March 24, 2025 • 60 mins
Your body is yours to modify as you please, but who you trust with that modification can mean the difference between life and death. The disturbing case of Dr. Peter Norman reveals the deadliest side of cosmetic surgery when placed in unqualified hands.
Norman, a physician trained in internal medicine with no surgical specialization, opened a cosmetic surgery clinic in Arizona advertising "lunchtime lipo" procedures. What followed was a horrifying sequence of deaths that exposed dangerous gaps in medical regulation and the deliberate exploitation of vulnerable communities.
Through meticulous research, we uncover how Norman's first victim, Ralph Gonzalez, died after improper airway management during what should have been a routine liposuction. When brave paramedic David Duarte reported the incident, the medical board inexplicably failed to revoke Norman's license. Four months later, Alicia Santizo Blanco became his second victim during a Brazilian butt lift, suffering a fatal fat embolism. Even after practice restrictions were imposed, Norman hired an unlicensed doctor to continue performing surgeries, leading to the death of Leslie Ann Ray—after which Norman had the audacity to charge her credit card before fleeing the country.
This episode isn't just about a rogue doctor's crimes—it's a vital warning for anyone considering cosmetic procedures. We provide essential guidance on verifying surgeon credentials through the American Board of Plastic Surgery, the American Board of Medical Specialties, and state medical boards. The difference between a qualified plastic surgeon and someone who took a weekend course could literally be life or death. Before you consider any cosmetic procedure, listen to this cautionary tale and learn how to protect yourself from becoming another statistic.
Resources:
https://aamsn.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Man-Slauter-Charges-and-2nd-degree-murder.pdf
https://www.sanfranciscoplasticsurgeryblog.com/plastic-surgery-warning-signs/
https://www.plasticsurgery.org/
https://www.jjrothmd.com/blog/murder-trial-begins-for-unlicensed-arizona-plastic-surgeon/
plastic surgery member qualifications
Don't miss a (heart) beat! Check out our Instagram @doctoringthetruthpodcast and email us your story ideas at doctoringthetruth@gmail.com. Don't forget to downlo
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Amanda Jenna Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello, hello, hello.
How are you?
You know, I'm doing pretty darnfine.
How are?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
you.
That sounds amazing, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I got a lot of sleep last night, so I'm feeling good.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yay, sleep helps, sleep is the universal happiness
, med um.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm going to conference in nolans she's going
to nola baby next week.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, or she a hot shot.
She's sharing a poster I am.
I got a poster.
I got a voodoo ghost tourbooked I mean it's going to be a
time.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Why aren't you taking me with you?
Oh wait.
I just got back from aconference.
I won't be conference greedy,but I wish I was going.
That sounds amazing.
It's going to be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, show me something, throw me something,
speaking of which you're goingto show me this time, this week,
amanda, it's your turn.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's my turn, baby.
We're going to tap into thatcosmetic plastic surgery world.
We haven't been there yet, no,so you're going to learn a lot
about that.
Today.
I learned a lot researchingthis, so I'm excited to share.
But before we do that, may Ijust applaud us that we have
(01:32):
nothing to correct what.
There's.
No correction section.
No correction section Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Not that I'm aware of , I mean, there's probably some
out there, but thank you forgiving us a week's respite.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, they were like they need a break after that
sports situation.
And then at the end of our lastepisode, I was like, oh my gosh
, we should share our websitestory.
And then we were like this isalready over an hour and we
didn't even have it pulled up,so I'm going to share that
quickly.
To start, it's from a usernamein Mankato, minnesota.
(02:16):
We didn't have permission toshare this person's name, so I'm
just going to read the story.
But this story was sharedbecause of your case.
That you did.
That took place in a nursinghome, so this listener shares.
I worked for a nursing home inphoenix back in 2014.
I loved talking to residents sothat they trusted me.
(02:38):
One lady kept telling me howthe nurse's aid was so mean to
her in stealing her jewelry andmoney.
Well, I went and talked to thehead nurse and she kept telling
me that she was not in her rightmind and didn't know what she
was talking about.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So annoying, that's my saying so annoying.
And then the listener writesshe would not even look into the
situation.
The nurse's aides were so upsetwith me that they called a
meeting and told everyone I wasstealing this woman's clothes.
What?
Those aides became friends withall the rest and they stood
(03:13):
against me.
I left the room and neverreturned to my job.
Oh my gosh, that was only oneincident.
The residents told me it mademe so sick that I could not
protect this lady.
I called the state and put in acomplaint, but nothing was ever
done.
I will never go into a nursinghome.
Oh, I'm so sorry that happenedto you.
I gotta talk about some bulliesin the workplace right.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I got an email from someone to our gmail about this
as well, so I'm going to add.
This person says nursing homestake rehab patients too, as well
as more complex patients.
You can't use restraintswithout a doctor's orders, and
even then they're hard to get.
The statement is true forhealthcare across the board.
(03:58):
We're expected to do more andmore with less.
Also, part of the conversationwhen discussing placement for a
woman is that they can expecttheir husbands to stop visiting
them.
Oh, this person says Iabsolutely adore my residence
and my aides are indispensableto me.
Anonymous.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh, I hate that trend in healthcare of do more with
less.
Yeah, yeah, it's such a badtrend, right.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Thank you for writing in.
Yeah, no, we appreciate thecomments.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
And we're all here to commiserate together.
Absolutely All right, y'all,are you ready to get into this?
I'm ready, she ready for somefootball?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
no, just kidding, we're not going back down the
sports massive correction.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
The next episode will just be correction section yeah
, no, it's, uh, baseball season,baby.
Yeah, I also don't knowanything about baseball, so
anyway, um, here we go.
There are no trigger warningsfor this episode.
Oh, not that I thought.
Anyways, okay, set the mood.
(05:13):
Mood, set, mood set.
Have you ever caught yourselfstaring in the mirror thinking
if only I could change this onething, I'd feel better.
Oh yeah, it's a.
It's a feeling.
Many of us know all too well theurge to reshape ourselves into
something we think we should be,and for some, that feeling
(05:35):
leads to a choice that'sbecoming more and more common
turning to cosmetic or plasticsurgery to fix what feels broken
.
We live in a world where bodyimage is ever shifting and
expectations are unrealisticAmen.
Jean-anne Schwark found herselffighting this internal battle
In the fall of 2006,.
(05:56):
She decided that she was tiredof feeling self-conscious and
she wanted to look a little bitbetter in her bathing suit.
At 45 years old and a mother offive, she made the decision to
have some work done on her upperbody and back of her arms.
She found an ad in a localpaper for minimally invasive
lunchtime lipo where you couldgo back to work the next day.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Lunch.
I'm sorry, lunchtime lipo, it'sso catchy.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Oh my gosh, so catchy .
No anesthesia other than local,the ad highlighted.
With a background in healthcare, herself working as a nurse
practitioner, she wasn't worriedin the slightest.
She researched the clinic atAnthem Medical Plaza, as well as
the provider, and everythingchecked out, so she scheduled
(06:45):
her appointment.
September 14, 2006 wasprocedure day.
Jean Ann arrived and wasassured by a Dr Peter Norman
that if anything happened to hershe'd be in good hands.
Dr Norman began handing herseveral pills and, as a nurse
practitioner, she tried her bestto keep track of what she was
(07:06):
putting in her mouth.
Jean ann was someone that nevertook any pills, so she knew
that anything she took would hither hard, and I resonate with
that because I also never takepills.
So, like the couple times I'vehad surgery, I'm like it's not
gonna take very much.
Just, I'm a lightweight, right,it'll be fine, yeah so yeah,
(07:28):
don't overdo it, folks, yeah.
I'm not gonna need a lot of guys, yeah, um.
So she knew pills would hit herhard.
This brings us to 10 pm, whereJeananne woke up freezing in the
dark on a cold table covered inblood.
What she felt?
(07:51):
As though she had been beatenup.
She mustered the strength topull herself off the table and
leave the clinic as quickly asshe could.
When she woke the next day, herbed looked like a crime scene
covered in blood.
She then examined herself andfound six to eight holes in her
body that already lookedinfected.
She treated herself with woundirrigations and decided she
(08:14):
would let them heal on her ontheir own.
She knew that this was beyondnegligence, but she opted not to
complain to the Arizona MedicalBoard due to professional
embarrassment and the fact thatshe blamed herself.
While Jean Ann would be luckyenough to survive her wounds,
others would not be as fortunate, with headlines reading Plastic
Surgeon Convicted of MultipleMurders.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Oh my god.
So they left her there on thetable for her to just-.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I know I really don't understand that.
What To just?
It happens again, just liketake herself out of there.
Oh my, they're just like how wegive up.
Bye, we're going home fordinner.
Like what the hell's happeninghere?
Oh my gosh.
So a mr peter norman was bornon April 16th 1961.
(09:03):
And there is limited backgroundinformation on him online,
which is okay, because I'drather focus on his victims and
his crimes today rather thandissect whether or not he had a
happy childhood, which is notvery nice to me, I swear I'm a
nice lady.
Anyway, he earned his medicaldegree in June of 1994 from St
(09:26):
George's University School ofMedicine in Granada, which is in
the West Indies.
He completed a three-yearresidency in internal medicine
at Roger Williams Medical Centerin Providence, rhode Island,
and went on to practiceemergency medicine in New York
State for 16 years beforedeciding to move to Arizona and
(09:46):
establish his own medicalpractice where he would provide
cosmetic procedures.
The issue with this was that,while Peter Norman was a doctor,
he did not have the necessaryqualifications for practice of
this kind.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Oh dear.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Little spoiler alert here.
He was convicted for the deathsof three patients at his clinic
in Anthem, Arizona between 2006and 2007.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
His lack of training in plastic surgery and
negligence in performing complexprocedures led to the tragic
deaths of Ralph Gonzalez, aliciaSantizo Blanco and Leslie Ann
Ray.
Not only is this a tragic case,it also exposed disturbing
practices, including theexploitation of vulnerable
communities, which we'll getinto and you're going to be
(10:36):
pissed, and the broader issue ofunqualified practitioners in
the field of cosmetic surgery.
This case begs the question ofwhen does a medical mistake turn
to murder?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Ralph Gonzalez was born November 30th 1973.
He was noted to be a quietchild, more of an observer, and
very easygoing.
His mother said in an interviewthat he was quote a great son.
You could trust him.
Ralph was born and raised inMiddletown, new York, and moved
to Arizona when he was 19 yearsold.
(11:12):
One day he called his motherand told her that he wanted to
have his stomach flattened.
He had been running about fivemiles a day and couldn't get rid
of his stomach.
In his eyes.
He assured his mom that theprocedure would be quick and
easy and he'd be right back towork.
His mom told him that shedidn't think it was necessary,
but he was an adult and sherespected his decision to move
(11:35):
forward with the procedure.
In that same interview she wasquoted to say she was trusting
that his doctor is an honestperson and usually doctors are
you're gonna tell me it wasn't Idon't think so.
David duarte was a firstresponder on duty when they
(11:56):
received a 911 call to acosmetic surgery clinic for a
patient who had stoppedbreathing while undergoing a
liposuction procedure.
They arrived at Dr Norman'sclinic and he recounted.
The first thing that he noticedupon arrival was the patient's
stomach.
He said it looked like he wasnine months pregnant.
Oh no, he presumed that it wasdistended, which is a good
(12:21):
indication that the airway tubethat was inserted was not in the
trachea, rather the esophaguswhich goes directly into the
stomach.
