April 8, 2025 • 40 mins
Have you ever felt like the stock market is rigged against you? Well, you’re not alone in that sentiment, but we’re here to pull back the curtain and show you that it’s all about understanding the rules of the game.
Throughout the episode, we argue that many investors are distracted by the flashy allure of 'instant wealth' while ignoring the real strategies that could lead to sustainable success. We illustrate how knowledge and strategy can turn the tables.
The conversation weaves through the emotional rollercoaster of investing, debunking the idea that markets are inherently unfair. Instead, they emphasize the importance of discipline and a solid investment thesis. By the end of this episode, you’ll be equipped with insights that make you question every investment decision you’ve ever made, and maybe even inspire you to approach your portfolio like a chess game—strategically and with purpose!
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we dive into the misconception that diversification always leads to better investment outcomes, highlighting that understanding the rules of investing is key.
- We explore how many people perceive the stock market as rigged, and how this perception often stems from a lack of knowledge about investment strategies and market dynamics.
- Understanding the importance of having an investment thesis can dramatically improve your investment outcomes, as it helps guide your decisions in a strategic manner.
- The discussion emphasizes the necessity of being disciplined and structured in investing, reinforcing that successful investors are those who play to win rather than play not to lose.
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About Your Co-Hosts:
Travis Maus has been in financial services for over fifteen years. He is a Senior Wealth Manager and Chief Executive Officer at S.E.E.D. Planning Group. Travis also hosts the Unleashing Leadership Podcast, where he dissects some of his favorite books on leadership and how you can apply it to your business or life.
Steve Campbell has over a decade of industry experience and is a Senior Marketing Director at S.E.E.D. Planning Group. Steve also hosts the One Big Thing Podcast, an interview-style show meant to inspire and encourage 30 and 40-year-olds going through difficult seasons of navigating marriage, raising kids, and growing personally.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to Ditch the Suitspodcast, where we share insights
nobody in the financialservices industry wants you to know
about.
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
So buckle up and welcome toDitch the Suits.
(00:21):
Steve, do you think themarkets are rigged?
I think a lot of people feelthat way.
Might be weird for some people.
I don't know.
Let's talk about it.
Let's dig into that.
Okay.
In this episode, we're goingto discuss how most people have been
misled by a term calleddiversification and why their investments,
(00:45):
even when they're managed byan investment manager or a financial
advisor, may actually be at ahuge disadvantage.
So.
So I'm not certain if we wouldcall that rigged.
It's.
We'll foreshadow a little bit.
If you don't know the rules ofa game, a game is always going to
feel like it's rigged against.
You say that right?
(01:07):
If you understand the rules.
I like to play strategy games.
We have game night at myhouse, like, almost every week, very
competitive, and I win all thetime because I really understand
the rules.
And then people are like, oh,this is like rigged.
You just.
It's not fair.
So if you understand therules, the game's not rigged to you.
(01:27):
If somebody else doesn'tunderstand the rules as well as you
do, it's going to be rigged to them.
You're like the Bill Belichickof card games.
Like, you understand the rulesin a way that's annoying playing
against you because you knowthe rule book so well that it's frustrating
trying to compete againstsomebody who knows, if you do this,
I can do this.
And if you don't know that, itcan be like, hey, you're cheating.
(01:51):
No, I just.
I understand how to play.
So I think with investing,there's people that feel the sudden
discomfort of the stockmarket's rigged.
It's all these big CEOs, allthe ultra wealthy people.
When there are rules to howyou play and presets that you can
follow that can help you.
The Tushbush is a play thatthe Philadelphia Eagles use, and
(02:11):
it's one of the reasons whythey won the super bowl this year.
And it's basically anunstoppable play where they can get
one or two yards every time.
And part of the NFL isflipping out, and they're trying
to get a rule passed to outlawthe tush push because it's not.
They don't think it's fair.
And there's nothing illegalabout it.
It's part of the rules.
It's a basically a glorifiedquarterback sneak, but the Eagles
(02:33):
are just the team that haskind of mastered it, so everybody
else thinks it's unfair.
So that's a great example.
If you understand the rulesand what you're allowed to do and
other people don't understandthe rules as good, you could take
advantage of it.
And frankly, that's what mostof investing is, is taking advantage
of how the rules work whereother people don't have a clue.
If other people are beingemotional, you don't be emotional.
(02:55):
You will win.
So this is the third episodein our little miniseries.
We did yyy, we did Na Na Na.
I'm now listening.
And now we're going to do theViolet from Willy Wonka I Want it
all now syndrome.
And the ramifications for howthat kind of leads into these kind
(03:18):
of misunderstanding about diversification.
Yeah.
And, and we know that from podcasting.
If you put Are the markets Rigged?
As your title, there arelisteners that will go out and search
that topic and you may bebrand new to Ditch the Suits.
So if you are welcome, my nameis Steve Campbell.
I serve as the seniormarketing director at Seed Planning
Group.
Travis, who you just heard atthe beginning, is our CEO of Seed
(03:39):
and also the co host of Ditchthe Suits.
And Seed is a fee planningfirm where we have a fiduciary obligation
to work in clients best interests.
And this show is a platformfor us to come on and talk about
the things we talk about everyday with clients and employees to
help empower them and you getthe most from your money in life.
And so when you say is thestock market rig, know that this
has been part of a three part series.
(04:00):
There was two prior episodesthat if you're brand new today, might
want to go back and listen tofirst one talking about just how
sometimes investing can feellike an emotional teenager.
And then in the last episodeTravis kind of gave you strategies
for a buying guide and how tochoose investments.
But let's talk about this bigquestion because I think it's top
of mind.
People are asking it are themarkets rigged and where would be
(04:22):
a good starting point for usto start to address that question.
Let's take a quick break tohear a word from your sponsor.
This episode is brought to youby Seed Planning Group.
If you're looking for a lifegiving experience working with a
financial planner, then Seedis here for you.
Seed is a fee only financialplanning firm with a fiduciary obligation
to put your best interestsfirst if your goal is financial freedom
(04:45):
and independence without salesproducts or really glorified salespeople,
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Today you can visit www.seedpg.com.
that's www.seedpg.com.
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Do you want more of Ditch the Suits?
(05:06):
Well, let's take a break totell you about our Patreon Channel.
If you're wanting moreannouncements, notifications, even
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You'll get notifications ofall episodes right in your inbox.
So visit patreon.com, searchditch the Suits or head to our show
(05:27):
Notes where we got links toour channel.
And I think we talked a lotabout what investing actually means.
In the last episode.
We really talked about, youknow, with the 10 steps of what an
investment is or how aninvestor would look at investing.
So I think that that's areally good guide and that was probably
new for a lot of people.
And most people don't havethat experience.
(05:48):
They don't have the experienceof when the market goes down, understanding
exactly what to do and notbeing afraid of it and how that impacts
their portfolio and why theydon't need to blow up their investments
because their investments are broken.
So one of the things that wetry to do when we work with people
is to reshape their, theirunderstanding of things and how it
(06:09):
actually works.
We want to actually teach youthe rules of the game so that you're
playing, you know, with anadvantage against everybody else.
And that's hard.
It's hard work winning becausewhen you win, everybody who's losing
actually is cheering against you.
Most people do not go, oh,you're beating me.
(06:29):
I'm so glad for you.
Most people say, oh, you'rebeating me.
You know, you must be cheatingor, you know, it's rigged against
me.
So that's kind of where thiscomes from.
Investing is basically, youknow, as we talked about two episodes
ago, I think been turned intogambling because everybody wants
these quick results based on timing.
(06:50):
You know, you could do ityourself, you could do it your.
Listen, if everybody can makethese quick decisions and make 10%
a week on their investments,everybody be a billionaire.
Like, like there when somebodygoes on YouTube or Instagram or Facebook
and they've got an ad on thereabout their, how they're a guru with
investing and you should buyPassive investments and make all
(07:10):
this money or just buy goldand all that kind of stuff.
If they were that good, theywouldn't be wasting their time selling
you ads because they'd be sofreaking wealthy that they wouldn't
be talking to anybody abouthow they get wealthy.
The reason why they're outthere talking to people about how
other people can get wealthyis because they're trying to make
money off the other peoplebecause they don't have the money
(07:30):
yet.
People with money don't do that.
You don't see people with money.
You don't see Elon Musk outthere trying to sell you on a passive
investment.
He doesn't give a care in theworld what you invest in.
You did a good job right there.
I felt like you wanted to letloose and you filtered yourself.
Oh, I did good.
But.
But there's probably a couple camps.
And I know because some of youhave called in over the years with
questions.
We have a lot of do ityourselfers that listen to Ditch
(07:51):
the suits.
And so when you talk aboutinvesting, they're in it every day.
They're working the Excelspreadsheet, so they love this topic.
But then you probably have alot of people that have went out
and hired a financial adviser.
Financial professional.
One of the thoughts that Ihave, just think about your experience
dealing with a professional.
When things are good, youprobably meet far less with that
individual.
When things are rocky, when itlooks like the market's going down,
(08:13):
when you feel like you'relosing money, you're probably making
more phone calls, sending moreemails, and wanting to meet more
frequently.
And I think that's becausewhen you deal with somebody who's
managing money or choosingmanagers, if the stock market is
acting appropriately, yourteenagers doing what they're supposed
to, you're not paying as muchof attention because the pain isn't
as real.
Right.
When you come in and you dealwith somebody, it's, how's the kids?
(08:35):
How's the family?
Oh, we made 8%.
