Terri Hord Owens on building a connected Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:05):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church into the 21st century.
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
community of faith walk boldly into the future.

(00:27):
Now here's your host, Lauren Richmond Junior.

>> Loren (00:35):
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're
welcoming Reverend Teresa Hord Owens to the show.
Reverend Hord Owens is the general minister and president of
the Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United States
and Canada. She is the first person of color and
second woman to lead the denomination and the
first woman of african descent to lead a, uh, mainline

(00:56):
denomination. Elected in 2017,
Reverend Hort Owens was re elected to a second term
as general minister and president in 2023.
Her ministry actively reflects the disciples priority
of, uh, being an anti racist church, being a movement for
wholeness, welcoming all to the Lord's table as God has
welcomed us. Her exhortation to the church is,

(01:17):
let's be the church we say we are. It is in being who
we say we are that we actively bear witness to God's
limitless love for all. Reverend Horde Owens
earned her bachelor's degree from Harvard University
and her m div from a University of Chicago divinity
school, where she subsequently served as dean of
students for twelve years. Reverend Hord
Owen's resume includes more than 20 years of leadership in corporate

(01:40):
America, leading diverse teams in data management.
She serves on the National Council of Churches as the
treasurer of the governing board and is a member of the
World Council of Church's central committee.
Let's welcome Reverend Horde Owens to the show.
Uh, all right, welcome to the Future

(02:03):
Christian podcast. This is Lauren Richmond, junior, and
I'm m pleased to be welcoming today
general minister and president of the Christian Church, disciple of
Christ, Reverend Theresa Hort Owens. Thank
you so much for being here today.

>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens (02:16):
Well, thank you, Loren for having me. I'm excited to have this
conversation.

>> Loren (02:20):
Yeah, looking forward to it as well.
So, anything else you'd like to share about yourself with
our listeners?

Well, uh, the most exciting thing that's happening in
my life is I'm a, ah, relatively new grandma. I have an
18 month old grandson who
lives here in the Chicago area with me. I get to spend, uh,
time with him. So, uh, he sort of
rearranged my priorities for, uh, what I
do with my free time and a different
perspective, uh, on the world. I'm

(02:50):
also a very musical person. I'm married to a musician and gave birth
to one, uh, and, uh, so
our family is really into theater and all kinds
of classical, uh, hip hop. My
son produces k pop. So.
Gifted with a beautiful family.

>> Loren (03:06):
Yeah, yeah. And I'll say, as a parent, we appreciate
grandparents involvement.

Yeah, exactly.

>> Loren (03:14):
Well, sure. If you would kind of your faith journey, what
that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.

Um, I grew up in a progressive,
uh, Baptist church where my grandfather was the
minister. Small town in southern Indiana.
Indiana, uh, at the time, and still is, some would
argue, um,
it's beyond a red state. For many years in the early
20th century, Indiana was sort of the republican party.

(03:42):
In Indiana was the klan. My grandfather was
active in, uh, helping to desegregate
public facilities, worked very closely, led
the NAACP in our town. Got, uh, several
threats and death threats as a result of that work. So for
me, I was baptized at an
early age, like five years old, vacation bible

(04:02):
school. And papa was the minister. So
what he said had great credibility. Um,
and so I always saw the model of church as
being faith, um, in
community. Um, our church was
the ground zero for a lot of
community work. My grandfather helped to build a
new community center, um, that still

(04:25):
stands the Charles T. Height community center. So
the kinds of things that I saw faith in action, along with Sunday
school and Baptist training union and vacation bible
school, I saw the church very active in the community, really
vibrant, um, ministry to
college students. Indiana state, Rose
Hellman Institute of Technology, St. Mary of the woods
college. Um, so it was a very

(04:48):
vibrant and well rounded ministry.
Uh, and my other set of
grandparents, uh, belonged to another baptist
church, sort of out in what we call the country, a small
church that had been founded in 1850 by a,
uh, community of blacks who came to that part of
the state in 1820.

>> Loren (05:07):
Wow.

Um, and so I'm descended from a really
historic african american community in Indiana. Always
knew about those roots from my grandparents and
my. So one grandfather's a minister, the other's a
deacon in the other church. Very active.
And so church was a big part of my life, but it was also
about community and justice from a very early
age.

>> Loren (05:28):
Yeah. So if I heard you right then,
you're kind of a preacher's kid. Yes, technically.

Yeah. PGK, preacher's grandkid. Yeah.

>> Loren (05:36):
Okay. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Yes, yes.
Okay, great. Uh, and then share, if you would, kind of your
journey into the, uh, christian church, disciple of
Christ, and how that led to where you're at right
now.

Yes. Um, my mother moved to
Indianapolis when I was in college. My parents had
divorced, um, and my mother did a
unique thing. She invited her three college age
kids to look for a church together.
Um, we had friends who were members of,
uh, the second christian church, as it was known now, light
of the world christian church. But my grandfather had been

(06:11):
a state leader in the baptist church. And so we
literally, I think, visited probably every black baptist
church in Indianapolis and kept coming back to second
christian doctor t. Garrett Benjamin junior. And
we finally made the decision as a family, my mom and her
three college age kids. The, uh, decision to join that
church, not really realizing at the time what it meant
for this church to be connected with the

(06:34):
christian church, disciples of Christ. Um,
but in my college years, being home
during the summers when I graduated from college,
I came back to Indiana and served that
church, um, on the music staff, part
time playing and working with, um, the
youth choir. Um, my career

(06:54):
led me away to Chicago and I
actually joined another church,
um, an ame zion church, met m and
married my husband, who was recruited back to my home
disciples church, uh, to be the minister of
music. And from that point, uh, I
discerned a call of ministry at my home church. And
we were there for about nine years, um,

(07:16):
and eventually, once I discerned that
call, wanted to go to the University of Chicago. We have
disciples divinity House affiliated with the divinity school
there, a really strong disciples community. And so that brought
us back to Chicago and we've been here ever since.
But I was, um, an
it consultant, it executive. Ah, I

(07:36):
was recruited away from my, um,
corporate career, which I was always, uh, working.
I was working full time and
going to school full time. Uh, it was a crazy
four years, actually. Um, with a nine year
old, my son and my husband serving
a large church in ministry. He took a job with the church so that

(07:57):
we come back, uh, and I served,
um, the University of Chicago divinity School for twelve years as
dean of students. And while I was doing that,
pastored, uh, a small congregation in the western
suburbs of Chicago, First Christian church
in Downers Grove. So that's the work I was doing. Very
fulfilled. And I say that
I was drafted, people, when it

(08:19):
was time for Sharon Watkins to end her term, my
predecessor, people said, have you ever thought about, um,
being considered for general minister and president? And I quite honestly had
not. Uh, and there were so many people that kept
asking me this and I allowed people to put my
name into nomination for the process and quite
honestly was not, um, that stressed out about it

(08:40):
because I was so, I was very happy
and content, um, being the dean of
students at the divinity school and, um,
serving the congregation. There are
parts of both of those things that I really miss.
Um, but, uh,
you laugh and say you have a plan and God has another

(09:00):
plan. So m I
just began the process and said, if it is
for me, it will be, and we'll see what happens. So
here I am, and just reelected to my second
term last summer at our general assembly.

