From Darkness to Divine Calling: Pastor Mark Mills' Testimony of Faith and Recovery

Pastor Mark Mills, from Glory To Glory Christina Fellowship, shares the raw recount of his descent into the throes of addiction—a stark contrast to his upbringing in a devout Christian home. His journey from the depths of substance abuse to a profound encounter with Christ is a testament to the power of redemption and the grace of God. Join us for an intimate conversation with the pastor of Glory to Glory Christian Fellowship, where we delve into the complexities of parenting through a child's crisis, the role of tough love, and the importance of hitting rock bottom for true transformation.

The fabric of this episode is woven with stories of grace and the significance of mentorship. You'll hear how the steadfast prayers of a parent and the guidance of key figures influenced my path to ordination and ministry. We celebrate the organic growth of a home Bible study into a church, emphasizing the significance of personal calling and the mentorship that drives ministry. Pastor Mark's closing prayer encapsulates our shared experiences, invoking blessings and reinforcing the impact of personal faith narratives on our communities.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
You're tuned in to Friends and Family, a God's Way
radio exclusive where weintroduce you to some amazing
people.
In John 15, verse 15, jesussays I have called you friends
for all things that I heard frommy Father I have made known to
you.
That's our aim that God wouldbe made known to you.
Stay with us until the end ofour conversation for more

(00:22):
information on this program andother unique offerings from
God's Way radio.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well, God's Way radio family.
I have a very special guesthere with me today and if you
listen pretty frequently, youmight get the impression, or you
might realize, that a lot ofthe guests that we have here
I've met them before, I've heardtheir teaching or we've served

(00:49):
together.
But every once in a while I getto sit down with somebody I
don't know much about and it'sas exciting for me as it is for
you guys, and today is one suchday.
I have Pastor Mark Mills herein the studio.
Thank you for coming, sir.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Oh, it's a pleasure.
It's a pleasure, it's good tobe here.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
And just getting to learn a little bit about Pastor
Mark.
The name of the church is Gloryto Glory, christian Fellowship.
Yes, it is.
Oh, I got it right.
All right, and it is in Greece,new York, which is near.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
So Greece is a suburb of Rochester.
We're probably five minutesoutside of the city of Rochester
.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Awesome, so big shout out to.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Pastor Jeff.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Breed, pastor Rob Kellogg, and even in the area I
mean all the way back to PastorBill the awesome, awesome family
of churches up there in the NewYork state area.
But you didn't always live inthe Rochester area.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
No, I didn't.
I grew up in North Jersey, in alittle town called Belleville,
which is a suburb of North NewJersey, about 20 minutes from
Manhattan.
Really busy place.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, it was my youth .

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Truly busy, or you're bringing sarcastic.
Oh, very busy, oh okay.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah, it's a.
North Jersey is extremelydensely populated, oh wow, and
so it's very fast paced life,very, very busy life, kind of
there.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, okay, see, I don't know.
I'm learning so much.
So North Jersey.
So, pastor Mark, one of thefirst things I always ask people
when I get to sit down withthem in the studio is how'd you
come to know the Lord Jesus?

Speaker 3 (02:23):
So how I came to know the Lord.
I will give you the.
We have time.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
We have time.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Well, a bit of a condensed version.
Let's do that because it is abit of a long story, but it is.
You know, I often think when Ithink of my testimony, I think
of I can't remember the name ofthe song writer, but in the
refrain of the song he says totell you my story is to tell of
him, because that's what Ialways think of when I share my

(02:53):
testimony is it's about him.
It's about telling the story ofGod's grace in Christ.
So so I grew up in what was aChristian home.
My dad got saved when I wasabout eight.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
My mom.
You know I never really knewand I never asked her she lives
with us now whether my mom gotsaved at that time or whether
she actually had been saved.
You know she took us to churchonce in a while.
But when my dad got savedeverything changed in our home.
My parents came very committedChristians.

(03:27):
To this day.
My wife and I try to emulatewhat they did they.
Every day, 365 days a year, myparents after dinner would go in
their room, turn off the light30 minutes of prayer, turn on
the light 30 minute Bible study.
They did that 365 days a yearfor a good four decades till my

(03:50):
dad passed.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
And just the two of them.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
Just kids were playing or sleeping or well my
brother and I were not saved and, you know, particularly as we
got to our teen years, wewouldn't be home much.
So but with that being said, myparents being strong Christians
, my, that part of New Jersey isa very it's very active in a

(04:12):
bad sense very active area.
You know, being so close toNewark, so close to New York
City, a lot of drugs.
So by the time I was 11, I wasdrinking and smoking marijuana
by 11, by 14, doing pills by 17,cocaine and all those kind of

(04:33):
things.
And, mind you, you know I saythat I was able to manage that
for a long time.
I got good grades in school,got into college, I was an
athlete, but probably around 18,19 years old it really began to
take hold of my life.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
So, so, just kind of chime in in there.
I guess the term wouldn't belike functioning addict or
something like that as a youngteen.
And was this like every day, orwas just you would go out on
the weekends and party, or whatI mean?
It's hard to comprehend thatyou were able to have the grades
and the sports.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
Well, you know, through my high school years it
probably wasn't every day, butit was close to it.
I mean, you know, there were alot of drugs in our school, so
we would be in school on drugsthere was.
It was just a lot of is veryavailable in that community and
yeah, and it was very consistent.
But by the time I was 18, 19,it was every day and that

(05:36):
degenerated into heroinaddiction.
So by my early twenties, byprobably about 20, I was a
heroin addict.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
And around what year was this?
I'm sorry, if people do themath, they're going to know your
age.
Yeah, no, that's fine.

Speaker 3 (05:49):
So that would have been around 1987.
87.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
And the reason I asked is because this was, or
this is more of a question now.
This was a big problem acrossthe country at this point,
wasn't it in the 80s?
Or was it a dependent or I?

Speaker 3 (06:06):
mean looking back.
It certainly was in the NewYork, new Jersey area.
New York City was in a bad spotat that time.
It was around when the crackepidemic and all that.
So there was a really bad timein that area at least I couldn't
speak for the whole country,but certainly was there.

(06:28):
You know there was a.
There was a turning point in mylife that so you know I was a
heroin addict, but I didn't.
I had never used a needle in mylife.
And I had a girlfriend who sheused to say to me the day you
stick a needle in your arm bethe last day I talk to you.
And I loved her.

(06:48):
I did.
I was unsaved, she was unsaved,but we had a conversation one
night and I won't go into allthe details, but she had gotten
married and we were stillinvolved, and she came to my
house 430 in the morning.
I was walking home from a barand she was sitting in her car.

(07:11):
She came to tell me that herhusband had tested positive for
HIV and she said she had testednegative.
But they told her just a matterof time she would be positive.
And so she was saying to me,because we were still involved,
she said you need to be tested.
She was a little older than Iwas, I was probably 21 at the

(07:33):
time, she was 35.
And and I, you know, I just Ididn't handle it well.
I kind of zoned out and didn'tsay much.
And she kept saying to me youknow you're mad at me.
And I would tell her no, I'mnot mad at you.
And at one point in theconversation she said if you
weren't mad at me you would haveheld me.
And I didn't.

