September 8, 2023 • 35 mins
In today's episode, we dive deep into the enigma of death anxiety with esteemed clinical psychologist and author, Matteo Zuccala. We come to see it not just as a daunting aspect of our psyche but also as a natural and, at times, even enriching dimension of our mental fabric. Matteo artfully combines compassion, wit, and unparalleled insights as he sheds light on how we grapple with this potent existential theme. He underscores the pivotal role of human connections, the magic of genuine interactions, and the transformative power of therapeutic guidance.
As our conversation unfolds, we explore the profound connections intertwining death, love, and life. Matteo fervently advocates for deepening our human bonds and for the open exploration of death and its surrounding narratives. Join us for this illuminating conversation, as we traverse the intricate dance of life, love, and mortality.
More information about Matteo:
https://stpsych.com.au/matteo-zuccala/
Matteo's Book Recommendations:
Mortals How the Fear of Death Shaped Human Society
Attached The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find and Keep Love
Attachment in Psychotherapy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And I know I'm going to mess up, so this isn't for
real.
I just want to read through itto get going and will you say
what?
Would you like me to call you?
Matt Theo Doctor?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Zucca, I think.
I think Matteo is fine OK.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
And could you say your last name for me?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Last name is Zucca.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Zucca.
Ok, so here's what I'm planningto say.
Let me know if you wantanything different here.
Matteo Zuccola, is that right?
Zucca Just forgot it, Zucca.
Matteo Zuccola, Thank you Is adistinguished clinical
psychologist with a PhDspecializing in death anxiety,
attachment theory andevolutionary psychology.
(00:43):
Gosh, I love that.
I wish I could say that aboutmyself.
With the trauma informed andrelational therapeutic approach,
he empowers individuals andfamilies to navigate challenges
such as depression, anxiety,grief, trauma and complex family
dynamics.
Matteo's expertise extends toevidence-based treatments like
cognitive behavioral therapy anddialectical behavior therapy.
(01:03):
As a registered clinicalpsychologist, he has contributed
significantly to the fieldthrough his experience and has a
significant publications on thetopic of death anxiety.
So welcome to the show, Matteo.
So great, so glad you're here,Thank you for having me.
Yeah, could you start by givingour audience some insight into
your background and how youbecame interested in death
(01:24):
anxiety?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Sure, so I'm a clinical psychologist by trade
all the way in Australia.
My research, though, as part ofmy postgraduate training, is I
did a PhD as well, so I becameinterested in death anxiety.
Many years ago I started a PhDlooking at the fear of death,
the fear of mortality.
I thought it was veryinteresting thinking about how,
(01:48):
as extensional people there are,fears like that influence human
psychology.
But what I found is that overthe course of my PhD it became
much broader and we started.
There were many unexpectedtwists and turns along the way
and, as you mentioned, so we hadto think about attachment
theory, evolutionary theory.
I thought that made it muchmore interesting as well.
(02:11):
Nowadays I'm largely a clinicalpsychologist by trade, so,
practicing psychotherapist, Iwork with people all across the
lifespan, but largely work withfamilies with very complex and
severe mental health issuesFamilies that I think your
listeners would be interested toknow.
(02:31):
Families when people thinkabout therapists that work with
families, I think we're workingwith children.
Actually, we're working mostlywith people that are in midlife.
We're working with parents whoare really the agents for change
in families, and so I work withpeople all across the different
lifespan in my own work inAustralia.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So fascinating, such great work.
Could you start going a littlebit more in depth about death
anxiety and how that relates toour human experience, especially
for those that are in midlife?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Sure.
So I think there's manydifferent ways to look at death
anxiety.
I think, on the one hand, deathanxiety is what it says.
It is the fear of death, and ahealthy dose of death anxiety is
really normal.
It's really practical.
Actually, I think it does somegood things for us.
It means that we're not jumpingoff cliffs or jumping out of
planes without parachutestructure.
(03:27):
I think the more interestingperspective when to think about
death anxiety is from anevolutionary perspective, so
death anxiety isn't just normalfor us as humans, but I believe
at least that, to some extent,all animals have some level of
death anxiety.
I mean, this is what has drivennatural selection for thousands
upon thousands, upon millionsof years Is that animals have to
(03:52):
have some level of not wantingto die, of wanting to continue
surviving, of wanting to avoidthings that are a threat to
their continued survival, and,if you think about it, I think
that this drive to survive canbe considered death anxiety, for
you would put in human terms, Iguess.
So, when we're talking abouthow does death anxiety affect
humans, I think the first pointis that, if we aren't alone,
(04:15):
that death anxiety affects allanimals.
What makes humans special,though, is the way that we
express our death anxiety, theway that we relate to it, the
way that we manifest it, the waythat we control it, the way
that we try to temperentertainment, which I do think
is quite different to the restof the animal kingdom.
So humans, if you think aboutit, humans are terrorized by the
(04:36):
prospect of death Much morethan other animals.
It sounds weird because we areat the top of the animal kingdom
in some ways, but a singlehuman alone is a very vulnerable
animal.
A single human is much morevulnerable than the vast
majority of animals out in theanimal kingdom.
A single human alone can't fendfor itself.
(04:57):
We can't protect ourselves.
We can barely hunt.
We wouldn't be able to, youknow, we'd barely be able to
build shelters for ourselves,etc.
Etc.
Etc.
And I think that theparticularly interesting point
is the human child, especiallyso if you think about the human
child.
The human child is the mostvulnerable specimen across the
(05:19):
entirety of the planet Earth.
There is no specimen on planetEarth that is as vulnerable as a
human child.
I'm sure many of you listenersin their midlife would have had
children themselves.
When a human child comes out ofthe womb, it can't protect
itself, it can't look afteritself, it can't feed itself, it
can't even move around.
Evidence shows that you canbarely see a couple of
(05:41):
centimetres past its face.
So humans, and human children,are a very vulnerable species.
We have to, we have had to comeup with some way of managing
our survival, of managing ourdeath anxiety.
That's different to otheranimals.
And this is this is where Ithink, where things get
interesting, because yeah youknow.
(06:03):
You ask what is death anxiety?
I think the more interestingquestion is how do we manage our
death anxiety?
Death anxiety is normal, we allhave it.
How we manage our death anxietyas humans is the more
interesting question.
And how we manage our deathanxiety is by relying on others.
So, as humans, throughoutancestral history, we couldn't
do things ourselves, so weformed tribes, we formed
(06:24):
cooperative groups, families,social units, etc.
And we looked after us eachother.
And, in particular, youmentioned that I've a PhD in
attachment theory.
The reason why my PhD straightinto attachment theory is that
you know you've, we're facedwith the theoretical Conundrum
of how does a human child faceits own death anxiety?
(06:45):
Because a human child, more sothan any other animal in the
animal kingdom, is faced withdeath every day.
No, it's I, anybody that's hada kid.
I don't have kids, but I'veheard from people that have kids
I work for lots of parents thatsay every day is a struggle
just to keep this kid alive.
It feels, after the kid bethrowing themselves off ledgers,
(07:06):
they'd be eating things theyshouldn't be eating.
The human child manages itsdeath anxiety by forming bonds
with its parents.
