodyelse and not have a whole story
about it, and I think you justdemonstrated that really well.
Just for context, folks, wewere talking and Catherine said,
actually just hit record, andso I did, and then she burst
(05:11):
into tears and I'm like allright, this is what we're doing.
We're going to actually showthis part, which is really cool.
I think it takes a lot ofpractice to know and to get used
to like, oh, I could just cryin front of somebody and not
really go into a whole story.
(05:32):
I think it's uncomfortable formost of us to cry in front of
other people and we have a lotof conditioning in our culture
like don't cry, here's a tissueculture, like don't cry, here's
a tissue.
Even in places I've been inwhere we're saying it's okay to
cry, I've still seen people sayit's okay to cry, but here's a
(05:53):
tissue, which is really quite amixed message.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I always need a tissue.
I hate feeling stuff I love inthose spaces.
When they had me a tissue, Idon't look at it like not
permission to cry.
For me it's like permission tobreathe, to be able to cry and
breathe because, like I'll crybelow my nose, cry below my nose
, that sort of thing.
(06:16):
I you're an advancedpractitioner, catherine, I think
in a lot of spaces.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
When somebody hands someone a tissue, there is an
unsaid message of don't cry, orsometimes people receive it as
stop crying it.
That's not what the messagealways has to be, so I like to
just not do tissues.
If I'm in a space with womenand somebody's crying, I want to
(06:50):
hide the tissues.
I just want to be like cry andsnot and let it all out Like
full permission, full outpermission to just let it all
out.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I love that I would not be able to do it.
My physical body, I wouldprobably go into a like a
nervous system response if Icouldn't breathe for whatever
reason, whether it's like Idon't know, traumatic asthmatic
experience as a child orsomething like that.
I think there's just some formof body response like I want to
(07:23):
be able, like I want to be ableto breathe, I want to be able to
, like I'd be afraid of passingout, dying.
You know the Capricorn.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Wait, you want to breathe, she wants to breathe.
Folks, I love a woman who knowswhat she wants, and this woman
wants to breathe.
You know there's so many pointsin this.
First of all, you justdemonstrated that we really are
(07:51):
all different.
Giving someone a tissue doesnot always mean stop crying.
Somebody can certainly take itthat way, but I think when we're
starting with new clients way,but I think with when we're when
we're starting with new clients, it is nice to say the
permission oh, don't worry, youdon't need a tissue.
It's kind of like you can justcry and snot.
(08:12):
Anyway, are we really talkingabout snot and tissues?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
We are, and I I think that it's true, brenda, that
there is a societal attachmentto the tissue right, or
conditioning attachment to thetissue here.
You don't, you know, it's notthat bad, you're going to be
okay.
This too shall pass, this sortof like diminishing the
(08:38):
importance of the cry and thefeel, and I think that that
conditioning, unspokenly andsaid transfers into emotions are
scary and shouldn't be felt,and I think that's what you're
pointing to like no, feeleverything.
Right, there's so muchpermission and to feel
(08:58):
everything, I'm not going to say, feeling shitty feels good
because it doesn't.
I'm not going to say feelingshitty feels good because it
doesn't, you feel shitty, itfeels shitty, feels bad.
And then it feels good on theother side because it's like a
life lived, a life experienced.
We're not clamping andcontrolling anywhere.
(09:19):
And what I'm hoping to talkabout right now in this segment
or today in the cry share, islike even though this is an
advanced pose, there are certainsteps that get us here right.
So for me, if I'm crying in theearly days and you handed me a
(09:40):
tissue, it was equivalent togiving me a teddy bear or a soft
blanket.
It was like what do you need?
Like, what support do you needin order for you to be fully
expressed here?
And I think that's the thinglike how can I best support you?
Right?
And for Brenda, I think thebest support is like hey, it's
not whatever like be completelyhuman bodily fluids, whatever
(10:08):
like be completely human bodilyfluids, whatever like no shame,
no guilt, just be and just beseen and felt here.