(07:55):
I just I told her, I justdidn't know what to think, what
to do, and I'll never forgetthis.
I can still see thisconversation now.
She looked me in the eye and shesaid Mark, I'd rather be dead
than know that I've hurt you.
And she got in her car and left.
There's about five, five, 15 inthe morning.
She lived about 20 minutes away.
I just went in the house.
I actually went in the houseand did more heroin.

(08:17):
Got home the next day aroundfive o'clock in the evening, got
a phone call from a friend thatworked with her and she was
very blunt, very to the point.
She just said Mark Connie'sdead.
She had she.
The last thing she said was I'drather be dead than know that
I've hurt you.
And she got in her car, shedrove home and she killed

(08:40):
herself.
And that was the first day Istuck a needle in my arm.
And the downward trajectory atthat point it was steady for
years, but it became rapid.
My decline came incrediblyrapid.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
Did you consider killing yourself?

Speaker 3 (09:02):
I never considered that, you know, at least not.
I never considered it actively,like I never, never thought
about that.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
You work, in essence, killing yourself by doing what
you're doing.
But as far as hey, this day,this time, I want to know.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
I never did plan to do that, but there was a period
of time.
So a few years later I had justgotten out of jail and I think
at that point I had reached sucha bottom that again, I wasn't
trying to kill myself, I wasn'tthinking that way, but I think

(09:38):
all hope was gone.
So I didn't much care.
I got out of jail in May I'msorry, march and within two
months to the day, literally, Ichecked into a detox.
I had lost 40 pounds in twomonths just in drug addiction.

(09:58):
I was literally wasting away.
But right before I went intothis detox, my landlord she had
known me since I was probably 13years old.
I was walking into the frontdoor of the house and she just
said Mark, if I gave you thenumber to a Christian program,
would you go?
And to this day I think I wasjust trying to avoid the

(10:19):
conversation.
So I said, sure, I went in myhouse and she lived upstairs.
Maybe 10 minutes later she camedown with this little piece of
paper with a phone number.
So I'm in New Jersey, this isto Rochester Teen Challenge.
So I took it, I stuck it in mypocket.
I was on parole at the time andI knew that I was.
I was gonna end up going backto jail at some point.

(10:41):
So I checked into a detox inEast Orange, new Jersey, for a
week and at the end of that weekthey were.
They wanted us to get involvedin one of their programs, you
know, an outpatient secularprogram, and I had been thinking
about it and thinking about itand I didn't know why.
Again, I was not a Christian.
But when they called me in theroom at the end of the week they

(11:05):
wanted me to sign up for one ofthese programs and I said you
know, I have this number to aChristian program in Rochester.
I said I think I'm gonna trythat and they tried to.
They discouraged it, they feltit was running away from the
problem and I said, well, yeah,you know, maybe, maybe it is,
maybe I'm running away, but I'mgonna give it a try.

(11:25):
So about two weeks later I tooka train up to Rochester, new
York, checked in the teenchallenge again unsaved, and had
heard the gospel since I waseight, but it never resonated
with me in a way that I wouldbow my knee to that truth.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
What's your relationship like with your
parents at this point in yourlife?

Speaker 3 (11:50):
So my parents now my dad has since passed, but I will
say this looking back, myparents were absolutely amazing.
They, I mean, they knew where Iwas at, I'd go to jail and
they'd come visit me.
They never, they neverabandoned me.
They never gave up.

(12:10):
They I don't know how they didit, but they remained faithful
all those years.
They, you know, they would pray, you know, in those prayer
meetings every day.
My dad told me years later thatbecause my brother was doing
the same thing I was, he wasthree years older, but they said
every night we just prayed foryou and it took 15 years of

(12:35):
their praying before I got saved, 15 years of laboring you know
in prayer.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
I'm guessing that they really navigated that line
between never abandoning you butnot supporting you or enabling
you.
Can you talk to that a littlebit?
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (12:54):
they did.
They never contributed to whatwe did.
If I were, say, for instance,to ask for money, I'd never get
it.
There was no way they weregiving me money.
But at the same time, wheneverI needed a roof over my head,
they gave it to me.
You know, there were timeswhere I just, you know, I was at

(13:17):
the end of my rope and I neededa place to stay, and actually I
didn't even have to ask.
They never took my keys away.
I could just come home and Ihad a place to stay, there was
food to eat.
So they would always make surethey were there for me in that
way to take care of my needs, inthat way, place to stay if I
needed it.
But they would never contributeto my behavior, never give me

(13:44):
money, no, those kind of thingsbut always supportive.
When I went to jail, they werethere every weekend to visit me,
and you know.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Can you speak directly to parents listening in
the same situation?
Because we know it's not acookie cutter one size fits all
right If someone's listening,excuse me right now.
And they're thinking okay, aslong as I give, as long as I
don't take their keys, don'tgive them money, visit them in
jail, then they'll become apastor.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
And I don't mean to make fun of anyone- listening.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
I really wanted to give you an opportunity to speak
to their heart.
How would a parent navigatethat situation?

Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, that is difficult.
The way my parents handled itis the way they handled it and I
would not tell someone else,well, you need to do it this way
.
This is what my parents did forme.
You know, I've always felt.
You know there are times whereyou know you look at the Lord.
As a matter of fact, the textI'm gonna be sharing from with

(14:44):
the men this weekend is in Hosea, and part of the Lord's
strategy to bring aboutrepentance with Hosea was taking
everything away, right, and inIsrael he's saying I'm gonna
take away your grain and I'mgonna take away your oil and I'm
gonna take away your wine.
He was gonna bring them torepentance through difficulty,

(15:06):
and my wife and I have oftenthought about our own children
and how we raise them and youknow, what would we do in those
kinds of circumstances?
And sometimes it is the realityof letting people feel the pain
of their decisions thatactually brings them to

(15:28):
repentance.
That God uses, and I think youknow, other than putting a roof
over my head, you know I had tofeel the pain of my decisions.
You know there was jail time andthere was all of those things,
and so I would encourage parentsand it's a difficult thing and
I will say it's not only adifficult thing, it's a very
difficult thing for a mother toallow her children to go through

(15:52):
hardship and not try to make itbetter.
But in my life, you know, evenwith their help, I came to a
point where I was reduced tonothing.
I still remember when I showedup in Rochester 25 years old.
I was a college dropout andeverything I owned in the entire

(16:18):
world fit in one suitcase.
My life had been reduced tonothing and it took that.
It ultimately took that tobring me to repentance and to
bring me to Christ.
So the balance I think parentshave to navigate is not getting

(16:39):
in God's way, not trying to makeit better.
There may be things you need todo to help your child survive,
but Bye.
But being able to take yourhands off and not try to make
things better for them, but letthe pain of their consequences
run its course.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
That's so well said, pastor Mark.
Not get in God's way.
You know, and and in just aministry.
You know I have the privilegeof being an assistant pastor
here with pastor Zach and youknow you never tell a parent
want to do and anything likethat.
But but even talking about whata parent might do, you know hey
you know you have this adultchild.
You might need to let them know.

