April 13, 2025 • 27 mins
Is it the beat? The instruments? The artist’s look? Or is genre just… vibes?
This week in the lab, Titi and Zakiya are joined by Cole Cuchna, host of Dissect, to explore the psychology behind why our brains create categories, how we apply this to music, and the artists who bend and break genre rules.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
I had went with a friend to a workout class.
(00:26):
It was like, it was kind of like Orange Theory,
but it wasn't Orange theory, and everybody in the class
it was basically a white woman over fifty five must
have been of the day then, I mean the day
that tracks that tracks. Yeah. And so Kendrick and Siss
a song Luther came on, you know and like it's
(00:48):
hot yeah, and I was like, oh, this is the
right vibe. Yeah, and they were like, oh my goodness.
They were acting like the song was so vulgar. They
hated it. So one of them was exactly, and so
the instructor was like, okay, let me change the song.
She hits next on her shuffle and the next song
(01:09):
is Messy by Lola Young and that's that song about
that British girls like I'm too messy and I can't
even say the word. She curses like twenty times in
the song, and so I was like, you know what,
let me look it up there are no curse words
in Luther, but that messy song, I think she curses
twenty times exactly and messy, And I was just like, so,
(01:34):
it's not really about it's not really about the words, right,
it's not, Yeah, because it's not really vulgar. And so
that makes me have a lot of questions about how
our brains are processing these different genres. Mm hmm. That
sounds like a little psychology. Genre seems to have control
(01:56):
over our minds, and we definitely need to take a
deeper look into this. Yes, let's jump into the recitation. Okay,
what do we want to know? I want to know
why we are like this is this biology or psychology? Like,
what is listening? It's not just happening where you saw it,
It's happening everywhere. It's happening. When it comes to country music,
(02:17):
it's happening. When it comes to rap, it's happening people.
I don't like pop songs, so it's giving. Everybody's got
the same thing going on, whatever it is. Yeah, And
and what are we trying to gain by boxing everybody
into these different genres? Yeah? I mean what qualifies as
hip hop or country or R and B or pop?
You know, like what determines is it the person or
(02:39):
is it certain beats or certain instruments. And that's not
even just happening in music, because you remember when the
Bear one for comedy, like for best Comedy, everybody was
up and our is not a comedy. Sorry yeah, but
and they were mad. But I'm like, I mean, maybe
it's funny to somebody, not me, but yeah, I don't
think it's funny. But I think people get really tied
(03:02):
into like the music aspect of this kind of boxing
in that's where I feel like the strongest feelings pop up.
And I also want to know if this is a
new thing or have we always been like this. M
that's a very good question. I think that's plenty for
us to figure out. Let's jump into the dissection. Let's
start with why our brains group things in categories in
(03:25):
the first place. It's actually evolutionary, that's right, come through biology.
Human brains have evolved over time to categorize objects, people,
and experiences, and that's just a fundamental cognitive process. Having
the ability to group similar things together helps us navigate
complex environments efficiently. Think of it like a mental shortcut
(03:45):
to get a response. Okay. So like if you think
back to the cavemen, they were able to categorize sounds
and things that they saw in order to figure out
if there was danger, and they were able to figure
that out really quickly. And ever since then, we've been
categor grising everything for the same reasons to create these
shortcuts in our brains. Yes, and that strategy is essential
(04:07):
for learning and memory, and it helps us easily store
and retrieve information in our brains efficiently. But putting things
in categories isn't always for survival. Like all things in
this world, some people start making categories to box people
in yep and box people out. H that's right. In
social context, categorization helps people navigate complex social environments by
(04:31):
grouping people based on shared characteristics such as age, gender,
or ethnicity. While this can help us with social dynamics
like you knowing not to cuss in front of my parents,
that's right, I love you at Vicky and Uncle Slug,
I would never that's right, it also has a potential
lead to stereotyping and prejudice and discrimination in other cases,
(04:52):
and this is what we're exploring in today's lab through
the music lens with genres today, we have our really
good friend Call, and Call is the host of the
critically acclaimed podcast Dissect. In Dissect, he takes an album
and he dissects each song line by line. He's done
to Pimp a Butterfly, Blonde, because the Internet, and most recently,
(05:12):
Mister Morale and the Big Steppers. Back in twenty twenty,
I had the honor of being dissects first ever co
host for his season on Beyonce's visual album Lemonade, and
it was an amazing experience that I will never forget.
So I'm happy to have you here on the show.
Call Finally, Yes, finally, I Ken, was I ever on
the first iteration? No? Okay, too busy for us? In
(05:34):
burna Boy videos and things like that. So let's start
with the basics. When you think of music genres, what
are the broad categories that come to your mind? And
how do you personally group music that you're listening to
or when you're exploring new music.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, I think as a musician and as someone that
is formally studying music, I think I probably think about
genre maybe a little bit differently than the common listener,
just because with music, every genre or every medium that
has genres you can categorize. You can make the categories
based on an x amount of things, right, Like, so
(06:16):
with music, it could be instruments, it could be certain rhythms,
it could be certain dialects, you know, and so there's
kind of an infinite amount of potential categorizations that could
happen within music. As much as genre is meant to simplify,
it also kind of makes things very complex, which is
kind of the the economy of a genre, right. It's
(06:40):
like it's at once very limiting but also very useful,
and so there's this complex relationship with the new music.