And you move on.
Are we really doing deep divesinto the intricacies of what we're
actually invested in?
Because is there also anopportunity loss that we're not taking
advantage of?
Like you said a few episodesago, if you made 5%, is that good
in context to what you couldhave done without reaching?
But just understanding, likewe said at the beginning of this
(08:56):
episode, if you understand therules of the game, are there different
strategies you could haveimplemented to possibly yield a greater
return without necessarilyratcheting up the risk?
So Couple of camps coming intoit today.
I think you can take thisconversation to doing it yourself
or back to a professional tohold yourself accountable or hold
somebody else.
Well, let's, let's, let's,let's start with the do it yourselfers.
(09:18):
Let's give them some respectbecause there are some people that
put the discipline in, put thetime in, do a great job and do a
great job and get some reallywonderful results.
I've known people like thatand I've worked with people where
they're doing their own thingand I'm like, you're doing it good
enough, man.
You don't need to hire somebody.
You've got to figure it out.
Yep.
But it's a minority.
And the problem is, is thenother people, you know, that they
(09:40):
come in, they're like, youcould do it yourself too.
And it's like, no, there'ssomething unique about you that's
allowing you to do it by yourself.
There's a certain interest ina certain way that you see the world
normally.
The people who really do itwell by themselves are people who
really understand business.
Because again, investing isabout businesses.
People don't understand thatinvesting is all about choosing businesses
(10:01):
that are going to be aroundlong term that make a lot of money.
That's what it's about.
And so if you don't understandbusiness, you have no business investing.
That's where you should go andbuy that index fund.
Right.
Because then you don't have toknow anything about business.
You just buy one of everythingand it makes it easier for you.
But there are do ityourselfers out there who do a very
good job because they're verystructured, they're very disciplined,
(10:23):
they understand business andthey're buying companies that they
think run good businesses andhave good long term prospects and
they're trying to buy them atgood prices.
Wonderful.
And they do a great job.
So.
And I think for them this willbe reinforcing and maybe give them
some tidbits.
And our last episode I thinkdefinitely would be supportive of
that.
But the vast majority ofpeople out there don't have the time
(10:44):
or the interest or theperspective to do that.
They have different ideas ofwhat investing might be about.
And that's where it gets intomore of that organized gambling or
trying to find formulas.
A lot of people, you see theadvertisements for AI and AIs crack
the code and you could turn30,000 into a hundred thousand in
30 days and all that kind of stuff.
(11:05):
There is no preordainedpattern for investing what happens
in the market on a day to daybasis is based on what happens tomorrow.
And you don't know what'sgoing to happen tomorrow.
And there's so many thingsthat are happening tomorrow that
could influence how the marketmoves or how a particular company
moves.
And there's no way that you orany computer system is privy to all
(11:28):
that information.
So what is going to happentomorrow will not meet expectations
consistently.
So you have to keep that in mind.
And there is no silver bullet.
There's no specialspreadsheet, there's no special price
targets, there's nothing like that.
That is surefire way to make money.
And so a lot of times do ityourselfers believe that they found
(11:48):
the surefire way to do it.
What you have found if you arebeing successful over time is discipline
and structure.
The same way that you wouldhave been successful as a professional
athlete or as a professionalin your field of choice.
Structure, discipline, rinseand repeat.
That's how they're getting ahead.
But we're here today to talkabout the I want it all now syndrome.
(12:14):
Anybody?
You coach a lot of sports, right?
Any spoiled kids on any of theteams that you coach?
Oh yeah.
Okay, so.
And you can spot them easily.
Okay, so how do you spot aspoiled child?
Not to get you into anytrouble with some parents that might
be interesting.
A lot of it's attitude,entitlement, feeling.
(12:35):
They deserve more than otherplayers even if they're not putting
in the work.
There's a, there's an airabout them that's very not team centric.
It's very me centric.
How about the parents withspoiled children?
Because a lot of times myexperience in coaching as parents
are worse than the kids.
Well, they're either one oftwo things.
They're either empowering orthey're silent.
Gotcha.
Right.
You, you typically don't finda spoiled athlete that has a very
(12:58):
committed parent that'swilling to course correct when they
need to.
You either have a parent thatfeeds that and fuels that or a parent
who just feels like, I don'twant to deal with that.
You're the coach.
I'm gonna cross my arms andlet the kid run amok on the field.
Right, Right.
And so that's not helpful.
I talk to people all the timeand it's, and it's interesting to
me because almost everybody Italk to when they talk about their
(13:18):
kids or their grandkids, Idon't know how many kids and grandkids
I have of people that I'veworked with that are all the greatest
musician, athlete, ballerina,you name it, right?
They're all the best atwhatever they do.
And I'm sure that they'rewonderful and you should be proud
of your children, right?
But you know, let's slow itdown a little bit.
(13:40):
First of all, let the kids be kids.
And second of all, noteverybody's kid has to be the best
at everything and be, be thesuperstar at everything and stuff
like that.
It's just, that's not how it works.
And so the, like the I want itall now syndrome and this is maybe
a bad analogy, but it's the,you know, I want to be the best right
(14:00):
now.
I want everything right now.
And it's like no good thingscome over time.
It's the same thing with thatdo it yourself investor structure
and discipline over and overand over again.
The people who really make itbig and make it long term structure
and discipline are at theheart of it.
So that gets me to, whenyou're a real investor and you look
at your portfolio and you lookat investing, what do you actually
(14:24):
see that's different than whatother people see?
You know, there's noentitlement or anything like that.
There's no, you know, short term.
I need this right now.
What it really comes down tois watch my strategy or my game plan.
That's where your structurecomes in.
What's, what's the path thatI'm going to follow?
How am I going to approachthis game and what happens when,
(14:46):
when I'm against a playerwho's playing with a different strategy.
If you're a chess player,right, like the master chess players,
they adjust to how the otherchess players play.
They're not just going outthere and playing a game plan.
And it doesn't matter what theother player does.
They take a move, the otherplayer takes a move, and they've
all memorized all thesedifferent ways that you can go within
(15:08):
the rules, within, you know, Xamount of moves regarding, depending
on what the other player's doing.
But they don't just disregardwhat the other player is doing and
do their own thing becausethen they could easily lose.
If they have a strategy that'sgoing to win in four terms and the
other player has a strategythat's going to win in three terms,
they better pay attention towhat the other player is doing.
They just have to.
And so a good investor has astrategy or a game plan.
(15:32):
They understand the rules andthey've got to figure it out.
Okay, if I play againstsomebody who goes for this, this
is what I'm going to do.
If I play against somebody whodoes this, this is what I'm going
to do.
It's the same thing with the market.
If the market does this, thisis what I'm going to do.
If the investment that I thinkis a great long term investment has
great leadership, greateconomic mount, all of a sudden there's
a scandal and leadership getsreplaced, this is what I'm going
to do.
Yep.
(15:53):
One of the, the we just.
You and I talked about spoiled kids.
When you coach sports,sometimes you go into drafts and
I think it's easy to find akid who's super talented, but there's
no character.
Right.
And as a coach you have tomake a decision.
Tons of upside, but coulddestroy a team.
Same thing with investing.
We can pick the one that froman eye standpoint looks like it has
(16:15):
upside, but there's nosubstance to it.
As a coach, you'd rather have10 consistent, well groomed players
that can win you games thatplay as a team versus all in.
And when in the last episodeyou talked about leadership structure
when you coach a team, a lotof player evaluation is do we know
anything about the parents?
You talked about leadership of companies.
Sometimes you'll draft 10 kidsbecause the parents are good parents.
(16:37):
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And so sometimes we take theseapproaches, moms and dads to sports
or to raising our own kids.
When you talk aboutconsistency and strategy, is it better
to own 10 companies that haveconsistency or what we hear a lot.
Crypto's the way of the future.
Pot stocks are the way of the future.
I'm going all in on this and that.
So there's a lot of investorsthat are trying to have it all now
(17:00):
by finding lightning in a bottle.
They want all the talentedplayer and they're not looking at
the potential flaws that existthat could go terribly wrong.
Think about the NFL.
So even if you're not afootball fan, a lot of times what
happens is there's different rules.
For once the game is withintwo minutes, Right.
(17:21):
And there's a lot of rules.
There's rules on replay,there's rules on how the clock moves.
If you go out of bounce andstuff depending on what time it,
what, what, what time of thegame it's in that type of thing.
And you consistently see ateam win or lose.
And then there's clockmismanagement as one of the issues.
And it always baffles me whencoaches don't know the rules of the
(17:47):
game in which they are coaching.
It's just, to me, it's justthis where players on the team don't
know the rules of the gamethat they're playing.
Like you're a professional.
Your job is to know the rules.
And I don't expect to losebecause you don't understand the
rules.
I expect to lose becausesomebody outplays us.
(18:07):
I expect to lose becausepossibly there's an error because
errors happen.
But I do not expect to losebecause you don't understand the
rules of the game.
And ultimately, what you'reseeing a lot of times with investing
is people lose because theydon't understand the rules of the
game, not because you knowwhat, they misunderstood something.
Like they read an investmentresearch report and, and had the
(18:30):
wrong impression on who theleader was or what the future was
for that industry or somethinglike, okay, fine, you make a mistake,
you learn from it, or for somereason like that it's because they
didn't understand how priceand value relate to each other or
that there are things likemoats and that individual leadership
is important within a company.
(18:51):
Knowledge that you're going towin some and lose some.
No investor wins 100% of the time.