And for me it's like what doyou need, you know, and I would
say you know, other than atissue?
Usually when I'm falling apartlike that, like I want a hug,
and the hug usually like justhas me, me, oh my God, just even
thinking about it just has memelt, you know, and it's almost
(10:33):
the sensation, my physical body,if I were to paint it, it's as
if somebody is holding up myspine, and in that moment I
don't have to hold myself up, Iget to just melt in someone
else's nervous system and feelcared for and feel held and
loved, right, and we don'talways get to have that Like I
don't have that in this moment.
Brenda isn't physically here,she's actually all the way
(10:55):
across the US right now she's inCalifornia, and yet she was
still able, with her presence,to hold me.
And so, thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
It's really my pleasure.
These are my favorite kind ofmoments in life.
I was going to say podcastepisodes, but when you said hit
record, I was like, all right,here we go and I was thinking
about how much I love just doingthings on the fly and being
unconventional in that way, andthis is something that really
works for us.
Catherine will be like just hitrecord and she'll start talking
and then I'll pick up fromthere.
(11:35):
We work really well that wayand it's taken a long time to
build that up.
We could not have done that inthe beginning.
But I want to say a few thingshere in the beginning.
But I want to say a few thingshere.
One is when we started thisrecording, catherine was in
(12:01):
tears.
She hit mute to blow her nose.
I may edit that out so thatspace might not be in there, but
I want to say that about sevenor eight minutes into this
recording she was alreadylaughing.
Because, folks, when you giveyourself permission to be with
what is true in the moment andyou let yourself have it, you
(12:24):
let yourself be seen, you letyourself be held, you let
yourself be loved, it shifts, itjust shifts, and we talk about
that a lot on this podcast andit's funny that we're talking
about this right now, becauseI've been thinking about that.
(12:45):
One of the things we talk abouta lot on this podcast is story
we talk about.
You don't have to go into story, you could just feel, and I
don't know that we've done anadequate job of really
explaining what that means.
And at the beginning of thisepisode, catherine, you
demonstrated that in real time.
(13:06):
So I want to bring everyone'sattention back to that, which
was when she was talking about,at the beginning, coaching
herself and her brain wants togo on this whole story.
She said we were doing somestuff in the background and that
she just felt this wave ofemotion come background, and
(13:28):
that she just felt this wave ofemotion come and she said to you
, I'm not going to go into allthe logistics of what I'm
feeling or what's happening inmy brain, I'm just going to feel
it right here and let you seeit.
That is exactly what we mean bynot going into story.
By not going into story, it's agreat example in real time of
(13:51):
just letting the emotion comeout and come through your body
and come out as tears, as snot,as farts, as burps, as shaking
whatever it comes out as and nothave to tell a whole story
about it.
Anything you want to add tothat?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Catherine, there's two things that come up for me.
I'm just going to put it in theback burner.
I want to go a little bit.
I want us to go into likeletting yourself have it.
I want to go in there a littlebit and I want to go there.
I want to go into that a littlemore in a bit.
I want to go there.
I want to go into that a littlemore in a bit.
But as far as not going to thestory, yes, for me story is like
(14:29):
an avalanche.
Not that long ago I don't knowif I've told everyone this yet
our public forum here I cameacross a journal that said how
can I have more peace right now?
And it was talking aboutanxiety.
And I was like, oh crap, I usedto have, I used to be anxious.
(14:49):
This must be a journal, I don'tknow.
2003, 2006, 2009, something inthat arena, and now we're in
2025.
And this version of me does noteven remember that.
But if I think back, I rememberI was living with a boyfriend,
(15:14):
you know, eons ago.
I've looked at people before,but I was waking up around nine,
maybe seven, in the morning andI remember my eyes would open
nine, maybe seven in the morningand I remember my eyes would
open and my brain would go and Iand go, go, go, go, go, go go.
And I was like holy shit, it'sintense in this head Like
(15:35):
there's a lot going on.
For the most part, I justwanted to control so many
factors.
I wanted so many things to goparticular way, control so many
factors.
