April 23, 2025 • 52 mins
This episode explores the beautiful complexity of women’s friendships, challenging the myth that deep connection happens effortlessly.
Catherine & Brenda share personal stories about how our own relationship grew through intentional investment - what we call “coins in the fountain.” True sisterhood takes time, vulnerability, and the courage to navigate discomfort. Many of us were never taught how to build lasting, soul-nourishing friendships.
We dive into common patterns, like collusion, jealousy, and conditional support, and how unlearning them opens space for authentic connection. We also acknowledge the often-overlooked grief that comes when friendships shift or end, and how deeply those losses can impact us.
What does real sisterhood look like? It’s imperfect, messy, and profoundly rewarding. It’s showing up fully, celebrating each other’s growth, and choosing courage and care over comparison.
Sisterhood is not about luck—it’s an intentiional practice of intention and trust.
Episode Highlights:
• Challenging the myth that friendships are effortless
• Investing time, energy, and vulnerability
• Transforming situational friendships into soul connections
• Releasing unhealthy patterns like collusion and competition
• Honoring the grief of evolving or ending friendships
• Allowing imperfection and repair
• Building relationships that truly see, support, and celebrate
• Finding your people through courageous, intentional choices
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desire as Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Welcome back to Desire as Medicine podcast.
This is Brenda, and I am joinedby my amazing, incredible,
beautiful co host, catherineNavarro, who is sitting over
there smiling back at me,shining her light, as always.
So grateful to Catherine.
(01:46):
We've been diving into one ofmy favorite topics the last few
episodes, which is sisterhoodSisterhood, creating the
friendships that we truly wantin our lives the friendships
that we truly want in our lives,and today we have a really
(02:07):
great topic for you.
Before I share what that is, Iwant to share a text that a
friend sent to me about thepodcast.
It's so beautiful and I'msharing it in the context of
sisterhood.
This is a dear friend of mine,so she says I brag.
I have this wise friend, brenda,who has this juicy podcast
(02:28):
desire as medicine.
I'm grateful.
It was just what I needed tobathe deeply in during my period
, like a salve healing me on theinside.
I desire to reflect back themagnitude of ripples these
podcasts have as tools of selflove, wisdom that I will pass
(02:52):
down and pay forward to manyothers for years to come, making
more ripples of homemadeself-love.
Soothing juicy bombs Soundslike a poem.
Self-love, soothing juicy bombsSounds like a poem.
Thank you, goddess for therichest of ointments, and then
the most beautiful emojis afterit, of water and stars and
(03:16):
planets and moons, and it's sobeautiful and my response was oh
, this is the best message ever.
Thank you so much receivingyour gorgeous reflections, and I
wanted to share that becauseit's so incredible to have
friends who can hold themselvesso beautifully and have the
(03:40):
willingness to share their heart, to share the truth of their
heart.
That's a very vulnerablemessage that she sent to me and
I really really appreciate it,and Catherine and I love, love,
love, love, love receiving yourreflections.
So if you're somebody who textsus or leaves a review on
(04:03):
Spotify or Apple, just know thatit means the world to us and we
share them with each other, andif you send us a screenshot,
we'll send you a meditation.
This is a meditation byCatherine, and the other thing I
want to say about this messagethat I received from this dear
friend thank you so much ifyou're listening is the format
(04:31):
that she wrote it to me actuallyused a tool that we've talked
about on this podcast.
So it's a brag gratitude,desire.
Yeah, brag gratitude and desire, and that is.
If you want to know more aboutit.
It's episode 49 called theDesire Quad, and then you can
use that tool too.
All right, people, let's getinto it.
(04:51):
Today's episode, we are divingdeep into a topic that touches
every woman's heart.
It touches my heart sisterhood.
We've all heard the phrasesyou'll find your people, but
what does that actually mean andwhy can it sometimes feel so
(05:13):
hard or impossible?
Last episode and this episodeis inspired by the book you Will
Find your People by Lane Moore,and we're exploring the
realities of friendships, womenfriendships and, let's face it,
there's everything inside offemale friendships beauty,
(05:36):
heartbreak, healing, possibility.
And today we're going to unpacksome myths.
We're going to unpack the myththat deep connection happens
effortlessly because it does not.
A little spoiler alert we'regoing to talk about the
challenge of unlearning toxicfriendship patterns and the
(06:01):
grief of outgrowingrelationships that no longer
serve us Because, let's face it,friendships do end.
And, most importantly, we'regoing to talk about what true
sisterhood looks like to us, toCatherine and I.
Maybe you have somethingdifferent and we would love to
hear it, but we've been talkingabout the kind of sisterhood
(06:22):
where you're seen, supported andcelebrated.
So, whether you're looking fordeeper friendships or maybe
you're navigating the messymiddle of change, wherever you
are in your friendship journey.
This episode is for you, solet's get into it is for you, so
(06:49):
let's get into it.
So the first thing we want totalk about is this myth of
instant connection.
So this book challenges theidea that deep friendships just
happen effortlessly, and I wantto say that it is possible, they
can.
You can just connect withsomeone and it could seem like
you've known them forever and itcould be really easy.
(07:09):
I mean, let's just call in lifebeing easy.
But when I feel into my closestfriendships, the ones of deep
soul, sisterhood, which is whatI love in this life, they've
taken effort and they've takentime and they've taken
vulnerability and they've takena risk.
(07:33):
You get out what you put in.
And so and friendships are aninvestment you know you're.
Every time you talk to a friendon the phone, or you go for a
walk, or you meet for dinner, oryou get on Zoom, or you listen
to her crying, or you cry,whatever it is that you're doing
with your friend, helping hershop, that's a really good one.
(07:55):
You're throwing coins in thefountain.
It's an investment every singletime, in all relationships,
everything that you do.
And it does take time to buildour relationships.
What would you add to that,catherine?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
The coins in the fountain.
It has me automatically thinkabout me and some of my
friendships.
I'm a Capricorn and well, Imean, Brenda's not that far off.
She's a Virgo and we tend to beearthier, more to the ground,
more intentional signs if wewant to talk about astrology,
and I have a friend who has meas part of her like I'm just
(08:40):
going to use 2025 as an examplebut having conversations with
Catherine and like staying intouch with Catherine is one of
her purposes, like intentionsthis year, Because her time is
limited, she's a mom, she has ahusband, and so she's constantly
like these are therelationships that matter to me.
(09:00):
For me, I am for her part of herfamily.
She sees me like family.
For me, I am for her part ofher family.
She sees me like family.
That's one of the I guesswhat's the word I'm looking for.
It's one of the examples,that's the word.
It's one of the examples thatLane Moore gives that you have
(09:22):
like a chosen family.
So my friend has me as part ofher chosen family and so it's
really intentional Like we'regoing to talk, like hey, when
are you available next to talk?
So, if it is long distance, thefriendship.
So if we talk, we're alreadyscheduling like the next time
that we're going to talk.
We don't talk every day, soit's very, as Brenda said, like
(09:45):
coins in the fountain.
I know that I'm putting timeand effort into this friendship
because I really value it and Iwant to make sure that we have a
continued friendship, but thatfriendship continues to grow.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I love that.
That's really beautiful, it isintentional and it's worth it.
If we want to have somethingreally deep and meaningful, you
do need to invest in it.
Growth journey is.
(10:25):
My friends in the past all kindof looked a certain way and I
don't mean physically, but theywere like situational
friendships that maybe grew intosomething deeper and I had a
lot of deep friendships as well.
But they were people I workedwith moms of my kids' friends.
When I started expanding myhorizons and being in different
kind of rooms and meetingdifferent kinds of women, I
would say my mind was kind ofblown at who I was able to
(10:49):
connect with and some of myreally close friends now
probably even you and I.
I don't think that if we justmet in the street, you know, 10
or 20 years ago, that it wouldhave developed into a friendship
.
I think probably I had ideas ofwhat it would look like or
(11:10):
there was something that broughtus together where this is much
more of a soul relationship,where the thing that's bringing
us together is our desire forthe deep relationship, our
desire for basically a desireled life, being our true selves
and being on this journey.
But I look at some of myfriends and I'm like, oh wow, I
(11:30):
don't know that I would havebeen friends with her in the
past and that really blows mymind in the best of ways.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
It's interesting that you're saying this right now
because I would say that withboth friendships this one friend
that I'm talking about coins inthe fountain it was somewhat
situational.
We met in a program.
We also bonded over being goodstudents, like we'd share notes
and talk about.
So there was a situation inthat realm.
(12:01):
She often says there's no way wewould be friends similar to
what you're pointing to Brenda,and it's true.
We come from differenteducational backgrounds,
different socioeconomicbackgrounds, different races,
different countries.
Like under what circumstances,right, would that friendship?
Would we even be in eachother's rooms?
(12:23):
And even you and I?
There is a certain situation,right, like we have a project
that we love and that we pourour love and attention into.
That also has us pour into eachother.
And so, as you talk about itand smooth it out a little more,
I'm like actually, yes, thereis a certain situational
(12:51):
component, even though I loveyou and adore you.
But it's true, I mean we havecertain connection points
throughout the week that wouldnot exist if we weren't working
on this piece together.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Damn girl, that's a good truth.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
That was really true.
The other thing I want to addis it's part of why I asked you.
It's not like I got otherchoices, other people to ask you
.
You were my choice.
It's interesting.
I'm thinking about people whoget married, or people, or when
I was, I think, in kindergartenor first grade, when I asked the
(13:32):
first friend like, would you bemy best friend?
