April 16, 2025 • 53 mins
Have you ever considered that all your relationships don't need to serve the same purpose? In this episode, we explore friendships, and dive into seven categories of connection that enrich our lives in different ways.
We decided to reference ~ Lane Moore's book "You Will Find Your People," we unpacked how soul friendships, chosen family, long-distance connections, situational bonds, trauma-bonded relationships, surface-level interactions, and one-sided friendships each play unique roles in our social landscape. Rather than judging these varying depths of connection, we celebrate how each serves different needs at different times in our lives. It was refreshing to reference the book categories while also speaking about our own experiences. It definitely felt like a renewed celebration as we touched on some possibilities.
Episode Highlights:
• Not every conversation needs to open the "back of our heart" or lead to transformation
• Soul friendships provide rare, deep connections where we feel truly seen and understood
• Having capacity for intimacy requires personal growth and emotional regulation
• Long-distance friendships thrive with technology but in-person time reveals new dimensions
• Situational friendships (like with coworkers) can be enjoyable and serve important purposes in our life
• Trauma bonding happens when connections form around shared difficulties rather than growth
• Surface-level friendships allow for light, enjoyable interactions without emotional investment
• One-sided friendships occur when effort is imbalanced, often requiring self-awareness
• Different friendship types serve different needs at different times in our lives
• The expectation that one person should fulfill all our needs is not only unrealistic it also leads to disappointment
We'd love to hear your experiences with different friendship categories. DM us or write a review on Apple!
P.S. As promised, here's a list of the 7 types of friendships we discuss in this episode: For more details and insight, check out the book You Will Find Your People, by Lane Moore.
- Surface-Level Friendships – These are casual acquaintances or people you interact with in social settings but don’t form deep connections with.
- Situational Friendships – Friendships that arise due to shared circumstances, like coworkers, classmates, or neighbors. These connections may fade when the situation changes.
- Trauma-Bonded Friendships – Relationships that form due to shared difficult experiences, where the bond is rooted more in mutual pain than in mutual growth.
- One-Sided Friendships – Friendships where one person puts in significantly more effort than the other, often leading to feelings of imbalance or frustration.
- Long-Distance Friendships – Friends who remain close despite physical distance, relying on texts, calls, or visits to maintain the bond.
- Chosen Family – Deep, meaningful friendships that feel more like family, offering the emotional support and unconditional love that may be missing from biological family relationships.
- Soul Friendships – Rare, deep connections where you feel truly seen, understood, and accepted for who you are. These friendships can be lifelong and transformative.
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
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@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back family and friends.
Oh, it's been so wonderful tojust meet up with the lovely
(01:34):
Brenda.
She is here, as always, lookingfabulous and just always
backing our desire to record andbe of service.
We have had, or I have had, wehaven't had, I have had a few
tech issues, so hopefully todaywill be as smooth as can be, but
we just don't know.
So we are at it, doing our bestwith what we have, and that
seems to be a theme thatcontinues to pop up for me.
(01:56):
I am just doing the best I canwith what I have, and if I look
back, I'm still saying to myselfoh yeah, back there, I just
that version of me did the bestshe could with what she had, and
I want to invite you all to dothe same With that in mind in
here, doing our best.
(02:16):
When we started to hit the 80sin recordings on the Desire as
Medicine podcast, Brenda and I,we were talking about like how
can we be people that people arehonest with, Like how can we be
a safe place to really hearhonesty?
Then we had this lovely episodewhere I was crying and we
(02:39):
talked about spinning and whatit feels like to just be
reveling in your story, feelinglike queen, victim of whatever's
occurring and how life is justhappening to you, et cetera, et
cetera.
And we landed on this gorgeousplace of sisterhood and the
power of high-level relating.
That would be episode 82.
And we just explored honesty,because honesty really makes
(03:03):
sisterhood so much juicier.
Who wants to be relating withanother human?
That is just not being 100%transparent.
It's possible.
It's just not as enjoyable.
And when we think aboutpossibility we also covered that
(03:33):
in 84, talked about possibilityand how amazing it is to see
someone else show us something.
That would just blow our minds.
Recently I heard someone talkingabout a different coach.
I'm in a course and she saidthis phrase like I've definitely
straddled and made sure that Idon't overwork.
I've had an area of time in mylife where I really experienced
burnout.
And she posed this question oflike were you really physically
(03:53):
burnt out or were you justexhausted by the thoughts you
were having?
Were you exhausted by thefeelings you were having?
And just in that conversation.
It opened up so muchpossibility for me.
So much is available to us whenwe are just in conversation
with what's real, with what's inthe room, and you just don't
(04:15):
know how big of an impact youhave on another human.
And not every conversation hasto take us to the other side of
transformation, where you're onthe floor, guts open, saying you
just changed my life.
Sometimes I'm having aconversation about.
Right now I'm watching theseries on television.
(04:35):
It's called Doc.
I find it super fascinatingbecause it's about a doctor who
loses her memory because she wasin an accident.
It's about a doctor who losesher memory because she was in an
accident.
I don't have to go into all thedetails, but I can chat with
somebody about something likethat or talk about Reacher how
hot he is, and like there'sanother season of that on Prime.
Like not every conversation hasto be like oh, my goodness, I
(04:58):
wasn't burnt out, I was actuallyhating my emotions.
Like not every conversationthat I have with another human
has to open all the doors in theback of my heart or shoot me to
the point that I'm just likecrying at tears and like
Brenda's saying thank God,Brenda, go ahead, Come on, this
is what we're talking abouttoday.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, thank God.
Thank God every conversationisn't going to open up the very
back of our heart.
That's not even realistic.
Sometimes it's great to justtalk about what we're watching
on TV or the weather.
The weather could be really funto talk about.
A friend of mine said,depending on who you're talking
about, talking about the weathercould be different kinds of
(05:39):
conversation, like there's evenmany levels to just that.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yes, there is so much there.
I mean so much so that Brendaand I were talking about this
the other day and she mentionedthis book I don't know if you
happy listeners know it.
It's called you Will Find yourPeople by Elaine Moore, and she
definitely explores differenttypes of relationships.
Brenda and I were like we wantto talk about this, especially
(06:05):
on the Sisterhood series,because the ultimate goal isn't
to have deep conversations 360all around in your life.
It's just not possible.
Just like you can't have anamazing day every single day or
be in the best mood Right nowI'm giggling just thinking about
a woman's body and her menses.
(06:27):
Like when are we exactly in thebest of moods all the time?
It's just not feasible, right.
Like some of it is gonna besuper yum in life and some of it
is gonna just suck.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Also, if we're talking about real life, we're
not ever in the same place allthe time.
Nothing is ever the same and wetalk about that a lot on this
podcast, about how, if we'reliving in the rhythm of nature,
we are always in change andwe're experiencing life in many
different facets.
And if we expect things toalways be the same, so if we
(07:01):
expect, say, deep conversationswherever we go, we're kind of
missing out.
I love deep conversations thoseare my favorite where you just
get into that deep heart spaceand there's like that connection
and there's an actual energythat's present.
It just feels so good and youfeel like you're touching each
other's souls and you rememberit forever.
(07:22):
But it can't always be likethat.
So this book you Will Find yourPeople by Lane Moore a friend of
mine actually was reading itbecause she was exploring
friendship and she was tellingme about how she was looking at
friendship and her sisterhood inher life to have more of what
she actually wants, and I justloved her approach.
I think we've all experienceddifferent kinds of friendships.
(07:44):
Loved her approach.
I think we've all experienceddifferent kinds of friendships,
but have we really sat down anddefined them?
Like, what are the differentkinds of friendships.
I think we all have heard thephrase we have relationships for
a reason, a season or alifetime, and that's really true
.
And what I love about this isthat she goes in even deeper.
(08:08):
And so Catherine and I thoughtlet's explore this.
You know, we're over heretalking about sisterhood for a
couple of episodes and reallytalking about what's possible,
and Catherine and I do have asoul friendship, and I have a
lot of soul friendships in mylife where I feel truly seen,
where I can really be myself andI can mess up and be honest.
(08:31):
They're transformative.
These are soul relationships,but they're not all like that
and that's not a bad thing.
I think we could just beneutral and, like you said,
Catherine, in reality, with whatsomething is, can we just meet
it for what it is?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yes, there's so much breath there.
It's like can I just be withwhat is what's real, not have to
transform it or change it, andwe can start like in the book.
Lane has a section for soulfriendships and she talks about
(09:10):
it as rare, deep connectionswhere you feel truly seen,
understood and accepted for whoyou are.
These friendships can belifelong and transformative, as
Brenda said.
But not every relationship isgoing to be a soul friendship
and I'm just going to speak frommy own experience.
I understand the desire for it.
I remember going to differentevents or retreats.
(09:32):
I would go away for three, fourdays and I would say to myself
this this is what I want.
I want every relationship to bethis way.
And I remember I think it was2015, I was leaving a particular
coaches event.
And I remember, I think it was2015, I was leaving a particular
coaches event.
I was in maybe Arizona, sedona,I don't know somewhere over
there where it's very warm, andI'm looking at all the cactuses
(09:56):
and desert grass and I said tomyself I want this forever.
I want this.
How do I have this be part ofmy everyday living?
It's the best way to describeit now, in hindsight, in 2025,
it's been 10 years is that I wasreally hungry for that sort of
relating right.
(10:16):
What comes up for you, brenda,around soul friendships.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I was so hungry for it, just like you said, I wanted
it so badly and I didn't knowhow to have it.
I had it in a couple of placesin my life or, like I said
before, like you could touch onit, like that feeling.
Usually it happens maybe it'ssleepovers when you're a kid, or
even an adult, like late atnight when everything's done and
(10:41):
there's nothing left to do,when you've stayed at dinner way
too long and it's the bestthing ever.
I really wanted that and Ireally tried to create it in my
life and there were moments thatI created it, but it wasn't
really until I dove into my ownpersonal transformation and put
(11:03):
myself into rooms with otherpeople who really wanted that
kind of connection that I reallystarted having it.
And I would say now, 17 yearslater, I have that every day.
I have that every day in myrelationships and also I am that
like I'm able to go really deep, I'm able to hold good space
(11:26):
for people, I'm able to tell thetruth, I'm able to receive
truths and all of those things.