I think one of the interestings of things about genre
is that each genre kind of has its own history.
And so when I'm listening to, like, say a new
hip hop song, I'm wondering, Okay, what is this artist
contributing to the genre? How are they adhering to the
(07:02):
tradition so that we think about it as a hip
hop song, but also how are they breaking from genre
or adding something new to the genre, Which is the
only way It's just like language, that's the only way
it's alive, is that if new things are happening within it.
So as someone is that is kind of looking at
the history of music a lot and thinking about it
(07:24):
and where things are going, where things are being. Those
are the things I'm kind of thinking about as I'm
listening to new music.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
You kind of touched on like genres evolving and growing,
and when we think about the evolution of rock and
the rise of new genres, why do you think this
need I don't know if that's broadly by the listeners.
I don't know if this is imposed from the music
industry itself, But why do you think this need to
categorize music is so like prominent?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
You know, it's hard to talk about it without getting
into deeper questions about humanity, to be honest, because it's
such a reflection of humans tendency to simplify. And I mean,
it's just easier to think about anything if you're able
to limit it the infinite into something that is you
can you feel like you have a grasp on right.
(08:13):
And so I think it's a double edged sword in
that it's very useful to talk about genres. I think
it makes conversations easier, it makes it easier to study.
But we do get in trouble when we oversimplify and
when we use the genre or the category to keep
people confined, right, And I think that's where we get
(08:34):
into trouble with genre, is that there are certain unspoken
rules and expectations that come with it. There are certain
identities that are more prominently respected within it, and it
ends up getting tangled with in this country, the history
of this country, and a lot of the genres, the
way history has been told in this country. It just
(08:56):
gets kind of tangled up in all of that just
by the name mature of just being what humans do
right across all mediums and categories.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Right. I think it's such a great point that you're
making about humanity because I think what a lot of
people forget when they're listening to music is that the
artists are people with very complex backgrounds that they're also
bringing to the table as soon as they step up
to the mic. Yeah, Cole, you and I did a
few seasons of your show dissect on Beyonce's Lemonade Visual
(09:27):
album and also Black is King, and Beyonce is a
great example of being put into a specific genre where
it would be like more popular pop music R and B.
And now she has gotten a Grammy for a rap,
She's gotten Grammys for country music. This isn't typical. Can
you talk about artists that you've seen and kind of
(09:49):
your experience that have been able to push the bounds
of their genre.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, I think. I mean Beyonce is probably the best
modern example of someone that is actively in the moment
trying to break down barriers within genre and making a
real point about the limitations placed on her and her
being a representative of this larger thing that's happened in
this country forever, to the point where when she made
her Grammy speech about the country artists, she talked about
(10:17):
genre and specifically said how it's been used and kind
of weaponized against her and people like her and to
keep them contained. And when you study Beyonce's background, it's
not a surprise that she's making a country influenced album,
yet given her appearance or and her history in music,
(10:38):
there's just these unspoken rules and limitations placed upon her.
It's also restoring the roots that have been erased in
these genres and the contributions of black musicians to these genres,
to dance music to country, and then next everyone's predicting rock,
which makes total sense. TT in our Lemonade season, we
(10:59):
talk talked about artists like sister Rosetta Tharp and these women,
black women, black musicians that made contributions to rock music
that often get overlooked. And so I think she's doing
a beautiful job at contextualizing so much about genre in
the current moment.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Cole, you have a degree in music theory, so I
know you can take us way back. Are there any
classical musicians that broke out of their genres?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Classical musicians. It's interesting because literally named the great classical musician.
We think of your Given, you know, your Mozart, your Beethoven,
All of them are great because they broke rules, because
they expanded the limitations of a genre. You know, like
Beethoven really kind of got sh for we think of
like his famous Fifth Symphony, which literally everyone knows it's
(11:50):
like one of the most enduring pieces of music and history,
if not the most, and that specific symphony was like
got a lot of backlash because it was so avant garde.
It didn't adhere to the formality of classical music at
the time. And so that's always the challenge of someone
that is defying genre and categorization is that in the
(12:12):
moment they typically get a lot of pushback and a
lot of resistance, and yet those are the ones that
typically make history ironically, right, it is the ones that
do kind of stick to their guns, believe in their vision,
and push the genre forward, keep things evolving.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
One of our favorite people right now is Doci. She
is really doing some amazing things in hip hop. Her
sound is so unique and she's bringing something different and
exciting to the table we've been waiting for that.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Give me any excuse to talk about DOCI and I'll
take it, because she's probably the most exciting artist working
right now. To me, I think her potential more than
any other young up and coming artist, is as high
as anyone I could remember. I'm putting her in the
lane of I don't want to put too much pressure
on her, but I think she has the potential to
(13:16):
reach a Kendrick Beyonce. I feel like the skill levels there,
the work ethic is definitely there, and the innovation and
the willingness to push genre is clearly there if you
studied her career. Where As to the point now where
people there's like two dochies in that she has this
(13:36):
hip hop album that just one hip hop album of
the year. But if you look at everything she's released
before this, there has been some hip hop songs, but
it's been a lot of pop, a lot of R
and B. What it is is a straight up like
two thousand's R and B song that could have been
done by Destiny's Child, and people don't actually relate the two.