And it was like a whole thing.
She had other choices for bestfriends.
So we're cute.
But now, as I think about it,I'm I'm like oh, there's a lot
of intention.
I wonder if I've given it thatmuch thought as to how much
intention there is behind thescenes.
(13:54):
To my circle, yes, how would,how and when and where would we
actually connect and under whatcircumstances.
And it does feel like, wow,this is wild under, like, how,
how are we even friends?
And it was still chosen.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, and I think you bring
up a really good point.
There is a situation that wehave that brings us together and
we are really intentional.
That brings us together and weare really intentional.
I think that we would betalking anyway, but probably not
.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I would say definitely not as much as we do,
but when you're in a situationwith somebody, it brings you
together and you can create thatdeeper relationship which I
feel that we do have Definitelyand it serves us right In so
many different places I mean, Iwould say the places where the
gift is just beautiful andblooms is the fact that I feel
(14:52):
really met and seen by you, thatyou're an amazing friend and
sister?
Yes, and having that level ofconnection and doing this
project together is so beautiful.
But there's no way I would haveknown that prior to, of course
not, there was desire we couldhave crashed and burned.
I don't know.
(15:12):
You don't know until you're init.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Well, this is exactly what our podcast is about.
I love coming back to this.
Desire is medicine.
It's how our desires grow usinto the bigger, next version of
ourselves, and it's not alwaysabout the destination.
Even though we wanted to talkabout desire, you wanted to, you
asked me to, we did that onclubhouse and then we started
(15:38):
this podcast together.
Yes, we have a podcast, butalso there's so many other gifts
along the way.
I mean, that's a whole otherepisode is what are the gifts?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I would even say, yes , we are an example that it
wasn't an instant connection.
Right, we really worked on ourconnection for a long time
before we started to record.
We were meeting once a week forover a year.
That takes a lot of intentionand dedication.
Yes, it was for the purpose ofthe project, but a project like
(16:11):
this would require us to have aspecific connection in order for
it to be juicy and we werewilling to put in the work to
have the output that we werelooking for.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Not circumstantial.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
No, it's not and, to be honest, I've talked to a
couple of people who weredelving into podcasting with a
partner and it hasn't gone well.
It hasn't gone well because itwas really the project and the
podcast is was in the forefront,where we really put our
connection and the sisterhood inthe forefront, where we really
put our connection and thesisterhood in the forefront or
(16:47):
at least in an equal pillar nextto each other, 100%.
But it's not just about thepodcast and we show up.
No, I think this podcast isjuicy and we've been able to
come this far because of ourconnection, because we invest in
it regularly is why it's sojuicy and I think that, going
(17:08):
back to you know this myth ofinstant connection I think that
we worked at it, we really did.
And there is a myth that you'rejust going to like fit perfectly
with your friends, you're justgoing to find your people and be
like, oh my God, and it'spossible, but it's not
necessarily the way it alwaysgoes.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Right now I'm thinking about so for those of
you that don't know, or I thinkwe've talked about it once or
twice, definitely when Oliviainterviewed us.
But I had a vision for thebeginning of the podcast and you
had a vision.
Brenda is really outgoing andwe've had a different sisterhood
podcast conversation where shetalks about all the connections
(17:49):
that she has, and so Brenda'slike, yes, we're going to have
this podcast and we're going tointerview everyone, and she was
so ready.
She was like ready to interviewfrom day one, and I'm like, no,
no, no, I had my vision.
I'm like, no, we need to dropthe first eight so that people
know exactly what we're talkingabout, so that we're talking
about the same lingo and we canall be on the same page.
I had this vision of droppingthe course that we dropped right
(18:12):
and in doing so, I didn't know,oh, that she and I were going
to get into a rhythm and agroove and we've had such
gorgeous reflections from peoplethat we have interviewed, that
have been on the show, to thatsay that it feels so good Like
we hold such different poles andit feels so good to be
interviewed by us.
But I think that is a result ofhow she and I, you and I I'm
(18:36):
saying she as if I'm, as if theaudience is here with us.
I guess you're listening, butI'm, I'm feeling like
everybody's in the room with usright now.
On the Riverside Zoom, you and Ireally meshed before, like we
found our groove before we addedothers and it really added a
layer that was unforeseen and itadds to like there is no
(19:01):
instant connection.
There's, like this place whereyou do have to work.
I remember I don't know whosays this or where I heard this
quote but like couples don'treally know what they're made of
until they fight.
Because everybody, like you,can have this idea oh my God,
(19:21):
we're so connected, everythingis going so good.
This idea, oh my God, we're soconnected, everything is going
so good Because the honeymoonphase I mean who doesn't do well
during the honeymoon phaseright Of a friendship or a
relationship?
That's why it's literallycalled the honeymoon phase but
not until you have your firstfight or your first disagreement
, or you want something to goone way and the other person
wants something to go to theother way.
You don't really know what therelationship is made out of
(19:45):
until you start to go throughthose pockets and moments.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, and that's a great example of our visions and
how they were different and youwere right and it's not about
being right, but it's not aboutthat but you had a vision that
was different and I'm laughingbecause you were going to win
(20:11):
that one.
I just felt it.
You were very stronglyopinioned on that and you were
like you know you, you, youshared that and I could feel the
correctness of it and the truthof that of why I didn't want to
do that.
It's very vulnerable.
It was very vulnerable for usto do eight episodes on our own
(20:31):
before we had guests on.
I didn't really quite know thatat the time, but and I've
shared this on other episodeswhere we had guests on I didn't
really quite know that at thetime, but and I've shared this
on other episodes where we'vetalked about it but I think this
is a great story and I trustedyou, I trusted your vision.
You're really good at seeing thebig picture and here we are
bearing the fruits of that.
(20:52):
And I'm going to put a plug infor those first eight episodes,
because they are the cat's meow.
They are.
Episodes one through eight area mini course on desire.
Okay, so should we move intoour second subtopic?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
here.
I know we talked about goinglinear, but really we're talking
about you and I right now aboutfinding and cultivating your
people.
Great Like.
The book acknowledges how hardit can be to find your people,
especially in adulthood, and howwe may want to explore like
what are the best ways to buildsisterhood as an adult, or how
(21:32):
do we shift from situationalfriendships to deeper, lasting
connections.
I think Brenda and I are agreat example of finding and
cultivating your people, like,yes, we met and we were in a
program together and we weresort of in the same community
together, and I had met herdaughter first and then met her.
(21:52):
Then I had the desire for thepodcast.
I turned to her.
I think we had hung out a fewtimes.
I remember oh my goodness, Istill laugh at this there was a
time that I wanted to spend timewith Brenda and I'm like Brenda
, I really want us to hang out,as Brenda so has shared.
I'm not sure if it was in thispodcast episode or a different
(22:12):
one, where you have friendsreaching out to you being like,
hey, let's do this thing.
It was the other fellow teacherthat was asking you to hang out
on Tuesdays.
So I would turn to Brenda.
I'm like, hey, I want us tohang out, like go to lunch,
maybe we're going to Bryant Park, this, that.
And so she says, well, I'mgoing to this event.
And I literally went to anevent.
I've met other people, I metamazing friends at that event as
(22:34):
well.
But everybody at the event thatwas like why are you here?
Or are you here for thisparticular speaker?
I'm like, no, I came herebecause I wanted to hang out
with Brenda.
And they're like you did thewhole weekend course because you
wanted to hang out with Brenda.
I'm like, yeah, I did that.
I started to, I guess, feel likeshe's my person and how do I
(22:55):
cultivate this?
And so it was like how do Ispend time with her?
She's a mom, she has two kids,like she's busy, has a partner,
and so sometimes we have to findthe nooks and crannies, right,
like it's not, as some peoplemight say, like oh, are you
picking up crumbs or somethinginsane like that.
But for me it was worth it.
And so I would ask others,right, like, where can you
(23:19):
potentially find people?
And for us it was like we hadfriendship.
And then we have now this greatsituation where we're working
on a project that we lovetogether and that really I think
that combination is beautiful.
I'm living proof andexperiencing that.
But what comes up for you underfinding and cultivating your
people?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
First of all, I love that story and I did know that
and that was such a greatweekend and my daughter was
there too, and a couple of otherfriends.
We had a great weekend.
That was so much fun.
Also, you brought me someclothes that weekend and there
was that one dress that was justso beautiful.
What comes up for me aroundfinding and cultivating my
people?
I think you nailed it when yousaid I'm going to this weekend
(24:01):
to hang out with her.
If you want to find andcultivate your people, you need
to invest in it.
That is some resource your time, your energy, your money,
sometimes all three.
But if you want to have thedeep soul friendships, you need
(24:23):
to invest and you need to beavailable for this friendship.
Are you available for it?
Can you really show up for it?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So good, I'm thinking about something else now 12
step.
I love 12 step.
I know you're part of 12 step.
We always talk about 12 step.
I talk to my clients about 12step because not only is 12 step
amazing, an amazing tool, it'sa free resource.
You get to go be in rooms andtalk to other people that are
also interested in personalgrowth, but they also have
(24:56):
fellowship.
And that would be an investmentof time not necessarily, well,
I guess money.
If you're going to buy coffeeor bagel or whatever you guys
are doing together, it's somefinancial.
But for the most part, you'reinvesting your time.
You go to a 12-step meetingAl-Anon, aca, whatever kind of
meeting and then there will beoften fellowship.
