Good Company - Season 1: Episode 1 - Building Better Workplaces

Building Better Workplaces: Leadership for a Post-Pandemic World

Welcome to Good Company, the podcast redefining leadership to create workplaces where people thrive! In this debut episode, hosts Drew Dudley and Brett Elmgren share their vision: inspiring leaders to transform culture and drive meaningful change. With personal stories and fresh perspectives, they explore the challenges facing today’s organizations. The discussion examines the pandemic’s lasting impact on workplace culture, raising questions about resilience, recognition, and the disconnect between leadership efforts and employee well-being. What makes people feel strong at work? Are organizations doing enough to address collective trauma and foster recovery?

Drew and Brett offer thoughtful insights on building environments where employees feel valued, autonomous, and connected. With practical strategies like improving communication and redefining recognition, this episode offers actionable ideas to help leaders build better workplaces. Listen in for a candid, thought-provoking conversation that will leave you inspired to create positive change!

Key Points From This Episode:

• An introduction to hosts, Drew and Brett, and the origins of this podcast. [0:01:11]

• What people would like to improve when it comes to their organizational cultures. [0:04:34]

• Examining the pandemic as a collective trauma and how businesses can address it. [0:06:55]

• Reflections on whether the pandemic is over in the context of work. [0:11:52]

• Unpacking the nature of happiness and what brings people joy at work. [0:14:11]

• The range of pandemic workplace experiences from positive to traumatic. [0:25:18]

• Debating a company’s responsibility for employee mental health. [0:31:23]

• Key areas where people are feeling weak and unable to access resilience. [0:41:06]

• Evidence-based approaches for creating safer more resilient work environments. [0:47:17]

• Effective strategies for showing recognition and appreciation in the workplace. [0:51:51]

• Final insights and data concerning today’s topics. [01:06:30]

Quotes:

“I don't think human beings – were meant to live in perpetual states of uncertainty. And that, to me, is what's lingering [from the pandemic] – the uncertainty persists when the pandemic has stopped.” — Brett Elmgren [0:12:12]

“I'm wondering if we're asking the right questions of employees when we say, ‘Are you happy?’ As opposed to asking them, ‘When do you feel happiest?’” — Drew Dudley [0:19:52]

“Strength is a prerequisite for happiness.” — Drew Dudley [0:23:31]

“70% of employees who are heavily monitored report higher levels of work-related stress compared to people that aren’t.” — Drew Dudley [0:45:30]

“She goes, ‘I learned a long time ago, this simple practice where whenever something negative happens, there's really only one question, that's effective. What did I learn from that experience? That's it.’” — Brett Elmgren [0:50:46]

“94% of employees would stay at a company longer if it invested in their career development.” — Drew Dudley [01:07:43]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

The Power of Habit

Supercommunicators

Drew Dudley | Everyday Leadership

Brett Elmgren | Axom Leadership

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey everybody, welcome to Good Company, a podcast about creating better places to work.

(00:10):
My name is Drew Dudley of Day One Leadership.
And I'm Brett Elmgren with Axom Leadership.
Thrilled to be here with you, Drew.
Yeah, we decided that we were tired of talking on our own on Zoom calls and over lunches
about leadership.
And so we said, hey, we should start a podcast.
And that's what we've done.
And it's choppy and it's messy, but it's been an absolute blast.

(00:31):
And we're excited to introduce it to you.
We actually pushed record on the first episode, not thinking we would ever see the light of
day.
And here we are, we kind of thought, you know what, actually, maybe there's something
valuable in there.
And then the remaining episodes became a little bit more structured.
But all within the broader objective of helping build better places to work by you being inspired
to activate your leadership.

(00:51):
So with that, Drew, anything before we jump into our first episode?
My friends, we're not perfect, work isn't perfect, but we really hope that you enjoy,
you have a good time and that you chime in with what you think and what you'd love to
hear.
But for now, thrilled to kick off the first season of Good Company.
Brett, what on your end made you want to be a part of this new voyage on which we are

(01:17):
embarking?
I did not want to be a part of this.
I was coerced, but no, I think we share a passion.
I don't want to speak for you on obviously inspiring leaders to, as you said, create
better companies to create positive change.
So I'm always in if we're talking about that.
But a specific story just recently, I was meeting with a chief people officer at an
organization and on a coaching call, she actually started crying on the call and said, where

(01:41):
does HR go and HR needs support because I spent so much time being HR business partner
of the CEO and the executive team and constantly working on all these cultural issues.
And that's kind of in my background is working with people like that in those roles and working
internally with HR teams.
And I just think if we produce something here that's a benefit to leaders everywhere, that's
also content that I think helps the people that are closest to the fire, those that lead

(02:05):
the people and culture practices of organizations.
And so hopefully we can weave in some stories around those experiences that ultimately feel
supportive for people leading these strategies within these organizations.
But enough about that.
I'm curious about you.
I mean, this has been your jam for a long time.
And so, yeah, why are you excited to engage in this podcast called Good Company?

(02:26):
Honestly, very similar story to what you just said.
We were working with a client and somebody commented that I wish there was a community
of practice for those of us in HR.
And I know that when we started talking about doing this, the idea wasn't that we're doing
a podcast for people in HR, but that if we can find a way for those like the way you
put it closest to the fire, I think that's a big piece.

(02:48):
And honestly, man, I had a podcast seven years ago where I got to talk to really smart people
about leadership in general.
But I think, you know, you and I are both on this now is that there just seems to be
such a focus on culture now, especially coming out of the pandemic, that we are all redesigning
what it means to work.

(03:09):
And to me, that means there's an opportunity like never before in history do I think that
the entire workforce stopped for a second.
And what got me is that that means that there was this impossible thing that everyone had
been hoping for, which was a chance to just start over, to strip down to the very basics
and build these great cultures like all of us pull out built to last by Collins and just

(03:29):
start building our companies.
And no one really did it.
We pivoted, we changed so that we could deal with the pandemic.
But then I think we were in such a hurry to come out of it that maybe we lost this opportunity
to say what are the things within a culture that can change.
So I'm excited to look at that as we come out of a completely redefining period in work
history.
What can we do to talk about how to make it a better place to work?

(03:51):
And honestly, I just like the idea of being useful.
If we can do anything that makes it useful for people I'm in.
We'll start with the first question here, which really focuses on what can be improved.
And then we'll get into a little bit of what's stopping that improvement and hopefully get
to something really hopeful and practical at the end around what specifically those
that are overcoming those challenges doing to make a positive impact in their organizations.

(04:15):
But let's start with the first question here.
From our unique vantage points, what are we hearing from leaders in today's world of work
that could be improved specific to people and culture?
So maybe over to you to begin with that one.
What are you hearing from the people that you interact with around what they would like
to see improved as it relates to their organizational cultures?
I had a really interesting conversation after a speech recently.

(04:37):
And just so people know, I don't want us to dwell on it too much, but I'm a professional
speaker and author on the topic of leadership.
And I go and I speak about how we can create processes to engage in a type of leadership
I believe in, which is the kind that creates these powerful moments of interpersonal impact.
So if anybody's wondering when Brett says from your angle where you're coming from,

(04:58):
that's where I am.
Maybe Brett, before we go any farther, like not to throw the brakes on anything here,
we probably should have done this first.
But tell a little bit about your background on what, you know, when you talk about our
unique vantage points, we should probably give people a little outline on what that
is.
Yeah.
Well, my first job was as a gas attendant.
I called myself a petroleum distribution engineer to sound more impactful, but I don't think
we're going to go back that far.
I spent 15 years working internally in organizations in progressive levels of leadership within

(05:23):
the HR practice and most specifically led talent development and culture initiatives.
And that was kind of my life's work and got to a place of saying I'd love to do that
for more than one organization.
I'd love to do that with lots of organizations because I just find people and culture fascinating.
And there's so many similarities and yet so many differences.