>> Loren (09:14):
Yeah. And I was fortunate to be a part of that, uh, election,
I think, you know, I think it was pretty safe bet
you were going to get there. But I'm glad to support
you. Share, if you would,
some things that sustain you spiritually,
uh, especially as you have this big
role of leading so many pastors and so many

(09:34):
people.

Absolutely. I think one of the most important things,
and I've said this from the beginning when, uh, I was the
nominee, and I continue to say it everywhere I go, is
that, um, we are followers of
Jesus Christ. And so we have. There's a spiritual
person, Paul calls it the inner man, that
has to be fed and nurtured. Um,

(09:55):
and I firmly believe
in, uh, prayer, meditation,
spiritual practice. I practice centering prayer,
uh, which is simply being quiet
and allowing God to speak. Um, I lead an
intercessory prayer time whenever I can
on Facebook, live on Wednesdays. I started

(10:16):
that during the pandemic. Continue to do it, even
though I'm traveling more. I can't do it every week, but I continue
to do it because I enjoy inviting people into
that sacred space where we. I reflect a little on
scripture, whatever the lectionary texts are. I do just
a brief commentary on this text, and, uh,
then I pray for whatever people want

(10:36):
prayer for. Uh, I ask them to, let's
celebrate. Let's thank God. What are the, um.
What are the praise reports but my own
practice now that I'm not pastoring, um, and preaching
every week. I preach quite a bit on the
weekends, but when I'm not,
um, because I'm not pastoring, I study the lectionary
every week. And that's become my Bible study, sort of

(10:58):
my guide through the Bible. I have lots of
different, um, devotional texts that I read.
I'm always, uh, walking alongside our
denominational advent and lenten
devotionals. Um, I read a lot of
Howard Thurman. Um, so I
really believe you have to study. Fred

(11:18):
Craddock, one of our illustrious preachers,
said, the life of ministry is a life of study.
And so we can't really
grapple or wrestle with the text that
God knows that it's a hard text sometimes to deal
with and to preach and to teach, but you have to kind
of stay with it. And, um, that feeds me.

(11:39):
Uh, I spend time in prayer and meditation
and try to find, ah, quiet time for
myself. I travel a lot, so sometimes
time on the plane becomes
that quiet time where I just put earbuds in
and just am quiet and alone to myself.
Yeah.

>> Loren (11:57):
Closer to God, we might say. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really important. And,
um, I find that when I don't do those
things regularly, I can feel a difference in myself.
And, uh, I think it's important for those of us who
serve, particularly who are, uh, faith leaders,
spiritual leaders, that if we're dry, you can, you know,
psalm one says, uh, that the one who

(12:19):
meditates on the word of the Lord day and night will be like a tree planted
by the rivers of water. His fruit will give fruit
in due season and his leaves, the leaves won't
wither.

>> Loren (12:29):
Yeah.

Well, if you're spiritually dry, if you've ever touched a
flower or, um, flower, uh,
arrangement, uh, that's brittle, it can cut
you and hurt you. So if you are spiritually dry,
I think as a spiritual leader, uh, you will either
damage yourself or worse yet, you can damage
people when you're not in a good place emotionally and
spiritually.

>> Loren (12:50):
Boy, good lesson there. Good lesson
there. Yeah. Thank you. Well, I
appreciate you sharing all that. Uh, so for our listeners, I
had Terry on to talk about her
role, uh, leading our denomination, shared
denomination. The christian church, disciples of Christ. We're going to kind of
center some of our conversation based on her
presentation, uh, at the state of the church,

(13:12):
uh, as she led the general board and
ministry here. That was in April, if I remember correctly.

In April, correct.

>> Loren (13:18):
Yeah. Um, so let's begin just kind of
talking about some of the. This is going to be a little
inside baseball here, um, for. For
listeners who are our ecumenical listeners, so to speak.
But share, if you would, kind of what's happening around the
denomination with the Covenant project,
the narrative project, the proclamation project, those sorts of
things.

Sure. Um, the Covenant project, ah,
represents a huge vote that the General
assembly took last summer to change two
things. The way our general board is,
uh, how it's comprised and how it's
selected, and then the cycle
and method, uh, by gathering our general
assembly, we're, I think, the only mainline

(14:01):
denomination that actually has a governance
process that allows every single congregation to
have voting, uh, delegates to make choices. So
the general assembly for us was like the top,
um, body. Yeah, that's the body that
elects me. And we you know, our moderators and
there's many decisions that could

(14:21):
be made by the general board, but ultimately have to go to the
General assembly because that's the people, those are the
congregations you can attend a general
assembly meeting. Um, and again,
we have to stress that the general assembly is actually the body,
it's the church. Our church's legal name is the general
assembly of the christian church, disciples of Christ,
um, in the United States and Canada. Um,

(14:44):
but we have to, um. In a
world where people are less able to
afford to attend in person only meetings.
Right.

>> Loren (14:53):
Right.

What it has meant over time is that the
participation in those key decision
making gatherings is going down.
I remember when there were eight, 9000 people at general
assembly. Uh, and the last two we've had
a little over 3000. Um, and so
that means that the people who are really making the
decisions and each congregation right

(15:16):
now gets two, uh, voting delegates.
And, um, anyone can attend.
Anyone can actually come to the mic and have voice,
but there are only a few people from each of those congregations
that are allowed to vote. Um, we've
changed. Um, so with the goal of this
connection and getting more people involved in

(15:36):
this very unique, um, my counterparts and
peers in the ecumenical world say every single
congregation gets a representative. It's like, yes,
every single congregation we have a little over
3000. The new rules would give every
congregation three voting delegates. So we could
potentially have a gathering of 9000 people.
So we've moved the in person event from every

(15:59):
two years to every three years. But in between, we're going
to start having virtual digital, uh,
gatherings at least once a year. Not just to
have a docket where we vote yay or nay on particular
topics, but to develop this
understanding of listening. It was like listening,
learning, discerning and deciding. Right.
So, uh, sometimes we have issues that come to the

(16:21):
floor of the general assembly and we don't even
know or understand the issue that's, uh,
at hand. Um, we had an emergency
resolution in Louisville in July that
just simply wanted to oppose, uh, the
anti trans legislation. It was causing so
much devastation to young people and their
families and taking away the rights of parents to decide

