January 28, 2025 • 43 mins
Welcome to the first 'Soulful Chats' of 2025, where we dive deep into the fascinating intersection of psychology, spirituality, and neurodiversity. Today's guest is Clinical Psychologist Annelil Desille, who opens up about her powerful journey of weaving spiritual practices into both her personal life and professional practice.
As a neurodivergent practitioner herself, Annelil offers unique insights into how spiritual integration has not only transformed her own life but has become a valuable tool in supporting and understanding the neurodivergent community. Whether you're a mental health professional, someone exploring their own spiritual path, or interested in neurodiversity, this conversation illuminates the profound connection between psychological well-being and spiritual growth.
You can find out more about Anneli's incredible work here:
Website for psychology: www.neurokinnection.com.au
Links to audio reassurances and inner child decks: https://www.neurokinnection.com.au/info-resources
Website for retreats, reiki and other courses: https://www.nk-intimacy-alchemy.com.au
Instagram: www.instagram.com/neurokinnection
Books Recommendations:
The Artists Way - https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/0143129252?ref_=mr_direct_us_au_au&showmri
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And please don't forget to hit SUBSCRIBE to keep up to date with our episodes and give us a RATING below. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
You can now send me your comments or questions, to hello@integratedwisdom.com.au or you can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/integrated_wisdom/
Intro and Outro music: Inspiring Morning by Playsound
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tatiana (00:02):
Welcome back and happy.
2025.
I'm so excited to be returningto the podcast after what has
been an extended break.
2024 turned out to be a verychallenging year on a personal
level for me.
And I needed that extra time torecovering reset.
So thank you for your patienceand for sticking with me.
(00:24):
But now I'm ready to resumethese very important
conversations.
Which I believe I needed nowmore than ever.
I'm so excited for all thetopics that we'll be covering
this year.
And my plans for 2025 revolvearound.
Really bringing the spiritualperspective to some of the more
common challenges that we allface as we navigate the human
(00:46):
experience.
There was some incredible thingscoming out.
So be sure to keep tuning in.
And there's no better way tokick things off than we've one
of our very popular soulfulchats.
So enjoy.
Welcome to the Integrated WisdomPodcast.
I am your host, Tatyana DaSilva.
(01:08):
Join me as we discuss what itmeans to live an integrated life
and explore ways for you tocreate a life filled with
greater meaning, peace, andconnection by integrating the
wisdom of spirituality,psychology, Neuroscience,
Epigenetics and EnergyPsychology are hoped to empower
(01:31):
you to create deeper and moreloving connections with yourself
and others, whilst also pavingthe way for humanity at large to
be reimagined and inspired tobecome the very best version of
itself.
hello and welcome to theIntegrated Wisdom Podcast.
(01:52):
I'm so excited to have you alljoin me yet again for this year
as we get started with our veryfirst installment of Soulful
Chats, one of our very popularsegments that we do monthly.
This month, I'm so excited tokick things off with a colleague
and alumni of mine, AnnelilDesille.
(02:13):
She is an AuDHDer intimacy andrelationship clinical
psychologist using theirpersonal experiences along with
clinical experience in the fieldto work with neurodivergent
individuals.
Her special interests includeneurodivergence, mind body
connection, sexual health,dating and intimacy, attachment,
and spirituality.
(02:34):
She holds her Certificate 3 and4 in Fitness, a Masters of
Clinical Psychology,Postgraduate Diploma of
Psychology, a Bachelors ofPsychological Science and a
Reiki Level 2 Certification.
She utilises her array ofknowledge and passion for all
things sex, relationships andintimacies related to support
Neurokin with their research.
(02:55):
Their ability to deepen andstrengthen connections together.
Leo has developed and createdincredible resources as well as
events, retreats, and coursesthat are tailored specifically
to the AuDHD community.
These events and resources havelargely been complimented by the
new King community for theirlevel of inclusivity, adaptive
(03:18):
ability.
and resourcefulness.
Welcome, Lil.
It's so exciting to have youjoin us today.
I'm very excited to be here.
So thank you
Anelil (03:27):
for inviting me.
Tatiana (03:28):
Oh, yeah.
And as your bio, highlights, youobviously have an interest in
spirituality, which was one ofthe things that kind of
connected us.
So I was very excited to haveyou come on the podcast to talk
about your own journey withspirituality on a personal
level, but as well as in yourwork.
And I'm really, I feel thatyou'll have a lot of beautiful
(03:49):
insights to share with ourlisteners, particularly from the
neurodivergent experience withspirituality.
So thank you so much foragreeing to this.
Anelil (03:59):
Oh, of course.
And apologies in advance.
And I'll say that I'm I mayramble your ear off if I go on a
loop, so you might need to lassome in if I do end up going off
track at any point.
Tatiana (04:09):
We'll go with the flow.
I love this.
All right.
So why don't we start with Whatfirst sparked your interest in
spirituality?
Like a little bit about yourjourney.
Anelil (04:19):
Yeah.
Tatiana (04:20):
Okay.
So,
Anelil (04:22):
Well, funnily enough, I'll go preconception and then
go into the phase where I wasactually integrated with it.
But family lineage goes back inmy maternal side, the Kakar side
where we like history wise wereostracized and made to go
through separate ends of thechurch.
And we were considered to belike evil.
(04:45):
And there's actually like ahistorical museum in France
about our whole family.
It's wild.
So clearly we're powerful littlemagical beings.