(05:45):
So I founded Axum Leadership three years ago, I guess now it's been.
And that's what I do is I work as a consultant within organizations typically to help align
people and culture with business strategy and really try to embed myself almost within
the organization to find out what's going on.
And so my primary points of contact tend to be chief people officers and then CEOs as

(06:06):
well for those companies.
So come with kind of more of that internal practice and try to embed myself within, but
now go in and out of organizations based on their specific objectives.
So I don't know, I blacked out.
Did any of that make sense, Drew?
I'm not sure.
It did.
I got to tell you, man, honestly, I always joke that that's kind of what was appealing
about working on this together is that you're the relationship guy and I'm the one night

(06:27):
stand guy.
I show up and the thing is that means I get to work with more people, but it's not nearly
as deep a relationship as you do.
For me, I'm out there about gathering stories, about gathering insights as best I can.
And you actually engage with people on a more longer term piece.
So the idea is that the two of us can share broadly from a couple different perspectives

(06:47):
on where things go, because I'm really going to lean on you to talk about, OK, from the
in-depth analysis you do in cultures, what do you see?
And I can talk about the broader themes that we sort of approach, because I was at a speech
and a guy came up to me and he said, there's something you said in your presentation that
I found really interesting.
And I referred to the pandemic as trauma, as opposed to a difficult time or these changing

(07:11):
and challenging.
Remember all the acronyms we had, or not acronyms, but all the euphemisms we had for these troubling
times, these different times, and we don't have to say it anymore.
But I called it trauma, because I feel that trauma is significantly more impactful than
going through something difficult.
Trauma embeds itself.

(07:32):
And the individual that I was talking to, who was a senior vice president at the company,
commented that I don't think any of us businesses have done a good enough job addressing what
happened as a trauma and something that really embedded itself on people, because trauma
takes time to overcome and it doesn't happen quickly and it has triggers that can take

(07:55):
you back to that really difficult time.
So one of the things, and I welcome your thoughts on this, is that organizations have not really
given people the chance to come back together and say, this is how this impacted me.
And I think part of it, and you can tell me, do you think it's better off to do that?
Or is it better off to just move on?

(08:15):
Because I know a lot of people say, I don't want to say pandemic again, but this individual
said we haven't dealt with the trauma.
And if you leave untreated trauma, we know what happens in lives and it happens in organizations
too.
Here's my question to you.
Should we be talking about the pandemic or should we not be talking about the pandemic
anymore?
I think what I'm hearing from executive leaders is they don't want to talk about it anymore

(08:36):
because it happened, we need to move on and they have such a bias for action.
And I guess I have a really unsatisfying answer is I don't know what's actually best because
I think that lacks validation and I think you're right, it minimizes the impact of what's
happened in the course of just trying to plow through to get back to business.

(08:56):
And there's likely to be a resistance that comes from that that makes things a lot worse.
And at the same time, just continually illuminating negativity into an organization I think is
really crippling.
And I'll share an example of this where it really took me back as I was having a beer
with the CEO about two months ago, I want to say.
And I just asked him, how are things going?
If you just had to summarize, he's a new CEO as well, like your first year and how you

(09:20):
would describe culture in your company right now, what would you say?
And he took a big swig.
And then he's like, honestly, I would say everything's amazing and nobody's happy.
And of course, that's not the answer he would give his organization.
But I thought that's pretty interesting.
And I was like, tell me a little bit more about that.

(09:40):
He's like, I just I can never say this to anybody else, but like, I feel we are investing
more than we ever have in psychological safety, mental health supports.
We're constantly listening to our employees through engagement surveys and all of this
rapid feedback loop that they have investing big time in leadership development.
This is an organization that absolutely is truthfully doing those things.

(10:03):
And still nobody's happy.
And there was this edge to his comment that like, so I'm kind of sick.
He was almost seduced by wanting to just I don't want to talk about how hard things have
been anymore.
Maybe we're just making the problem worse by talking about this.
And then he caught his breath and we had a good, honest conversation.
But we also know we need to validate people's experience.

(10:24):
My biggest thing, and I don't know if this is true, I don't think people are out of it
yet to actually be able to evaluate the impact of the trauma, because when you're in it,
you don't really realize the impact it's having.
It's only until you come out of it, have an opportunity for reflection and look back.
I think the impacts are still lingering, which is why we're feeling that way.

(10:45):
And I totally appreciate why leaders want to just not even ignore it, but move past
it so they can get back to business because they're kind of sick of it.
Or they're just like, at some point we have to move.
But I don't know what we do with that, because I think we're still in it.
I totally appreciate that people want to move past it.
And yet, even if we try to address it, I don't know if we know the impact right now enough

(11:05):
to even be able to comment on what we actually even need, because we probably don't know.
I don't know.
How do you see it?
It's interesting.
I think it'd be interesting for us to go out and find a trauma expert, and not just in
the workplace.
Because I wonder if there are workplace trauma experts.
But it'd be interesting to bring someone in and ask, what are the strategies to deal with
trauma in the early stages to get people starting to grasp it, and talk about how we could apply

(11:31):
those ideas to the workplace?
And actually say to someone, if we're going to look at the pandemic as a traumatic event,
whether we're still in it or not, I think it would be interesting to say, OK, what are
the steps you take with someone who's been traumatized to try to get them to deal with
it, and talk about how we can transfer it from the individual to the organization?
Because I agree with you.
I guess I never really thought about whether it's over or not.

(11:53):
You think the pandemic's over in the context of work?
Yeah.
I've never thought about that, too.
No.
And yes.
I guess here's the part that lingers for me.
I think the actual pandemic, we're living with COVID, right?
Whatever.
So that we've normalized.
What I don't think human beings absolutely were meant to do was live in perpetual states

(12:16):
of uncertainty.
And that, to me, is what's lingering, is the impact of the perpetual state of uncertainty
and never being able to feel like there's a solid plan that we're going to hold to,
and what's tomorrow going to bring, and what's the new change of policy and direction.
The impact of that, to me, is so significant.
And so to me, the uncertainty persists when the pandemic has stopped.

(12:41):
That's my immediate reaction to that.
And I think that's really dangerous.
But what do you think?
Yeah.
I think it would be really interesting to find out what the best plan is when moving
forward and ask somebody.
I'm so intrigued with that right now.
And before we do our next episode, I'll see if I can reach out to somebody and whether
they come on and talk to us or not, or I come back and report what they were saying.

(13:01):
We can talk about how that would fit into a strategy within it.
Do I think the pandemic's over?
I think the lockdown is over.
I think the long-term effects are...
And if anybody's listening to this, I hope that maybe we've given...
I guess I'm just pretending, man.
Where you've given voice to something that maybe you've been wondering.
And I ask, and I'd love to hear some comments when we post this.

(13:25):
Is the pandemic over?
How is it over?
Is it not?
Because I think you were right, man.
I think you nailed it.
It isn't, and it isn't.
The complete life-changing portion of it at the time is over.
The long-term tail effects of it, long COVID is not just a thing for people.
Long COVID is a thing for organizations.

(13:45):
And maybe we need to dive a little bit more and talk to some people about how so and what
approaches they've chosen to take on it.
And that's a great next step.
My friend, so my answer to that first question, I picked a specific example instead of the
broader one.
This idea that the pandemic has trauma and the possibility we haven't really dealt with
it.

