What if the key to a thriving career lies in embracing the unexpected? Discover the riveting journey of Gianpiero Petriglieri, a celebrated professor at INSEAD, who turned setbacks into stepping stones on his path to success. Sparked by the urging of his wife, Jennifer, Gianpiero's unconventional road to academia is a compelling testament to the power of self-belief and seizing opportunities. Together, we explore his unique insights on leadership, fear, and ego, revealing the profound impact of trusting oneself despite external doubts.
Journey with us as we unpack the delicate dance of professional and personal balance. Gianpiero sheds light on the enriching environment at INSEAD, where diversity and collaboration rewrite career scripts, transforming dreams into dynamic roles. Through shared experiences, we highlight the value of nurturing relationships that challenge and uplift, illustrating how embracing the unforeseen can lead to significant breakthroughs in both life and work. The episode paints a vivid picture of relationship-based leadership and its transformative potential.
Navigate the inner landscape of self-reflection and self-doubt as we discuss strategies to silence the critical inner voice. Gianpiero and I chat about the importance of supportive friendships, mentorship, and the courage to lean on others when self-assurance falters. These relationships act as anchors, providing the confidence needed to transcend limitations and reach new heights. By sharing personal stories and experiences, we unpack the profound shift that occurs when we open ourselves to developmental encounters, ultimately unlocking the door to personal and professional growth.
Learn more about GP:
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gpetriglieri/
On the INSEAD Website: https://www.insead.edu/faculty/gianpiero-petriglieri
Blog on friendship: https://gpetriglieri.com/on-friendship-at-work/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sonal (00:04):
Hey there, welcome to the how I Got Hired podcast.
I'm your host, sonal Behal,former HR director, founder of
Supercharge and corporatesurvivor of an epic career
roller coaster that started outin India, zipped through South
America and landed in Europe,and it's been such a wild ride
navigating visa, sponsorships,layoffs, recessions, all while
(00:27):
working in Spanish and French,which I learned on the fly
somehow, raising two kidssomehow, and sometimes just
trying to remember where Iparked my car.
Now, as a career strategist, Ibelieve a fulfilling career
isn't just for those with IvyLeague degrees or fancy
connections.
(00:48):
No, it's a right we all deserve.
That's why I'm here to bringyou top tier career advice
through coaching courses andthis very podcast where we meet
ordinary people like you and mewho share extraordinary stories
of career success, to prove thatif they can do it, you can do
(01:09):
it too.
So buckle up and get ready toget supercharged.
Hey, welcome back to myconversation with Gianpiero
Petriglieri, and we willcontinue where we left off.
We will talk about how exactlyGP got into INSEAD, and we will
continue with leadership andGP's definitions of leadership,
(01:31):
which I personally think arefascinating, and one of my
favorite parts of this interviewis the end, where you know this
question I ask every singleguest about what is that moment
that supercharged their career?
And GP's answer was so unique.
I've never heard anybody answerthis, so stay till the end
Without further ado, let's getinto it.
(01:53):
We like you, but there's no wecan't put you in a box there's
no box for you and um that'sthree.
It took 18 months for them tofigure it out.
GP (02:07):
There's nothing I can do.
And so at the time and you know, bless Herminia for kind of
keeping, try and keeping me inmind, and so this is what
happens.
And you know, this is actuallynot it's a public story because
it's in.
You know, jennifer Petriglieri,my wife, was also a colleague
here.
She's written a book on couplesand she's written this story in
(02:28):
her book how sometimes ourcareers are not changed just by
people we meet at work, but withpeople.
And although Jennifer is also acolleague people we have a
romantic relationship.
So at some point INSEAD, as acourse, leading people in groups
of b1 it's a core course inorganizational behavior yes and
(02:49):
like a month before the courseis about to start, a professor I
think gets sick and they haveno anyone to teach it and and
they're basically desperate.
So I get this email that saysyou know, you know what you know
.
We've gone back and forth a fewbut we thought it would be,
instead of kind of doing thenormal hiring process, why don't
you come to teach here so youcan spend a couple of months and
(03:11):
it'll be like flirting.
We can meet more of you and youknow you can meet more of us.
Yeah, dating, yeah, but this isa very asymmetric dating.
I am desperate for you whenyou're still trying to figure
out whether you want to see meagain.
So, anyway, I get this emailand this is where I was just so
(03:31):
hurt, I have been so upset, Ideleted it.
And so I, and you know, the dayafter I'm having breakfast with
Jennifer and we are chatting, Ilike you couldn't believe you
know these people.
I didn't say they rejected methree times and now they say you
know, can you come and teach infour weeks time?
You know, this is like the, the.
(03:55):
I mean imagine and she says,yeah, yeah, you know we chat and
then can we move on.
And then after breakfast shegoes in my email, finds the
email in the deleted folder andreplies when do I start what?
She comes to me and say youknow, look, I've done something.
(04:17):
And uh, you know, at the end ofthe day you've got to believe
in yourself like I believe inyou.
You know they will love you.
Let them see what you do.
They will love you.
And that's how I got my job.
I didn't say that I went toteach, hold on once you like,
live it with her, or you kind oflater realized you were
grateful, I mean in thosemoments so, first of all, you
(04:38):
know, jen and I are not verygood at being angry at each
other, but in that moment Irealized, you know, first of all
, this was an earlynon-religious nothing she would
have done wrong okay um second,you know she was right.
I don't really listen, but thereare some people that when this
(05:00):
she was right, I was I again,who was I thinking?
I was a nameless junior, I wasa nobody.
Okay, I was a 30-year-oldnobody you know thinking, oh you
know, I'm just going to turndown teaching a course.
I didn't say people die.
Sonal (05:23):
And here you're saying my feelings were hurt.
GP (05:26):
Yeah, my feelings were hurt, yeah, my feelings were hurt and
thank goodness, thank goodness,I had someone in my life who
realized it will be okay.
You're afraid.
You are afraid because that'swhat happens very often when we
are arrogant we are just afraidthe ego, when we, when the ego
leads, we are freaking out.
Sonal (05:45):
Oh my gosh, so then when you started?
What year is this?
When you started the coursethis?
GP (05:51):
is 2006.
This is January 2006.
We are there.
We are there, I'm teaching.
Sonal (05:59):
And they're observing.
They're observing one-sided,like you said.
And how was?
GP (06:03):
it, so I'm teaching almost every class.
Someone is coming to watch meteach.
Yeah.
By the end.
By the end the students arejust delightful, you know, by
the end it's kind of a love fest, know I?
think institutions need to dowhat they need to do, which is,
(06:26):
you know, they're designed to.
They're designed for conformity, but somehow sometimes they
have people, give them thecapacity to find someone that
might doesn't yet fit, thatmight fit.
And so, you know, theinstitution did not mean what I
think was supposed to do, and so, you know, the institution did
with me what I think wassupposed to do, but what it gave
(06:47):
me was a profound gift, that Ihad a realization.
The people who hired me werethe students.
I work for the students, Iwrite for people out there, you
see, and so many academicsbecause they go through the
(07:10):
progression.
They think the people who have,like I, have to impress a few
peers.
Sonal (07:16):
Fellow academics.
GP (07:16):
Yeah, I have to be, you know , I have to live, you know it's
very.
Academia can become veryinternally focused because, of
course, our judgment of eachother matters so much.
Yes.
We can make or break our career, and it was true even for me,
of course.
But the fact that the studentsthat I got my job that way made
(07:39):
me realize it's the work.
Yes, the work has to comebefore everything, before
pleasing, before status, beforenetworking, before all the other
stuff that really matters yes,the work has to be found.
Do the work, and in fact, thisis the thing.
The most important thing is notwhat the 24 year old gp say to
(08:02):
me.
The most most important thingis what I would say to the
24-year-old GP, something thathe profoundly didn't understand
have faith in the work.
Sonal (08:14):
Have faith in the work.
GP (08:15):
Instead of having faith in your talent, instead of having
faith in trying to please people, instead of having faith in the
kind of CV you built.
Those things will always workout, but the work will never
betray you.
(08:35):
And now I tell students neverlove a job, never love an
institution.
Honestly, they will not loveyou back.
Yes.
Never will Love people.
Yes, never will Love people.
Yes, love the work.
And the work brings you intocontact with people.
And think about who is my workfor?
Who am I delighting, who am Ihelping?
(09:00):
Who am I orienting?
Who am I elevating?
Who am I reass, reassuring, whoam I liberating with my work?
And focus on that?
Yes, and for me that's, and forme that's really what's shaped
my career as a professor.
Yes, and that's what has shaped, and you know know it's
(09:22):
interesting, it's shaped my viewof leadership.
Sonal (09:26):
Yes, yes, I just want to pause here.
This is one of the reasonsyou're so successful and I think
I said it in the intro and Iwill remind our listener you
were always the voted the mostnot like popular and fun and all
that, but the most impactfulprofessor almost every.
Not just that is like.
(09:47):
That makes it, that isaccessible, that makes you human
.
But it's not just that.
What I mean is it wasn't just apopularity contest, there's
substance, you know.
You know the substance and youknow screws down I'm fishing for
compliments but I'm giving youbecause it's it's uh, it's fun
here.
Have faith in the work and trustthe process.
Trust the process.
(10:08):
I say this to my clients Trustthe process.
More importantly, trustyourself.
I love that you said followgood people.
Don't always look at the work,the shiny company name and the
titles, because, guess what,they don't always love us back,
right.
But but people, people lovepeople.
(10:28):
I can't love by as much as Ilove my laptop and all the work
that it's love me back, um, andI, I love how you, how humble
you are here.
Your humility here reallyshines, gp, because it's like
you know you talk to uh.
I remember when I wasinterviewing a long time ago for
a job at a pharma company andthey they were really serious
about they're like we're patientcentric, it's patient care, and
(10:51):
I wish, I thought I wish therewould be more uh people like
that, because at the end of theday, it's the patients that
matter.
And here what you're saying islet's be clear, I got hired
because of the students, the,the students' opinion is the one
that matters, and you know I'mthinking like you know, that
(11:11):
checked coat with the circularelbow and all these academicians
like next academics next to thefireplace with their cigar,
People can get very, veryself-centeredcentered in general
and particularly academics canhave a reputation for.