It's quite ingenious tactic,actually, that it manages,
manages this as existentialthreat by saying to its parents
obviously you know not saying,but you know metaphorically
(07:29):
saying to his parents you do itfor me, I can't survive myself,
I need you to do it for me.
And this is an incredibletactic and in my opinion, this
is one of one of the mostimportant reasons why humans see
that the top of the animalkingdom, because what this means
is that we get to have childrenthat are incredibly vulnerable.
(07:50):
Yeah, decades and decades.
Nowadays kids don't move outtheir parents home, so that 20
or 30 years old, but what, whatwe get to do during that time is
that we get to spend timegrowing, we spend time
socializing, learning to such anextent that no other animal can
afford to do that.
Every other animal is soencumbered by the threat of
(08:10):
death, by their own deathanxiety, that they have to grow
up with the age of five or sixor seven, even the great ages
and stuff like that.
Yeah whereas we get to have thisbeautiful time period of growth
when we're younger, because werely on our parents to manage
our death anxiety and manage ourdeath for us, and, of course, I
don't imagine there's manychildren listening to this
(08:31):
podcast.
But what's important to note isthat the this process where we
rely on other people To supportus, to help us survive, this
process remains relevantthroughout our entire lifespan.
So that's what my research waslooking at this.
What other research has shownthat?
Wow, these attachment processes, these attachment bonds that
(08:52):
facilitate survival, that temperis Accidental, anxiety about
dying these psychologicalprocesses remain all the way
until the time that we die.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Really, Wow, that is such a fascinating way to look
at it.
I've never heard it put thatway, where we put attachment
theory and evolutionarypsychology and death and
existential psychology together.
That is incredibly interesting.
I'm guessing in your work yousee a lot of coping strategies
from that death anxiety.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow people kind of cope with
(09:25):
that in a healthy and unhealthyway?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, sure, I want to go back because I think I
didn't answer your question,because you asked how does death
anxiety affect people inmidlife?
Do you mind if I talk to?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
that You're right.
I was so fascinated that Ididn't.
I lost track of the entirefocus of the podcast.
So please do talk about midlifeand death anxiety.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
It's my fault, I just started on a ranch, but I think
that's a really importantquestion as well, because you
know, I was just talking aboutthe importance of the attachment
bond with parents.
Right, and An important part ofmidlife is a lot of people in
midlife are parents, and so thisis one way that death anxiety
affects us in midlife is thatwe're not.
(10:06):
It's not about tempering ourown death anxiety.
We're tempering the anxiety ofthe children that are relying on
us as well.
But I think what's interesting,kyle, was I'd be interested to
hear Do you think people thatare younger or people that are
older have more death anxiety ormore fee for death?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
What do you think the answer is oh, that is a good
question.
Common wisdom would say thatpeople that are older May have
more because they're in thattime where they're aging and it
may be bringing about kind ofthose physical Signals of death,
and we think of teenagers asjust kind of living in the
moment.
So that would be myconventional wisdom, but I'm
(10:44):
fearing that there might besomething else I'm missing.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
That is conventional wisdom, and there's a reason
that's conventional wisdom,because you think about other
things that we're scared of.
If you're scared of spiders andyou're about to walk into a
room of the spider, you'refearful of it.
If you're scared of flying andyou're sitting in the airplane
seat and you're about to takeoff, you're scared.
But for some reason, theresearch shows that People the
(11:09):
elderly people, so people thatare on the verge of death, that
have lived the longest are aboutto die, that are facing death.
They're the least scared ofdeath out of all of us.
That actually there's a gradualtrend downwards from about the
age of 20 is when you are themost fearful of death, and it
slowly goes down over time, withone exception.
This is an interestingexception for your listeners
(11:30):
that there's one exception.
So this trend, that it trendsdownwards from the age of 20 and
so you're least fearful aboutdeath when you're in your old
age, but for women in theirmidlife, at around the exact age
of about 50 or 51, there is aspike in death anxiety, and
their death anxiety spikes tothe level that it was at when
(11:51):
they were 20.
Wow, and this is reallyinteresting because from a
conventional wisdom perspective,it's very hard to explain this.
But if I can draw us back to aDarwinian perspective, something
else happens for women at theage of 50, and what that is is
menopause.
And menopause is a reallyinteresting phenomenon in the
natural sciences because it'sonly us and killer whales have
(12:14):
menopause.
No other animals have menopause, and so there has to have been
a very unique and interestingreason for us to have this
biological phenomenon that is soincredibly impactful.
Yes, and the reason that hasbeen hypothesized I think is
really interesting and linksback to the idea of death
anxiety Is the idea that humans,much more so than other animals
(12:37):
, like I talked about, for relyon being looked after and
looking after others.
So humans rely ongrandparenting, and so the
theory is that menopause comesaround because it's essentially
an indicator to say look, thetime of your life when you
should be having kids is over.
You can't have kids anymore.
Now start focusing on yourgrant, on your grandkids.
(12:59):
Now it's time to look afteryour grandkids and also to help
your kids look after their kidsas well.
And I think this tells ussomething about death anxiety
the fact that death anxiety goesup the exact same age that
menopause happens for women andthis doesn't happen in men.
We don't see this phenomenon.
I think what this tells usabout death anxiety set when we
(13:20):
feel fearful of death, when weanxious about death, this is
telling us there's a biologicalimperative or a human imperative
.
I should say that we need tomeet.
So this makes sense if you, ifyou broaden the scope out to
what I said before, that I dothings I decide.
When we're young, we have tonsof imperatives that we need to
(13:42):
meet.
We have entire lives ahead of,ahead of us that we need to feel
From a very biologicalperspective with meant to have
kids, look after our kids andsee them be raised and then have
grandkids.
From a human perspective, wehave other stuff we have to
establish ourselves, we have toestablish yourself in social
hierarchy, we have to figure outwho we are, we have to
(14:03):
contribute to society in someway, to culture, etc.
So I think the the notion ofdeath anxiety is very relevant
to your listeners because Forthe especially for the women,
your female listeners they'regonna be experienced, or the
research says that they'reprobably gonna be experiencing
(14:24):
it all over again, just likethey do when they were younger,
although fortunately for them,it will start to go down again
once again.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Okay, I have to do a cut.
This is incredibly fascinating.
This is incredible.
So it's just really reallybeyond mind blowing, beyond what
I expected.
So, thank you.
Oh gosh, I've lost track.
Okay, let's get back on track.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Sorry, sorry.
I kind of answered one questionwhen answering the other and I
think it's great.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
You know, I think it's kind of good to have some
humaneness in there too.
We can talk about how we wantto handle that later in the
final edit, but that is reallyinteresting.
So I think I'll come back tothat and kind of build on that.
So menopause and aging relateto death anxiety.
Are there other factors thatcontribute to having a higher
(15:18):
awareness of death anxiety?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yes.
So there's a number ofdifferent factors.
So the stuff you would expect Imean the research is ongoing,
this relatively new field, soHaving experiences with death,
of course you know they findthat if you have a couple of
experience with experiences withdeath You're more fearful about
death.
But if you have lots and lotsof experiences with death for
example, if you're a sky jumperand you've jumped out of the
(15:42):
plane 50 times become lessfearful.
I think the one that's perhapsmost interesting to me is in my
own research.