(14:06):
What are you hearing, my friend, that are the big challenges or even one in particular
that might be interesting to talk about?
Yeah, I guess, I mean, honestly, I think that that CEO's summarization is pretty indicative
of what I hear more broadly without people maybe calling it out that directly is it seems
like nobody's happy.
And I could be wrong on that, but it just doesn't feel like there's a natural, it's

(14:30):
very rare.
And I talk to a lot of people too, maybe not nearly as many touch points as you do, but
it is very rare that I meet with someone these days that's just optimistic and full of joy
and having a lot of fun within their work.
And maybe it's always been that way.
And I have a bias because I just love being positive and optimistic, but I feel like it's
gotten worse.
And to me, that's a huge problem because I think we are investing so much in making organizations

(14:54):
better.
So something's broken if we're making more investments and getting smarter and yet people
seem to be less happy.
And I don't even know if that's true, but purely from my own exposure, it seems like
more people have less joy in their work.
And I see that as opportunity.
And actually, now that I'm thinking about this podcast and how it can contribute, I
would hope that anybody who listens to this actually comes out of this feeling more hopeful

(15:17):
that there's actually so much more within your control than you realize that can bring
that sense of joy and optimism back into your life and your work and hopefully ripples of
impact within your organizations as well.
And it might not be as hard as we think it is, but that's a really high level way of
answering that question.
But I do get the sense that people are less happy with their workplaces based on the conversations

(15:38):
that I'm having.
And it makes me really curious as to why and how we might shift it.
But does that make sense?
Yeah.
I wonder if it's like the good old days though.
Remember, everyone's always talked about the good old days.
I don't know if before the pandemic, that wasn't true either.
I think you acknowledged that.
But when were you happy at work?
You and I both weren't all that much, I think, because that's why we don't work where we

(16:00):
used to.
Although I know you had a good experience, I think, besides myself.
I did, yeah.
Yeah.
So let me ask you this, man.
You liked your job.
I loved it.
It was part of the reason that we were so connected because we had a chance to work
together.
We were actually on the client side for my work.
But what makes joy at work?

(16:21):
Did you look around back when you loved your job and see that in people?
Or is this something that just in the inherent nature of work, hardly anyone is happy?
Was that before the pandemic?
What brought you joy?
And what do you think if things are great, but nobody is happy?
So what makes people happy at work?
Yes.
I love that.
There's probably lots of data out on that.
So I'll just be annoying and just talk about my opinion and perspective.

(16:44):
But I think it's very individualized to begin with.
And I've been fortunate to generally have clarity on my life's work.
I think that's really hard for a lot of people.
So I very much acknowledge that.
But to me, it's about impact.
If I can see something that I'm doing on a day-to-day basis is going to have a positive
influence or impact on somebody else, that's what makes me come alive.

(17:05):
And when you lead people and culture strategies in an organization, you have the ability to
do that quite directly.
And so that just made the work really purposeful.
So I do think a sense of purpose, as cheesy as that is and how probably over-communicated
that is, really does matter.
I do think it's super hard for people to find that.
And so both for their own clarity and then also just being able to have that materialized

(17:29):
in a way that they actually get in the right position to experience that.
But also it's community for me.
I just find somebody's got to go first.
And leaders set the weather.
I just love that term.
You have to decide every day.
Are you going to be miserable?
Are you going to be happy?
And I know that minimizes a lot of life experience, but there is a choice there for me.
And if somebody goes and makes that choice, even when it's hard, it attracts a lot of

(17:52):
that around you.
And to be honest, there's a lot of great things that have happened with my world of work since
leaving being part of internally in getting a paycheck within an organization.
But the one thing that's way worse is I do miss feeling part of a team, like being part
of a community, because my best days at work is when I would walk into the office or you'd
see people in the elevator and there was just this inherent joy and optimism because you

(18:15):
had these relationships and you just felt that collective energy that we were working
towards something meaningful.
I've felt that.
I used to call it organizational utopia.
It was awesome.
And I see pockets of it now, but it seems to be pretty rare.
And that to me is what made my best days at work.
Honestly, man, I think you just changed the name of the podcast.
We are no longer good company.

(18:37):
We are now organizational utopia.
I don't know.
I like good company.
That's easy to understand.
I know.
And I just love the phrase organizational utopia.
I guess this is a question, man.
I think what gets me is just talking when people do because you were saying that the
CEO talked about they're always doing the surveys.
They're always trying to connect with their people.

(18:58):
Do we ask, are you happy or do we ask what makes you happy?
Because what makes you happy at work is one of those questions that I bet most people
listening actually haven't thought about.
We know what makes us upset, but have we ever because I once had a guy who asked me, do
you want to be rich?
And I thought about it.
I really did.

(19:18):
And I kind of said, yeah, it just seems to eliminate a lot of issues.
And I said, I like walking to and seeing a nice car in the parking lot at the end of
the day.
And he said, do you like seeing the car or do you like the feeling seeing the car brings?
Do you like having the penthouse or do you like the feeling that hitting the pH button

(19:38):
gives you?
And I really realized it's not the actual thing.
It's the feeling that it brings.
But I had never asked myself this question.
When do you feel happiest?
And what thing is in common with all of those?
I'm wondering if we're asking the right questions of employees when we say, are you happy as
opposed to asking them, when do you feel happiest?

(20:01):
Maybe that's a shift, because when you ask, when do you feel happiness?
We can start to identify those common threads and the things that the company is doing and
the situations people are in.
And then instead of trying to make employees happy, we're trying to create the environments
and the specific situations where they feel happiest.
Yeah, it's interesting.
And I do think there's some good data, which I wish I was smart enough to be able to reference

(20:26):
right now, that indicates there is a direct correlation between happiness and engagement
and obviously engagement and performance.
And you kind of follow that bouncing ball.
I do see examples of that question in engagement surveys, but not that I've seen that directly.
Are you happy and what makes you happy?

(20:46):
It's some variation that's kind of a little bit more generalized that's trying to get
to that.
And I'm of two minds on it, because one, the part of that that I love is the reflective
aspect of it.
It makes somebody actually think, I hope when they answer that, like, wait a second, am
I?
And that's, I think, good.
And then if it also gets them to a place of thinking about what does make me happy, which

(21:08):
is why one of my favorite coaching questions is when I just ask people, tell me about your
best days at work.
What are you doing?
What makes you come alive?
Them having to think about that, I think, is really important.
The concern that I have with it, not to be a damper on this, and I'm not saying it's
a bad idea at all, it kind of goes back a bit to what I was talking about earlier, is
that that then like set an expectation that it's the organization's responsibility to

(21:31):
make me happy.
Because if we're in that mindset, that's always a losing game.
And I think that's why we end up maybe now where that CEO is saying everything's wonderful
and nobody's happy is because happiness is an inside job.
And an organization, I believe, is a beacon of hope.
And actually that to me, that whole organization, the utopia thing, like it's one of the last

(21:52):
remaining institutions that I think everybody generally is connected to it.
And we've lost so many of them.
And they can be huge beacons of hope and goodness in people's lives, but they can't do it for
you.
And so I like the question.
I like the reflection.
I love people thinking about that.
But it can't come with a reaction then that creates almost entitlement for an organization

(22:13):
to provide that for me.
Like could it have a negative consequence where it increases the expectations on the
organization which already aren't being met, which is the reason they're not happy?
I don't know.
I'm going down a really big rabbit hole here.
Yeah, man.
Like we got two more questions to do, but I'd like to dive into that.
And I'd like to put a pin in that because I think we should ask our guests that.

(22:34):
Like it's is it the responsibility of because you're right.
When you offload the responsibility for happiness onto something else, you are making your
happiness contingent on something else.
And what's interesting is someone told me once because I used to say you should put
a photograph of someone you love on your rear view mirror or on the back of your office

(22:54):
door and on the back of your home door, whatever that place is, because it gives you an extra
moment of happiness every day.
And I was driving to a speech within an Uber and I saw that she had this photograph of
her daughter and I said, oh, I tell people to do that so they can have a moment of happiness.
And she looked over her shoulder and was like, you don't have kids, do you?

(23:15):
That's what I was thinking.
Yeah.
And she said, I'll tell you the people you love, you don't like them very much sometimes.
But she said, I don't get happiness from that.
I get strength.
And whenever I look at her, I am reminded that I'm connected to something bigger.
And that brings me strength.
And strength is a prerequisite for happiness.
And so maybe one of the bigger questions is, what are some of the things that your organization

(23:39):
does that makes people feel weaker?
And maybe that's where we wrap up this first question and bump to the second one is, if
you're out there, what would your employees say?
What would your colleagues say?
What would the people you work with who work for you that you work for say?
If you said, what in the office makes you feel weaker?
Would be a really interesting question to get people thinking about.