That goes, a bunch of peoplethat go out for coffee or just,
(25:18):
you know, tea or water orwhatever, go to the park, go
somewhere and just spend timetogether, right.
And there's another thing thathas come up in the book about
unlearning toxic friendships,friendship patterns.
Right, she says many of us grewup witnessing or experiencing
(25:40):
unhealthy friendship dynamicslike competition, jealousy or
conditional support, and thebook explores how past wounds
can make us hesitant to trust orfully show up in sisterhood.
And so I think a 12-step room.
Granted, nobody's perfect.
I'm not saying that you'regoing to go to a 12-step room
(26:00):
and everybody in the room isgoing to be perfect, but you're
going to be speaking potentiallyabout, and having conversations
around, topics that you want tolearn about yourself and others
in those rooms, becauseeverybody's there sort of
looking for a higher version ofthemselves.
How do they address thepatterns that are showing up for
them?
How do they build supportivefriendships?
This is all occurring in theserooms.
(26:22):
I'm like what a great place topotentially find your people,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Whatever, whatever kind of room that you want to
get yourself into, and I thinkyou really nailed it again when
you said people are going in tobecome the highest version of
themselves and I think that ifyou want to unlearn toxic
friendship patterns orrelationship patterns, it starts
with you.
When I started putting myselfinto rooms where I was just
(26:49):
learning about this and beingable to observe my own behavior
and 12 step helped with this soso much I was able to see how
reactive I was and how much Iwas really not listening.
I wasn't really able to holdspace for people.
I was always just maybe talkingabout myself or making it about
me.
You know, that is a toxicpattern where you're not really
(27:13):
listening and you're kind ofplaying volleyball, like kids
really like parallel play, likenobody's really listening to
each other, and I really saw howI was doing that and I was
participating in that and thatwas how my friendships were.
And when I started shifting thatinside of myself, my
relationship started changingand that is, that was everything
(27:34):
you know, or how conditional itwas.
Or colluding oh my God, I thinkthat's one of the biggest toxic
friendship patterns that Iexperienced was colluding, and I
talked about this on the lastepisode.
But I had this lifelong friendand we would get on the phone
and we would just complain aboutour husbands and or how hard it
was, how hard it is to be amother, and you know it's fine.
(27:57):
We, we needed to go throughthat process, but it's only
going to get you so far.
It's kind of like being on ahamster wheel and when I started
being ready for more, more didshow up for in my life and I
can't imagine doing that now,like I have tools where I'll
unload or share, but not dumpand collude and just look for
(28:22):
somebody to constantly validatemy own dysfunction and pain.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I hear you, collusion wasn't my big one.
My big toxic friendship traitwas probably that I just needed
airtime.
I just needed sort of to likehear myself, hear my thoughts,
which makes sense, right.
I lived a long time not sharingcertain things.
Then I got of a certain agewhere I get to share, and now
any chance that I get to shareit, it's any chance that I get
(28:48):
to share I'm thinking of whenyou have the talking stick and
those indigenous circles.
Anytime I got the talking stick,I was like right and speaking
so quickly and not reallypausing, there was definitely a
sensation of dumping for me inthe beginning.
It took time for me to learn.
It was definitely hindsightlearning and tons of pain in the
(29:10):
process where I would askmyself did I really need to
share that?
Was that really necessary?
Did that really add to theconversation?
Was that extra?
And when I say extra, I mean itreally didn't add to the
connection between myself andthe other person speaking.
It didn't.
I wasn't necessarily addingvulnerability or sight, it was
(29:31):
sort of just sight.
It was sort of just adding.
I wasn't a big journaler and soit took some time for me to
calibrate and get to a place of,oh, this is great to share,
this has the ability to providea better connection between me
and other, or oh, that wholepiece I shared did nothing.
(29:56):
That was basically like emptycalories or just speaking into
the void, and I don't wantanybody listening to think that
there's no learning curve,because there is.
What I do want you to know isthat learning comes from being
in it.
Learning comes from practice,and that's literally what we're
(30:19):
hoping for that everybodycontinues to practice creating
their community.
That's going to back themselvesor back each other as you go
for what you want.
You go live a life led bydesire, and there will be some
hiccups, right?
Maybe you have to cleansomething up.
I'm really sorry that I spokeover you.
I'm really sorry that I keepinterrupting you.
I'm really sorry that I have tobe right.
(30:42):
I'm really sorry that I dumpedon you.
I'm really sorry that I gaveyou advice, and I didn't mean to
give you advice.
I was thinking in my mind, butthat doesn't matter.
You didn't ask me for advice.
I didn't ask for consent orwhatever sort of cleanup.
What cleanups come to mind foryou?
Well, all of those.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
What was actually coming up for me was how, like
the truth of being seen andunderstood in our friendships is
, when we allow for what you'retalking about, like allowing for
mess ups and cleanups where weare imperfect, we do struggle,
we're giving space for eachother's growth.
That's true relationship.
(31:21):
We're not going to always getit right.
We're not going to always sendthe perfect text.
We're going to get our feelingshurt and then how do we be with
that?
And sometimes it is cleanup.
It's really beautiful to be witheach other in your
imperfections and I've had manyhiccups with friends in the last
few years, even in my deep soulfriendships where somebody's
(31:45):
feelings gets hurt or somehiccup happens and you just kind
of like work it through andit's like awkward and bumpy and
you're maybe revealing parts ofyourself that you wish that you
weren't.
You wish that you were doingsomething a little bit neater or
cleaner or more advanced.
But at the end of the day,we're just humans, or bringing
(32:08):
in 12 step, we're just bozos onthe bus on the bus being people.
And can you allow that foryourself?
Can you just have yourself beseen in your messy and also see
someone in their messy and notjudge them, you know, and just
(32:30):
open your heart and havecompassion for their humanity.
And it really just starts withyourself and you accept your own
humanity and have compassionfor your own mess.
That's really where it starts.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
You're bringing in some truth bombs.
I know we're talking about.
You know one of the things ofthe book of the power of being
seen and understood right, howwe friendships thrive on
emotional safety and mutualunderstanding and how true
sisterhood allows us for that,imperfection, struggle and
growth.
But what you're bringing in isa different mirror bomb here.
(33:04):
I just want to point out that Icaught that little slick sly
you threw in there, brenda,which is usually I used to have
a 12-step mentor that used tosay whenever I got annoyed with
somebody in the room, whateverthey were presenting with, that
really got under my skin likepsoriasis was, because that was
(33:25):
probably something, a trait thatI have and own, that I could
not accept in myself.
And so sometimes there's thatSometimes self, and so sometimes
there's that.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Sometimes I think there's often that.
I think that's a greatrelationship hack is when
somebody is annoying you oryou're judging someone.
Just ask yourself do you havethat inside of yourself?
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I mostly come up with the answer yes, sometimes I
come up with the answer.
I don't allow that in myself,so usually somebody is
exhibiting something that I, forwhatever conditioning, consider
unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Exactly, you don't allow it in yourself.
Exactly so, for instance, sincewe're talking about women, if a
woman is taking up a lot ofspace, if she's just
unapologetically going after herdesires, we've cut women down.
For that, we've taken eachother down.
For that, we found each otherwrong.
We've talked about her behindher back.
Who does she think she is?
(34:27):
And that's really mirroring ourown inability to be that bold.
And what we're talking about isthis new paradigm of sisterhood
, where we look at that insideof ourselves and actually back
her.
That's really what we'regetting at here, because this
(34:47):
cutting each other down businessit's so limited and it's
exhausting.
It's not taking us into thenext world, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
It's definitely not taking us to the higher version
of ourselves, for sure.
Right, we have judgments aboutourselves and others, and so
definitely we have our tribe,like what we consider acceptable
behavior or acceptable poise,or you know.
I think I can't remember whothe Hindu teacher is, but
(35:15):
somebody was asking him how comeyou guys eat with your fingers
and not with like a fork andknife?
And he said because our fingersaren't dirty like Americans.
That was so funny to me becausean American would probably say
why would you do that?
Why are you eating your foodwith your hands?
So an American would probablysay why would you do that?
(36:00):
Why are you eating your foodwith your hands?
Oh, it's so much more civilizedto use a fork and knife, or
you're supposed to use the rightfork with the right this, or
you're doing it this way or notthat way, or a woman somewhere,
because the conditioning is sounconscious, so internalized,
and it's hard to face.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
It's really hard to face.
It's really hard to face andI'm really glad that we're
talking about this.
And the last piece that I wantto bring in one of the big
takeaways from this book isgrief, the grief of outgrowing
friendships.
It's so heartbreaking.
(36:27):
Or when friendships end forwhatever reason, it's so painful
.
I think we don't even giveenough space or credit to the
pain of our female friendshipswhen they fall apart for
whatever reason.
I think that we give a lot ofspace for when our romantic
relationships fall apart, butour friendships, I don't know.
(36:49):
Do you have friendships thathave fallen apart, that you're
not friends with the personanymore and you've had so much
sadness or anger or grief somany, yeah, so many.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
I know, right, I have had many, many.
I um, I've had some friendshipsthat have ended from my
goodness.
I'm going to talk about onewhere I was the villain.
I was a teenager and I startedto hang out with the cool kids
and one of my best friends wasreally good at like.
(37:25):
We lived, I think, in the samebuilding.
I think she ended up havingjournalism as her background or
that was her avenue, so she waspretty nerdy and I was an A
student.