(17:21):
Hey, you know you can't do thisin the home you need to leave
the home and they automaticallygo to other, gonna be homeless
and die.
You know, and, and, and youfound For the most part right,
you said sometimes you'd have tocome home, but for the most
part you found a way to pay rent.
Sure, survive.
You know what I'm saying, and,and and I think especially in,

(17:44):
in, in middle-class families,where families with a little bit
more money or resources, it'slike man there, the kid is just
so comfortable you know theyhave everything they need.
They're so comfortable.
Parents, without knowing it,sometimes might be Paying for
things without even knowing it.
You're paying their gas, you'repaying their car, you're paying
everything and and, and you aregiving them money In a sense.

(18:04):
Right, so it's, it's.
It's a scary thing.
My kids are tiny, they're alllittle so so I think about it
sometimes too, and I understand,I've never been there before
yet.
But, um, but, as you said,right, letting them feel some of
it.
Man, lord, lord, speak to theseparents.

(18:26):
But, pastor Mark, we left offin your story at Teen Challenge.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yes, so.
So I arrived at Teen ChallengeSeptember 14th 1992.
Now, for me, my parents alwayswent to a very Bible teaching,
strong Bible teaching churches.
So when I did go to church,what I was used to was, you know

(18:52):
, verse by verse, teaching theBible and those kind of things,
you know.
Again, it wasn't a Christian,although I will loop back to
that thought in a moment.
But when I got to TeenChallenge it was a bit different
.
I don't know how all of theTeen Challenges are now, but at
the time they were verycharismatic To the point where.
So I showed up that day and youknow I'm in upstate New York

(19:14):
now, but a lot of the guys inthe house are from Brooklyn and
you know these are kind of guysI would have been hanging out
with on the street, you know.
So I felt comfortable in thatsense.
But I'll never forget the firstnight I'm there they had chapel
and During the worship timethese guys are all just yelling

(19:35):
out in tongues Wow, and I hadnever heard that.
You know, I had never heardanything like that.
So I'm standing in this circle,I kid you not, I'm thinking to
myself, I'm looking around atthese guys, I'm thinking I was
just talking to these guys.
They were just, you know,normal guys.
What are they doing?
What are these noises?
I didn't even know what tongueswas.
I never heard it.
So my, my immediate thought wasI, I said they must be drugging

(19:59):
the food To get them to do this, you know.
And so I'm in my mind, I'mcalculating, you know.
Okay, I won't eat a lot, youknow, I just have to stay three
weeks, parole, I'll be over,I'll go back to New Jersey.
But the Lord, the Lord, wasgracious, got me through that
part of it and I'll never forgettwo weeks.
I got there September 14th.

(20:20):
Two weeks later, september 28th1992, there was a gentleman.
His name was brother Kurt KurtSiebert.
He was to come in on two.
It was a Monday or Tuesday.
He would come in and do chapelin the evening and to be honest,
I don't remember what text heshared, but I remember that
after he finished he asked usall just to stand and hold hands

(20:43):
and he said just pray quietlyto yourself.
He said then I'll close us outin prayer and the way I describe
it.
To this day I never prayed asinner's prayer.
Nobody led me in a prayer, butthe only word I could use to
describe that day is the wordsurrender.
It was as though, just holdinghands with those guys, my eyes

(21:05):
closed, my head was bowed, IJust knew the battle was over.
I knew it was over and I and Iknew that the Lord had won and I
, just, I just surrendered tohim and and I got saved that day
and my life Was never the same.
Ended up, you know, and this isthe grace of God, that was

(21:26):
September.
I had a girlfriend back in NewJersey at the time that I had
told I'd be back for, and Overtime they, you know, counsel me
that that wasn't the wisestdecision to make, and so I
Contacted her and broke off thatrelationship.
So on, at Christmas, what theydo with the staff so the staff
could go home, they send the menhome with Church families, to

(21:51):
men, to a family in the area.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
So in the area, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
So myself and another guy went to this family.
The singers that lived in thecity of Rochester and the wife
Vanessa had a cousin namedTeresa who lived around the
corner.
I see where this is.
So, yes, so Christmas Eve shecame over, had dinner and Met
her.
She was a single mom at thetime and Three wonderful kids,

(22:19):
and so met her on Christmas Eve.
Christmas day she cooked dinner.
We went around the corner toher house and she cooked dinner
for us and you thought this isgood yeah you know I was trying
to behave, trying to do theright thing, but we just started
writing each other letters.
She wrote a letter to encourageme that she thought God was
doing something in my life andso I had to leave to go to

(22:40):
Pennsylvania for eight monthsOkay, to finish up teen
challenge and we just wouldwrite each other letters.
And he got to the point whereevery day I'd write her a letter
, every day I'd receive a letter, got back to Rochester to work
at teen challenge and Within acouple of months I put a ring on
her finger.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Amazing, oh man, so much I want to ask you about
okay, so so you get saved,wasn't one day to the next, I
mean the next day.
You are totally differentperson, I mean so.
So my part of my testimony isis Is drugs as well?
I, when I got saved, it wasgone immediately.
I never had the desire again todo any drugs, to drink it for

(23:23):
me, everyone's different.
What was your experience likein that room?

Speaker 3 (23:27):
mine is the same as yours, though.
So I often because you know,sometimes people can get
discouraged when they hear yousay that, because they're still
battling with things, and what Isay to them is look, god knows
what we need.
Yeah and God knew I needed tobe delivered yes, from drugs.
I couldn't.
I had, I couldn't go on justfighting a battle.

(23:48):
I needed to be the, and he did.
Yeah, he took away the desire.
He just he took all of thataway.
But I do remind people wedidn't take everything away.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yes, that's what I was about to say.
Yeah, they each have our battle, sure, yeah?

Speaker 3 (24:02):
Yeah, there's battles that had to still be fought.
Their battles they're stillbeing fought.
Yeah and they go on for alifetime.
But yeah, by his grace he tookthat away.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Amen and anything else from that time in the first
if you want to call it stint inRochester in, you know, when
you got saved there in Teenchallenge.
Anything else come to mind,like I'm thinking did did any of
the I don't know what you wouldcall them the staff?
Did they mention anything toyou?
Was there any conversations?

(24:32):
Any of the guys you were withanything come to mind?
I just wondered if anybody hadone of those moments where they
go there's something happeningwith you.
What happened?
I don't know anything like thatcomes to mind.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
What the one?
There were two people inparticular.
One of them was my roommate,who was a gentleman named paul
duncan.
Okay, and so I was 25, paul was45 and they roomed me with him
and he was probably the firstPerson in that realm and I and I
will say long term, my dad wasthe greatest influence on me as

(25:01):
a christian, but paul was, youknow, he was from brooklyn and
he's a real gruff.
He was, he was a sanitationworker in brooklyn and but
watching him and he would, hetook me under his wing and he
would.
He treated me like a father andwould you know, no, you can't
do this.
And and you know, you need towrite her a letter and tell her
you're not gonna, you're notcoming back for her.