GP (11:28):
But if you focus, so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna participate
in academia bashing simplybecause I've now kind of been in
other institutions not academicinstitutions and I, you and I
know people can getself-centered in any industry.
That's what.
I meant Every time they forgetEvery time we forget.
And I also want to say I'm noteven sure it was true, but I
(11:55):
think what matters is that thatwas my truth, because it shaped
my approach.
Because people spend a lot oftime thinking about their career
approach.
Because people spend a lot oftime thinking about their career
as opposed to what is my?
approach to doing the work andthe career for me is a
consequence of that, is aconsequence of that approach
(12:18):
unfolding over time in moreplaces, hopefully, with
different audiences, with morefinesse, with bigger, with
bigger scope, with moreresources.
And then suddenly, over time,you look back and say, oh, you
know, I remember at some point Icame up with this idea.
Oh my, the purpose of my work ishumanizing leadership, which is
(12:42):
now is the banner of everythingI do, right, making room for
all this messiness we haveinside us the complexity we have
inside us and the and theconflicts that there are around
us, making room for all thatmess inside and around people
and make it part of leadership,instead of making leadership
look so simple, so linear, sopure.
Um, but it's not like.
(13:02):
I started by saying, oh, I wantto be, I want a career in
humanizing leadership.
It kind of the words come afterevolved.
Sonal (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, I completely, I completely understand.
Um, this is fantastic.
I love the story of how you gotinto ins.
Yet and uh, jp, there was abrief period at harvard business
school and you you mentionedmentioned your wife as well and
dual careers, and I highlyrecommend to the reader.
I have the book, I have readthe book Couples that Work.
You should check that outbecause dual careers are a
(13:33):
reality in 2024.
GP (13:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think we and they have been.
Sonal (13:37):
Yeah, they have been for a while.
So talk to us about that periodat Harvard Business School.
What happened?
And you know it didn't lastthat long and you got
magnificent time.
GP (13:50):
Yeah, I mean it was a.
It was a.
It was a fabulous time.
I learned an incredible amountabout bringing together your
intellectual work, your teachingand your and your public
engagement, which I thoughtcolleagues there, that that that
(14:11):
piece.
I really.
I really learned that here andum, and Janet finished her PhD
and she was doing a postdocthere and so I got the
opportunity to teach the MBAsthere, um, with just some of the
some of the finest teachers, um, I've ever taught alongside
outside of NCED, um and um.
(14:34):
And then you know it was um,jen and I, uh, I mean we had a
very deliberate approach to ourcareers where we wanted well, we
had two small kids and wedidn't want to live apart.
There's many of our colleagueswho kind of live apart, but if
we could, we wanted a job in thesame institution because we
(14:55):
also caught or we enjoyedworking together, and if we
couldn't, we wanted a job ininstitutions in the same city so
we could at least live togetherand um, if not, who knows what
would have happened?
um but those are the two optionsand we were fortunate.
At the time things were going alittle better, we had a little
bit more um, marketability andum, and so instead hired jen and
(15:23):
there was no question for methat we were coming back the
instant she was hired.
I wouldn't have entertained anyother offer, because this is my
home.
Yeah.
What can I say?
I love you know you've been atINSEAD.
I love the idea of INSEAD, thisidea of bringing together
people, cultures, all that kindof stuff.
(15:43):
But this idea of bringingtogether this, it's a place
where there's a lot of peopletogether, people, cultures, all
that kind of stuff.
But this idea of bringingtogether this, it's a place
where there's a lot of peoplelike us, different nationalities
, strange backgrounds, among thestudents, among the faculty,
and so I feel I wanted to bepart of this idea and I wanted
this idea to be around me.
And, you know, they gave usboth jobs which was an
(16:05):
incredible blessing, I mean.
I cannot say how privileged weare for that, and you know we've
been able to.
And then they kept us.
We were able to progress in ourcareer, they gave us
interesting opportunities, theyhelped.
You know, I think INSEAD hasbeen a place where I've also
feel I've been able to build agroup of colleagues and
(16:28):
leadership development, acommunity, a group of coaches
that I think touches tons ofpeople and and where the you
know my work, I think you knowyou couldn't ask for better than
to find a place where your workcan deepen and broaden, and
this is what this place has beenfor me.
(16:49):
So you know we could spendanother five podcasts telling
you all the little indignitiesof institutional life, but for
me those are minutiae.
At the end of the day, the workis what matters, and if a place
allows you to do the work, theneverything else you put up with
it, and it's a little bit, ofcourse.
(17:10):
I've been here for 18 years now.
Yes.
And so I think you know I alwaysmake the joke you know your
dream job is when you don't haveit.
But then it's like when youmeet someone and you get
together and then you livetogether for a very long time.
Your love expands and evolvesand deepens.
(17:31):
But it's a more realistic.
It's not a romanticized,idealized love.
It's a realistic love in whichyou commit every day to the yes,
this, yes, this, no, I wanna.
You know you have to work at it.
And I think you know it's funnybecause I think you know you and
I are both interested incareers and this is one thing I
(17:53):
find often among students thatwhen they look at their romantic
choices, no one is waiting forPrince Charming, no one says, oh
, you know, I'm just gonna,maybe they think it, but you
know, meanwhile they know theyneed to kind of go out and look
and you know, and there's thisidea that love is something that
you have to cultivate.
But when it comes to work,sometimes, especially in a place
(18:16):
like this, I'm sorry to sayelite institutions really
cultivate this idea of the dreamjob.
There's this idea that if Ifind a dream job, everything's
gonna be okay and if I don't,I'm gonna be devastated.
It doesn't work like that.
This, you know this wasn't mydream job yeah.
I bumped.
This wasn't, this was not mydream job.
I have made it.
(18:37):
Yes, it is now the best.
It's a job better than could Icould have dream yes and I've
made it and people have allowedme to make it, and it's in those
relationships that jobs aremade great.
And sometimes great jobs arebetter than dreams jobs because
(19:00):
they make you discover youredges, they make you discover
your depth, they push you toplaces where you sometimes are a
little bit uncomfortable and um.
Sonal (19:12):
I love that.
I think, um, the 25 year old GP, when he would see you today, I
mean, like you said, he youknow he would feel relief and
he'd be like, oh dude, you're inpretty good shape for an old
man.
All of that stuff aside, Ithink he wouldn't have ever
imagined.
Because we don't know, at thattime, right, you let it unfold,
(19:34):
you surrendered.
Of course, you put in the work.
You weren't just sitting therewaiting for things to happen,
but you said yes toopportunities.
Even when you didn't say yes toopportunities, some a loved one
snuck behind your back and saidyes to the opportunity you
surrendered.
So that's beautiful.
GP (19:50):
You know that's interesting.
Maybe that's in my capacity tosurrender oh man, that takes
courage.
Sonal (19:59):
Surrendering is hard, because our ego is like hey not
easily I don't surrender easilyyeah yeah but I can't surrender.
It doesn't come easily, but, ohmy gosh, it is.
It is, it is worth it.
Um, you hinted at this gp.
I want to talk about that lword.
I want to talk about leadership, because so much of your
research and teaching is aboutleading in.
(20:22):
You know diverse, fast-changingand uncertain environments at
work, so I know that thisquestion could literally take us
the whole day.
Yeah, um, not just one you knowtiny part of a podcast episode,
but tell us about somefundamental principles that have
(20:42):
always been relevant and willcontinue to be relevant in terms
of how we, learning from youdirectly, can each of us be a
better leader I'll do somethingI'm not good at.
GP (20:59):
I'll give you a short answer .
Um, I, when you said the l word, I thought thought you were you
were talking about love.
Uh, that's the L word for me,and, and I think, um, you know,
I've said it many times, I'vewritten about, for me,
leadership is a kind of love,and so if there's a principle
that I'm I always try to impressis this leadership is a
(21:23):
relationship, it's not aposition, it's not a set of
skills, it is a relationship.
It's not a position, it's not aset of skills, it's a
relationship.
So the simplest piece of adviceand it's really all we've been
talking about is the secret of ahealthy relationship is honesty
(21:43):
and some degree of consistency.
So, find what you care about,find who you care about, and
show it.
Show it, yeah.
Say this is.
(22:04):
And, um, you know, live withthe vulnerability that comes
with it.
You know, yeah, show it, show.
I mean, so often people thinkof leadership in such technical
and stylistic way.
Leadership is I care about this, I care about us, and I want
this to be possible for us, andI'm gonna do whatever I can.
(22:31):
I'm gonna bring whatever I'vegot in my heart, in my mind, in
my body to this and us.
That's what love is I don't.
Sonal (22:41):
I love this.
Find what you care about, findwho you care about and just
simply show it.
Don't I love this?
Find what you care about, findwho you care about and just
simply show it.
Don't have to overthink it, andI love that you have.
GP (22:53):
And surrender to it and surrender to it.
Oh yeah, I care about this, butfor now I should also do a bit
more of something else.
I care about this person, but Ialso want to make sure I spend.
I also don't want to be seen astoo close to this person
because then people might thinkthese people might then be
suspicious of me surrender letgo, man.
(23:16):
That's it, that's this is mywork.
Yeah, this is my work.
Sonal (23:19):
This is my people yes, yes, um you'll never be
incompetent yeah.
You'll never be incompetent.
Yeah.
GP (23:27):
You'll never be alone, and it's very hard to have a good
career if you're incompetent, ifyou're alone provocative here,
but I love that you have theword love here.
Sonal (23:47):
Um, and I've had another guest on the show.
In fact, at the time of ourrecording it's released today
it's.
I don't believe in any suchthing as a coincidence.
Her name is claire harbour.
You were on her podcast and youtalked about the art you talked
about the art of leadership andshe started a company called
love works, and it's all aboutlove as well, and I know you're
a very collaborative personbecause you, you, you, you, you
admired this quality in Armenia,ibarra, which means you have it
(24:08):
inside you, right.