So I embody that right now andI also have all the other kinds
of friendships as well andthey're wonderful.
But going back to what you said, being hungry for it.
I think that we really do allwant these deep soul friendships
(11:47):
, and we don't always know howto get it.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
And I want to say that for anybody listening.
If you don't want it, that'sokay too.
Like I understand that I thinkthere was a time where people
would ask me really deepquestions.
I want to say in my 20spotentially, because I was
really big on like meditationand being still and stillness
(12:12):
and a lot of my retreats orevents they were sort of like
that.
So a lot of Tai Chi, qigong andstillness and heart opening
exercises, but it wasn't a lotof talking or conversation.
It wasn't that style.
I wasn't in those rooms and ifsomebody was poking around too
much I was like why are peoplepoking around?
And by poking around I meanlike asking really deep
(12:34):
questions when I felt like, oh,this came out of nowhere, why is
this person asking me thisperson?
I had this like hierarchy atthat time of you and I are not
that cool.
You'd be asking me thesequestions and that could just be
the New Yorker in me.
I'm like you don't need to knowall that.
There's this background in NewYork I think when you were from
(12:55):
the city, this Italianbackground of you.
Don't ask people really deepquestions because, like,
whatever they want you to know,they tell you.
So you're not digging in thereunless you're cool.
It's like so I would you toknow.
They tell you.
So you're not digging in thereunless you're cool.
So I would say to myself doesthis person think that we're
really cool like that thatthey're asking me these
questions?
But now I could be with acomplete stranger who asked me
something that's super deep andthere's a really high percentage
(13:17):
that I'll answer it, because Idon't have the same level of
safety requirement aroundsecrets.
Right, I see Brenda's eyeswidening.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, Now that's beautiful the way you said that,
but I want to go back to whatyou said.
Not everybody wants that kindof friendship.
I'm so glad you said that.
Here I am over here saying weall want that.
I think a lot of people reallydo want that and I would even
argue that deep down beloweveryone's hurt and wounding and
(13:53):
traumas, that they really dowant that.
I think that we really arebuilt for that.
But of course, with people,people can get hurt easily.
They've been burned in the past, they've had bad experience,
whatever kind of trauma it isthat you're carrying in the
world, or karma from your pastlives, if you believe in that.
Some people just don't want tobe bothered because it's too
(14:15):
much effort or it hurts too muchor it could be expensive to
yourself, and so maybe theydon't want that.
So I'm my mind over here is alittle blown.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
You know what's coming up for me.
It's sort of like when you sayeverybody wants it, it's
possible.
But I think there's a questionthat we can ask ourselves Are we
ready for it?
Right, yeah, like is the person.
Like, was I in my early 20sready to just expose my heart
myself to anyone?
(14:48):
No, I wasn't in that space.
Now I can hold myself there, Ican regulate my own nervous
system, I can talk about reallytough things.
I mean, I was just talking toBrenda about this not that long
ago.
I didn't like to cry, even onZoom, I wanted to mute myself.
Now I can record an episodewhere I start the episode crying
(15:10):
.
It's range, right, it'scapacity.
So, yes, brenda, I think that,yes, mind blown.
And are we ready?
There's other factors in soulfriendships, like am I ready for
it?
Are you ready for it?
Can you hold and regulate yournervous system in it?
Because when you share aboutsomething that was really
painful or you go to a reallydeep place, it's emotional.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It is and it's vulnerable.
It's really vulnerable and whenyou're vulnerable, there's the
possibility of getting hurt.
As we grow and learn and wehave these experiences over time
and, like you said, if youreally want it, if you really
want it, you're going to learnhow to be the person who can
have it, and I think that takesa lifetime, maybe I don't know a
(16:00):
lifetime, if that's accurate.
I don't know.
I don't know the answer.
It's different for everybody.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
But I think that we build our capacity over time.
So you said in your 20s youweren't maybe able to go to the
places that you can go to now.
I certainly couldn't.
But did I have deeprelationships and friendships?
Yeah, I did.
I got married in my 20s,twenties and we did go deep.
(16:30):
We had a soul deep relationship.
I don't know what I would thinkof that now if I was in it.
I don't know.
But when I was in my twentiesit was great.
But it does change over timeand I think we change over time
and we grow and what we want andwhat we feel is possible
changes over time 100%, and Ialso want to say that I probably
had a more tier system than youdid in my 20s.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yes, there were people that I would go close
with, but it wasn't everyone.
My circle was a lot smaller.
My availability was a lotsmaller than what it is now.
I think now I have a lot morecapacity for it, and I would say
that part of it is, yes, Idon't want to get hurt.
Another part is just sort ofboundaried and range, sort of
(17:18):
really choosing when and whereand with whom, being very
intentional about who getsaccess.
I think we've talked about thattoo in the past, right, brenda,
when there is capacity forsomething, right.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Totally.
I mean there's times in ourlife where we have capacity and
space for a lot of deepconnection.
For instance, I was just inCalifornia for six weeks with a
bunch of women.
I went to this specific town inNorthern California because I
have friends there and it wasfriendship every day.
It was like getting togetherwith women and co-working and
(17:53):
dinners and going out and events.
Oh my goodness, it blew my mindwith what's possible.
It was wonderful and I had thespace for it.
I mean, I intentionally createdthe space for it and also I had
to expand into that.
The first few days that I gotthere I was seeing friends every
day and then I was suddenlyexhausted and I realized, oh,
(18:16):
this is a really important pieceof desire is that when we have
our desire and I have a desireto have close women friendships
in person and here I was havingit every day but when we have
our desire, we do have to buildour capacity for it.
And I didn't have the capacityfor it because my relationships
(18:36):
on the East Coast actually looka little bit different.
I'm not with women every day,like you, and I connect over
Zoom Hopefully we'll see eachother tomorrow but I see my
friends in person, but not everyday.
No way, it's just the way it isaround here it just doesn't
happen.
So I had to build up mycapacity to have it, because I
(18:58):
was tired at first I had aheadache.
I'm like, wow, I need a littlebreak here to rest, to give my
body space to integrate mydesire to be with women and
actually have the space in mybody to have it get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It doesn't matter where you're going, it takes an
hour.
It could be 10 miles, like onemile, it's taking an hour.
It's a bigger city, more people, more congestion.
So yes, there's otherparameters that we're working
(19:33):
with in this arena or this area,this location, that maybe other
cities don't have to deal.
But I love that you had that, Ilove that you had that time.
And I mean there's anothercategory here.
It's almost like Brenda'sexperience could fall into two
friendship categories One, longdistance friendships, because
she's talking about California.
She visited there and it's thelong distance friendship
(19:55):
Friendships.
Plural is friends who remainclose despite physical distance,
relying on text messages, callsor visits to maintain the bond.
And a little bit of acombination here, because
potentially some of thesefriends that brenda's talking
about she's going to let us knowsoon could be chosen family,
like deep, meaningfulfriendships that feel more, feel
(20:16):
more like family, offering theemotional support and
unconditional love that may bemissing from biological family
relationships.
And I just want to tag here thatI don't know how many
biological families have support, emotional support and
unconditional love.
I know that it's something thatpeople want and people talk
(20:37):
about.
I often hear, oh, my familydoesn't, and I'm like whose
family does.
Where is this Brady Bunchreality?
Who lives that life?
I know very few people thathave it.
I feel as though, no matter ourconditions, there's a certain
level of potential dysfunctionor discomfort or challenge.
(21:02):
Right, brenda, what comes upfor you when I talk to you about
your long distance, aka chosenfamily?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I love that.
It's really interesting.
When I was looking at this list, at this long distance
friendships, I thought, oh yeah,this, this group of people they
are.
They feel like chosen familyand soul friendships.
They are also long distancefriendships and two of the women
that I went to visit inCalifornia I've been in a
women's group with them once aweek since 2019 or 2018.
(21:32):
We meet once a week for allthese years and so we've gotten
really close and we've seen eachother through a lot of highs
and lows and we've really beenthere for each other, sharing on
Zoom our deepest.
Everything it's possible tomaintain friendships like that
(21:53):
over technology makes itpossible to be really deep.
So I want to be with thesepeople in real life.
So I got myself to California.
I mean, we had a whole roadtrip around it and I was there
for six weeks and one of thethings I was really thoughtful
about because I've had longdistance relationships before so
(22:15):
this is different.
It's long distance friendships,but some of the dynamics could
be the same, where you could endup going into fantasy about who
these people really are, andbeing in person is different.
It just is different.
So I was very mindful to noticeany fantasy or any way that I
(22:37):
put these people on a pedestaljust to notice.
Is this happening?
Are they so amazing and likenobody around here is so amazing
?
Because that would be a redflag.
I didn't think that, but I wasjust very mindful of noticing
any time I would potentiallyfall into that.
And it is different if you areseeing people over Zoom and
(23:01):
texting versus being with themin person.
You know, people are people andwe do our people things and
people get tired, they get, theyhave feelings, and so
interacting with someone inperson is quite different and it
did create space for that,which I'm grateful for.
And then also the beautifulthing about it is that you get
(23:26):
to be with people for who theyreally are and show yourself for
who you are.
You know, like some of my ownimperfections came out because
I'm there for six weeks.
It's very different than who Iam for an hour or two on Zoom.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I love that comparison who you are for six
weeks as opposed to an hour onZoom.
That happens for sure inromantic relationships,
especially if they're longdistance, because seeing someone
for a few days can feel veryvacation-y, honeymoon-y, right.
Versus being with someone dayin, day out or having them
really close by being 20 minutesfrom someone or seeing them,
(24:06):
living with them very differentthan just this once in a while
sort of we see each other fordinner or Zoom for an hour,
dinner for an hour and a halfevery month, or it's not the
same right.
And I love how this isorganically going to
relationships and the conditionsof the friendship, whether it's
(24:27):
long distance or in person.
If it's an hour, three hours aweekend, right.
Because another section of thebook she talks about situational
friendships, friendships thatarise due to a shared
circumstance, like coworkers,classmates or neighbors.
These connections may fade whenthe situation changes, and
(24:48):
Brenda's talking about when orin her circumstance here in this
example.
She flew to California andmeets with them once a week but
actually spent time and spaceand got to see them in person
and everybody gets to be witheach other, with their
imperfections.