Warren Buffett doesn't win100% of the time.
Engineers have this problemthe most.
They hate seeing things thatare read on their spreadsheet.
They cannot stand it.
It just.
And, and this tends to be moreof a male problem, I think, because
(19:13):
of the competitive kind of thetestosterone, you know, like, like
alpha type of, you know, like,I can't stand to lose.
That's not how investing works.
Your price fluctuations aregonna happen on investments depending
on the timing of when you'vebought them, you are going to see
red on your statement periodically.
(19:33):
If you take that as a personalaffront in the fact that you can't
stand losing and thatinvestment has to go away.
You have no business lookingat your statements or managing your
investments.
It's just nuts that you wouldeven think you do.
You have to understand you aregonna lose sometimes.
This is why you don't investin just one investment.
You invest in multiple investments.
You have diversificationbecause if you take 10 big bets,
(19:57):
at least one of them is goingto fail.
And that's okay.
In fact, four of them can fail.
Five of them can fail.
Eight of them can faildepending on how good the other two
do.
You have to be comfortablewith the fact that you are going
to lose sometimes.
Football teams, you know, any,any sports teams very rarely go undefeated.
Baseball, they never go undefeated.
(20:18):
Do they play 160 some odd games.
When was the last baseballteam that was the greatest team I've
ever actually went undefeated.
Doesn't happen.
You are gonna lose.
You're gonna have some losers,you're gonna learn things after the
fact.
Or companies, you know, youbuy a company because it looks great,
you buy this amazinginvestment and something happens.
(20:38):
You know, a regulation changesand they lose some of their funding.
And now all of a sudden thebusiness dynamics look horrible or
they lose, you know, they'renot allowed to do business in a certain
place or something.
Or you know, utilitycompanies, the regulate, the state
regulators change the rules inwhich they play and now it no longer
looks like a good investment.
You didn't do a bad job, youdidn't do anything wrong.
(20:59):
You didn't make a bad decision.
What happened is, is the worldhappened, things changed, and now
you have to pivot from that oroh, the, you know, like we were talking
about an episode or two agowith Valero during COVID The price
is way down.
You didn't make a bad investment.
You got Covid happening.
You know, it's like the, it'sthe economy, silly, right?
(21:19):
Like, like you can't changethe fact that Covid is happening,
right?
So what you cannot do is make,is make a reaction to a company for
something that actually hasnothing to do to represent the company.
But you're making a decisionon an outside issue, on what's happening
inside of something.
And so that just becomes avery big issue because people are
(21:41):
just chasing their losses.
They're looking at things andsaying, if I'm making money on it,
I should put more money in it.
No.
Back to coal.
If coal is really expensive,should you really try to buy more?
Probably not.
If coal is really cheap,should you buy more?
Probably so again, it could bethat coal is a great commodity and
great thing to have, but theprices isn't good right now, so you
(22:04):
should wait till the pricegoes down and buy more.
And when the price is up, haveyour reserves so that you don't have
to, you don't have to buy it, right?
Well, in investing, you wantto buy it when the price is really
good.
And when the price is reallyhigh, consider maybe trimming the
top and reaping some of thatreward type of thing.
You have to pick your battlesand your hills to die on.
(22:25):
I see this all the time.
People worry about the wrong things.
I can't buy that companybecause I went into their store and
I had bad customer service.
Really?
That's how you're gonna Decideon a multinational company is because
you had one bad experiencewith a store.
You know, like, that's.
That's, you know, that'sreally where you want to dig in and
say, I can't buy this company,this investment, or, I have to sell
(22:46):
this investment.
But we see it all the time.
People will have the wrongthings that, you know, social issues.
What about, you know, all thefederal layoffs because of Doge and
what's happening with thefederal government right now?
Yeah, what about it?
What's that got to do withwhether or not you should buy Visa
today or whether or not youshould buy Apple or Microsoft?
(23:07):
What's it got to do with anyof that?
Right.
You know, like, because theseare big, emotional things that are
happening to you or happeningin life and you're observing them,
doesn't mean that that's gotto trickle into your portfolio, and
it doesn't mean that it hasanything to do with why your portfolio
is down.
But these things kind of get convoluted.
And so now we're saying, theworld is bad and investing is bad.
I need to take my money out.
(23:28):
And you might be right at theprecipice of the market just exploding
because of a tax overhauldeal, right?
And you got to look past yournose, you know, like, you don't bite
off your nose to spite your face.
But that happens a lot oftimes where we're conflating issues
and we're sticking our flag inthe sand saying, I'm going to die
for this issue, which isessentially what you're saying.
You're not thinking that whenyou're saying it, but that's what
(23:50):
you're actually doing.
And then the last one that Ihad is play to win instead of not
to lose.
My dad taught me this when Iwas a kid, and I had some challenges
in my upbringing.
But one of the things that Iremember him saying that I didn't
understand until I got olderbecause I was always afraid to lose.
If you play afraid to lose,you are going to lose often.
(24:14):
So if you have to be convincedthat you.
That you can win before youplay, you know what I mean?
Like.
Like you're.
You're just gonna.
You're gonna lose more thanyou win.
If you just play to win, yougo out there and say, I'm gonna do
the best as I can.
I'm gonna make the bestdecisions that I can, and I'm gonna
let it hang out.
I'm gonna do everything I canto be successful.
(24:34):
And you know what?
Sometimes I'M gonna lose andthat's okay.
You're gonna win a lot.
But the guy who goes out thereand says, if I lose, look at what
people are gonna think about me.
You know, maybe my, my selfworth will be down.
I'll have less money.
Like in investing, I'll haveless money.
If you're playing with thatattitude, you've already lost.
You should not be managingyour money if you're playing with
(24:56):
the.
The idea is I'm afraid to lose money.
If you're afraid to losemoney, do not manage your own investments
and do not have any say in howyour investments other than the investment
thesis that's followed.
But put somebody in charge ofit that's not afraid to lose because
you're gonna have losers.
Right.
Not even when you have a Superbowl winning football team.
Not everybody on that team wasthe greatest player in the world.
(25:18):
Some of the players, some ofthe guys didn't do good.
Right.
They didn't.
The Chiefs, I think the Chiefs.
No, it was a 49ers.
They kicked a player off theirteam who didn't want to play.
Right.
You're going to have pieces ofyour program that just fail and it's
okay, you move on.
That's why you have tounderstand business and business.
(25:39):
My big advice to people, youknow, a third of what you do is not
going to work out.
It's just not going to workfor whatever reason.
Not because it's always a badidea, but because you try, it doesn't
work out.
You didn't have enough information.
People don't care about it.
But you don't stop trying.
You keep going.
Your portfolio is going to bethe same way.
There's going to be parts init that lose and you're going to
(26:01):
be able to stomach it.
Well, and you had talked aboutto the do it yourselfers that have
done a great job and justwalked through that.
But I'm even thinking aboutthe people that have hired a financial
advisor.
Like how are you keeping thepeople that are managing your money
accountable?
So.
So that you are making goodbusiness decisions with your money.
Right.
And just because somebodymakes you feel good.
(26:22):
Yeah.
Doesn't mean that that alsoequals performance.
And here's this why I wouldsay if you're paying somebody a fee,
they're going to want you tofeel good because they don't want
to.
Well.
And they're salespeople.
They're salespeople.
So.
So just because when you comein, the, the cat pageantry of the
industry that gets you coffeeand asks about your family.
(26:42):
And they speak very littleabout your investments.
But you leave away feeling good.
What if you were actuallymissing out on understanding all
the things you've been walkingus through and owning great companies
and really making gooddecisions and opportunity cost.
Don't wait for the world to goto hell in a handbasket and say what?
What have you been doing allthis time?
Hold the people that you'repaying fees to accountable to make
(27:05):
sure that they're reallylooking at this with your best interests.
But that's the Na na na, Idon't want to hear it.
Yeah.
Episode.
Yep.
Because here's the thing.
If you're working withsomebody or you're going to hire
somebody, you need them toexplain their investment thesis to
you.
And if they say we investaccording to modern portfolio theory,
(27:26):
some bullshit that they gotoff the Internet, if they don't sound
like what we're talking about,the fact that you're buying pieces
of something that's real andyou need to get those things for
a good price, and that's what matters.
And we're looking to buildvalue for you over time.
If they're not talking aboutthose things, they're selling you
somebody else's investment strategy.
(27:47):
There should be an investment thesis.
You should be sitting downwith your investment person and explain
to me the investment thesisand how you're going to handle my
investments.
And they should be talkingabout price and value.
They should be talking abouteconomic advantages.
They should be talking aboutwhat we're going to do in the market's
down, when it's up.
They should be talking aboutwhy this stuff that you're reading
on the news, you know, does ordoesn't impact you.
(28:08):
But this should sound a lotlike some of the stuff that we've
talking about.
And I truly believe that.
And I talk to investors allthe time, people who are managing
endowments and things likethat too.
And they come in and they say,we want you to do XYZ for us.
And the first thing I say is,what's your investment thesis?
Well, we don't have one.
I'm like, well, how could wepossibly build you an investment
program for your organizationif you don't have an investment thesis?
(28:29):
Let's help you start.
There's.
Let's start with yourinvestment thesis.
And that's for people who aremanaging other people or giving advice
to other people.
Now, if you are the type ofperson who is saying, well, I'm coming
to you for advice, I'm buyingyour investment thesis, you need
to have those spider like theBS indicator up.