Part of what I was looking atwas the relationship between
social connectedness and deathanxiety and what I found is that
if you feel socially isolated,if you have less, if you feel
like your sense of connection toothers is lower, you don't have
(16:05):
many close connections in yourlife, then you actually more
fearful of death.
And again, that makes sense fromthe perspective we're talking
about, that we manage, wetemporary as extents angst
through our connections toothers, and so if you don't feel
connected, then you're going tobe more fearful death and that
makes sense.
You know, if you look at JaneGoodall, of course, incredible
(16:28):
researcher, and what I thoughtreally stuck out of her the
original book that she wrote thechimpanzees of Gombe, where she
follows the chimpanzees aroundGombe in Africa incredible book.
What she points out in thatbook is that the chimpanzees
that ostracize from their tribes, that are rejected for their
tribe for whatever reason, theydon't survive for very long,
(16:48):
even the ones that are fullygrown adult males.
Give them a couple weeks.
They can't survive with a tribe.
And I would say humansthroughout our ancestral history
have Undergone the sameevolutionary processes, even to
an even greater extent,chimpanzees able to survive a
couple weeks.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I reckon we go a couple days and we'd be gone as
you know, I was surprised bythat too, because a lot of times
I think we think of people thatare socially isolated as more
at risk for suicide.
Does that, how does thatrelationship work?
I don't know, I'm just kind ofthrowing a curveball at you
(17:24):
there, mateo, but you know, ifthey have a higher awareness of
death anxiety, does that, isthere a relationship there with
suicide, suicide, social, socialisolation, you know?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
If I can be completely honest, the problem
of suicide is a great mystery,for death anxiety research is up
until now, I think we don'thave a clear understanding of
how Death anxiety relates topeople that try to attempt
suicide or do attempt suicide ordo Do suicide.
I think part of the reason isthe reasons why people in their
(18:05):
lives or in their own lives arevaried, and so I don't think we
can attribute people endingtheir lives to whether they're
fearful of death or not.
I think.
To even consider ending yourlife.
You obviously have to besuffering to such an immense
extent that, regardless ofwhether you feel for death or
not, you'd see that as the onlyway out.
Yeah, that makes that makessense.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Let's let's now talk about some of the coping
strategies that people employ.
I'm sure they.
There are negative, unhealthycoping strategies, and there are
also healthy ways to adapt.
Can you start talking a littlebit about that, please?
Sure, so.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I think some people that are very fearful of death.
Yeah they can go a bit over thetop.
I think that's when what you'retalking about me talk about
negative coping strategies.
So I think, we've all metsomeone that can be so fearful
of dying that they're so overcontrolled in their lives that
(19:05):
they might as well not be living.
It's ironic, and so you know,you can see, there's various
types of research that show that, for example, death anxiety is
related to obsessive compulsivedisorder, that people so scared
of dying that they're constantlychecking the stove, they're
constantly checking the locks inthe doors, etc.
They're so anxious that itcompletely takes over their
(19:25):
lives.
And of course, there's a greatirony there that in their fear
of death, they're not living.
Yeah, and so?
Well then, how should you copewith death?
Well, firstly, it's not mydecision to tell you everyone's
different.
That's the problem with being apsychologist, it's very hard to
give vague advice.
I think you know the firstpiece of advice is, if you're
(19:47):
really grappling with this, thatyou should do your best to see
a psychologist or apsychotherapist if you can.
But if I had to give vagueadvice, what I want people to
think about is again what doesit mean when we have these
sensations, when we have theseemotions, when we're grappling
with existential angst?
(20:08):
What are these feelings oremotions trying to tell us?
And I think I alluded to thisbefore that all of us are
fearful of death to an extent.
But if we are overly fearful ofdeath, if it's something that's
really on our minds, it'sprobably trying to tell us
something.
And so what might it be tryingto tell us?
(20:28):
Well, maybe we don't feel veryconnected to the people around
us, maybe we do feel sociallyisolated, and so maybe it's a
sign that we should be trying tofoster our human connections,
our social connections.
I think you know, in some waysit's ironic, because I talked
about earlier that when we'rekids we had faced the terror of
(20:53):
death much more so than when weare adults, but also we're much
better at managing that whenwe're kids as well that we turn
to our parents, we turn to olderadults.
We have these biologicalinstincts that drive us towards
the adults around us, but whenwe're fearful of anything and I
think in some ways we need torelearn those instincts when
(21:14):
we're adults I think in manyways society and culture in this
day and age has driven us intosocial isolation.
It's alienated us in so manydifferent ways and we need to be
turning to each other ratherthan turning to consumerism,
rather than turning to drugs,rather than turning to TV,
rather than turning to all thatrubbish that doesn't actually
(21:35):
help.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, that is a fascinating way to look at it.
It seems to me, too, that it isa catalyst for clarifying
what's important or what youwant to do with your days.
Do you see that as well in yourclients and your research?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Absolutely.
I think you've touched on agreat point.
That again, what is deathanxiety?
If we overcome with the dreadof our impending death,
regardless of what age we're at?
I think another thing that itmight be trying to tell us is
that, up until this point, wedon't feel like we've lived life
according to the values and themeaning that we want to live
(22:17):
life to, and so I think, when weexperience this death, anxiety
is trying to drive us to livelife in a more fulfilling way,
live life according to ourvalues.
I think one of the best ways youcan try and cope with the idea
that you're going to die becauseI'm sorry to break it to you,
but you are, we are Is this ideathat perhaps you want to leave
(22:39):
something behind even after youpass.
And so, if you're in combat withdeath anxiety, you need to
think about you know, one day,biologically, I'm going to die.
You know, socially, how can Ilive on after my death?
What can I leave behind for thegenerations after me, whether
that's passing on lessons,ideals, values to your children
(23:01):
or your grandchildren, orwhether it's making a more
meaningful contribution to thesociety that's given so much to
you All.
Human history is a history ofhumans giving to each other.
Now, at the moment, we areallowed to make this podcast
today because of thousands ofyears of humans working their
butts off to try and make surethat the next generation has a
(23:24):
better life than they do, and soI think it's both our duty but
also our great honor to try andensure that generations after us
have a better life than we do,and I think that, to bring it
back to death anxiety, it's veryhard to be fearful of death
when you feel like you've livedlife to its fullest and that
(23:46):
you're leaving behind somethingafter you pass.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, that is incredibly well said and it's
incredible.
It's really impactful to methat the themes that keep coming
up across these episodes areconfronting reality, having
self-compassion for yourreaction to that reality and
(24:11):
confronting it and changing itand intentionally changing it is
something meaningful andpositive.
I wonder, I'm thinking, abouthow that might work in your work
with families intergenerational.
I have kids, I have kids thatare adolescents and emerging
adults and, as we discussed this, I think it's healthy to
(24:36):
wrestle with that, make that anopen discussion when those fears
come about, so we can adapt andconfront them in a
psychologically healthy way.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow midlifers might approach
this across generations?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I think it's so astute that you mentioned my own
work working with families,because I think a lot of therapy
with families is just puttingwords to the unspoken.
It's just giving peoplepermission to talk about things
that they haven't felt they havehad permission to talk about
and really, in some ways it'sincredibly difficult job.