So I want to give a quick shoutout to Claire, because I think
we need to talk about the heartBig shout out to Claire At work.
GP (24:14):
Big shout out to Claire, yeah.
Sonal (24:15):
Claire's lovely.
I love her, and also the.
We don't have to be.
This work is like this andserious, and put on a suit and
come home Like I can't wait tostrip all of those layers.
Why can't we have fun in both?
GP (24:28):
Well, and it's also.
I mean, look, I think nowcompanies have become very, very
adamant in their rhetoric.
You know, we want you to bepassionate at work and all that,
and so we need to learn alsohow to deal once you bring
passion to work.
I mean, passion can make you dostupid things, it can make you
get hurt, it can disappear, andso for me, you know, I'm much
(24:51):
more interested in care, becauseit's care is what happens when
passion lasts and morphs youknow, passion is relatively
fickle, but when it it turnsinto care, then it can last a
very, a very long time.
(25:12):
And I think you know all theseideas around and I think there's
now a growing communitythinking about how do we
understand work as arelationship with an activity,
with other people, with aninstitutions, and how do we
conduct ourselves in thoserelationships in a way that is
that has dignity, that has care,that is responsible, yes, that
is, that is playful and that isfun.
(25:32):
And sometimes how do we breakup?
how do we break up and um, andthe answer to that is always
friends find, friends sometimesfind friends find, find the
village, the village that willget you through 100.
Sonal (25:46):
okay, now I want to talk to you.
It'll be a juicy questioncoming up and I I know we've
gone over time, but this is soworth it, this is so worth it.
I want to talk to you aboutyour thoughts on this.
Uh, the feeling of being lostor being stuck, and particularly
, you know, when, um, all of usdo this at some point or the
other.
We don't like to admit, but wedo compare ourselves with our
(26:08):
fellow classmates, fellow youknow so peers, and there can be
a sense of disappointment, youknow, who knows, maybe even
jealousy, envy, shame, all ofthose feelings when we get into
that comparison loop.
And I do want to quote a very,very little piece of an article
you wrote in the HarvardBusiness Review a while ago,
(26:31):
quite a while ago, and this iswhat you said For all the value
we put on plans and pursuits,what makes us who we are is
often what we do with life'ssurprises is often what we do
with life's surprises.
Temptations don't always pointto what we really want, but
(26:53):
often hint towards who we aretrying to become, and maturity
is not the ability to pursue orsuppress them.
Instead, it's the ability totake them seriously without
always taking them literallyliterally yeah do you sometimes
like read your work and you'relike, wow, who wrote that?
(27:14):
that was smart?
So what are your thoughts whensomeone who's like listening to
you today and thinking they'refeeling like they're feeling
really good listening to usright now, but their reality?
GP (27:25):
maybe they're thinking they're a bit lost or stuck
somewhere so no, I don't read mywork and think, oh, that's
smart.
I mostly read my work and think, oh, I should have written it
better and that sounds sopresumptuous and and all of that
.
So I do know that feeling ofgetting lost and stuck and
comparing yourself and and Icall it the voice.
You know, we all, we all battlewith it.
(27:47):
You know, look, I think anyonewho has talent, who has
opportunities, always livesunless they're completely
deluded, which I try not to bealways lives in a gap.
I constantly live in the gapbetween what I think I should be
(28:11):
able to accomplish and offerthe world and what I'm actually
able to accomplish and offer theworld.
And in that gap it's easy toget lost, it's easy to get stuck
and it's easy to kind of becomeoverwhelmed with the voice that
says, look, he's published morepapers and you know she's
getting more speakingopportunities and you know that
(28:33):
person you know would have saidand can you listen to yourself?
when you're talking in thispodcast, you say, you know all
the time you're not articulate,you're, you say, and I'm, and I
hear so many other people whospeak so fluently.
There's always that constantsense of comparison, the gap.
You fall into the gap and youstart hearing the voice and
(28:58):
you've got to battle that voiceand the only way to battle that
voice is finding friends.
And this is where it'simportant, you see, and I think
this is a byproduct.
So, because we are so obsessedwith the career and the
institution, then these peoplearound us are competitors.
(29:18):
Are they better or more of me?
And if we forgot, if weremember for a second, uh-uh,
we're.
These are my people, and thisis a thing that I learned from
my dad.
I wish I had a little bit ofthat.
He was really very rarely.
He was really very rarelyenvious of someone who was good
(29:43):
at something and in fact, healways told me your dad.
Sonal (29:45):
He told you about your dad.
GP (29:46):
He was always, he, always.
I remember when I was young andthis is one of the best lessons
I got he always told me, like,find the people who are good and
copy them, like don't.
And he always gave me this idealike you know, don't, don't
compare yourself.
And I kind of do this all thetime I look.
So this is a class like whenyou're a writer, right, you know
, you start writing a paper.
(30:08):
And when I started writing a, apaper, I read a lot of what
other people have written and Iread their published papers and
immediately think like, oh mygod, I could have ever gonna be
able to do this.
And and I know now because Iknow people read my stuff and
and of course, it's brilliantbut this is what happens.
I'm comparing my first draft tothe piece that someone has
(30:30):
finished, you know, five yearslater, yeah and that's.
And so I think this gets caught.
This is very important, becauseambitious people usually find,
you know, very good role models,but then they compare
themselves to those role models.
Now, when I think of myself,when I started teaching, I
(30:50):
wasn't good enough.
I wasn't as good as this, andit was really kind of difficult
for me to understand Me.
In 20 years, I'm better thanmost of the people I was
compared to at the time, butthat's not incompatible with the
(31:11):
fact that then I wasn't goodenough.
And so I think what we do inthat moment in which we actually
make a comparison, an accuratecomparison in which we are
falling short, is crucial, andfor me it's almost impossible.
This is why I evoke my dadright In this moment of the
conversation.
What that's about?
(31:32):
Because it's almost impossibleto be at the bottom of a social
comparison and be aspirationalunless we have someone that
reminds us.
But in the work, you could belike that, like that, yeah, and
(31:55):
so for me, in that moment we arenot lacking confidence.
Sonal (31:59):
We are not lacking courage.
GP (32:00):
We are lacking friends, because every time this is yeah,
it really is, it really is.
Don't you, don't fight thevoice on your own.
You find the voice with thevoice of someone who loves you,
yes, says yeah, they're prettygood if and they're, if, they're
really good friend.
They don't tell you, oh no,they're crap.
They're also strong.
Sonal (32:20):
They say yeah but those are not.
Those are not friends.
GP (32:23):
Uh no, they're pretty good friends what would it take for
you to be like that and whatwould you have to give up?
What would you have to give up?
Yes, that's a powerful question.
What would you have to give up?
What would you have to give up?
Sonal (32:31):
yes, that's a powerful question, you know what?
GP (32:34):
would you have to give up?
That's, that's extremelyimportant, yes, and I think for
me, you know, and I think for methe answer is, um, you know?
Look, I'm a big friend ofself-reflection, of becoming
becoming more confident and allof that.
But what's been true for me isevery time you're in that moment
(32:57):
where you are alone with thevoice that makes you feel lost
and makes you feel stuck, thatdiminishes you, you need to
reach out.
Sometimes we can't holdourselves.
We need others to hold us.
Sonal (33:16):
We can be our worst enemy , a hundred percent.
And I think my coach told methis.
She's, her name is Maggie andthere is a bully voice.
She calls her Marge.
She's even gone to AI and shehas a diagram of a very you know
, like in Matilda, that reallyangry matron woman and she's
(33:36):
like shut up, marge, not today,marge.
That voice and I have, I thinkher name is Sonia and she's just
so judgmental all the time.
I'm like not today, sonia, shutup.
Not today, sonia.
GP (33:49):
So that voice, I don't know anyone who probably does not
have that voice, everyone hasthat voice and I also think you
know, to be honest, to befriendly to the voice, because I
think we shouldn't kind ofdemonize.
Sure, the voice is often anenemy If it comes from a place
of, you know, belittling andinsecurity.
(34:12):
Occasionally, the voice istalking to you Because you're
not honoring who you could beand the voice is angry and it's
a very dysfunctional way, and soyou got to talk back to the
(34:36):
voice and say, okay, I'm willingto listen if you say it in a
caring way yeah, yeah yeah, Ihad um yeah, you know I, one of
the people that had influencedon me as a as a kid, was my
athletics coach, and you know Iwas always talented academically
(35:00):
and it was good for me to dosports because I was very
untalented and my coach used totell me make sure you focus on
school, because you ain't goingto the Olympics it's very
important, but I love doingsomething where I wasn't good at
it, because it forced me tokind of, you know, focus on
little improvements and all ofthat.
And he always said verybrutally in athletics there's
(35:21):
two kind of people those thatcry in the training and laugh in
the race and those that laughin the training and cry in the
race.
Sonal (35:29):
And there was a laugh in the training and cry in the race
.
GP (35:31):
So try in the training.
You know, push yourself andthen you will have the
confidence.
And the confidence won't comefrom I am good.
The confidence will come fromI've put in the work and then
the work I've used, you knowthat served me so well.
You know I am I the nightbefore I go to a new class.
(35:51):
So now I never sleep becausejust because you know my classes
have gone well before, itdoesn't mean this time it's
going to work out.
You know, maybe I'm, you knowI'm all, you know over the hill,
who knows?
And I, and I've now learnedthat everyone was good.
You know they, they're, they'retortured.
(36:12):
Before that moment's all new.
You have to restart fromscratch and all that and um.
And I don't tell myself I'mgood at this.
You know I won teaching awards.
Who cares about that?
I tell myself I have put in thework, so there's nothing else I
can do now.
I have to treat myself withkindness.
So I treat myself prettyharshly in the moments when I'm
(36:32):
trying to develop.
I hold myself accountable, Igive myself stretch goals, I
berate myself if I slack off andand all of that.
But when you go to that jobinterview, when you go to the
class, when you go to that bigmeeting, that's the moment to
say I put, put in the work.
I have 50.
I'm going to give 50.
I have 80.
(36:53):
I'm going to give 80.
I have 120.
I'm going to give 120.
That I've learned from sports.