And if you're getting genericstuff when you Google investing and
(28:51):
it's the top line ofWikipedia, or if you talk to three
different investment peopleand you say, what's your investment
thesis?
And they all give you the samespiel that means not a single one
of them actually has a real thesis.
They're just selling you investments.
They're selling you like youtalked about two episodes ago.
I think SMAs or mutual fundsor stuff like that, they're just
putting you in whatever theyput you in because that's how they
(29:13):
get paid.
It needs to be an intellectualconversation, not one that is using
words that you can.
I don't think I've used asingle term here in the last three
episodes that people can'tunderstand or that we didn't explain,
that goes.
When you hear, you go, okay,that makes sense to me, right?
It's down to earth.
Talk to you like a humanbeing, Explain how it is.
Here's the rules of the game.
(29:33):
Here's how we play within the rules.
Not well, you know, if youreally want more return, you could
buy this structure productover there or that product over there
that creates these K1s and allthese other issues.
And you know, but it's greatbecause you get more income and blah,
blah, blah.
It's like, no, what's theactual investment thesis for how
you're going to manage myportfolio for me.
And, and I would go a step further.
Do your financial planningbefore you do your investment management.
(29:54):
The financial plan gives you aguideline for what you need the investment
program to do for you.
If you don't know what youneed out of the investment program
to meet your financial goals,then how do you have a properly developed
financial plan or investment plan?
So you start with thefinancial plan, understand where
you want to go, and then youlook at your resources and say, can
(30:15):
they help me get there?
Or what do I need to do tohelp me get there?
And that will cut out a lot ofthe garbage that gets sold to people.
I've seen people who, youshould have a retirement annuity.
You should have an index new,that type of thing.
Why do I need that?
Well, because you need guarantees.
It's like, no, you have somuch money that even if you made
5% for the rest of your lifeand spent 6% a year, you'd still
(30:36):
have money left over.
Why would you buy a guarantee?
When you buy a guarantee, yougive up your money, you give up your
principal, you buy a contractwith A third party company.
Why would you do that if youdon't need to do that?
You need to understand therules of the game first.
Before you do that and what'sactually happening, you need to understand
your situation.
What's going on with your situation.
(30:56):
When you talk to investmentpeople, I think it should sound like
us.
You know, I think you shouldlook for somebody who's saying, look,
there's value in everyinvestment that you buy.
There's a reason why you needto, you should be buying that investment.
So if you say why do I own this?
We could actually give you anexplanation of why you own that and
how that relates to yourfinancial situation.
Well, and this is one of thosemoments that if you've been presented
(31:17):
with new information you'venever heard of invest investment
thesis.
What, what do you do with that?
As a listener, you go back toyour professional money managers
or whoever it is and say, talkto me about your investment thesis.
And if they stare at you likedeer in a headlights or say we.
Pick money managers for you.
Right.
There's your spider sense,number one.
So when we have people reachout to us for consulting and Travis
(31:40):
poses a question on what'syour investment thesis?
It's never to trap theindividual or to shame them.
It's because we need to have a guideline.
Going to be hired as afiduciary to say what are we being
held accountable to and what'sthe thesis?
So that we know that we'restaying within.
So that's.
If there's one takeaway fromthis episode.
What is the investment thesisthat either you're following on your
own or that somebody thatyou're paying a fee, what are they
(32:02):
following?
So I'm going to let you finishhere on these last parts and just.
Let me make a point on that too.
I don't mean that in any way negative.
I.
To me, it's a wonderful thingto have a conversation with somebody
about what your investment thesis.
And if you don't have one, areyou going to use ours?
Or, or do you need us to helpyou design one that works for you
and your situation?
(32:25):
Because what that does is thatcreates the guidelines for how the
management happens.
Right.
If you don't have it, if youdon't have a thesis, how do you create
the structure and the discipline?
Yep.
Right.
You have to have that guiding principle.
And that's what your thesis is.
It's my guiding principle.
I believe in index investing.
I believe in individual equities.
That's your thesis.
Now how do we create structurearound that.
(32:45):
So that's why that's so important.
Some people might call itinvestment policy statement.
That's more of a rule book.
The thesis is kind of whatthat investment policy statement
is designed to actually drive.
Right?
Here's, here's what I wouldsay, because I think that this has
been a great discussion today.
If you look at every very,very successful investment manager
(33:10):
and hedge fund guy, pickanyone you want.
Ackerman, Buffett, not asingle one of them got rich investing
in the index.
None of them did.
Dalio, he didn't.
He didn't buy the.
That's not how he made his money.
They made money by buyingindividual companies, understanding
the companies and theireconomic advantages and their leadership
teams, and that's how theymade their money.
(33:32):
All the really, really wealthypeople got rich investing.
Jeff Bezos invested in his own company.
Elon Musk invested in his own companies.
Right.
That's how they got rich inindividual companies, not in the
average of how everything does.
And so if you're thinking,well, nobody can do it, but that's
(33:55):
how all the really wealthypeople did it.
And if you say, well, I heardWarren Buffett talking or I heard
Kramer talking or any of theseother, you know, talking heads talk,
and they said that, you know,I should buy the index, the reason
why they're saying that isbecause they don't believe that you
have the structure and thediscipline to do what they do.
And they're a hundred percentright in most cases, because you
(34:18):
not only have to havestructure and discipline, but you
have to understand business.
And if you don't understandbusiness, if you don't have structure
and you don't have discipline,you're not going to be able to do
what they've done.
It'll be a pipe dream.
So you're just not going toget there.
So their answer to you then isbuy the s and P500 so that you don't
have to worry about it.
(34:38):
Because it's dangerous to buythings you don't understand.
It's dangerous not to be disciplined.
It's dangerous not tounderstand the rules of the game.
That's where you can get wiped out.
When somebody says, yeah, Iknow a guy, he went to financial
advisor.
He lost all his money becausehe was investing with somebody who
didn't have a good thesis.
He was investing with somebodythat was taking bad bets.
He didn't understand the rulesof the game.
(34:59):
Right.
He didn't understand how the,the financial.
Not every financial advisor isthe same.
Yep, you can go out and get a broker.
When you get a broker, aregistered representative with a
company, you give thempermission to buy or sell something.
In fact, a lot of investmentadvisor representatives, so called
fiduciaries, if they don'thave discretionary authority, what
happens is they come to youand say, we think we should do this.
(35:20):
They sell you an idea and yousay, go ahead and do it.
They have shifted 100% of theliability to you.
And when it doesn't work outand you lose your money because you
buy a stock or some kind ofinvestment and blows up on you, they
say, but you gave uspermission to buy it.
You're the final decisionmaker, not us.
All we do is present the ideato you and it happens over and over
(35:41):
and over.
And then you hear about, well,you know, so and so was investing
with somebody that lost alltheir money.
You didn't understand what therules were even with the people you
were working with.
So you gotta understand therules of the game.
But just think about that likethat every billionaire you've ever
heard of, not a single onegot, became a billionaire.
LeBron James not a billionairebecause, or Michael Jordan not a
billionaire because of indexfunds or mutual funds in general.
(36:03):
None of them are.
They buy companies, they goout and they get a good price on
things.
They buy it, they make surethey have good leadership in place
and they make a ton of moneyon it.
And they still buy losers,they still fail.
There's still things in theirportfolios that don't work out you
can talk to.
I'm sure that you can look atBuffett's history and you'll find
(36:25):
things that lost money.
Well, and I think that's partof the exciting part is how you've
tried to bring to reality thefact that if you're an investor,
you have an opportunity in afree market to go buy a cut of a
company and own it.
You're, you're not buying thephysical company from Tim Cook, but
(36:48):
you can own a part of Apple.
If you believe in theirmission and what they're doing.
You are buying a part of thephysical company from whoever owns
it.
I mean you like a share of a company.
If there's a million shares ofa company, that means there's a million
equal pieces of the company.
When you buy one, you arebuying an equal piece of the company.
Which means, you know, you,you can't necessarily go and like,
(37:10):
because you own one millionthof the company, like just walk into
its building.
Like you own the place.
You got to own a Lot more.
That's more what I wasalluding to.
But you have an investor havean opportunity to do that, and you
can make money.
You can make money by puttingyour money behind companies that
have strong visions for wherethey're going, and you can reap the
benefits of that.
And so investing.
You can say, the stockmarket's rigged, which is being the
(37:33):
parent on the sideline thatsays, my kid's out of control, you
fix him.
Or you can be the parent whosays, this might be a little rough
for a little bit, but I wantto course correct so that the character's
there.
Yeah.
Because over the long run, Iwant to have the best darn kid I
can.
If you're going to play astrategy game against me.
Yeah, I've done that.
Right.
Do not complain if I beat youbecause I do something that you didn't
(37:53):
know you could do.
Read the instructions.
Right.
Like the market.
The answer to this is themarket's not actually rigged.
The real answer is that youneed to be a student of the game.
That's the only way that thatthat's how you win is you have to
be a dedicated student on the game.
You have to understand all the rules.
(38:14):
You have to have structure,you have to have discipline.
You have to play to win.
You have to understand business.
You have to be a student ofthe actual game you're playing.
You can't.
If you lose the game over andover and over again and you don't
relook at your strategy andyour discipline, that's not a market
problem.
That's a you problem.
(38:34):
I love when I play games withpeople and they every single game
is the same exact strategy.
They do the same thing overand over and over again.
No matter how I beat them,because all I have to do is adjust
and I can beat them.
That's a them problem.
If they want to win, they gotto do something.
They got to take a chance, trysomething, not be afraid to lose.