(25:22):
And you know he was very and.
But the one thing about paulthat struck me Was, you know, 45
year old guy.
We were rooming together.
Every night, in the middle ofthe night, he had to get up to
go to the bathroom.
He would never get back in hisbed until he knelt beside it to
pray.
I watched him do that everynight that he'd come back in the

(25:44):
room and he'd kneel down by hisbed and he would pray and I
thought there's something he was.
He was the strongest guy in thehouse In terms of his faith and
I thought there's somethingthere I need to be Paying
attention to that he is mindfulof god, you know made a great
impression on me and, at thetime, the assistant director.

(26:06):
Um, the reason I wound up inRochester was when my landlord
gave me that number.
Her brother had been a heroinaddict and she told me a year
later when I came back to visitthat I looked like her brother
did two weeks before he died andthat's what moved her to to
give me the number.
Her brother had a best friendwho got saved and he was now the

(26:29):
assistant director in Rochester.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
No, that's how I wound up there.
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
So his name was Ron Williams.
Now he had Contracted aidesbefore he got saved.
So he has since gone home to bewith the lord.
But he would take me aside.
You know, he knew, he knew herand knew the relationship there
and he would spend a lot ofone-on-one time with me, just uh
, discipling me in the faith.

(26:55):
And those two men in thoseearly days, boy, they were
invaluable to me In in rootingme in the faith you know what
comes to mind.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
I gotta believe and I pass them out.
I could be way off base here.
Don't, don't, don't be shy toto take us back on course.
Truly, I mean I gotta believe.
It was so much, not only, butso much of your parents prayer.
I mean I'm listening to yourstory and I'm just getting this
picture of gods in heaven goingwhy I gotta move this over here.
I gotta, I gotta move, I gottamove things miraculously because

(27:27):
I'm gonna answer these prayers.
I mean the brother and thelandlord and the director.
I mean it's like god bringingeverything together.
I mean it sounds like you agree.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Absolutely To this day I I will tell you my parents
prayers and today to instill mymother's prayers I believe are
absolutely significant in who Iam and where I am.
I'll tell you this just a fastforward, and then we can back up
sure.
I was ordained in 2000.

(27:56):
Okay, pastor Jeff breedordained me, um, and I served
there in the church as anassistant pastor until 2005 when
we officially started.
Glory to glory.
But after my dad passed away.
He never told me this, but mymother shared with me that when

(28:18):
I was still a heroin addictunsaved heroin addict my father
used to tell her he's gonna be apastor one day.
I don't know had to be the Lordtalking to him because there
was nothing in my life thatwould indicate that I would ever
be a pastor, a Christian livinglike that.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
Your dad wasn't a pastor.
He was a believer, a strongbeliever.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
He was a strong believer, you know.
He taught in his church.
He would do adult Sunday school, you know, again with my dad,
my mom said to me once actuallyshe said this in a prayer
meeting that we were getting aprayer meeting.
We were at the start of it andwe were just talking and she
shared this with the folks thatwere in the prayer meeting.
She said that for years she hadlooked at from the time I was

(29:05):
ordained this was after my dadhad passed and she had moved up
to Rochester and was living withus.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Was your dad alive to see you ordained?
He was.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
He was there at the ordination.
He never got to come to thechurch.
Okay, he was alive when westarted but he had gotten sick
and wasn't able to come.
But he knew we had started thechurch and we would.
Back then it was cassettes.
We'd send down cassettes andhe'd listen to me preach.
But my mother was sharing withthis group of people.

(29:37):
She said that when she wouldthink of me and my dad she
always thought of in a good way,I hope here David and Solomon.
She said because David had aheart to build the temple, but
the Lord said that's not for youto do, I'll give that to your
son.
And she used to say my husbandhad a heart to be a pastor, but

(29:59):
the Lord said that's not for youto do, I'm gonna give that to
your son.
And so that's always remainedwith me that my dad was a pastor
at heart but God just nevercalled him to it.
But he called his son and hegot to see that.
You know so Amazing.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
It's a grace of God, it's amazing, amazing.
I think whoever's listening.
If you're listening right now,I don't know we're in a
competition.
I'm being more blessed than you, and normally I don't even do
this during the recordedinterviews.
We have a lot of liveprogramming here on God's Way
Radio.
This will end up on the podcast.
First on our podcast and thenwe might air it.

(30:41):
So I don't normally give out thephone number, but I just have
it on my heart right now thatmaybe somebody might wanna call,
maybe they might wanna get incontact with you, maybe they
might need some help or somedirection.
So I'm gonna give them thephone number to the radio
station and then we'll work toget that person what they need.
Remember, here at God's WayRadio you can call or text us at

(31:02):
any time, night or day.
If we don't get to the phoneimmediately, we'll get the
voicemail or we'll see that text.
Our studio phone number is786-313-3115.
You should save that in yourphone.
That way you can use it at anytime, no special code needed,
just like any other phone number.
786-313-3115.

(31:25):
Pastor Mark, you're telling ushow you won over your bride, how
, through the amazing writing.
Yes, you know the other thingthat's so beautiful.
There is that man.
You were just faithful to theLord.
It sounds like You're justseeking the Lord and he brought
her along.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Tell us more about getting married and so yeah, so
I can say this really with, andit actually fits right, because
I bet her on Christmas Eve andto this day I say she's the
greatest Christmas present I wasever given.
She is a gift from God.
And you know?
Just a brief background for mywife.

(32:05):
My wife and I said she was asingle mother at the time.
She is from Florida, she's fromOcala, okay yeah.
And she actually had to fleeOcala.
She was married to a pastor andit was an abusive marriage.
Oh my goodness, and she had toflee and take the kids with her,

(32:25):
and he since passed away nottoo long after that.
But she was, you know, she wason her own, you know, with three
small children and had to.
She had family in Rochester,that's why she fled there.
So she had to do that.
But again, he was a pastor.
So I came back from TeenChallenge and I, you know, and I

(32:51):
worked there for a while inRochester and then I just got a
regular nine to five job workingin manufacturing.
You know we had finishedwriting our letters.
By the way, we still have allthose letters.
Oh that's sweet.
They are, and all of them are.
I would write a five pageletter every day, and she would
write a five page letter everyday, and so for eight months

(33:12):
that's what we did, just wroteletters to each other, and we've
kept them.
We still have those, but she'san incredible Christian woman.
She got saved young, in herearly teens.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Well, I was gonna say I mean I wish she was here to
ask her directly, but man, whatthe Lord must have done or how
she must have clung to the Lordto not lose her faith in that
situation.
You know what I mean?
I mean pastor, he's supposed tobe ABC, and is God even real?
Is this whole Christianitything even real?