That's such a skill to be atthe starting line, yeah, and say
I'm all in.
Sonal (37:08):
I'm going to give what I've got.
GP (37:10):
And the voice then doesn't make you what you've got.
The voice needs to be kinder.
The voice needs to say come on,you can do it.
Yeah, and sometimes I talk backto the voice.
The voice says you suck and Isay do you mean to say you can
do better?
That'd be a little bit nicer.
You know that's reframingfriends.
(37:34):
Yeah, reframing be.
Make friends with the voice andmaybe it treats you more kindly
.
Sonal (37:36):
I think the friend part is so important and so under,
even though it sounds veryobvious to every single person,
it's not obvious and I thinkthat someone listening today is
probably thinking do I need todo a little bit of an audit of
my social circles?
Because, because there will bepeople and I know this because I
work with my clients and mystudents there will be people
who'll say, really, that's nevergonna work.
(37:59):
Create content on linkedin oryoutube, you're gonna be the
laughing stock.
That's not a friend, that'ssomeone who's threatened by you.
So you want to find that groupthat loves you no matter what,
even if you fall flat on yourface.
GP (38:15):
Then they'll be like, hey, we'll, we'll get you there, I
got you yeah, they're threatenedby you, or that's the way they
talk to themselves, which iswhich is pretty sad, which is,
awful, which is sad.
Can I pitch one thing?
Yes, I've.
Actually, one of my favoritepieces of writing is one of my
latest articles and it's onfriendship and it's called how
(38:37):
to Make Better Friends at Workand it really makes that
distinction we are talking about.
We actually sometimes have toomany friends who are friends of
our performance, who keep us theway we are, and then we have a
few friends that kind of say ohyou know, try it.
I mean, at the end of the day,take a few risks, you know
(38:59):
that's the.
You see what what the voicedoes is.
It makes it very difficult tostay with your truth and to take
a few risks for your truth andfor the people you care about
yeah and I think the kind offriends that really matter are
those friends I call themfriends of your learning, yeah,
(39:21):
friends of your performance,those friends that help you
close the gap not between theworst that could happen and
normal, but the friends thathelp you close the gap between
normal and the best that couldhappen.
Sonal (39:34):
And the greatness?
Yeah, yeah, they don't reassureyou.
GP (39:38):
They don't reassure you.
And you see, this is what thepeople I mentioned earlier all
did for me.
They didn't reassure me, theyactually put me in positions
where I was more stretched, butthey imagined me and then I
could make a choice whether toput in the work to become that
or to give up.
I'm glad I have done that.
Sonal (40:00):
No, I'm a hundred percent .
I'm so glad you talked aboutfriends, because so many times
we can have peer mentors.
When somebody thinks of amentor, we think of someone
who's older, wiser, 50 stepsahead of us.
Those micro mentorship momentscan come in any shape or form,
even from like high schoolfriends or you know absolutely
friends who are five years, tenyears younger to you, graduated
from a different class, an MBAdoesn't matter.
(40:21):
But they see, see, they seesomething in you that you don't
even imagine in yourself.
And that is the call, right,that is the call that you gotta
answer, the call jp.
Oh my gosh, uh, time has flown.
Um, I want to ask you this onequestion that I ask every single
guest, and that is when youlook back on your beautiful,
(40:45):
glorious career, I'm imaginingyou in 1999, you know, in that
classroom, these 25 years, 25odd years, is there one standout
, defining moment thatsupercharged your career and
helped you to move closer towhere you are today?
GP (41:09):
I mean.
I mean I would betrayeverything I believe in and
study and write about, and teachif I said there is just a
single moment.
And, as I've said, it's aseries of encounters, and every
encounter has helped me becomethe person I became, and then we
(41:37):
can call it a career.
But it's also beyond, you know,any of those encounters I've
spoken about, um, but if I hadto pick one, of course, was if I
had to pick, one, of course,was.
Jennifer, that changedeverything.
That changed everything Because, although you know it was a
work relationship, it was aromantic relationship.
(41:59):
It still is a work relationship.
It still is a romanticrelationship.
We're now parents of childrenand all that, but it was also a
moment that changed myrelationship with work because
work so was so everything and Ihad relationships before that I
(42:21):
regret.
I was so just, um, I was just sounavailable because work so, so
central.
I was so anxious about myselfand me at work and what was
happening at my work.
And I think meeting Jennifergave me the kind of confidence
and the roots to somehow realizethat there were other parts of
(42:45):
life that were as important aswork.
And then, paradoxically, thenit made my work a lot deeper.
It grounded me.
It grounded me and I think youknow it was almost the
(43:15):
archetypal developmentalencounter for me, right when you
find a home and then suddenlyyou can grow in that place.
You know a home place where youcan be safe and free, and that
was that for me.
And then, of course, you knoweverything we've done together.
You know a lot of my work isreally our work and, um and uh,
you know being able to do itwhile also you know enjoying the
(43:37):
ups and downs, the rollercoaster of life, uh, with
someone that you feel is apartner is a big, is a big part
and, um, yeah, so that was thatwas.
That was the moment um manyother you know, and then I, but
I don't want that to shutovershadow all the other moments
(43:58):
we talked about.
Um, you know that that thatclass of 2006, the, you know
still when I walk in now in thatclassroom where I used I taught
my first class I still.
I still remember and that'sstill like a place where I feel
(44:21):
like my spirit will will remainthere for a long time
collectively they shaped right.
Collectively they kind ofshaped who you are today without
that moment, you know they opena door for me that you know I
would never, I would never beable to be, and it's not a point
to give, it's not a kind of,it's not a given thing, but you
know it's no, it's beautiful.
(44:43):
They open the door for you and Ibelieved and I also believed.
You know they made me believe Icould be who I'd been told I
couldn't, and just I couldn't,be more grateful for that.
It's so healing and ever sinceI've had other moments where
(45:03):
people have told me I couldn'tbe this or I couldn't be that,
and I've learned well to takewith a grain of salt.
But when you're at thebeginning of your career, when
people tell you who you can andcannot be, it's harder.
Sonal (45:18):
Yeah, no, you take it more literally.
This is beautiful.
And you're saying the class ofyou know, 2006, december,
because you started in January2006, and this is the graduating
class.
12 months later, you said theyopened a door for you.
They opened a door for youwhich had been shut on your face
.
Let's be clear a couple oftimes already.
GP (45:39):
And and you know you, went there you said I don't believe
that.
I don't believe that.
I don't think it hadn't beenshut on my face.
It had kind of been held ajar.
I couldn't just squeeze throughto get inside kind of.
They kind of pushed it open.
Sonal (45:54):
Yeah no, I got a shot on my face otherwise I wouldn't
have been no.
When you said no, what I'm whatI meant is when you said that,
oh, you're neither here northere.
We can't put you in a box.
GP (46:05):
That's what I meant yeah, and here you are, I think it.
You know the door.
I've been sometimes and this issometimes.
I find sometimes in careersthis is frustrating because you
know, an open door is fine and adoor shut on your face is also
fine, at least it's clear.
But sometimes there are thesedoors that are kind of ajar or
(46:25):
someone told you no, we left itopen for you.
But then you, you, you kind ofturn the the thing and it's
locked and they, I mean I dothis, I do this for my children.
Sometimes you know we left itopen for you, but then you, you,
you kind of turn the the thingand it's locked and they, I mean
, I do this, I do this for mychildren.
Sometimes, you know, I forgetI'm busy thinking of something,
I left the door open for you andthen I, I lock it because in my
reflex, and then I get thispanic call what did you do?
You know?
And sometimes in careers thereare those people you know they
(46:46):
mean to leave the door open foryou, but then they're so used to
keeping it shut, becausethey've been taught to keep it
shut, that you kind of find thedoor shut and they didn't mean
it.
They wanted to open it for you,but it was their habits to keep
it shut to people like you, soit's tricky.
Sonal (47:03):
I love this.
I love this answer.
I love that you're crediting awhole class for one of the
reasons you're so successfultoday, but also that you met
your wife.
I think I've done, at the pointof publishing this episode, I
think 135 episodes already, 135interviews.
Yours is probably the.
Of course, it's GP who saidthis the first time.
(47:23):
This is the first time I'veheard this answer.
The day, you know, I met mywife and everything that's
happened ever since.
I credit a lot of my success toher.
I love this answer, and youclearly are.
I mean, insead is lucky thatyou both are there.
I'm just going to say it.
Okay, amazing, gp, so I'm goingto link your website.
(47:46):
I'm going to link your articlethat you talked about on
friendship.
I'm going to Google it and I'mgoing to link the article.
Your article that you talkedabout on friendship.
I'm going to google it and I'mgoing to link it.
I'm going to link your LinkedInprofile.
Is there any other way we canespecially those of us who
didn't have the fortune of goingto INSEAD?
Is there any other way we canlearn more about you and follow
your work?
GP (48:06):
I saw on my website and LinkedIn is where I put
everything new.
Yeah, everything is on thewebsite the research, the essays
, the videos.
So that's really the placewhere I put everything, and
LinkedIn.
Now, this is fine and you know,come to INSEAD or invite me to
your company or something likethat, and I'll, and I'll be
(48:30):
there.
Sonal (48:30):
Yeah, yeah, you want to get thoughts on leadership and
you want to get like modern waysof thinking about leadership
and bring heart into theconversation.
Gp is your guy, so definitelymake sure you reach out to him.
I'll put all the links into theshow notes.
Gp, this has been such apleasure.
It's been long overdue.
You talked about misfits.
(48:51):
I felt like such a misfit at mytime at INSEAD.
Your presence and you know youhad this PowerPoint when we were
there at the reunion and youtalked about sometimes, you know
, you don't, just you don't evenhave to, you just have to be.
What was that?
You have to be awake.
Do you remember that one?
Yeah, you don't need to be.
What was that?
You have to be awake.
Do you remember that one?
GP (49:11):
Yeah, you don't need to be perfect, you need to be awake,
you don't need to be perfect,you need to be awake.
Sonal (49:15):
You were there and you were non-judgmental and you were
like, yeah, it's a pleasure,it's been great teaching you.