(16:44):
how they would care for their kids and their kids own
process. Um, some people don't even know
what the word transgender means or what that
actually means, and they're confused. So if you bring something
to the floor and we haven't had a chance to do education or
discussion about it, we create these sort of false
divisions that are simply there because we

(17:04):
haven't moved to the place where people understand well
enough to authentically disagree. And m. We also
have a situation where if you feel that the position
that's being taken, no one's going to hear you. Oh, uh, the
church is always going to vote along these lines. I can't
speak. That's not a situation that we want,
either. So, hopefully, within these

(17:24):
virtual meetings. And the virtual meetings are not
being construed as everybody in a Zoom
box. Right. And we've got thousands of people on
a zoom screen. We're thinking more communal
gatherings, like, we might have, um, churches
that have the ability to connect, you know, good wi
fi. Wi fi is weak in
certain parts of the country. Um, but maybe there's a

(17:47):
church that has space, almost like a mini regional
assembly, where people could come and gather. They could be sort of a
satellite hub and connect both the
visual and, uh, the ability to come to the
mic, um, and conduct
this sort of church wide, a virtual
meeting where the voting representatives still

(18:07):
have the ability to vote. We're looking at technology that will allow
us to vote remotely, but even people in the
congregations who are not voting
representatives would still be able to participate,
hear what's happening, contribute, speak,
and have a greater sense of being connected to, uh,
this wider church. So those are the changes that will be

(18:28):
happening with the general assembly, with the general board.
Currently, each regional ministry, that's
31 regions, and each general ministry, 13 of
those, sends a representative, and that leaves us with
17 at large. Well, just
because each one sends one doesn't necessarily mean that
the whole is as diverse as we want it to be.
And right now, those terms are like two years. So every

(18:50):
two years, you've got a new group of people, just as they're
figuring it out. You have to continually
educate people about the trajectory of where the church
is going. We also don't necessarily get
the kinds of skills that you would want on any board.
Um, financial, organizational
development, teachers, educators,
attorneys, as well as clergy. We always

(19:12):
try, uh, to have a good balance between clergy and laity
so that our laity are in good numbers.
Uh, so the general board is not dominated, uh,
by clergy, but there's an equal proportion of
laity. So instead of each one sending one,
people will now nominate, and the general nominating committee
will choose 50 voting representatives.

(19:33):
Smaller, uh, board, working board that will be
in participating, will be participating,
rather, with these, uh, virtual gatherings every
year with the general assembly will have the ability for the
moderator to call the general assembly into
session digitally. Um, so that's the
covenant project, really, trying to get people more plugged
in to the decision making and

(19:56):
discerning process of, uh, various issues
that are part of the church, and making it
possible for people to participate so that the
economics of being there in person for
travel is not a barrier. And even when we
do gather in person, creating a hybrid option
so that you can participate in all the business

(20:16):
remotely. Um, so that. And we're calling it covenant
project. Um, number one, because when you say
governance, people's eyes roll backwards in their
heads. Um, but because we're a
covenantal body, we don't have a hierarchical
structure. I don't have a big gavel where I can just say,
so let it be written, so let it be done. Right. So

(20:36):
our churches are really the foundation,
and they're really the highest pillar of
decision, uh, making that we have. So we have to be sure
that our congregations can participate, because one of
the things that we learned in this whole process is too many of
our congregations, they don't know how the general board works. They don't know what
happens at general assembly. They are the

(20:57):
crux of all of that. And so, connection is
really there. So this covenant, we, uh, had created a
curriculum, a six week video curriculum with a study
guide to really reinforce what does it mean to
be a church that lives in covenant. And so let me jump
to the church narrative project.
Um, church narrative project,
kind of. And I'm always trying to connect the dots between

(21:20):
these three. I started out, um,
setting a personal goal to say, we're a church
that's anti racist, pro reconciling,
and we've been doing this for decades, right? We've been training
for decades, and it feels like the training has only
gotten to the clergy level. Has
it really made it into the pews? How do we better live into that?

(21:40):
Uh, and consulted with doctor, uh,
David Anderson Hooker, who I had met at a national council of churches
event, and, um, thought, well, maybe he could
help us sort of assess reconciliation, uh, ministry.
What he taught me was that unless we change
the narrative that we're all living into training,
uh, won't matter. Uh, he calls

(22:01):
the narrative the highway, and the stories are our
cars. So we could let a whole lot of cars
onto the highway, right? Uh, but
if the direction in which they could move doesn't
change, then we're not
changing anything, really. Um, I often
say that the unspoken narrative of our church

(22:21):
is that we're really a predominantly white
denomination that has decided it wants to let some other people
come to the table. So as long as we're still acting and living
like that nothing will really change. M. You can even have a black
GNP, for heaven's sake. And if everything else
that you understand about who we are and where the real
power is and where the real opportunities are, that doesn't

(22:41):
change. Um, then nothing has really
changed. So the church narrative project is
region by region. We're having conversations allowing people
to sort of name what's the problematic, because
people aren't the problem. The problem is the problem. Let's name
the problem. We all probably have people that if we
could move them out of the way, our lives

(23:01):
would be simpler. But it's not that simple.
The problem is the problem. And so, region by region,
Doctor Andersen spends time with them. Um, and we sort of
map it out. And then we talk about, in the
midst of all of that, what are the things that you really
want the christian church, disciples of Christ to be and speak
to? What do you want people to feel and experience as

(23:22):
part of this church? So now we've done twelve
regions and we're starting to kind of compare notes.
And the hope is that we'll build
this common narrative, um, that we
all, uh, say, this is what we want to live into.
This is the narrative that we want to guide who we are. We have
a wonderful identity statement that says,
we are, uh, disciples of Christ. A movement for

(23:44):
wholeness in a fragmented world as part of the one
body of Christ. We welcome all to the table as
God has welcomed us. But the
narrative that we live into will really
describe what we want people to feel and
experience. No matter where you
go, uh, in our church, uh, different
geographies, different races and ethnicities,

(24:06):
different cultures, urban rule, um, some
places of the US and Canada, more diverse
and some less. No matter how we're different
as congregations, there ought to be some common
elements that one experiences when you come to our
church. And that's what we're trying to get at with the
narrative. And really by having the
experience of talking about the hard stuff and naming the

(24:29):
problems, uh, that's kind of building
capacity for people to participate in this
new general assembly world and general board world,
where we want you to come to the mic, we want you to speak, we want
more people involved. And, uh, finally, the
proclamation project. Uh, we were
awarded, uh, a Lilly grant as part of their compelling
preaching grant project. And,