And maybe this speaks to our mentality of putting people
(13:57):
in these boxes to where we we think someone that
can make denialis is a river can't make what it is.
Yet she's doing both and articulating and expressing them at
the highest level. She is making the highest level of pop,
the highest level of hip hop, the highest level of
R and B, and you're already seeing the backlash of
(14:19):
she's overrated and we can't put her into a box,
and so it seems like there's some issues with her
becoming so popular more than anyone. I'm following her trajectory
extremely close because I think she's one of them ones
that we're going to remember for a long time, and
she's only getting started and it's very very exciting. Artists
(14:43):
like her don't come around that often. I'm very excited
to follow her next fifteen twenty years.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
You know, the things that I've been hearing about Dochi
that have been really making me angry is that people
are like, oh, she's stealing so and so style. She
sounds just like I'm like they said Nicki Mina and Dojacat.
I said, first of all, okay, we have to understand
that we're not aliens. We've all lived on this planet.
If I started rapping, I would probably sound like the Jigaman, okay,
(15:11):
because that is the music that I was pumping into
my ears. So I might, you know, have a similar cadence.
But Doji is sliding on these beats like you. That
is her. We can look back and see the day
where hip hop was started. Every artist that has come
after that has been influenced by the hip hop before them.
(15:32):
So I don't know why she's exempt from that and
why she can't be inspired and influenced like she's influenced
by so many hip hop artists, not just Nicki Minaj
and Dojacat or whoever else. I mean. You hear Busta
rhymes in her music, and see, this is just another problem.
It's just like what we talked about at the top.
You know, people don't want to expand their minds. They're saying,
(15:54):
this is what it's like to be a female rapper,
and it can only be one person. So if you're
a female rapper, you rap and you sound good, you
must be like Nicki Minaj and y'all both can't exist
in this box at the same time. It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, there's two things there. I think too. It's like
one that female categorization and genre within hip hop is
a problem, like to the point where it's like, oh,
this female talented female musician or rapper, Oh, she has
to sound like Nicki Minaj, you know, like because we
can't think of we can't think outside. And not to
(16:28):
say there's not she hasn't been influenced. She's been very
transparent about that influence. But it's like, if you're going
to call out the Nicki Minaj influence, also call out
the bust of rhymes influence, also call out the when
she's doing the breathing and calling back to nineties hip hop,
you know, that's a that's a direct citation of what
was you know, I'm forgetting the guys it was a
(16:49):
Dougie Fresh forgot I'm figuring a guy's name that made
it famous. But like that was a direct nod to
closer to the roots of hip hop. So it's like,
we have to get out of this is a perfect
example of how categories and subgenres within a genre can
really limit our experience of an artist, because yeah, it's
(17:12):
hypocritical to call out one when you're not actually seeing
the full breadth of what she's doing, which is doing
what every great musician has done before, which is assimilate
all the influences into something new. That's exactly how genres
are pushed forward, is that you have someone that understands
(17:34):
and represents and embodies the history of the genre, is
able to essentially embody let's say fifty years of hip hop,
and then that's her starting point, and so now she
can add on to it because she so clearly understands
and embodies the history, the entire breadth of the history.
(17:54):
The influences are going to be more apparent in your
earlier work. But just mark my words, listen to her,
listen to her next album or the album after that,
and I guarantee you and it's going to be so
innovative and brand new that this conversation will be mute.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Those are strong words called, right you heard it here first. Okay,
the genre bending is not new, and the genres and
categories the boxes we're using now aren't the same boxes
from before. They only exist because people way back stepped
outside of bounds. I'm curious you've kind of mentioned some
standout examples of people who are genre bending, But you
(18:35):
know now that we see more and more of this
end not just that we see it, but we see
it being commercially rewarded. I think that's a key component
of it. Do you think we'll see a shift in
the way artists show up? And if we do, how
do you think listeners are going to respond? Are we
sophisticated enough for that? Do you think? I think?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I mean, I think so. I always look to the
younger generation, you know, not to be like I mean,
I'm a millennial talking about gen Z, which is just
kind of cringe on its own, but like you look
at this, you look at the younger generation, and then
like they're much more homogenized. They I don't feel like
they categorize themselves in the same way that even our
generation did, and definitely not the like ones before us.