But I don't think I just the wayI saw my life and world at that
(37:46):
time really meant that I wantedto be a cool kid, and being a
cool kid meant not being friendswith her anymore, right,
because she wasn't one of thecool kids and so there was grief
there because I was lettingthat friendship go.
It wasn't dramatic or there wasno like.
I'm thinking of those Lifetimemovies where a friend confronts
(38:10):
you and is like I can't believeyou didn't talk to me.
There was none of that.
It just happened and ended andthat was it.
And I proceeded to go down mycool kid path and have very
negative experiences and shecontinued to not, and she went
down her nerdy kid path and hadaccolades and did really well in
(38:30):
life and I clearly made the badchoice, but it was the choice I
made right.
So I'm sure maybe she has griefabout it, maybe it's something
she never thought about again.
But I'm using this examplebecause there are so many and so
many different reasons why andjust like it's not a lifetime
(38:54):
movie, I can't imagine myselfreaching out to this person and
being like hey, I'm really sorrythat I stopped talking to you
back then, because it would justbe weird.
It's been over 40 years.
Like, who's doing that?
Nobody's doing that.
This person, I'm sure doesn'tcare.
I'm sure it was important atthe time but doesn't matter now.
It's more of talking about itbecause it is a fact of life,
(39:18):
like we grow apart.
It's really true.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I think your window of opportunity has definitely
closed on that.
Yeah, I've had a couple offriendships myself that have
ended, and the friend that I wastalking about earlier, where we
would call each other and justcollude about how hard life was
and just validate each other'sstories all the time.
We were friends from like sixthor seventh grade all through
(39:48):
into my thirties.
It was a very long friendship,like we had our kids together,
and I really think that shebrought me to my spiritual path.
She did a program that Iwatched her go through and then
I went through it and and assoon as I signed up for that
program and did it, we werenever friends again.
(40:08):
Like the friendship ended.
She kind of cut me out, kind oflike you're a story, except I
was your friend.
She just cut me out Kind oflike you're a story, except I
was your friend.
She just cut me out and I thinkwe were growing in different
directions and it was painful.
It was painful that she cut meout because I didn't really get
a reason and I tried to reachout to her and apologize and she
(40:32):
didn't want any part of it andthat was it.
It was done.
We were friends for over 20years and then it was just done
and there's grief in my heartabout that and I also feel the
rightness of it.
We were just friends for thatpoint and I think it's actually
quite beautiful that she led meto my spiritual path in a way.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I just thought it sounds beautiful, like painful
and so beautiful.
Yeah, it has me think ofromantic relationships where
they end and they're not endingbecause you don't love each
other anymore.
Maybe you just want differentthings from life or you want to
go in different paths.
Maybe you want to get married,he doesn't want to get married.
(41:13):
Or he wants to get married, youdon't want to get married.
Or he wants to have kids, youdon't want kids.
You want to get married, hedoesn't want to get married.
Or he wants to get married, youdon't want to get married.
Or he wants to have kids.
You don't want kids.
You want kids, he doesn't.
You want to live in a warmplace, he wants to snowboard.
I don't know, but things happenin romantic relationship and
they can also happen infriendships.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Absolutely, and what I'm thinking as you're speaking
is how usually I mean I knowthat people ghost each other all
the time in romanticrelationships.
It's more of a more currentthing than how it used to be,
but we generally end ourromantic relationships early,
intentionally.
We're like I'm done with you orsome version of that, whatever
(41:53):
it is.
But with our friendships,female friendships I don't know
that we really do that, that wesit down and really say you know
, it's not you, it's me, and Idon't want to be friends with
you anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I don't think that people do, that you have.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, do you want to say more?
What was that like?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
So one of my friends and I had a falling out and I
needed to forgive her, and itwas at a time in my life where
forgiveness wasn't really athing for me.
I am more of an avoidant.
I tend if anybody's read theattachment books, I would
(42:38):
definitely say I am moreavoidant than attached or
anxious attached or even thoughthey say anxiousness is
underneath it.
And so I was so angry and Ijust couldn't trust her the same
.
And so there was a day that wewere talking and she was like we
(42:59):
don't, and she's sort of likeletting me know all the places
where we're not who we were, andI just had to own that I could
no longer be that friend for her.
And so that's what I said.
I said I don't think I'm asgood a friend as you are.
(43:19):
It's not something that'swithin my realm or range to do.
I can't be that person.
And I had to own it and behonest about it.
No judgment, no, like you did,da, da, da.
And I I was like, oh wow, Ireally see that I can't get past
this one for whatever reason.
And we did sort of make up andkind of try here and there, and
(43:44):
the interesting thing is, I loveher to death.
I do miss her and I recognizethat.
I just have a different lifenow and friendships look
different to me now than theydid then.
And if I'm going to beintentional about my friendships
(44:05):
, then I need to be honest withmyself about that, about how far
or who I'm willing to be inrelationship with, in deep
relationship with.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
That's a really beautiful story.
I really love that.
You don't usually hear somebodysaying you're a better friend
than me.
I can't be that kind of friend.
Usually it's the opposite.
You know exalting yourselfabout how great you are and the
other person isn't quite showingup.
So I think that was reallybeautiful and honest of you and
(44:41):
I appreciate you sharing it.
Thank you.
I want to highlight how painfulit is when friendships might end
.
It can be really painful whenfriendships might end.
It can be really painful, andnot only when they end but when
there's conflict.
I know that sometimes when I'vehad conflict with friends or a
(45:01):
misunderstanding, whatever it is, it just messes me up honestly,
like I need to clear that withthe person.
It just messes me up.
It like throws me off balance,like something's not in
alignment, like am I okay overhere?
Yes, and I could feel thatsomething's just not quite right
(45:21):
.
And so the power of coming inand cleaning it up, like we've
talked about, or sharingvulnerably, is a really
beautiful part of friendship.
That I don't know that I usedto have that skill at all but
the more authentic we are in ourfriendships and the more we are
(45:44):
showing up as our true selves.
That's imperfect, so there'smore hiccups that are likely to
occur, which means more cleanup.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Definitely more cleanup.
I think there's a lot of powerin being honest when you have a
shortcoming.
So I used to be accused of thisoften, especially in my
twenties.
You talk like a man.
I used to get that a lot.
You talk like a man.
(46:15):
I used to get that a lot, andit's because of the way I listen
so intently and I would just belistening to the other person.
Women tend to interrupt eachother or say, oh yeah, like
these are things that I'velearned to do.
They weren't innate to me.
Innate to me would be you talk,talk, talk, talk, talk and I
have nothing to say the wholetime and I'm just listening and
(46:37):
connecting dots until the end.
And then I have like somethingto say and usually I'm just
listening.
And it was such a thing to workon for me because it was not
well-received at all.
Women would feel uncomfortableor like they were being judged
(46:57):
or I don't know.
It just did not bode well.
So it took some time for me tolearn how to communicate
differently in that way.
And I'm just giggling becausethere has to be room for these
imperfections, these quirks thatwe have, because we're not
robots, we're human beings.
We're not like AI machinesright, like if you ask chat, gpt
(47:21):
, what should I say?
You can get a prompt and youcan text someone back or email
them back.
But these conversations arehappening in real life and so
there's a hiccup or there's a.
Catherine, are you listening?
I'm like I'm here, I'm justlistening.
They're like, well, saysomething.
It sounds like you're not there.
I'm like I'm here, I'mlistening, and so it's taken me
(47:48):
some time to be like okay, okay,uh-huh, to do those, to have
those cues that it just takestime for us to learn.
Where are we falling short?
Where can we not show up andallowing ourselves the grace of
I'm not perfect and oh, wow, Imay have fucked this
(48:14):
relationship, like I may havebeen the one that you know did
not show up for this friendship,and can I exit gracefully or is
there something to be cleanedup?
There is no right, alwaysanswer, and there will be grief
of outgr someone.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
It's just the way it is.
I think if we're growing andlearning and expanding in life
and taking risks and trying newthings, we're always becoming
different versions of ourselves.
We're going to have friendsthat match that version and
that's correct no-transcript andhave a lot of love and
(49:17):
reverence for them for the timeperiod in our life that we had
them, that they served us, andjust let it go.
Let it go in great love.
We don't need to make it wrong.
We don't need to find theperson wrong.
We don't need to find ourselveswrong, wrong.
We don't need to find theperson wrong.
We don't need to find ourselveswrong.
We can just accept it and say,oh, that ended and maybe there's
(49:38):
something there to learn Ithink that's not so easy.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
It's easier said than done to admit that.
I think it's a stronger, it's amore honest pose, especially if
you've been the one.
It's really easy to be theperson throwing stones.
It's different when you live inthat glass house, right?
(50:01):
And so if there's anything thatI want listeners to take away
is please be gentle withyourself here, because there is
grief.
You will grieve.
The relationship, you just will.
Anything that was worth yourtime is going to be painful, and
if it's not painful, then whatthe hell?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
were you doing?
Those are some really beautifultruth bombs.
I want to leave our listenerswith some thoughts.
Finding your people isn't aboutluck, it's about intention.
It's about courage, taking arisk.
It's about trusting yourselfwith your own desire for the
relationships that you want.
(50:40):
And true sisterhood takes time,and when we commit to showing up
authentically and we're willingto unlearn our old patterns and
embrace the ebbs and flows oflife and friendships, we do
create space for the deep,nourishing connections that we
long for.