Oh, rather, the esophagus whichgoes directly into the stomach.
When first responders arrived,staff were performing CPR, but
David noted that they didn'tseem as though they had any
medical training at all.
They were very panicky, withlooks of terror in their eyes.
(12:42):
David asked not good at all.
David asked Dr Norman who hadintubated the tube, and he said
he did.
That is where the confrontationbegan.
David was very confident thatthe tube was in the wrong place
because he couldn't hear anylung sounds.
Dr Norman barked at him thathe's been an ER doctor for 16
(13:05):
years and it's in the rightplace.
And that's when David snarkedback and said, quote well, I've
been a paramedic for 14 years,and if you'd done your fucking
job, I wouldn't be here.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Oh, can I just say good for him.
Oh, my God, I know.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I know David is a true hero in this story.
Emotions were high and it wastime to transport Ralph to the
hospital.
Dr Norman requested to ridealong in the ambulance to the
hospital, which is an extremelyunusual request.
While in the ambulance, davidbegan to remove the endotracheal
tube and Dr Norman keptstopping him.
(13:44):
They fought back and forthabout whether or not it was in
the right place.
David then became physical,grabbing him by the throat and
slamming him against theambulance wall.
He told him quote if you evertouch me again, I will break
your fucking arm off and beatyou to death with it oh wow, I
know like, but also he wants tosave that patient david's just
(14:07):
trying to do his job and savethis patient's life in this
asshat norman who just is like Iwant to ride an ambulance, it's
like no shithead, you've doneenough, please stay behind.
so david then successfullyremoved the tube out of the
stomach and grabbed a new tubeto place.
Dr Norman grabbed it out of hishands and inserted it blindly.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Oh no, oh no, that's not good, that's not good.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Ralph immediately began pulling blood from his
mouth.
They arrived at the hospitaland he was placed in the care of
the ER team and one hour laterOne hour later he was pronounced
dead at the age of 33 fromliposuction?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Oh no, All because he didn't know how to intubate.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
You're catching on here.
Yes, so the day of theprocedure, ralph's mom was
waiting for his call.
You know mama button, she'sworried, oh gosh.
So her phone rang and sheanswered.
It was Ralph calling.
But it wasn't Ralph.
It was Dr Norman on the otherend of the line.
(15:23):
He informed her that Ralph haddied.
She couldn't believe it.
It was supposed to be a routineprocedure.
How could this happen?
She said about that moment,quote your heart goes down to
the floor.
This is someone that you loveso much and is never going to be
around again.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I can't.
Imagine.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
David called the Arizona Medical Board and filed
an official complaint.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, I mean, David did everything he could, but my
goodness.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I know and he had said that's why he felt inclined
to file this official complaintbecause he felt like it was the
last thing he could try and dofor Ralph.
So in January of 2007, theArizona Medical Board opened an
investigation.
There was little information onDr Norman because he was new to
(16:13):
the area of practice.
Dr Edward Eads, who is anArizona Medical Board consultant
, was asked to look into him.
He found what we know to betrue, that he completed
undergrad in the States and wentto medical school in the
Caribbean.
After med school he became anER doc in New York and around
2004 or 2005, he moved toArizona and apparently decided
(16:37):
he wanted to become a cosmeticsurgeon, opening his own
practice.
An investigation firstdetermines if the doctor is in
serious violation of one of 32statutes, with the most
important of these being isthere a danger to the public?
The medical board couldn't finda serious violation of the 32
statutes and he wasn't inapparent danger to the community
(17:00):
, so the case was dismissed.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Okay, I have a question Like so in order for
someone to become an allergistor an otolaryngologist, they
have to do a fellowship.
Do I have to do a fellowship inplastic surgery, or is that not
a thing?
Yeah, we're going to get intothat?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, that's a great question.
Yes, okay, okay.
So that brings us to AliciaCentizo Blanco, who was born on
December 15th 1965, andunfortunately passed away on
April 25th 2007, at the hands ofDr Norman.
Oh gosh, again littleinformation that I could find on
(17:42):
Alicia.
But we do know that she hadbeen receiving cosmetic surgery
procedures that her family wasunaware of.
Yeah, she had had.
Yeah, I mean, that's somethingpeople don't talk about, right?
They're embarrassed, right?
Let's see, she had had multipleprocedures completed by Dr
Norman, such as breast implants,liposuction and fat injections.
(18:04):
She was going back to have somelipo redone as well as perform
a fat grafting procedure, whichis known as the Brazilian butt
lift.
Jeff Heinrichs was a paramedicon duty the day of her procedure
.
His crew was dispatched to DrNorman's office for a
41-year-old female who codedduring liposuction.
Paramedics were met by DrNorman at the door and he said
(18:28):
he wasn't sure why the patienthad coded.
Jeff listened for placement ofthe tube and he told dr norman
that he didn't think the tubewas in the right place.
They argued back and forthabout this until jeff made the
decision to pull the tube out tobe replaced before transport.
Dr norman again insisted thathe ride to the hospital.
(18:48):
Freaking weirdo when.
When they arrived, it's like isthat how you want to still have
control over the situation,Right, because you know you
fucked up?
Yeah, when they arrived at thehospital, she had a pulse and
was transferred to the care ofthe ER team.
She passed away three hourslater.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
While at the hospital , jeff ran into David who had
brought in a different patient.
He told him that his cosmeticsurgeon guy struck again and
that they just brought in apatient of his.
David was beyond furious andcouldn't believe that this had
happened for a second time.
He called the medical boardagain and left a detailed
message of the second occurrence.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Good for him.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yes.
So David was worried that thefirst case against him had been
dismissed because he haddisclosed that they had been
fighting.
So they took it, as I know theydidn't just take it as a
personal thing because he wasn'tin violation of one of the 32
statutes and he wasn't inapparent danger to the public.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
But david personally felt like yeah, if I wouldn't
have fought with him maybesomething different.
Yeah, yeah so when thishappened again, he was like I
have to say something again whatare the odds that he was around
to know this so they couldreport him again?
Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Alicia's son, frey, received a call from the
hospital that his mother wasthere and that she wasn't going
to make it through the night.
He was in disbelief.
He had just spoken to her theday before and she was just fine
.
And now he was getting a phonecall that he needed to head to
the hospital to his goodbyes.
By the time he arrived, she hadsadly passed away.
(20:34):
The hospital informed him ofmore specifics, like where she
had had the procedure done andwho the doctor was.
Fray drove to the clinic andburst through the door demanding
to talk to dr norman.
When he stood in front of him,all he could manage to say was
what were you thinking?
What were you doing?
Frey recounted that all DrNorman said was I'm sorry and
(20:56):
walked away.
Alicia's death was only fourmonths after the death of Ralph.
While the initial investigationwas dismissed, it was a red
flag that there was a seconddeath in his clinic in only four
months.
The medical board wasn't sureif he was able to safely
practice medicine at this point,so they drafted an interim
(21:19):
practice restriction so thatthey could ensure he wouldn't
have any other patients in hiscare until the board had an
opportunity to complete athorough investigation.
Oh, that's good.
Yes, the Go Arizona Medical.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Board.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, no, I think they did their due diligence.
They did good.
Dr Eads was again asked to be aconsultant for the
investigation.
He now had the opportunity todo a review of records, where he
noted several deviations fromthe standard of care as it
pertains to Ralph.
These were his findings Beforethe actual liposuction began.
(21:54):
Ralph's oxygen levels droppedquickly and his heart stopped
what.
Ralph had 10 times the lethaldose of lidocaine in his system,
which is why his heart stoppedwhat.
His death was noted to be theresult of an adverse reaction to
medications administered forcosmetic liposuction.
(22:15):
Another thing the investigationshowed was that his abdomen was
severely distended due toincorrect endotracheal tube
placement.
In regard to Alicia a, Dr Eadsfound that during surgery she
suffered cardiac arrest oh mygosh he explained that a risk of
fat grafting is a fat embolism.
(22:38):
Fat can mistakenly be injectedinto a vein during the procedure
, which can then transfer allthe way to the heart and enter
the lungs, which causes theheart to stop.
This was the cause of her death.
Dr Dorman failed to inform EMSpersonnel or the staff in the ER
that fat embolism was even apossibility, and had he, they
(22:59):
might have had the opportunityto save her life.
But he's a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
In addition to these grave medical errors uncovered,
he also discovered that many ofthe patients that had come to
the clinic had found ads thatwere placed in Spanish-language
newspapers that are circulatedin Mexican-American communities.
These are hard-working folkswho were said to often have cold
hard cash to spend.
He advertised in Spanish, butwhen patients would come to sign
(23:32):
legal documents, the documentswere all in english.
Oh funny that, yeah.
Lead attorney for the case,dean brecchi, noted that many of
the spanish-speaking people inthis particular community are
undocumented, so they arenaturally afraid to come forward
with any complaints because,while, yes, they were harmed,
they didn't want anydocumentation that they were
(23:53):
here.
How freaking sad is that, oh god, it's tragic he believed that
norman wanted to get money frompeople who weren't going to
complain.
Of course he did, and when youthink it couldn't get any worse,
they also found that he hadmedical equipment that wasn't
registered, medications thatweren't stored properly or
securely, and his staff membersdid not have any surgical
(24:15):
training.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I mean his staff members seemed like they didn't
even have basic life supporttraining because they were
freaking out about trying to doCPR.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
And like, if it's your first time doing CPR, okay,
fine, but for the whole room tosee panicky, it's like someone
has to take control in there.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean that's disgusting.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
In May of 2007, Dr Norman was under investigation
for the death of two patients injust under four months.
With an interim practicerestriction in place,
investigators were shocked tofind out that there had been
another death at his clinic.
What?
But before we get into that,it's a chart note.
Welcome to the chart notesegment, where we learn about
(25:03):
what's happening in medicine andhealthcare.
Why does chart note make usfeel like we should sing?
I love it, but I don't when Ihear it back.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
No, I'm always like eee lie, Sorry, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Sorry everybody, although I did have someone tell
me that.
I've actually had a couplepeople tell me your voice was
made for podcasting.
But someone particularly toldme that my voice scratched an
itch in their brain.
So shout out to Morgan, thatwas so nice Scratched an itch.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Oh, that was a positive Good.
Good, good, good, good for you.
Oh, is that not that your voicescratched and itched in her
brain?
I suppose?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
yeah, like you know, like when you're like scratch a
dog and they get like the earlykids.
I don't know, I took it as agood type of thing.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
That's a good thing, then, because you, you, you, you
scratch your itch.
If it was just itching, thenthat would not be good, right?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
oh my gosh yeah, I see where you're going with that
, but but I'm telling you, yeah.
It was a compliment.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I believe it because I know it to be true.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I listened to your voice and I'm just like oh boy,
lord, have mercy, I'll beblushing over here, okay, anyway
, chart note, y'all Chart note.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Chart note.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Okay.
So I looked up the trainingrequirements because I had the
same question.
You did um for plastic andcosmetic surgeons and I was
curious how one can be confidentthat they're going to go in for
a procedure and that the personperforming the procedure is
qualified to be doing saidprocedure.
Good, good question, very greatquestion.
(26:51):
So I found an excellent blogtitled San Francisco Plastic
Surgery Blog by Dr Joseph AMealy, who is a board certified
plastic surgeon in San Francisco.