(24:00):
Because what I'd love to do with this podcast is send people out with a bunch of questions
that they can think about, that they can ask their colleagues, and maybe it's going to
shed a little bit of light on it.
And then hopefully they'll write back in and tell us what they heard as a result as well.
Yeah, me too.
Because I feel like everything that comes out of my mouth, I immediately think, oh,
that was probably really wrong.
And it's super biased.

(24:21):
And I also though, there's part of me when you mentioned that, what makes you happy question,
I got super excited about it.
And I had all of these faces pop into my mind of these executive leaders that are like,
I want to know that, and I really don't want us to ask it because of that concern of what
it could create.
But I also know they are curious to want the answer too.

(24:43):
So that's not suggesting they're bad people or bad leaders.
It's just the unintended consequence of good intentions kind of thing is on my mind.
But that question around, yeah, what does the organization do that makes you feel weaker?
That's powerful.
And I've never heard anybody bring that question forward before.
And maybe it's just like, it's your managers that do it.
Like this is something that can start from the bottom up, right?

(25:04):
You can't necessarily have the CEO and the C-suite start asking people that.
But maybe it can become a bigger part of what managers throughout the entire organization
do to better understand that piece.
And I guess that can lead us to the next question we were going to talk about.
We've identified these key things.
I said that the idea that we're not dealing with the trauma of the pandemic effectively,

(25:25):
you were talking about this phrase that I found was really eye opening, which is everything
is great and no one is happy.
Now that person's in a lucky position that everything is great.
A little bit deeper dive into the idea of the pandemic as a collective trauma that we
all experience.
Was it for some?
Wasn't it for others?
If it is a trauma, what does that mean?
Like what actually is the characteristics of that?

(25:47):
And how does that differ from some of the other workplace challenges we face?
And how do different people experience it?
So that was the first one we wanted to dive into.
How have or can organizations successfully recover from those lingering impacts?
Two questions.
What do organizations do that make people feel weak?
And what do organizations do that result in people feeling strong?

(26:09):
I did have some nice light conversations with people within my circle and some leadership
experts and some executives asking just a really soft question like, hey, was the pandemic
trauma and how was your experience with it?
And I got everything in terms of a full spectrum back on this.
So there was zero alignment, I guess, is the punchline.

(26:29):
But I think within that is a message.
So I asked people like specifically, would you classify it as trauma?
I had everything from people saying absolutely 100%.
The lingering impact of this continues to persist in a negative way in my life.
And then I even had somebody say quietly, it was actually kind of like the best thing
for me.
I'm a deep introvert and it gave me so much more reflection time.

(26:50):
I've missed my family being on the road a lot.
I got to spend so much time and make memories with them that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
And then everything in between in terms of how it enabled flexible and remote work capability
and people who are frustrated about the organization's response.
And so I don't know where that leaves us.
And then I did talk to a bit of an expert in trauma-informed leadership.

(27:11):
He's a friend of mine, a guy named Jay Mochenko.
And he described it, I think, best is that it really is based on personal experience.
And there's a spectrum.
And I don't know exactly where we cross over the line into giving it that label or that
title of the T-word.
But ultimately, I think the way that he would talk about it, anything that overwhelms your
ability to cope can be traumatic.

(27:33):
And if it has long lasting negative impact, then it might be worthy of that title.
But the challenge is we all experienced it so differently based on what I learned.
And so I don't think I'm comfortable giving it a collective label based on the conversations
that I had.
But individual experiences absolutely might classify utilizing that term.

(27:56):
So that was my experience.
What about yours?
Had the exact same experience that I talked to people about it.
And what I found really interesting is that I go in with this assumption because I honestly
did.
I proposed it as a I think of it this way.
And that's in fact the way I think about it because it helps with my empathy.
But I had the same experience as you did.
And I'll tell you, man, I read so many freaking studies, like so many studies.

(28:19):
I have not read so many academic research papers since I left university like 15, 20
years ago.
I just wanted to know if there was actual data to back this up.
And I got to tell you, man, I didn't talk to many people.
What I did is I went down this rabbit hole of data and information.
And I wanted to see, you know, I went in with some assumptions and I got to tell you, I

(28:42):
was wrong on some of them and I was right on others, which, you know, is all you can
ask for.
But it was a yes and no answer.
The research shows that it was very much a yes or no answer.
For some people, it was very much trauma, not just a negative experience or worse than
other people.
It was trauma.
It has led to ongoing anxiety and PTSD like symptoms for some people.

(29:04):
But for others, they actually thrived.
The ability to have flexibility, the ability to commute, the ability to be home more often
with their kids, in some cases more than they like when school was going from home.
But that actually, and you know how someone said you whispered it?
That I think is what they found is that there was guilt on the part.
So even though the pandemic itself didn't cause trauma, there's actually a survivor

(29:28):
like guilt for people who came through the pandemic feeling beneficial.
Things came out of it.
And that what I found really interesting is this study of the idea that there's almost
survivor guilt for people who are like, yeah, the pandemic was okay.
And they want to keep it quiet.
Have you found that too?
Yeah, and actually, it's just got me thinking about something else.
I feel like what happened with the pandemic and this was probably happening, it just got

(29:51):
way more accelerated as a result, is all of our outlets for happiness became incredibly
narrowed.
And there's very few left now.
And so I remember growing up a typical week, like Monday was like my mom's bowling league,
Tuesday was like my dad played softball or curling.
One night was like church small group and on Sunday, people would come over for lunch

(30:12):
and Friday was the neighborhood barbecue.
There was all of these different outlets for community.
And I think we slowly narrowed away from a lot of that.
And then the pandemic happened and literally restricted most of it.
And now the only remaining institutions or outlets for happiness that just about everybody
has access to is their organization, and maybe their partner if they're lucky enough to

(30:35):
have one and have a good one.
And beyond those two things, there's not a lot left.
And we also were conditioned through that period to not seek them because we couldn't.
And so now we're coming out of this.
And I just feel like that place is such an unrealistic expectation on those two remaining
or maybe even just one.
Let's just talk about the organization for a second.

(30:56):
It puts so much pressure on the organization to do everything in terms of providing a
happiness outlet for you.
And yet an organization, this is like my fundamental belief, should be a beacon of hope in people's
lives.
And I think it absolutely can be and they're great institutions for good.
But where's the right line in terms of responsibility to an organization contributing to your well-being

(31:17):
but not owning all of it?
Does that make sense?
There's a question in there that I've been exploring in my mind a bit.
It makes sense.
It really does.
And it's a really fascinating question.
Where does the responsibility of the organization stop?
And that's such an interesting one because how much of our mental health is tied to our
workplace experience?
And I'm sure that's different for every single person, but and I hate the phrase average

(31:40):
person, but if your company thinks they can call you at eight o'clock at night or email
you on a Sunday afternoon, they seem at some point to me to be saying that we have a right
to infringe upon parts of your life that technically you're not paid for.
So at what point can we say that the stress that is caused from nine to five, Monday to

(32:01):
Friday, okay, yeah, well, guess what?
It affects me all weekend too, you know?
So this idea that it is the responsibility of the organization, interesting.
But if we think of people being raised by a village, the people within an organization
play a huge portion of what percentage of the day you spend awake.
You and many people probably spend nearly as many hours at work as they do with their

(32:22):
family, if not more.
And as a result, can we not argue that when a job takes over your life, that the job has
some responsibility in supporting that reality?
Now we can argue whether or not the best companies have a culture where it takes over your life,
but if you love something, it is going to play a pretty big role.
But that is a really interesting question.

(32:45):
And I wonder how companies feel about it or at what stage within a company you move into
thinking this isn't our responsibility.
Is that just the people at the very, very top who are going to think that?
Because everybody else is going to get impacted by it.
So who even decides that the company starts to resent it?
Because if you make the company a person in your argument, I can see them being like,

(33:05):
look, I'm here for you, but come on.
Some of this is your own doing.
And so I know that was a bit of a stream of consciousness, but that's what popped into
my head when you said it.
I personified a company finally and just saw it as sort of like a good friend, but who
was sort of telling you like it is.
But I don't know if work is going to be so far into people's lives, whether or not they

(33:26):
have to acknowledge that they have responsibility for their employees outside of nine to five.
I would argue that companies do.
Most companies I argue have a responsibility to their employees outside of the nine to
five for their mental health, because I think that the nine to five they work impacts the
five to eight fifty nine the rest of their life.
I love the argument there that you kind of put forward that, yeah, if an organization

(33:49):
is kind of drawing this from you, there should I see that as a heightened responsibility.
I just think, too, in my experience, companies aren't great.
And when I say companies, like maybe more people in senior positions of leadership who
have kind of the heaviest amount of influence, they're not great at nuance.
I don't think anybody is.
And so I think well intentioned is where everything starts.