(33:44):
I would imagine that had to passthrough her mind, at least
Anything that you could sharewith us on that, that she shared
or that.
You know that crisis of faithin a sense.
Or was she just locked in?

Speaker 3 (33:55):
Yeah, you know she has never mentioned a crisis of
faith in the Lord, but therewere some very real marks, if
you will left, and,interestingly enough, in regards
to ministry, because you knowshe there's just.

(34:16):
How do you trust, right, how doyou trust when the pastor, who
is your husband, has done thesethings, has betrayed you and the
family in that way?
So much so that, when PastorJeff said he was gonna ordain me
, she thought what she said.

(34:39):
I had no plans on being marriedto a pastor again, and so, yeah,
that was a challenge for her.
Was, you know, being married toa pastor and and?

Speaker 2 (34:52):
How long were you married at that point when you
oh five, when you got ordained?

Speaker 3 (34:56):
So I was ordained in 2000.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
We started the church in oh five.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
We got married in 94.
So we had been married sixyears and you know, the Lord was
gracious, I was always serving,I still would serve at Teen
Challenge.
And then when we went toCalvary, rochester in probably
I'm gonna say it's about 97, 98,we went there, I was involved
in the ministry there and I wasan elder at first.

(35:21):
I was oversaw the ushers and Iwas an elder in the church and
so there was a progression thatI think helped her get a little
comfortable before I wasordained.
But yeah, but she mentionedafter I was ordained that, you
know, when she first heard it,when Pastor Jeff proposed, well,

(35:41):
when Pastor Jeff said I wasgoing to be ordained because
that's the way he did that, thatshe thought I can't do this
again.
You know.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
But I'll tell you this, and I'm sure Pastor Zach
would say this, I'm sure any ofthe pastors here would echo this
, certainly Pastor Raz wouldthere is no way I would have
been able to do the things I'vedone in ministry without her.
She has been the absolute rockof my life.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
I don't wanna cry, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
She has been.
She has been the absolute rockof my life and you know,
hopefully I'll get to come backdown here and I'll bring her
with me.
I'd love to be able to do that.
Get her some son Miami, son man, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Well, we'd love to have her, and then we have to
convince her if she wants tocome into the studio.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
See, maybe you get her some flowers.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
No, no, no, no.
We want, we want Breiber.
We'll wait.
We'll wait when she's ready,but I know I mean just hearing
from you about her.
Oh man, what an amazing timewould be to speak with her.
But tell us a little bit aboutyour kids.
They were about how old whenyou got married, or?

Speaker 3 (36:55):
So let's see the oldest would have been.
He was 10.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Okay so, they were they're grown.
Grown now.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
So the three oldest yeah, the three oldest at the
time were 10, eight and six.
Okay, and then, after we gotmarried, we had two more.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Wonderful.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
And you know and I say this too and I know you know
we live in a culture with a lotof blended families.
You know, for us it was alittle different there.
When my wife first came there.
Obviously their dad was downhere in Florida.
They were up in Rochester andhe passed not long after that.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
That must have been hard for them.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
You know, for the oldest I think it was the other
two they really didn't have thatstrong relationship with him
because they had been inRochester for a few years.
They never saw him after theyleft.
He never, you know, he nevercame up to visit and they never
came back down.

(37:57):
So it wasn't as difficult inthat sense for them.
And I know this isn't alwayseasy, for you know families,
blended families and things.
But one thing I've always beenblessed by when we were going to
Calvary of Rochester withPastor Jeff, so we didn't change
their names, we wanted to honorthat and but we were a family.

(38:21):
And so one of the people in ourchurch saw somewhere one of our
daughters, the last name, andit dawned on them oh, they're
not his biological children.
And they said we never knewthat and that was always our
heart was that we would just bea family.

(38:45):
I will say this I have neverwe've been married 29 years I
have never said I havestepchildren, because I do not.
I have five children.
I raised all five of them.
I have five children and theyare my children and so that has
always been a blessing to us tobe a family and to, for the

(39:07):
Lord's grace, to allow us to dothat.
So I would say you know thereare families out there and I
know this is our.
The time we live in, theculture we live in, is a lot of
blended families.
Do what you can to make thatone family unit to labor, to
love one another in such a waythat people on the outside

(39:30):
looking in would never know thatthese aren't all the biological
children of these two people.
You know, we should labor forthat and really strive to make
that what our home looks like.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Amen.
Uh, if my uh math guesses arecorrect though I don't know if
any of them are children anymore.
What your youngest is?
How old our youngest is 21.
I was getting as 20s.
Wow She'll be.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
She'll be 22 in May, Wow so are they spread out?

Speaker 2 (40:02):
They're all still in New York, or?

Speaker 3 (40:03):
so three of them Well , two live in Chile, where we
live.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
Uh, one lives in Gates, which is the next town
over she.
She lives literally fiveminutes from us.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
And I was telling uh, pastor Raz and Pastor Zach, her
kids, she has two kids.
Uh, she's a school teacher.
They get dropped off of theschool bus at our house.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
So they live that close.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
So that's great, we get to spend a lot of time with
them.
Our oldest daughter lives about45 minutes away, okay, uh, her
and her husband have three kids,so they're a little further.
We don't get to see them asmuch.
And our son, who's the oldest?
He lives in Tampa.
Oh, wow, yeah, he moved backdown here, uh, around 1920 years
old, and lived with hisgrandmother in Ocala, and then

(40:50):
he had a friend living in Tampaand he moved down to Tampa.
He was probably about 21 andhe's been there ever since.
So yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
So, pastor Mark, you you got ordained and uh, what?
What gave you the idea to starta church?
I mean, you had a church.
You were we're Pastor Jeff.
What?
What happened?
How did the Lord do that?

Speaker 3 (41:10):
Well, the, the starting the church and being
ordained are both uh kind of thesame thing, in a sense that not
the same thing, but the sameway that they happened.
Um, I was in an elder atCalvary, Rochester, yeah, and I
will tell you, you know, I had agood job, was working as a
production supervisor in amanufacturing uh company, was

(41:31):
making decent money, wasproviding for a family of five
at the time, and Pastor Jeff hadasked if I would go to
shepherd's school, which I, youknow, I was glad to do that and
my job uh.
They were gracious to give meextra time off so I didn't have
to use vacation time.
So before I went to shepherd'sschool, we were.
I never saw myself as a pastor,I never thought I was going to

(41:54):
be a pastor.
It wasn't an ambition I had.
Um, we were.
I used to teach at the church.
I uh, pastor Jeff at the timehad a school of ministry on
Saturdays, kind of a Biblecollege thing.
I taught there.
I filled in for him a lot oftimes on Sundays or Thursday
nights, but never had anaspiration to be a pastor.
So we were sitting at an eldersmeeting one night and and then

(42:16):
you know it's late at night andyou know you're what, you're
winding down, running out ofenergy, and I'm just kind of
staring at the table and PastorJeff mentioned the guys that
were going to shepherd's school.
He said and when they come back, there was myself and two other
guys.
He said we're going to ordainScotty Kevin and I'm going to go
to the pastor and Mark, thatwas the first I heard of it.