You have no idea how impactfulthat was, and it also helps that
I think I got an A in one ofyour papers.
In leading people in groups, Istill remember that.
It validated a lot of what Iwas going through at the time.
(49:36):
But this is so emotional for me.
So thank you so much for yourhonesty, your vulnerability,
your humanity.
What was the word you used?
Emotional honesty.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for being here and andwish you continued success at
incia and beyond you werebrilliant then and you still are
(49:59):
hey, you made it to the end andthat means a lot to me because
you could have been listening toa bajillion other things, so
this likely means you enjoyedthe episode.
So I recommend that you hitfollow on the app you were
listening this podcast on andshare it with a friend who could
use some career inspiration.
(50:19):
Come on, sharing is caring,right.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with me today and catch you
next time on how I Got Hired.
Hey there, welcome to the how I Got Hired podcast.
I'm your host, sonal Behal,former HR director, founder of
Supercharge and corporatesurvivor of an epic career
roller coaster that started outin India, zipped through South
America and landed in Europe,and it's been such a wild ride
navigating visa, sponsorships,layoffs, recessions, all while
(00:27):
working in Spanish and French,which I learned on the fly
somehow, raising two kidssomehow, and sometimes just
trying to remember where Iparked my car.
Now, as a career strategist, Ibelieve a fulfilling career
isn't just for those with IvyLeague degrees or fancy
connections.
(00:48):
No, it's a right we all deserve.
That's why I'm here to bringyou top tier career advice
through coaching courses andthis very podcast where we meet
ordinary people like you and mewho share extraordinary stories
of career success, to prove thatif they can do it, you can do
(01:09):
it too.
So buckle up and get ready toget supercharged.
Hey, welcome back to myconversation with Gianpiero
Petriglieri, and we willcontinue where we left off.
We will talk about how exactlyGP got into INSEAD, and we will
continue with leadership andGP's definitions of leadership,
(01:31):
which I personally think arefascinating, and one of my
favorite parts of this interviewis the end, where you know this
question I ask every singleguest about what is that moment
that supercharged their career?
And GP's answer was so unique.
I've never heard anybody answerthis, so stay till the end
Without further ado, let's getinto it.
(01:53):
We like you, but there's no wecan't put you in a box there's
no box for you and um that'sthree.
It took 18 months for them tofigure it out.
GP (02:07):
There's nothing I can do.
And so at the time and you know, bless Herminia for kind of
keeping, try and keeping me inmind, and so this is what
happens.
And you know, this is actuallynot it's a public story because
it's in.
You know, jennifer Petriglieri,my wife, was also a colleague
here.
She's written a book on couplesand she's written this story in
(02:28):
her book how sometimes ourcareers are not changed just by
people we meet at work, but withpeople.
And although Jennifer is also acolleague people we have a
romantic relationship.
So at some point INSEAD, as acourse, leading people in groups
of b1 it's a core course inorganizational behavior yes and
(02:49):
like a month before the courseis about to start, a professor I
think gets sick and they haveno anyone to teach it and and
they're basically desperate.
So I get this email that saysyou know, you know what you know
.
We've gone back and forth a fewbut we thought it would be,
instead of kind of doing thenormal hiring process, why don't
you come to teach here so youcan spend a couple of months and
(03:11):
it'll be like flirting.
We can meet more of you and youknow you can meet more of us.
Yeah, dating, yeah, but this isa very asymmetric dating.
I am desperate for you whenyou're still trying to figure
out whether you want to see meagain.
So, anyway, I get this emailand this is where I was just so
(03:31):
hurt, I have been so upset, Ideleted it.
And so I, and you know, the dayafter I'm having breakfast with
Jennifer and we are chatting, Ilike you couldn't believe you
know these people.
I didn't say they rejected methree times and now they say you
know, can you come and teach infour weeks time?
You know, this is like the, the.
(03:55):
I mean imagine and she says,yeah, yeah, you know we chat and
then can we move on.
And then after breakfast shegoes in my email, finds the
email in the deleted folder andreplies when do I start what?
She comes to me and say youknow, look, I've done something.
(04:17):
And uh, you know, at the end ofthe day you've got to believe
in yourself like I believe inyou.
You know they will love you.
Let them see what you do.
They will love you.
And that's how I got my job.
I didn't say that I went toteach, hold on once you like,
live it with her, or you kind oflater realized you were
grateful, I mean in thosemoments so, first of all, you
(04:38):
know, jen and I are not verygood at being angry at each
other, but in that moment Irealized, you know, first of all
, this was an earlynon-religious nothing she would
have done wrong okay um second,you know she was right.
I don't really listen, but thereare some people that when this
(05:00):
she was right, I was I again,who was I thinking?
I was a nameless junior, I wasa nobody.
Okay, I was a 30-year-oldnobody you know thinking, oh you
know, I'm just going to turndown teaching a course.
I didn't say people die.
Sonal (05:23):
And here you're saying my feelings were hurt.
GP (05:26):
Yeah, my feelings were hurt, yeah, my feelings were hurt and
thank goodness, thank goodness,I had someone in my life who
realized it will be okay.
You're afraid.
You are afraid because that'swhat happens very often when we
are arrogant we are just afraidthe ego, when we, when the ego
leads, we are freaking out.
Sonal (05:45):
Oh my gosh, so then when you started?
What year is this?
When you started the coursethis?
GP (05:51):
is 2006.
This is January 2006.
We are there.
We are there, I'm teaching.
Sonal (05:59):
And they're observing.
They're observing one-sided,like you said.
And how was?
GP (06:03):
it, so I'm teaching almost every class.
Someone is coming to watch meteach.
Yeah.
By the end.
By the end the students arejust delightful, you know, by
the end it's kind of a love fest, know I?
think institutions need to dowhat they need to do, which is,
(06:26):
you know, they're designed to.
They're designed for conformity, but somehow sometimes they
have people, give them thecapacity to find someone that
might doesn't yet fit, thatmight fit.
And so, you know, theinstitution did not mean what I
think was supposed to do, and so, you know, the institution did
with me what I think wassupposed to do, but what it gave
(06:47):
me was a profound gift, that Ihad a realization.
The people who hired me werethe students.
I work for the students, Iwrite for people out there, you
see, and so many academicsbecause they go through the
(07:10):
progression.
They think the people who have,like I, have to impress a few
peers.
Sonal (07:16):
Fellow academics.
GP (07:16):
Yeah, I have to be, you know , I have to live, you know it's
very.
Academia can become veryinternally focused because, of
course, our judgment of eachother matters so much.
Yes.
We can make or break our career, and it was true even for me,
of course.
But the fact that the studentsthat I got my job that way made
(07:39):
me realize it's the work.
Yes, the work has to comebefore everything, before
pleasing, before status, beforenetworking, before all the other
stuff that really matters yes,the work has to be found.
Do the work, and in fact, thisis the thing.
The most important thing is notwhat the 24 year old gp say to
(08:02):
me.
The most most important thingis what I would say to the
24-year-old GP, something thathe profoundly didn't understand
have faith in the work.
Sonal (08:14):
Have faith in the work.
GP (08:15):
Instead of having faith in your talent, instead of having
faith in trying to please people, instead of having faith in the
kind of CV you built.
Those things will always workout, but the work will never
betray you.
(08:35):
And now I tell students neverlove a job, never love an
institution.
Honestly, they will not loveyou back.
Yes.
Never will Love people.
Yes, never will Love people.
Yes, love the work.
And the work brings you intocontact with people.
And think about who is my workfor?
Who am I delighting, who am Ihelping?
(09:00):
Who am I orienting?
Who am I elevating?
Who am I reass, reassuring, whoam I liberating with my work?
And focus on that?
Yes, and for me that's, and forme that's really what's shaped
my career as a professor.
Yes, and that's what has shaped, and you know know it's
(09:22):
interesting, it's shaped my viewof leadership.
Sonal (09:26):
Yes, yes, I just want to pause here.
This is one of the reasonsyou're so successful and I think
I said it in the intro and Iwill remind our listener you
were always the voted the mostnot like popular and fun and all
that, but the most impactfulprofessor almost every.
Not just that is like.
(09:47):
That makes it, that isaccessible, that makes you human
.
But it's not just that.
What I mean is it wasn't just apopularity contest, there's
substance, you know.
You know the substance and youknow screws down I'm fishing for
compliments but I'm giving youbecause it's it's uh, it's fun
here.
Have faith in the work and trustthe process.
Trust the process.
(10:08):
I say this to my clients Trustthe process.
More importantly, trustyourself.
I love that you said followgood people.
Don't always look at the work,the shiny company name and the
titles, because, guess what,they don't always love us back,
right.
But but people, people lovepeople.
(10:28):
I can't love by as much as Ilove my laptop and all the work
that it's love me back, um, andI, I love how you, how humble
you are here.
Your humility here reallyshines, gp, because it's like
you know you talk to uh.
I remember when I wasinterviewing a long time ago for
a job at a pharma company andthey they were really serious
about they're like we're patientcentric, it's patient care, and
(10:51):
I wish, I thought I wish therewould be more uh people like
that, because at the end of theday, it's the patients that
matter.
And here what you're saying islet's be clear, I got hired
because of the students, the,the students' opinion is the one
that matters, and you know I'mthinking like you know, that
(11:11):
checked coat with the circularelbow and all these academicians
like next academics next to thefireplace with their cigar,
People can get very, veryself-centeredcentered in general
and particularly academics canhave a reputation for.
GP (11:28):
But if you focus, so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna participate
in academia bashing simplybecause I've now kind of been in
other institutions not academicinstitutions and I, you and I
know people can getself-centered in any industry.
That's what.
I meant Every time they forgetEvery time we forget.
And I also want to say I'm noteven sure it was true, but I
(11:55):
think what matters is that thatwas my truth, because it shaped
my approach.
Because people spend a lot oftime thinking about their career
approach.
Because people spend a lot oftime thinking about their career
as opposed to what is my?
approach to doing the work andthe career for me is a
consequence of that, is aconsequence of that approach
(12:18):
unfolding over time in moreplaces, hopefully, with
different audiences, with morefinesse, with bigger, with
bigger scope, with moreresources.