(34:10):
And so there's a lot of compassion for the circumstance.
And I feel like we really felt that in the time post pandemic is there was genuine efforts
for the most part for organizations to be really compassionate about the impact and
trying to be flexible and supportive.
As this has lingered now years on, I think there's an intolerance and there's also such
a bias for action generally within that profile of leader and then also just organizations

(34:35):
themselves that there's kind of a natural impatience.
So it's like then we revert to the other side.
It's like, you know what, we tried being compassionate.
Everything just seems to be getting worse.
People are less happy to the stats you mentioned earlier as well.
It's getting more serious.
So now, you know what, compassion's out the window.
We need to move on with the course of business.
But it's not that simple.
We're somewhere in between and, you know, in some of my conversations as well, like

(34:57):
this thing kept coming up around and maybe I'll rate the and I'm certainly not an expert
here so I want to be very careful to just abolish any credibility anyone might even
think I have as it relates to this.
But when some people experience traumatic events, from my understanding looking into
some of the research around it, there is a significantly higher likelihood that they

(35:18):
will come out of it more resilient and stronger as opposed to with more significant mental
health impacts like depression and PTSD.
And that's not minimizing those people that absolutely experienced that unquestionably.
That's a huge issue.
It certainly happens.
But I sometimes think we forget that there is a better chance than not that we actually
come out of this better and stronger.

(35:41):
And when the entire conversation is solely focused on the negative impacts of the experience
and I'm not minimizing those without also talking about what's the post-traumatic recovery
plan that gives us hope that we actually come out stronger, then we end up sitting in it
and not moving out of it.
And then I think the people in leadership who just feel an impatience for moving the

(36:05):
company forward, they then just become a little bit less compassionate and just kind of throw
it out the window and say, that's enough.
I want to move on.
And that's not good because the majority of the organization feels a lack of compassion
and then they revolt and we end up with bigger problems.
So this idea of having this post-pandemic, post-trauma recovery strategy that leaves

(36:28):
people feeling like there is a path to hopefulness and that actually, you know what?
We're going to come out of this stronger and better.
I really want to know what organizations are doing that really well and maybe have already
pulled it off.
I have not seen any.
My world's not huge.
Do you know any that are doing that well, that are kind of really focusing on this post-traumatic

(36:48):
recovery plan, if you will?
I do not.
And it's interesting because I was doing a little bit of research into what some of the
biggest companies on the planet have been doing in response, right?
So what you see over and over again is action, but not necessarily long-term planning, right?
Google's got, they up their employee assistance program and increased mental health days,

(37:09):
provided a reset day to all employees, like a single reset day.
Microsoft extended the work from home policy, more flexible hours.
Salesforce, again, more flexible hours, mental health days, Zoom, workshops, proactive management
focus on mental health awareness.
It seems like we're going to try to make it more flexible to work and we're going to give

(37:29):
you a day off every now and then.
And whether or not you need it to reset, this is the day we scheduled mental health reset
day.
But you said something that fascinates me, man, because I stumbled across an interesting
fact and that was you talked about resilience.
And I love what you said about if we only look at trauma from only the negative parts.
And again, we don't want to diminish it.

(37:50):
I know it, I live with PTSD, but the idea that there are certain aspects of it, particularly
resilience, and we've got lots of organizations putting in, like we asked that question, what
are they doing?
And they're adding more mental health days and more work from home and more mental health
awareness, which is important.
But I'm wondering if it's because they actually are interested in mental health awareness

(38:10):
or the fact that here it is.
In 2019, there was a study that said 60% of employees would prefer a company that cared
about mental health over one that paid more.
Mental health support is a critical factor in choosing employers.
So let's hope one of it is they care about people, but the other is it helps them attract
and keep.
I think I said something about resilience, about how trauma sends you out more resilient.

(38:35):
PWC, they actually found that for every buck, every dollar that was spent on developing
resilience among employees, there's a $2.30 return in terms of improved productivity and
reduced turnover.
So you get more than double the return on your money when you put it into employee resilience.
I think the key is to not create places where people don't struggle.

(38:58):
It's not even places that support people when they struggle.
It's places that invest in helping people bounce back after they struggle, which seems
to me to be unbelievably important.
Yeah.
I love that term bounce back and my little squirrel brain goes to remember, you know,
I don't know if you know the name Tom Watson, right?
Famous golfer.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(39:18):
He came here years ago and he was Ryder Cup captain and he was doing this talk and somebody
asked him, when you're selecting the players for the Ryder Cup where you have some influence,
what's the number one quality you look for?
And that's the term he said, bounce back.
He goes, golf is such a mental game.
At this level, everyone can make every shot, but it is the person who can recover after
making a bad shot that has that resiliency to bounce back.

(39:42):
That's who I need on the team.
And I think that just reinforced what you mentioned is how do you do that though in
a way that's not tone deaf, right?
Because I get hired, maybe you do.
I've done keynotes on resiliency and some I feel I go in and it's really helpful.
And sometimes to be honest, it feels icky because there's an organization that's like,

(40:03):
this is their strategy to show we're investing in mental health.
We hired a guy to come in and talk and deliver some resiliency training and it comes across
to people like, oh, so it's all on me now.
And sure, it is always on all of us, but you need to feel understood and compassionate.
The organization actually cares as opposed to I checked the box and pencil whipped resiliency.

(40:23):
That doesn't work.
And so maybe this is a dovetail into that question that we had kind of looming around
what do organizations do that makes us feel weak or results in us feeling weak?
What do organizations do that result in us feeling strong?
Because somewhere in there might be an answer of how we're on the right side of this, but
maybe we do start a little bit with some of the conditions within organizations that result

(40:46):
in us struggling to find that hope or that empowerment or embracing our own resiliency
so we come out of this more optimistic.
Did you find anything in there from your own experience talking to so many people in so
many organizations?
What are the most consistent things you hear that result in people feeling weak and unable
to access resiliency?

(41:07):
You know, what's interesting is this is one of those rare cases where there's a great
line in not Lord of the Rings.
Oh my gosh, I almost caused like if anybody was listing a barrage of hatred because I've
mixed up Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones, but there's a great line in Game of Thrones
when Tyrion, someone says, this is true, everyone knows that.
And he said, I trust the eyes of an honest man more than I trust what everyone knows.

(41:32):
And I just, I love that.
And this was one of those cases when I dove into this where it actually turned out that
what we kind of have heard anecdotally is actually backed up by evidence.
And so there were five major things that over my time I have, yeah, I've seen over and over
again and then I went into the research to dive into what has it actually said are cumulatively

(41:57):
the biggest factors in keeping employees feeling disengaged, unmotivated.
And it sounds a lot like what I was actually hearing anecdotally, micromanagement and a
lack of autonomy, very poor communication and lack of transparency from the executives,
lack of recognition and reward that they feel is actually adequate, inequitable treatment

(42:18):
and favoritism.
That actually I hadn't heard from a lot of executives.
I think it's because nobody wants to acknowledge any kind of inequitable treatment, like whether
it's tied to DEI or whether it's simply that you like some people more than others and
overwork was the fifth.
So micromanagement, poor communication, lack of recognition, inequality and overwork.