Oh, if I don't play like this,I can't win.
Well, you can't win like that either.
(38:55):
So either play to win, youknow, or sit there and get upset
when you lose over and over again.
Yeah, well, hey, if this wasyour first interaction because you
looked up, is the stock market rigged?
And you happen to stumble uponditch the suits.
Travis and I always presentseries, usually two or three episodes
around topics.
This was our investmentseries, investing.
(39:15):
So go back, listen to theprevious two episodes.
But as a reminder, you canalso visit our Patreon channel.
Subscribe to Ditch the Suit sothat you can get live inbox updates
about new episodes.
We just appreciate you beingour guest.
And until next time, thanksfor checking out Ditch the Suits.
Thanks for checking out Ditchthe Suits.
Be sure to write a review ordrop a comment about this episode.
And if you want more likethis, head over to Ditch suits dot
(39:37):
com.
You can send us a message andget in touch.
Let us know how we can help,and be sure to share any topics you'd
be interested in having uscover on the show.
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
Thanks for being our guest andchecking out Ditch the Suits.
Foreign.
Welcome to Ditch the Suitspodcast, where we share insights
nobody in the financialservices industry wants you to know
about.
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
So buckle up and welcome toDitch the Suits.
(00:21):
Steve, do you think themarkets are rigged?
I think a lot of people feelthat way.
Might be weird for some people.
I don't know.
Let's talk about it.
Let's dig into that.
Okay.
In this episode, we're goingto discuss how most people have been
misled by a term calleddiversification and why their investments,
(00:45):
even when they're managed byan investment manager or a financial
advisor, may actually be at ahuge disadvantage.
So.
So I'm not certain if we wouldcall that rigged.
It's.
We'll foreshadow a little bit.
If you don't know the rules ofa game, a game is always going to
feel like it's rigged against.
You say that right?
(01:07):
If you understand the rules.
I like to play strategy games.
We have game night at myhouse, like, almost every week, very
competitive, and I win all thetime because I really understand
the rules.
And then people are like, oh,this is like rigged.
You just.
It's not fair.
So if you understand therules, the game's not rigged to you.
(01:27):
If somebody else doesn'tunderstand the rules as well as you
do, it's going to be rigged to them.
You're like the Bill Belichickof card games.
Like, you understand the rulesin a way that's annoying playing
against you because you knowthe rule book so well that it's frustrating
trying to compete againstsomebody who knows, if you do this,
I can do this.
And if you don't know that, itcan be like, hey, you're cheating.
(01:51):
No, I just.
I understand how to play.
So I think with investing,there's people that feel the sudden
discomfort of the stockmarket's rigged.
It's all these big CEOs, allthe ultra wealthy people.
When there are rules to howyou play and presets that you can
follow that can help you.
The Tushbush is a play thatthe Philadelphia Eagles use, and
(02:11):
it's one of the reasons whythey won the super bowl this year.
And it's basically anunstoppable play where they can get
one or two yards every time.
And part of the NFL isflipping out, and they're trying
to get a rule passed to outlawthe tush push because it's not.
They don't think it's fair.
And there's nothing illegalabout it.
It's part of the rules.
It's a basically a glorifiedquarterback sneak, but the Eagles
(02:33):
are just the team that haskind of mastered it, so everybody
else thinks it's unfair.
So that's a great example.
If you understand the rulesand what you're allowed to do and
other people don't understandthe rules as good, you could take
advantage of it.
And frankly, that's what mostof investing is, is taking advantage
of how the rules work whereother people don't have a clue.
If other people are beingemotional, you don't be emotional.
(02:55):
You will win.
So this is the third episodein our little miniseries.
We did yyy, we did Na Na Na.
I'm now listening.
And now we're going to do theViolet from Willy Wonka I Want it
all now syndrome.
And the ramifications for howthat kind of leads into these kind
(03:18):
of misunderstanding about diversification.
Yeah.
And, and we know that from podcasting.
If you put Are the markets Rigged?
As your title, there arelisteners that will go out and search
that topic and you may bebrand new to Ditch the Suits.
So if you are welcome, my nameis Steve Campbell.
I serve as the seniormarketing director at Seed Planning
Group.
Travis, who you just heard atthe beginning, is our CEO of Seed
(03:39):
and also the co host of Ditchthe Suits.
And Seed is a fee planningfirm where we have a fiduciary obligation
to work in clients best interests.
And this show is a platformfor us to come on and talk about
the things we talk about everyday with clients and employees to
help empower them and you getthe most from your money in life.
And so when you say is thestock market rig, know that this
has been part of a three part series.
(04:00):
There was two prior episodesthat if you're brand new today, might
want to go back and listen tofirst one talking about just how
sometimes investing can feellike an emotional teenager.
And then in the last episodeTravis kind of gave you strategies
for a buying guide and how tochoose investments.
But let's talk about this bigquestion because I think it's top
of mind.
People are asking it are themarkets rigged and where would be
(04:22):
a good starting point for usto start to address that question.
Let's take a quick break tohear a word from your sponsor.
This episode is brought to youby Seed Planning Group.
If you're looking for a lifegiving experience working with a
financial planner, then Seedis here for you.
Seed is a fee only financialplanning firm with a fiduciary obligation
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(04:45):
and independence without salesproducts or really glorified salespeople,
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Today you can visit www.seedpg.com.
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Do you want more of Ditch the Suits?
(05:06):
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(05:27):
Notes where we got links toour channel.
And I think we talked a lotabout what investing actually means.
In the last episode.
We really talked about, youknow, with the 10 steps of what an
investment is or how aninvestor would look at investing.
So I think that that's areally good guide and that was probably
new for a lot of people.
And most people don't havethat experience.
(05:48):
They don't have the experienceof when the market goes down, understanding
exactly what to do and notbeing afraid of it and how that impacts
their portfolio and why theydon't need to blow up their investments
because their investments are broken.
So one of the things that wetry to do when we work with people
is to reshape their, theirunderstanding of things and how it
(06:09):
actually works.
We want to actually teach youthe rules of the game so that you're
playing, you know, with anadvantage against everybody else.
And that's hard.
It's hard work winning becausewhen you win, everybody who's losing
actually is cheering against you.
Most people do not go, oh,you're beating me.
(06:29):
I'm so glad for you.
Most people say, oh, you'rebeating me.
You know, you must be cheatingor, you know, it's rigged against
me.
So that's kind of where thiscomes from.
Investing is basically, youknow, as we talked about two episodes
ago, I think been turned intogambling because everybody wants
these quick results based on timing.
(06:50):
You know, you could do ityourself, you could do it your.
Listen, if everybody can makethese quick decisions and make 10%
a week on their investments,everybody be a billionaire.
Like, like there when somebodygoes on YouTube or Instagram or Facebook
and they've got an ad on thereabout their, how they're a guru with
investing and you should buyPassive investments and make all
(07:10):
this money or just buy goldand all that kind of stuff.
If they were that good, theywouldn't be wasting their time selling
you ads because they'd be sofreaking wealthy that they wouldn't
be talking to anybody abouthow they get wealthy.
The reason why they're outthere talking to people about how
other people can get wealthyis because they're trying to make
money off the other peoplebecause they don't have the money
(07:30):
yet.
People with money don't do that.
You don't see people with money.
You don't see Elon Musk outthere trying to sell you on a passive
investment.
He doesn't give a care in theworld what you invest in.
You did a good job right there.
I felt like you wanted to letloose and you filtered yourself.
Oh, I did good.
But.
But there's probably a couple camps.
And I know because some of youhave called in over the years with
questions.
We have a lot of do ityourselfers that listen to Ditch
(07:51):
the suits.
And so when you talk aboutinvesting, they're in it every day.
They're working the Excelspreadsheet, so they love this topic.
But then you probably have alot of people that have went out
and hired a financial adviser.
Financial professional.
One of the thoughts that Ihave, just think about your experience
dealing with a professional.
When things are good, youprobably meet far less with that
individual.
When things are rocky, when itlooks like the market's going down,
(08:13):
when you feel like you'relosing money, you're probably making
more phone calls, sending moreemails, and wanting to meet more
frequently.
And I think that's becausewhen you deal with somebody who's
managing money or choosingmanagers, if the stock market is
acting appropriately, yourteenagers doing what they're supposed
to, you're not paying as muchof attention because the pain isn't
as real.
Right.
When you come in and you dealwith somebody, it's, how's the kids?
(08:35):
How's the family?
Oh, we made 8%.
And you move on.
Are we really doing deep divesinto the intricacies of what we're
actually invested in?
Because is there also anopportunity loss that we're not taking
advantage of?
Like you said a few episodesago, if you made 5%, is that good
in context to what you couldhave done without reaching?
But just understanding, likewe said at the beginning of this
(08:56):
episode, if you understand therules of the game, are there different
strategies you could haveimplemented to possibly yield a greater
return without necessarilyratcheting up the risk?
So Couple of camps coming intoit today.
I think you can take thisconversation to doing it yourself
or back to a professional tohold yourself accountable or hold
somebody else.
Well, let's, let's, let's,let's start with the do it yourselfers.
(09:18):
Let's give them some respectbecause there are some people that
put the discipline in, put thetime in, do a great job and do a
great job and get some reallywonderful results.
I've known people like thatand I've worked with people where
they're doing their own thingand I'm like, you're doing it good
enough, man.
You don't need to hire somebody.
You've got to figure it out.
Yep.
But it's a minority.
And the problem is, is thenother people, you know, that they
(09:40):
come in, they're like, youcould do it yourself too.