(19:19):
And so I do think it's kind of the job
of the youth to do exactly that is to push boundaries.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
But what about specific genres themselves? What are the differences
in Western music?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
It's all more or less kind of the same, especially
as someone that studies it. There's so many similarities within
Western music where the common Western music listener doesn't even
know or think about any other type of music than
Western music. We're so contained within the box of Western
music that we forget there's this entire other world outside
(19:52):
of it, and so we're forgetting like how similar country
is to rock, and there's a lot more commonalities within
the West during music genre then there are differences. We're
talking like minor differences to the point where the thing
that I always think is interesting about genre and the
way you can you can see the walls of genre
(20:13):
crumbled before your eyes is when a country artist covers
a hip hop song, or a or a R and
B singer covers a Beatles song.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I saw a countryman on TikTok covering Jagged Edge and
it was fire. We're gonna put that into stories on Instagram.
Go check our Instagram.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
This is just a chord, progression and melody, and they're
all using the same twelve Western notes that we use
in our Western tonal system, and the genre is just inflection.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
It feels like all this genre stuff is really only
to benefit the award system machine, like they just want
to be able to put folks in a box so
they can give out one award, Because, like you were saying,
when we're looking at the US, there's all these different
categories even though they're similar. But then as soon as
you get out of United it they're like international pop.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I'm like, it's world music, and I'm like, wow, yeah, there's.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
A lot of world to cover and they're bringing their
own experiences and influences to the table. How can we
just group them all as international? Right?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And especially when we're talking about art, which is self
expression and artists being traditionally a little bit weird, right,
Like like you just have to you just have to
accept each expression on their own terms, I think. And
that's again it brings it back to genre in that
anytime we categorize or put people in a box, it
(21:42):
ends up just really limiting our perception of what things
can be.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I don't want to get too far ahead before we
have a little bit more here about the Western tonal system.
Can you tell us more about that.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, So I mean in Western music, it's like this,
we have a twelve tone system, which is just you know,
the frequency spectrum is infinite, essentially, right, We essentially have
picked out twelve symmetrical I guess you would say tones
that we then use as are essentially our color palette
when we're creating music. However, you think about Indian music,
(22:29):
they use a lot more tones than Western tones, and
so when you to our Western ears, that's what makes
Indian music distinct is because they're working outside of our
tonal system, and so it sounds like there's all these
in between notes or like bent notes, or or it
could even sound like out of tune to us. So
when I say Western music is all essentially the same,
(22:52):
what I mean is like we're speaking the same language,
and I think we sometimes forget that. It's like there
could be different dialects within us one language, but it's
still the same language and we all are fluent in it.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I love this analogy with music and language because it
really makes you see genre for what it really is.
It's a marker for geography, a time in history, a
lived experience, a culture, a lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yes, if you listen to African drumming and they're doing
polyrhythms and way more complex rhythms than we're used to
with our Western years. It can kind of sound like
off putting or we just don't understand it, in the
same way we wouldn't know a language. We couldn't understand
a language someone was speaking if we weren't fluent. Country
music will use more acoustic guitar. There are certain chord
(23:41):
progressions that are more common within country music. There's also
like the twang of a voice or vocal delivery or inflection,
but all these are just so micro when you're thinking that,
when you really think about it, it's just these are
micro differences where it's like hip hop is distinct because
it's spoken word mostly there's melodic and there's melody and
(24:02):
rhythm to it. But hip hop is distinct because it
is so many words and there's its emphasis on rhythm
more than melody. So what's the difference between country and rock, Well,
electric guitar. Essentially one has distortion, one uses acoustic guitar.
But if you dissect the music theory behind a country
song and a rock song just on paper, what you're
(24:24):
gonna see is a chord progression and a melody on
top of it. There's literally no difference between them. They
use the same song structure, you know, verse chorus, verse chorus,
bridge chorus.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I thought Sabrina Carpenter was a country singer, not.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Dude, Okay, I think it's a Brea. Carpenter is a
great because Espresso could there's a world in which Espresso
is a country song. If you just there's a different
inflection or voice and the instrumentation was different, it could.
I think it easily could be a country song.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, please, please please, that's a country Kelly was going
country and I was like, he barely. Yeah, maybe put
on a bigger belt buckle. That was it. That was
the only difference. Still had all the diamonds. There was
no other difference. This episode gave me a lot to
(25:17):
think about. It made me think about all the ways
that I categorized things in my life that maybe just
limiting the way that I do things. So I need
to open up my mind a little bit more, like
maybe pineapple does belong on. I don't know if I'm
going that far, okay, but I do think like I
(25:38):
found myself reflecting when we were talking to cold. It
made me think about when we first started Dope Flaps.
You know, a lot of people that were in the
scientific space that knew us were like, y'all gonna do
a podcast, and they had put us in this box
of like, we are just scientists. We only do this
thing the same way that people are like, oh, you
talk about science on your podcasts, they wouldn't expect us
to talk about doci and genre. But what we're doing
(26:00):
is taking a scientific lens and so I'm hoping that
that's a new box. If people won't think outside the box,
so they'll create a new box that's the scientific lens
and put Dope Labs right in there. I love that
you can find Cole on Instagram and X at Dissect podcast.
(26:22):
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast. Ct Is on X and Instagram at dr
Underscore t Sho, and you can find Zakiya at z
said So. Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media.