(42:42):
Those were in fact the five things that I had heard consistently and that was actually
backed up by what we saw when I actually saw when I started looking at the data.
Yeah, well none of those ring true at all for me.
I've never heard any of them.
It's absolutely, it's almost maybe we were looking at the same research because one of
my favorite pieces of work and I reference it all the time comes from Dr. David Rock

(43:06):
and the Neuro Leadership Institute and they've done great things doing like analysis on the
neuroscience behind social conditions within the workplace.
Maybe you're familiar, the scarf model is what I'm referencing here because basically
what they have done is analyze the social conditions that lead people to one of two
places and I'll simplify the whole neuroscience behind it.

(43:27):
Our brain naturally goes to is this safe or is this a threat and they call it reward state
if you're safe, threat state if you're feeling threatened or unsafe and what they found is
the five things are almost the exact same as what you just referenced.
The acronym is status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness and fairness.

(43:48):
On the weak side and on the strong side, the antidote to status is feedback.
If I know where I stand with people and that is where a lot of appreciation and recognition
comes in but if I know where I stand with people, I'm more relaxed.
I feel stronger, I feel more in control.
Certainty if I know what's coming next around the next corner.
Good luck with the pandemic that completely got sacrificed.
We were living in a period of uncertainty and I still think in a lot of ways we are.

(44:11):
Can I predict the future though is really the answer to that one.
Autonomy, I mean everything that you just talked about.
Do I have control over my events?
Relatedness is do I belong here?
That's where inclusive leadership comes in and is this a place that I actually feel I
can be myself and then fairness is it's not even agreeing with decisions but that there

(44:32):
was a fair process for those decisions that was transparent.
There was transparency in decision making that felt like there was fair process.
Those are the big five and if they're absent, generally people feel the victim of their
circumstances and out of control and if they're present, we're in our state of safety.
We feel secure, we feel strong and we feel optimistic because I have more control over

(44:52):
my outcomes and so those are the things and if anyone's listening here thinking about
how do I practically take away stuff from this podcast, I mean it's not rocket science.
If you can give clear feedback and just frequent clear communication, give them the why but
not the how.
Make sure you're checking in that they feel a sense of belonging and be transparent in

(45:14):
your decision making.
It's amazing how far that goes to create the conditions for safety.
It blew my mind, my friend, when I actually started seeing the results that came out of
looking at these because yes, you're right, it's anecdotal and you're like of course,
it makes sense but this is what blew my mind.
70% of employees who are heavily monitored report higher levels of work related distress

(45:34):
compared to people that aren't.
Employees with poor communication saw 47% higher turnover rates.
This is what got me, 26% of employees, one in four employees who perceive favoritism
in the workplace ended up leaving their job within a year.
Perceiving favoritism in the workplace makes somebody the one in four chance that they
were actually going to work and half of all people according to the Pirate Business Review,

(45:58):
half of all businesses in the service profession felt their work demands were unsustainable,
half and 94% worked 50 hours a week.
94% of people within the service professional industry were working more than 50 hours a
week and this is culture.
That is culture.
If it's expected and people do it thinking that there's no other option, that's culture.

(46:18):
This is what we created.
Yeah and I mean, you've uncovered so much there and...
Yeah, sorry all the numbers everyone.
I just loved diving into like if you're wondering, oh yeah, I know I shouldn't micromanage, let
me tell you why.
Yeah, I so appreciate it.
Oh, I think this and you're like, well actually there's research so that's lovely.
So I appreciate you bringing that lens and we need to be careful because I throw stuff

(46:43):
out there all the time and you could be wrong and that's helpful and I guess where my head
is going though and maybe I'm pushing too quickly to this.
So how do we make it better?
I mean, that's what this podcast is all about.
How do we make it better?
And obviously that'll be an ongoing exploration for us but in your research journey here and
diving into all the academic journals, did you come across anything then?

(47:05):
Okay, so that's the what, now what?
Like, do you got some ideas there or even that we can just start batting around of what
the leaders or organizations are doing in spite of this to rise above and move past?
You know, it's funny is basically the list is the exact opposite of the things that we're
doing to cause weakness but I saw some really interesting ideas, man.

(47:26):
One was that really effective companies could create a process by which people are able
to let go more effectively of what they're bringing from their old job.
And one I read a Harvard Business Review article by, Melody Wilding was her name, about how
to recover from a toxic job.
And the idea was there's also research I came across that showed that trauma and trauma

(47:49):
responses are actually passable from one person to the other, contagious.
If there's a constant expanded or extended exposure to somebody else's trauma, it impacts
you on your own.
And she talked about when you bring someone in from an old organization, it's like when
you bring someone in, bring someone in from an old relationship, everybody's bringing
their own stuff.

(48:10):
And so she talked about how the idea was to have people actually go through a cathartic
process of letting go of their old job before they start their new one.
So writing a letter to your old self, letting go of it, writing a letter that you never
send to your old boss if that was toxic, actually going through these healing strategies of

(48:30):
taking control, planning for triggers that you recognize now could be overwhelming from
your last job.
Like if your last job, your boss never trusted you, believe it or not, you're going to assume
your new boss will not trust you.
You don't even realize that's the case, right?
So that was one thing that popped out at me is one of the first things, and I've got a
list of five, but one of the first was letting go more effectively as you move from one job

(48:54):
to another.
Write this departure letter, start to list some of the things that you know triggered
you in your old job so you can be on the lookout to make sure you're not reacting instead of
responding.
So that was something I never heard about is that can we create a space where people
coming from their old job are actually encouraged or walk through a process of letting go of

(49:16):
the baggage of the trauma that may have come from it?
I never thought of that.
Yeah, I love that because there is something that strikes a chord around shifting from
trauma as my identity, like this is who I am versus this is what happened to me.
And there's been some good work there.
But it reminds me actually of one of the best leaders I've ever worked for, phenomenal.

(49:39):
She had this incredible career as a lawyer who moved into head of marketing and sales
and was leading a couple of different business units in a mining industrial environment all
over the place.
I remember watching her in this meeting when she took over this new executive role in a
really tough business unit that to be blunt, she didn't really know anything about.
She got eaten alive in this first meeting and it was really unfair because people are

(50:02):
piling on because of her lack of technical competence, et cetera.
And afterward, after everybody left, I wanted to walk up and just apologize.
You didn't deserve that.
You shouldn't have been treated that way.
It was like water off a duck's back.
She had no issue with it.
She's like, oh, I'm fine.
And I was like, how?
If that was me, I would have been crushed.
How are you fine?
She goes, because I know I'm a good leader.

(50:23):
And then she walked away.
And I was like, what?
And it wasn't arrogant.
It was just confident.
And then I was like, I need to know more about that.
So I asked her out for a coffee or lunch or something like that as soon as I could get
her calendar.
And I was like, what gave you the confidence to say that comment?
And she's like, at this level, leadership is the profession.
I can learn the technical stuff, whatever.

(50:44):
But I know how to lead.
And she goes, I learned a long time ago this simple practice where whenever something negative
happens, there's really only one question that's effective.
What did I learn from that experience?
That's it.
And I sit down.
I spend no more than five minutes on it.
I write down that.
And then I let it go.
And any time my brain wants to ruminate and go back to it, I just rephrase that question.

(51:07):
What did I learn from that experience?
And guess what?
I'm a better, stronger, more equipped leader for having that as opposed to clouding it
in this, oh, this happened to me and now this has derailed my leadership.
No, what did I learn from that experience?
It increases resiliency and it stops her brain from ruminating.
And that's a practice that I just thought was really powerful.

(51:30):
Now again, I'm not minimizing stuff that is going to be far more serious and significant
than that.
But if you're thinking about how you reframe negative experiences into productive and learning
moments, I just love that question.
And it sounds very consistent with what you uncovered in the research there.
What else did you find?
Did you find anything else out there that might be helpful for our listeners?

(51:52):
Recognition and rewards.
A couple of things really popped out at me.
And one is that organizations that have a sophisticated recognition program, like one
that's actually effective and that was created with feedback from the people who are being
recognized have 31% lower voluntary turnover.
So a third less turnover.

(52:12):
And one of the little strategies that I came across in my work was the difference between
shifting from direct to indirect compliments.
Is this something you're familiar with?
No, I don't think so.
So a direct compliment would be like, man, I really like the jacket you're wearing today,
my friend.
By the way, I really do like the jacket that you're wearing today.
I know that was the podcast, but you're looking slick, my friend.