(24:51):
um, so the Reverend doctor Lehal Moses
is, uh, running that project from
the office of general minister and president. And the goal is
to equip, um, primarily mid
career clergy
who, um, this became clear to us
in the middle of the pandemic. Uh, all of a sudden,
the joke was, everyone's a televangelist now,

(25:13):
right? Everybody's got a broadcast. But there were
people. Um, my seminary education
would never have imagined that I'd be setting up a
camera in my sanctuary, and nobody's there,
and I'm broadcasting. So the way in which
you conduct yourself on screen is very different than in
live. And at a certain point, you really kind of need

(25:34):
to refresh how you approach this craft of
teaching. Some of us are
no longer the young adults, you know, it's hard to.
And so we're preaching to a different generation. The world has
changed. So the goal is to create, uh, preaching
resources, uh, for clergy across
the life of the church. Right now, we have four separate
cohort programs, one that's focusing on

(25:56):
storytelling and other, uh,
types of, uh, expression, one that's working
on media and technology. We have a couple of
groups that are focused on language.
So, um, group of clergy whose first language is
Spanish, another group whose first language is Korean.
And building these. And so this is the first of a three
year program. So these are our first cohorts. We have some

(26:19):
other. These cohorts will meet in person, and some other
cohorts that are meeting online. We've had some
online preaching seminars featuring people
like Leah Shade at Lexington theological Seminary,
who has a great book called Preaching in the Purple
Zone. How do we preach and talk in
this completely polarized society?

(26:39):
Um, we had New testament professor
doctor Stephanie Crowder, who is on
the faculty at Chicago Theological Seminary, helping
people prepare to preach during advent.
Uh, we're going to have a retreat in October in,
um, Arizona, where we're bringing in just really good
preachers to kind of inspire the preachers. All
right. All of those things. And really, for

(27:02):
clergy, that's job one, right? Effectively, like you
said, uh, proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. So
those are the three we call the big three in
our office. And they're all connected, really, to
strengthening, um, both spiritual
connection and practice, but strengthening the
connections, uh, that we have across the
life of the church and helping us to

(27:24):
not be afraid to deal with the hard questions and the.
And the hard problems. If the church doesn't deal with it,
then who can? So that's my real prayers,
is not only connection, but building this capacity
to deal with the tough things as we decide,
um, how we will live as church in a new world.

>> Loren (27:42):
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that building capacity. I hope to
talk more about that here in a few moments. Share, if you would just
about Alix, the kind of denominational data
gathering tool. I know data is all the rage right
now. Some of it, obviously, in mainline
world, is not super optimistic, but share
more, uh, some m lessons that can be gleaned
from the tool.

You have to first know that I spent most of my
it career in data warehousing and
database management, and, uh, my IBM days,
my days. This is the kind of work that I did.
And I spent several years at Anthem Blue Cross and Blue
Shield is the, uh, director of corporate data management,
leading, um, that,

(28:25):
uh, institution. And that was
my career, was understanding data and helping
organizations to understand data and the power
of information. Um,
when I came to be GMP, of course, the yearbook
is our census. We're a
501 organization. We have a group tax exemption.
So one of the important things we have to do is have a

(28:47):
census, right, of who is affiliated with our
church. And even we have a ministry directory in that who
are the recognized, uh,
which allows clergy, uh, other, uh, tax
benefits. And so there might be a few,
um, hard copy reports in that
book, but the book is, you know, yea thick, a small
phone book kind of thing. Uh,

(29:09):
I'm
almost flabbergasted to think about
my initial reaction. There were no
online reporting tools or capabilities
in. People were filling out online
PDF's that were then printed out and really formatted just
so that you could print a book.

>> Loren (29:28):
Yeah, yeah.

Um, most of our other, um, I
even approached the Lilly endowment about
funding something like this, and it turns out
they didn't consider this to be leading edge or.
It's like everybody else. Most of our other mainline,
um, peers had such a
tool. So we've created what we call Alex, short
for Alexander Campbell, one of our. The founders of

(29:52):
our movements. People actually ask me, so what's the Alex? What
does that stand for?

>> Loren (29:56):
Yeah, now, I love that here.

That's actually not an acronym. It's a nickname for
Alexander Campbell. Um, but
congregations use Alex. It's a free web
based tool. They use that to enter in
their attendance and giving data. And all the other questions they
would, uh, answer on the yearbook, they can answer
via Aleks. In addition, week to week, they could
enter weekly giving and weekly attendance, enter, ah,

(30:20):
information about who their pastor is and other things, other
census kind of things, and keep that and update that
week to week, or they can just enter it once a year.
Uh, we now take that data and it moves into,
um, a database from which we're now able to do
reporting. So we're actually getting ready
to work, um, on Aleks 2.0
and change the interface a little bit. Um, but at

(30:42):
this last general board, we were able to do
some nice infographics, uh, some posters
on easels, um, to share with
folks. One of the interesting phenomena that I always
sort of, uh, thought and understood, even
from a back of the envelope kind of calculation, is
that we have about 3000, a little

(31:03):
over 3000 congregations. Only about half of them even report to
the yearbook in 2020.
317 76. That's an easy number
for me to remember. Yeah, 1776 actually
reported the yearbook. Of those, only
about 60% actually give to our
unified giving system, disciples mission fund, or any of
our other special offerings. Another thing that we've

(31:25):
learned is some of our congregations
were ashamed to report because, oh, we're
small. We don't want people to know that we're small. Well,
67% of our churches worship.
They have a larger membership, but they worship about
50% or less. So we're a denomination
that has a lot of smaller congregations.
That's who we are. And we need to understand who we

(31:47):
are as we plan strategies, uh,
for moving forward, uh, and how we serve
those congregations. And really giving congregations
hope that, um, it's all, it's not just
the disciples, as you named, it's all of the
mainline. Even, um, evangelical non
denominational traditions are seeing a
decline. The pew foundation, uh,

(32:11):
has all this interesting data about the nuns,
right, people who don't claim any kind of religious
or spiritual connection. So this is
the world that we live in. And since the pandemic, we
have people who don't even physically want to come to the building
anymore. Uh, they've gotten comfortable watching at
home. You have to get the kids ready. It's easier to

(32:31):
do all these things. So we're, um,
really trying to continue to,
uh, think about even our funding system.
If congregations aren't connected enough and they don't know enough about
what's happening and they're not giving, that's impacting our
funding. So how can we get them better connected? How
can we improve the communication? And, uh, so
region by region, we can sort of slice and dice this

(32:53):
information. Our regional ministers are
really, uh, starting to get excited about the
ability to examine and do analysis,
uh, based on the congregations in their region. We're
working on being able to identify, uh,
churches that are african american,
predominantly hispanic, an asian
little flag there. So the leaders of those ministries

(33:15):
can see those congregations that are
affiliated there, um, looking at the
ministry, uh, directory, the information that our regents
keep on ministers, how can we better
understand who those folks are? What's a good
demographic? Like, right now, we don't even have good information
about age. Um, because some
people felt, oh, it's a violation of privacy to capture somebody's

(33:37):
birth date. Uh, I, right now, couldn't tell you where
the clergy are who are under 40. That's a problem.
And so the other conversations that we have to have, once you have
a question, you have to decide, am I collecting the data?
That will allow us to answer the question. And in some cases,
we're not yet collecting the data that we need. So
it's a constant reiterative loop of saying,

(33:58):
okay, now I have this question. Do I have the data? If not,
then I go get it. So if, uh, I weren't GMP,
I'd be the consultant trying to make this happen for
you. Um, but we've, uh, got some
really brilliant people, uh, working alongside
our team and, uh, trying to get to a point
where we're starting to publish, uh, via
PDF, some statistical summary, uh,

(34:20):
information instead of printing a book.