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Ysara Svez. Dope Labs is sound designs, edited
(26:45):
and mixed by James Farber. Lamanada Media's Vice President of
Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart
Podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead is Alison Canter. Original
music and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura,
with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs is executive
(27:08):
produced by us T T Show Dia and Takiya Watley
I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
I had went with a friend to a workout class.
(00:26):
It was like, it was kind of like Orange Theory,
but it wasn't Orange theory, and everybody in the class
it was basically a white woman over fifty five must
have been of the day then, I mean the day
that tracks that tracks. Yeah. And so Kendrick and Siss
a song Luther came on, you know and like it's
(00:48):
hot yeah, and I was like, oh, this is the
right vibe. Yeah, and they were like, oh my goodness.
They were acting like the song was so vulgar. They
hated it. So one of them was exactly, and so
the instructor was like, okay, let me change the song.
She hits next on her shuffle and the next song
(01:09):
is Messy by Lola Young and that's that song about
that British girls like I'm too messy and I can't
even say the word. She curses like twenty times in
the song, and so I was like, you know what,
let me look it up there are no curse words
in Luther, but that messy song, I think she curses
twenty times exactly and messy, And I was just like, so,
(01:34):
it's not really about it's not really about the words, right,
it's not, Yeah, because it's not really vulgar. And so
that makes me have a lot of questions about how
our brains are processing these different genres. Mm hmm. That
sounds like a little psychology. Genre seems to have control
(01:56):
over our minds, and we definitely need to take a
deeper look into this. Yes, let's jump into the recitation. Okay,
what do we want to know? I want to know
why we are like this is this biology or psychology? Like,
what is listening? It's not just happening where you saw it,
It's happening everywhere. It's happening. When it comes to country music,
(02:17):
it's happening. When it comes to rap, it's happening people.
I don't like pop songs, so it's giving. Everybody's got
the same thing going on, whatever it is. Yeah, And
and what are we trying to gain by boxing everybody
into these different genres? Yeah? I mean what qualifies as
hip hop or country or R and B or pop?
You know, like what determines is it the person or
(02:39):
is it certain beats or certain instruments. And that's not
even just happening in music, because you remember when the
Bear one for comedy, like for best Comedy, everybody was
up and our is not a comedy. Sorry yeah, but
and they were mad. But I'm like, I mean, maybe
it's funny to somebody, not me, but yeah, I don't
think it's funny. But I think people get really tied
(03:02):
into like the music aspect of this kind of boxing
in that's where I feel like the strongest feelings pop up.
And I also want to know if this is a
new thing or have we always been like this. M
that's a very good question. I think that's plenty for
us to figure out. Let's jump into the dissection. Let's
start with why our brains group things in categories in
(03:25):
the first place. It's actually evolutionary, that's right, come through biology.
Human brains have evolved over time to categorize objects, people,
and experiences, and that's just a fundamental cognitive process. Having
the ability to group similar things together helps us navigate
complex environments efficiently. Think of it like a mental shortcut
(03:45):
to get a response. Okay. So like if you think
back to the cavemen, they were able to categorize sounds
and things that they saw in order to figure out
if there was danger, and they were able to figure
that out really quickly. And ever since then, we've been
categor grising everything for the same reasons to create these
shortcuts in our brains. Yes, and that strategy is essential
(04:07):
for learning and memory, and it helps us easily store
and retrieve information in our brains efficiently. But putting things
in categories isn't always for survival. Like all things in
this world, some people start making categories to box people
in yep and box people out. H that's right. In
social context, categorization helps people navigate complex social environments by
(04:31):
grouping people based on shared characteristics such as age, gender,
or ethnicity. While this can help us with social dynamics
like you knowing not to cuss in front of my parents,
that's right, I love you at Vicky and Uncle Slug,
I would never that's right, it also has a potential
lead to stereotyping and prejudice and discrimination in other cases,
(04:52):
and this is what we're exploring in today's lab through
the music lens with genres today, we have our really
good friend Call, and Call is the host of the
critically acclaimed podcast Dissect. In Dissect, he takes an album
and he dissects each song line by line. He's done
to Pimp a Butterfly, Blonde, because the Internet, and most recently,
(05:12):
Mister Morale and the Big Steppers. Back in twenty twenty,
I had the honor of being dissects first ever co
host for his season on Beyonce's visual album Lemonade, and
it was an amazing experience that I will never forget.
So I'm happy to have you here on the show.
Call Finally, Yes, finally, I Ken, was I ever on
the first iteration? No? Okay, too busy for us? In
(05:34):
burna Boy videos and things like that. So let's start
with the basics. When you think of music genres, what
are the broad categories that come to your mind? And
how do you personally group music that you're listening to
or when you're exploring new music.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, I think as a musician and as someone that
is formally studying music, I think I probably think about
genre maybe a little bit differently than the common listener,
just because with music, every genre or every medium that
has genres you can categorize. You can make the categories
based on an x amount of things, right, Like, so
(06:16):
with music, it could be instruments, it could be certain rhythms,
it could be certain dialects, you know, and so there's
kind of an infinite amount of potential categorizations that could
happen within music. As much as genre is meant to simplify,
it also kind of makes things very complex, which is
kind of the the economy of a genre, right. It's
(06:40):
like it's at once very limiting but also very useful,
and so there's this complex relationship with the new music.