But how about when that's notthe case?
You change jobs or, potentially, you were part of this women's
(25:11):
group or program, or maybe youwere part of a 12 step and
you're not going to that 12 stepanymore.
You're going to a new 12 step,or you're going to a different
location, or you move fromlocation to online.
These situations, like thecircumstances, do change the
relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yes, they truly do.
But what I want to say aboutsituational friendships is how
great they are.
They are the best I taught for22 years.
So a lot of those would fallinto this category and it did
have really good friends and ourkids were friends and our
spouses were friends and wewould go out and we would go to
(25:47):
parties together and blah, blah,blah all of that.
I don't do that anymore withthose people, um, but technology
makes it so that we can connecton Facebook, which is really
great, and have a lot of lovefor these people we taught
together for 22 years.
I have so many memories of thefriendships that I had.
(26:07):
I'm going to give this greatexample.
This is really one of myfavorites.
It ties in a couple of things.
Okay, remember Seinfeld?
Did you watch Seinfeld,catherine?
Okay, she's saying yes.
So when Seinfeld was actually onTV the days before things were
live streamed, it was on Tuesdaynight.
I think it was nine o'clock atnight.
Every Wednesday morning was thebest day of work.
(26:29):
We would go in and we wouldtalk about Seinfeld and it was
all live.
Everybody watched it live andwe would talk about it.
We would have lunch and wewould talk about Seinfeld and we
would laugh at the jokes andlike unpack the episode and we
created this.
These fun friendships at work.
(26:49):
That was the best.
And how fun is it to complainabout work with people Like
you're in this shared situation,the shared environment, and
only you know about it and youknow all the ins and outs and
the dysfunctions and who's thisand who's that, and it is fun to
(27:09):
chit chat about that.
I don't know what that is, whatkind of friendship that really
is.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
It's just based on the moment it might be moving
into trauma bonded, I think so.
Trauma bonded friendships arerelationships that form due to
shared difficult experiences.
So, whether it's work, or youhave a particular relationship
and you speak to other womenthat fall into that relationship
(27:38):
or other men that have similarrelationships like that, so it's
shared difficult experienceswhere the bond is rooted more in
the mutual pain than in mutualgrowth.
Right, so it could be.
I'm thinking about things thatwomen talk about.
Oh, for petite women.
Oh, I can never find a dressthat I don't have to hem, or
(28:00):
pants I don't have to hem.
Or, oh, I'm getting my period.
I never have a pain-free period.
Or, oh, you know, I'm going todo some bad ones.
Or I don't know if they're bad.
Ooh, the internet, I'm about tosay something.
Or when women talk aboutpotentially getting a yeast
infection post-sex or havingUTIs post-sex.
These are things that we talkabout and bond around that are
(28:23):
not the most enjoyableconversations.
But you are experiencing anannoying something maybe it's
PMS or something like it and youwant to talk about how it's
helped.
Yeah, and I think it's how youtalk about it and you want to
talk about how it's held.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah, and I think it's how you talk about it
depends if it falls into thiscategory, because you can
certainly talk about any ofthose topics that you just
mentioned and just run yourenergy and collude, or really
talk about something and reallygetting to the heart of it and
(29:01):
have some openings and potentialresolution around it, and
receiving each other's wisdomand telling the truth and
sharing from a vulnerable place,I think is very different than
just colluding about it.
I had a friendship, a very longfriendship, that really at the
end it was completely based ontrauma bonding.
(29:22):
It grew over time and we wouldmostly call each other to
complain about our husbands andonly find each other right
Always, finding the husband wasalways wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I love that you were always right.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I mean, I look back now and I'm like, wow, I really
could have used some reflectionand truth back then.
But she couldn't give it to mebecause she was in her own
trauma with her own husband,like we were both really.
You know ACA, adult children ofalcoholics and dysfunctional
families running our patterns somuch, not able to see our own
(30:02):
wounding, blaming everything onour husbands and feeling
victimized by it and then goingto each other to just talk about
that and validate our feelingsand it's very validating to have
someone who's also has sometrauma in a situation.
Just validate you and hey,maybe that's part of the process
(30:24):
that led to healing.
The other thing that womenreally complain about is their
kids.
I talk about this a lot the busstop conversation.
The women are complaining abouttheir kids or they're
complaining about their husbandsor they're complaining about
the housework Really boring shit.
(30:44):
But it feels good in the momentand for people who are I think,
the women doing that, first ofall it's a surface level
situation where you're standingat the bus stop, maybe you don't
know what else to talk aboutand also you're probably just so
overflowing and stuffed up withall of these feelings and
(31:07):
thoughts and no outlet that thebus stop feels like a great
place to talk about it withother women who really get it.
But it is kind of traumabonding and it just like feeds
the fire.
It doesn't really help anyone,but it feels good in the moment
to have someone look at you andsay, oh yeah, I totally get it.
(31:28):
The other thing I want to sayabout that is mostly, yeah,
they're listening to each other,but there's no attention on one
person.
It's just like, oh yeah, let metell you about mine and then
somebody else tells you abouttheirs, and it's like throwing
hot potatoes around.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Nobody's really listening because everyone's so
messed up.
Well, I think it's a time totake some space, right,
everybody wants to take spaceand you're not really intending
to get to a resolution.
You're sort of like this is mypain, I'm dumping this, and then
another person gets to dump andeverybody's kind of dumping
right, and there's time andspace for that too.
(32:08):
I think.
And yeah, there just is timeand space sometimes to just dump
.
I know that now we're so muchmore sophisticated you and I,
miss Brenda, where we could belike hey, I would really like to
vent for five minutes, 10minutes.
Can you hold space?
Maybe I have withholds We'vedone episodes on that or maybe
(32:32):
there's something else that Iwould really love for you to
hold space for me.
We have more tools now for thatand I think probably
potentially I'd hope more skillin regulating ourselves so that
we don't have to use that tool.
But I think there's a time inlife where potentially, that's
(32:54):
it Like for moms.
You're just bringing upsomething that has me think
Women who have little kids andwho haven't seen an adult in
days, who haven't had an adultconversation in days, and
they're just like this is whathappened.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It's so hard and you take what you can get and if you
don't have the community or thetools or the sisterhood that
we're highlighting on thispodcast, then yeah, you're going
to unload at the bus stop andthere's nothing wrong with that.
I've done that.
There's so much more possibleis what I'm mostly trying to say
here.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Well, you have something to compare it to right
, exactly.
So you're like looking atsomething in hindsight and I
also want to point to like myGod, I mean, when I look at my
thing at my meditation days inhindsight, I'm like, wow, I
really was not available toconnect with any strangers.
I was like you are not mychosen cool person and so, no, I
(33:53):
am not talking to you aboutanything, I just would listen
and not share a damn thing.
You know, it was so culturalfor me.
I was raised in a house.
Nothing that happens in thishouse leaves this house, and
that's big conditioning.
How do I now go out into thestreets and just tell everybody
what's going on, like, no,you're not supposed to show the
(34:15):
mess right and to get to a placewhere now, yeah, I can show it,
but it's taken some time and Ireally forgive that person, that
version of me, and also knowthat it had its purpose in place
, right.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, I think everything has its purpose and
we grow along the way.
And let's just talk about thebus stop.
That can feel great, great ifthat's all you have and it's
priceless.
Let me just say that it ispriceless and even my friend
that I was talking about, that Iwould call and we would collude
priceless at the time and itwas what I was ready for at the
(34:55):
time To have someone who gets itlike oh, you're having a hard
time with your partner, withyour husband, you're having a
hard time with your kids.
This one threw up the dinner.
Nobody liked.
You know, people are complaining, nobody wants to get out on
time, people aren't going to bedto have somebody actually
understands that all have theneed to release and dump,
(35:22):
whatever you want to call it.
If we all get backed up, Idon't care who you are,
especially the world that we'reliving in right now we have far
too much information availableat our fingertips, in my opinion
, or I've experienced, and wehave emotions that build up and
feelings and thoughts and evengreat things.
It's not just negative things.
We have great things.
I have so much to share about myfour month road trip.
(35:45):
So we do get backed up at times, and we do want to let it out.
You do it how.
You know how to do it.
Maybe it's at the bus stopright, or over the water cooler
at work, and what you mentionedbefore was you and I, in
particular, have a whole bunchof tools around it.
So, even though I'm not offgassing at the bus stop anymore,
(36:08):
I have practice of withholds.
I do fear inventory and how towrite.
I have spring cleaning tools.
Sometimes I'll just ask you oranother friend to hold space for
me, but I don't want to givethe illusion that I or you don't
need to ever dump or releasethings.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
No, now we have consent.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Exactly, we have consent and tools.
Yes, yeah, because it's notgreat to just dump your vomit on
people, it's not great and itfeels great when somebody says,
hey, do what you like.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
If you message me, hey, do you have a minute?
I just need to listen.
I'm like, yeah, and thestructure provides so much
permission because, let's say,you say to me I just need you to
hear me out.
I'm like, okay, great.
You know, sometimes when we'relistening, we have that
masculine come in inside of uswhere I'm like, oh, what do I
need to fix?
Uh-oh, what if she's asking mea question?
But if I know ahead of timeyou're just venting, I'm like,
(37:12):
cool, great, yeah, shoot, doyour thing.
I'm like, all right, do youwant to say anything else?
How about now?
Anything else?
How about now?
And then it's like normallysomebody's like, oh, I'm so glad
I needed to share and hearmyself.
And I'm like I totally get it.
And actually the other day Iwas talking to Brenda.
I don't remember what I wasoff-gassing or sharing about,
(37:34):
but Brenda said to me I hear youand I see you.
And I think that was the thirdthing you said.
You said I hear you, I see you.
You said something else and Ican't tell you how delicious
that felt.
I was like, oh, she heard me,she sees me.
That was enough.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I love that.
I do remember when I said thatto you I think I said you were
seen and heard and that's a 12step thing that comes from 12
step.
So if you share in 12 step,they not always but often will
say you're seen and heard.