>> Loren (34:22):
Yeah. And what a wonderful gifting that you bring
to the position, uh, having that background,
um, I know it'll be a benefit, uh,
for clergy and church leaders and
also researchers. I remember
summer or two ago, Ryan Burge, who's done a lot in this
world, was thinking, asking about, hey, where's the data
on the disciples?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Loren (34:45):
I know he'll be happy for one. Um, let's
shift gears here a little bit and kind of talk about just
we're, as we're recording this, what we're in the end
of May, obviously, I'm looking forward to
summer and slowing down with my kids, but
also, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about
the fall and in the states,

(35:06):
at least, uh, what's going to be most
likely a brutal election season.
One of the things that I appreciate about this
denomination is that we are, uh, a
diverse, theologically diverse, uh,
denomination. I say that we're
theologically wide and deep,

(35:29):
so we have a wide theological diversity. We
also have some were
purple denomination in that way, too.
Politically.
Uh, talk to leaders now, if you would, just
about how you'd encourage
them to speak to their congregations during

(35:50):
this upcoming season. I'm thinking especially about the importance
of table in our tradition and the importance of
staying together at table.

Yes, yes. Um, and as you said,
the really, the heart of
disciples theology is the importance
of the covenant that's established at that table
where Jesus invites any who would come, and
that it's not our job to say who gets to be there,
but simply to make room for anyone who wishes to

(36:17):
come. Um, and Barton Stone
and Alexander Campbell, our founders, didn't agree on
everything, but they felt it was the most
important witness that we could make as the church
to walk together even when we disagree.
And that they didn't want to see, uh, fractures
and splits, uh, within the body, because that

(36:37):
just, um, cut away at
the validity, really, of the gospel
that we preach. Um, and that's who
I think we are as disciples. As you say that the
theological diversity is both deep and
wide, um, and being able to stay at the
table. I think one of the. I've been involved in a lot
of, um, um, moral

(37:00):
movements from the poor people's campaign,
um, which is trying to, um, empower
poor and low wealth people to get engaged in the
political system, to an organization
that is a, um, consortium of
mainline and, uh,
evangelical churches called faiths united to
save democracy. Um, and the focus

(37:22):
of all of that work and I think,
uh, what Leah Shade, who talks about preaching in
a purple zone, what anybody, uh, will tell you is
that, first of all, we must ground
this morally and theologically. Right.
Um, the biggest challenge we have is people who think, oh,
don't talk politics in the church. We're not talking partisan

(37:43):
politics. Um, but we have to
recognize that as, um, the imago
dei, that we're created in God's image.
Uh, and everything that God created was good.
Um, the Matthew 25, um,
exhortation to feed the
hungry, uh, clothe the naked, care for the sick,
visit those who are in prison. I would argue that you have to go

(38:05):
beyond that and address the systems that allow people
to be poor, hungry, and,
uh, the horrible situation of our criminal, uh, justice
system that's resulted in mass incarceration.
But we have to focus people on understanding
in the church that as followers of Jesus Christ,
this is our call, our mandate, our mission.

(38:26):
Jesus, when he reads from Luke 418, uh,
says, the spirit of the Lord, he's reading from Isaiah, the spirit of the Lord is
upon me, uh, to set at liberty those who
are captive, to bind up the brokenhearted,
uh, to preach the acceptable, uh, year of the Lord
Jesus own mission. And if you watch and pay
attention to what Jesus did and whom he hung out with,

(38:47):
Jesus, uh, was about the
inclusion of the poor, the inclusion of people on
the margins, uh, justice, um, in
society. So that's the perspective that
we take. And as human beings who have
dignity and worth, part of our
society allows us to express that
humanity through participating in elections and

(39:09):
helping to make the decisions and choices. Just as
we would vote at our general assembly, we have to
vote, uh, in the wider, uh,
uh, elections that govern the societies in
which we live. That's how we have the impact.
And we do that by thinking about,
um, who are the people and what are the

(39:31):
policies that we think will further that.
Now you can make the argument that you have
the moral majority and the religious right
who have for years organized and
put a whole lot of money behind that. But then you
have to ask along some of those policies.
Are those policies reflecting the limitless love

(39:52):
of God? Are they, um. There are a lot of
people, our denomination took a stance
against christian nationalism, um, to
even say that there are some policies and some
approaches that actually aren't
Christian because they deny the humanity of
certain people and that they are actually
harmful to the human dignity and

(40:12):
flourishing of certain people. So it must first of all
be a moral argument and we must
frame it morally and theologically.
Um, and then this, uh, we need to
practice how we have these conversations, right.
We tend not to steer away from them. Right.
We don't want to have the conversation. I would argue,

(40:33):
as I said earlier, we had to build capacity for
being honest and learning how to respect people, even
when we disagree with them. Yelling and
screaming. I can yell and scream with the best of
them. I thank God for the holy spirit. That has
cooled my jets a little bit as I've gotten older.
Um, but we have to respect the fact
my home, uh, pastor, doctor t. Garrett Benjamin,

(40:55):
they used to have a preschool program called the respect
academy, and this was the mantra. We do not have to agree,
but I must respect you and you must respect
me. Uh, and that, to me, is what
staying at the table really is. And
I really do believe that, um,
it is the best way to bear
witness to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Uh,

(41:18):
to say that I'm not here to reject
you, you're welcome at the table. I may
disagree with you to the hilts,
but I'm not going to allow our disagreement
unless you're doing, unless you're causing destruction to
life or limb. Uh, um, you
know, your disagreement doesn't give you
sanction to destroy me. You don't get to do that.