I wanted so many things to go aparticular way.
And when I think back to thattime in hindsight I'm like, oh,
it was like an avalanche.
It's like being somewhere andthere's this tiny thought, right
(16:01):
, like a little bit of snow, andthen there's more snow, more
snow, more snow.
The next thing, you know,there's like a whole town being
wiped out because of anavalanche.
And that would be happening inmy mind.
It would be like one thought,another thought, another thought
, another thought.
If I were to go slower, it'ssort of like the thoughts are
going, going, going, likewindshield washers, windshield
(16:23):
wipers, and the attempt is orthe underlying underneath that
level, on the top level is oh, Ifeel uncomfortable.
Then my mind goes in windshieldwipers.
Just one thought.
Next thought, next thought.
In actuality, it's like I havea discomfort.
I have a thought that'screating a feeling and that
(16:46):
feeling is discomfort.
And now I don't want to feelthat discomfort because I'm so
damn afraid of that discomfort,because I don't want to be in
that discomfort, because thatdiscomfort is somehow close to
death.
It feels like I'm dying and Iwant to control all the little
pieces and people in my life.
(17:06):
So, and fast forward I mean wecan talk about the middle of
this, but fast forward to 2025,recording this podcast.
I think we're at the end of the70s, like in 80s, and I'm able
to be in the middle of logistics.
Things are going wrong.
We're having two messes, we'rehaving some issues while we
(17:28):
record and I can feel the waveof tears coming up.
And I can feel the wave oftears coming up.
The story is like in the back ofmy mind, because I recognize
that it's sort of likecompression, like I needed a
release of some kind.
I could somewhat feel it onSaturday Brenda had checked in
with me, like how are you doing?
I was like, oh, I'm in thevortex, which basically means I
(17:52):
can, like I'm a true generator,like a workhorse.
If I'm doing something, I'mjust going going, going, going.
I'm not going to really feeluntil I pause.
A previous version of me 20years ago I don't know if you
listeners can relate just keptgoing to not pause, to not feel
(18:13):
that discomfort.
Present day, I felt thatdiscomfort and I was like, oh
okay, I get to have it, I get tohave this release.
It's going to feel reallyshitty in the moment as I'm
feeling it, hence tears andclimax, but on the other side of
that, it's okay, butpredominantly because I'm not
(18:35):
feeding the avalanche, right?
I specifically said I don't wantto go into story, and that's on
purpose, because I know thatthen I'm just sort of like
tugging on the pain, or maybethat you could look at it like
(19:01):
on the pain, or maybe you couldlook at it like touching the
scab wherever the wound is andgoing into the story.
I could make up a story rightnow.
The story would sort of soundlike I have no time or, oh, my
goodness, why is this happeningto me?
Or something like that.
Why is this happening to me?
Or something like that.
Versus, oh, I have a lot on myplate, all by choice, because a
(19:27):
life well lived is full, and soit makes sense that sometimes
we're going to put a little bitmore on our plates and it's a
balancing act and it's a seesaw,and we adjust and we learn.
But the only way to adjust,learn and go through the
feedback loop is to be in itright.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Beautifully explained .
This is a great metaphor aboutan avalanche.
The avalanche coming down islike a story and not feeding it.
When you were giving theexamples of your story, I could
feel that part of me, that lovestory, that just wants to get in
there and be like oh, tell memore about the story, or let me
(20:05):
tell you about my story, andsometimes.
Well, two things I want to sayabout that.
One sometimes we just do thatand that's okay.
It is nice to notice it andmove past it in your life,
because then you could justactually be with the feeling.
And the other thing issometimes there are things that
do need to be said, Like you canfeel your raw emotion and you
(20:29):
can feel the actual sensation.
Because when we have feelings,we do have sensations in our
body and it's good to payattention to those because your
body is speaking to you thismorning.
I had a bad dream last night andit really affected my nervous
system and I could feel likethis tightening in my chest this
morning and it told me that Iwas a little bit unnerved from
(20:53):
that and I needed to payattention to that and give that
part of me some love.