He wrote about plastic surgerywarning signs and I'd like to
share some of his tips andtricks with you, as well as
share what I learned about thepathway to becoming a plastic or
(27:14):
cosmetic surgeon.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Here we go oh, an MD or DO medical degree that has
completed education, including abachelor's degree, which is
four years, a medical degree,another four years, and a
plastic surgery residencytraining lasting a minimum of
(27:39):
six years.
They may either choose to go toan integrated residency
training that combines threeyears of general surgery and
three years of plastic surgery,or an independent five-year
residency program in generalsurgery, followed by a
three-year plastic surgeryresidency oh so eight years,
holy cow, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So it's like medical school plus six to eight years.
I mean this is a couple moremedical schools, right?
Mean, this is what blows mymind.
It's not like you can justbecome a doctor and then decide
you're going to be a plasticsurgeon.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
This is a huge commitment yeah, yeah, it sure
is, and a huge commitment thatone a dr norman didn't take,
okay, um what the hell was hedoing?
I mean who gave him a loan toopen that clinic.
Okay, right, okay, carry on.
(28:41):
A person may then choose toattend a fellowship program in
one of the many subspecialtiesof plastic surgery.
Fellowships are one year orlonger.
The surgeon will then becomeboard certified by either the
American Board of PlasticSurgery or the American
Osteopathic Board of Surgery.
For DO Physicians, a boardcertified plastic surgeon can
(29:04):
work within six categories Handsurgery disorders.
Plastic surgeon can work withinsix categories Hand surgery
disorders, reconstructivesurgery, trauma surgery,
congenital defect repair andcosmetic surgery.
Now, that is for a plasticsurgeon, but we also have
cosmetic surgeons From theAmerican Board of Cosmetic
Surgery.
Cosmetic surgery and plasticsurgery both encompass improving
(29:26):
a patient's body.
The overarching philosophiesthat guide the training,
research and goals for patientoutcomes are different.
Cosmetic surgery focuses onenhancing appearance or
aesthetic appeal.
It treats areas that functionproperly and are elective
procedures.
Cosmetic elective procedurescan be performed by the doctors
(29:47):
from a variety of medicalprofessionals.
There are currently noresidency programs in the United
States devoted exclusively tocosmetic surgery.
Because of this, cosmeticsurgeons primarily obtain
training and experience aftercompleting their residency
training by completing apost-residency fellowship
training program in cosmeticsurgery.
(30:09):
There is board certification tobe obtained in cosmetic surgery
and the training experienceknowledge required to become
board certified reflectssubspecialization, above and
beyond what it takes to becomecertified in a related
discipline such as plasticsurgery.
That is so much, so many words,but it seems like it's.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
It's not actually, uh , as rigorous as becoming a
plastic surgeon.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
So if you're, if you're because it's just one of
those six.
Yeah, yeah, but as we'll learnin a minute here, yeah, okay, so
that's kind of what I wasthinking and then I learned um.
During this fellowship, thesurgeons receive a thorough
training in all cosmetic surgeryprocedures of the face, breast
(31:05):
and body, plus non-surgicalcosmetic treatments, performing
a minimum of 300 individualcosmetic surgery procedures.
The fellowship training is inaddition to completing a three
to five-year residency program.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Okay.
So if you're a surgeon andyou're advertising cosmetic
surgery, do you have to havethis legally, Do you?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Like I can't believe that you had a three to five
year residency in thisparticular.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
The answer is no, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
If you are going to look for a procedure for
yourself.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
I would beg you to look for these things.
But I also learned that peoplecan take classes, like online
classes, to become cosmeticallytrained, so that's what our boy
did but our boy didn't takebasic, like how to intubate a
patient, like I mean oh, but,but he apparently was an er
(32:02):
physician in new york.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Explain that yeah, and you can't maintain an airway
.
Come on, dude, you were puttingthe LMAs in the stomach.
Come on, that's, that's okay,anyway.
Okay, back to the chart.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Um, okay.
So yes, that was a lot, um.
But lastly, I did want to tiein the information um that Dr
Mealy had stated in his blogthat there are three places
every patient should checkbefore having plastic surgery.
So one American Board ofPlastic Surgery, two American
Board of Medical Specialties,abms, and number three, your
(32:40):
state's medical board.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
What are they checking, though?
They're checking that yoursurgeon is tested.
Tell you, okay, sorry so no,that's okay.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
So in the blog, dr mealy used these tools to search
dr norman and these were thefindings okay so a quick check
on the american board of plasticsurgery website reveals no
records found for dr norman.
This means he is not boardcertified plastic surgeon.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Suspicious.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Suspicious.
Okay, number two the ABMSwebsite is the best way for you
to determine what board hascertified your doctor.
A check of this website wouldreveal no certification by any
board.
For Dr Norman, yeah, a previouscheck of the healthgradescom
(33:31):
website would show that he wasboard certified in internal
medicine at some point in time,but cannot be corroborated by
the ABMS website.
The reasons for this, accordingto Dr Mealy, could be one he
was never board certified ininternal medicine.
Sketch, according to Dr Mealy,could be one he was never board
certified in internal medicine.
(33:52):
Sketch Two he was boardcertified in internal medicine
but he did not passrecertification.
Or three his board certificationwas removed after his Arizona
medical license was revoked.
The best case scenario here isthat Dr Norman was certified by
the American Board of InternalMedicine, but this is not a
surgical board.
So since this article hadposted, dr Norman has been
(34:16):
removed completely from thehealth grades website.
They were like fuck that guyGet him out of here.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Not a good sign Loser .
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And lastly, checking your state's medical board.
A check of the Arizona MedicalBoard previously revealed one
listing for him under thespecialty of emergency medicine.
The listing detailed that hedid graduate from medical school
in June of 1994 from StGeorge's blah blah blah.
It also showed that hecompleted a three-year residency
in Rhode Island.
The link to this has since beenremoved because no one wants
(34:49):
anything to do with Peter Dorman.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Okay, yeah, do your research.
I love that you gave us sometips and tools for Because you
know, no shade.
I mean, if a girl wants to getsome plastic surgery, go for it.
But my goodness, how would youeven know?
(35:13):
Because you know, obviouslytheir websites are going to be
all bright and shiny about allthe wonderful things that they
do.
So how do you know that who'sbehind this actually knows what
they're doing?
Who knew you could die from?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
what they're doing.
Who knew you could die from?
Well, you know, actually, andnot to like, scare anyone off
from getting plastic surgery orcosmetic procedures done because
there's nothing wrong with that, right?
But they I have read in so manyplaces while doing research on
this it is extremely rare to dieduring these.
This guy is just a fuckingidiot, of course.
But like, but, it's like youdon't go into going to get some
lipo?
Yeah, you're like sweet, I'mgonna look awesome in the
(35:54):
caimans.
This year I got a little lipo.
Oh wait, no, I'm not leavingwhat?
oh wait, I'm in heaven, so itdoesn't oh wait, I'm just
looking down on the caimansevery day now no, do you think
kevin is like the caimans?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I hope so and you don't need plastic surgery
because you have the perfectbody or sunscreen because you
don't sunburn, right?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
uh, you could just hang out in the sunshine all day
, not worry about sunburn.
Can you guys tell we arecraving some vitamin d?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
up in minnesota.
Wow, we need some spring, weneed bring it.
Yeah, yes, okay, okay.
Back to the case, back to thiscase.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Oh baby, oh no okay, all right, it's gonna get dark
for shoot Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
That's what we're all about.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Sorry to burst your bubble.
I don't know why I'm surprised.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
This is our podcast people yeah, okay.
Yep, okay, bring it down.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Okay, leslie Ann Ray, born July 9th 1953, would be
the third and final victim of DrNorman.
Limited information on Leslie'sbackground was available online
.
She arrived for her liposuctionon July 5th.
Surgery was not performed by DrNorman because you know he has
(37:18):
those darn restrictions in place, but he circumvented these
restrictions by hiring a Dr,gary Page, who was a homeopathic
physician, to do the surgeries.
Oh, dr page was not licensed inarizona to perform procedures
of any kind, but here he was,under the direction of dr norman
(37:39):
, performing cosmetic surgery.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
The ass leading, the ass hat okay wonderful tell me
this had no monetary um drivenyeah okay, dr page was noted to
leave the clinic around 7 pm.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Sometime in the night dr norman charted that leslie
had stopped breathing and beganto perform cpr and instructed
someone to call 9-1-1.
I'm just, I can't stop thinkingabout like these are routine
procedures.
You go back to work the nextday like why the hell are people
spending the night?
Speaker 1 (38:13):
it's an out.
Yeah, what do you mean?
Spending the night?
It's an outpatient procedure,was she's just still on the
table?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
she was still right did you just learn from gene ann
?
You didn't want to leave her inthe cold dark anymore.
You staying with, staying withhim now, like what the hell,
buddy?
I?
Speaker 1 (38:28):
mean yeah, there's so many things wrong with this.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah.
So Mike Parks was the EMT onduty.
Arriving at the clinic, he toonoticed that Leslie's stomach
was distended.
It appeared that she had notbeen breathing for quite a while
.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Yeah, her airway was not secure people.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I'm sorry Her stomach was inflated, not her okay, not
her lungs yeah, I'm choking uphere, okay she was transported
to the hospital where she passedaway shortly after.
At this point, the clinic wasclosed and treated as a crime
scene.
Yeah, when searching the clinic, they found a bloody
endotracheal tube in the trashcan and believed that he
(39:09):
attempted to intubate Leslie,even though his note didn't
indicate that he did.
Yeah, because he doesn't knowwhat he's doing he's an idiot.
They later confirmed during I'msorry.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Why doesn't he have an anesthesia tech?
I mean, this is their job.
They're so good at the securingairway they are excellent,
cheap to have to have any staffprobably okay, anyway.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Um, I hope I put something about this in there
later, but if not, I'll mentionit anyway.
You gotta go back.
Just kidding, hey, um, whereare we?
Oh?
Speaker 1 (39:46):
sorry um.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
He attempted to intimidate her, but his no, yes,
and and his note said he didn't, because he's a big fat liar,
okay.
They later confirmed during anautopsy that he did in fact
attempt to intubate her, causinga tear which, sadly, sealed her
fate.
His license to practice inarizona was revoked.
Medical investigators knew thatthey needed to stop him
(40:09):
permanently because while he wasnow unable to practice in
arizona, that wouldn't stop himfrom practicing in another state
.
Patients were not just dying,they were being killed.
This is not just negligence.
At this point, everyone wasunsure if he could even save a
patient's life.
With three deaths in sevenmonths.
This wasn't bad luck, people.
This was a bad doctor.
(40:31):
Yeah, he was indicted on twocharges of murder in the second
degree for the deaths of ralphgonzalez and leslie ray, and one
charge of manslaughter for thedeath of alicia santizo.
He was arrested and given theopportunity of bail, which she
posted, of course.
He then disappeared.
(40:52):
He fled the country to avoidprosecution.
Prosecutors believe that he hadfled to Germany because his
wife was from there.
A fugitive team was looking forhim and a warrant was issued
for him.
Should he ever resurface in theUnited States?
He had been gone for a yearwhen, in October of 2000, I
(41:13):
deleted my note.
It says 200.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
It's October of 200, but I'm thinking, I'm thinking.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
That ain't right 2000 something, something.
Yeah, well, it was a.
I think it's 2008.
We're going to go 2008.
Okay, he was arrested at theairport in Kentucky.