And it's like, no, there'ssomething unique about you that's
allowing you to do it by yourself.
There's a certain interest ina certain way that you see the world
normally.
The people who really do itwell by themselves are people who
really understand business.
Because again, investing isabout businesses.
People don't understand thatinvesting is all about choosing businesses
(10:01):
that are going to be aroundlong term that make a lot of money.
That's what it's about.
And so if you don't understandbusiness, you have no business investing.
That's where you should go andbuy that index fund.
Right.
Because then you don't have toknow anything about business.
You just buy one of everythingand it makes it easier for you.
But there are do ityourselfers out there who do a very
good job because they're verystructured, they're very disciplined,
(10:23):
they understand business andthey're buying companies that they
think run good businesses andhave good long term prospects and
they're trying to buy them atgood prices.
Wonderful.
And they do a great job.
So.
And I think for them this willbe reinforcing and maybe give them
some tidbits.
And our last episode I thinkdefinitely would be supportive of
that.
But the vast majority ofpeople out there don't have the time
(10:44):
or the interest or theperspective to do that.
They have different ideas ofwhat investing might be about.
And that's where it gets intomore of that organized gambling or
trying to find formulas.
A lot of people, you see theadvertisements for AI and AIs crack
the code and you could turn30,000 into a hundred thousand in
30 days and all that kind of stuff.
(11:05):
There is no preordainedpattern for investing what happens
in the market on a day to daybasis is based on what happens tomorrow.
And you don't know what'sgoing to happen tomorrow.
And there's so many thingsthat are happening tomorrow that
could influence how the marketmoves or how a particular company
moves.
And there's no way that you orany computer system is privy to all
(11:28):
that information.
So what is going to happentomorrow will not meet expectations
consistently.
So you have to keep that in mind.
And there is no silver bullet.
There's no specialspreadsheet, there's no special price
targets, there's nothing like that.
That is surefire way to make money.
And so a lot of times do ityourselfers believe that they found
(11:48):
the surefire way to do it.
What you have found if you arebeing successful over time is discipline
and structure.
The same way that you wouldhave been successful as a professional
athlete or as a professionalin your field of choice.
Structure, discipline, rinseand repeat.
That's how they're getting ahead.
But we're here today to talkabout the I want it all now syndrome.
(12:14):
Anybody?
You coach a lot of sports, right?
Any spoiled kids on any of theteams that you coach?
Oh yeah.
Okay, so.
And you can spot them easily.
Okay, so how do you spot aspoiled child?
Not to get you into anytrouble with some parents that might
be interesting.
A lot of it's attitude,entitlement, feeling.
(12:35):
They deserve more than otherplayers even if they're not putting
in the work.
There's a, there's an airabout them that's very not team centric.
It's very me centric.
How about the parents withspoiled children?
Because a lot of times myexperience in coaching as parents
are worse than the kids.
Well, they're either one oftwo things.
They're either empowering orthey're silent.
Gotcha.
Right.
You, you typically don't finda spoiled athlete that has a very
(12:58):
committed parent that'swilling to course correct when they
need to.
You either have a parent thatfeeds that and fuels that or a parent
who just feels like, I don'twant to deal with that.
You're the coach.
I'm gonna cross my arms andlet the kid run amok on the field.
Right, Right.
And so that's not helpful.
I talk to people all the timeand it's, and it's interesting to
me because almost everybody Italk to when they talk about their
(13:18):
kids or their grandkids, Idon't know how many kids and grandkids
I have of people that I'veworked with that are all the greatest
musician, athlete, ballerina,you name it, right?
They're all the best atwhatever they do.
And I'm sure that they'rewonderful and you should be proud
of your children, right?
But you know, let's slow itdown a little bit.
(13:40):
First of all, let the kids be kids.
And second of all, noteverybody's kid has to be the best
at everything and be, be thesuperstar at everything and stuff
like that.
It's just, that's not how it works.
And so the, like the I want itall now syndrome and this is maybe
a bad analogy, but it's the,you know, I want to be the best right
(14:00):
now.
I want everything right now.
And it's like no good thingscome over time.
It's the same thing with thatdo it yourself investor structure
and discipline over and overand over again.
The people who really make itbig and make it long term structure
and discipline are at theheart of it.
So that gets me to, whenyou're a real investor and you look
at your portfolio and you lookat investing, what do you actually
(14:24):
see that's different than whatother people see?
You know, there's noentitlement or anything like that.
There's no, you know, short term.
I need this right now.
What it really comes down tois watch my strategy or my game plan.
That's where your structurecomes in.
What's, what's the path thatI'm going to follow?
How am I going to approachthis game and what happens when,
(14:46):
when I'm against a playerwho's playing with a different strategy.
If you're a chess player,right, like the master chess players,
they adjust to how the otherchess players play.
They're not just going outthere and playing a game plan.
And it doesn't matter what theother player does.
They take a move, the otherplayer takes a move, and they've
all memorized all thesedifferent ways that you can go within
(15:08):
the rules, within, you know, Xamount of moves regarding, depending
on what the other player's doing.
But they don't just disregardwhat the other player is doing and
do their own thing becausethen they could easily lose.
If they have a strategy that'sgoing to win in four terms and the
other player has a strategythat's going to win in three terms,
they better pay attention towhat the other player is doing.
They just have to.
And so a good investor has astrategy or a game plan.
(15:32):
They understand the rules andthey've got to figure it out.
Okay, if I play againstsomebody who goes for this, this
is what I'm going to do.
If I play against somebody whodoes this, this is what I'm going
to do.
It's the same thing with the market.
If the market does this, thisis what I'm going to do.
If the investment that I thinkis a great long term investment has
great leadership, greateconomic mount, all of a sudden there's
a scandal and leadership getsreplaced, this is what I'm going
to do.
Yep.
(15:53):
One of the, the we just.
You and I talked about spoiled kids.
When you coach sports,sometimes you go into drafts and
I think it's easy to find akid who's super talented, but there's
no character.
Right.
And as a coach you have tomake a decision.
Tons of upside, but coulddestroy a team.
Same thing with investing.
We can pick the one that froman eye standpoint looks like it has
(16:15):
upside, but there's nosubstance to it.
As a coach, you'd rather have10 consistent, well groomed players
that can win you games thatplay as a team versus all in.
And when in the last episodeyou talked about leadership structure
when you coach a team, a lotof player evaluation is do we know
anything about the parents?
You talked about leadership of companies.
Sometimes you'll draft 10 kidsbecause the parents are good parents.
(16:37):
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And so sometimes we take theseapproaches, moms and dads to sports
or to raising our own kids.
When you talk aboutconsistency and strategy, is it better
to own 10 companies that haveconsistency or what we hear a lot.
Crypto's the way of the future.
Pot stocks are the way of the future.
I'm going all in on this and that.
So there's a lot of investorsthat are trying to have it all now
(17:00):
by finding lightning in a bottle.
They want all the talentedplayer and they're not looking at
the potential flaws that existthat could go terribly wrong.
Think about the NFL.
So even if you're not afootball fan, a lot of times what
happens is there's different rules.
For once the game is withintwo minutes, Right.
(17:21):
And there's a lot of rules.
There's rules on replay,there's rules on how the clock moves.
If you go out of bounce andstuff depending on what time it,
what, what, what time of thegame it's in that type of thing.
And you consistently see ateam win or lose.
And then there's clockmismanagement as one of the issues.
And it always baffles me whencoaches don't know the rules of the
(17:47):
game in which they are coaching.
It's just, to me, it's justthis where players on the team don't
know the rules of the gamethat they're playing.
Like you're a professional.
Your job is to know the rules.
And I don't expect to losebecause you don't understand the
rules.
I expect to lose becausesomebody outplays us.
(18:07):
I expect to lose becausepossibly there's an error because
errors happen.
But I do not expect to losebecause you don't understand the
rules of the game.
And ultimately, what you'reseeing a lot of times with investing
is people lose because theydon't understand the rules of the
game, not because you knowwhat, they misunderstood something.
Like they read an investmentresearch report and, and had the
(18:30):
wrong impression on who theleader was or what the future was
for that industry or somethinglike, okay, fine, you make a mistake,
you learn from it, or for somereason like that it's because they
didn't understand how priceand value relate to each other or
that there are things likemoats and that individual leadership
is important within a company.
(18:51):
Knowledge that you're going towin some and lose some.
No investor wins 100% of the time.
Warren Buffett doesn't win100% of the time.
Engineers have this problemthe most.
They hate seeing things thatare read on their spreadsheet.
They cannot stand it.
It just.
And, and this tends to be moreof a male problem, I think, because
(19:13):
of the competitive kind of thetestosterone, you know, like, like
alpha type of, you know, like,I can't stand to lose.
That's not how investing works.
Your price fluctuations aregonna happen on investments depending
on the timing of when you'vebought them, you are going to see
red on your statement periodically.
(19:33):
If you take that as a personalaffront in the fact that you can't
stand losing and thatinvestment has to go away.
You have no business lookingat your statements or managing your
investments.
It's just nuts that you wouldeven think you do.
You have to understand you aregonna lose sometimes.
This is why you don't investin just one investment.
You invest in multiple investments.
You have diversificationbecause if you take 10 big bets,
(19:57):
at least one of them is goingto fail.
And that's okay.
In fact, four of them can fail.
Five of them can fail.
Eight of them can faildepending on how good the other two
do.
You have to be comfortablewith the fact that you are going
to lose sometimes.