Now do I want to go into thewhole story of it and telling
everyone the bad dream.
No, I don't, Because I get tochoose where I put my attention.
And while it is fun to go downthe drama path and we get a lot
(21:17):
of attention there, I thinkthat's how most women are still
relating in the drama and in thestory and I'm going to try and
say this without a lot ofjudgment, but it's a low level
way to relate in drama.
It's a low level way to relateand have friends and have
(21:42):
relationships is just talkingabout the story all the time.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I think that I love how you prefaced it and said you
want to go into non-judgment.
And I think this is the perfectexample, because there was a
little bit of judge right Oflike the low level relate, and
then Brenda's like probably hadmore thoughts and she's like
fuck, you know, or I mean,that's not I'm speaking for her,
but I, you can see it.
(22:09):
And one of the reasons and hereand one of the reasons why this
is like low level relate inreal time, it's because it's
really hard to form connectionor to really go deeper.
Right, it's like you have storyand then it's sort of like fast
food empty calories, there'snot much left.
So we can relate in the storyand then we can poke at each
(22:34):
other's wounds and then we canfeel shitty and then that's it.
There's nowhere else to go fromthere.
And Brenda just showed it likebeautifully in real time.
And then so there we are.
We're like, yeah, it'slow-level relating.
And then we're like, now what?
I don't really know where to gofrom there.
But if I'm going to see if Ican form a picture because you
(23:00):
did such a great job at talkingabout it, ronda in my head I'm
like, okay, we have the story,we have the non-story and what
we're talking about is how to bewith things without story,
right, and then you saidpermission for full story, which
I loved.
So we're looking at permissionfor full story.
It sort of looks like we have astory, we're processing it in
(23:20):
real time.
I do that a lot because I'm anaudibly, I like to alchemize
audibly.
So tell the story, I'mprocessing, I'm going through my
learnings and then there's somealchemy that happens.
The thing we haven't touched onyet is that if I am in my
(23:43):
feelings and telling the story,well, now I'm activated because
my nervous system is activatedand it's very difficult for me
to process, learn or alchemizebecause I'm in fight, flight,
freeze or fawn right, I'mactivated.
I can't see clearly versus.
If I'm a non-story and I feelthe activation, I feel the
(24:04):
feeling come through, I justfeel my feelings, then I'm
actually tending to my nervoussystem eruption versus going
into the story.
So I tend to my nervous system,which allows it's almost like
cold water on that activation,on that heat, it's sort of okay,
(24:28):
fires out, no emergency, allthe sirens and alarms have gone
off and they're quiet and now Ican go into potentially a story
if I still want to, then I couldtell my story process it, think
about whatever learnings havecome up, alchemize, and so I
(24:50):
think I don't know if there's aphrase for us, brenda, maybe we
can come up with something, butit's sort of like the low level
way to relate.
When we have friends and we justtalk about story while
activated, is that the onlything not much more than the
avalanche is really available.
Available, like we're onlyreally revving each other up
(25:13):
Either my life is shittier thanyours, my life is shittier than
yours, and we kind of go backand forth and compete, or, yes,
there's not.
It's very hard to go deep there, which means it's hard to get
nourishment, and sisterhood isso nourishing.
And so when you say low levelrelating, we're talking about
(25:36):
kind of like fast food, relatingwhere there's another way.
Right, we could have likegourmet relation where, okay, so
we're advanced practitioners.
So, yes, I could just cry, butlet's say it was years ago when
that wasn't available.
I didn't even have words.
The first place I started waslike can you just hold me?
(25:57):
And I was so bad at receivingsupport that one of my best
friends at the time used toactually hug me from behind
because I couldn't have her infront of me, because it would
make me like I would cry to thepoint that I couldn't really
handle it, like I would cry tothe point that I couldn't really
handle it, and so it was softerand gentler for me.
(26:18):
It's for her to have.
I'm just remember I don't knowif it was like a piano, at a
bench I can picture her rightnow hugging me from, like she's
standing.