So maybe you're in a season ofbuilding new friendships, maybe
(51:02):
you're grieving ones that you'velost, or maybe you're just
realizing that true sisterhoodreally starts with how you show
up for yourself.
Wherever you are in thefriendship journey and I believe
that we all are on it you arenot alone in this.
So if today's episode resonatedwith you, catherine, and I
(51:25):
would love, love, love to hearyour thoughts.
We would love for you to shareyour reflections.
Send a message to us onInstagram, desire is Medicine
podcast, leave us a review onApple, or pass the episode along
to a friend who you might wantto share this with.
So until next time, take careand please keep choosing the
(51:47):
connections that nourish you,that nourish you.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desire as Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Welcome back to Desire as Medicine podcast.
This is Brenda, and I am joinedby my amazing, incredible,
beautiful co host, catherineNavarro, who is sitting over
there smiling back at me,shining her light, as always.
So grateful to Catherine.
(01:46):
We've been diving into one ofmy favorite topics the last few
episodes, which is sisterhoodSisterhood, creating the
friendships that we truly wantin our lives the friendships
that we truly want in our lives,and today we have a really
(02:07):
great topic for you.
Before I share what that is, Iwant to share a text that a
friend sent to me about thepodcast.
It's so beautiful and I'msharing it in the context of
sisterhood.
This is a dear friend of mine,so she says I brag.
I have this wise friend, brenda,who has this juicy podcast
(02:28):
desire as medicine.
I'm grateful.
It was just what I needed tobathe deeply in during my period
, like a salve healing me on theinside.
I desire to reflect back themagnitude of ripples these
podcasts have as tools of selflove, wisdom that I will pass
(02:52):
down and pay forward to manyothers for years to come, making
more ripples of homemadeself-love.
Soothing juicy bombs Soundslike a poem.
Self-love, soothing juicy bombsSounds like a poem.
Thank you, goddess for therichest of ointments, and then
the most beautiful emojis afterit, of water and stars and
(03:16):
planets and moons, and it's sobeautiful and my response was oh
, this is the best message ever.
Thank you so much receivingyour gorgeous reflections, and I
wanted to share that becauseit's so incredible to have
friends who can hold themselvesso beautifully and have the
(03:40):
willingness to share their heart, to share the truth of their
heart.
That's a very vulnerablemessage that she sent to me and
I really really appreciate it,and Catherine and I love, love,
love, love, love receiving yourreflections.
So if you're somebody who textsus or leaves a review on
(04:03):
Spotify or Apple, just know thatit means the world to us and we
share them with each other, andif you send us a screenshot,
we'll send you a meditation.
This is a meditation byCatherine, and the other thing I
want to say about this messagethat I received from this dear
friend thank you so much ifyou're listening is the format
(04:31):
that she wrote it to me actuallyused a tool that we've talked
about on this podcast.
So it's a brag gratitude,desire.
Yeah, brag gratitude and desire, and that is.
If you want to know more aboutit.
It's episode 49 called theDesire Quad, and then you can
use that tool too.
All right, people, let's getinto it.
(04:51):
Today's episode, we are divingdeep into a topic that touches
every woman's heart.
It touches my heart sisterhood.
We've all heard the phrasesyou'll find your people, but
what does that actually mean andwhy can it sometimes feel so
(05:13):
hard or impossible?
Last episode and this episodeis inspired by the book you Will
Find your People by Lane Moore,and we're exploring the
realities of friendships, womenfriendships and, let's face it,
there's everything inside offemale friendships beauty,
(05:36):
heartbreak, healing, possibility.
And today we're going to unpacksome myths.
We're going to unpack the myththat deep connection happens
effortlessly because it does not.
A little spoiler alert we'regoing to talk about the
challenge of unlearning toxicfriendship patterns and the
(06:01):
grief of outgrowingrelationships that no longer
serve us Because, let's face it,friendships do end.
And, most importantly, we'regoing to talk about what true
sisterhood looks like to us, toCatherine and I.
Maybe you have somethingdifferent and we would love to
hear it, but we've been talkingabout the kind of sisterhood
(06:22):
where you're seen, supported andcelebrated.
So, whether you're looking fordeeper friendships or maybe
you're navigating the messymiddle of change, wherever you
are in your friendship journey.
This episode is for you, solet's get into it is for you, so
(06:49):
let's get into it.
So the first thing we want totalk about is this myth of
instant connection.
So this book challenges theidea that deep friendships just
happen effortlessly, and I wantto say that it is possible, they
can.
You can just connect withsomeone and it could seem like
you've known them forever and itcould be really easy.
(07:09):
I mean, let's just call in lifebeing easy.
But when I feel into my closestfriendships, the ones of deep
soul, sisterhood, which is whatI love in this life, they've
taken effort and they've takentime and they've taken
vulnerability and they've takena risk.
(07:33):
You get out what you put in.
And so and friendships are aninvestment you know you're.
Every time you talk to a friendon the phone, or you go for a
walk, or you meet for dinner, oryou get on Zoom, or you listen
to her crying, or you cry,whatever it is that you're doing
with your friend, helping hershop, that's a really good one.
(07:55):
You're throwing coins in thefountain.
It's an investment every singletime, in all relationships,
everything that you do.
And it does take time to buildour relationships.
What would you add to that,catherine?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
The coins in the fountain.
It has me automatically thinkabout me and some of my
friendships.
I'm a Capricorn and well, Imean, Brenda's not that far off.
She's a Virgo and we tend to beearthier, more to the ground,
more intentional signs if wewant to talk about astrology,
and I have a friend who has meas part of her like I'm just
(08:40):
going to use 2025 as an examplebut having conversations with
Catherine and like staying intouch with Catherine is one of
her purposes, like intentionsthis year, Because her time is
limited, she's a mom, she has ahusband, and so she's constantly
like these are therelationships that matter to me.
(09:00):
For me, I am for her part of herfamily.
She sees me like family.
For me, I am for her part ofher family.
She sees me like family.
That's one of the I guesswhat's the word I'm looking for.
It's one of the examples,that's the word.
It's one of the examples thatLane Moore gives that you have
(09:22):
like a chosen family.
So my friend has me as part ofher chosen family and so it's
really intentional Like we'regoing to talk, like hey, when
are you available next to talk?
So, if it is long distance, thefriendship.
So if we talk, we're alreadyscheduling like the next time
that we're going to talk.
We don't talk every day, soit's very, as Brenda said, like
(09:45):
coins in the fountain.
I know that I'm putting timeand effort into this friendship
because I really value it and Iwant to make sure that we have a
continued friendship, but thatfriendship continues to grow.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I love that.
That's really beautiful, it isintentional and it's worth it.
If we want to have somethingreally deep and meaningful, you
do need to invest in it.
Growth journey is.
(10:25):
My friends in the past all kindof looked a certain way and I
don't mean physically, but theywere like situational
friendships that maybe grew intosomething deeper and I had a
lot of deep friendships as well.
But they were people I workedwith moms of my kids' friends.
When I started expanding myhorizons and being in different
kind of rooms and meetingdifferent kinds of women, I
would say my mind was kind ofblown at who I was able to
(10:49):
connect with and some of myreally close friends now
probably even you and I.
I don't think that if we justmet in the street, you know, 10
or 20 years ago, that it wouldhave developed into a friendship
.
I think probably I had ideas ofwhat it would look like or
(11:10):
there was something that broughtus together where this is much
more of a soul relationship,where the thing that's bringing
us together is our desire forthe deep relationship, our
desire for basically a desireled life, being our true selves
and being on this journey.
But I look at some of myfriends and I'm like, oh wow, I
(11:30):
don't know that I would havebeen friends with her in the
past and that really blows mymind in the best of ways.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
It's interesting that you're saying this right now
because I would say that withboth friendships this one friend
that I'm talking about coins inthe fountain it was somewhat
situational.
We met in a program.
We also bonded over being goodstudents, like we'd share notes
and talk about.
So there was a situation inthat realm.
(12:01):
She often says there's no way wewould be friends similar to
what you're pointing to Brenda,and it's true.
We come from differenteducational backgrounds,
different socioeconomicbackgrounds, different races,
different countries.
Like under what circumstances,right, would that friendship?
Would we even be in eachother's rooms?
(12:23):
And even you and I?
There is a certain situation,right, like we have a project
that we love and that we pourour love and attention into.
That also has us pour into eachother.
And so, as you talk about itand smooth it out a little more,
I'm like actually, yes, thereis a certain situational
(12:51):
component, even though I loveyou and adore you.
But it's true, I mean we havecertain connection points
throughout the week that wouldnot exist if we weren't working
on this piece together.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Damn girl, that's a good truth.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
That was really true.
The other thing I want to addis it's part of why I asked you.
It's not like I got otherchoices, other people to ask you
.
You were my choice.
It's interesting.
I'm thinking about people whoget married, or people, or when
I was, I think, in kindergartenor first grade, when I asked the
(13:32):
first friend like, would you bemy best friend?
And it was like a whole thing.
She had other choices for bestfriends.
So we're cute.
But now, as I think about it,I'm I'm like oh, there's a lot
of intention.
I wonder if I've given it thatmuch thought as to how much
intention there is behind thescenes.
(13:54):
To my circle, yes, how would,how and when and where would we
actually connect and under whatcircumstances.
And it does feel like, wow,this is wild under, like, how,
how are we even friends?
And it was still chosen.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, and I think you bring
up a really good point.
There is a situation that wehave that brings us together and
we are really intentional.
That brings us together and weare really intentional.