And then suddenly, over time,you look back and say, oh, you
know, I remember at some point Icame up with this idea.
Oh my, the purpose of my work ishumanizing leadership, which is
(12:42):
now is the banner of everythingI do, right, making room for
all this messiness we haveinside us the complexity we have
inside us and the and theconflicts that there are around
us, making room for all thatmess inside and around people
and make it part of leadership,instead of making leadership
look so simple, so linear, sopure.
Um, but it's not like.
(13:02):
I started by saying, oh, I wantto be, I want a career in
humanizing leadership.
It kind of the words come afterevolved.
Sonal (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, I completely, I completely understand.
Um, this is fantastic.
I love the story of how you gotinto ins.
Yet and uh, jp, there was abrief period at harvard business
school and you you mentionedmentioned your wife as well and
dual careers, and I highlyrecommend to the reader.
I have the book, I have readthe book Couples that Work.
You should check that outbecause dual careers are a
(13:33):
reality in 2024.
GP (13:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think we and they have been.
Sonal (13:37):
Yeah, they have been for a while.
So talk to us about that periodat Harvard Business School.
What happened?
And you know it didn't lastthat long and you got
magnificent time.
GP (13:50):
Yeah, I mean it was a.
It was a.
It was a fabulous time.
I learned an incredible amountabout bringing together your
intellectual work, your teachingand your and your public
engagement, which I thoughtcolleagues there, that that that
(14:11):
piece.
I really.
I really learned that here andum, and Janet finished her PhD
and she was doing a postdocthere and so I got the
opportunity to teach the MBAsthere, um, with just some of the
some of the finest teachers, um, I've ever taught alongside
outside of NCED, um and um.
(14:34):
And then you know it was um,jen and I, uh, I mean we had a
very deliberate approach to ourcareers where we wanted well, we
had two small kids and wedidn't want to live apart.
There's many of our colleagueswho kind of live apart, but if
we could, we wanted a job in thesame institution because we
(14:55):
also caught or we enjoyedworking together, and if we
couldn't, we wanted a job ininstitutions in the same city so
we could at least live togetherand um, if not, who knows what
would have happened?
um but those are the two optionsand we were fortunate.
At the time things were going alittle better, we had a little
bit more um, marketability andum, and so instead hired jen and
(15:23):
there was no question for methat we were coming back the
instant she was hired.
I wouldn't have entertained anyother offer, because this is my
home.
Yeah.
What can I say?
I love you know you've been atINSEAD.
I love the idea of INSEAD, thisidea of bringing together
people, cultures, all that kindof stuff.
(15:43):
But this idea of bringingtogether this, it's a place
where there's a lot of peopletogether, people, cultures, all
that kind of stuff.
But this idea of bringingtogether this, it's a place
where there's a lot of peoplelike us, different nationalities
, strange backgrounds, among thestudents, among the faculty,
and so I feel I wanted to bepart of this idea and I wanted
this idea to be around me.
And, you know, they gave usboth jobs which was an
(16:05):
incredible blessing, I mean.
I cannot say how privileged weare for that, and you know we've
been able to.
And then they kept us.
We were able to progress in ourcareer, they gave us
interesting opportunities, theyhelped.
You know, I think INSEAD hasbeen a place where I've also
feel I've been able to build agroup of colleagues and
(16:28):
leadership development, acommunity, a group of coaches
that I think touches tons ofpeople and and where the you
know my work, I think you knowyou couldn't ask for better than
to find a place where your workcan deepen and broaden, and
this is what this place has beenfor me.
(16:49):
So you know we could spendanother five podcasts telling
you all the little indignitiesof institutional life, but for
me those are minutiae.
At the end of the day, the workis what matters, and if a place
allows you to do the work, theneverything else you put up with
it, and it's a little bit, ofcourse.
(17:10):
I've been here for 18 years now.
Yes.
And so I think you know I alwaysmake the joke you know your
dream job is when you don't haveit.
But then it's like when youmeet someone and you get
together and then you livetogether for a very long time.
Your love expands and evolvesand deepens.
(17:31):
But it's a more realistic.
It's not a romanticized,idealized love.
It's a realistic love in whichyou commit every day to the yes,
this, yes, this, no, I wanna.
You know you have to work at it.
And I think you know it's funnybecause I think you know you and
I are both interested incareers and this is one thing I
(17:53):
find often among students thatwhen they look at their romantic
choices, no one is waiting forPrince Charming, no one says, oh
, you know, I'm just gonna,maybe they think it, but you
know, meanwhile they know theyneed to kind of go out and look
and you know, and there's thisidea that love is something that
you have to cultivate.
But when it comes to work,sometimes, especially in a place
(18:16):
like this, I'm sorry to sayelite institutions really
cultivate this idea of the dreamjob.
There's this idea that if Ifind a dream job, everything's
gonna be okay and if I don't,I'm gonna be devastated.
It doesn't work like that.
This, you know this wasn't mydream job yeah.
I bumped.
This wasn't, this was not mydream job.
I have made it.
(18:37):
Yes, it is now the best.
It's a job better than could Icould have dream yes and I've
made it and people have allowedme to make it, and it's in those
relationships that jobs aremade great.
And sometimes great jobs arebetter than dreams jobs because
(19:00):
they make you discover youredges, they make you discover
your depth, they push you toplaces where you sometimes are a
little bit uncomfortable and um.
Sonal (19:12):
I love that.
I think, um, the 25 year old GP, when he would see you today, I
mean, like you said, he youknow he would feel relief and
he'd be like, oh dude, you're inpretty good shape for an old
man.
All of that stuff aside, Ithink he wouldn't have ever
imagined.
Because we don't know, at thattime, right, you let it unfold,
(19:34):
you surrendered.
Of course, you put in the work.
You weren't just sitting therewaiting for things to happen,
but you said yes toopportunities.
Even when you didn't say yes toopportunities, some a loved one
snuck behind your back and saidyes to the opportunity you
surrendered.
So that's beautiful.
GP (19:50):
You know that's interesting.
Maybe that's in my capacity tosurrender oh man, that takes
courage.
Sonal (19:59):
Surrendering is hard, because our ego is like hey not
easily I don't surrender easilyyeah yeah but I can't surrender.
It doesn't come easily, but, ohmy gosh, it is.
It is, it is worth it.
Um, you hinted at this gp.
I want to talk about that lword.
I want to talk about leadership, because so much of your
research and teaching is aboutleading in.
(20:22):
You know diverse, fast-changingand uncertain environments at
work, so I know that thisquestion could literally take us
the whole day.
Yeah, um, not just one you knowtiny part of a podcast episode,
but tell us about somefundamental principles that have
(20:42):
always been relevant and willcontinue to be relevant in terms
of how we, learning from youdirectly, can each of us be a
better leader I'll do somethingI'm not good at.
GP (20:59):
I'll give you a short answer .
Um, I, when you said the l word, I thought thought you were you
were talking about love.
Uh, that's the L word for me,and, and I think, um, you know,
I've said it many times, I'vewritten about, for me,
leadership is a kind of love,and so if there's a principle
that I'm I always try to impressis this leadership is a
(21:23):
relationship, it's not aposition, it's not a set of
skills, it is a relationship.
It's not a position, it's not aset of skills, it's a
relationship.
So the simplest piece of adviceand it's really all we've been
talking about is the secret of ahealthy relationship is honesty
(21:43):
and some degree of consistency.
So, find what you care about,find who you care about, and
show it.
Show it, yeah.
Say this is.
(22:04):
And, um, you know, live withthe vulnerability that comes
with it.
You know, yeah, show it, show.
I mean, so often people thinkof leadership in such technical
and stylistic way.
Leadership is I care about this, I care about us, and I want
this to be possible for us, andI'm gonna do whatever I can.
(22:31):
I'm gonna bring whatever I'vegot in my heart, in my mind, in
my body to this and us.
That's what love is I don't.
Sonal (22:41):
I love this.
Find what you care about, findwho you care about and just
simply show it.
Don't I love this?
Find what you care about, findwho you care about and just
simply show it.
Don't have to overthink it, andI love that you have.
GP (22:53):
And surrender to it and surrender to it.
Oh yeah, I care about this, butfor now I should also do a bit
more of something else.
I care about this person, but Ialso want to make sure I spend.
I also don't want to be seen astoo close to this person
because then people might thinkthese people might then be
suspicious of me surrender letgo, man.
(23:16):
That's it, that's this is mywork.
Yeah, this is my work.
Sonal (23:19):
This is my people yes, yes, um you'll never be
incompetent yeah.
You'll never be incompetent.
Yeah.
GP (23:27):
You'll never be alone, and it's very hard to have a good
career if you're incompetent, ifyou're alone provocative here,
but I love that you have theword love here.
Sonal (23:47):
Um, and I've had another guest on the show.
In fact, at the time of ourrecording it's released today
it's.
I don't believe in any suchthing as a coincidence.
Her name is claire harbour.
You were on her podcast and youtalked about the art you talked
about the art of leadership andshe started a company called
love works, and it's all aboutlove as well, and I know you're
a very collaborative personbecause you, you, you, you, you
admired this quality in Armenia,ibarra, which means you have it
(24:08):
inside you, right.
So I want to give a quick shoutout to Claire, because I think
we need to talk about the heartBig shout out to Claire At work.
GP (24:14):
Big shout out to Claire, yeah.
Sonal (24:15):
Claire's lovely.
I love her, and also the.
We don't have to be.
This work is like this andserious, and put on a suit and
come home Like I can't wait tostrip all of those layers.
Why can't we have fun in both?
GP (24:28):
Well, and it's also.
I mean, look, I think nowcompanies have become very, very
adamant in their rhetoric.
You know, we want you to bepassionate at work and all that,
and so we need to learn alsohow to deal once you bring
passion to work.
I mean, passion can make you dostupid things, it can make you
get hurt, it can disappear, andso for me, you know, I'm much
(24:51):
more interested in care, becauseit's care is what happens when
passion lasts and morphs youknow, passion is relatively
fickle, but when it it turnsinto care, then it can last a
very, a very long time.