I think one of the interestings of things about genre
is that each genre kind of has its own history.
And so when I'm listening to, like, say a new
hip hop song, I'm wondering, Okay, what is this artist
contributing to the genre? How are they adhering to the
(07:02):
tradition so that we think about it as a hip
hop song, but also how are they breaking from genre
or adding something new to the genre, Which is the
only way It's just like language, that's the only way
it's alive, is that if new things are happening within it.
So as someone is that is kind of looking at
the history of music a lot and thinking about it
(07:24):
and where things are going, where things are being. Those
are the things I'm kind of thinking about as I'm
listening to new music.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
You kind of touched on like genres evolving and growing,
and when we think about the evolution of rock and
the rise of new genres, why do you think this
need I don't know if that's broadly by the listeners.
I don't know if this is imposed from the music
industry itself, But why do you think this need to
categorize music is so like prominent?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
You know, it's hard to talk about it without getting
into deeper questions about humanity, to be honest, because it's
such a reflection of humans tendency to simplify. And I mean,
it's just easier to think about anything if you're able
to limit it the infinite into something that is you
can you feel like you have a grasp on right.
(08:13):
And so I think it's a double edged sword in
that it's very useful to talk about genres. I think
it makes conversations easier, it makes it easier to study.
But we do get in trouble when we oversimplify and
when we use the genre or the category to keep
people confined, right, And I think that's where we get
(08:34):
into trouble with genre, is that there are certain unspoken
rules and expectations that come with it. There are certain
identities that are more prominently respected within it, and it
ends up getting tangled with in this country, the history
of this country, and a lot of the genres, the
way history has been told in this country. It just
(08:56):
gets kind of tangled up in all of that just
by the name mature of just being what humans do
right across all mediums and categories.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Right. I think it's such a great point that you're
making about humanity because I think what a lot of
people forget when they're listening to music is that the
artists are people with very complex backgrounds that they're also
bringing to the table as soon as they step up
to the mic. Yeah, Cole, you and I did a
few seasons of your show dissect on Beyonce's Lemonade Visual
(09:27):
album and also Black is King, and Beyonce is a
great example of being put into a specific genre where
it would be like more popular pop music R and B.
And now she has gotten a Grammy for a rap,
She's gotten Grammys for country music. This isn't typical. Can
you talk about artists that you've seen and kind of
(09:49):
your experience that have been able to push the bounds
of their genre.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, I think. I mean Beyonce is probably the best
modern example of someone that is actively in the moment
trying to break down barriers within genre and making a
real point about the limitations placed on her and her
being a representative of this larger thing that's happened in
this country forever, to the point where when she made
her Grammy speech about the country artists, she talked about
(10:17):
genre and specifically said how it's been used and kind
of weaponized against her and people like her and to
keep them contained. And when you study Beyonce's background, it's
not a surprise that she's making a country influenced album,
yet given her appearance or and her history in music,
(10:38):
there's just these unspoken rules and limitations placed upon her.
It's also restoring the roots that have been erased in
these genres and the contributions of black musicians to these genres,
to dance music to country, and then next everyone's predicting rock,
which makes total sense. TT in our Lemonade season, we
(10:59):
talk talked about artists like sister Rosetta Tharp and these women,
black women, black musicians that made contributions to rock music
that often get overlooked. And so I think she's doing
a beautiful job at contextualizing so much about genre in
the current moment.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Cole, you have a degree in music theory, so I
know you can take us way back. Are there any
classical musicians that broke out of their genres?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Classical musicians. It's interesting because literally named the great classical musician.
We think of your Given, you know, your Mozart, your Beethoven,
All of them are great because they broke rules, because
they expanded the limitations of a genre. You know, like
Beethoven really kind of got sh for we think of
like his famous Fifth Symphony, which literally everyone knows it's
(11:50):
like one of the most enduring pieces of music and history,
if not the most, and that specific symphony was like
got a lot of backlash because it was so avant garde.
It didn't adhere to the formality of classical music at
the time. And so that's always the challenge of someone
that is defying genre and categorization is that in the
(12:12):
moment they typically get a lot of pushback and a
lot of resistance, and yet those are the ones that
typically make history ironically, right, it is the ones that
do kind of stick to their guns, believe in their vision,
and push the genre forward, keep things evolving.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
One of our favorite people right now is Doci. She
is really doing some amazing things in hip hop. Her
sound is so unique and she's bringing something different and
exciting to the table we've been waiting for that.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Give me any excuse to talk about DOCI and I'll
take it, because she's probably the most exciting artist working
right now. To me, I think her potential more than
any other young up and coming artist, is as high
as anyone I could remember. I'm putting her in the
lane of I don't want to put too much pressure
on her, but I think she has the potential to
(13:16):
reach a Kendrick Beyonce. I feel like the skill levels there,
the work ethic is definitely there, and the innovation and
the willingness to push genre is clearly there if you
studied her career. Where As to the point now where
people there's like two dochies in that she has this
(13:36):
hip hop album that just one hip hop album of
the year. But if you look at everything she's released
before this, there has been some hip hop songs, but
it's been a lot of pop, a lot of R
and B. What it is is a straight up like
two thousand's R and B song that could have been
done by Destiny's Child, and people don't actually relate the two.