I think that we would betalking anyway, but probably not
.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I would say definitely not as much as we do,
but when you're in a situationwith somebody, it brings you
together and you can create thatdeeper relationship which I
feel that we do have Definitelyand it serves us right In so
many different places I mean, Iwould say the places where the
gift is just beautiful andblooms is the fact that I feel
(14:52):
really met and seen by you, thatyou're an amazing friend and
sister?
Yes, and having that level ofconnection and doing this
project together is so beautiful.
But there's no way I would haveknown that prior to, of course
not, there was desire we couldhave crashed and burned.
I don't know.
(15:12):
You don't know until you're init.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Well, this is exactly what our podcast is about.
I love coming back to this.
Desire is medicine.
It's how our desires grow usinto the bigger, next version of
ourselves, and it's not alwaysabout the destination.
Even though we wanted to talkabout desire, you wanted to, you
asked me to, we did that onclubhouse and then we started
(15:38):
this podcast together.
Yes, we have a podcast, butalso there's so many other gifts
along the way.
I mean, that's a whole otherepisode is what are the gifts?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I would even say, yes , we are an example that it
wasn't an instant connection.
Right, we really worked on ourconnection for a long time
before we started to record.
We were meeting once a week forover a year.
That takes a lot of intentionand dedication.
Yes, it was for the purpose ofthe project, but a project like
(16:11):
this would require us to have aspecific connection in order for
it to be juicy and we werewilling to put in the work to
have the output that we werelooking for.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Not circumstantial.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
No, it's not and, to be honest, I've talked to a
couple of people who weredelving into podcasting with a
partner and it hasn't gone well.
It hasn't gone well because itwas really the project and the
podcast is was in the forefront,where we really put our
connection and the sisterhood inthe forefront, where we really
put our connection and thesisterhood in the forefront or
(16:47):
at least in an equal pillar nextto each other, 100%.
But it's not just about thepodcast and we show up.
No, I think this podcast isjuicy and we've been able to
come this far because of ourconnection, because we invest in
it regularly is why it's sojuicy and I think that, going
(17:08):
back to you know this myth ofinstant connection I think that
we worked at it, we really did.
And there is a myth that you'rejust going to like fit perfectly
with your friends, you're justgoing to find your people and be
like, oh my God, and it'spossible, but it's not
necessarily the way it alwaysgoes.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Right now I'm thinking about so for those of
you that don't know, or I thinkwe've talked about it once or
twice, definitely when Oliviainterviewed us.
But I had a vision for thebeginning of the podcast and you
had a vision.
Brenda is really outgoing andwe've had a different sisterhood
podcast conversation where shetalks about all the connections
(17:49):
that she has, and so Brenda'slike, yes, we're going to have
this podcast and we're going tointerview everyone, and she was
so ready.
She was like ready to interviewfrom day one, and I'm like, no,
no, no, I had my vision.
I'm like, no, we need to dropthe first eight so that people
know exactly what we're talkingabout, so that we're talking
about the same lingo and we canall be on the same page.
I had this vision of droppingthe course that we dropped right
(18:12):
and in doing so, I didn't know,oh, that she and I were going
to get into a rhythm and agroove and we've had such
gorgeous reflections from peoplethat we have interviewed, that
have been on the show, to thatsay that it feels so good Like
we hold such different poles andit feels so good to be
interviewed by us.
But I think that is a result ofhow she and I, you and I I'm
(18:36):
saying she as if I'm, as if theaudience is here with us.
I guess you're listening, butI'm, I'm feeling like
everybody's in the room with usright now.
On the Riverside Zoom, you and Ireally meshed before, like we
found our groove before we addedothers and it really added a
layer that was unforeseen and itadds to like there is no
(19:01):
instant connection.
There's, like this place whereyou do have to work.
I remember I don't know whosays this or where I heard this
quote but like couples don'treally know what they're made of
until they fight.
Because everybody, like you,can have this idea oh my God,
(19:21):
we're so connected, everythingis going so good.
This idea, oh my God, we're soconnected, everything is going
so good Because the honeymoonphase I mean who doesn't do well
during the honeymoon phaseright Of a friendship or a
relationship?
That's why it's literallycalled the honeymoon phase but
not until you have your firstfight or your first disagreement
, or you want something to goone way and the other person
wants something to go to theother way.
You don't really know what therelationship is made out of
(19:45):
until you start to go throughthose pockets and moments.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, and that's a great example of our visions and
how they were different and youwere right and it's not about
being right, but it's not aboutthat but you had a vision that
was different and I'm laughingbecause you were going to win
(20:11):
that one.
I just felt it.
You were very stronglyopinioned on that and you were
like you know you, you, youshared that and I could feel the
correctness of it and the truthof that of why I didn't want to
do that.
It's very vulnerable.
It was very vulnerable for usto do eight episodes on our own
(20:31):
before we had guests on.
I didn't really quite know thatat the time, but and I've
shared this on other episodeswhere we had guests on I didn't
really quite know that at thetime, but and I've shared this
on other episodes where we'vetalked about it but I think this
is a great story and I trustedyou, I trusted your vision.
You're really good at seeing thebig picture and here we are
bearing the fruits of that.
(20:52):
And I'm going to put a plug infor those first eight episodes,
because they are the cat's meow.
They are.
Episodes one through eight area mini course on desire.
Okay, so should we move intoour second subtopic?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
here.
I know we talked about goinglinear, but really we're talking
about you and I right now aboutfinding and cultivating your
people.
Great Like.
The book acknowledges how hardit can be to find your people,
especially in adulthood, and howwe may want to explore like
what are the best ways to buildsisterhood as an adult, or how
(21:32):
do we shift from situationalfriendships to deeper, lasting
connections.
I think Brenda and I are agreat example of finding and
cultivating your people, like,yes, we met and we were in a
program together and we weresort of in the same community
together, and I had met herdaughter first and then met her.
(21:52):
Then I had the desire for thepodcast.
I turned to her.
I think we had hung out a fewtimes.
I remember oh my goodness, Istill laugh at this there was a
time that I wanted to spend timewith Brenda and I'm like Brenda
, I really want us to hang out,as Brenda so has shared.
I'm not sure if it was in thispodcast episode or a different
(22:12):
one, where you have friendsreaching out to you being like,
hey, let's do this thing.
It was the other fellow teacherthat was asking you to hang out
on Tuesdays.
So I would turn to Brenda.
I'm like, hey, I want us tohang out, like go to lunch,
maybe we're going to Bryant Park, this, that.
And so she says, well, I'mgoing to this event.
And I literally went to anevent.
I've met other people, I metamazing friends at that event as
(22:34):
well.
But everybody at the event thatwas like why are you here?
Or are you here for thisparticular speaker?
I'm like, no, I came herebecause I wanted to hang out
with Brenda.
And they're like you did thewhole weekend course because you
wanted to hang out with Brenda.
I'm like, yeah, I did that.
I started to, I guess, feel likeshe's my person and how do I
(22:55):
cultivate this?
And so it was like how do Ispend time with her?
She's a mom, she has two kids,like she's busy, has a partner,
and so sometimes we have to findthe nooks and crannies, right,
like it's not, as some peoplemight say, like oh, are you
picking up crumbs or somethinginsane like that.
But for me it was worth it.
And so I would ask others,right, like, where can you
(23:19):
potentially find people?
And for us it was like we hadfriendship.
And then we have now this greatsituation where we're working
on a project that we lovetogether and that really I think
that combination is beautiful.
I'm living proof andexperiencing that.
But what comes up for you underfinding and cultivating your
people?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
First of all, I love that story and I did know that
and that was such a greatweekend and my daughter was
there too, and a couple of otherfriends.
We had a great weekend.
That was so much fun.
Also, you brought me someclothes that weekend and there
was that one dress that was justso beautiful.
What comes up for me aroundfinding and cultivating my
people?
I think you nailed it when yousaid I'm going to this weekend
(24:01):
to hang out with her.
If you want to find andcultivate your people, you need
to invest in it.
That is some resource your time, your energy, your money,
sometimes all three.
But if you want to have thedeep soul friendships, you need
(24:23):
to invest and you need to beavailable for this friendship.
Are you available for it?
Can you really show up for it?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So good, I'm thinking about something else now 12
step.
I love 12 step.
I know you're part of 12 step.
We always talk about 12 step.
I talk to my clients about 12step because not only is 12 step
amazing, an amazing tool, it'sa free resource.
You get to go be in rooms andtalk to other people that are
also interested in personalgrowth, but they also have
(24:56):
fellowship.
And that would be an investmentof time not necessarily, well,
I guess money.
If you're going to buy coffeeor bagel or whatever you guys
are doing together, it's somefinancial.
But for the most part, you'reinvesting your time.
You go to a 12-step meetingAl-Anon, aca, whatever kind of
meeting and then there will beoften fellowship.
That goes, a bunch of peoplethat go out for coffee or just,
(25:18):
you know, tea or water orwhatever, go to the park, go
somewhere and just spend timetogether, right.
And there's another thing thathas come up in the book about
unlearning toxic friendships,friendship patterns.
Right, she says many of us grewup witnessing or experiencing
(25:40):
unhealthy friendship dynamicslike competition, jealousy or
conditional support, and thebook explores how past wounds
can make us hesitant to trust orfully show up in sisterhood.
And so I think a 12-step room.
Granted, nobody's perfect.