Football teams, you know, any,any sports teams very rarely go undefeated.
Baseball, they never go undefeated.
(20:18):
Do they play 160 some odd games.
When was the last baseballteam that was the greatest team I've
ever actually went undefeated.
Doesn't happen.
You are gonna lose.
You're gonna have some losers,you're gonna learn things after the
fact.
Or companies, you know, youbuy a company because it looks great,
you buy this amazinginvestment and something happens.
(20:38):
You know, a regulation changesand they lose some of their funding.
And now all of a sudden thebusiness dynamics look horrible or
they lose, you know, they'renot allowed to do business in a certain
place or something.
Or you know, utilitycompanies, the regulate, the state
regulators change the rules inwhich they play and now it no longer
looks like a good investment.
You didn't do a bad job, youdidn't do anything wrong.
(20:59):
You didn't make a bad decision.
What happened is, is the worldhappened, things changed, and now
you have to pivot from that oroh, the, you know, like we were talking
about an episode or two agowith Valero during COVID The price
is way down.
You didn't make a bad investment.
You got Covid happening.
You know, it's like the, it'sthe economy, silly, right?
(21:19):
Like, like you can't changethe fact that Covid is happening,
right?
So what you cannot do is make,is make a reaction to a company for
something that actually hasnothing to do to represent the company.
But you're making a decisionon an outside issue, on what's happening
inside of something.
And so that just becomes avery big issue because people are
(21:41):
just chasing their losses.
They're looking at things andsaying, if I'm making money on it,
I should put more money in it.
No.
Back to coal.
If coal is really expensive,should you really try to buy more?
Probably not.
If coal is really cheap,should you buy more?
Probably so again, it could bethat coal is a great commodity and
great thing to have, but theprices isn't good right now, so you
(22:04):
should wait till the pricegoes down and buy more.
And when the price is up, haveyour reserves so that you don't have
to, you don't have to buy it, right?
Well, in investing, you wantto buy it when the price is really
good.
And when the price is reallyhigh, consider maybe trimming the
top and reaping some of thatreward type of thing.
You have to pick your battlesand your hills to die on.
(22:25):
I see this all the time.
People worry about the wrong things.
I can't buy that companybecause I went into their store and
I had bad customer service.
Really?
That's how you're gonna Decideon a multinational company is because
you had one bad experiencewith a store.
You know, like, that's.
That's, you know, that'sreally where you want to dig in and
say, I can't buy this company,this investment, or, I have to sell
(22:46):
this investment.
But we see it all the time.
People will have the wrongthings that, you know, social issues.
What about, you know, all thefederal layoffs because of Doge and
what's happening with thefederal government right now?
Yeah, what about it?
What's that got to do withwhether or not you should buy Visa
today or whether or not youshould buy Apple or Microsoft?
(23:07):
What's it got to do with anyof that?
Right.
You know, like, because theseare big, emotional things that are
happening to you or happeningin life and you're observing them,
doesn't mean that that's gotto trickle into your portfolio, and
it doesn't mean that it hasanything to do with why your portfolio
is down.
But these things kind of get convoluted.
And so now we're saying, theworld is bad and investing is bad.
I need to take my money out.
(23:28):
And you might be right at theprecipice of the market just exploding
because of a tax overhauldeal, right?
And you got to look past yournose, you know, like, you don't bite
off your nose to spite your face.
But that happens a lot oftimes where we're conflating issues
and we're sticking our flag inthe sand saying, I'm going to die
for this issue, which isessentially what you're saying.
You're not thinking that whenyou're saying it, but that's what
(23:50):
you're actually doing.
And then the last one that Ihad is play to win instead of not
to lose.
My dad taught me this when Iwas a kid, and I had some challenges
in my upbringing.
But one of the things that Iremember him saying that I didn't
understand until I got olderbecause I was always afraid to lose.
If you play afraid to lose,you are going to lose often.
(24:14):
So if you have to be convincedthat you.
That you can win before youplay, you know what I mean?
Like.
Like you're.
You're just gonna.
You're gonna lose more thanyou win.
If you just play to win, yougo out there and say, I'm gonna do
the best as I can.
I'm gonna make the bestdecisions that I can, and I'm gonna
let it hang out.
I'm gonna do everything I canto be successful.
(24:34):
And you know what?
Sometimes I'M gonna lose andthat's okay.
You're gonna win a lot.
But the guy who goes out thereand says, if I lose, look at what
people are gonna think about me.
You know, maybe my, my selfworth will be down.
I'll have less money.
Like in investing, I'll haveless money.
If you're playing with thatattitude, you've already lost.
You should not be managingyour money if you're playing with
(24:56):
the.
The idea is I'm afraid to lose money.
If you're afraid to losemoney, do not manage your own investments
and do not have any say in howyour investments other than the investment
thesis that's followed.
But put somebody in charge ofit that's not afraid to lose because
you're gonna have losers.
Right.
Not even when you have a Superbowl winning football team.
Not everybody on that team wasthe greatest player in the world.
(25:18):
Some of the players, some ofthe guys didn't do good.
Right.
They didn't.
The Chiefs, I think the Chiefs.
No, it was a 49ers.
They kicked a player off theirteam who didn't want to play.
Right.
You're going to have pieces ofyour program that just fail and it's
okay, you move on.
That's why you have tounderstand business and business.
(25:39):
My big advice to people, youknow, a third of what you do is not
going to work out.
It's just not going to workfor whatever reason.
Not because it's always a badidea, but because you try, it doesn't
work out.
You didn't have enough information.
People don't care about it.
But you don't stop trying.
You keep going.
Your portfolio is going to bethe same way.
There's going to be parts init that lose and you're going to
(26:01):
be able to stomach it.
Well, and you had talked aboutto the do it yourselfers that have
done a great job and justwalked through that.
But I'm even thinking aboutthe people that have hired a financial
advisor.
Like how are you keeping thepeople that are managing your money
accountable?
So.
So that you are making goodbusiness decisions with your money.
Right.
And just because somebodymakes you feel good.
(26:22):
Yeah.
Doesn't mean that that alsoequals performance.
And here's this why I wouldsay if you're paying somebody a fee,
they're going to want you tofeel good because they don't want
to.
Well.
And they're salespeople.
They're salespeople.
So.
So just because when you comein, the, the cat pageantry of the
industry that gets you coffeeand asks about your family.
(26:42):
And they speak very littleabout your investments.
But you leave away feeling good.
What if you were actuallymissing out on understanding all
the things you've been walkingus through and owning great companies
and really making gooddecisions and opportunity cost.
Don't wait for the world to goto hell in a handbasket and say what?
What have you been doing allthis time?
Hold the people that you'repaying fees to accountable to make
(27:05):
sure that they're reallylooking at this with your best interests.
But that's the Na na na, Idon't want to hear it.
Yeah.
Episode.
Yep.
Because here's the thing.
If you're working withsomebody or you're going to hire
somebody, you need them toexplain their investment thesis to
you.
And if they say we investaccording to modern portfolio theory,
(27:26):
some bullshit that they gotoff the Internet, if they don't sound
like what we're talking about,the fact that you're buying pieces
of something that's real andyou need to get those things for
a good price, and that's what matters.
And we're looking to buildvalue for you over time.
If they're not talking aboutthose things, they're selling you
somebody else's investment strategy.
(27:47):
There should be an investment thesis.
You should be sitting downwith your investment person and explain
to me the investment thesisand how you're going to handle my
investments.
And they should be talkingabout price and value.
They should be talking abouteconomic advantages.
They should be talking aboutwhat we're going to do in the market's
down, when it's up.
They should be talking aboutwhy this stuff that you're reading
on the news, you know, does ordoesn't impact you.
(28:08):
But this should sound a lotlike some of the stuff that we've
talking about.
And I truly believe that.
And I talk to investors allthe time, people who are managing
endowments and things likethat too.
And they come in and they say,we want you to do XYZ for us.
And the first thing I say is,what's your investment thesis?
Well, we don't have one.
I'm like, well, how could wepossibly build you an investment
program for your organizationif you don't have an investment thesis?
(28:29):
Let's help you start.
There's.
Let's start with yourinvestment thesis.
And that's for people who aremanaging other people or giving advice
to other people.
Now, if you are the type ofperson who is saying, well, I'm coming
to you for advice, I'm buyingyour investment thesis, you need
to have those spider like theBS indicator up.
And if you're getting genericstuff when you Google investing and
(28:51):
it's the top line ofWikipedia, or if you talk to three
different investment peopleand you say, what's your investment
thesis?
And they all give you the samespiel that means not a single one
of them actually has a real thesis.
They're just selling you investments.
They're selling you like youtalked about two episodes ago.
I think SMAs or mutual fundsor stuff like that, they're just
putting you in whatever theyput you in because that's how they
(29:13):
get paid.
It needs to be an intellectualconversation, not one that is using
words that you can.
I don't think I've used asingle term here in the last three
episodes that people can'tunderstand or that we didn't explain,
that goes.
When you hear, you go, okay,that makes sense to me, right?
It's down to earth.
Talk to you like a humanbeing, Explain how it is.
Here's the rules of the game.
(29:33):
Here's how we play within the rules.
Not well, you know, if youreally want more return, you could
buy this structure productover there or that product over there
that creates these K1s and allthese other issues.
And you know, but it's greatbecause you get more income and blah,
blah, blah.
It's like, no, what's theactual investment thesis for how
you're going to manage myportfolio for me.
And, and I would go a step further.