(41:42):
But if we disagree, let's talk
and better understand and figure this out,
because the last thing we want is for people outside
the church to look at the church and say, oh my God,
why would I want to be a part of that Jesus thing
when they can't even hold it together, when they treat each other
that way? Why would I want to be a part of that. If they're

(42:02):
hateful and discriminatory to other
people, why would I want to be a part of that? Um,
and I think it's all wrapped up in the
moral, uh, and the moral
arguments, the teachings of Jesus and the witness
that we say we want to make that witness.
Um, as I say, let's be the church we say we are. We got
to do that work, and we need practice, we need to

(42:24):
learn, we need to build capacity to have those hard
conversations. But we can't walk away from the table,
even if we think the other answer is that. I
don't agree with that. So I'm leaving the table.
That's not helpful, either.

>> Loren (42:38):
Yeah. I'm so glad you've highlighted the importance of
that. Practicing hard conversations
and, uh, writing that down. Can't walk
away from the table.
I, um, know that's been a topic. Go
ahead.

I was going to say, a woman I greatly respected, who's no longer
with us, was the first woman, ah, from
Africa, to be the moderator of the world council of churches,
Doctor Agnes aboum.
Aboum. And she. I saw
this quote, uh, after she passed away, and I thought,
she's saying exactly what I want to say. So I quote her
now all the time. It's okay to disagree. It

(43:15):
is not okay to disengage.
Um, and that, for me, is, you know, staying at the
table is really, uh, the work that
we're called to do as followers
of Jesus Christ, no matter what tradition.
Uh, and I'm so proud to be a part of a church that really
tries to. That kind of defines us.

(43:36):
Right. Um, right. That really defines us. But we have
to do that. We really have to be the church we say we
are and not be caught up in what's swirling
around us, where we think that there's only one way
to be Christian, that's being a certain kind of American,
or to be a good american. That means you have to be a certain kind of
Christian. That's just a lie.

(43:56):
It's not true. It's not faithful
to the scriptures. It's not faithful to
the teachings of Jesus. Uh, and so we have
to find a way to do the hard work.

>> Loren (44:08):
Yeah. I appreciate you sharing all that. I think that's very
helpful. As we think to the future and
look ahead again. My podcast is future
Christian, so we tend to try to do some future
thinking here. One of the things,
uh, that stood out to me from your conversation, or,
excuse me, your presentation, your message
was about the importance of

(44:30):
imagination before implementation.

Uh, mhm.

>> Loren (44:34):
Talk more about that importance.

Yes.
Um, that, uh, comes from
a quote from, ah, an amazing
book that's close to probably 50, probably 50
years old now. Uh, prophetic imagination by Walter
Brueggemann, who is a hebrew bible
scholar. Um, Walter Brueggemann has
in past years come to the general, uh, assembly to preach

(44:59):
these things.

>> Loren (45:00):
You have the book right here to my. Right here.

Yeah, yeah. And, um, he says in that
book that, um, the
prophet is engaged in what he calls futuring
fantasy. And that our
society is equipped to implement
anything. We could implement anything, but
imagine almost nothing. Uh, and
that he talks about the empire, and any

(45:24):
institution that's grounded in a certain kind of
authority is not interested in you thinking
differently about things. Because if you're
imagining, uh, the artist or somebody
who's thinking differently, um, you
can rattle. When we build structures,
sometimes we get really comfortable in how
things are, because as we grow, we learn

(45:46):
how to, uh, navigate and manipulate the
structures to our own benefit. Right, as human
beings. Uh, and that
sometimes creates problems. So the empire doesn't want us
thinking differently. And by empire, those
are those structures that are intended to privilege
only a few people. Um, and
so he talks about the prophet needing to

(46:08):
create or paint the vision of what the alternate
reality would look like. Because if we can at least
help people think, it could be different. It doesn't have to be this
way. And let's imagine together, as
I say, who we must be as a new generation church, uh, for a
new world. We can get there, but we have to first
imagine and be free to think,

(46:28):
um, and not be afraid of what happens when we
change. Not be afraid of what we have to let
go in order to change. And not be
afraid even of the people who will, uh, oppose
it, because we will affect
their particular power platform.

>> Loren (46:44):
Right, right.

Um, and create a
culture where we're always thinking about
what's next and we're always
imagining where we go from here. One of the things
that the disciples did when we created our
denomination, uh, in this process
we called restructure in 1969,
um, the first two general ministers and presidents

(47:07):
regretted they didn't get as far as they
wanted because they had to compromise a lot just to make
the first thing happen. And my hope is with the
changes that we're making with the, uh,
covenant project, with the general board and general assembly,
that we've got to build in a culture
at the church that says we must always be
okay with doing things differently,

(47:30):
we don't have to do it the way they did. In 1969,
years from now, um, I don't want people
to say, oh, that was just a project we did when Terry was
GMP. I want just to look
back and say, oh, we actually are empowered.
Our forebears wanted us to understand
that we're always able to do something

(47:50):
differently. We're always able to imagine and
do church in a way that makes sense for the world we live in
today and not for the world that our grandparents
inhabited. Um, and that's, uh,
to me, the really important thing.
And for those of us who leave, we're not just here to manage
things. We have to create that

(48:10):
capacity so that people can
imagine what, uh, might be
possible. Um, I talked about that in
February of 2020 at general board, and three weeks later, we were
all in lockdown. So the new world, like,
landed in our laps. But the prophet
is engaged in futuring fantasy. And that
fantasy is not silliness.

(48:32):
Uh, it's something that doesn't yet exist. And
we have to help people see and feel and believe,
um, that that future is possible. That's the real work of the
prophet. Because nine times out of ten, that
imagination is intended
to dismantle systems
that keep, uh, people from being able to

(48:52):
flourish. The empire doesn't want you to dismantle the
system, but you have to be able to see it.
Because human beings with the power of God,
we can do anything. I really believe that the resources will
come, but we have to imagine it first and be willing
to let go of what is, uh, in order to move
in that direction.

>> Loren (49:10):
Something else you said, uh, stood out to
me. You talked about the past is
not coming back. And
I've served in older congregations.
Demographically, many of our congregations in
our denomination have been around a long time with older
members, uh, and demographics. How do you

(49:31):
speak to congregants and members
who really, for good reason, appreciate
the past and what was when great ministry
and vitality happened,
uh, while also seeking to help them
build a new identity in our tradition together.

Absolutely. Um, I'm
old enough to know, old enough to
get to the point where I'm even a little nostalgic
about even the music, right? The gospel music
that I listen to as a kid or as a child.
Sometimes I'm listening on the radio, it's uh,
like, ah, uh, that's too, you know, it's too
contemporary. I want the, you know, I want the old stuff. We all have that,

(50:10):
right? Um, I was a
teenager in the seven, in the late seventies.
I listened to seven on seventies, uh, on
seven radio, because that's the music that. The music
of my youth. Right. That speaks to us. So we all have
that. But we have to
remember that what the heart of the church is, is not our
buildings. And it's actually not even our

(50:32):
liturgy.