I'm not saying that you'regoing to go to a 12-step room
(26:00):
and everybody in the room isgoing to be perfect, but you're
going to be speaking potentiallyabout, and having conversations
around, topics that you want tolearn about yourself and others
in those rooms, becauseeverybody's there sort of
looking for a higher version ofthemselves.
How do they address thepatterns that are showing up for
them?
How do they build supportivefriendships?
This is all occurring in theserooms.
(26:22):
I'm like what a great place topotentially find your people,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Whatever, whatever kind of room that you want to
get yourself into, and I thinkyou really nailed it again when
you said people are going in tobecome the highest version of
themselves and I think that ifyou want to unlearn toxic
friendship patterns orrelationship patterns, it starts
with you.
When I started putting myselfinto rooms where I was just
(26:49):
learning about this and beingable to observe my own behavior
and 12 step helped with this soso much I was able to see how
reactive I was and how much Iwas really not listening.
I wasn't really able to holdspace for people.
I was always just maybe talkingabout myself or making it about
me.
You know, that is a toxicpattern where you're not really
(27:13):
listening and you're kind ofplaying volleyball, like kids
really like parallel play, likenobody's really listening to
each other, and I really saw howI was doing that and I was
participating in that and thatwas how my friendships were.
And when I started shifting thatinside of myself, my
relationship started changingand that is, that was everything
(27:34):
you know, or how conditional itwas.
Or colluding oh my God, I thinkthat's one of the biggest toxic
friendship patterns that Iexperienced was colluding, and I
talked about this on the lastepisode.
But I had this lifelong friendand we would get on the phone
and we would just complain aboutour husbands and or how hard it
was, how hard it is to be amother, and you know it's fine.
(27:57):
We, we needed to go throughthat process, but it's only
going to get you so far.
It's kind of like being on ahamster wheel and when I started
being ready for more, more didshow up for in my life and I
can't imagine doing that now,like I have tools where I'll
unload or share, but not dumpand collude and just look for
(28:22):
somebody to constantly validatemy own dysfunction and pain.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I hear you, collusion wasn't my big one.
My big toxic friendship traitwas probably that I just needed
airtime.
I just needed sort of to likehear myself, hear my thoughts,
which makes sense, right.
I lived a long time not sharingcertain things.
Then I got of a certain agewhere I get to share, and now
any chance that I get to shareit, it's any chance that I get
(28:48):
to share I'm thinking of whenyou have the talking stick and
those indigenous circles.
Anytime I got the talking stick,I was like right and speaking
so quickly and not reallypausing, there was definitely a
sensation of dumping for me inthe beginning.
It took time for me to learn.
It was definitely hindsightlearning and tons of pain in the
(29:10):
process where I would askmyself did I really need to
share that?
Was that really necessary?
Did that really add to theconversation?
Was that extra?
And when I say extra, I mean itreally didn't add to the
connection between myself andthe other person speaking.
It didn't.
I wasn't necessarily addingvulnerability or sight, it was
(29:31):
sort of just sight.
It was sort of just adding.
I wasn't a big journaler and soit took some time for me to
calibrate and get to a place of,oh, this is great to share,
this has the ability to providea better connection between me
and other, or oh, that wholepiece I shared did nothing.
(29:56):
That was basically like emptycalories or just speaking into
the void, and I don't wantanybody listening to think that
there's no learning curve,because there is.
What I do want you to know isthat learning comes from being
in it.
Learning comes from practice,and that's literally what we're
(30:19):
hoping for that everybodycontinues to practice creating
their community.
That's going to back themselvesor back each other as you go
for what you want.
You go live a life led bydesire, and there will be some
hiccups, right?
Maybe you have to cleansomething up.
I'm really sorry that I spokeover you.
I'm really sorry that I keepinterrupting you.
I'm really sorry that I have tobe right.
(30:42):
I'm really sorry that I dumpedon you.
I'm really sorry that I gaveyou advice, and I didn't mean to
give you advice.
I was thinking in my mind, butthat doesn't matter.
You didn't ask me for advice.
I didn't ask for consent orwhatever sort of cleanup.
What cleanups come to mind foryou?
Well, all of those.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
What was actually coming up for me was how, like
the truth of being seen andunderstood in our friendships is
, when we allow for what you'retalking about, like allowing for
mess ups and cleanups where weare imperfect, we do struggle,
we're giving space for eachother's growth.
That's true relationship.
(31:21):
We're not going to always getit right.
We're not going to always sendthe perfect text.
We're going to get our feelingshurt and then how do we be with
that?
And sometimes it is cleanup.
It's really beautiful to be witheach other in your
imperfections and I've had manyhiccups with friends in the last
few years, even in my deep soulfriendships where somebody's
(31:45):
feelings gets hurt or somehiccup happens and you just kind
of like work it through andit's like awkward and bumpy and
you're maybe revealing parts ofyourself that you wish that you
weren't.
You wish that you were doingsomething a little bit neater or
cleaner or more advanced.
But at the end of the day,we're just humans, or bringing
(32:08):
in 12 step, we're just bozos onthe bus on the bus being people.
And can you allow that foryourself?
Can you just have yourself beseen in your messy and also see
someone in their messy and notjudge them, you know, and just
(32:30):
open your heart and havecompassion for their humanity.
And it really just starts withyourself and you accept your own
humanity and have compassionfor your own mess.
That's really where it starts.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
You're bringing in some truth bombs.
I know we're talking about.
You know one of the things ofthe book of the power of being
seen and understood right, howwe friendships thrive on
emotional safety and mutualunderstanding and how true
sisterhood allows us for that,imperfection, struggle and
growth.
But what you're bringing in isa different mirror bomb here.
(33:04):
I just want to point out that Icaught that little slick sly
you threw in there, brenda,which is usually I used to have
a 12-step mentor that used tosay whenever I got annoyed with
somebody in the room, whateverthey were presenting with, that
really got under my skin likepsoriasis was, because that was
(33:25):
probably something, a trait thatI have and own, that I could
not accept in myself.
And so sometimes there's thatSometimes self, and so sometimes
there's that.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Sometimes I think there's often that.
I think that's a greatrelationship hack is when
somebody is annoying you oryou're judging someone.
Just ask yourself do you havethat inside of yourself?
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I mostly come up with the answer yes, sometimes I
come up with the answer.
I don't allow that in myself,so usually somebody is
exhibiting something that I, forwhatever conditioning, consider
unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Exactly, you don't allow it in yourself.
Exactly so, for instance, sincewe're talking about women, if a
woman is taking up a lot ofspace, if she's just
unapologetically going after herdesires, we've cut women down.
For that, we've taken eachother down.
For that, we found each otherwrong.
We've talked about her behindher back.
Who does she think she is?
(34:27):
And that's really mirroring ourown inability to be that bold.
And what we're talking about isthis new paradigm of sisterhood
, where we look at that insideof ourselves and actually back
her.
That's really what we'regetting at here, because this
(34:47):
cutting each other down businessit's so limited and it's
exhausting.
It's not taking us into thenext world, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
It's definitely not taking us to the higher version
of ourselves, for sure.
Right, we have judgments aboutourselves and others, and so
definitely we have our tribe,like what we consider acceptable
behavior or acceptable poise,or you know.
I think I can't remember whothe Hindu teacher is, but
(35:15):
somebody was asking him how comeyou guys eat with your fingers
and not with like a fork andknife?
And he said because our fingersaren't dirty like Americans.
That was so funny to me becausean American would probably say
why would you do that?
Why are you eating your foodwith your hands?
So an American would probablysay why would you do that?
(36:00):
Why are you eating your foodwith your hands?
Oh, it's so much more civilizedto use a fork and knife, or
you're supposed to use the rightfork with the right this, or
you're doing it this way or notthat way, or a woman somewhere,
because the conditioning is sounconscious, so internalized,
and it's hard to face.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
It's really hard to face.
It's really hard to face andI'm really glad that we're
talking about this.
And the last piece that I wantto bring in one of the big
takeaways from this book isgrief, the grief of outgrowing
friendships.
It's so heartbreaking.
(36:27):
Or when friendships end forwhatever reason, it's so painful
.
I think we don't even giveenough space or credit to the
pain of our female friendshipswhen they fall apart for
whatever reason.
I think that we give a lot ofspace for when our romantic
relationships fall apart, butour friendships, I don't know.
(36:49):
Do you have friendships thathave fallen apart, that you're
not friends with the personanymore and you've had so much
sadness or anger or grief somany, yeah, so many.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
I know, right, I have had many, many.
I um, I've had some friendshipsthat have ended from my
goodness.
I'm going to talk about onewhere I was the villain.
I was a teenager and I startedto hang out with the cool kids
and one of my best friends wasreally good at like.
(37:25):
We lived, I think, in the samebuilding.
I think she ended up havingjournalism as her background or
that was her avenue, so she waspretty nerdy and I was an A
student.
But I don't think I just the wayI saw my life and world at that
(37:46):
time really meant that I wantedto be a cool kid, and being a
cool kid meant not being friendswith her anymore, right,
because she wasn't one of thecool kids and so there was grief
there because I was lettingthat friendship go.
It wasn't dramatic or there wasno like.
I'm thinking of those Lifetimemovies where a friend confronts
(38:10):
you and is like I can't believeyou didn't talk to me.
There was none of that.
It just happened and ended andthat was it.
And I proceeded to go down mycool kid path and have very
negative experiences and shecontinued to not, and she went
down her nerdy kid path and hadaccolades and did really well in
(38:30):
life and I clearly made the badchoice, but it was the choice I
made right.