And it is really beautiful tobe received in that way, because
(38:13):
at the bus stop conversationsnobody's really saying that
they're just going on to theirstory because they're so backed
up that they're like oh well,let me tell you the horrible
story that happened in my houselast night with my kids or my
husband and nobody saying I seeyou and I feel you and I heard
you and then actually pausingand not coming in with your own
(38:37):
story.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
It really does make such a difference I can't say it
or stress it enough WheneverBrenda's so good at this,
whenever she says you knowyou're seen and heard, or it
just feels so good Likesomething happens in that space.
But I don't think, not, I don'tthink, I know I didn't have
(38:58):
that skill before.
So I'm giggling and laughingand it's funny that I'm like, oh
, we do it with consent now andthere's systems and tools, but
it does actually feel better.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
It does feel better and I'm really, oh, we do it
with consent now and there'ssystems and tools, but it does
actually feel better.
It does feel better and I'mreally grateful for it.
It kind of takes away the drama, and at the bus stop you
probably could get your feelingshurt because somebody wasn't
listening all the way.
As compared to if I call youand I say, hey, can you listen
to me for a couple of minutes,it's very different, and then I
(39:28):
know that you have the capacityto do it.
I also trust your yes and yourno where you might be like well,
I can't right now, but call mein three hours.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
I trust that.
There's also a piece that ifyou say to me I can't right now,
for whatever reason and we'retrusting each other in it I get
to turn somewhere else to get myneeds met.
And then I get to turn to youand say thanks so much for being
available.
I was able to like be heard andseen.
And then you know oh, myfriends handled, I didn't have
(40:00):
to do it for whatever reason,and we keep moving right.
I don't have to tell everysingle one of my friends my vent
piece right.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Exactly.
I think you're bringing up areally good point too, that we
don't have to be everything foreveryone.
We don't have to be everythingfor everyone and our friendships
don't have to fulfill all theparts of ourselves, just like
our romantic relationships arenot going to fill all the parts
of ourselves.
(40:29):
It's just not realistic, and Ithink that if we're really in
reality, then we know that, andI think the expectation that one
person is going to fulfill allof you is some old romantic
notion that really just leads todisappointment.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Yeah, I'm going to just out myself and say I think
that the times in my life whereI wanted somebody to be
everything, I was just beinglazy and I wasn't willing to
form deeper relationships withmore people.
I think that was part of it, inaddition to potentially growing
(41:08):
up feeling like I was part ofthe witness protection program,
of which I was not, but justbeing told all the time like
whatever happens here stays here, and so not being willing to
share.
And it took a long time for meto become someone that, going
from not sharing to then sharing, to then sharing so
intentionally that I because Ithink there's also a fear, right
(41:32):
, I remember at a time I don'tremember exactly when, but I can
recall touching a place, like,oh, I'm going to share this and
I hope they don't share it withsomeone else, right, like where
there's this whole privacy thing, like I want to share my
secrets and I hope nobody sharesmy secrets, right, and becoming
(41:53):
the woman that, when I share mysecrets, even though I would
like to have a certain level ofprivacy, understanding that
people are human and thatsomebody might share something
of mine and am I willing to backit, becoming the kind of person
that once something leaves mylips, I know it's left and it's
(42:16):
out there and being willing tohold the weight of that.
Becoming that woman felt a lotbetter for me than holding
someone else on a pedestal as ifthey had signed an NDA for me,
like a Madonna or something.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Madonna, I love it.
Okay, I'm going to shift gearsa little bit, because there's
two other kinds of friendshipson our list.
There's seven here that we'retalking about and people we will
review the names of them at theend, where we decided that we
would go through these in alinear fashion, but that is, of
course, not what happened at all.
So there's two more that wehaven't talked about that I do
want to touch on.
One is surface levelfriendships, so these are casual
(42:59):
acquaintances or people youinteract with in social settings
but don't form deep connectionswith.
What would you say about that,catherine?
I love these.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
I love these drive-bys.
I love that Because they'reprobably those are the moments
where I get to talk to themabout things.
It's almost like I'm thinkingof bank accounts, credit cards,
assets.
It's almost like why would Iwant to spend my deep
conversations on someone?
(43:28):
That's surface level?
I want to be able to spend mysurface level conversations on
surface level, like I want to beable to talk about that doc
series, I want to be able totalk about how hot Reacher is,
but I don't want to spend thattime on the person that I can
have deep conversations withbecause, yeah, I want to be
intentional about what I'mhaving.
So that's what comes to mindfor me.
(43:48):
I'm like, oh, casualacquaintances, yeah, I get to
talk about.
You know, what good movies haveyou seen?
Have you seen anything?
I really love comedies.
What's the last comedy that yousaw?
Or I get to talk about andshoot the crap, shoot the shit,
as they say about things that Iwouldn't normally get the chance
to, not because it's notavailable, but because I'm
(44:11):
spending my relationship coinswisely.
You have relationship coins.
Yes, I get to cash in my chips.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
I love that.
That's so good.
I love how much joy andapproval you put on surface
level friendships, because youcould have a judgment about that
.
Oh, surface level oh, I lovethat, it's great.
It's so great.
There's so much joy in that.
This is one thing I loved aboutmy grandmother she would talk
to everybody, no matter where wewent.
(44:41):
My grandmother was havingconversation the grocery line,
you know the hair salon.
Mother was having aconversation the grocery line,
you know the hair salon, thestore, the playground,
everywhere, and you just talk topeople about whatever it's in
the moment and it's reallylovely.
(45:06):
I think that's where magic canhappen and that's kind of where
we're meeting life on life'sterms.
It's like here I am in thegrocery store, can you just talk
to somebody?
Or if somebody's talking to you, right, are you talking to them
back, and you may or may not beavailable for that.
Sometimes I don't want to dothat.
Sometimes I'm like don't talkto me, and other times I'm like
(45:29):
oh yeah, I'm really reallyavailable and juicy for a
conversation with a strangerright now.
I had this recently.
I took a friend for a medicalprocedure when I was in
California and I had a couple ofhours to wait and this person
just sat down at my table whereI was eating lunch and said, oh,
can I sit here?
And I checked in with myselfand I thought, yeah.
(45:50):
And he started talking to meand we just had this really nice
conversation for a while and Ireally enjoyed it.
It wasn't going to be any morethan just surface level
conversation and then I reacheda point where I felt complete
and I told him I was going toget back to my work and that was
it.
It was really enjoyable.
I want to be available for thatkind of thing in my life.
(46:11):
I want to be like mygrandmother where I could just
talk to anybody about anything.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Totally, I want to be able to talk about, to talk
about why is this not coming out?
I also want to be able to talkto anybody about anything like,
just not feel restricted.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Totally All right.
Last one Ready One-sidedfriendships, friendships where
one person puts in significantlymore effort than the other,
often leading to feelings ofimbalance or frustration.
This is a really good one,because clearly there's
(46:52):
something that's not alignedright.
There's someone who wants moreand someone who's not available
and not exactly communicating it.
It feels like both people areprobably not communicating it.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
I have a lot of experience with this one.
I would say, okay, I'm going toread it again Friendships,
where one person puts insignificantly more effort than
the other.
I would say that has been me,often leading to feelings of
imbalance or frustration.
I can't say that I really feelimbalance or frustration anymore
(47:25):
.
I probably this is like abigger topic, but I'm not even
sure if we've done an episode onthe victim triangle but
triangle.
But I would consider myselflike the rescuer position where
somebody would talk and I wantto be there or want to listen or
want to help or offer advice,something like that.
And in my twenties I think I hadmore experiences of imbalance
(47:47):
or frustration and over theyears I've been able to sort of
not do that or, if I'm doing, itbe a lot more intentional.
So I'll check in with myselfand say somebody will be telling
me their thing.
They're usually not availablefor me to tell them my thing and
, in all honesty, normally thatperson also doesn't have the
(48:11):
capacity to give me the kind ofsight that I would want if I
were to share my thing.
So it's one-sided.
I'm aware I'm putting in moreeffort and usually it's someone
who I really love or care for,or it's a stranger and they're
just talking to me aboutsomething that I potentially
have a lot of experience orjuice in, and I check in with
(48:34):
myself and I'm willing to shareof my and it's sort of like in
my zone of genius, so I'mwilling.
So, yeah, I have someexperience there.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, my experience with thisis it's not exactly this, but
it's actually something that I'mgrateful for, where one person
is really good at pursuing thefriendship.
I've had a couple offriendships where people are
just really good at pursuing thefriendship and saying, hey, do
(49:06):
you want to get together?
Do you want to get together?
I don't always think of that.
I mean I do.
I do more now, but when I thinkback to past relationships,
there's a couple of times wherewomen have been like hey, do you
want to get together?
Like I have one really goodfriends when my kids were little
and she always would want tohave play dates with the kids
and and we would get together.
(49:27):
And we got together everyTuesday afternoon after work.
She was a teacher also andevery Tuesday, one week I would
go to her house and one week shewould go to my house.
That was all her.
That was all her desire, herignition, her being willing to
initiate it.
And I met her there.
I loved it.
I loved receiving herinvitations and we had this
(49:48):
beautiful friendships and ourkids were friends for many, many
years.
So that could fall into that alittle bit.
But also we matched funds, likeI responded to her and I
reacted to her and I met herthere.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Yeah, I would say I also have been that friend for
some of my friends.
I tend to have some closefriends, so if you are listening
, uh, that they'll be goingthrough some things and I'm like
, hey, do you want to go tobrunch, you want to go to lunch,
you want to get together, youwant to go for a walk?
You want to, and they don'twant to meet me in that location
(50:24):
, um, because maybe they don'twant to be seen or heard there,
because it's very confrontingand I've learned to not take
that personally.
It's not really about me, andso I'll continue to extend the
invitation for whenever they'reavailable to say, yes, love that
.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Just giving an invitation for somebody to say
yes, that's really good.
Just giving an invitation forsomebody to say yes, it's really
good.
We've actually touched all ofthese seven types of
relationships that Lane Moorediscusses in this book.
You Will Find your People.
But go read it In fulldisclosure.
Catherine and I have not readthe book.
It was just a friend of minewho shared that she was reading
(51:04):
the book and reallyinvestigating the relationships
in her life and really seeingwho falls into what category,
for the purpose of not havingdisappointment in your
friendships, not expectingpeople to show up in a certain
way that you really want whenthey're in a different category,
(51:25):
and so I was really inspired bythat.
So I'm going to read thesetypes of friendships.
We'll put these in the shownotes as well.