In other ways it's the easiestjob in the world because you
(25:16):
don't do any of the workyourself.
You're just asking people totalk about things that have been
on their minds for a long time.
So if we think about death, Ithink or going back to death.
Death, of course, is anincredibly touchy subject for
some people.
I think it's very hard for somepeople to talk about death.
But let's think about thegenerational differences that we
(25:37):
talked about earlier Children,not children.
I should take that back.
Children don't reallyunderstand the concept of death
fully, but young adults,emerging adults, are the ones
that are most fearful of death.
They're the ones that find ithardest to speak about death.
Parents are probably somewherein the middle, and then
grandparents.
I don't know what yourexperience has been like, but I
(25:57):
think a lot of young adults aresurprised by how openly and
honestly their grandparents wantto talk about death and want to
plan for their own death andwant to plan their funeral and
stuff like that.
It's incredibly hard for kids orchildren and grandchildren to
talk to their grandparents aboutdeath, but I think if these
intergenerational discussionsare going to happen, we have to
(26:20):
recognize that death meansdifferent things for different
people.
So people in midlife have torecognize that for their kids or
for the younger generation,death means missing out on a lot
, whereas being in midlife,death is missing out on a lot.
Sure, but you've also done alot as well, and so it's easier
for you to grapple with that.
I think as well for the youngergenerations, they need to
(26:43):
recognize that for the oldergenerations, talking about death
isn't what it is for them, forthe younger people, that
actually they want to talk aboutdeath, they want to bring light
to this, they want to plan forit, they want to feel like they
know what's going to happen andthat people are going to feel
okay when they pass as well.
I hope I answered your questionthere.
I'm not sure you definitely did.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
That's what I was shooting for in terms of having
things, having this subject beopen, normalized and allowing it
to be again confronting thereality of it and using it in a
positive way.
I think some people may have,for example, parents that, like
you said, I think older adults alot of times have cope, but
(27:26):
I've seen two older adults thatare still wrestling with this
and it's something that it's atopic that's avoided and I think
that can be difficult.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, I think another issue is that sometimes we
think we're talking about deathor we're thinking about death or
we're not thinking about death,or talking about death, we're
talking about loss, and loss isdifferent to death, and loss is
incredibly difficult to thinkabout sometimes, or to process
or to manage, but it's somethingelse that needs to be talked
about.
But we have to make sure thatwe're talking about the right
(28:00):
thing, that, yes, sometimes wecan talk about death, but often
what's stopping us talking aboutdeath is the fear of loss, the
fear of losing those that welove, the fear of being lost to
ourselves, to those that we loveas well.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
That makes perfect sense.
That's a really helpful way tolook at it.
So thank you for that.
You know, as we kind of.
As, before we move on to thenext section, I think it's
important to talk aboutprofessional help.
You've touched on that before,but I love it if you would kind
of share with us some of thosecues that we may need
professional help, that othersaround us, either younger or
(28:35):
older, might need to seeprofessional help about this.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So tell us a little bit about that please.
That's a great question becauseI think, like I mentioned before
, you know, just because you'refearful of death doesn't mean
that you need professional help.
All of us are fearful of deathto some extent, regardless of
whether you think you are or not.
We all are.
We're all humans.
If you weren't, you wouldn't bealive right now.
(29:01):
We're all just animals drivenby natural selection and
evolution.
We are fearful of death to someextent.
But if you fear of death gets inthe way of you living, then of
course that's when you need toseek help.
So if it causes interference inyour everyday activities, if it
stops you doing the things that, if you're important to you,
(29:24):
the things that you want to do,if it's causing a lot of
distress, then you do need toconsider professional help.
And you also need to considerwhat type of professional help
as well.
So I'm a psychologist, so I canjust prove my own profession.
So I think psychotherapy isgreat.
I think everyone should be inpsychotherapy, regardless of
(29:44):
whether they're thinking abouttheir own death or not.
But you know, you might begoing to psychotherapy thinking
that you need help with deathanxiety, but you should be open
to talking about other things aswell, because your therapist
will guide you through theprocess of what death actually
means to you and what'sunderlying this view, what's
making it worse and perhaps youknow most people might have.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I just want to completely endorse that view too
.
I'm 1,000% pro psychotherapy.
Something I just shared withMateo, but I haven't shared with
my audience, is that I'mchipping away part time at my
clinical mental health licensuretoo, because I wholeheartedly
believe in that.
It's been a big part of kind ofthe background of this podcast.
(30:30):
So as we kind of move towardsthe closing section of this
interview, mateo, how would youboil it down?
What advice, what encouragementdo you have for people as it
relates to this topic Deathanxiety, what are some key
takeaways you would want us tohave?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I think the most important takeaway is that
you're not alone.
Again, all of us are fearful ofdeath to some extent.
All of us don't want to thinkabout it.
All of us don't want to talkabout it.
Your dog and your cat don'twant to think about it either.
I don't know how they wouldthink about it or what that
looks like there we are, dog andcat dreams about running away
from people and falling offcliffs and stuff like that, but
(31:13):
that's us being fearful of death.
You're not in this alone, butwhat I would encourage people to
think about, as with any, asexistential angst, since we're
talking about death today.
What is this emotion, what isthis experience?
What is this suffering tryingto tell us?
What is it trying to make us do?
We are all driven by ouremotions.
(31:35):
Our emotions were designed bythousands of years of evolution
to encourage us to do thingsthat are good for us.
To bring that into a more human, complex domain.
Things that are good for usaren't just eating, surviving,
reproducing.
The things that are good for usare living, fulfilling lives,
(31:56):
meaningful lives, connectedlives, lives where you feel like
you have some social agency orsociety and culture around you,
but you feel like you can makesome contribution to society and
do something that you can leavebehind as well, well said.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
That's something I'll put on repeat and try to
integrate into my liferepeatedly, so I appreciate that
very much.
Now, this has been afascinating conversation and I'm
sure people want to learn more.
Are there resources that youcould recommend for people that
want to explore this topic moredeeply?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yes, I think there's some great resources on death
and death anxiety.
There's a book that came outrecently called Mortality.
There's also a greatpsychotherapist named Irvin
Yalom that writes these amazingcase studies, and within those
case studies, these existentialthemes come up quite a lot, and
he's a brilliant writer, so nowmany of his books are on my
(32:54):
bookshelf.
Again, I want to encouragepeople, though, to think about
what death means to us as humans, compared to just this abstract
concept of death.
What it means to us is loss.
What it means is love,connection.
This is how we manage deathanxiety.
So don't just read about death,read about attachment theory.
There's brilliant books andresources out there about
(33:14):
attachment.
There's a brilliant book calledDetached, which is really good,
and then, finally I mean Idon't want to sound too
facetious, but I do think thatyou will learn much more about
this, about death, about loss,about love, what it means to
love, what it means to be loved,what it means to fear dying,
(33:35):
what it means to be human.
You learn a lot more about thisfrom the people around you than
you will through any book orself-help resource or any
internet webinar or whatever.
So now, if you really want tolearn about death anxiety.
If you really want to talkabout death, you want to really
learn about love and talk aboutlove.
Call your mom, talk to yourkids, visit your grandma, talk
(33:59):
to your work colleagues about itwhy not?