I'm sitting.
Oh, my goodness, there's somany ways to try to meet
yourself where you are, to getin the ring, to attempt to have
and to create more sisterhood.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Wow, this is really quite a deep topic, because
being seen in your true feelings, in your real emotions, without
story, is quite intimate.
And I think we really block theintimacy that we say we want
(27:00):
hashtag and we block it.
I think we block it with story.
It's one way to block it withall the details and the story
and the hooking of the this andthe that and all these crazy
details, even if they're notcrazy details, I think it's a
distraction.
It's a distraction from juststanding there in presence, in
(27:22):
your feelings.
It's like being naked in a way,and just feeling and just being
.
It's intimate, it's intimate,it's powerful, it's really
powerful.
And I want to add another option.
Like we talked about theavalanche as being a low level
(27:44):
way to relate and I spent a lotof time there the new level of
sisterhood and we have to do awhole episode on sisterhood.
That's going to be anotherepisode, but is backing each
other's desires, backing eachother in who we truly are as
women, and taking each otherhigher and deeper than the fast
(28:09):
food that's just being offeredout in the world.
We've talked a lot about how doyou have that and how do you
surround yourself with that?
Well, it starts with being ityourself.
Being it yourself.
So maybe this inspires you insome way, listening to this.
The invitation is can you letyourself feel, can you let
(28:33):
yourself be seen in the truth ofyour emotion?
And a beautiful thing ispossible in there.
So many beautiful things arepossible there.
But if story is a distractionwith other people, it's also a
distraction with yourself.
(28:57):
It's also a distraction withyourself because when something
comes in and it takes you downto this emotional place where
you're having some kind ofrelease, there's usually some
truth that wants to be seen.
Maybe it's something simple likeyou need something or you need
to say something, or maybeyou're noticing a pattern oh, I
(29:20):
always do this thing.
You can't see it and you can'tbe available for those things.
If you're just going so fast instory and, catherine, you said
it before pausing, all of thisbecomes possible.
When we pause, when we slow theF down, these things become
possible and we're actuallybecoming more available for what
(29:44):
we say we want in our lives.
This is one way that you canactually have more of what you
want in your life therelationships, the sex, the
friendships, the money, thethings by just being present
with what is here right now andletting yourself be seen and
(30:07):
maybe letting yourself be seenstarts just with you in a mirror
, or you and yourself scenestarts just with you in a mirror
, or you and yourself Don't pickup your phone when you're
having feelings.
That's a kind of intimacy aswell, just being with yourself.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Totally so good.
Brenda, you just touched on somany beautiful things.
I love how you pointed back tothe story that avalanche.
It really does take us awayfrom ourselves because it
distracts us.
It keeps us in our mind, whichmeans that we're not in our
bodies because we're afraid tofeel whatever emotion is there
(30:44):
to feel, because it usually isnot like a yummy emotion, even
though emotions usually last 90seconds, a few minutes.
It's really not that long, butit might as well be a lifetime
or a death sentence.
In that moment it's like thelast thing, the last place we
want to go to.
When we're going that fast, itis a distraction and it's
(31:07):
designed on purpose.
The mind is trying to keep ussafe from that uncomfortable
feeling.
The mind is trying to keep ussafe from that uncomfortable
feeling.
The limit, the primal brain,it's keeping us on the
distraction train.
We're going so fast.
It's like our own special orientexpress and without slowing
(31:29):
down it's very difficult for usto see our possibilities, like
we can't.
And without slowing down wecan't feel our feelings.
Us to see our possibilities?
We can't.
And without slowing down wecan't feel our feelings.
We don't feel our feelings.
We're activated and we can'tsee.
While activated.
It's just not the way the brainis designed.
We're just looking for thetiger right.
(31:52):
We're activated and everywherewe look there's a tiger.
Everywhere we look, it'shorrendous.
Everywhere we look, there's noway out.
Everywhere we look, there's astop sign.
Everywhere we look, thingsaren't working because we're
activated.