(52:33):
Oh, thank you.
I love how the sale is good.
Yeah.
Well, if I say, look, it's a great jacket, you might be like, oh, yeah, thanks.
Or it's just sort of the polite response, right?
But if I was to say, man, how did you settle on this kickass style that you got going?
You always got like the really cool shirt with the really nice blazer.
Where'd you settle on that style?

(52:54):
That's also a compliment.
But you have to accept the premise of the compliment in order to respond to that question.
We'll often blow off a compliment.
We'll say, oh, whatever.
Oh, I just threw this together.
Oh, I got it in winters.
Whatever, diminishes it, right?
And there's actually, I discovered, four reasons for that.
One, we are really poor at evaluating ourselves.

(53:15):
We either think we're much better than we are or much worse than we are.
Two, cognitive dissonance.
If you don't think you're awesome and someone tells you that you're awesome, then your brain
can't hold those two things at the same time.
And it settles on the one that's more threatening because then it can pay attention to it because
that's its job, right?
It's to protect you.
We also want to avoid expectations.

(53:37):
So if I'm like, man, you always look so great.
If you accept that premise, then every time we hang out, you think you got to look great.
And if you hand in an amazing project and they like, this is the best work you've ever
done and you're like, thank you.
Now you're thinking to yourself, well, every time I don't meet that level, I'm going to
get hurt.
And the last thing is humility.
We are taught to be humble, which means diminishing your accomplishments.

(53:59):
And humility isn't diminishing what makes you extraordinary.
It's recognizing that what makes you extraordinary doesn't make you better than other people.
And so for those four reasons, an accurate self-image and cognitive dissonance and expectation
avoidance and humility, we deflect compliments.
So instead of telling someone what you think is good about them, you ask them about how,

(54:22):
right?
Man, there's so much chaos going around.
How do you stay focused and do such high quality work?
They have to participate in telling you why they're great.
And I love that difference.
It wasn't a recognition program.
What it was is a recognition practice that made it more effective so that your positive
feedback actually landed.
And I thought that was amazing.

(54:43):
And 82% of employees feel like I'm just throwing the data around because I love getting data,
my friends.
But eight and 10 people are happier when they're recognized at work.
But we often don't ask them how they want to be recognized.
We do it with time off or we do it with a pizza party.
But it's not necessarily recognition just isn't about programs.
Recognition is about behavior and asking people how they like to be recognized because different

(55:06):
personality types want different recognition.
Yeah.
I love everything about that example.
And maybe I'll try to break down why.
Because I've been on the other side of this.
I used to lead a team that was responsible for the recognition strategy, for lack of
a better term within the organization.
And I got to tell you, I wanted to pull my hair out because I do have empathy for some

(55:27):
of those leaders that worry we're creating a culture of entitlement.
And I don't want to come across that way because I hear that all the time.
Oh, we're creating.
It actually drives me nuts.
I think it's to be blunt, just a really immature response.
However, some examples, the programs of the past were long service awards, things like
that.
You work 25 years and you get a gold watch, et cetera.

(55:48):
We tried pulling that away to do something more purposeful in our mind that was linked
to the organization's purpose, et cetera.
And what we were finding is you could go on eBay or Kijiji here and you would find all
of these gold watches or whatever trinkets were given out.
I mean, remember the one year there was an award for a number of days worked without

(56:09):
a lost time injury.
So everybody got jackets.
Well, if you wanted a cheap jacket, you would have just gone on eBay the next day because
the whole place was littered with it.
And so it's like, well, this is obviously not having the impact that we want, but good
luck trying to take that away because as soon as you take it away, then all of a sudden
the company's pulling back.
They don't care about people and people who are in the place like I was of leading strategies

(56:31):
like that, you kind of throw your hands up and you're like, I can't win.
This is a lose-lose.
People aren't happy when we give this.
People certainly aren't happy when you give it away.
And so I've kind of been obsessed with this, what's the difference between recognition
and appreciation?
Because they're in the same place, right?
And to me, what people crave is appreciation far more than recognition because we all just

(56:54):
want to feel understood and we want to feel seen.
And the thing I love about your example there is it's curious.
It's a question that you can't do if you don't deeply care about a person and want to understand
them better.
And it comes from a place of learning as well.
You're doing something I don't know how to do.
That's like a nice little status kick there going back to that.

(57:17):
How do you do that?
It's curious.
It gives autonomy because then they can share something.
They feel a sense of belonging because this person is interested in me.
It checks so many of those boxes of those things earlier.
And there's a great book that just came out, Charles Duhigg, he wrote that old book, The
Power of Habit.
He just wrote Super Communicators and so it's everywhere now.
It's one of those bestsellers.

(57:38):
I'm just about through it.
And he talks exactly about this, is like this idea of if you can change your questions.
So instead of when your partner comes home at the end of the day, like how was work,
you might go deeper into something like tell me about something you're really passionate
about that you're working on.
And that's even a basic example.
But that's what I see reflected in what you just shared is it's more in the camp of like

(57:59):
demonstrating appreciation because I care enough about you to highlight the thing that
really inspires me that you're doing.
And I'm so interested in it that I'm getting curious about how you do it so I can learn
from you.
That's amazing.
But it doesn't cost anything except a little bit of thoughtfulness and time.
And I don't have any research to back this up, but I'm guessing if everybody deployed

(58:22):
that kind of behavior, you wouldn't need a formal recognition program and the statistics
would be through the roof in terms of how that would drive organizational culture.
So there's my hypothesis to try to prove out.
So everybody go and do what Drew just said.
Here's a thought and question too, right?
First of all, recognition and appreciation, I'm going to be chewing on that all week.

(58:42):
I'm betting that that's going to be something I deep dive into for next episode.
Just what is the difference between those two and what are some of the most effective
ways of recognizing people?
But what really gets me is I just I got asked a question.
I was on a Q&A right before we started this.
And they said, have you noticed a difference between how generations view leadership?

(59:05):
And I get asked that all the time.
And I'm wondering about your thoughts on it, because one of the things that caught me is
that LinkedIn and all these other platforms have given younger generations of workers
the opportunity to read all the stuff about them that gets written, particularly by the
people who are supposed to be leading them.

(59:25):
So is it possible for young people who have read everything about how they're perceived
to look at recognition programs as anything but transactional?
Because how do you show appreciation to people within your community when the community at
large is crapping all over them?
Like how do you do that?
Well, I mean, the way I might turn it around is like think of your own life for a second.

(59:48):
When have you felt most appreciated?
Can you think of examples?
And I'm serious, I'm asking you the question.
Just think of the circumstances when you felt most appreciated.
And I know that's a personal question and there's going to be differences.
But what comes to mind for you, Drew, in times when you felt most appreciated?
You know, I was surprised when I left high school, they introduced me to come out and
just make a few comments and they gave me a standing ovation, the students, which made

(01:00:11):
me feel like all those late nights really mattered.
And then the same thing happened twice more when I left university and when I left the
head of the charity that I ran up here.
And in all of those times, they insisted on not letting me run away from that recognition.
That was a big piece is that in every single case, I was trying to move somewhere.

(01:00:32):
Like I was just trying to move on to the next thing because I still worry that if you are
a high performer, the assumption is that you want acknowledgement for all of that performance.
And so sometimes you want to avoid acknowledgement so that people don't think that the only reason
you're putting in all these hours is for that moment of recognition, because I think that

(01:00:55):
sullies it.
If that makes any sense, I'm not sure if people follow what I was saying there.
But yeah, it's in those moments where groups of people made me pause before we could move
on to the next thing, before we just started on what was next, before the next presenter,
the next speaker, the next whatever came on, we're going to stop for a second and we're
going to make you listen to the fact that this mattered to us.

(01:01:16):
Those are what I felt most appreciated in those three moments probably.
When you talk about groups of people, individually, it's probably the lollipop moment actually.
But yeah, sure, but yeah, well, that's it though.
It's beautiful and I appreciate you sharing it.
If I think about that for myself as well, it just feels like there's an under root of
there's felt caring and compassion from others and they really thought about it.