(25:12):
And I think you know all theseideas around and I think there's
now a growing communitythinking about how do we
understand work as arelationship with an activity,
with other people, with aninstitutions, and how do we
conduct ourselves in thoserelationships in a way that is
that has dignity, that has care,that is responsible, yes, that
is, that is playful and that isfun.
(25:32):
And sometimes how do we breakup?
how do we break up and um, andthe answer to that is always
friends find, friends sometimesfind friends find, find the
village, the village that willget you through 100.
Sonal (25:46):
okay, now I want to talk to you.
It'll be a juicy questioncoming up and I I know we've
gone over time, but this is soworth it, this is so worth it.
I want to talk to you aboutyour thoughts on this.
Uh, the feeling of being lostor being stuck, and particularly
, you know, when, um, all of usdo this at some point or the
other.
We don't like to admit, but wedo compare ourselves with our
(26:08):
fellow classmates, fellow youknow so peers, and there can be
a sense of disappointment, youknow, who knows, maybe even
jealousy, envy, shame, all ofthose feelings when we get into
that comparison loop.
And I do want to quote a very,very little piece of an article
you wrote in the HarvardBusiness Review a while ago,
(26:31):
quite a while ago, and this iswhat you said For all the value
we put on plans and pursuits,what makes us who we are is
often what we do with life'ssurprises is often what we do
with life's surprises.
Temptations don't always pointto what we really want, but
(26:53):
often hint towards who we aretrying to become, and maturity
is not the ability to pursue orsuppress them.
Instead, it's the ability totake them seriously without
always taking them literallyliterally yeah do you sometimes
like read your work and you'relike, wow, who wrote that?
(27:14):
that was smart?
So what are your thoughts whensomeone who's like listening to
you today and thinking they'refeeling like they're feeling
really good listening to usright now, but their reality?
GP (27:25):
maybe they're thinking they're a bit lost or stuck
somewhere so no, I don't read mywork and think, oh, that's
smart.
I mostly read my work and think, oh, I should have written it
better and that sounds sopresumptuous and and all of that
.
So I do know that feeling ofgetting lost and stuck and
comparing yourself and and Icall it the voice.
You know, we all, we all battlewith it.
(27:47):
You know, look, I think anyonewho has talent, who has
opportunities, always livesunless they're completely
deluded, which I try not to bealways lives in a gap.
I constantly live in the gapbetween what I think I should be
(28:11):
able to accomplish and offerthe world and what I'm actually
able to accomplish and offer theworld.
And in that gap it's easy toget lost, it's easy to get stuck
and it's easy to kind of becomeoverwhelmed with the voice that
says, look, he's published morepapers and you know she's
getting more speakingopportunities and you know that
(28:33):
person you know would have saidand can you listen to yourself?
when you're talking in thispodcast, you say, you know all
the time you're not articulate,you're, you say, and I'm, and I
hear so many other people whospeak so fluently.
There's always that constantsense of comparison, the gap.
You fall into the gap and youstart hearing the voice and
(28:58):
you've got to battle that voiceand the only way to battle that
voice is finding friends.
And this is where it'simportant, you see, and I think
this is a byproduct.
So, because we are so obsessedwith the career and the
institution, then these peoplearound us are competitors.
(29:18):
Are they better or more of me?
And if we forgot, if weremember for a second, uh-uh,
we're.
These are my people, and thisis a thing that I learned from
my dad.
I wish I had a little bit ofthat.
He was really very rarely.
He was really very rarelyenvious of someone who was good
(29:43):
at something and in fact, healways told me your dad.
Sonal (29:45):
He told you about your dad.
GP (29:46):
He was always, he, always.
I remember when I was young andthis is one of the best lessons
I got he always told me, like,find the people who are good and
copy them, like don't.
And he always gave me this idealike you know, don't, don't
compare yourself.
And I kind of do this all thetime I look.
So this is a class like whenyou're a writer, right, you know
, you start writing a paper.
(30:08):
And when I started writing a, apaper, I read a lot of what
other people have written and Iread their published papers and
immediately think like, oh mygod, I could have ever gonna be
able to do this.
And and I know now because Iknow people read my stuff and
and of course, it's brilliantbut this is what happens.
I'm comparing my first draft tothe piece that someone has
(30:30):
finished, you know, five yearslater, yeah and that's.
And so I think this gets caught.
This is very important, becauseambitious people usually find,
you know, very good role models,but then they compare
themselves to those role models.
Now, when I think of myself,when I started teaching, I
(30:50):
wasn't good enough.
I wasn't as good as this, andit was really kind of difficult
for me to understand Me.
In 20 years, I'm better thanmost of the people I was
compared to at the time, butthat's not incompatible with the
(31:11):
fact that then I wasn't goodenough.
And so I think what we do inthat moment in which we actually
make a comparison, an accuratecomparison in which we are
falling short, is crucial, andfor me it's almost impossible.
This is why I evoke my dadright In this moment of the
conversation.
What that's about?
(31:32):
Because it's almost impossibleto be at the bottom of a social
comparison and be aspirationalunless we have someone that
reminds us.
But in the work, you could belike that, like that, yeah, and
(31:55):
so for me, in that moment we arenot lacking confidence.
Sonal (31:59):
We are not lacking courage.
GP (32:00):
We are lacking friends, because every time this is yeah,
it really is, it really is.
Don't you, don't fight thevoice on your own.
You find the voice with thevoice of someone who loves you,
yes, says yeah, they're prettygood if and they're, if, they're
really good friend.
They don't tell you, oh no,they're crap.
They're also strong.
Sonal (32:20):
They say yeah but those are not.
Those are not friends.
GP (32:23):
Uh no, they're pretty good friends what would it take for
you to be like that and whatwould you have to give up?
What would you have to give up?
Yes, that's a powerful question.
What would you have to give up?
What would you have to give up?
Sonal (32:31):
yes, that's a powerful question, you know what?
GP (32:34):
would you have to give up?
That's, that's extremelyimportant, yes, and I think for
me, you know, and I think for methe answer is, um, you know?
Look, I'm a big friend ofself-reflection, of becoming
becoming more confident and allof that.
But what's been true for me isevery time you're in that moment
(32:57):
where you are alone with thevoice that makes you feel lost
and makes you feel stuck, thatdiminishes you, you need to
reach out.
Sometimes we can't holdourselves.
We need others to hold us.
Sonal (33:16):
We can be our worst enemy , a hundred percent.
And I think my coach told methis.
She's, her name is Maggie andthere is a bully voice.
She calls her Marge.
She's even gone to AI and shehas a diagram of a very you know
, like in Matilda, that reallyangry matron woman and she's
(33:36):
like shut up, marge, not today,marge.
That voice and I have, I thinkher name is Sonia and she's just
so judgmental all the time.
I'm like not today, sonia, shutup.
Not today, sonia.
GP (33:49):
So that voice, I don't know anyone who probably does not
have that voice, everyone hasthat voice and I also think you
know, to be honest, to befriendly to the voice, because I
think we shouldn't kind ofdemonize.
Sure, the voice is often anenemy If it comes from a place
of, you know, belittling andinsecurity.
(34:12):
Occasionally, the voice istalking to you Because you're
not honoring who you could beand the voice is angry and it's
a very dysfunctional way, and soyou got to talk back to the
(34:36):
voice and say, okay, I'm willingto listen if you say it in a
caring way yeah, yeah yeah, Ihad um yeah, you know I, one of
the people that had influencedon me as a as a kid, was my
athletics coach, and you know Iwas always talented academically
(35:00):
and it was good for me to dosports because I was very
untalented and my coach used totell me make sure you focus on
school, because you ain't goingto the Olympics it's very
important, but I love doingsomething where I wasn't good at
it, because it forced me tokind of, you know, focus on
little improvements and all ofthat.
And he always said verybrutally in athletics there's
(35:21):
two kind of people those thatcry in the training and laugh in
the race and those that laughin the training and cry in the
race.
Sonal (35:29):
And there was a laugh in the training and cry in the race
.
GP (35:31):
So try in the training.
You know, push yourself andthen you will have the
confidence.
And the confidence won't comefrom I am good.
The confidence will come fromI've put in the work and then
the work I've used, you knowthat served me so well.
You know I am I the nightbefore I go to a new class.
(35:51):
So now I never sleep becausejust because you know my classes
have gone well before, itdoesn't mean this time it's
going to work out.
You know, maybe I'm, you knowI'm all, you know over the hill,
who knows?
And I, and I've now learnedthat everyone was good.
You know they, they're, they'retortured.
(36:12):
Before that moment's all new.
You have to restart fromscratch and all that and um.
And I don't tell myself I'mgood at this.
You know I won teaching awards.
Who cares about that?
I tell myself I have put in thework, so there's nothing else I
can do now.
I have to treat myself withkindness.
So I treat myself prettyharshly in the moments when I'm
(36:32):
trying to develop.
I hold myself accountable, Igive myself stretch goals, I
berate myself if I slack off andand all of that.
But when you go to that jobinterview, when you go to the
class, when you go to that bigmeeting, that's the moment to
say I put, put in the work.
I have 50.
I'm going to give 50.
I have 80.
(36:53):
I'm going to give 80.
I have 120.
I'm going to give 120.
That I've learned from sports.
That's such a skill to be atthe starting line, yeah, and say
I'm all in.
Sonal (37:08):
I'm going to give what I've got.
GP (37:10):
And the voice then doesn't make you what you've got.
The voice needs to be kinder.
The voice needs to say come on,you can do it.
Yeah, and sometimes I talk backto the voice.
The voice says you suck and Isay do you mean to say you can
do better?
That'd be a little bit nicer.
You know that's reframingfriends.
(37:34):
Yeah, reframing be.
Make friends with the voice andmaybe it treats you more kindly
.
Sonal (37:36):
I think the friend part is so important and so under,
even though it sounds veryobvious to every single person,
it's not obvious and I thinkthat someone listening today is
probably thinking do I need todo a little bit of an audit of
my social circles?