That's what being activatedmeans.
No matter what I do, where Ilook, where I wanna go, it's
crappy Versus.
(32:13):
If I could just hunker down,tell myself I can do hard things
and either way is hard.
Being in the avalanche is hardbecause living in that spin is
so crazy.
Making it's like you're in thespin cycle of a washing machine
and feeling your feelings ishorrendous.
It's like you're in the spincycle of a washing machine and
(32:34):
feeling your feelings ishorrendous.
It's like you're at death'sdoor, just at the bottom heart
bleeding out.
You could write poems downthere.
I mean so many people do writepoems, songs, et cetera from
down there.
It's that heart wrenching.
Neither is a good choice butour spin cycle, washing machine,
(32:54):
avalanche brain.
There's no real relief on theother side of that.
We just get tighter and morecontrolling, creating more fear
for ourselves versus finding thecourage to feel the feelings,
feel the actual release thatcomes from that and, god willing
(33:18):
, be neutral enough to see someform of light and possibility.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yeah, I want to tell you what's worse than feeling
all those feelings, all thosefeelings, suffering and
resistance to me is worse thanfeeling all of those feelings.
And feeling those feelings canbe a lot, it really it really
can be.
(33:45):
But I've done both.
I've spent a lot of time inresistance and it's I've
suffered there, versus allowingyourself to go into the feeling,
and into it feels likesuffering, to end all suffering,
like you're going to movethrough it, where suffering, to
(34:07):
suffer in resistance feels verydisempowered and stuck.
And so to me, at this point inmy life, as much as I sometimes
don't want to feel all of thethings, I'm like, oh, if I just
open the door and go in, I willhave relief on the other side.
(34:32):
And to me, going back, that'sthe game that I'm playing in
this life is my desire to be whoI truly am in this world, and
that, to me, is being fullyexpressed.
That's been my journey and,yeah, just to say I do have
(34:52):
resistance to it sometimes.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Still, I was just going to piggyback that you
still have some hindsight, right, like you do have some 20-20.
You're able to say, oh, thisfeels crappy, I don't want to
feel my feelings.
Not feeling my feelings feelscrappy.
Okay, decision time.
Right.
You're saying, oh, what's worsethan not feeling my feelings,
being in the resistance of it?
And, yes, we want to be yourmasters and tell you that's the
(35:18):
way to go.
But no, without the experienceright, it's going to be really
hard.
Like one of our goals here isfor you to have also that 2020
vision right, for you to also beable to know oh, feeling my
feelings is a better route,because I can compare it to when
(35:39):
I wasn't feeling my feelings.
Right, I can see the freedomthat comes from feeling my
feelings.
Oh, my goodness, taking deepbreaths while not being in the
avalanche, while not beingactivated.
Being able to have that be oneof the lighthouses is a
(36:01):
beautiful thing?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yeah, it really is, and we're here giving you
permission.
So if you're listening to thispodcast episode and you're
someone who's like this thingkeeps happening, or I can't seem
to have this thing that I wantin my life, or why isn't my life
the way I want it to be, insome form of that we're giving
you, we're handing you a littletreat here saying here's one way
(36:34):
that you can try and work withyourself to have more of what
you want in your life.
And in this episode we'resuggesting to you the treat is
drop story and just be presentand feel your feelings with
yourself or with another person,and just see what happens with
another person and just see whathappens.
Just see what happens.
And given that, I want to bringit back into closing to
(36:56):
Catherine, as we're into thisepisode, I just want to check
back in with you full circleAnything that you want to say
about your process in the last38 minutes and what it felt like
to start out, not only feelingyour feelings but sharing them
here and and what that was likefor you and where you are now.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Thank you for the question.
It definitely stretches me totry to remember all the parts.
So I started out by cryingbecause I needed a release.
I felt a lot of pressure andcompression and then I shared
(37:41):
okay, I'm not going intologistics of all the things that
are not going right, I'm justgoing to feel, and then it feels
like a climax and then I havethe cry, and then there's sort
of this neutrality that comes inwhere it's almost like the
(38:01):
problem's not even not really aproblem anymore because it's.