Since he had well proven thathe was a flight risk, he was
held in jail without theopportunity of bail until he was
able to be prosecuted Shame,which brings us to summer of
(41:41):
2011.
The case was tried in court.
Prosecutors noted that it wouldbe a tough case to beat because
they had to prove that he wasbeing reckless.
All three cases were triedtogether in one trial.
The prosecution had stated tothe courtroom quote he didn't
kill them with a gun.
He killed them with arroganceand in this case, the motivation
was greed.
End quote.
(42:03):
The defense's stance was thatthe issue was whether or not
these were homicides.
They argued that these weremedical accidents and inherent
risk of the procedures.
Oh, come on, gag me.
Oh, it came out during thetrial that after Leslie's death,
peter Norman still had themotherfucking audacity to charge
(42:25):
her credit card for the fullamount of the procedure.
The prosecution stated she paidfor her own death.
That tells you what kind ofperson he is.
It's disgusting.
It was also revealed that hehad only seven sessions of
training in liposuction, sothose like weekend online
(42:46):
whatever he had never done, aresidency in plastic surgery or
anesthesiology.
Other disturbing, otherdisturbing details brought to
light were that he had beenrelying on a massage therapist
and a former restaurant workerwith little to no training as
medical assistants.
They were the ones working inthe operating room.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Oh, how unfair was it to them as well, I mean yeah,
the massage therapist also wascharged.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
They pleaded guilty and they were charged to five
years.
What which I obviously didn'tgo into, but fun fact, which I
obviously didn't go into, butfun fact um, the operating room
lacked proper oxygen andmonitoring equipment.
Norman said in the courtroom no, he sat in the courtroom
listening to families sharetheir stories of how these
(43:40):
deaths tore their worlds apart,but he chose not to testify
coward on september 20th 2011.
Did you say turd I?
Speaker 1 (43:53):
said coward, but he's a turd as well.
I'll use a turd bucket for sure, but I mean yeah okay.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
so 67 days later, on the day of sentencing, peter
norman spoke to the judge andsaid quote, I express my deepest
sorrows.
To the day of sentencing, peterNorman spoke to the judge and
said quote, I express my deepestsorrows to the families of
Ralph Gonzalez, alicia Santizoand Leslie Ray.
He then went on to say, quoteI'm particularly angry at David
Duarte for lying on the stand.
(44:23):
I think that is just outrageousthat he came forward to your
court and said what he said.
It's just simply not true.
End quote Wah, wah, wah, huh.
The judge replied with In oursociety, I think we all look up
to doctors, and when doctorstake an oath of do no harm,
(44:44):
there is a reason.
We look up to them, we trustthem.
Sir, I do find that you didharm and you violated your oath,
and for that you deserve a verystiff punishment heck yeah, oh
yeah, that sounds great, rightlike, yeah, let's get him.
Well, hold your stomachs,because they're about to drop,
because this motherfucker wasonly sentenced to 25 years in
(45:05):
prison.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
What he killed three people.
At least that way, no Uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Yeah, that came.
Yeah, yeah, Okay.
So Norman later appealed hisconviction because the judge
ruled that all three of thecases could be tried in the same
trial to the same jury and thatthat was prejudicial.
His conviction was thenoverturned by the Arizona Court
of Appeals, which meant that thecounty attorney had to start
(45:34):
all over.
On October 3rd 2016, the trialfor the murder of Leslie Ann Ray
began.
The jury came back in shortorder with a guilty verdict for
second-degree murder.
The following May, he settledon the other two cases with the
same results as the first Oneguilty verdict for second degree
murder and one for manslaughter.
(45:54):
So he was sentenced for 10years for each count of murder
and five years for the count ofmanslaughter, for that same
total of 25 years.
I just, I don't understand thelack of punishment.
No, um, ralph's mom actually.
So then, like, families get togive their statements, and
(46:17):
ralph's mom had said to thejudge or to the courtroom or
whatever, to everyone presentthrough a microphone, um, that
people get more time for hurtinganimals, exactly, and he took
her son away and other people,yes, and, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
And he willfully exercised his negligence, which
led to deaths, I mean.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Driven by greed?
Yeah, as evidenced by himcharging her credit card after
she already died.
What a psycho.
Oh my God, I don't get it.
So um, this, this gem, isactually eligible for release
this year.
Oh wonderful yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Well, please tell me he will no longer have a license
to practice anywhere in theUnited States.
Is that something?
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah, so he.
He cannot practice in theunited states anymore, but what
will stop him from doing thisagain overseas?
I mean, he already went togermany once.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Oh gosh, that's right , yeah it's not like we can stop
him from going to africa orsomewhere they already suffered
swango.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
They don't need him like your swango.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
They don't need him.
I know like your swango dude.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Oh my gosh.
The case of Dr Peter Norman isa cautionary tale that
highlights the dangers ofunqualified practitioners in the
field of cosmetic surgery.
His reckless practices led tothe loss of three innocent lives
and caused irreversible painfor their families.
Absolutely, the broaderimplications of the case point
to systemic issues withinmedical regulation, exploitation
(47:52):
of vulnerable populations andthe need for greater patient
awareness.
The deaths of Ralph Gonzalez,alicia Santizo and Leslie Ray
were entirely preventable andthe case serves as a stark
reminder of the importance ofproper qualifications,
regulation and vigilance in themedical field.
And lastly, as shared in DrMealy's blog, your federal and
(48:17):
state governments cannot protectyou.
Every state maintains a medicalboard.
Their job is to check thetraining of all physicians and
surgeons practicing in the stateand, if qualified, the board
allows the qualified doctors topurchase a license to practice
medicine.
Each state has its own board,but the requirements are not
widely varied.
The federal governmentregulates prescription drug use
(48:40):
and licensed physicians canpurchase a DEA certificate which
allows them to prescribe drugs.
Neither the state nor thefederal government restrict the
practice of medicine based onthe type of training the doctor
has completed.
The MD degree is granted aftercompleting medical school and a
state license is granted inCalifornia after completing one
year of internship and passingrequired exams.
(49:01):
With a state license, a DEAcertificate can be obtained
before any specialized trainingis started.
Since a license is grantedbefore specialized training is
started, there are norestrictions on the type of
medicine a license holder canperform.
A doctor trained in internalmedicine, which should focus on
diabetes, high blood pressure,lung disease, can perform brain
(49:24):
surgery, as long as they conformto the standard of care.
This pushes the responsibilityonto hospitals.
Hospital medical staff reviewqualifications within each
specialty and grant privilegesfor specific procedures after a
period of supervised proctoring.
This peer review can help forhospital-based disciplines like
(49:45):
brain surgery.
But most cosmetic surgery isoutpatient surgery and not
performed in a hospital.
The American Society of PlasticSurgery and the American
Society for Aesthetic PlasticSurgery both require that all
members have hospital privilegesfor all procedures they perform
, even if they are normallyperformed outside of the
hospital.
(50:06):
So this has been a big debatethroughout the years for the
states to do more to protectcitizens from unqualified
doctors practicing outside oftheir scope of training.
Special interest money has madethis almost impossible and
there is little interest indrafting difficult legislation.
And just he noted thisobviously does nothing to do
(50:27):
with breast implants, but whilereviewing silicone breast
implant leakage rates, the FDAnoted that leaks occurred most
often at the hands ofnon-certified, non-board
certified plastic surgeons,often in the operating room.
It's just a buyer bewaresituation for bargain basement
plastic surgery.
It's up to you to find the bestdoctor.
(50:49):
It's your body, your health andyour life.
Plastic surgery is elective andyou have time to decide how you
want to proceed and who youwant to trust.
Resources are available onlineto help you make the best
decision possible, and while therecommendations above cannot
guarantee perfect results, theycan certainly improve your odds
(51:14):
wow, I mean done, done.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
That was eye-opening.
I mean, I did not know a lot ofthis, so thank you for bringing
that to our attention.
Great research, great story.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Thank you, thank you thank you, thank, thank you,
thank you.
Um, all of the resources that Iused, um will be in the
footnotes, um, so, uh, do youhave a little medical mishap for
us?
Speaker 1 (51:43):
I do.
Um, this week we have an emailfrom anonymous and, by the way,
if you want us, if we're able toshout out your name, let us
know you can use my name.
If you don't say specificallythat we can use your name,
you're going to be nameless.
No, you're going to beanonymous, yeah, so okay.
(52:07):
So this email says hey guyslove the podcast.
I have a medical mishap thatstill gets me roasted at family
gatherings.
So a few years ago I wasslicing an avocado oh gosh, uh,
those slippery little suckers.
Parentheses yes, I know, rookiemistake and parentheses and I
(52:29):
somehow managed to stab myselfin the hand so badly that it
definitely needed stitches.
Oh no, but instead of going tothe er like a normal person, I
thought, hey, I've seen youtubevideos, I can totally do this
myself.
so oh my gosh, I grabbed aneedle and thread from my sewing
(52:53):
kit because obviously a kitmeant for buttons is definitely
surgical grade.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Oh yeah, and the long straight needle, that'll work
really well for stitches andstarted stitching myself up.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
About three stitches in my hand was cramping and I
was sweating like I'd just run amarathon, and I realized, oh
shite, I had sewed part of thegauze into my skin Like
literally attached it.
At this point I was bothhorrified and impressed with
myself.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yeah, no, kidding, you go you.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
I had no choice but to go to the ER, where the
doctor took one look at myhandiwork and sighed deeply and
muttered oh, you tried to dothis yourself, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah, buddy, I got a gauze sewed on my hand.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
Long story short.
They removed my craft project,stitched me it properly and gave
me a solid lecture on why.
Sewing skills do not translateto medicine.
My family still calls me Dr.
Homek.
Not translate to medicine.
My family still calls me Dr.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Homek.
That's amazing, dr Homek.
Thank you so much for sharingthat story with us Ouch yeah.
Yowzies, can you imaginesticking a long straight needle?
Speaker 1 (54:11):
through.
No thanks, that was someone whodidn't want the copay.
That was someone who's like.
You know what I'm gonna savemyself the copay we're gonna get
there.
You know what, if you're gonnado that, at least try like super
glue first, because it's yeah,you know it's it's's sterile and
(54:42):
most of the time I can get thejob done, as long as you don't
glue unnecessary things to thearea.
But you know, I'm not a medicaldoctor.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Don't take our advice .
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah, don't take my advice.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Just pay the copay.
Oh wow, that was great.
Um, what can we expect to hearnext week?
Speaker 1 (54:59):
Jenna.
Well, okay, so tomorrow morning, throughout the rest of the
week I'm going to be in, uh,nalens, so I thought I should
cover something Nalens-ish.
So I'm thinking I'm going topresent a case about murder or
(55:22):
mercy Hurricane Katrina and acase about euthanasia or murder.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Oh, okay, I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Whether it was euthanasia or murder.
Yeah, yeah, okay, well, wewillanasia or murder?
Yeah yeah, okay.
Well, we will look forward tothat.
Thanks Me too.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
She's like yeah, me too, I have to write a script
while I'm in New.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
Orleans.
I'll do my research in person.
It's going to be live baby,right.
So don't miss a beat.
Subscribe or follow doctoringthe truth wherever you enjoy
your podcast, for stories thatshock, intrigue and educate.
Trust, after all, is a delicatething.
You can text us directly on ourwebsite at
(56:09):
doctoringthetruthatbuzzsproutcom.