(42:36):
So I kid you not, I'm staringat the table and my heart starts
racing in my chest and the onlythought I had was I said I
can't do this.
I thought this is too, this istoo big a deal.
You know, being a pastor isreally a huge responsibility and

(42:58):
I just thought I can't do it.
But I didn't really have awhole lot of saying that.
So I went to shepherd's school,came back and Pastor Jeff
ordained me and and I served inthe church there.
Um, every year, uh, pastor BillGallatin I'm sure you guys know
Pastor Bill he would ask PastorJeff.
So when is when is Mark goingto start a Bible study?

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Well, before we get there, I want to ask um, you
mentioned something reallyinteresting that I do want to, I
do want to uh, delve into for amoment.
Hmm, you said, oh, I didn'thave much of a choice in that,
and you're laughing about it andwe're joking about it, but I
would like you to elaborate onthat, because you know guys that
are serving in church, you knoweven ladies that are serving in
church in a, in any capacity, Ithink, and I'll let you comment

(43:45):
on it.
Uh, don't, don't, don't holdany of my comments to Pastor
Mark's account Guys, the ladiesthat are listening but I think
that it's something that is lostin our church.
Not our church specificallyCalvary is amazing but in
general in the church, this ideaof just just authority, of of
discipleship, where, the wayyou're describing it, it sounds

(44:07):
like this, and I'll give you themic in a second.
It's kind of like, hey, ifyou're going to continue, this
is the next step.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
You know if, if you don't want to continue, then you
can bow out, you can step out,but but this is the next step,
you know, in serving the Lordand serving in our church, and
continuing to follow the Lord,and, and and I think a lot of
times people want to kind ofwrite their own manual on how
they're going to do it, and, andand when you're invited, when
you're challenged.

(44:34):
Sometimes you know it's notsome people wish that their
pastor would tell them they'regoing to be ordained, but some
people they're told hey, youknow what I want you to.
I want you to to, to to makesure that this uh food gets put
out.
Hey, you know what, I want youto make sure that the parking
lots taken care of.
And and they're they're asked todo things, and Well, I'll get
back to you, I'll pray about it.
I mean, of course, nobody'sgoing to tell you not to, but

(44:57):
it's like, okay, yeah, surepastor, sure I could do that,
you know, yeah yeah, that's,that's that's.
That's what I'm.
Some of the things I'm thinking, yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
And I think that was a lot of what had happened, uh,
without my paying attention toit was anything they asked me to
do I did.
You know I was, my heart was toserve.
So if they asked me, the firstthing I ever did at Calvary
Chapel of Rochester, um, and wehad been there a few months and
got settled in and I I just said, is there anything I can do?
And uh, they said, you know, weneed all these doors painted.

(45:28):
So I came in and painted doors.
There you go.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
You know, I, I did whatever they needed.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
And uh.
Then, when they found out I wasteaching because I was teaching
a teen challenge still theyasked me hey, would you uh,
teach this Sure?
And I did it, and then theypushed me a little further.
Hey, can you cover a Thursdaynight?
Sure, you know.
And to gradually tell I wasstanding up there on a Sunday
morning, um, but I think it'simportant too and this is where

(45:59):
the relationships aresignificant is I.
I had a deep trust in my pastor, so I I believed that God was
guiding him and that there weregoing to be things at times that
, uh, he might see that I maynot, because I may not not that
God isn't speaking to me too,but that I may just not be

(46:21):
listening as well.
So when I say you know, I hadno choice, excuse me, what by
that?
What I mean is, um, when hesaid that, I was terrified
because I thought this is, Ireally had a respect for
pastoral ministry and I thoughtit's, it is a big deal to be

(46:42):
entrusted with the souls ofother people.
Um, but I.
The reason I say I had nochoice was I recognized he saw
that and I trusted that.
How was that trust developedand built?

Speaker 2 (46:54):
You know it's, you know it's a good question Um.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
I think with pastor Jeff it was just the way he
gradually, you know he would, hewould talk to me a lot about
ministry, but the way hegradually and very
systematically gave me greaterand greater responsibilities,
just just over the years, justhanding me more things and and

(47:18):
building me up in the work ofministry, Um, you know, I was, I
was doing Sunday morningservices and I wasn't a pastor,
you know, but he had moved me tothat, that particular point,
and so that trust was developed,that you know he knows what
he's doing.
I may not always know what I'mdoing, but I trusted he did.

(47:39):
It sounds like you were able totrust more in him.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
As you saw, he trusted more in you yeah, yeah,
that would be a good way ofputting it.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutelyyeah, so you were ordained.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
So I was ordained, and then you said okay, I'm
going to go start my church?

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Nope, didn't say that , didn't say that, didn't say
that, didn't say that.
I didn't say that.

Speaker 3 (47:59):
I didn't say that.
I didn't say that.
I didn't say that, so I had wewere just having this
conversation at breakfast I, um,I was very content to serve at
our church and and probablywould still be doing that today.
Wow, um, you know, I was, I wasteaching, I was involved in,
you know, like a Bible college.

(48:19):
I was doing that.
Uh, I oversaw the ushersministry, I oversaw the helps
ministry.
You know I was very involvedand very content, um, my wife
was serving and you know we werejust very happy there is a
family, uh but, pastor Jeff,this was also on a volunteer
basis.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
You still had your full time job.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
Yeah, I still had a full time job and just doing all
those things, and pastor Jeffwould routinely would say pastor
Bill keeps asking me when areyou going to start a home study?
And I'd say, I don't know, prayabout that.
But at the time, with all thethings I was doing in the church
full time job, five childrenjust didn't think it was

(48:57):
something I could do.
So at the end of 2003, uh,pastor Bill had asked him again
and he came to me Pastor Billwants to know when you're going
to start a home study.
And I said, well, we'll prayabout it.
So I went home and I and mywife and I prayed about it and
you know I'm trying to manage itright.
So I came back to pastor Jeff.

(49:18):
I said well.
I said I said we're, this waslate, uh, 2003.
I said, well, we'll start onein the spring.
It's about six months later.
We'll start it in the spring.
I said we're just going to doevery other week.
He said, no, I think you shouldstart in January and I think
you should do every week.

(49:39):
Okay, so so I got no choice, no, I just got no choice.
So, but again I trusted him.
So he said if you do that it'snot going to work.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:49):
Um.
So I said okay.
So I'm thinking this is just ahome study for our church and
that's what it'll be.
So we started like a smallgroup or something along those
lines.
So we started January of 2004meeting in our home.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Uh, it started growing and just hit 20 years
this year.
Yes, I was starting the homeBible study.
Yeah, for the home Bible study.

Speaker 3 (50:13):
Um, so it started growing, uh, pretty quickly.
I mean it wasn't huge, but itwas too big for our house.
So there was a church acrossthe street from our house.
So a couple of the guys said,well, why don't we just pull our
money and we can rent spacethere and do our?
It'll be a the home Bible study, but we'll have room.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Something else I love .