And, of course, listen to theGen X Mindscape podcast, because
that's where you learn the mostabout life.
The rest of you have to dogreat.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
All right, Sled shirt , t-shirt and everything else
coming your way.
Mattel, Big shipping cost downto sitting there.
Oh, this has been just afascinating way to look at life
and to grow and to think aboutreally the important things of
(34:32):
living fully.
And so, Mattel, I can't thankyou enough.
Thank you so much for your timeand your expertise and for
joining us on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Thank you, kyle, it's been a great experience.
And I know I'm going to mess up, so this isn't for
real.
I just want to read through itto get going and will you say
what?
Would you like me to call you?
Matt Theo Doctor?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Zucca, I think.
I think Matteo is fine OK.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
And could you say your last name for me?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Last name is Zucca.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Zucca.
Ok, so here's what I'm planningto say.
Let me know if you wantanything different here.
Matteo Zuccola, is that right?
Zucca Just forgot it, Zucca.
Matteo Zuccola, Thank you Is adistinguished clinical
psychologist with a PhDspecializing in death anxiety,
attachment theory andevolutionary psychology.
(00:43):
Gosh, I love that.
I wish I could say that aboutmyself.
With the trauma informed andrelational therapeutic approach,
he empowers individuals andfamilies to navigate challenges
such as depression, anxiety,grief, trauma and complex family
dynamics.
Matteo's expertise extends toevidence-based treatments like
cognitive behavioral therapy anddialectical behavior therapy.
(01:03):
As a registered clinicalpsychologist, he has contributed
significantly to the fieldthrough his experience and has a
significant publications on thetopic of death anxiety.
So welcome to the show, Matteo.
So great, so glad you're here,Thank you for having me.
Yeah, could you start by givingour audience some insight into
your background and how youbecame interested in death
(01:24):
anxiety?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Sure, so I'm a clinical psychologist by trade
all the way in Australia.
My research, though, as part ofmy postgraduate training, is I
did a PhD as well, so I becameinterested in death anxiety.
Many years ago I started a PhDlooking at the fear of death,
the fear of mortality.
I thought it was veryinteresting thinking about how,
(01:48):
as extensional people there are,fears like that influence human
psychology.
But what I found is that overthe course of my PhD it became
much broader and we started.
There were many unexpectedtwists and turns along the way
and, as you mentioned, so we hadto think about attachment
theory, evolutionary theory.
I thought that made it muchmore interesting as well.
(02:11):
Nowadays I'm largely a clinicalpsychologist by trade, so,
practicing psychotherapist, Iwork with people all across the
lifespan, but largely work withfamilies with very complex and
severe mental health issuesFamilies that I think your
listeners would be interested toknow.
(02:31):
Families when people thinkabout therapists that work with
families, I think we're workingwith children.
Actually, we're working mostlywith people that are in midlife.
We're working with parents whoare really the agents for change
in families, and so I work withpeople all across the different
lifespan in my own work inAustralia.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So fascinating, such great work.
Could you start going a littlebit more in depth about death
anxiety and how that relates toour human experience, especially
for those that are in midlife?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Sure.
So I think there's manydifferent ways to look at death
anxiety.
I think, on the one hand, deathanxiety is what it says.
It is the fear of death, and ahealthy dose of death anxiety is
really normal.
It's really practical.
Actually, I think it does somegood things for us.
It means that we're not jumpingoff cliffs or jumping out of
planes without parachutestructure.
(03:27):
I think the more interestingperspective when to think about
death anxiety is from anevolutionary perspective, so
death anxiety isn't just normalfor us as humans, but I believe
at least that, to some extent,all animals have some level of
death anxiety.
I mean, this is what has drivennatural selection for thousands
upon thousands, upon millionsof years Is that animals have to
(03:52):
have some level of not wantingto die, of wanting to continue
surviving, of wanting to avoidthings that are a threat to
their continued survival, and,if you think about it, I think
that this drive to survive canbe considered death anxiety, for
you would put in human terms, Iguess.
So, when we're talking abouthow does death anxiety affect
humans, I think the first pointis that, if we aren't alone,
(04:15):
that death anxiety affects allanimals.
What makes humans special,though, is the way that we
express our death anxiety, theway that we relate to it, the
way that we manifest it, the waythat we control it, the way
that we try to temperentertainment, which I do think
is quite different to the restof the animal kingdom.
So humans, if you think aboutit, humans are terrorized by the
(04:36):
prospect of death Much morethan other animals.
It sounds weird because we areat the top of the animal kingdom
in some ways, but a singlehuman alone is a very vulnerable
animal.
A single human is much morevulnerable than the vast
majority of animals out in theanimal kingdom.
A single human alone can't fendfor itself.
(04:57):
We can't protect ourselves.
We can barely hunt.
We wouldn't be able to, youknow, we'd barely be able to
build shelters for ourselves,etc.
Etc.
Etc.
And I think that theparticularly interesting point
is the human child, especiallyso if you think about the human
child.
The human child is the mostvulnerable specimen across the
(05:19):
entirety of the planet Earth.
There is no specimen on planetEarth that is as vulnerable as a
human child.
I'm sure many of you listenersin their midlife would have had
children themselves.
When a human child comes out ofthe womb, it can't protect
itself, it can't look afteritself, it can't feed itself, it
can't even move around.
Evidence shows that you canbarely see a couple of
(05:41):
centimetres past its face.
So humans, and human children,are a very vulnerable species.
We have to, we have had to comeup with some way of managing
our survival, of managing ourdeath anxiety.
That's different to otheranimals.
And this is this is where Ithink, where things get
interesting, because yeah youknow.
(06:03):
You ask what is death anxiety?
I think the more interestingquestion is how do we manage our
death anxiety?
Death anxiety is normal, we allhave it.
How we manage our death anxietyas humans is the more
interesting question.
And how we manage our deathanxiety is by relying on others.
So, as humans, throughoutancestral history, we couldn't
do things ourselves, so weformed tribes, we formed
(06:24):
cooperative groups, families,social units, etc.
And we looked after us eachother.
And, in particular, youmentioned that I've a PhD in
attachment theory.
The reason why my PhD straightinto attachment theory is that
you know you've, we're facedwith the theoretical Conundrum
of how does a human child faceits own death anxiety?
(06:45):
Because a human child, more sothan any other animal in the
animal kingdom, is faced withdeath every day.
No, it's I, anybody that's hada kid.
I don't have kids, but I'veheard from people that have kids
I work for lots of parents thatsay every day is a struggle
just to keep this kid alive.
It feels, after the kid bethrowing themselves off ledgers,
(07:06):
they'd be eating things theyshouldn't be eating.
The human child manages itsdeath anxiety by forming bonds
with its parents.
It's quite ingenious tactic,actually, that it manages,
manages this as existentialthreat by saying to its parents
obviously you know not saying,but you know metaphorically
(07:29):
saying to his parents you do itfor me, I can't survive myself,
I need you to do it for me.
And this is an incredibletactic and in my opinion, this
is one of one of the mostimportant reasons why humans see
that the top of the animalkingdom, because what this means
is that we get to have childrenthat are incredibly vulnerable.
(07:50):
Yeah, decades and decades.