We have surface levelfriendships, situational
friendships, trauma bondedfriendships, one-sided
friendships, one-sidedfriendships, long distance
(51:54):
friendships, chosen family andsoul friendships, and all of
these have so much to offer intheir own way, and we may go in
and out of these at differentpoints in our life.
They all serve something in usthat we need and want at the
time, and when we want somethingdifferent, we would go after
that.
We might pursue that.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
The biggest piece for me, why I really wanted us to
talk about this.
My intention was I thought itwas so cool that somebody
actually broke it down in thisway, like how cool to make a
book about that, to write a bookabout that, about it, how cool
to look at the differentcategories of friendships and
maybe there are others thatother people have.
Please write in, let us know.
(52:35):
How do you categorize your ownfriendships or, if at all,
beyond above all things, I just,in sisterhood, think that
there's so much possible and Ireally hope that this episode
kind of opens that door evenwider for possibility.
Thank you so much, everyone fortuning in to today's episode.
(52:57):
We loved having you.
We'd love hearing what you haveto say.
So continue to DM us and writereviews on Apple.
Yeah, write reviews on Apple,we'd love it Until next time.
Bye for now.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast
(53:20):
Desire invites us to be honest,loving and deeply intimate with
ourselves and others.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back family and friends.
Oh, it's been so wonderful tojust meet up with the lovely
(01:34):
Brenda.
She is here, as always, lookingfabulous and just always
backing our desire to record andbe of service.
We have had, or I have had, wehaven't had, I have had a few
tech issues, so hopefully todaywill be as smooth as can be, but
we just don't know.
So we are at it, doing our bestwith what we have, and that
seems to be a theme thatcontinues to pop up for me.
(01:56):
I am just doing the best I canwith what I have, and if I look
back, I'm still saying to myselfoh yeah, back there, I just
that version of me did the bestshe could with what she had, and
I want to invite you all to dothe same With that in mind in
here, doing our best.
(02:16):
When we started to hit the 80sin recordings on the Desire as
Medicine podcast, Brenda and I,we were talking about like how
can we be people that people arehonest with, Like how can we be
a safe place to really hearhonesty?
Then we had this lovely episodewhere I was crying and we
(02:39):
talked about spinning and whatit feels like to just be
reveling in your story, feelinglike queen, victim of whatever's
occurring and how life is justhappening to you, et cetera, et
cetera.
And we landed on this gorgeousplace of sisterhood and the
power of high-level relating.
That would be episode 82.
And we just explored honesty,because honesty really makes
(03:03):
sisterhood so much juicier.
Who wants to be relating withanother human?
That is just not being 100%transparent.
It's possible.
It's just not as enjoyable.
And when we think aboutpossibility we also covered that
(03:33):
in 84, talked about possibilityand how amazing it is to see
someone else show us something.
That would just blow our minds.
Recently I heard someone talkingabout a different coach.
I'm in a course and she saidthis phrase like I've definitely
straddled and made sure that Idon't overwork.
I've had an area of time in mylife where I really experienced
burnout.
And she posed this question oflike were you really physically
(03:53):
burnt out or were you justexhausted by the thoughts you
were having?
Were you exhausted by thefeelings you were having?
And just in that conversation.
It opened up so muchpossibility for me.
So much is available to us whenwe are just in conversation
with what's real, with what's inthe room, and you just don't
(04:15):
know how big of an impact youhave on another human.
And not every conversation hasto take us to the other side of
transformation, where you're onthe floor, guts open, saying you
just changed my life.
Sometimes I'm having aconversation about.
Right now I'm watching theseries on television.
(04:35):
It's called Doc.
I find it super fascinatingbecause it's about a doctor who
loses her memory because she wasin an accident.
It's about a doctor who losesher memory because she was in an
accident.
I don't have to go into all thedetails, but I can chat with
somebody about something likethat or talk about Reacher how
hot he is, and like there'sanother season of that on Prime.
Like not every conversation hasto be like oh, my goodness, I
(04:58):
wasn't burnt out, I was actuallyhating my emotions.
Like not every conversationthat I have with another human
has to open all the doors in theback of my heart or shoot me to
the point that I'm just likecrying at tears and like
Brenda's saying thank God,Brenda, go ahead, Come on, this
is what we're talking abouttoday.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, thank God.
Thank God every conversationisn't going to open up the very
back of our heart.
That's not even realistic.
Sometimes it's great to justtalk about what we're watching
on TV or the weather.
The weather could be really funto talk about.
A friend of mine said,depending on who you're talking
about, talking about the weathercould be different kinds of
(05:39):
conversation, like there's evenmany levels to just that.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yes, there is so much there.
I mean so much so that Brendaand I were talking about this
the other day and she mentionedthis book I don't know if you
happy listeners know it.
It's called you Will Find yourPeople by Elaine Moore, and she
definitely explores differenttypes of relationships.
Brenda and I were like we wantto talk about this, especially
(06:05):
on the Sisterhood series,because the ultimate goal isn't
to have deep conversations 360all around in your life.
It's just not possible.
Just like you can't have anamazing day every single day or
be in the best mood Right nowI'm giggling just thinking about
a woman's body and her menses.
(06:27):
Like when are we exactly in thebest of moods all the time?
It's just not feasible, right.
Like some of it is gonna besuper yum in life and some of it
is gonna just suck.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Also, if we're talking about real life, we're
not ever in the same place allthe time.
Nothing is ever the same and wetalk about that a lot on this
podcast, about how, if we'reliving in the rhythm of nature,
we are always in change andwe're experiencing life in many
different facets.
And if we expect things toalways be the same, so if we
(07:01):
expect, say, deep conversationswherever we go, we're kind of
missing out.
I love deep conversations thoseare my favorite where you just
get into that deep heart spaceand there's like that connection
and there's an actual energythat's present.
It just feels so good and youfeel like you're touching each
other's souls and you rememberit forever.
(07:22):
But it can't always be likethat.
So this book you Will Find yourPeople by Lane Moore a friend of
mine actually was reading itbecause she was exploring
friendship and she was tellingme about how she was looking at
friendship and her sisterhood inher life to have more of what
she actually wants, and I justloved her approach.
I think we've all experienceddifferent kinds of friendships.
(07:44):
Loved her approach.
I think we've all experienceddifferent kinds of friendships,
but have we really sat down anddefined them?
Like, what are the differentkinds of friendships.
I think we all have heard thephrase we have relationships for
a reason, a season or alifetime, and that's really true
.
And what I love about this isthat she goes in even deeper.
(08:08):
And so Catherine and I thoughtlet's explore this.
You know, we're over heretalking about sisterhood for a
couple of episodes and reallytalking about what's possible,
and Catherine and I do have asoul friendship, and I have a
lot of soul friendships in mylife where I feel truly seen,
where I can really be myself andI can mess up and be honest.
(08:31):
They're transformative.
These are soul relationships,but they're not all like that
and that's not a bad thing.
I think we could just beneutral and, like you said,
Catherine, in reality, with whatsomething is, can we just meet
it for what it is?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yes, there's so much breath there.
It's like can I just be withwhat is what's real, not have to
transform it or change it, andwe can start like in the book.
Lane has a section for soulfriendships and she talks about
(09:10):
it as rare, deep connectionswhere you feel truly seen,
understood and accepted for whoyou are.
These friendships can belifelong and transformative, as
Brenda said.
But not every relationship isgoing to be a soul friendship
and I'm just going to speak frommy own experience.
I understand the desire for it.
I remember going to differentevents or retreats.
(09:32):
I would go away for three, fourdays and I would say to myself
this this is what I want.
I want every relationship to bethis way.
And I remember I think it was2015, I was leaving a particular
coaches event.
And I remember, I think it was2015, I was leaving a particular
coaches event.
I was in maybe Arizona, sedona,I don't know somewhere over
there where it's very warm, andI'm looking at all the cactuses
(09:56):
and desert grass and I said tomyself I want this forever.
I want this.
How do I have this be part ofmy everyday living?
It's the best way to describeit now, in hindsight, in 2025,
it's been 10 years is that I wasreally hungry for that sort of
relating right.
(10:16):
What comes up for you, brenda,around soul friendships.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I was so hungry for it, just like you said, I wanted
it so badly and I didn't knowhow to have it.
I had it in a couple of placesin my life or, like I said
before, like you could touch onit, like that feeling.
Usually it happens maybe it'ssleepovers when you're a kid, or
even an adult, like late atnight when everything's done and
(10:41):
there's nothing left to do,when you've stayed at dinner way
too long and it's the bestthing ever.
I really wanted that and Ireally tried to create it in my
life and there were moments thatI created it, but it wasn't
really until I dove into my ownpersonal transformation and put
(11:03):
myself into rooms with otherpeople who really wanted that
kind of connection that I reallystarted having it.
And I would say now, 17 yearslater, I have that every day.
I have that every day in myrelationships and also I am that
like I'm able to go really deep, I'm able to hold good space
(11:26):
for people, I'm able to tell thetruth, I'm able to receive
truths and all of those things.
So I embody that right now andI also have all the other kinds
of friendships as well andthey're wonderful.
But going back to what you said, being hungry for it.
I think that we really do allwant these deep soul friendships
(11:47):
, and we don't always know howto get it.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
And I want to say that for anybody listening.
If you don't want it, that'sokay too.
Like I understand that I thinkthere was a time where people
would ask me really deepquestions.
I want to say in my 20spotentially, because I was
really big on like meditationand being still and stillness
(12:12):
and a lot of my retreats orevents they were sort of like
that.
So a lot of Tai Chi, qigong andstillness and heart opening
exercises, but it wasn't a lotof talking or conversation.
It wasn't that style.
I wasn't in those rooms and ifsomebody was poking around too
much I was like why are peoplepoking around?
And by poking around I meanlike asking really deep
(12:34):
questions when I felt like, oh,this came out of nowhere, why is
this person asking me thisperson?
I had this like hierarchy atthat time of you and I are not
that cool.
You'd be asking me thesequestions and that could just be
the New Yorker in me.
I'm like you don't need to knowall that.
There's this background in NewYork I think when you were from
(12:55):
the city, this Italianbackground of you.
Don't ask people really deepquestions because, like,
whatever they want you to know,they tell you.
So you're not digging in thereunless you're cool.