>> Loren (50:32):
Mhm.

It's not our organizations. It's this community that
we create to both worship and
serve not only each other, but to serve our communities.
So if our communities are changing, in order to
be relevant, we have to change.
Um, we cannot
be, um, so tied to. And this, to me, is

(50:54):
a spiritual problem, too, because if we're not
spiritually, uh, deep and
developing, um, then we see ourselves as just
a club that meets at 1030 on Sunday morning,
and we have coffee afterwards. Well, I can find
coffee a lot of places.

>> Loren (51:10):
Yes. Better coffee, probably.

I can find good music and I can connect with my
friends. You know, I have a 33 year old
son. He's even. I
have to deal with him and how he's thinking about
raising his son in a different way, because he's not
interested in raising his son in the same kind of church that
he grew up in, actually, because it's a different

(51:33):
world, a different adult. You know, we want to
pray with our grandson, do all the kinds of things, but that little
boy is going to be part of a different kind of
spiritual, uh, scenario. And it's
not about the buildings, um, churches that have
sold their buildings and created other more practical
structures. We want beautiful things. Yes.
And in some cases, we can

(51:55):
save and repurpose and create
new ministries inside of those things. But we have to
imagine, to go back to
1980, when we had 100 or
200 people here, and we had all the same things going
on. Denies, uh, the reality of
how, ah, society has changed.
And the numbers are even telling us

(52:16):
that people don't want the kind of
institutional, uh, gatherings that they've
had. I was at the naval base in Newport,
Rhode island, this, uh, past weekend. The naval
chaplaincy school is there, and we have, um,
three chaplains who were there, one of whom is an instructor. The other
is sort of the commanding officer of the chapel. So
he's like the pastor of the local chapel. I preached

(52:38):
on Pentecost Chapel, full of
young people, recent college graduates, who
are in officer candidate school. They're getting ready to start
or in the middle of chaplaincy school,
choosing to be there on Sunday,
fully engaged. Everybody's up singing.
They're with me during the sermon. Young

(52:58):
people are seeking after God. To say that they
don't want anything spiritual is not
true.

>> Loren (53:05):
Yes.

What they're seeking is our
constructs and contacts that speak to
how they engage in the world. Uh, and
we wanted that. When we were young people,
um, I rubbed up against
tradition in my own church as a young person and a young
adult, and so young people are doing that. So

(53:26):
we can never say that we want it the way it was,
because nothing is ever coming back in that way.
And, uh, when people say that, I'm like, oh, you're trying
to restore your club, and you want. You're more concerned about
members and how many buts you have in the seats
than you are about lives that are being changed or even
people don't want to join things. I had, uh, folks

(53:46):
who were very active in all the ministry that my congregation
did. These people were in their seventies. They just didn't want to
join anything. They gave, they were generous
givers. They were there for everything. They just didn't want
to join anything. So what, we're not going to let people
be active in ministry because they don't want to be a
member? Um, these are things

(54:06):
that we have to open ourselves up to
hear from people, why they
don't want to belong to these institutions,
but also recognize that it's not God
who has failed them. And it is not God that they
don't want. It's the institutions, it's the
human structures that we have created that are failing
people. People are seeking, they

(54:29):
just don't want what we've created. And
they need to create, and we need to move with them
to create other ways of being.
Church, um, that matter and
are relevant, uh, to future generations.

>> Loren (54:43):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I, uh, know Ted
Smith and others have some great work on that. It was privileged to have,
uh, him on recently. Uh, last question
before we take a break. I want to give you an opportunity.
This is a podcast. Listen to it. Listened to by a
diversity of audiences. So give
your best. Like why disciples? Rah rah.

(55:04):
Go team speech here, if you would.

I think the beautiful thing about disciples is that we
do recognize that we are
christians, but we're not the only christians. Uh, that
the covenant that Jesus established at the table, that
welcomes all to the table, is one that we must take
seriously. And so, therefore, we allow
for a wide range of theological
diversities. And we do believe that

(55:30):
we, uh, are better as
witnesses when we can walk together, even when we
disagree. Uh, we don't have, uh, a lot
of orthodoxy. We're not anti credal.
We just don't have a creed that would be a test
as to whether or not you belong.

>> Loren (55:45):
Yes.

Uh, we simply confess that Jesus is a Christ, son of the living
God. Proclaim him lord and savior of the world.
And we can wrestle with interpretation of
scripture, but we're the people that want to stay at the table
because we believe that kind of unity is not
unanimity, but it involves and allows more people
to be a part of this thing that we call the body of Christ.
And we take that very seriously. And, uh, we take

(56:09):
ourselves to the table as often as we can, most of us
every week, to remind ourselves of that
covenant that Jesus gives. So you may hear that
disciples have communion all the time. It's not just a
ritual. It's really a reminder,
um, that we really, uh, it's not
our table. We want all who desire to be
there to come.

>> Loren (56:29):
All right, I'm fired up. Hopefully, our audience is
too.

Good, good.

>> Loren (56:34):
Uh, let's take a quick break here, and we'll come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with general minister and President
Reverend Terry Hort Owen. So thank you so much for your
time. I, uh, always tell folks these closing questions.
You can take these as seriously or not as you'd like
to. Uh, this is the question, actually, I'm m most

(56:54):
excited about, because you are, to this point, now, the
highest denominational official I've
talked, uh, to and closest to what we might call a
pope. Uh, so if you were pope
for a day and you can interpret this however you'd like
to, what might you want to do with that day?

It's kind of funny that you say that, because many disciples,
when they're trying to explain who we are and who I am, they will
say, well, she's our pope, GMC is our pope,
but with none of the authority that the pope has.
M. We're very much a covenantal church. So
if I don't have a certain level of direct
operational authority over the whole church, if I did,

(57:35):
we would have some sort of,
um. And I won't call it
catechism because I would
not want, um, there to be sort of
an intentional thing that would be taught, but I would
encourage, uh, and almost require
people to have some form of spiritual
practice in some form of Bible study. I really

(57:56):
feel that, uh, we're so biblically illiterate, and
as christians, that is devastating.
Um, I'm not arguing for a,
ah, dogmatic interpretation of the Bible. I
just want to equip people to even wrestle with it.
We can't talk ecumenically or even from
it on an interfaith basis unless we understand

(58:19):
what our text is saying and what Jesus
taught, what the hebrew prophets say, because
Jesus refers to them, that's what
shaped and grounded him. Without, uh, that
we're spiritually just weak as christians. And so I
would. I would want to find some way to insist
that there be some form of Bible study
and prayer, meditation, some form of

(58:41):
spiritual practice, uh, that starts
with our kids, right. Um, we send our
kids to camp, and that's one of the. Now all cultures
are into the outdoor camp, and there are many years
when black kids couldn't come to disciples
camp, years, uh, back. But that notion
of spiritual formation happening, uh,
within camp, that's really important. So we have to

(59:03):
find some way to do that spiritual
formation that, uh, would involve prayer and Bible
study. Um, that's one of the most important things
that a church can do. Um, and as just
simple believers, we're passing along a great
tradition, right, the stories of Jesus. It's
important, uh, not to get dogmatic or to
hem in anybody's theological imagination,

(59:26):
but there is a tradition of the stories of
Jesus. There is some, uh, and
even as disciples, there's something about us that we
want, that we want to remain
after we're gone. So I think that's probably the thing I would
do. And I would, um,
require people to
do conflict, um,

(59:48):
resolutions.