Nowadays kids don't move outtheir parents home, so that 20
or 30 years old, but what, whatwe get to do during that time is
that we get to spend timegrowing, we spend time
socializing, learning to such anextent that no other animal can
afford to do that.
Every other animal is soencumbered by the threat of
(08:10):
death, by their own deathanxiety, that they have to grow
up with the age of five or sixor seven, even the great ages
and stuff like that.
Yeah whereas we get to have thisbeautiful time period of growth
when we're younger, because werely on our parents to manage
our death anxiety and manage ourdeath for us, and, of course, I
don't imagine there's manychildren listening to this
(08:31):
podcast.
But what's important to note isthat the this process where we
rely on other people To supportus, to help us survive, this
process remains relevantthroughout our entire lifespan.
So that's what my research waslooking at this.
What other research has shownthat?
Wow, these attachment processes, these attachment bonds that
(08:52):
facilitate survival, that temperis Accidental, anxiety about
dying these psychologicalprocesses remain all the way
until the time that we die.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Really, Wow, that is such a fascinating way to look
at it.
I've never heard it put thatway, where we put attachment
theory and evolutionarypsychology and death and
existential psychology together.
That is incredibly interesting.
I'm guessing in your work yousee a lot of coping strategies
from that death anxiety.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow people kind of cope with
(09:25):
that in a healthy and unhealthyway?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, sure, I want to go back because I think I
didn't answer your question,because you asked how does death
anxiety affect people inmidlife?
Do you mind if I talk to?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
that You're right.
I was so fascinated that Ididn't.
I lost track of the entirefocus of the podcast.
So please do talk about midlifeand death anxiety.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
It's my fault, I just started on a ranch, but I think
that's a really importantquestion as well, because you
know, I was just talking aboutthe importance of the attachment
bond with parents.
Right, and An important part ofmidlife is a lot of people in
midlife are parents, and so thisis one way that death anxiety
affects us in midlife is thatwe're not.
(10:06):
It's not about tempering ourown death anxiety.
We're tempering the anxiety ofthe children that are relying on
us as well.
But I think what's interesting,kyle, was I'd be interested to
hear Do you think people thatare younger or people that are
older have more death anxiety ormore fee for death?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
What do you think the answer is oh, that is a good
question.
Common wisdom would say thatpeople that are older May have
more because they're in thattime where they're aging and it
may be bringing about kind ofthose physical Signals of death,
and we think of teenagers asjust kind of living in the
moment.
So that would be myconventional wisdom, but I'm
(10:44):
fearing that there might besomething else I'm missing.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
That is conventional wisdom, and there's a reason
that's conventional wisdom,because you think about other
things that we're scared of.
If you're scared of spiders andyou're about to walk into a
room of the spider, you'refearful of it.
If you're scared of flying andyou're sitting in the airplane
seat and you're about to takeoff, you're scared.
But for some reason, theresearch shows that People the
(11:09):
elderly people, so people thatare on the verge of death, that
have lived the longest are aboutto die, that are facing death.
They're the least scared ofdeath out of all of us.
That actually there's a gradualtrend downwards from about the
age of 20 is when you are themost fearful of death, and it
slowly goes down over time, withone exception.
This is an interestingexception for your listeners
(11:30):
that there's one exception.
So this trend, that it trendsdownwards from the age of 20 and
so you're least fearful aboutdeath when you're in your old
age, but for women in theirmidlife, at around the exact age
of about 50 or 51, there is aspike in death anxiety, and
their death anxiety spikes tothe level that it was at when
(11:51):
they were 20.
Wow, and this is reallyinteresting because from a
conventional wisdom perspective,it's very hard to explain this.
But if I can draw us back to aDarwinian perspective, something
else happens for women at theage of 50, and what that is is
menopause.
And menopause is a reallyinteresting phenomenon in the
natural sciences because it'sonly us and killer whales have
(12:14):
menopause.
No other animals have menopause, and so there has to have been
a very unique and interestingreason for us to have this
biological phenomenon that is soincredibly impactful.
Yes, and the reason that hasbeen hypothesized I think is
really interesting and linksback to the idea of death
anxiety Is the idea that humans,much more so than other animals
(12:37):
, like I talked about, for relyon being looked after and
looking after others.
So humans rely ongrandparenting, and so the
theory is that menopause comesaround because it's essentially
an indicator to say look, thetime of your life when you
should be having kids is over.
You can't have kids anymore.
Now start focusing on yourgrant, on your grandkids.
(12:59):
Now it's time to look afteryour grandkids and also to help
your kids look after their kidsas well.
And I think this tells ussomething about death anxiety
the fact that death anxiety goesup the exact same age that
menopause happens for women andthis doesn't happen in men.
We don't see this phenomenon.
I think what this tells usabout death anxiety set when we
(13:20):
feel fearful of death, when weanxious about death, this is
telling us there's a biologicalimperative or a human imperative
.
I should say that we need tomeet.
So this makes sense if you, ifyou broaden the scope out to
what I said before, that I dothings I decide.
When we're young, we have tonsof imperatives that we need to
(13:42):
meet.
We have entire lives ahead of,ahead of us that we need to feel
From a very biologicalperspective with meant to have
kids, look after our kids andsee them be raised and then have
grandkids.
From a human perspective, wehave other stuff we have to
establish ourselves, we have toestablish yourself in social
hierarchy, we have to figure outwho we are, we have to
(14:03):
contribute to society in someway, to culture, etc.
So I think the the notion ofdeath anxiety is very relevant
to your listeners because Forthe especially for the women,
your female listeners they'regonna be experienced, or the
research says that they'reprobably gonna be experiencing
(14:24):
it all over again, just likethey do when they were younger,
although fortunately for them,it will start to go down again
once again.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Okay, I have to do a cut.
This is incredibly fascinating.
This is incredible.
So it's just really reallybeyond mind blowing, beyond what
I expected.
So, thank you.
Oh gosh, I've lost track.
Okay, let's get back on track.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Sorry, sorry.
I kind of answered one questionwhen answering the other and I
think it's great.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
You know, I think it's kind of good to have some
humaneness in there too.
We can talk about how we wantto handle that later in the
final edit, but that is reallyinteresting.
So I think I'll come back tothat and kind of build on that.
So menopause and aging relateto death anxiety.
Are there other factors thatcontribute to having a higher
(15:18):
awareness of death anxiety?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yes.
So there's a number ofdifferent factors.
So the stuff you would expect Imean the research is ongoing,
this relatively new field, soHaving experiences with death,
of course you know they findthat if you have a couple of
experience with experiences withdeath You're more fearful about
death.
But if you have lots and lotsof experiences with death for
example, if you're a sky jumperand you've jumped out of the
(15:42):
plane 50 times become lessfearful.
I think the one that's perhapsmost interesting to me is in my
own research.
Part of what I was looking atwas the relationship between
social connectedness and deathanxiety and what I found is that
if you feel socially isolated,if you have less, if you feel
like your sense of connection toothers is lower, you don't have
(16:05):
many close connections in yourlife, then you actually more
fearful of death.
And again, that makes sense fromthe perspective we're talking
about, that we manage, wetemporary as extents angst
through our connections toothers, and so if you don't feel
connected, then you're going tobe more fearful death and that
makes sense.