So I'm sure maybe she has griefabout it, maybe it's something
she never thought about again.
But I'm using this examplebecause there are so many and so
many different reasons why andjust like it's not a lifetime
(38:54):
movie, I can't imagine myselfreaching out to this person and
being like hey, I'm really sorrythat I stopped talking to you
back then, because it would justbe weird.
It's been over 40 years.
Like, who's doing that?
Nobody's doing that.
This person, I'm sure doesn'tcare.
I'm sure it was important atthe time but doesn't matter now.
It's more of talking about itbecause it is a fact of life,
(39:18):
like we grow apart.
It's really true.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I think your window of opportunity has definitely
closed on that.
Yeah, I've had a couple offriendships myself that have
ended, and the friend that I wastalking about earlier, where we
would call each other and justcollude about how hard life was
and just validate each other'sstories all the time.
We were friends from like sixthor seventh grade all through
(39:48):
into my thirties.
It was a very long friendship,like we had our kids together,
and I really think that shebrought me to my spiritual path.
She did a program that Iwatched her go through and then
I went through it and and assoon as I signed up for that
program and did it, we werenever friends again.
(40:08):
Like the friendship ended.
She kind of cut me out, kind oflike you're a story, except I
was your friend.
She just cut me out Kind oflike you're a story, except I
was your friend.
She just cut me out and I thinkwe were growing in different
directions and it was painful.
It was painful that she cut meout because I didn't really get
a reason and I tried to reachout to her and apologize and she
(40:32):
didn't want any part of it andthat was it.
It was done.
We were friends for over 20years and then it was just done
and there's grief in my heartabout that and I also feel the
rightness of it.
We were just friends for thatpoint and I think it's actually
quite beautiful that she led meto my spiritual path in a way.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
I just thought it sounds beautiful, like painful
and so beautiful.
Yeah, it has me think ofromantic relationships where
they end and they're not endingbecause you don't love each
other anymore.
Maybe you just want differentthings from life or you want to
go in different paths.
Maybe you want to get married,he doesn't want to get married.
(41:13):
Or he wants to get married, youdon't want to get married.
Or he wants to have kids, youdon't want kids.
You want to get married, hedoesn't want to get married.
Or he wants to get married, youdon't want to get married.
Or he wants to have kids.
You don't want kids.
You want kids, he doesn't.
You want to live in a warmplace, he wants to snowboard.
I don't know, but things happenin romantic relationship and
they can also happen infriendships.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Absolutely, and what I'm thinking as you're speaking
is how usually I mean I knowthat people ghost each other all
the time in romanticrelationships.
It's more of a more currentthing than how it used to be,
but we generally end ourromantic relationships early,
intentionally.
We're like I'm done with you orsome version of that, whatever
(41:53):
it is.
But with our friendships,female friendships I don't know
that we really do that, that wesit down and really say you know
, it's not you, it's me, and Idon't want to be friends with
you anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I don't think that people do, that you have.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, do you want to say more?
What was that like?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
So one of my friends and I had a falling out and I
needed to forgive her, and itwas at a time in my life where
forgiveness wasn't really athing for me.
I am more of an avoidant.
I tend if anybody's read theattachment books, I would
(42:38):
definitely say I am moreavoidant than attached or
anxious attached or even thoughthey say anxiousness is
underneath it.
And so I was so angry and Ijust couldn't trust her the same
.
And so there was a day that wewere talking and she was like we
(42:59):
don't, and she's sort of likeletting me know all the places
where we're not who we were, andI just had to own that I could
no longer be that friend for her.
And so that's what I said.
I said I don't think I'm asgood a friend as you are.
(43:19):
It's not something that'swithin my realm or range to do.
I can't be that person.
And I had to own it and behonest about it.
No judgment, no, like you did,da, da, da.
And I I was like, oh wow, Ireally see that I can't get past
this one for whatever reason.
And we did sort of make up andkind of try here and there, and
(43:44):
the interesting thing is, I loveher to death.
I do miss her and I recognizethat.
I just have a different lifenow and friendships look
different to me now than theydid then.
And if I'm going to beintentional about my friendships
(44:05):
, then I need to be honest withmyself about that, about how far
or who I'm willing to be inrelationship with, in deep
relationship with.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
That's a really beautiful story.
I really love that.
You don't usually hear somebodysaying you're a better friend
than me.
I can't be that kind of friend.
Usually it's the opposite.
You know exalting yourselfabout how great you are and the
other person isn't quite showingup.
So I think that was reallybeautiful and honest of you and
(44:41):
I appreciate you sharing it.
Thank you.
I want to highlight how painfulit is when friendships might end
.
It can be really painful whenfriendships might end.
It can be really painful, andnot only when they end but when
there's conflict.
I know that sometimes when I'vehad conflict with friends or a
(45:01):
misunderstanding, whatever it is, it just messes me up honestly,
like I need to clear that withthe person.
It just messes me up.
It like throws me off balance,like something's not in
alignment, like am I okay overhere?
Yes, and I could feel thatsomething's just not quite right
(45:21):
.
And so the power of coming inand cleaning it up, like we've
talked about, or sharingvulnerably, is a really
beautiful part of friendship.
That I don't know that I usedto have that skill at all but
the more authentic we are in ourfriendships and the more we are
(45:44):
showing up as our true selves.
That's imperfect, so there'smore hiccups that are likely to
occur, which means more cleanup.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Definitely more cleanup.
I think there's a lot of powerin being honest when you have a
shortcoming.
So I used to be accused of thisoften, especially in my
twenties.
You talk like a man.
I used to get that a lot.
You talk like a man.
(46:15):
I used to get that a lot, andit's because of the way I listen
so intently and I would just belistening to the other person.
Women tend to interrupt eachother or say, oh yeah, like
these are things that I'velearned to do.
They weren't innate to me.
Innate to me would be you talk,talk, talk, talk, talk and I
have nothing to say the wholetime and I'm just listening and
(46:37):
connecting dots until the end.
And then I have like somethingto say and usually I'm just
listening.
And it was such a thing to workon for me because it was not
well-received at all.
Women would feel uncomfortableor like they were being judged
(46:57):
or I don't know.
It just did not bode well.
So it took some time for me tolearn how to communicate
differently in that way.
And I'm just giggling becausethere has to be room for these
imperfections, these quirks thatwe have, because we're not
robots, we're human beings.
We're not like AI machinesright, like if you ask chat, gpt
(47:21):
, what should I say?
You can get a prompt and youcan text someone back or email
them back.
But these conversations arehappening in real life and so
there's a hiccup or there's a.
Catherine, are you listening?
I'm like I'm here, I'm justlistening.
They're like, well, saysomething.
It sounds like you're not there.
I'm like I'm here, I'mlistening, and so it's taken me
(47:48):
some time to be like okay, okay,uh-huh, to do those, to have
those cues that it just takestime for us to learn.
Where are we falling short?
Where can we not show up andallowing ourselves the grace of
I'm not perfect and oh, wow, Imay have fucked this
(48:14):
relationship, like I may havebeen the one that you know did
not show up for this friendship,and can I exit gracefully or is
there something to be cleanedup?
There is no right, alwaysanswer, and there will be grief
of outgr someone.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
It's just the way it is.
I think if we're growing andlearning and expanding in life
and taking risks and trying newthings, we're always becoming
different versions of ourselves.
We're going to have friendsthat match that version and
that's correct no-transcript andhave a lot of love and
(49:17):
reverence for them for the timeperiod in our life that we had
them, that they served us, andjust let it go.
Let it go in great love.
We don't need to make it wrong.
We don't need to find theperson wrong.
We don't need to find ourselveswrong, wrong.
We don't need to find theperson wrong.
We don't need to find ourselveswrong.
We can just accept it and say,oh, that ended and maybe there's
(49:38):
something there to learn Ithink that's not so easy.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
It's easier said than done to admit that.
I think it's a stronger, it's amore honest pose, especially if
you've been the one.
It's really easy to be theperson throwing stones.
It's different when you live inthat glass house, right?
(50:01):
And so if there's anything thatI want listeners to take away
is please be gentle withyourself here, because there is
grief.
You will grieve.
The relationship, you just will.
Anything that was worth yourtime is going to be painful, and
if it's not painful, then whatthe hell?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
were you doing?
Those are some really beautifultruth bombs.
I want to leave our listenerswith some thoughts.
Finding your people isn't aboutluck, it's about intention.
It's about courage, taking arisk.
It's about trusting yourselfwith your own desire for the
relationships that you want.
(50:40):
And true sisterhood takes time,and when we commit to showing up
authentically and we're willingto unlearn our old patterns and
embrace the ebbs and flows oflife and friendships, we do
create space for the deep,nourishing connections that we
long for.
So maybe you're in a season ofbuilding new friendships, maybe
(51:02):
you're grieving ones that you'velost, or maybe you're just
realizing that true sisterhoodreally starts with how you show
up for yourself.
Wherever you are in thefriendship journey and I believe
that we all are on it you arenot alone in this.
So if today's episode resonatedwith you, catherine, and I
(51:25):
would love, love, love to hearyour thoughts.
We would love for you to shareyour reflections.
Send a message to us onInstagram, desire is Medicine
podcast, leave us a review onApple, or pass the episode along
to a friend who you might wantto share this with.
So until next time, take careand please keep choosing the
(51:47):
connections that nourish you,that nourish you.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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