Speaker 3 (50:33):
It wasn't.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Hey, let's do a fundraiser.
Hey, let's go ask for money.
Let's pull together some of ourown and do this together.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
I love that attitude, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
Now, at the time, though, at least from my
perspective and my wife'sperspective we're just moving
the home Bible study across thestreet because there's not
enough room in the home.
Yeah, yeah so we did that.
And obviously with our kids,we're all there.
So some of the ladies starteddoing like we'll do something
for the kids.
Well, you know, so it's, it'schanging, but I'm not paying

(51:05):
attention.
So we did that for about a year.
Uh, early mid 2005, probablyabout May or so.
2005,.
May or June, one of the couplesthat had been with us from the
beginning took my wife and I outto lunch and he knew what he
was doing, took us to OutbackSteakhouse for steaks Bloomin'

(51:25):
on you.
He got me with the steak, butwe had, you know, we had a nice
lunch.
We just talked.
And so when lunch was over, thehusband, he said well, we've
been asked to sit down with youguys and ask when we're going to
start Sunday services.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
Oh, because this whole timing wasn't on Sunday.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
No, we were meeting at I think it was Wednesday
nights or something.
So my wife and I looked at eachother and I looked back at them
and I said why would we do that?

Speaker 2 (51:56):
And who asked them that they ever tell you?

Speaker 3 (51:58):
No, they didn't, it was just, it was within the
group.
They had had a conversation andthey asked him well, why don't
you take?

Speaker 2 (52:04):
him out to lunch.
We want to be a real church.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
Yeah, our own church.
But that was my question.
I said why would we do that?
We all went to church together.
Why would we do that?
And his response was simplythis.
He said well, this is ourchurch and, to be honest with
you, my wife and I never saw itcoming.
We just were trying to servethe Lord and content to do that,

(52:29):
and didn't realize that it hadbecome the church for the folks
that were coming.
We were all still going toCalvary, rochester on Sundays.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
The first thing I think of is is what's Pastor
Jeff going to say?

Speaker 3 (52:41):
I mean, are you taking people we did, but here's
what.
So this again, this is the waythe Lord works.
So that was, I don't know, aMonday or a Tuesday.
So we had Thursday night churchat Calvary, rochester.
So I said, well, I better go inand talk to Pastor Jeff.
So I walked in his officebefore church and I said I need

(53:02):
to talk to you about somethingand before I could get it out he
said you guys are going tostart Sundays.
I said yeah.
I said how'd you know that?
He said well, billy, who washis assistant pastor.
He said Billy, and I have beenwaiting going.
When is he going to start doingSundays?

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
And then I'm realizing oh, this was his play
all along.
This is what he was looking atwas taking some people from the
church and planning anotherchurch.
So I said to him.
I said well, pastor Jeff.
I said, if you knew that allalong, why didn't you tell me
that?
And I'll never forget it.
He said, mark, ministry can behard, he said.

(53:45):
And when things get difficult,if all you have is Pastor Jeff
told me I'm supposed to do this.
He said that's not going to beenough.
He said we needed you to hearit from the Lord that this is
what you're supposed to do.
And to this day I'm thankfulfor that because he was right.
Ministry can be tough.
There can be difficult days inministry and if you're pastoring

(54:08):
a church and you're goingthrough one of those difficult
seasons and all you know issomebody else told me I was
supposed to do this, that's notgoing to be enough.
You need to be able to say thisis what God has called me to
and that carries you throughthose difficult seasons.
So that's how we ended upstarting.
So they were very happy to sendthose few people out with us.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Praise the Lord.

Speaker 3 (54:34):
And yeah, that was their plan all along.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
You know, it's such a contrast to the models that you
see.
You know, if you're listeningand you're familiar with church
or Christianity or churchplanting and I don't mean to
speak poorly, it's just verydifferent.
And I do see the wisdom and howit happened with you and so many
other Calvaries.
The difference model is, youknow, they're sent out with

(54:58):
money, with a team, with a plan.
I think sometimes they even dopromotional drives or something,
or they do flyers, or what dothey call it, or not inaugural,
Like the first service, you knowthere's a name?

Speaker 3 (55:14):
Yeah, I'm sure, Anyways.
I get the idea.
So, it's so different, you know, and you just say I mean if
there's anything tied to it.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
But you just said it's knowing that you're called.
You know when the times gettough, so so interesting Again,
anybody listening that maybethey're in that season.
Let me ask you this, pastorMark, Can you speak directly to
anyone listening that's in thatseason?
They're serving the Lord.
Maybe they're not called tostart a church, but they're
being called out to startsomething, to do something

(55:46):
greater, kind of on their own,take a leadership role.
What would you say to thatperson?

Speaker 3 (55:49):
You know, I think the well, the one part of advice I
would give them is just growingin their confidence in God to be
who he says he is.
There's, no, it's not anaccident that David says the
Lord is my shepherd.
One of the things I tell youngpeople when they because

(56:11):
inevitably young people askthose questions how do you know
you know?
How do you know what you'resupposed to do?
What's God's advice?
How do you know God's will foryour life.
And I tell them well, there arecertain things that say this is
the will of God, you know foryou, and those are easy, but I
would, I try to and I wouldencourage anyone in ministry to
keep this in mind.
The longer I have walked withthe Lord and the longer I have

(56:35):
served the Lord, my personalconfidence in myself to know
what to do all the time hasdecreased.
I just don't, I don't know whatto do.
I just don't have thatconfidence that I know what to
do but simultaneously, kind oflike scales on a balance, the

(56:55):
more my self confidence hasdecreased, the more my
confidence in the Lord as ashepherd has increased.
Sheep don't know where they'regoing.
The shepherd knows.
The sheep just follow theshepherd.
And, as what I've discovered is, you know, work more on

(57:17):
deepening your communion withGod, your fellowship with God,
your time spent in prayer, yourtime spent in the word over
strategy, because you canstrategize all you want.
You don't know what tomorrowholds anyway, but the shepherd
knows what tomorrow holds and heknows where you're going and he
knows how to get you there.

(57:38):
And if you focus more on him,you sometimes you just lift up
your head and you look aroundand you say I don't know how we
got here, but we're here.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Well, that's what I was going to ask you If we fast
forward I want to fast forwardand then go back a little bit
and we're coming near to the endof our time.
I told you it would go quick.
Where you guys at now Do youhave a building about how many
people go to the church?
Give us like a real time updateof glory to glory.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
So interestingly, and I guess it's different in
different places, the type ofministry we do same thing here,
just verse by verse, teaching ofthe scriptures.
The city of Rochester, for someodd reason, just doesn't seem
to take well to that type ofministry.