You can support the show byclicking on the subscriber link
to the podcast for as low as $3,$3, $3 a month, you guys, it's
not even a coffee and you couldsupport an entire podcast.
Uh, we'll give you a shout outon the show.
(56:30):
Uh, and we're looking for waysto bring more rewards in the
future.
This might include exclusivecontent, early access to
episodes, fun merch and more.
And we're looking for ways tobring more rewards in the future
.
This might include exclusivecontent, early access to
episodes, fun merch and more.
Please email us your medicalmishaps and story ideas, along
with any comments atdoctoringthetruth at gmail, and
be sure to follow us oninstagram at doctoringthetruth.
(56:51):
Don't forget to download, rateand review so we can be sure to
bring you more content, moremore content more content next
week.
Until then, stay safe and staysuspicious.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Why did we just go slow-mo?
Speaker 1 (57:13):
Bye, you be safe and nola, okay, bye I don't know why
I do that, because, like I, I'mnowhere near figuring out how
(57:33):
to, and I got the sun in my eyesso
Amanda Jenna Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello, hello, hello.
How are you?
You know, I'm doing pretty darnfine.
How are?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
you.
That sounds amazing, I'm good.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I got a lot of sleep last night, so I'm feeling good.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yay, sleep helps, sleep is the universal happiness
, med um.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm going to conference in nolans she's going
to nola baby next week.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, or she a hot shot.
She's sharing a poster I am.
I got a poster.
I got a voodoo ghost tourbooked I mean it's going to be a
time.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Why aren't you taking me with you?
Oh wait.
I just got back from aconference.
I won't be conference greedy,but I wish I was going.
That sounds amazing.
It's going to be fun.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, show me something, throw me something,
speaking of which you're goingto show me this time, this week,
amanda, it's your turn.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's my turn, baby.
We're going to tap into thatcosmetic plastic surgery world.
We haven't been there yet, no,so you're going to learn a lot
about that.
Today.
I learned a lot researchingthis, so I'm excited to share.
But before we do that, may Ijust applaud us that we have
(01:32):
nothing to correct what.
There's.
No correction section.
No correction section Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Not that I'm aware of , I mean, there's probably some
out there, but thank you forgiving us a week's respite.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, they were like they need a break after that
sports situation.
And then at the end of our lastepisode, I was like, oh my gosh
, we should share our websitestory.
And then we were like this isalready over an hour and we
didn't even have it pulled up,so I'm going to share that
quickly.
To start, it's from a usernamein Mankato, minnesota.
(02:16):
We didn't have permission toshare this person's name, so I'm
just going to read the story.
But this story was sharedbecause of your case.
That you did.
That took place in a nursinghome, so this listener shares.
I worked for a nursing home inphoenix back in 2014.
I loved talking to residents sothat they trusted me.
(02:38):
One lady kept telling me howthe nurse's aid was so mean to
her in stealing her jewelry andmoney.
Well, I went and talked to thehead nurse and she kept telling
me that she was not in her rightmind and didn't know what she
was talking about.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So annoying, that's my saying so annoying.
And then the listener writesshe would not even look into the
situation.
The nurse's aides were so upsetwith me that they called a
meeting and told everyone I wasstealing this woman's clothes.
What?
Those aides became friends withall the rest and they stood
(03:13):
against me.
I left the room and neverreturned to my job.
Oh my gosh, that was only oneincident.
The residents told me it mademe so sick that I could not
protect this lady.
I called the state and put in acomplaint, but nothing was ever
done.
I will never go into a nursinghome.
Oh, I'm so sorry that happenedto you.
I gotta talk about some bulliesin the workplace right.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I got an email from someone to our gmail about this
as well, so I'm going to add.
This person says nursing homestake rehab patients too, as well
as more complex patients.
You can't use restraintswithout a doctor's orders, and
even then they're hard to get.
The statement is true forhealthcare across the board.
(03:58):
We're expected to do more andmore with less.
Also, part of the conversationwhen discussing placement for a
woman is that they can expecttheir husbands to stop visiting
them.
Oh, this person says Iabsolutely adore my residence
and my aides are indispensableto me.
Anonymous.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh, I hate that trend in healthcare of do more with
less.
Yeah, yeah, it's such a badtrend, right.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Thank you for writing in.
Yeah, no, we appreciate thecomments.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
And we're all here to commiserate together.
Absolutely All right, y'all,are you ready to get into this?
I'm ready, she ready for somefootball?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
no, just kidding, we're not going back down the
sports massive correction.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
The next episode will just be correction section yeah
, no, it's, uh, baseball season,baby.
Yeah, I also don't knowanything about baseball, so
anyway, um, here we go.
There are no trigger warningsfor this episode.
Oh, not that I thought.
Anyways, okay, set the mood.
(05:13):
Mood, set, mood set.
Have you ever caught yourselfstaring in the mirror thinking
if only I could change this onething, I'd feel better.
Oh yeah, it's a.
It's a feeling.
Many of us know all too well theurge to reshape ourselves into
something we think we should be,and for some, that feeling
(05:35):
leads to a choice that'sbecoming more and more common
turning to cosmetic or plasticsurgery to fix what feels broken
.
We live in a world where bodyimage is ever shifting and
expectations are unrealisticAmen.
Jean-anne Schwark found herselffighting this internal battle
In the fall of 2006,.
(05:56):
She decided that she was tiredof feeling self-conscious and
she wanted to look a little bitbetter in her bathing suit.
At 45 years old and a mother offive, she made the decision to
have some work done on her upperbody and back of her arms.
She found an ad in a localpaper for minimally invasive
lunchtime lipo where you couldgo back to work the next day.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Lunch.
I'm sorry, lunchtime lipo, it'sso catchy.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Oh my gosh, so catchy .
No anesthesia other than local,the ad highlighted.
With a background in healthcare, herself working as a nurse
practitioner, she wasn't worriedin the slightest.
She researched the clinic atAnthem Medical Plaza, as well as
the provider, and everythingchecked out, so she scheduled
(06:45):
her appointment.
September 14, 2006 wasprocedure day.
Jean Ann arrived and wasassured by a Dr Peter Norman
that if anything happened to hershe'd be in good hands.
Dr Norman began handing herseveral pills and, as a nurse
practitioner, she tried her bestto keep track of what she was
(07:06):
putting in her mouth.
Jean ann was someone that nevertook any pills, so she knew
that anything she took would hither hard, and I resonate with
that because I also never takepills.
So, like the couple times I'vehad surgery, I'm like it's not
gonna take very much.
Just, I'm a lightweight, right,it'll be fine, yeah so yeah,
(07:28):
don't overdo it, folks, yeah.
I'm not gonna need a lot of guys, yeah, um.
So she knew pills would hit herhard.
This brings us to 10 pm, whereJeananne woke up freezing in the
dark on a cold table covered inblood.
What she felt?
(07:51):
As though she had been beatenup.
She mustered the strength topull herself off the table and
leave the clinic as quickly asshe could.
When she woke the next day, herbed looked like a crime scene
covered in blood.
She then examined herself andfound six to eight holes in her
body that already lookedinfected.
She treated herself with woundirrigations and decided she
(08:14):
would let them heal on her ontheir own.
She knew that this was beyondnegligence, but she opted not to
complain to the Arizona MedicalBoard due to professional
embarrassment and the fact thatshe blamed herself.
While Jean Ann would be luckyenough to survive her wounds,
others would not be as fortunate, with headlines reading Plastic
Surgeon Convicted of MultipleMurders.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Oh my god.
So they left her there on thetable for her to just-.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I know I really don't understand that.
What To just?
It happens again, just liketake herself out of there.
Oh my, they're just like how wegive up.
Bye, we're going home fordinner.
Like what the hell's happeninghere?
Oh my gosh.
So a mr peter norman was bornon April 16th 1961.
(09:03):
And there is limited backgroundinformation on him online,
which is okay, because I'drather focus on his victims and
his crimes today rather thandissect whether or not he had a
happy childhood, which is notvery nice to me, I swear I'm a
nice lady.
Anyway, he earned his medicaldegree in June of 1994 from St
(09:26):
George's University School ofMedicine in Granada, which is in
the West Indies.
He completed a three-yearresidency in internal medicine
at Roger Williams Medical Centerin Providence, rhode Island,
and went on to practiceemergency medicine in New York
State for 16 years beforedeciding to move to Arizona and
(09:46):
establish his own medicalpractice where he would provide
cosmetic procedures.
The issue with this was that,while Peter Norman was a doctor,
he did not have the necessaryqualifications for practice of
this kind.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Oh dear.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Little spoiler alert here.
He was convicted for the deathsof three patients at his clinic
in Anthem, Arizona between 2006and 2007.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
His lack of training in plastic surgery and
negligence in performing complexprocedures led to the tragic
deaths of Ralph Gonzalez, aliciaSantizo Blanco and Leslie Ann
Ray.
Not only is this a tragic case,it also exposed disturbing
practices, including theexploitation of vulnerable
communities, which we'll getinto and you're going to be
(10:36):
pissed, and the broader issue ofunqualified practitioners in
the field of cosmetic surgery.
This case begs the question ofwhen does a medical mistake turn
to murder?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Ralph Gonzalez was born November 30th 1973.
He was noted to be a quietchild, more of an observer, and
very easygoing.
His mother said in an interviewthat he was quote a great son.
You could trust him.
Ralph was born and raised inMiddletown, new York, and moved
to Arizona when he was 19 yearsold.
(11:12):
One day he called his motherand told her that he wanted to
have his stomach flattened.
He had been running about fivemiles a day and couldn't get rid
of his stomach.
In his eyes.
He assured his mom that theprocedure would be quick and
easy and he'd be right back towork.
His mom told him that shedidn't think it was necessary,
but he was an adult and sherespected his decision to move
(11:35):
forward with the procedure.
In that same interview she wasquoted to say she was trusting
that his doctor is an honestperson and usually doctors are
you're gonna tell me it wasn't Idon't think so.
David duarte was a firstresponder on duty when they
(11:56):
received a 911 call to acosmetic surgery clinic for a
patient who had stoppedbreathing while undergoing a
liposuction procedure.
They arrived at Dr Norman'sclinic and he recounted.
The first thing that he noticedupon arrival was the patient's
stomach.
He said it looked like he wasnine months pregnant.
Oh no, he presumed that it wasdistended, which is a good
(12:21):
indication that the airway tubethat was inserted was not in the
trachea, rather the esophaguswhich goes directly into the
stomach.
Oh, rather, the esophagus whichgoes directly into the stomach.
When first responders arrived,staff were performing CPR, but
David noted that they didn'tseem as though they had any
medical training at all.
They were very panicky, withlooks of terror in their eyes.
(12:42):
David asked not good at all.
David asked Dr Norman who hadintubated the tube, and he said
he did.
That is where the confrontationbegan.
David was very confident thatthe tube was in the wrong place
because he couldn't hear anylung sounds.
Dr Norman barked at him thathe's been an ER doctor for 16
(13:05):
years and it's in the rightplace.
And that's when David snarkedback and said, quote well, I've
been a paramedic for 14 years,and if you'd done your fucking
job, I wouldn't be here.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Oh, can I just say good for him.
Oh, my God, I know.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I know David is a true hero in this story.
Emotions were high and it wastime to transport Ralph to the
hospital.
Dr Norman requested to ridealong in the ambulance to the
hospital, which is an extremelyunusual request.