You know, if you look at JaneGoodall, of course, incredible
(16:28):
researcher, and what I thoughtreally stuck out of her the
original book that she wrote thechimpanzees of Gombe, where she
follows the chimpanzees aroundGombe in Africa incredible book.
What she points out in thatbook is that the chimpanzees
that ostracize from their tribes, that are rejected for their
tribe for whatever reason, theydon't survive for very long,
(16:48):
even the ones that are fullygrown adult males.
Give them a couple weeks.
They can't survive with a tribe.
And I would say humansthroughout our ancestral history
have Undergone the sameevolutionary processes, even to
an even greater extent,chimpanzees able to survive a
couple weeks.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I reckon we go a couple days and we'd be gone as
you know, I was surprised bythat too, because a lot of times
I think we think of people thatare socially isolated as more
at risk for suicide.
Does that, how does thatrelationship work?
I don't know, I'm just kind ofthrowing a curveball at you
(17:24):
there, mateo, but you know, ifthey have a higher awareness of
death anxiety, does that, isthere a relationship there with
suicide, suicide, social, socialisolation, you know?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
If I can be completely honest, the problem
of suicide is a great mystery,for death anxiety research is up
until now, I think we don'thave a clear understanding of
how Death anxiety relates topeople that try to attempt
suicide or do attempt suicide ordo Do suicide.
I think part of the reason isthe reasons why people in their
(18:05):
lives or in their own lives arevaried, and so I don't think we
can attribute people endingtheir lives to whether they're
fearful of death or not.
I think.
To even consider ending yourlife.
You obviously have to besuffering to such an immense
extent that, regardless ofwhether you feel for death or
not, you'd see that as the onlyway out.
Yeah, that makes that makessense.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Let's let's now talk about some of the coping
strategies that people employ.
I'm sure they.
There are negative, unhealthycoping strategies, and there are
also healthy ways to adapt.
Can you start talking a littlebit about that, please?
Sure, so.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I think some people that are very fearful of death.
Yeah they can go a bit over thetop.
I think that's when what you'retalking about me talk about
negative coping strategies.
So I think, we've all metsomeone that can be so fearful
of dying that they're so overcontrolled in their lives that
(19:05):
they might as well not be living.
It's ironic, and so you know,you can see, there's various
types of research that show that, for example, death anxiety is
related to obsessive compulsivedisorder, that people so scared
of dying that they're constantlychecking the stove, they're
constantly checking the locks inthe doors, etc.
They're so anxious that itcompletely takes over their
(19:25):
lives.
And of course, there's a greatirony there that in their fear
of death, they're not living.
Yeah, and so?
Well then, how should you copewith death?
Well, firstly, it's not mydecision to tell you everyone's
different.
That's the problem with being apsychologist, it's very hard to
give vague advice.
I think you know the firstpiece of advice is, if you're
(19:47):
really grappling with this, thatyou should do your best to see
a psychologist or apsychotherapist if you can.
But if I had to give vagueadvice, what I want people to
think about is again what doesit mean when we have these
sensations, when we have theseemotions, when we're grappling
with existential angst?
(20:08):
What are these feelings oremotions trying to tell us?
And I think I alluded to thisbefore that all of us are
fearful of death to an extent.
But if we are overly fearful ofdeath, if it's something that's
really on our minds, it'sprobably trying to tell us
something.
And so what might it be tryingto tell us?
(20:28):
Well, maybe we don't feel veryconnected to the people around
us, maybe we do feel sociallyisolated, and so maybe it's a
sign that we should be trying tofoster our human connections,
our social connections.
I think you know, in some waysit's ironic, because I talked
about earlier that when we'rekids we had faced the terror of
(20:53):
death much more so than when weare adults, but also we're much
better at managing that whenwe're kids as well that we turn
to our parents, we turn to olderadults.
We have these biologicalinstincts that drive us towards
the adults around us, but whenwe're fearful of anything and I
think in some ways we need torelearn those instincts when
(21:14):
we're adults I think in manyways society and culture in this
day and age has driven us intosocial isolation.
It's alienated us in so manydifferent ways and we need to be
turning to each other ratherthan turning to consumerism,
rather than turning to drugs,rather than turning to TV,
rather than turning to all thatrubbish that doesn't actually
(21:35):
help.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, that is a fascinating way to look at it.
It seems to me, too, that it isa catalyst for clarifying
what's important or what youwant to do with your days.
Do you see that as well in yourclients and your research?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Absolutely.
I think you've touched on agreat point.
That again, what is deathanxiety?
If we overcome with the dreadof our impending death,
regardless of what age we're at?
I think another thing that itmight be trying to tell us is
that, up until this point, wedon't feel like we've lived life
according to the values and themeaning that we want to live
(22:17):
life to, and so I think, when weexperience this death, anxiety
is trying to drive us to livelife in a more fulfilling way,
live life according to ourvalues.
I think one of the best ways youcan try and cope with the idea
that you're going to die becauseI'm sorry to break it to you,
but you are, we are Is this ideathat perhaps you want to leave
(22:39):
something behind even after youpass.
And so, if you're in combat withdeath anxiety, you need to
think about you know, one day,biologically, I'm going to die.
You know, socially, how can Ilive on after my death?
What can I leave behind for thegenerations after me, whether
that's passing on lessons,ideals, values to your children
(23:01):
or your grandchildren, orwhether it's making a more
meaningful contribution to thesociety that's given so much to
you All.
Human history is a history ofhumans giving to each other.
Now, at the moment, we areallowed to make this podcast
today because of thousands ofyears of humans working their
butts off to try and make surethat the next generation has a
(23:24):
better life than they do, and soI think it's both our duty but
also our great honor to try andensure that generations after us
have a better life than we do,and I think that, to bring it
back to death anxiety, it's veryhard to be fearful of death
when you feel like you've livedlife to its fullest and that
(23:46):
you're leaving behind somethingafter you pass.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, that is incredibly well said and it's
incredible.
It's really impactful to methat the themes that keep coming
up across these episodes areconfronting reality, having
self-compassion for yourreaction to that reality and
(24:11):
confronting it and changing itand intentionally changing it is
something meaningful andpositive.
I wonder, I'm thinking, abouthow that might work in your work
with families intergenerational.
I have kids, I have kids thatare adolescents and emerging
adults and, as we discussed this, I think it's healthy to
(24:36):
wrestle with that, make that anopen discussion when those fears
come about, so we can adapt andconfront them in a
psychologically healthy way.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow midlifers might approach
this across generations?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I think it's so astute that you mentioned my own
work working with families,because I think a lot of therapy
with families is just puttingwords to the unspoken.
It's just giving peoplepermission to talk about things
that they haven't felt they havehad permission to talk about
and really, in some ways it'sincredibly difficult job.
In other ways it's the easiestjob in the world because you
(25:16):
don't do any of the workyourself.
You're just asking people totalk about things that have been
on their minds for a long time.
So if we think about death, Ithink or going back to death.
Death, of course, is anincredibly touchy subject for
some people.
I think it's very hard for somepeople to talk about death.
But let's think about thegenerational differences that we
(25:37):
talked about earlier Children,not children.
I should take that back.
Children don't reallyunderstand the concept of death
fully, but young adults,emerging adults, are the ones
that are most fearful of death.