(58:26):
All of the Calvaries and thingsare on the outside of the city,
the ministries that have startedout in the city all ended up
moving out of the city andactually growing as they moved
out.
Just, it seems that inRochester, rochester has a
history, you know Charles Finney, and it's just a different

(58:48):
history, I guess.
And a lot of the inner city isnot necessarily focused on that
kind of verse by verse, bibleteaching.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
I've only visited a couple of times, but it's like a
mini New York City in a sense.
Correct me if I'm wrong it'svery developed.
My greatest memory is theMuseum of Play, because I have
little kids.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
I just remember the coffee shops tall skyscrapers
library, incredible largelibraries.
It's a city in all sense of theword.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Interesting, so we were in the city because it's
not in the city.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
We're in the city because of the time we lived in
the city and there was aCatholic church that was closing
with a.
They had a school, a church anda that never happens.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
A Catholic church yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Well, a few of them in Rochester lately have.
So one of the guys came into thestudy one night and he had a
newspaper.
He said look, this church goes.
Then he said nah, they'reselling this whole property.
We couldn't afford it becauseat the time there were probably
20 of us and we couldn't.
But about six months later Iwas just sitting on my sofa

(01:00:00):
reading my Bible and praying andI just felt in my heart this
you know, find out who boughtthe building, the property.
So there's a lady in our churchwho's my administrative
assistant.
Now I asked her if she couldfind out.
Can you find out who boughtthat property?
Three days later she contactsme.
The day I had asked her, acharter school had closed the

(01:00:22):
property that day and the day Iwas asking her.
So we had discussions with themand ended up, long story short,
leasing the church building.
Wow, so that was 2007.
So we leased that churchbuilding beginning in 2007.
They never wanted to sell.
They said they would never sellit.
They wanted to always be ableto control the property, so they

(01:00:42):
would never sell the building.
So we went into a knowing wewould known it.
But we spent years therepraying, looking for a property
of our own.
We grew probably from about 25or 30 people.
We grew to maybe 65, 70 whilewe were there, but again it was,
you know, growth, strength,growth.

(01:01:03):
It was always that kind ofthing, but we never could find a
building of our own until justthis past year.
Wow, one of my burdens 2023.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Yes, okay 2023,.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
one of my burdens had always been you know, we were
the generation that God used tostart the church, and my heart
was when we're all gone, we wantto leave the next generation a
property that they own outright.
And they can just focus onserving God in ministry, not
buying a building or paying offa mortgage and all those things

(01:01:42):
and we had been praying aboutthat and just longing for that,
to do this for the nextgeneration.
And this particular building achurch was in it that was
shrinking and they initiallyasked if we would lease it and
they would move their servicetime.
We could have Sunday mornings,but we would lease the property
from them.
Within a month or so ofdiscussions it changed to how

(01:02:04):
about you buy the property fromus and we'll lease it from you?
Wow, we'll meet on Sundaynights or Saturdays, yeah.
And then ultimately, we endedup buying the property.
We moved in in June.
It's got five acres of land.
We moved in in June Wow,beautiful.
We bought it in October.
The church that was there, anumber of their people just

(01:02:28):
stayed with us, so they became apart of our church.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Yeah, they kept going to church Sunday mornings.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
Yeah, just kept coming Sunday mornings and now
they were a part of Glory toGlory.
Yeah, so we basically inOctober we took over the
property, so we haven't had timeto do anything with it yet and
we're looking at the spring tomake some changes.
There's a lot of woods.
We're going to probably cutdown some of that and increase
the parking lot, just have somediscussions about how we might

(01:02:56):
make the building a littlebigger and things like that.
But we've grown quite a bit injust a few months We've been
there.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
Not sure why that is Not sure.
Not sure why the Lord did itthat way, but we've seen a lot
of new faces just since we movedin, so just over seven months
ago.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
So you think here what 150, 200 or not Doulton?

Speaker 3 (01:03:20):
children.
We're probably close to 150,probably in there somewhere yeah
sweet yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
And growing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
So we're really excited about that and yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
And it's awesome.
You know what?
I always hesitate to ask ortalk about numbers, you know,
because it's not about thenumbers, but you have it in the
scripture.
You know, at one point Davidwasn't supposed to count.
Then he was told to count youknow.
Okay, now it's appropriate.
Right now don't worry about it,but it's sweet to see it's
sweet to see the people comingand, man, I'm excited.
I'm excited for you guys.
Pastor Mark, as we kind ofclose up here, you know we

(01:03:53):
covered again.
Thank you for sharing yourtestimony and what God's done at
the church and your wonderfulfamily.
Is there anything else that youwant to leave our listeners
with?
Again, as you think theaudience that will be listening
to this it could be anybody.
This is first going to go on toour podcast pretty soon here,
probably, the data recordingwere in March of 2024.

(01:04:14):
It might be up by the end ofthe month or sooner, if not
definitely in April.
It's going to live on thepodcast in perpetuity.
It'll end up on the radio aswell.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
So whatever comes to your heart and mind that you
want to leave us with, yeah,yeah, I mean, you know I would
probably go back to where westarted and and that is you know
, we always have to rememberwhen we're telling our story,
we're telling a story of God'sgrace and I would encourage
anyone listening, whereverthey're at, in their, in their
walk, maybe somebody who's not,who's listening, who's not even

(01:04:43):
saved.
The God that we're talkingabout is limitless in his
ability.
There is, there is no limit towhat he can do in a human life
and, and I would challenge themto take him up on that, you know

(01:05:05):
, fall into the arms of the Lordand see what God might do.
I just had the privilege oftalking to Pastor Raz and he's
telling me the history of howyou moved into this property and
it's it.
Is that story right?
It's a story of God, and a Godwho is limitless in his capacity
Amen and.

(01:05:25):
And who does great things, and,and that they, you know if
you're listening.
Just trust him.
Yes, trust him.
Cast yourself into his arms,because you have no idea what
God may want to do in your life,and, and and the story will
bring him glory in the end.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
Amen, pastor Mark, I have one last request.
Could you close us with aprayer?

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
Absolutely yeah, father.
We just thank you, lord.
We thank you, father, for yourmarvelous grace, that you are
the God who stooped down intothe life of humanity, that
you're the God who clothedyourself with our skin and lived
among us.
You're the God who suffered inour place.

(01:06:09):
You're the God who is seated atthe right hand of the Father.
Lord Jesus, you are our Kingand Father.
We thank you, lord, for theprivilege of sharing with others
the marvelous work of yourgrace in our lives.
I pray, father, for theministry here, for the radio

(01:06:29):
ministry, for the church here,god, I just pray, father, that
you would do great things intheir lives, lord, that you'd be
revealing yourself to them,father, encouraging them in the
faith, continuing the good workthat you have begun and
magnifying your holiness intheir lives.
Please bless them and encouragethem.
Thank you for the privilege ofbeing here.

(01:06:51):
I pray, god, that you wouldcontinue to guide and direct the
steps of the folks here inMiami, as well as ours in
Rochester.
We ask these things in Jesus'name, amen.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
Thank you again, pastor Mark Mills, from Glory to
Glory Christian Fellowship inGreece, new York.
God's a radio family grace andpeace team.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
We hope you enjoyed Friends and Family, unique
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(01:07:36):
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