(01:01:41):
You can't see in my office here, over to my left, I have this, the best, if anyone asks
you that icebreaker question, what's the best gift you've ever received?
Well, mine's on my wall over here.
So when I was a kid, I wanted to grow up and be a Nike shoe designer.
I would sketch shoes in my room and my whole wall was filled with these creative designs
and obviously I ended up doing something very different in life.

(01:02:03):
But when I started my business, my sister gifted me the ability to custom make a pair
of Nike shoes and calls them my Nike or Axums and we co-designed them with all of these
little head nods to my business and my life and they're in a shadow box on my wall.
I don't care.
I mean, it's nice that she spent some money on that and there's a physical product on

(01:02:24):
the wall.
But like the fact that she tied in my childhood dream to my business now and went to the effort
to think about something that would matter at a deep personal level for me, that's an
extreme level of care that I don't know if I've ever felt more appreciated, certainly
not by a gift.

(01:02:45):
And so that's why I loved your question earlier around direct versus indirect recognition
in that sense of like, I'm not just going to say nice jacket.
Hey, where did you get your sense of style?
I always really liked the way you dress.
There's a deeper thoughtfulness to that that reveals care to me and that to me is at the

(01:03:05):
heart of appreciation if I think of the examples in my life as well.
And I got to think, boy, if ever and like that's something if we could all learn to
do, there's a tidal wave of positive impact on organizational culture.
And who's to say that we can't find a way as leaders within organizations to find out
stories like that about our people?

(01:03:26):
Yes.
Because there's a buddy of mine named Mike Cameron and Mike's girlfriend at the time
was murdered by her ex-boyfriend who then died by suicide.
So Mike on Valentine's Day after her death wrote an article called I Love You is Bullshit.
And what he did, he was telling a story about how one day when he was driving along with

(01:03:47):
her, like they said, I love you.
But he realized that he said it without really thinking about it.
And he made a commitment to himself for the next 30 days, he would not say I love you
to his girlfriend.
He would only demonstrate he loved her to her.
And he said, I love you is what we start to say when we stopped spending as much time
showing it.

(01:04:07):
And so he said for 30 days, all he did was actions because saying I love you is amazing,
but demonstrating it is profound.
And it seems to me that within cultures of organizations, we can do things like what
you just described, which is to say, look, I don't need to say anything.
That gift says it all.
That gift that's tied to that thing you said in your interview, that gift that comes from

(01:04:30):
that thing that you said at the Christmas party, that interest that you have.
I absolutely love that story, my friend, because I think it gets to the heart of saying it
doesn't matter.
Acts that demonstrate it consistently, I think are what are going to make great workplace
cultures.
And that can't be part of a program.
It really needs to be part of the identity.

(01:04:51):
And that comes from being curious.
I think you just nailed it.
It comes from being curious.
Yeah, and to bring this full circle back to your incredibly powerful message with the
lollipop moment too, I don't feel as though those gestures need to be buying a pair of
customized shoes and some big grand gesture.
I think that can happen instinctively almost in the moment if we're paying attention simply

(01:05:17):
through a question or a comment.
It doesn't need to be this massive thing.
It's just going deeper with curiosity and listening and questioning.
And that would be a fun place to work if everybody...
But I honestly feel this is again, something for a future episode maybe.
People struggle, right?
I can hear a lot of people that I know out there.

(01:05:37):
It's like, that all sounds good.
I don't have the words in the moment, right?
Even if I want to do that, I don't know what questions to ask.
Coming up with your example of, hey, nice jacket, what's your sense of style?
My brain just doesn't go there.
So how can we help people develop that capability to not leave those moments unsquandered?
Because I imagine there's a lot of people listening who would be like, I want to do

(01:05:58):
that.
Realistically, my brain just doesn't go there.
I don't know how.
Help.
And so another thing to explore.
But I don't know, before we close off, anything else?
You've done so much great research here.
We want to leave people with some practical strategies if possible.
This is all kind of to bring this full circle on like, okay, so post-pandemic world of trying
to get to a recovery strategy of making things better, all wrapped up in that question of

(01:06:22):
what are the best organizations do that help people feel strong?
Anything else that you wanted to make sure we got across here today that could be helpful
for our listeners?
Well, I mentioned that there were five positive things and I should share them in case anybody
who I know who thinks like me is just like, they have that sort of shoved off to the side.
Like, no, you have a list still to give us, man.
Like, you only gave us one.

(01:06:43):
So some of the things that the most effective groups do as they attempt to deal with this
idea of organizational trauma as we try to move through is they grant higher levels of
autonomy to their individual employees within it, which obviously means you've got to assess
effectively what their strengths are.
But job satisfaction goes up 20% when people find that job autonomy is increased.

(01:07:08):
If job autonomy is increased, overall job satisfaction goes up at the same time.
Active communication and inclusivity.
So actually doing it, cascading messaging down for the management.
If an employee feels their voice is heard, they're almost five times more likely to feel
empowered to do their best work.
So if we can find a way to make sure that the communication is flowing both ways, I

(01:07:32):
think ask yourself in your organization's community, does it only flow one way or the
other?
If professional development opportunities that aren't just conferences, I think that
this was a really big piece as well.
94% of employees would stay at a company longer if it invested in their career development.
Recognition awards we already talked about and supporting a work-life balance.

(01:07:54):
And employees who think that they have a good work-life balance, which is not very many,
I think as we talked about earlier, it's 10 to 15%, they work about 25% harder than employees
who don't.
So how strange is that?
By taking stuff off people's plates and allowing them to have a life that isn't just your job,
you actually get more out of people.

(01:08:15):
So you don't have to have people work as many hours.
If you have people work fewer hours in a way that makes them feel more energized as people,
you're actually going to have much better results out of that.
And I think that those are sort of the five things.
They gave more autonomy to their employers after letting them feel effective communication,
which means goes both ways.
Given opportunities so that people feel that you're as invested in them as you are in yourself.

(01:08:38):
Make sure you have an actual effective way of recognizing people that shows appreciation
more than just recognition.
And don't just make work-life balance a phrase.
And this is for a whole other episode, man, the concept of work-life balance.
We got to dive into that in a future episode because I don't know about you, but I don't
like the term and I don't think it's something we should seek.
But we can dive into that a little bit later.

(01:09:00):
Yeah, no, all great practices and I agree with all of them.
I think they're all helpful.
And I've seen that as well through my clientele and my exposure.
Well, this has been super fun.
I'm sure there's like a hundred questions that probably got revealed.
What do you want to talk about for next episode?
Is there anything that popped out today that you want us to pick up next time and let me

(01:09:21):
start doing my deep dive technical stuff on?
What I would like to explore is are there companies truly out there that have really
nailed this whole post pandemic recovery where if you went into the company and asked people
are things way better than they were pre pandemic?
Resoundingly everyone's like, yeah, it's awesome.

(01:09:42):
We came out of that so much stronger with so much more resiliency.
We made the best of a really bad situation because I haven't seen that.
And I don't even know if that exists.
I'm sure it does.
If anyone's out there and knows, let us know, but I would love to find examples of what
companies did to thrive on the outcomes of adversity.
So that's kind of my biggest one.

(01:10:02):
Does that make sense?
Let's go looking for it, man.
Like let's go looking for that.
I'm going to test.
I'm going to go on Facebook.
I'm going to hit LinkedIn and I'm going to ask.
I never thought of it that way.
I'm like, how are we going to figure it out?
Where are we going to research it?
No, why don't we just go out and ask people, Hey, do you honestly feel your organization
is better off than it was before?
Can we talk and let's see what we find out for next episode, man.

(01:10:22):
That was perfect.
Yeah, this was awesome.
Thanks, Drew.
Well, this is Drew Dudley with my buddy, Brett Elmgren.
This is good company and we'll see you for the next episode where we dive into who's
managed to pull this off right.
Let's talk to you then.
That's good.
Thanks, Drew.