While in the ambulance, davidbegan to remove the endotracheal
tube and Dr Norman keptstopping him.
(13:44):
They fought back and forthabout whether or not it was in
the right place.
David then became physical,grabbing him by the throat and
slamming him against theambulance wall.
He told him quote if you evertouch me again, I will break
your fucking arm off and beatyou to death with it oh wow, I
know like, but also he wants tosave that patient david's just
(14:07):
trying to do his job and savethis patient's life in this
asshat norman who just is like Iwant to ride an ambulance, it's
like no shithead, you've doneenough, please stay behind.
so david then successfullyremoved the tube out of the
stomach and grabbed a new tubeto place.
Dr Norman grabbed it out of hishands and inserted it blindly.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Oh no, oh no, that's not good, that's not good.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Ralph immediately began pulling blood from his
mouth.
They arrived at the hospitaland he was placed in the care of
the ER team and one hour laterOne hour later he was pronounced
dead at the age of 33 fromliposuction?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Oh no, All because he didn't know how to intubate.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
You're catching on here.
Yes, so the day of theprocedure, ralph's mom was
waiting for his call.
You know mama button, she'sworried, oh gosh.
So her phone rang and sheanswered.
It was Ralph calling.
But it wasn't Ralph.
It was Dr Norman on the otherend of the line.
(15:23):
He informed her that Ralph haddied.
She couldn't believe it.
It was supposed to be a routineprocedure.
How could this happen?
She said about that moment,quote your heart goes down to
the floor.
This is someone that you loveso much and is never going to be
around again.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I can't.
Imagine.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
David called the Arizona Medical Board and filed
an official complaint.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, I mean, David did everything he could, but my
goodness.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I know and he had said that's why he felt inclined
to file this official complaintbecause he felt like it was the
last thing he could try and dofor Ralph.
So in January of 2007, theArizona Medical Board opened an
investigation.
There was little information onDr Norman because he was new to
(16:13):
the area of practice.
Dr Edward Eads, who is anArizona Medical Board consultant
, was asked to look into him.
He found what we know to betrue, that he completed
undergrad in the States and wentto medical school in the
Caribbean.
After med school he became anER doc in New York and around
2004 or 2005, he moved toArizona and apparently decided
(16:37):
he wanted to become a cosmeticsurgeon, opening his own
practice.
An investigation firstdetermines if the doctor is in
serious violation of one of 32statutes, with the most
important of these being isthere a danger to the public?
The medical board couldn't finda serious violation of the 32
statutes and he wasn't inapparent danger to the community
(17:00):
, so the case was dismissed.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Okay, I have a question Like so in order for
someone to become an allergistor an otolaryngologist, they
have to do a fellowship.
Do I have to do a fellowship inplastic surgery, or is that not
a thing?
Yeah, we're going to get intothat?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, that's a great question.
Yes, okay, okay.
So that brings us to AliciaCentizo Blanco, who was born on
December 15th 1965, andunfortunately passed away on
April 25th 2007, at the hands ofDr Norman.
Oh gosh, again littleinformation that I could find on
(17:42):
Alicia.
But we do know that she hadbeen receiving cosmetic surgery
procedures that her family wasunaware of.
Yeah, she had had.
Yeah, I mean, that's somethingpeople don't talk about, right?
They're embarrassed, right?
Let's see, she had had multipleprocedures completed by Dr
Norman, such as breast implants,liposuction and fat injections.
(18:04):
She was going back to have somelipo redone as well as perform
a fat grafting procedure, whichis known as the Brazilian butt
lift.
Jeff Heinrichs was a paramedicon duty the day of her procedure
.
His crew was dispatched to DrNorman's office for a
41-year-old female who codedduring liposuction.
Paramedics were met by DrNorman at the door and he said
(18:28):
he wasn't sure why the patienthad coded.
Jeff listened for placement ofthe tube and he told dr norman
that he didn't think the tubewas in the right place.
They argued back and forthabout this until jeff made the
decision to pull the tube out tobe replaced before transport.
Dr norman again insisted thathe ride to the hospital.
(18:48):
Freaking weirdo when.
When they arrived, it's like isthat how you want to still have
control over the situation,Right, because you know you
fucked up?
Yeah, when they arrived at thehospital, she had a pulse and
was transferred to the care ofthe ER team.
She passed away three hourslater.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
While at the hospital , jeff ran into David who had
brought in a different patient.
He told him that his cosmeticsurgeon guy struck again and
that they just brought in apatient of his.
David was beyond furious andcouldn't believe that this had
happened for a second time.
He called the medical boardagain and left a detailed
message of the second occurrence.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Good for him.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yes.
So David was worried that thefirst case against him had been
dismissed because he haddisclosed that they had been
fighting.
So they took it, as I know theydidn't just take it as a
personal thing because he wasn'tin violation of one of the 32
statutes and he wasn't inapparent danger to the public.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
But david personally felt like yeah, if I wouldn't
have fought with him maybesomething different.
Yeah, yeah so when thishappened again, he was like I
have to say something again whatare the odds that he was around
to know this so they couldreport him again?
Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Alicia's son, frey, received a call from the
hospital that his mother wasthere and that she wasn't going
to make it through the night.
He was in disbelief.
He had just spoken to her theday before and she was just fine
.
And now he was getting a phonecall that he needed to head to
the hospital to his goodbyes.
By the time he arrived, she hadsadly passed away.
(20:34):
The hospital informed him ofmore specifics, like where she
had had the procedure done andwho the doctor was.
Fray drove to the clinic andburst through the door demanding
to talk to dr norman.
When he stood in front of him,all he could manage to say was
what were you thinking?
What were you doing?
Frey recounted that all DrNorman said was I'm sorry and
(20:56):
walked away.
Alicia's death was only fourmonths after the death of Ralph.
While the initial investigationwas dismissed, it was a red
flag that there was a seconddeath in his clinic in only four
months.
The medical board wasn't sureif he was able to safely
practice medicine at this point,so they drafted an interim
(21:19):
practice restriction so thatthey could ensure he wouldn't
have any other patients in hiscare until the board had an
opportunity to complete athorough investigation.
Oh, that's good.
Yes, the Go Arizona Medical.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Board.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, no, I think they did their due diligence.
They did good.
Dr Eads was again asked to be aconsultant for the
investigation.
He now had the opportunity todo a review of records, where he
noted several deviations fromthe standard of care as it
pertains to Ralph.
These were his findings Beforethe actual liposuction began.
(21:54):
Ralph's oxygen levels droppedquickly and his heart stopped
what.
Ralph had 10 times the lethaldose of lidocaine in his system,
which is why his heart stoppedwhat.
His death was noted to be theresult of an adverse reaction to
medications administered forcosmetic liposuction.
(22:15):
Another thing the investigationshowed was that his abdomen was
severely distended due toincorrect endotracheal tube
placement.
In regard to Alicia a, Dr Eadsfound that during surgery she
suffered cardiac arrest oh mygosh he explained that a risk of
fat grafting is a fat embolism.
(22:38):
Fat can mistakenly be injectedinto a vein during the procedure
, which can then transfer allthe way to the heart and enter
the lungs, which causes theheart to stop.
This was the cause of her death.
Dr Dorman failed to inform EMSpersonnel or the staff in the ER
that fat embolism was even apossibility, and had he, they
(22:59):
might have had the opportunityto save her life.
But he's a piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
In addition to these grave medical errors uncovered,
he also discovered that many ofthe patients that had come to
the clinic had found ads thatwere placed in Spanish-language
newspapers that are circulatedin Mexican-American communities.
These are hard-working folkswho were said to often have cold
hard cash to spend.
He advertised in Spanish, butwhen patients would come to sign
(23:32):
legal documents, the documentswere all in english.
Oh funny that, yeah.
Lead attorney for the case,dean brecchi, noted that many of
the spanish-speaking people inthis particular community are
undocumented, so they arenaturally afraid to come forward
with any complaints because,while, yes, they were harmed,
they didn't want anydocumentation that they were
(23:53):
here.
How freaking sad is that, oh god, it's tragic he believed that
norman wanted to get money frompeople who weren't going to
complain.
Of course he did, and when youthink it couldn't get any worse,
they also found that he hadmedical equipment that wasn't
registered, medications thatweren't stored properly or
securely, and his staff membersdid not have any surgical
(24:15):
training.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I mean his staff members seemed like they didn't
even have basic life supporttraining because they were
freaking out about trying to doCPR.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
And like, if it's your first time doing CPR, okay,
fine, but for the whole room tosee panicky, it's like someone
has to take control in there.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean that's disgusting.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
In May of 2007, Dr Norman was under investigation
for the death of two patients injust under four months.
With an interim practicerestriction in place,
investigators were shocked tofind out that there had been
another death at his clinic.
What?
But before we get into that,it's a chart note.
Welcome to the chart notesegment, where we learn about
(25:03):
what's happening in medicine andhealthcare.
Why does chart note make usfeel like we should sing?
I love it, but I don't when Ihear it back.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
No, I'm always like eee lie, Sorry, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Sorry everybody, although I did have someone tell
me that.
I've actually had a couplepeople tell me your voice was
made for podcasting.
But someone particularly toldme that my voice scratched an
itch in their brain.
So shout out to Morgan, thatwas so nice Scratched an itch.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Oh, that was a positive Good.
Good, good, good, good for you.
Oh, is that not that your voicescratched and itched in her
brain?
I suppose?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
yeah, like you know, like when you're like scratch a
dog and they get like the earlykids.
I don't know, I took it as agood type of thing.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
That's a good thing, then, because you, you, you, you
scratch your itch.
If it was just itching, thenthat would not be good, right?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
oh my gosh yeah, I see where you're going with that
, but but I'm telling you, yeah.
It was a compliment.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I believe it because I know it to be true.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I listened to your voice and I'm just like oh boy,
lord, have mercy, I'll beblushing over here, okay, anyway
, chart note, y'all Chart note.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Chart note.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Okay.
So I looked up the trainingrequirements because I had the
same question.
You did um for plastic andcosmetic surgeons and I was
curious how one can be confidentthat they're going to go in for
a procedure and that the personperforming the procedure is
qualified to be doing saidprocedure.
Good, good question, very greatquestion.
(26:51):
So I found an excellent blogtitled San Francisco Plastic
Surgery Blog by Dr Joseph AMealy, who is a board certified
plastic surgeon in San Francisco.
He wrote about plastic surgerywarning signs and I'd like to
share some of his tips andtricks with you, as well as
share what I learned about thepathway to becoming a plastic or
(27:14):
cosmetic surgeon.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Here we go oh, an MD or DO medical degree that has
completed education, including abachelor's degree, which is
four years, a medical degree,another four years, and a
plastic surgery residencytraining lasting a minimum of
(27:39):
six years.
They may either choose to go toan integrated residency
training that combines threeyears of general surgery and
three years of plastic surgery,or an independent five-year
residency program in generalsurgery, followed by a
three-year plastic surgeryresidency oh so eight years,
holy cow, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So it's like medical school plus six to eight years.
I mean this is a couple moremedical schools, right?
Mean, this is what blows mymind.
It's not like you can justbecome a doctor and then decide
you're going to be a plasticsurgeon.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
This is a huge commitment yeah, yeah, it sure
is, and a huge commitment thatone a dr norman didn't take,
okay, um what the hell was hedoing?
I mean who gave him a loan toopen that clinic.
Okay, right, okay, carry on.