It's as if the bond went, goesoff, and then the dust is sort
of settling.
I'm not really thinking aboutthat anymore.
I'm sort of at that point in mybody just feeling the
sensations while also beingwitnessed by you.
(38:24):
So currently my experience ofthis recording isn't oh, my
goodness, everybody's listening.
It's more oh, brenda'switnessing me and we're sharing
the witness with the world, orwhoever listens to the podcast.
You witnessed me.
(38:45):
You held me so beautifully, andby held I just mean she was
there on her side of the screen,grounded, while I cry,
sometimes eyes closed and tearsrunning down my face, and when I
open my eyes I can just see her, and that's very co-regulating.
(39:08):
So if we were in person,probably that would be happening
too.
And then we sort of just startedto talk about the process, of
what became more important wasless about the logistics and
less about what's going wrong.
And the climax it was like, ohwait, I'm having this experience
.
I'm really experiencing tons ofrelief.
(39:30):
I can feel the relief comingand I know it wasn't this fast
in the beginning.
I know it took time to get here.
Actually it took decades.
Hopefully for other people it'sfaster, but just my experience
of it it wasn't that fast.
Actually, when I started myjourney I didn't really have
(39:52):
access to emotions, so it waspretty difficult to tap into
something that wasn't on thesurface by any means.
And now that we sort of talkedabout the cry, the being
witnessed, the being willing tofeel the distractions that come
about, which is the mind theavalanche, feel the distractions
that come about, which is themind the avalanche.
(40:16):
We talked about low-levelrelating and how sometimes with
women we will either gossip ortalk bad about each other or
talk bad about ourselves to eachother.
Then it sort of pointed to thisbigger arc of what's actually
available when, of what'sactually available when.
That's not the form of relating, where we're just seeing each
(40:36):
other raw by raw I meanunfiltered, not trying to make
myself look different thanwhat's happening and how much
connection is available thereand intimacy, and it definitely
doesn't feel like processed foodor fast food.
It feels really intimate and itfeels really connecting and it
(40:59):
feels really nourishing.
And I would say this I knowthat you you mentioned earlier,
brenda, that you'd like to do arecording on sisterhood
mentioned earlier, brenda, thatyou'd like to do a recording on
sisterhood I'm like, oh yes, allof these pieces and parts sort
(41:23):
of contribute to that crescendoof sisterhood.
It's part of what makes ahigher level relating.
It's what makes connecting atthis level possible and
beautiful.
And I'm now going to circle backto something that Brenda said.
She said we just have to letourselves have it, and I know
that sometimes that phrase isn'tclear.
It's not like we're not lettingourselves have it.
(41:45):
So if I were to use thatsentence in the experience today
, letting myself have it meant Ilet myself cry and be seen
without story.
Let myself be held andwitnessed without story, let
(42:06):
myself feel without letting mymind go on the Orient Express
and create an avalanche of story, where I'm now distracted and
not feeling.
That's what letting yourselfhave it means.
Not letting myself have itwould look like I want to cry
and I say to Brenda I'm going tobe right back, and then that
(42:31):
would be full stop.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Thank you for that Full stop.
There's so much juice in theother one.
There's so much juice inletting yourself have it, and if
you're listening and you wantmore on that, episode 79 we just
dropped is all about receiving,but episode 79, we just dropped
is all about receiving.
Like.
In order for Catherine to havehad this experience, she had to
(42:57):
be open to receive, and me aswell.
I was open to receive Catherineand receive the moment.
We were both open to receiveand created this beautiful
episode that we did not plan.
This was 100% organic in themoment and that's one of my
(43:18):
favorite things to do.
So we would love to hear howthis episode landed for you.
What jewels and gems did youget?
Did you receive our treat?
Please let us know what yourtakeaways and insights are.
You can tag us on Instagram atDesire is Medicine Podcast.
We would absolutely love tohear from you.
(43:39):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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