And maybe this speaks to our mentality of putting people
(13:57):
in these boxes to where we we think someone that
can make denialis is a river can't make what it is.
Yet she's doing both and articulating and expressing them at
the highest level. She is making the highest level of pop,
the highest level of hip hop, the highest level of
R and B, and you're already seeing the backlash of
(14:19):
she's overrated and we can't put her into a box,
and so it seems like there's some issues with her
becoming so popular more than anyone. I'm following her trajectory
extremely close because I think she's one of them ones
that we're going to remember for a long time, and
she's only getting started and it's very very exciting. Artists
(14:43):
like her don't come around that often. I'm very excited
to follow her next fifteen twenty years.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
You know, the things that I've been hearing about Dochi
that have been really making me angry is that people
are like, oh, she's stealing so and so style. She
sounds just like I'm like they said Nicki Mina and Dojacat.
I said, first of all, okay, we have to understand
that we're not aliens. We've all lived on this planet.
If I started rapping, I would probably sound like the Jigaman, okay,
(15:11):
because that is the music that I was pumping into
my ears. So I might, you know, have a similar cadence.
But Doji is sliding on these beats like you. That
is her. We can look back and see the day
where hip hop was started. Every artist that has come
after that has been influenced by the hip hop before them.
(15:32):
So I don't know why she's exempt from that and
why she can't be inspired and influenced like she's influenced
by so many hip hop artists, not just Nicki Minaj
and Dojacat or whoever else. I mean. You hear Busta
rhymes in her music, and see, this is just another problem.
It's just like what we talked about at the top.
You know, people don't want to expand their minds. They're saying,
(15:54):
this is what it's like to be a female rapper,
and it can only be one person. So if you're
a female rapper, you rap and you sound good, you
must be like Nicki Minaj and y'all both can't exist
in this box at the same time. It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, there's two things there. I think too. It's like
one that female categorization and genre within hip hop is
a problem, like to the point where it's like, oh,
this female talented female musician or rapper, Oh, she has
to sound like Nicki Minaj, you know, like because we
can't think of we can't think outside. And not to
(16:28):
say there's not she hasn't been influenced. She's been very
transparent about that influence. But it's like, if you're going
to call out the Nicki Minaj influence, also call out
the bust of rhymes influence, also call out the when
she's doing the breathing and calling back to nineties hip hop,
you know, that's a that's a direct citation of what
was you know, I'm forgetting the guys it was a
(16:49):
Dougie Fresh forgot I'm figuring a guy's name that made
it famous. But like that was a direct nod to
closer to the roots of hip hop. So it's like,
we have to get out of this is a perfect
example of how categories and subgenres within a genre can
really limit our experience of an artist, because yeah, it's
(17:12):
hypocritical to call out one when you're not actually seeing
the full breadth of what she's doing, which is doing
what every great musician has done before, which is assimilate
all the influences into something new. That's exactly how genres
are pushed forward, is that you have someone that understands
(17:34):
and represents and embodies the history of the genre, is
able to essentially embody let's say fifty years of hip hop,
and then that's her starting point, and so now she
can add on to it because she so clearly understands
and embodies the history, the entire breadth of the history.
(17:54):
The influences are going to be more apparent in your
earlier work. But just mark my words, listen to her,
listen to her next album or the album after that,
and I guarantee you and it's going to be so
innovative and brand new that this conversation will be mute.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Those are strong words called, right you heard it here first. Okay,
the genre bending is not new, and the genres and
categories the boxes we're using now aren't the same boxes
from before. They only exist because people way back stepped
outside of bounds. I'm curious you've kind of mentioned some
standout examples of people who are genre bending, But you
(18:35):
know now that we see more and more of this
end not just that we see it, but we see
it being commercially rewarded. I think that's a key component
of it. Do you think we'll see a shift in
the way artists show up? And if we do, how
do you think listeners are going to respond? Are we
sophisticated enough for that? Do you think? I think?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I mean, I think so. I always look to the
younger generation, you know, not to be like I mean,
I'm a millennial talking about gen Z, which is just
kind of cringe on its own, but like you look
at this, you look at the younger generation, and then
like they're much more homogenized. They I don't feel like
they categorize themselves in the same way that even our
generation did, and definitely not the like ones before us.
(19:19):
And so I do think it's kind of the job
of the youth to do exactly that is to push boundaries.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
But what about specific genres themselves? What are the differences
in Western music?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
It's all more or less kind of the same, especially
as someone that studies it. There's so many similarities within
Western music where the common Western music listener doesn't even
know or think about any other type of music than
Western music. We're so contained within the box of Western
music that we forget there's this entire other world outside
(19:52):
of it, and so we're forgetting like how similar country
is to rock, and there's a lot more commonalities within
the West during music genre then there are differences. We're
talking like minor differences to the point where the thing
that I always think is interesting about genre and the
way you can you can see the walls of genre
(20:13):
crumbled before your eyes is when a country artist covers
a hip hop song, or a or a R and
B singer covers a Beatles song.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I saw a countryman on TikTok covering Jagged Edge and
it was fire. We're gonna put that into stories on Instagram.