It's like so I would you toknow.
They tell you.
So you're not digging in thereunless you're cool.
So I would say to myself doesthis person think that we're
really cool like that thatthey're asking me these
questions?
But now I could be with acomplete stranger who asked me
something that's super deep andthere's a really high percentage
(13:17):
that I'll answer it, because Idon't have the same level of
safety requirement aroundsecrets.
Right, I see Brenda's eyeswidening.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, Now that's beautiful the way you said that,
but I want to go back to whatyou said.
Not everybody wants that kindof friendship.
I'm so glad you said that.
Here I am over here saying weall want that.
I think a lot of people reallydo want that and I would even
argue that deep down beloweveryone's hurt and wounding and
(13:53):
traumas, that they really dowant that.
I think that we really arebuilt for that.
But of course, with people,people can get hurt easily.
They've been burned in the past, they've had bad experience,
whatever kind of trauma it isthat you're carrying in the
world, or karma from your pastlives, if you believe in that.
Some people just don't want tobe bothered because it's too
(14:15):
much effort or it hurts too muchor it could be expensive to
yourself, and so maybe theydon't want that.
So I'm my mind over here is alittle blown.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
You know what's coming up for me.
It's sort of like when you sayeverybody wants it, it's
possible.
But I think there's a questionthat we can ask ourselves Are we
ready for it?
Right, yeah, like is the person.
Like, was I in my early 20sready to just expose my heart
myself to anyone?
(14:48):
No, I wasn't in that space.
Now I can hold myself there, Ican regulate my own nervous
system, I can talk about reallytough things.
I mean, I was just talking toBrenda about this not that long
ago.
I didn't like to cry, even onZoom, I wanted to mute myself.
Now I can record an episodewhere I start the episode crying
(15:10):
.
It's range, right, it'scapacity.
So, yes, brenda, I think that,yes, mind blown.
And are we ready?
There's other factors in soulfriendships, like am I ready for
it?
Are you ready for it?
Can you hold and regulate yournervous system in it?
Because when you share aboutsomething that was really
painful or you go to a reallydeep place, it's emotional.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It is and it's vulnerable.
It's really vulnerable and whenyou're vulnerable, there's the
possibility of getting hurt.
As we grow and learn and wehave these experiences over time
and, like you said, if youreally want it, if you really
want it, you're going to learnhow to be the person who can
have it, and I think that takesa lifetime, maybe I don't know a
(16:00):
lifetime, if that's accurate.
I don't know.
I don't know the answer.
It's different for everybody.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
But I think that we build our capacity over time.
So you said in your 20s youweren't maybe able to go to the
places that you can go to now.
I certainly couldn't.
But did I have deeprelationships and friendships?
Yeah, I did.
I got married in my 20s,twenties and we did go deep.
(16:30):
We had a soul deep relationship.
I don't know what I would thinkof that now if I was in it.
I don't know.
But when I was in my twentiesit was great.
But it does change over timeand I think we change over time
and we grow and what we want andwhat we feel is possible
changes over time 100%, and Ialso want to say that I probably
had a more tier system than youdid in my 20s.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yes, there were people that I would go close
with, but it wasn't everyone.
My circle was a lot smaller.
My availability was a lotsmaller than what it is now.
I think now I have a lot morecapacity for it, and I would say
that part of it is, yes, Idon't want to get hurt.
Another part is just sort ofboundaried and range, sort of
(17:18):
really choosing when and whereand with whom, being very
intentional about who getsaccess.
I think we've talked about thattoo in the past, right, brenda,
when there is capacity forsomething, right.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Totally.
I mean there's times in ourlife where we have capacity and
space for a lot of deepconnection.
For instance, I was just inCalifornia for six weeks with a
bunch of women.
I went to this specific town inNorthern California because I
have friends there and it wasfriendship every day.
It was like getting togetherwith women and co-working and
(17:53):
dinners and going out and events.
Oh my goodness, it blew my mindwith what's possible.
It was wonderful and I had thespace for it.
I mean, I intentionally createdthe space for it and also I had
to expand into that.
The first few days that I gotthere I was seeing friends every
day and then I was suddenlyexhausted and I realized, oh,
(18:16):
this is a really important pieceof desire is that when we have
our desire and I have a desireto have close women friendships
in person and here I was havingit every day but when we have
our desire, we do have to buildour capacity for it.
And I didn't have the capacityfor it because my relationships
(18:36):
on the East Coast actually looka little bit different.
I'm not with women every day,like you, and I connect over
Zoom Hopefully we'll see eachother tomorrow but I see my
friends in person, but not everyday.
No way, it's just the way it isaround here it just doesn't
happen.
So I had to build up mycapacity to have it, because I
(18:58):
was tired at first I had aheadache.
I'm like, wow, I need a littlebreak here to rest, to give my
body space to integrate mydesire to be with women and
actually have the space in mybody to have it get anywhere.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It doesn't matter where you're going, it takes an
hour.
It could be 10 miles, like onemile, it's taking an hour.
It's a bigger city, more people, more congestion.
So yes, there's otherparameters that we're working
(19:33):
with in this arena or this area,this location, that maybe other
cities don't have to deal.
But I love that you had that, Ilove that you had that time.
And I mean there's anothercategory here.
It's almost like Brenda'sexperience could fall into two
friendship categories One, longdistance friendships, because
she's talking about California.
She visited there and it's thelong distance friendship
(19:55):
Friendships.
Plural is friends who remainclose despite physical distance,
relying on text messages, callsor visits to maintain the bond.
And a little bit of acombination here, because
potentially some of thesefriends that brenda's talking
about she's going to let us knowsoon could be chosen family,
like deep, meaningfulfriendships that feel more, feel
(20:16):
more like family, offering theemotional support and
unconditional love that may bemissing from biological family
relationships.
And I just want to tag here thatI don't know how many
biological families have support, emotional support and
unconditional love.
I know that it's something thatpeople want and people talk
(20:37):
about.
I often hear, oh, my familydoesn't, and I'm like whose
family does.
Where is this Brady Bunchreality?
Who lives that life?
I know very few people thathave it.
I feel as though, no matter ourconditions, there's a certain
level of potential dysfunctionor discomfort or challenge.
(21:02):
Right, brenda, what comes upfor you when I talk to you about
your long distance, aka chosenfamily?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I love that.
It's really interesting.
When I was looking at this list, at this long distance
friendships, I thought, oh yeah,this, this group of people they
are.
They feel like chosen familyand soul friendships.
They are also long distancefriendships and two of the women
that I went to visit inCalifornia I've been in a
women's group with them once aweek since 2019 or 2018.
(21:32):
We meet once a week for allthese years and so we've gotten
really close and we've seen eachother through a lot of highs
and lows and we've really beenthere for each other, sharing on
Zoom our deepest.
Everything it's possible tomaintain friendships like that
(21:53):
over technology makes itpossible to be really deep.
So I want to be with thesepeople in real life.
So I got myself to California.
I mean, we had a whole roadtrip around it and I was there
for six weeks and one of thethings I was really thoughtful
about because I've had longdistance relationships before so
(22:15):
this is different.
It's long distance friendships,but some of the dynamics could
be the same, where you could endup going into fantasy about who
these people really are, andbeing in person is different.
It just is different.
So I was very mindful to noticeany fantasy or any way that I
(22:37):
put these people on a pedestaljust to notice.
Is this happening?
Are they so amazing and likenobody around here is so amazing
?
Because that would be a redflag.
I didn't think that, but I wasjust very mindful of noticing
any time I would potentiallyfall into that.
And it is different if you areseeing people over Zoom and
(23:01):
texting versus being with themin person.
You know, people are people andwe do our people things and
people get tired, they get, theyhave feelings, and so
interacting with someone inperson is quite different and it
did create space for that,which I'm grateful for.
And then also the beautifulthing about it is that you get
(23:26):
to be with people for who theyreally are and show yourself for
who you are.
You know, like some of my ownimperfections came out because
I'm there for six weeks.
It's very different than who Iam for an hour or two on Zoom.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I love that comparison who you are for six
weeks as opposed to an hour onZoom.
That happens for sure inromantic relationships,
especially if they're longdistance, because seeing someone
for a few days can feel veryvacation-y, honeymoon-y, right.
Versus being with someone dayin, day out or having them
really close by being 20 minutesfrom someone or seeing them,
(24:06):
living with them very differentthan just this once in a while
sort of we see each other fordinner or Zoom for an hour,
dinner for an hour and a halfevery month, or it's not the
same right.
And I love how this isorganically going to
relationships and the conditionsof the friendship, whether it's
(24:27):
long distance or in person.
If it's an hour, three hours aweekend, right.
Because another section of thebook she talks about situational
friendships, friendships thatarise due to a shared
circumstance, like coworkers,classmates or neighbors.
These connections may fade whenthe situation changes, and
(24:48):
Brenda's talking about when orin her circumstance here in this
example.
She flew to California andmeets with them once a week but
actually spent time and spaceand got to see them in person
and everybody gets to be witheach other, with their
imperfections.
But how about when that's notthe case?
You change jobs or, potentially, you were part of this women's
(25:11):
group or program, or maybe youwere part of a 12 step and
you're not going to that 12 stepanymore.
You're going to a new 12 step,or you're going to a different
location, or you move fromlocation to online.
These situations, like thecircumstances, do change the
relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yes, they truly do.
But what I want to say aboutsituational friendships is how
great they are.
They are the best I taught for22 years.
So a lot of those would fallinto this category and it did
have really good friends and ourkids were friends and our
spouses were friends and wewould go out and we would go to
(25:47):
parties together and blah, blah,blah all of that.
I don't do that anymore withthose people, um, but technology
makes it so that we can connecton Facebook, which is really
great, and have a lot of lovefor these people we taught
together for 22 years.
I have so many memories of thefriendships that I had.
(26:07):
I'm going to give this greatexample.
This is really one of myfavorites.
It ties in a couple of things.
Okay, remember Seinfeld?
Did you watch Seinfeld,catherine?
Okay, she's saying yes.
So when Seinfeld was actually onTV the days before things were
live streamed, it was on Tuesdaynight.
I think it was nine o'clock atnight.
Every Wednesday morning was thebest day of work.
(26:29):
We would go in and we wouldtalk about Seinfeld and it was
all live.