Because, because there will bepeople and I know this because I
work with my clients and mystudents there will be people
who'll say, really, that's nevergonna work.
(37:59):
Create content on linkedin oryoutube, you're gonna be the
laughing stock.
That's not a friend, that'ssomeone who's threatened by you.
So you want to find that groupthat loves you no matter what,
even if you fall flat on yourface.
GP (38:15):
Then they'll be like, hey, we'll, we'll get you there, I
got you yeah, they're threatenedby you, or that's the way they
talk to themselves, which iswhich is pretty sad, which is,
awful, which is sad.
Can I pitch one thing?
Yes, I've.
Actually, one of my favoritepieces of writing is one of my
latest articles and it's onfriendship and it's called how
(38:37):
to Make Better Friends at Workand it really makes that
distinction we are talking about.
We actually sometimes have toomany friends who are friends of
our performance, who keep us theway we are, and then we have a
few friends that kind of say ohyou know, try it.
I mean, at the end of the day,take a few risks, you know
(38:59):
that's the.
You see what what the voicedoes is.
It makes it very difficult tostay with your truth and to take
a few risks for your truth andfor the people you care about
yeah and I think the kind offriends that really matter are
those friends I call themfriends of your learning, yeah,
(39:21):
friends of your performance,those friends that help you
close the gap not between theworst that could happen and
normal, but the friends thathelp you close the gap between
normal and the best that couldhappen.
Sonal (39:34):
And the greatness?
Yeah, yeah, they don't reassureyou.
GP (39:38):
They don't reassure you.
And you see, this is what thepeople I mentioned earlier all
did for me.
They didn't reassure me, theyactually put me in positions
where I was more stretched, butthey imagined me and then I
could make a choice whether toput in the work to become that
or to give up.
I'm glad I have done that.
Sonal (40:00):
No, I'm a hundred percent .
I'm so glad you talked aboutfriends, because so many times
we can have peer mentors.
When somebody thinks of amentor, we think of someone
who's older, wiser, 50 stepsahead of us.
Those micro mentorship momentscan come in any shape or form,
even from like high schoolfriends or you know absolutely
friends who are five years, tenyears younger to you, graduated
from a different class, an MBAdoesn't matter.
(40:21):
But they see, see, they seesomething in you that you don't
even imagine in yourself.
And that is the call, right,that is the call that you gotta
answer, the call jp.
Oh my gosh, uh, time has flown.
Um, I want to ask you this onequestion that I ask every single
guest, and that is when youlook back on your beautiful,
(40:45):
glorious career, I'm imaginingyou in 1999, you know, in that
classroom, these 25 years, 25odd years, is there one standout
, defining moment thatsupercharged your career and
helped you to move closer towhere you are today?
GP (41:09):
I mean.
I mean I would betrayeverything I believe in and
study and write about, and teachif I said there is just a
single moment.
And, as I've said, it's aseries of encounters, and every
encounter has helped me becomethe person I became, and then we
(41:37):
can call it a career.
But it's also beyond, you know,any of those encounters I've
spoken about, um, but if I hadto pick one, of course, was if I
had to pick, one, of course,was.
Jennifer, that changedeverything.
That changed everything Because, although you know it was a
work relationship, it was aromantic relationship.
(41:59):
It still is a work relationship.
It still is a romanticrelationship.
We're now parents of childrenand all that, but it was also a
moment that changed myrelationship with work because
work so was so everything and Ihad relationships before that I
(42:21):
regret.
I was so just, um, I was just sounavailable because work so, so
central.
I was so anxious about myselfand me at work and what was
happening at my work.
And I think meeting Jennifergave me the kind of confidence
and the roots to somehow realizethat there were other parts of
(42:45):
life that were as important aswork.
And then, paradoxically, thenit made my work a lot deeper.
It grounded me.
It grounded me and I think youknow it was almost the
(43:15):
archetypal developmentalencounter for me, right when you
find a home and then suddenlyyou can grow in that place.
You know a home place where youcan be safe and free, and that
was that for me.
And then, of course, you knoweverything we've done together.
You know a lot of my work isreally our work and, um and uh,
you know being able to do itwhile also you know enjoying the
(43:37):
ups and downs, the rollercoaster of life, uh, with
someone that you feel is apartner is a big, is a big part
and, um, yeah, so that was thatwas.
That was the moment um manyother you know, and then I, but
I don't want that to shutovershadow all the other moments
(43:58):
we talked about.
Um, you know that that thatclass of 2006, the, you know
still when I walk in now in thatclassroom where I used I taught
my first class I still.
I still remember and that'sstill like a place where I feel
(44:21):
like my spirit will will remainthere for a long time
collectively they shaped right.
Collectively they kind ofshaped who you are today without
that moment, you know they opena door for me that you know I
would never, I would never beable to be, and it's not a point
to give, it's not a kind of,it's not a given thing, but you
know it's no, it's beautiful.
(44:43):
They open the door for you and Ibelieved and I also believed.
You know they made me believe Icould be who I'd been told I
couldn't, and just I couldn't,be more grateful for that.
It's so healing and ever sinceI've had other moments where
(45:03):
people have told me I couldn'tbe this or I couldn't be that,
and I've learned well to takewith a grain of salt.
But when you're at thebeginning of your career, when
people tell you who you can andcannot be, it's harder.
Sonal (45:18):
Yeah, no, you take it more literally.
This is beautiful.
And you're saying the class ofyou know, 2006, december,
because you started in January2006, and this is the graduating
class.
12 months later, you said theyopened a door for you.
They opened a door for youwhich had been shut on your face
.
Let's be clear a couple oftimes already.
GP (45:39):
And and you know you, went there you said I don't believe
that.
I don't believe that.
I don't think it hadn't beenshut on my face.
It had kind of been held ajar.
I couldn't just squeeze throughto get inside kind of.
They kind of pushed it open.
Sonal (45:54):
Yeah no, I got a shot on my face otherwise I wouldn't
have been no.
When you said no, what I'm whatI meant is when you said that,
oh, you're neither here northere.
We can't put you in a box.
GP (46:05):
That's what I meant yeah, and here you are, I think it.
You know the door.
I've been sometimes and this issometimes.
I find sometimes in careersthis is frustrating because you
know, an open door is fine and adoor shut on your face is also
fine, at least it's clear.
But sometimes there are thesedoors that are kind of ajar or
(46:25):
someone told you no, we left itopen for you.
But then you, you, you kind ofturn the the thing and it's
locked and they, I mean I dothis, I do this for my children.
Sometimes you know we left itopen for you, but then you, you,
you kind of turn the the thingand it's locked and they, I mean
, I do this, I do this for mychildren.
Sometimes, you know, I forgetI'm busy thinking of something,
I left the door open for you andthen I, I lock it because in my
reflex, and then I get thispanic call what did you do?
You know?
And sometimes in careers thereare those people you know they
(46:46):
mean to leave the door open foryou, but then they're so used to
keeping it shut, becausethey've been taught to keep it
shut, that you kind of find thedoor shut and they didn't mean
it.
They wanted to open it for you,but it was their habits to keep
it shut to people like you, soit's tricky.
Sonal (47:03):
I love this.
I love this answer.
I love that you're crediting awhole class for one of the
reasons you're so successfultoday, but also that you met
your wife.
I think I've done, at the pointof publishing this episode, I
think 135 episodes already, 135interviews.
Yours is probably the.
Of course, it's GP who saidthis the first time.
(47:23):
This is the first time I'veheard this answer.
The day, you know, I met mywife and everything that's
happened ever since.
I credit a lot of my success toher.
I love this answer, and youclearly are.
I mean, insead is lucky thatyou both are there.
I'm just going to say it.
Okay, amazing, gp, so I'm goingto link your website.
(47:46):
I'm going to link your articlethat you talked about on
friendship.
I'm going to Google it and I'mgoing to link the article.
Your article that you talkedabout on friendship.
I'm going to google it and I'mgoing to link it.
I'm going to link your LinkedInprofile.
Is there any other way we canespecially those of us who
didn't have the fortune of goingto INSEAD?
Is there any other way we canlearn more about you and follow
your work?
GP (48:06):
I saw on my website and LinkedIn is where I put
everything new.
Yeah, everything is on thewebsite the research, the essays
, the videos.
So that's really the placewhere I put everything, and
LinkedIn.
Now, this is fine and you know,come to INSEAD or invite me to
your company or something likethat, and I'll, and I'll be
(48:30):
there.
Sonal (48:30):
Yeah, yeah, you want to get thoughts on leadership and
you want to get like modern waysof thinking about leadership
and bring heart into theconversation.
Gp is your guy, so definitelymake sure you reach out to him.
I'll put all the links into theshow notes.
Gp, this has been such apleasure.
It's been long overdue.
You talked about misfits.
(48:51):
I felt like such a misfit at mytime at INSEAD.
Your presence and you know youhad this PowerPoint when we were
there at the reunion and youtalked about sometimes, you know
, you don't, just you don't evenhave to, you just have to be.
What was that?
You have to be awake.
Do you remember that one?
Yeah, you don't need to be.
What was that?
You have to be awake.
Do you remember that one?
GP (49:11):
Yeah, you don't need to be perfect, you need to be awake,
you don't need to be perfect,you need to be awake.
Sonal (49:15):
You were there and you were non-judgmental and you were
like, yeah, it's a pleasure,it's been great teaching you.
You have no idea how impactfulthat was, and it also helps that
I think I got an A in one ofyour papers.
In leading people in groups, Istill remember that.
It validated a lot of what Iwas going through at the time.
(49:36):
But this is so emotional for me.
So thank you so much for yourhonesty, your vulnerability,
your humanity.
What was the word you used?
Emotional honesty.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for being here and andwish you continued success at
incia and beyond you werebrilliant then and you still are
(49:59):
hey, you made it to the end andthat means a lot to me because
you could have been listening toa bajillion other things, so
this likely means you enjoyedthe episode.
So I recommend that you hitfollow on the app you were
listening this podcast on andshare it with a friend who could
use some career inspiration.
(50:19):
Come on, sharing is caring,right.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with me today and catch you
next time on how I Got Hired.
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