Go check our Instagram.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
This is just a chord, progression and melody, and they're
all using the same twelve Western notes that we use
in our Western tonal system, and the genre is just inflection.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
It feels like all this genre stuff is really only
to benefit the award system machine, like they just want
to be able to put folks in a box so
they can give out one award, Because, like you were saying,
when we're looking at the US, there's all these different
categories even though they're similar. But then as soon as
you get out of United it they're like international pop.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I'm like, it's world music, and I'm like, wow, yeah, there's.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
A lot of world to cover and they're bringing their
own experiences and influences to the table. How can we
just group them all as international? Right?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
And especially when we're talking about art, which is self
expression and artists being traditionally a little bit weird, right,
Like like you just have to you just have to
accept each expression on their own terms, I think. And
that's again it brings it back to genre in that
anytime we categorize or put people in a box, it
(21:42):
ends up just really limiting our perception of what things
can be.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I don't want to get too far ahead before we
have a little bit more here about the Western tonal system.
Can you tell us more about that.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, So I mean in Western music, it's like this,
we have a twelve tone system, which is just you know,
the frequency spectrum is infinite, essentially, right, We essentially have
picked out twelve symmetrical I guess you would say tones
that we then use as are essentially our color palette
when we're creating music. However, you think about Indian music,
(22:29):
they use a lot more tones than Western tones, and
so when you to our Western ears, that's what makes
Indian music distinct is because they're working outside of our
tonal system, and so it sounds like there's all these
in between notes or like bent notes, or or it
could even sound like out of tune to us. So
when I say Western music is all essentially the same,
(22:52):
what I mean is like we're speaking the same language,
and I think we sometimes forget that. It's like there
could be different dialects within us one language, but it's
still the same language and we all are fluent in it.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I love this analogy with music and language because it
really makes you see genre for what it really is.
It's a marker for geography, a time in history, a
lived experience, a culture, a lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yes, if you listen to African drumming and they're doing
polyrhythms and way more complex rhythms than we're used to
with our Western years. It can kind of sound like
off putting or we just don't understand it, in the
same way we wouldn't know a language. We couldn't understand
a language someone was speaking if we weren't fluent. Country
music will use more acoustic guitar. There are certain chord
(23:41):
progressions that are more common within country music. There's also
like the twang of a voice or vocal delivery or inflection,
but all these are just so micro when you're thinking that,
when you really think about it, it's just these are
micro differences where it's like hip hop is distinct because
it's spoken word mostly there's melodic and there's melody and
(24:02):
rhythm to it. But hip hop is distinct because it
is so many words and there's its emphasis on rhythm
more than melody. So what's the difference between country and rock, Well,
electric guitar. Essentially one has distortion, one uses acoustic guitar.
But if you dissect the music theory behind a country
song and a rock song just on paper, what you're
(24:24):
gonna see is a chord progression and a melody on
top of it. There's literally no difference between them. They
use the same song structure, you know, verse chorus, verse chorus,
bridge chorus.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I thought Sabrina Carpenter was a country singer, not.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Dude, Okay, I think it's a Brea. Carpenter is a
great because Espresso could there's a world in which Espresso
is a country song. If you just there's a different
inflection or voice and the instrumentation was different, it could.
I think it easily could be a country song.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, please, please please, that's a country Kelly was going
country and I was like, he barely. Yeah, maybe put
on a bigger belt buckle. That was it. That was
the only difference. Still had all the diamonds. There was
no other difference. This episode gave me a lot to
(25:17):
think about. It made me think about all the ways
that I categorized things in my life that maybe just
limiting the way that I do things. So I need
to open up my mind a little bit more, like
maybe pineapple does belong on. I don't know if I'm
going that far, okay, but I do think like I
(25:38):
found myself reflecting when we were talking to cold. It
made me think about when we first started Dope Flaps.
You know, a lot of people that were in the
scientific space that knew us were like, y'all gonna do
a podcast, and they had put us in this box
of like, we are just scientists. We only do this
thing the same way that people are like, oh, you
talk about science on your podcasts, they wouldn't expect us
to talk about doci and genre. But what we're doing
(26:00):
is taking a scientific lens and so I'm hoping that
that's a new box. If people won't think outside the box,
so they'll create a new box that's the scientific lens
and put Dope Labs right in there. I love that
you can find Cole on Instagram and X at Dissect podcast.
(26:22):
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast. Ct Is on X and Instagram at dr
Underscore t Sho, and you can find Zakiya at z
said So. Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media.
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Ysara Svez. Dope Labs is sound designs, edited
(26:45):
and mixed by James Farber. Lamanada Media's Vice President of
Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart
Podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead is Alison Canter. Original
music and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura,
with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs is executive
(27:08):
produced by us T T Show Dia and Takiya Watley
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