Everybody watched it live andwe would talk about it.
We would have lunch and wewould talk about Seinfeld and we
would laugh at the jokes andlike unpack the episode and we
created this.
These fun friendships at work.
(26:49):
That was the best.
And how fun is it to complainabout work with people Like
you're in this shared situation,the shared environment, and
only you know about it and youknow all the ins and outs and
the dysfunctions and who's thisand who's that, and it is fun to
(27:09):
chit chat about that.
I don't know what that is, whatkind of friendship that really
is.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
It's just based on the moment it might be moving
into trauma bonded, I think so.
Trauma bonded friendships arerelationships that form due to
shared difficult experiences.
So, whether it's work, or youhave a particular relationship
and you speak to other womenthat fall into that relationship
(27:38):
or other men that have similarrelationships like that, so it's
shared difficult experienceswhere the bond is rooted more in
the mutual pain than in mutualgrowth.
Right, so it could be.
I'm thinking about things thatwomen talk about.
Oh, for petite women.
Oh, I can never find a dressthat I don't have to hem, or
(28:00):
pants I don't have to hem.
Or, oh, I'm getting my period.
I never have a pain-free period.
Or, oh, you know, I'm going todo some bad ones.
Or I don't know if they're bad.
Ooh, the internet, I'm about tosay something.
Or when women talk aboutpotentially getting a yeast
infection post-sex or havingUTIs post-sex.
These are things that we talkabout and bond around that are
(28:23):
not the most enjoyableconversations.
But you are experiencing anannoying something maybe it's
PMS or something like it and youwant to talk about how it's
helped.
Yeah, and I think it's how youtalk about it and you want to
talk about how it's held.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah, and I think it's how you talk about it
depends if it falls into thiscategory, because you can
certainly talk about any ofthose topics that you just
mentioned and just run yourenergy and collude, or really
talk about something and reallygetting to the heart of it and
(29:01):
have some openings and potentialresolution around it, and
receiving each other's wisdomand telling the truth and
sharing from a vulnerable place,I think is very different than
just colluding about it.
I had a friendship, a very longfriendship, that really at the
end it was completely based ontrauma bonding.
(29:22):
It grew over time and we wouldmostly call each other to
complain about our husbands andonly find each other right
Always, finding the husband wasalways wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I love that you were always right.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I mean, I look back now and I'm like, wow, I really
could have used some reflectionand truth back then.
But she couldn't give it to mebecause she was in her own
trauma with her own husband,like we were both really.
You know ACA, adult children ofalcoholics and dysfunctional
families running our patterns somuch, not able to see our own
(30:02):
wounding, blaming everything onour husbands and feeling
victimized by it and then goingto each other to just talk about
that and validate our feelingsand it's very validating to have
someone who's also has sometrauma in a situation.
Just validate you and hey,maybe that's part of the process
(30:24):
that led to healing.
The other thing that womenreally complain about is their
kids.
I talk about this a lot the busstop conversation.
The women are complaining abouttheir kids or they're
complaining about their husbandsor they're complaining about
the housework Really boring shit.
(30:44):
But it feels good in the momentand for people who are I think,
the women doing that, first ofall it's a surface level
situation where you're standingat the bus stop, maybe you don't
know what else to talk aboutand also you're probably just so
overflowing and stuffed up withall of these feelings and
(31:07):
thoughts and no outlet that thebus stop feels like a great
place to talk about it withother women who really get it.
But it is kind of traumabonding and it just like feeds
the fire.
It doesn't really help anyone,but it feels good in the moment
to have someone look at you andsay, oh yeah, I totally get it.
(31:28):
The other thing I want to sayabout that is mostly, yeah,
they're listening to each other,but there's no attention on one
person.
It's just like, oh yeah, let metell you about mine and then
somebody else tells you abouttheirs, and it's like throwing
hot potatoes around.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Nobody's really listening because everyone's so
messed up.
Well, I think it's a time totake some space, right,
everybody wants to take spaceand you're not really intending
to get to a resolution.
You're sort of like this is mypain, I'm dumping this, and then
another person gets to dump andeverybody's kind of dumping
right, and there's time andspace for that too.
(32:08):
I think.
And yeah, there just is timeand space sometimes to just dump
.
I know that now we're so muchmore sophisticated you and I,
miss Brenda, where we could belike hey, I would really like to
vent for five minutes, 10minutes.
Can you hold space?
Maybe I have withholds We'vedone episodes on that or maybe
(32:32):
there's something else that Iwould really love for you to
hold space for me.
We have more tools now for thatand I think probably
potentially I'd hope more skillin regulating ourselves so that
we don't have to use that tool.
But I think there's a time inlife where potentially, that's
(32:54):
it Like for moms.
You're just bringing upsomething that has me think
Women who have little kids andwho haven't seen an adult in
days, who haven't had an adultconversation in days, and
they're just like this is whathappened.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It's so hard and you take what you can get and if you
don't have the community or thetools or the sisterhood that
we're highlighting on thispodcast, then yeah, you're going
to unload at the bus stop andthere's nothing wrong with that.
I've done that.
There's so much more possibleis what I'm mostly trying to say
here.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Well, you have something to compare it to right
, exactly.
So you're like looking atsomething in hindsight and I
also want to point to like myGod, I mean, when I look at my
thing at my meditation days inhindsight, I'm like, wow, I
really was not available toconnect with any strangers.
I was like you are not mychosen cool person and so, no, I
(33:53):
am not talking to you aboutanything, I just would listen
and not share a damn thing.
You know, it was so culturalfor me.
I was raised in a house.
Nothing that happens in thishouse leaves this house, and
that's big conditioning.
How do I now go out into thestreets and just tell everybody
what's going on, like, no,you're not supposed to show the
(34:15):
mess right and to get to a placewhere now, yeah, I can show it,
but it's taken some time and Ireally forgive that person, that
version of me, and also knowthat it had its purpose in place
, right.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, I think everything has its purpose and
we grow along the way.
And let's just talk about thebus stop.
That can feel great, great ifthat's all you have and it's
priceless.
Let me just say that it ispriceless and even my friend
that I was talking about, that Iwould call and we would collude
priceless at the time and itwas what I was ready for at the
(34:55):
time To have someone who gets itlike oh, you're having a hard
time with your partner, withyour husband, you're having a
hard time with your kids.
This one threw up the dinner.
Nobody liked.
You know, people are complaining, nobody wants to get out on
time, people aren't going to bedto have somebody actually
understands that all have theneed to release and dump,
(35:22):
whatever you want to call it.
If we all get backed up, Idon't care who you are,
especially the world that we'reliving in right now we have far
too much information availableat our fingertips, in my opinion
, or I've experienced, and wehave emotions that build up and
feelings and thoughts and evengreat things.
It's not just negative things.
We have great things.
I have so much to share about myfour month road trip.
(35:45):
So we do get backed up at times, and we do want to let it out.
You do it how.
You know how to do it.
Maybe it's at the bus stopright, or over the water cooler
at work, and what you mentionedbefore was you and I, in
particular, have a whole bunchof tools around it.
So, even though I'm not offgassing at the bus stop anymore,
(36:08):
I have practice of withholds.
I do fear inventory and how towrite.
I have spring cleaning tools.
Sometimes I'll just ask you oranother friend to hold space for
me, but I don't want to givethe illusion that I or you don't
need to ever dump or releasethings.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
No, now we have consent.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Exactly, we have consent and tools.
Yes, yeah, because it's notgreat to just dump your vomit on
people, it's not great and itfeels great when somebody says,
hey, do what you like.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
If you message me, hey, do you have a minute?
I just need to listen.
I'm like, yeah, and thestructure provides so much
permission because, let's say,you say to me I just need you to
hear me out.
I'm like, okay, great.
You know, sometimes when we'relistening, we have that
masculine come in inside of uswhere I'm like, oh, what do I
need to fix?
Uh-oh, what if she's asking mea question?
But if I know ahead of timeyou're just venting, I'm like,
(37:12):
cool, great, yeah, shoot, doyour thing.
I'm like, all right, do youwant to say anything else?
How about now?
Anything else?
How about now?
And then it's like normallysomebody's like, oh, I'm so glad
I needed to share and hearmyself.
And I'm like I totally get it.
And actually the other day Iwas talking to Brenda.
I don't remember what I wasoff-gassing or sharing about,
(37:34):
but Brenda said to me I hear youand I see you.
And I think that was the thirdthing you said.
You said I hear you, I see you.
You said something else and Ican't tell you how delicious
that felt.
I was like, oh, she heard me,she sees me.
That was enough.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I love that.
I do remember when I said thatto you I think I said you were
seen and heard and that's a 12step thing that comes from 12
step.
So if you share in 12 step,they not always but often will
say you're seen and heard.
And it is really beautiful tobe received in that way, because
(38:13):
at the bus stop conversationsnobody's really saying that
they're just going on to theirstory because they're so backed
up that they're like oh well,let me tell you the horrible
story that happened in my houselast night with my kids or my
husband and nobody saying I seeyou and I feel you and I heard
you and then actually pausingand not coming in with your own
(38:37):
story.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
It really does make such a difference I can't say it
or stress it enough WheneverBrenda's so good at this,
whenever she says you knowyou're seen and heard, or it
just feels so good Likesomething happens in that space.
But I don't think, not, I don'tthink, I know I didn't have
(38:58):
that skill before.
So I'm giggling and laughingand it's funny that I'm like, oh
, we do it with consent now andthere's systems and tools, but
it does actually feel better.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
It does feel better and I'm really, oh, we do it
with consent now and there'ssystems and tools, but it does
actually feel better.
It does feel better and I'mreally grateful for it.
It kind of takes away the drama, and at the bus stop you
probably could get your feelingshurt because somebody wasn't
listening all the way.
As compared to if I call youand I say, hey, can you listen
to me for a couple of minutes,it's very different, and then I
(39:28):
know that you have the capacityto do it.
I also trust your yes and yourno where you might be like well,
I can't right now, but call mein three hours.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
I trust that.
There's also a piece that ifyou say to me I can't right now,
for whatever reason and we'retrusting each other in it I get
to turn somewhere else to get myneeds met.
And then I get to turn to youand say thanks so much for being
available.
I was able to like be heard andseen.