>> Loren (59:49):
Yeah, that would be good. That would be
good.

Um, because I think we did
a session with a group called crucial conversations
about how to have hard conversations with, uh, the leaders
of our general ministries. And more and more,
I find that my experience in doing some of
that in the corporate world, and also as
a dean of students who often had to have really hard conversations

(01:00:13):
with people and do it from a,
you know, I did need to make people
feel horrible about giving them bad news or trying
to move them to a different, uh, way of
being or a different way of thinking. Um, but
I think we need to learn how to have those hard
conversations and deal with conflict,

(01:00:33):
uh, in healthy ways. And I think clergy would
be well, and congregational leaders,
even lay leaders, um, that's one of the
biggest challenges I see, is that people don't know how to
manage conflict. We think that, oh,
that's the pastor, or
that's, you know, I can't say. And so when we

(01:00:53):
have misconduct or we have problems, nobody
wants to put the person in check who's causing
the problem, and we don't have healthy ways of doing that.
And so we suffer because we don't find a
way to root out and resolve conflict.

>> Loren (01:01:07):
Well, I am comforted to know that
should our autonomy or voting, uh,
structures change, these are very reasonable.
The resolutions you would implement here.
Um, who is a theologian or
historical christian figure you would want to meet or bring back
to life?

>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens (01:01:28):
Oh my, there's so many. But I think I would
really like to meet Howard Thurman.

>> Loren (01:01:34):
Mhm.

Um, he is a self described
mystic. He's the person that
Doctor King carried his
work with him, um,
all the time. And,
um, usually lent
advent. Usually lent. He has some good
advent stuff, too, but I find that when I read

(01:01:57):
him, he is somebody who spoke from who
he was as an individual, as an african american,
but also,
um,
just spoke to that deep inner spiritual need that
people have to connect with God. And I would love
to learn how his life
experience came together in his ministry

(01:02:19):
and in his study. He's just got some profound things.
And I, as a leader, I would just love
to, I'd love to be able to write in a way
that moves people the way he moves.

>> Loren (01:02:30):
Absolutely. Absolutely. What do you
think history will remember from our current time and place?

I think history will remember
how divided this nation was.
M and
sadly, I think
history and our descendants will
ask, why didn't we do more
m to
counteract

(01:03:00):
some of the
injustice and inhumanity that we have
seen perpetrated? Why did we stand
still and, uh, not
do more to insist that,
um, to name the truth
and call a thing what it is? Uh,
and I think the pivot point, we talk

(01:03:22):
about the 1918 spanish flu.
Um, people will remember the
aftermath of the 2020, uh,
pandemic and how it changed all of our lives, and
how we even think about, you know,
airborne respiratory,
uh, viruses and changed the way we work.
It changed. And to have been alive

(01:03:44):
during this time, I, uh, think is, you know,
things really are different. Uh, we
see work differently, we think about our mental health
differently, we think about our physical health differently.
And so I think future
generations will lament the fact
that we didn't do more to address some of the injustice that

(01:04:04):
we have facing us in that we allowed
polarization to dominate.

>> Loren (01:04:09):
Yeah, well, I usually ask the
final question, what do you hope for the future of Christianity? Let me
localize, uh, this a little bit. What do you hope for the future of the
christian church, disciples of Christ?

Um, what I hope is
for a more connected church where
congregations understand they are part of,
we have congregational polity and you're free to call your
own pastor and do all the things, but we are
stronger together. And my prayer is that our
congregations understand that
by being connected there is space for

(01:04:43):
everyone and that we can do more
together. And that connection, uh,
will come, I think, from
deeper spiritual foundations, uh,
and, uh, that the church will prioritize,
uh, and seek to build, uh,
within itself stronger, uh,

(01:05:04):
biblical literacy and more
consistent spiritual practice. And I think those things
will allow us to be more connected. We're not going
to do much good in the world, just as little scattered congregations.
But, uh, when we come together, we
still have the freedom to be who we are at home and address the needs at
home, but then leverage our power

(01:05:25):
and our resources to really do good,
um, around the world, quite
honestly. Um, yeah, well,
I pray for a more connected church.

>> Loren (01:05:34):
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you so
much for your time. I appreciate the conversation
and your insights here. Uh,
uh, share, if you would, just how can people connect with
you, uh, if they want to get to know you better, connect
with the denomination, all those sorts of things.

Sure, sure. Uh, you go to
disciples.org, comma, that's our website. And you go to
disciples.org ogmp. And you'll
get to my office, but you'll also get to all of
the 13 general ministries and our 31
regions. If you're looking for a disciples congregation
in your area, there's even a little search function that allows

(01:06:11):
you to do that. I'm on all the socials
except for TikTok. Um, I'm on
Facebook. I have a personal page, Teresa Horde Owens,
but my public page is Reverend
Terry Hord Owens. I
am on
Instagram, and I'm also on
LinkedIn as, uh, Teresa Horde Owens, but

(01:06:34):
I'm on m. I'm on threads
as Terry Hord Owens, I think is Terry Horde
Owens. And I'm on Twitter, but not on
Twitter's kind of gotten a little bit
more, migrated more over to threads at Terry
Horde Owens. So if you search t horde Owens or Terry Horde
Owens, you will find me on most social media.

>> Loren (01:06:55):
Well, again, thank you so much for your time and conversation.
Uh, I always leave folks with a word of peace, so
may God's peace be with you.

Thank you so much, Lauren. God's peace with you.

>> Paul (01:07:05):
Also, thanks for
joining us on the Future Christian podcast. To learn
more about Lauren or the podcast, visit
future dash christian.com. one
more thing before you go. Do us a favor and
subscribe to the podcast. And if you're feeling
especially generous, leave a review. It

(01:07:25):
really helps us get the word out to more people about the
podcast. The
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
mixed by Danny Burton. And the production support is
provided by Paul Romaglevitt.

Thanks.

>> Paul (01:07:42):
And go in peace.

Um, shake up.

>> Loren (01:07:51):
A pepper.

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