They're the ones that find ithardest to speak about death.
Parents are probably somewherein the middle, and then
grandparents.
I don't know what yourexperience has been like, but I
(25:57):
think a lot of young adults aresurprised by how openly and
honestly their grandparents wantto talk about death and want to
plan for their own death andwant to plan their funeral and
stuff like that.
It's incredibly hard for kids orchildren and grandchildren to
talk to their grandparents aboutdeath, but I think if these
intergenerational discussionsare going to happen, we have to
(26:20):
recognize that death meansdifferent things for different
people.
So people in midlife have torecognize that for their kids or
for the younger generation,death means missing out on a lot
, whereas being in midlife,death is missing out on a lot.
Sure, but you've also done alot as well, and so it's easier
for you to grapple with that.
I think as well for the youngergenerations, they need to
(26:43):
recognize that for the oldergenerations, talking about death
isn't what it is for them, forthe younger people, that
actually they want to talk aboutdeath, they want to bring light
to this, they want to plan forit, they want to feel like they
know what's going to happen andthat people are going to feel
okay when they pass as well.
I hope I answered your questionthere.
I'm not sure you definitely did.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
That's what I was shooting for in terms of having
things, having this subject beopen, normalized and allowing it
to be again confronting thereality of it and using it in a
positive way.
I think some people may have,for example, parents that, like
you said, I think older adults alot of times have cope, but
(27:26):
I've seen two older adults thatare still wrestling with this
and it's something that it's atopic that's avoided and I think
that can be difficult.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, I think another issue is that sometimes we
think we're talking about deathor we're thinking about death or
we're not thinking about death,or talking about death, we're
talking about loss, and loss isdifferent to death, and loss is
incredibly difficult to thinkabout sometimes, or to process
or to manage, but it's somethingelse that needs to be talked
about.
But we have to make sure thatwe're talking about the right
(28:00):
thing, that, yes, sometimes wecan talk about death, but often
what's stopping us talking aboutdeath is the fear of loss, the
fear of losing those that welove, the fear of being lost to
ourselves, to those that we loveas well.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
That makes perfect sense.
That's a really helpful way tolook at it.
So thank you for that.
You know, as we kind of.
As, before we move on to thenext section, I think it's
important to talk aboutprofessional help.
You've touched on that before,but I love it if you would kind
of share with us some of thosecues that we may need
professional help, that othersaround us, either younger or
(28:35):
older, might need to seeprofessional help about this.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So tell us a little bit about that please.
That's a great question becauseI think, like I mentioned before
, you know, just because you'refearful of death doesn't mean
that you need professional help.
All of us are fearful of deathto some extent, regardless of
whether you think you are or not.
We all are.
We're all humans.
If you weren't, you wouldn't bealive right now.
(29:01):
We're all just animals drivenby natural selection and
evolution.
We are fearful of death to someextent.
But if you fear of death gets inthe way of you living, then of
course that's when you need toseek help.
So if it causes interference inyour everyday activities, if it
stops you doing the things that, if you're important to you,
(29:24):
the things that you want to do,if it's causing a lot of
distress, then you do need toconsider professional help.
And you also need to considerwhat type of professional help
as well.
So I'm a psychologist, so I canjust prove my own profession.
So I think psychotherapy isgreat.
I think everyone should be inpsychotherapy, regardless of
(29:44):
whether they're thinking abouttheir own death or not.
But you know, you might begoing to psychotherapy thinking
that you need help with deathanxiety, but you should be open
to talking about other things aswell, because your therapist
will guide you through theprocess of what death actually
means to you and what'sunderlying this view, what's
making it worse and perhaps youknow most people might have.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I just want to completely endorse that view too
.
I'm 1,000% pro psychotherapy.
Something I just shared withMateo, but I haven't shared with
my audience, is that I'mchipping away part time at my
clinical mental health licensuretoo, because I wholeheartedly
believe in that.
It's been a big part of kind ofthe background of this podcast.
(30:30):
So as we kind of move towardsthe closing section of this
interview, mateo, how would youboil it down?
What advice, what encouragementdo you have for people as it
relates to this topic Deathanxiety, what are some key
takeaways you would want us tohave?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I think the most important takeaway is that
you're not alone.
Again, all of us are fearful ofdeath to some extent.
All of us don't want to thinkabout it.
All of us don't want to talkabout it.
Your dog and your cat don'twant to think about it either.
I don't know how they wouldthink about it or what that
looks like there we are, dog andcat dreams about running away
from people and falling offcliffs and stuff like that, but
(31:13):
that's us being fearful of death.
You're not in this alone, butwhat I would encourage people to
think about, as with any, asexistential angst, since we're
talking about death today.
What is this emotion, what isthis experience?
What is this suffering tryingto tell us?
What is it trying to make us do?
We are all driven by ouremotions.
(31:35):
Our emotions were designed bythousands of years of evolution
to encourage us to do thingsthat are good for us.
To bring that into a more human, complex domain.
Things that are good for usaren't just eating, surviving,
reproducing.
The things that are good for usare living, fulfilling lives,
(31:56):
meaningful lives, connectedlives, lives where you feel like
you have some social agency orsociety and culture around you,
but you feel like you can makesome contribution to society and
do something that you can leavebehind as well, well said.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
That's something I'll put on repeat and try to
integrate into my liferepeatedly, so I appreciate that
very much.
Now, this has been afascinating conversation and I'm
sure people want to learn more.
Are there resources that youcould recommend for people that
want to explore this topic moredeeply?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yes, I think there's some great resources on death
and death anxiety.
There's a book that came outrecently called Mortality.
There's also a greatpsychotherapist named Irvin
Yalom that writes these amazingcase studies, and within those
case studies, these existentialthemes come up quite a lot, and
he's a brilliant writer, so nowmany of his books are on my
(32:54):
bookshelf.
Again, I want to encouragepeople, though, to think about
what death means to us as humans, compared to just this abstract
concept of death.
What it means to us is loss.
What it means is love,connection.
This is how we manage deathanxiety.
So don't just read about death,read about attachment theory.
There's brilliant books andresources out there about
(33:14):
attachment.
There's a brilliant book calledDetached, which is really good,
and then, finally I mean Idon't want to sound too
facetious, but I do think thatyou will learn much more about
this, about death, about loss,about love, what it means to
love, what it means to be loved,what it means to fear dying,
(33:35):
what it means to be human.
You learn a lot more about thisfrom the people around you than
you will through any book orself-help resource or any
internet webinar or whatever.
So now, if you really want tolearn about death anxiety.
If you really want to talkabout death, you want to really
learn about love and talk aboutlove.
Call your mom, talk to yourkids, visit your grandma, talk
(33:59):
to your work colleagues about itwhy not?
And, of course, listen to theGen X Mindscape podcast, because
that's where you learn the mostabout life.
The rest of you have to dogreat.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
All right, Sled shirt , t-shirt and everything else
coming your way.
Mattel, Big shipping cost downto sitting there.
Oh, this has been just afascinating way to look at life
and to grow and to think aboutreally the important things of
(34:32):
living fully.
And so, Mattel, I can't thankyou enough.
Thank you so much for your timeand your expertise and for
joining us on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Thank you, kyle, it's been a great experience.
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