And then you know oh, myfriends handled, I didn't have
(40:00):
to do it for whatever reason,and we keep moving right.
I don't have to tell everysingle one of my friends my vent
piece right.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Exactly.
I think you're bringing up areally good point too, that we
don't have to be everything foreveryone.
We don't have to be everythingfor everyone and our friendships
don't have to fulfill all theparts of ourselves, just like
our romantic relationships arenot going to fill all the parts
of ourselves.
(40:29):
It's just not realistic, and Ithink that if we're really in
reality, then we know that, andI think the expectation that one
person is going to fulfill allof you is some old romantic
notion that really just leads todisappointment.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Yeah, I'm going to just out myself and say I think
that the times in my life whereI wanted somebody to be
everything, I was just beinglazy and I wasn't willing to
form deeper relationships withmore people.
I think that was part of it, inaddition to potentially growing
(41:08):
up feeling like I was part ofthe witness protection program,
of which I was not, but justbeing told all the time like
whatever happens here stays here, and so not being willing to
share.
And it took a long time for meto become someone that, going
from not sharing to then sharing, to then sharing so
intentionally that I because Ithink there's also a fear, right
(41:32):
, I remember at a time I don'tremember exactly when, but I can
recall touching a place, like,oh, I'm going to share this and
I hope they don't share it withsomeone else, right, like where
there's this whole privacy thing, like I want to share my
secrets and I hope nobody sharesmy secrets, right, and becoming
(41:53):
the woman that, when I share mysecrets, even though I would
like to have a certain level ofprivacy, understanding that
people are human and thatsomebody might share something
of mine and am I willing to backit, becoming the kind of person
that once something leaves mylips, I know it's left and it's
(42:16):
out there and being willing tohold the weight of that.
Becoming that woman felt a lotbetter for me than holding
someone else on a pedestal as ifthey had signed an NDA for me,
like a Madonna or something.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Madonna, I love it.
Okay, I'm going to shift gearsa little bit, because there's
two other kinds of friendshipson our list.
There's seven here that we'retalking about and people we will
review the names of them at theend, where we decided that we
would go through these in alinear fashion, but that is, of
course, not what happened at all.
So there's two more that wehaven't talked about that I do
want to touch on.
One is surface levelfriendships, so these are casual
(42:59):
acquaintances or people youinteract with in social settings
but don't form deep connectionswith.
What would you say about that,catherine?
I love these.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
I love these drive-bys.
I love that Because they'reprobably those are the moments
where I get to talk to themabout things.
It's almost like I'm thinkingof bank accounts, credit cards,
assets.
It's almost like why would Iwant to spend my deep
conversations on someone?
(43:28):
That's surface level?
I want to be able to spend mysurface level conversations on
surface level, like I want to beable to talk about that doc
series, I want to be able totalk about how hot Reacher is,
but I don't want to spend thattime on the person that I can
have deep conversations withbecause, yeah, I want to be
intentional about what I'mhaving.
So that's what comes to mindfor me.
(43:48):
I'm like, oh, casualacquaintances, yeah, I get to
talk about.
You know, what good movies haveyou seen?
Have you seen anything?
I really love comedies.
What's the last comedy that yousaw?
Or I get to talk about andshoot the crap, shoot the shit,
as they say about things that Iwouldn't normally get the chance
to, not because it's notavailable, but because I'm
(44:11):
spending my relationship coinswisely.
You have relationship coins.
Yes, I get to cash in my chips.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
I love that.
That's so good.
I love how much joy andapproval you put on surface
level friendships, because youcould have a judgment about that
.
Oh, surface level oh, I lovethat, it's great.
It's so great.
There's so much joy in that.
This is one thing I loved aboutmy grandmother she would talk
to everybody, no matter where wewent.
(44:41):
My grandmother was havingconversation the grocery line,
you know the hair salon.
Mother was having aconversation the grocery line,
you know the hair salon, thestore, the playground,
everywhere, and you just talk topeople about whatever it's in
the moment and it's reallylovely.
(45:06):
I think that's where magic canhappen and that's kind of where
we're meeting life on life'sterms.
It's like here I am in thegrocery store, can you just talk
to somebody?
Or if somebody's talking to you, right, are you talking to them
back, and you may or may not beavailable for that.
Sometimes I don't want to dothat.
Sometimes I'm like don't talkto me, and other times I'm like
(45:29):
oh yeah, I'm really reallyavailable and juicy for a
conversation with a strangerright now.
I had this recently.
I took a friend for a medicalprocedure when I was in
California and I had a couple ofhours to wait and this person
just sat down at my table whereI was eating lunch and said, oh,
can I sit here?
And I checked in with myselfand I thought, yeah.
(45:50):
And he started talking to meand we just had this really nice
conversation for a while and Ireally enjoyed it.
It wasn't going to be any morethan just surface level
conversation and then I reacheda point where I felt complete
and I told him I was going toget back to my work and that was
it.
It was really enjoyable.
I want to be available for thatkind of thing in my life.
(46:11):
I want to be like mygrandmother where I could just
talk to anybody about anything.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Totally, I want to be able to talk about, to talk
about why is this not coming out?
I also want to be able to talkto anybody about anything like,
just not feel restricted.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Totally All right.
Last one Ready One-sidedfriendships, friendships where
one person puts in significantlymore effort than the other,
often leading to feelings ofimbalance or frustration.
This is a really good one,because clearly there's
(46:52):
something that's not alignedright.
There's someone who wants moreand someone who's not available
and not exactly communicating it.
It feels like both people areprobably not communicating it.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
I have a lot of experience with this one.
I would say, okay, I'm going toread it again Friendships,
where one person puts insignificantly more effort than
the other.
I would say that has been me,often leading to feelings of
imbalance or frustration.
I can't say that I really feelimbalance or frustration anymore
(47:25):
.
I probably this is like abigger topic, but I'm not even
sure if we've done an episode onthe victim triangle but
triangle.
But I would consider myselflike the rescuer position where
somebody would talk and I wantto be there or want to listen or
want to help or offer advice,something like that.
And in my twenties I think I hadmore experiences of imbalance
(47:47):
or frustration and over theyears I've been able to sort of
not do that or, if I'm doing, itbe a lot more intentional.
So I'll check in with myselfand say somebody will be telling
me their thing.
They're usually not availablefor me to tell them my thing and
, in all honesty, normally thatperson also doesn't have the
(48:11):
capacity to give me the kind ofsight that I would want if I
were to share my thing.
So it's one-sided.
I'm aware I'm putting in moreeffort and usually it's someone
who I really love or care for,or it's a stranger and they're
just talking to me aboutsomething that I potentially
have a lot of experience orjuice in, and I check in with
(48:34):
myself and I'm willing to shareof my and it's sort of like in
my zone of genius, so I'mwilling.
So, yeah, I have someexperience there.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, my experience with thisis it's not exactly this, but
it's actually something that I'mgrateful for, where one person
is really good at pursuing thefriendship.
I've had a couple offriendships where people are
just really good at pursuing thefriendship and saying, hey, do
(49:06):
you want to get together?
Do you want to get together?
I don't always think of that.
I mean I do.
I do more now, but when I thinkback to past relationships,
there's a couple of times wherewomen have been like hey, do you
want to get together?
Like I have one really goodfriends when my kids were little
and she always would want tohave play dates with the kids
and and we would get together.
(49:27):
And we got together everyTuesday afternoon after work.
She was a teacher also andevery Tuesday, one week I would
go to her house and one week shewould go to my house.
That was all her.
That was all her desire, herignition, her being willing to
initiate it.
And I met her there.
I loved it.
I loved receiving herinvitations and we had this
(49:48):
beautiful friendships and ourkids were friends for many, many
years.
So that could fall into that alittle bit.
But also we matched funds, likeI responded to her and I
reacted to her and I met herthere.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Yeah, I would say I also have been that friend for
some of my friends.
I tend to have some closefriends, so if you are listening
, uh, that they'll be goingthrough some things and I'm like
, hey, do you want to go tobrunch, you want to go to lunch,
you want to get together, youwant to go for a walk?
You want to, and they don'twant to meet me in that location
(50:24):
, um, because maybe they don'twant to be seen or heard there,
because it's very confrontingand I've learned to not take
that personally.
It's not really about me, andso I'll continue to extend the
invitation for whenever they'reavailable to say, yes, love that
.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Just giving an invitation for somebody to say
yes, that's really good.
Just giving an invitation forsomebody to say yes, it's really
good.
We've actually touched all ofthese seven types of
relationships that Lane Moorediscusses in this book.
You Will Find your People.
But go read it In fulldisclosure.
Catherine and I have not readthe book.
It was just a friend of minewho shared that she was reading
(51:04):
the book and reallyinvestigating the relationships
in her life and really seeingwho falls into what category,
for the purpose of not havingdisappointment in your
friendships, not expectingpeople to show up in a certain
way that you really want whenthey're in a different category,
(51:25):
and so I was really inspired bythat.
So I'm going to read thesetypes of friendships.
We'll put these in the shownotes as well.
We have surface levelfriendships, situational
friendships, trauma bondedfriendships, one-sided
friendships, one-sidedfriendships, long distance
(51:54):
friendships, chosen family andsoul friendships, and all of
these have so much to offer intheir own way, and we may go in
and out of these at differentpoints in our life.
They all serve something in usthat we need and want at the
time, and when we want somethingdifferent, we would go after
that.
We might pursue that.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
The biggest piece for me, why I really wanted us to
talk about this.
My intention was I thought itwas so cool that somebody
actually broke it down in thisway, like how cool to make a
book about that, to write a bookabout that, about it, how cool
to look at the differentcategories of friendships and
maybe there are others thatother people have.
Please write in, let us know.
(52:35):
How do you categorize your ownfriendships or, if at all,
beyond above all things, I just,in sisterhood, think that
there's so much possible and Ireally hope that this episode
kind of opens that door evenwider for possibility.
Thank you so much, everyone fortuning in to today's episode.
(52:57):
We loved having you.
We'd love hearing what you haveto say.
So continue to DM us and writereviews on Apple.
Yeah, write reviews on Apple,we'd love it Until next time.
Bye for now.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast
(53:20):
Desire invites us to be honest,loving and deeply intimate with
ourselves and others.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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