(28:41):
A person may then choose toattend a fellowship program in
one of the many subspecialtiesof plastic surgery.
Fellowships are one year orlonger.
The surgeon will then becomeboard certified by either the
American Board of PlasticSurgery or the American
Osteopathic Board of Surgery.
For DO Physicians, a boardcertified plastic surgeon can
(29:04):
work within six categories Handsurgery disorders.
Plastic surgeon can work withinsix categories Hand surgery
disorders, reconstructivesurgery, trauma surgery,
congenital defect repair andcosmetic surgery.
Now, that is for a plasticsurgeon, but we also have
cosmetic surgeons From theAmerican Board of Cosmetic
Surgery.
Cosmetic surgery and plasticsurgery both encompass improving
(29:26):
a patient's body.
The overarching philosophiesthat guide the training,
research and goals for patientoutcomes are different.
Cosmetic surgery focuses onenhancing appearance or
aesthetic appeal.
It treats areas that functionproperly and are elective
procedures.
Cosmetic elective procedurescan be performed by the doctors
(29:47):
from a variety of medicalprofessionals.
There are currently noresidency programs in the United
States devoted exclusively tocosmetic surgery.
Because of this, cosmeticsurgeons primarily obtain
training and experience aftercompleting their residency
training by completing apost-residency fellowship
training program in cosmeticsurgery.
(30:09):
There is board certification tobe obtained in cosmetic surgery
and the training experienceknowledge required to become
board certified reflectssubspecialization, above and
beyond what it takes to becomecertified in a related
discipline such as plasticsurgery.
That is so much, so many words,but it seems like it's.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
It's not actually, uh , as rigorous as becoming a
plastic surgeon.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
So if you're, if you're because it's just one of
those six.
Yeah, yeah, but as we'll learnin a minute here, yeah, okay, so
that's kind of what I wasthinking and then I learned um.
During this fellowship, thesurgeons receive a thorough
training in all cosmetic surgeryprocedures of the face, breast
(31:05):
and body, plus non-surgicalcosmetic treatments, performing
a minimum of 300 individualcosmetic surgery procedures.
The fellowship training is inaddition to completing a three
to five-year residency program.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Okay.
So if you're a surgeon andyou're advertising cosmetic
surgery, do you have to havethis legally, Do you?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Like I can't believe that you had a three to five
year residency in thisparticular.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
The answer is no, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
If you are going to look for a procedure for
yourself.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
I would beg you to look for these things.
But I also learned that peoplecan take classes, like online
classes, to become cosmeticallytrained, so that's what our boy
did but our boy didn't takebasic, like how to intubate a
patient, like I mean oh, but,but he apparently was an er
(32:02):
physician in new york.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Explain that yeah, and you can't maintain an airway
.
Come on, dude, you were puttingthe LMAs in the stomach.
Come on, that's, that's okay,anyway.
Okay, back to the chart.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Um, okay.
So yes, that was a lot, um.
But lastly, I did want to tiein the information um that Dr
Mealy had stated in his blogthat there are three places
every patient should checkbefore having plastic surgery.
So one American Board ofPlastic Surgery, two American
Board of Medical Specialties,abms, and number three, your
(32:40):
state's medical board.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
What are they checking, though?
They're checking that yoursurgeon is tested.
Tell you, okay, sorry so no,that's okay.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
So in the blog, dr mealy used these tools to search
dr norman and these were thefindings okay so a quick check
on the american board of plasticsurgery website reveals no
records found for dr norman.
This means he is not boardcertified plastic surgeon.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Suspicious.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Suspicious.
Okay, number two the ABMSwebsite is the best way for you
to determine what board hascertified your doctor.
A check of this website wouldreveal no certification by any
board.
For Dr Norman, yeah, a previouscheck of the healthgradescom
(33:31):
website would show that he wasboard certified in internal
medicine at some point in time,but cannot be corroborated by
the ABMS website.
The reasons for this, accordingto Dr Mealy, could be one he
was never board certified ininternal medicine.
Sketch, according to Dr Mealy,could be one he was never board
certified in internal medicine.
(33:52):
Sketch Two he was boardcertified in internal medicine
but he did not passrecertification.
Or three his board certificationwas removed after his Arizona
medical license was revoked.
The best case scenario here isthat Dr Norman was certified by
the American Board of InternalMedicine, but this is not a
surgical board.
So since this article hadposted, dr Norman has been
(34:16):
removed completely from thehealth grades website.
They were like fuck that guyGet him out of here.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Not a good sign Loser .
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And lastly, checking your state's medical board.
A check of the Arizona MedicalBoard previously revealed one
listing for him under thespecialty of emergency medicine.
The listing detailed that hedid graduate from medical school
in June of 1994 from StGeorge's blah blah blah.
It also showed that hecompleted a three-year residency
in Rhode Island.
The link to this has since beenremoved because no one wants
(34:49):
anything to do with Peter Dorman.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Okay, yeah, do your research.
I love that you gave us sometips and tools for Because you
know, no shade.
I mean, if a girl wants to getsome plastic surgery, go for it.
But my goodness, how would youeven know?
(35:13):
Because you know, obviouslytheir websites are going to be
all bright and shiny about allthe wonderful things that they
do.
So how do you know that who'sbehind this actually knows what
they're doing?
Who knew you could die from?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
what they're doing.
Who knew you could die from?
Well, you know, actually, andnot to like, scare anyone off
from getting plastic surgery orcosmetic procedures done because
there's nothing wrong with that, right?
But they I have read in so manyplaces while doing research on
this it is extremely rare to dieduring these.
This guy is just a fuckingidiot, of course.
But like, but, it's like youdon't go into going to get some
lipo?
Yeah, you're like sweet, I'mgonna look awesome in the
(35:54):
caimans.
This year I got a little lipo.
Oh wait, no, I'm not leavingwhat?
oh wait, I'm in heaven, so itdoesn't oh wait, I'm just
looking down on the caimansevery day now no, do you think
kevin is like the caimans?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I hope so and you don't need plastic surgery
because you have the perfectbody or sunscreen because you
don't sunburn, right?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
uh, you could just hang out in the sunshine all day
, not worry about sunburn.
Can you guys tell we arecraving some vitamin d?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
up in minnesota.
Wow, we need some spring, weneed bring it.
Yeah, yes, okay, okay.
Back to the case, back to thiscase.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Oh baby, oh no okay, all right, it's gonna get dark
for shoot Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
That's what we're all about.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Sorry to burst your bubble.
I don't know why I'm surprised.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
This is our podcast people yeah, okay.
Yep, okay, bring it down.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Okay, leslie Ann Ray, born July 9th 1953, would be
the third and final victim of DrNorman.
Limited information on Leslie'sbackground was available online
.
She arrived for her liposuctionon July 5th.
Surgery was not performed by DrNorman because you know he has
(37:18):
those darn restrictions in place, but he circumvented these
restrictions by hiring a Dr,gary Page, who was a homeopathic
physician, to do the surgeries.
Oh, dr page was not licensed inarizona to perform procedures
of any kind, but here he was,under the direction of dr norman
(37:39):
, performing cosmetic surgery.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
The ass leading, the ass hat okay wonderful tell me
this had no monetary um drivenyeah okay, dr page was noted to
leave the clinic around 7 pm.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Sometime in the night dr norman charted that leslie
had stopped breathing and beganto perform cpr and instructed
someone to call 9-1-1.
I'm just, I can't stop thinkingabout like these are routine
procedures.
You go back to work the nextday like why the hell are people
spending the night?
Speaker 1 (38:13):
it's an out.
Yeah, what do you mean?
Spending the night?
It's an outpatient procedure,was she's just still on the
table?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
she was still right did you just learn from gene ann
?
You didn't want to leave her inthe cold dark anymore.
You staying with, staying withhim now, like what the hell,
buddy?
I?
Speaker 1 (38:28):
mean yeah, there's so many things wrong with this.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Yeah.
So Mike Parks was the EMT onduty.
Arriving at the clinic, he toonoticed that Leslie's stomach
was distended.
It appeared that she had notbeen breathing for quite a while
.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Yeah, her airway was not secure people.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I'm sorry Her stomach was inflated, not her okay, not
her lungs yeah, I'm choking uphere, okay she was transported
to the hospital where she passedaway shortly after.
At this point, the clinic wasclosed and treated as a crime
scene.
Yeah, when searching the clinic, they found a bloody
endotracheal tube in the trashcan and believed that he
(39:09):
attempted to intubate Leslie,even though his note didn't
indicate that he did.
Yeah, because he doesn't knowwhat he's doing he's an idiot.
They later confirmed during I'msorry.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Why doesn't he have an anesthesia tech?
I mean, this is their job.
They're so good at the securingairway they are excellent,
cheap to have to have any staffprobably okay, anyway.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Um, I hope I put something about this in there
later, but if not, I'll mentionit anyway.
You gotta go back.
Just kidding, hey, um, whereare we?
Oh?
Speaker 1 (39:46):
sorry um.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
He attempted to intimidate her, but his no, yes,
and and his note said he didn't, because he's a big fat liar,
okay.
They later confirmed during anautopsy that he did in fact
attempt to intubate her, causinga tear which, sadly, sealed her
fate.
His license to practice inarizona was revoked.
Medical investigators knew thatthey needed to stop him
(40:09):
permanently because while he wasnow unable to practice in
arizona, that wouldn't stop himfrom practicing in another state
.
Patients were not just dying,they were being killed.
This is not just negligence.
At this point, everyone wasunsure if he could even save a
patient's life.
With three deaths in sevenmonths.
This wasn't bad luck, people.
This was a bad doctor.
(40:31):
Yeah, he was indicted on twocharges of murder in the second
degree for the deaths of ralphgonzalez and leslie ray, and one
charge of manslaughter for thedeath of alicia santizo.
He was arrested and given theopportunity of bail, which she
posted, of course.
He then disappeared.
(40:52):
He fled the country to avoidprosecution.
Prosecutors believe that he hadfled to Germany because his
wife was from there.
A fugitive team was looking forhim and a warrant was issued
for him.
Should he ever resurface in theUnited States?
He had been gone for a yearwhen, in October of 2000, I
(41:13):
deleted my note.
It says 200.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
It's October of 200, but I'm thinking, I'm thinking.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
That ain't right 2000 something, something.
Yeah, well, it was a.
I think it's 2008.
We're going to go 2008.
Okay, he was arrested at theairport in Kentucky.
Since he had well proven thathe was a flight risk, he was
held in jail without theopportunity of bail until he was
able to be prosecuted Shame,which brings us to summer of
(41:41):
2011.
The case was tried in court.
Prosecutors noted that it wouldbe a tough case to beat because
they had to prove that he wasbeing reckless.
All three cases were triedtogether in one trial.
The prosecution had stated tothe courtroom quote he didn't
kill them with a gun.
He killed them with arroganceand in this case, the motivation
was greed.
End quote.
(42:03):
The defense's stance was thatthe issue was whether or not
these were homicides.
They argued that these weremedical accidents and inherent
risk of the procedures.
Oh, come on, gag me.
Oh, it came out during thetrial that after Leslie's death,
peter Norman still had themotherfucking audacity to charge
(42:25):
her credit card for the fullamount of the procedure.
The prosecution stated she paidfor her own death.
That tells you what kind ofperson he is.
It's disgusting.
It was also revealed that hehad only seven sessions of
training in liposuction, sothose like weekend online
(42:46):
whatever he had never done, aresidency in plastic surgery or
anesthesiology.