Do your financial planningbefore you do your investment management.
(29:54):
The financial plan gives you aguideline for what you need the investment
program to do for you.
If you don't know what youneed out of the investment program
to meet your financial goals,then how do you have a properly developed
financial plan or investment plan?
So you start with thefinancial plan, understand where
you want to go, and then youlook at your resources and say, can
(30:15):
they help me get there?
Or what do I need to do tohelp me get there?
And that will cut out a lot ofthe garbage that gets sold to people.
I've seen people who, youshould have a retirement annuity.
You should have an index new,that type of thing.
Why do I need that?
Well, because you need guarantees.
It's like, no, you have somuch money that even if you made
5% for the rest of your lifeand spent 6% a year, you'd still
(30:36):
have money left over.
Why would you buy a guarantee?
When you buy a guarantee, yougive up your money, you give up your
principal, you buy a contractwith A third party company.
Why would you do that if youdon't need to do that?
You need to understand therules of the game first.
Before you do that and what'sactually happening, you need to understand
your situation.
What's going on with your situation.
(30:56):
When you talk to investmentpeople, I think it should sound like
us.
You know, I think you shouldlook for somebody who's saying, look,
there's value in everyinvestment that you buy.
There's a reason why you needto, you should be buying that investment.
So if you say why do I own this?
We could actually give you anexplanation of why you own that and
how that relates to yourfinancial situation.
Well, and this is one of thosemoments that if you've been presented
(31:17):
with new information you'venever heard of invest investment
thesis.
What, what do you do with that?
As a listener, you go back toyour professional money managers
or whoever it is and say, talkto me about your investment thesis.
And if they stare at you likedeer in a headlights or say we.
Pick money managers for you.
Right.
There's your spider sense,number one.
So when we have people reachout to us for consulting and Travis
(31:40):
poses a question on what'syour investment thesis?
It's never to trap theindividual or to shame them.
It's because we need to have a guideline.
Going to be hired as afiduciary to say what are we being
held accountable to and what'sthe thesis?
So that we know that we'restaying within.
So that's.
If there's one takeaway fromthis episode.
What is the investment thesisthat either you're following on your
own or that somebody thatyou're paying a fee, what are they
(32:02):
following?
So I'm going to let you finishhere on these last parts and just.
Let me make a point on that too.
I don't mean that in any way negative.
I.
To me, it's a wonderful thingto have a conversation with somebody
about what your investment thesis.
And if you don't have one, areyou going to use ours?
Or, or do you need us to helpyou design one that works for you
and your situation?
(32:25):
Because what that does is thatcreates the guidelines for how the
management happens.
Right.
If you don't have it, if youdon't have a thesis, how do you create
the structure and the discipline?
Yep.
Right.
You have to have that guiding principle.
And that's what your thesis is.
It's my guiding principle.
I believe in index investing.
I believe in individual equities.
That's your thesis.
Now how do we create structurearound that.
(32:45):
So that's why that's so important.
Some people might call itinvestment policy statement.
That's more of a rule book.
The thesis is kind of whatthat investment policy statement
is designed to actually drive.
Right?
Here's, here's what I wouldsay, because I think that this has
been a great discussion today.
If you look at every very,very successful investment manager
(33:10):
and hedge fund guy, pickanyone you want.
Ackerman, Buffett, not asingle one of them got rich investing
in the index.
None of them did.
Dalio, he didn't.
He didn't buy the.
That's not how he made his money.
They made money by buyingindividual companies, understanding
the companies and theireconomic advantages and their leadership
teams, and that's how theymade their money.
(33:32):
All the really, really wealthypeople got rich investing.
Jeff Bezos invested in his own company.
Elon Musk invested in his own companies.
Right.
That's how they got rich inindividual companies, not in the
average of how everything does.
And so if you're thinking,well, nobody can do it, but that's
(33:55):
how all the really wealthypeople did it.
And if you say, well, I heardWarren Buffett talking or I heard
Kramer talking or any of theseother, you know, talking heads talk,
and they said that, you know,I should buy the index, the reason
why they're saying that isbecause they don't believe that you
have the structure and thediscipline to do what they do.
And they're a hundred percentright in most cases, because you
(34:18):
not only have to havestructure and discipline, but you
have to understand business.
And if you don't understandbusiness, if you don't have structure
and you don't have discipline,you're not going to be able to do
what they've done.
It'll be a pipe dream.
So you're just not going toget there.
So their answer to you then isbuy the s and P500 so that you don't
have to worry about it.
(34:38):
Because it's dangerous to buythings you don't understand.
It's dangerous not to be disciplined.
It's dangerous not tounderstand the rules of the game.
That's where you can get wiped out.
When somebody says, yeah, Iknow a guy, he went to financial
advisor.
He lost all his money becausehe was investing with somebody who
didn't have a good thesis.
He was investing with somebodythat was taking bad bets.
He didn't understand the rulesof the game.
(34:59):
Right.
He didn't understand how the,the financial.
Not every financial advisor isthe same.
Yep, you can go out and get a broker.
When you get a broker, aregistered representative with a
company, you give thempermission to buy or sell something.
In fact, a lot of investmentadvisor representatives, so called
fiduciaries, if they don'thave discretionary authority, what
happens is they come to youand say, we think we should do this.
(35:20):
They sell you an idea and yousay, go ahead and do it.
They have shifted 100% of theliability to you.
And when it doesn't work outand you lose your money because you
buy a stock or some kind ofinvestment and blows up on you, they
say, but you gave uspermission to buy it.
You're the final decisionmaker, not us.
All we do is present the ideato you and it happens over and over
(35:41):
and over.
And then you hear about, well,you know, so and so was investing
with somebody that lost alltheir money.
You didn't understand what therules were even with the people you
were working with.
So you gotta understand therules of the game.
But just think about that likethat every billionaire you've ever
heard of, not a single onegot, became a billionaire.
LeBron James not a billionairebecause, or Michael Jordan not a
billionaire because of indexfunds or mutual funds in general.
(36:03):
None of them are.
They buy companies, they goout and they get a good price on
things.
They buy it, they make surethey have good leadership in place
and they make a ton of moneyon it.
And they still buy losers,they still fail.
There's still things in theirportfolios that don't work out you
can talk to.
I'm sure that you can look atBuffett's history and you'll find
(36:25):
things that lost money.
Well, and I think that's partof the exciting part is how you've
tried to bring to reality thefact that if you're an investor,
you have an opportunity in afree market to go buy a cut of a
company and own it.
You're, you're not buying thephysical company from Tim Cook, but
(36:48):
you can own a part of Apple.
If you believe in theirmission and what they're doing.
You are buying a part of thephysical company from whoever owns
it.
I mean you like a share of a company.
If there's a million shares ofa company, that means there's a million
equal pieces of the company.
When you buy one, you arebuying an equal piece of the company.
Which means, you know, you,you can't necessarily go and like,
(37:10):
because you own one millionthof the company, like just walk into
its building.
Like you own the place.
You got to own a Lot more.
That's more what I wasalluding to.
But you have an investor havean opportunity to do that, and you
can make money.
You can make money by puttingyour money behind companies that
have strong visions for wherethey're going, and you can reap the
benefits of that.
And so investing.
You can say, the stockmarket's rigged, which is being the
(37:33):
parent on the sideline thatsays, my kid's out of control, you
fix him.
Or you can be the parent whosays, this might be a little rough
for a little bit, but I wantto course correct so that the character's
there.
Yeah.
Because over the long run, Iwant to have the best darn kid I
can.
If you're going to play astrategy game against me.
Yeah, I've done that.
Right.
Do not complain if I beat youbecause I do something that you didn't
(37:53):
know you could do.
Read the instructions.
Right.
Like the market.
The answer to this is themarket's not actually rigged.
The real answer is that youneed to be a student of the game.
That's the only way that thatthat's how you win is you have to
be a dedicated student on the game.
You have to understand all the rules.
(38:14):
You have to have structure,you have to have discipline.
You have to play to win.
You have to understand business.
You have to be a student ofthe actual game you're playing.
You can't.
If you lose the game over andover and over again and you don't
relook at your strategy andyour discipline, that's not a market
problem.
That's a you problem.
(38:34):
I love when I play games withpeople and they every single game
is the same exact strategy.
They do the same thing overand over and over again.
No matter how I beat them,because all I have to do is adjust
and I can beat them.
That's a them problem.
If they want to win, they gotto do something.
They got to take a chance, trysomething, not be afraid to lose.
Oh, if I don't play like this,I can't win.
Well, you can't win like that either.
(38:55):
So either play to win, youknow, or sit there and get upset
when you lose over and over again.
Yeah, well, hey, if this wasyour first interaction because you
looked up, is the stock market rigged?
And you happen to stumble uponditch the suits.
Travis and I always presentseries, usually two or three episodes
around topics.
This was our investmentseries, investing.
(39:15):
So go back, listen to theprevious two episodes.
But as a reminder, you canalso visit our Patreon channel.
Subscribe to Ditch the Suit sothat you can get live inbox updates
about new episodes.
We just appreciate you beingour guest.
And until next time, thanksfor checking out Ditch the Suits.
Thanks for checking out Ditchthe Suits.
Be sure to write a review ordrop a comment about this episode.
And if you want more likethis, head over to Ditch suits dot
(39:37):
com.
You can send us a message andget in touch.
Let us know how we can help,and be sure to share any topics you'd
be interested in having uscover on the show.
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
Thanks for being our guest andchecking out Ditch the Suits.
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