Other disturbing, otherdisturbing details brought to
light were that he had beenrelying on a massage therapist
and a former restaurant workerwith little to no training as
medical assistants.
They were the ones working inthe operating room.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Oh, how unfair was it to them as well, I mean yeah,
the massage therapist also wascharged.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
They pleaded guilty and they were charged to five
years.
What which I obviously didn'tgo into, but fun fact, which I
obviously didn't go into, butfun fact um, the operating room
lacked proper oxygen andmonitoring equipment.
Norman said in the courtroom no, he sat in the courtroom
listening to families sharetheir stories of how these
(43:40):
deaths tore their worlds apart,but he chose not to testify
coward on september 20th 2011.
Did you say turd I?
Speaker 1 (43:53):
said coward, but he's a turd as well.
I'll use a turd bucket for sure, but I mean yeah okay.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
so 67 days later, on the day of sentencing, peter
norman spoke to the judge andsaid quote, I express my deepest
sorrows.
To the day of sentencing, peterNorman spoke to the judge and
said quote, I express my deepestsorrows to the families of
Ralph Gonzalez, alicia Santizoand Leslie Ray.
He then went on to say, quoteI'm particularly angry at David
Duarte for lying on the stand.
(44:23):
I think that is just outrageousthat he came forward to your
court and said what he said.
It's just simply not true.
End quote Wah, wah, wah, huh.
The judge replied with In oursociety, I think we all look up
to doctors, and when doctorstake an oath of do no harm,
(44:44):
there is a reason.
We look up to them, we trustthem.
Sir, I do find that you didharm and you violated your oath,
and for that you deserve a verystiff punishment heck yeah, oh
yeah, that sounds great, rightlike, yeah, let's get him.
Well, hold your stomachs,because they're about to drop,
because this motherfucker wasonly sentenced to 25 years in
(45:05):
prison.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
What he killed three people.
At least that way, no Uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Yeah, that came.
Yeah, yeah, Okay.
So Norman later appealed hisconviction because the judge
ruled that all three of thecases could be tried in the same
trial to the same jury and thatthat was prejudicial.
His conviction was thenoverturned by the Arizona Court
of Appeals, which meant that thecounty attorney had to start
(45:34):
all over.
On October 3rd 2016, the trialfor the murder of Leslie Ann Ray
began.
The jury came back in shortorder with a guilty verdict for
second-degree murder.
The following May, he settledon the other two cases with the
same results as the first Oneguilty verdict for second degree
murder and one for manslaughter.
(45:54):
So he was sentenced for 10years for each count of murder
and five years for the count ofmanslaughter, for that same
total of 25 years.
I just, I don't understand thelack of punishment.
No, um, ralph's mom actually.
So then, like, families get togive their statements, and
(46:17):
ralph's mom had said to thejudge or to the courtroom or
whatever, to everyone presentthrough a microphone, um, that
people get more time for hurtinganimals, exactly, and he took
her son away and other people,yes, and, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
And he willfully exercised his negligence, which
led to deaths, I mean.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Driven by greed?
Yeah, as evidenced by himcharging her credit card after
she already died.
What a psycho.
Oh my God, I don't get it.
So um, this, this gem, isactually eligible for release
this year.
Oh wonderful yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Well, please tell me he will no longer have a license
to practice anywhere in theUnited States.
Is that something?
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah, so he.
He cannot practice in theunited states anymore, but what
will stop him from doing thisagain overseas?
I mean, he already went togermany once.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Oh gosh, that's right , yeah it's not like we can stop
him from going to africa orsomewhere they already suffered
swango.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
They don't need him like your swango.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
They don't need him.
I know like your swango dude.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Oh my gosh.
The case of Dr Peter Norman isa cautionary tale that
highlights the dangers ofunqualified practitioners in the
field of cosmetic surgery.
His reckless practices led tothe loss of three innocent lives
and caused irreversible painfor their families.
Absolutely, the broaderimplications of the case point
to systemic issues withinmedical regulation, exploitation
(47:52):
of vulnerable populations andthe need for greater patient
awareness.
The deaths of Ralph Gonzalez,alicia Santizo and Leslie Ray
were entirely preventable andthe case serves as a stark
reminder of the importance ofproper qualifications,
regulation and vigilance in themedical field.
And lastly, as shared in DrMealy's blog, your federal and
(48:17):
state governments cannot protectyou.
Every state maintains a medicalboard.
Their job is to check thetraining of all physicians and
surgeons practicing in the stateand, if qualified, the board
allows the qualified doctors topurchase a license to practice
medicine.
Each state has its own board,but the requirements are not
widely varied.
The federal governmentregulates prescription drug use
(48:40):
and licensed physicians canpurchase a DEA certificate which
allows them to prescribe drugs.
Neither the state nor thefederal government restrict the
practice of medicine based onthe type of training the doctor
has completed.
The MD degree is granted aftercompleting medical school and a
state license is granted inCalifornia after completing one
year of internship and passingrequired exams.
(49:01):
With a state license, a DEAcertificate can be obtained
before any specialized trainingis started.
Since a license is grantedbefore specialized training is
started, there are norestrictions on the type of
medicine a license holder canperform.
A doctor trained in internalmedicine, which should focus on
diabetes, high blood pressure,lung disease, can perform brain
(49:24):
surgery, as long as they conformto the standard of care.
This pushes the responsibilityonto hospitals.
Hospital medical staff reviewqualifications within each
specialty and grant privilegesfor specific procedures after a
period of supervised proctoring.
This peer review can help forhospital-based disciplines like
(49:45):
brain surgery.
But most cosmetic surgery isoutpatient surgery and not
performed in a hospital.
The American Society of PlasticSurgery and the American
Society for Aesthetic PlasticSurgery both require that all
members have hospital privilegesfor all procedures they perform
, even if they are normallyperformed outside of the
hospital.
(50:06):
So this has been a big debatethroughout the years for the
states to do more to protectcitizens from unqualified
doctors practicing outside oftheir scope of training.
Special interest money has madethis almost impossible and
there is little interest indrafting difficult legislation.
And just he noted thisobviously does nothing to do
(50:27):
with breast implants, but whilereviewing silicone breast
implant leakage rates, the FDAnoted that leaks occurred most
often at the hands ofnon-certified, non-board
certified plastic surgeons,often in the operating room.
It's just a buyer bewaresituation for bargain basement
plastic surgery.
It's up to you to find the bestdoctor.
(50:49):
It's your body, your health andyour life.
Plastic surgery is elective andyou have time to decide how you
want to proceed and who youwant to trust.
Resources are available onlineto help you make the best
decision possible, and while therecommendations above cannot
guarantee perfect results, theycan certainly improve your odds
(51:14):
wow, I mean done, done.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
That was eye-opening.
I mean, I did not know a lot ofthis, so thank you for bringing
that to our attention.
Great research, great story.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Thank you, thank you thank you, thank, thank you,
thank you.
Um, all of the resources that Iused, um will be in the
footnotes, um, so, uh, do youhave a little medical mishap for
us?
Speaker 1 (51:43):
I do.
Um, this week we have an emailfrom anonymous and, by the way,
if you want us, if we're able toshout out your name, let us
know you can use my name.
If you don't say specificallythat we can use your name,
you're going to be nameless.
No, you're going to beanonymous, yeah, so okay.
(52:07):
So this email says hey guyslove the podcast.
I have a medical mishap thatstill gets me roasted at family
gatherings.
So a few years ago I wasslicing an avocado oh gosh, uh,
those slippery little suckers.
Parentheses yes, I know, rookiemistake and parentheses and I
(52:29):
somehow managed to stab myselfin the hand so badly that it
definitely needed stitches.
Oh no, but instead of going tothe er like a normal person, I
thought, hey, I've seen youtubevideos, I can totally do this
myself.
so oh my gosh, I grabbed aneedle and thread from my sewing
(52:53):
kit because obviously a kitmeant for buttons is definitely
surgical grade.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Oh yeah, and the long straight needle, that'll work
really well for stitches andstarted stitching myself up.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
About three stitches in my hand was cramping and I
was sweating like I'd just run amarathon, and I realized, oh
shite, I had sewed part of thegauze into my skin Like
literally attached it.
At this point I was bothhorrified and impressed with
myself.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yeah, no, kidding, you go you.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
I had no choice but to go to the ER, where the
doctor took one look at myhandiwork and sighed deeply and
muttered oh, you tried to dothis yourself, didn't you?
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah, buddy, I got a gauze sewed on my hand.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
Long story short.
They removed my craft project,stitched me it properly and gave
me a solid lecture on why.
Sewing skills do not translateto medicine.
My family still calls me Dr.
Homek.
Not translate to medicine.
My family still calls me Dr.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Homek.
That's amazing, dr Homek.
Thank you so much for sharingthat story with us Ouch yeah.
Yowzies, can you imaginesticking a long straight needle?
Speaker 1 (54:11):
through.
No thanks, that was someone whodidn't want the copay.
That was someone who's like.
You know what I'm gonna savemyself the copay we're gonna get
there.
You know what, if you're gonnado that, at least try like super
glue first, because it's yeah,you know it's it's's sterile and
(54:42):
most of the time I can get thejob done, as long as you don't
glue unnecessary things to thearea.
But you know, I'm not a medicaldoctor.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Don't take our advice .
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Yeah, don't take my advice.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Just pay the copay.
Oh wow, that was great.
Um, what can we expect to hearnext week?
Speaker 1 (54:59):
Jenna.
Well, okay, so tomorrow morning, throughout the rest of the
week I'm going to be in, uh,nalens, so I thought I should
cover something Nalens-ish.
So I'm thinking I'm going topresent a case about murder or
(55:22):
mercy Hurricane Katrina and acase about euthanasia or murder.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Oh, okay, I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Whether it was euthanasia or murder.
Yeah, yeah, okay, well, wewillanasia or murder?
Yeah yeah, okay.
Well, we will look forward tothat.
Thanks Me too.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
She's like yeah, me too, I have to write a script
while I'm in New.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
Orleans.
I'll do my research in person.
It's going to be live baby,right.
So don't miss a beat.
Subscribe or follow doctoringthe truth wherever you enjoy
your podcast, for stories thatshock, intrigue and educate.
Trust, after all, is a delicatething.
You can text us directly on ourwebsite at
(56:09):
doctoringthetruthatbuzzsproutcom.
You can support the show byclicking on the subscriber link
to the podcast for as low as $3,$3, $3 a month, you guys, it's
not even a coffee and you couldsupport an entire podcast.
Uh, we'll give you a shout outon the show.
(56:30):
Uh, and we're looking for waysto bring more rewards in the
future.
This might include exclusivecontent, early access to
episodes, fun merch and more.
And we're looking for ways tobring more rewards in the future
.
This might include exclusivecontent, early access to
episodes, fun merch and more.
Please email us your medicalmishaps and story ideas, along
with any comments atdoctoringthetruth at gmail, and
be sure to follow us oninstagram at doctoringthetruth.
(56:51):
Don't forget to download, rateand review so we can be sure to
bring you more content, moremore content more content next
week.
Until then, stay safe and staysuspicious.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Why did we just go slow-mo?
Speaker 1 (57:13):
Bye, you be safe and nola, okay, bye I don't know why
I do that, because, like I, I'mnowhere near figuring out how
(57:33):
to, and I got the sun in my eyesso
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