But, yeah, mum saw a psychicwhen she was pregnant who said I
would be an indigo child, andlater down the track my mum had
spoken and communicated thatwith me and I was always quite
drawn to that.
My grandmother.
(05:06):
On my mom's side has always beenvery spiritual.
So, everything from reflexologyto Reiki to energy healing has
been in my family anyway in amore subtle and nuanced I guess,
manner.
I've always loved crystals, butI was really drawn into my
spiritual journey, probably alittle bit prior to COVID.
(05:27):
I just moved to Melbourne fromSydney.
Oh, it was 2020 was the mostchaotic year for my life and in
one of the best ways I thinkpossible.
But my partner was doing a lotof self work.
My partner at the time I'm nolonger with and I decided to
journey inward.
And a lot of that started bydoing YouTube videos, like with
(05:50):
yoga with Adrian and connectingin with a little bit more of my
body.
And I remember a really pivotalexperience having met someone
during the COVID time who's oneof my close friends now, and he
helped me do this meditationthat somehow actually allowed me
to connect with my inner childfor the first time ever.
(06:12):
And it was such a profound andintensified moment that it just
sent me down this huge rabbithole of.
What on earth is happening?
Like I want to explore thisdeeper.
So I actually did a lot of in achild work, but then like shadow
(06:34):
work was my calling and muchmore of my preference.
I love all things, dark, nittygritty, raw, vulnerable.
So actually I've loved shadowwork a lot more considerably.
And since that time point,embedding different practices,
learning, more about tarot,angel cards learning about
goddesses and deities andlearning more about Reiki, the
(06:59):
way that energy works andconnection with humans is always
like one of my favorite thingsand understanding humans.
So when I say humans, that'spartially because I feel alien
for one, but for two, just as amore broad terminology of people
generally.
But yes, I think spirituality isalways being quiet.
embedded in some ways morediscreet than others, but I
(07:20):
think it's definitely becomemore prominent since that 2019,
2020 period.
Tatiana (07:25):
Yeah.
Fantastic.
And it sounds like you actuallyreally did a deep dive and
explored lots of differentthings at the same time.
Which is phenomenal because Ithink for a lot of people,
particularly having, because bythen, obviously you were a
psychologist, I imagine.
Anelil (07:39):
Yes, that's correct.
Tatiana (07:40):
And so it's my experience and with some of the
people that I've been speakingto on the podcast that
transition from psychologist andbeing a scientist practitioner
and then allowing yourself toown your spiritual elements
inside can be like really drawnout.
Like to be able to feel like youcan embrace all of those parts
(08:00):
of yourself and not feel likethere's a conflict.
But you just drove headfirst.
Anelil (08:06):
Yeah, apparently I do things a complete other way
around, but I did find that withas I am a psychologist too, it
felt like there were morelimitations actually placed on
me.
So it felt that a lot of myauthenticity had been.
hindered or halted until I wasable to find my own groove to
find the balance and tooutsource different spaces or
(08:29):
people yourself included inthat, that create safety of
going, well, how can we balanceboth science and spirituality?
Because ultimately, psychologyis just colonialist white people
stealing from like culturallycollectivist, like communities,
which have spirituality embeddedthroughout them.
(08:49):
So, ultimately I think that.
The progression was I'm open andthen, Oh no, there are so many
rules to, Oh, I can actuallyfind a roadmap that works for
me.
Tatiana (09:01):
And so cause obviously you, you explored lots of
different things in that evenfrom the very early piece, what
was the first concept, spiritualconcept that you felt really
allowed you to feel confident inexploring more deeply?
Was it the yoga or was itsomething else?
Anelil (09:20):
Definitely not.
Cause movement, I've alwayshated movement is actually
something that is really hardfor me to enter into nowadays.
It's a lot easier, but it isstill something I struggle with.
I think for me, it was thissense of just knowing things and
that sounds arrogant on asurface level, but.
(09:41):
Whether it was a download orwhether it was just having
access to information thatdidn't necessarily feel like
mine, but, instinct or deepunknowing that there was
something more to life, thatthere was something grander,
greater than myself.
And having, communication andreally loving, deep
(10:02):
introspective moments, both withmyself, but with other people.
I think that's something thathas probably pieced together
spirituality at its core for me,and that came the most naturally
and has been the most prominentconcept that's maintained.
Tatiana (10:16):
Yeah, beautiful.
And so I guess from yourexperience, what benefits have
you personally found withincorporating spirituality into
your life more fully?
And I'm really keen to even hearfrom that neurodivergent
perspective, if you feel thathas had a unique way of
connecting with you or enhancingsome of your, I guess, the way
(10:39):
that you feel you navigate theworld?
Yeah.
Anelil (10:45):
So I think the biggest thing for me benefit wise I
think it's really been aboutstepping into authenticity.
There's a lot of both socialscripts, but neuro normative
scripts that we're always toldthat we have to adhere to and be
and exist.
And being neurodivergent, youdon't know these scripts.
And then we get in trouble fornot adhering to the scripts that
(11:07):
don't come in.
naturally to us.
And so I think spirituality hasbeen really beneficial because
it's been quite liberating inlooking at the bits that are
maybe not as palatable tosociety within myself.
Like I'm a very opinionatedperson, I'm very headstrong and
stubborn and I'm very resistantto people making demands of me
(11:32):
that I don't feel are embeddedwith, the Either authenticity or
congruent with my values, andthat can be challenging for a
lot of people on the receivingend.
And that's fine.
Each their own.
Those are parts of me that Ilove wholeheartedly.
But I think that being you're adivergent.
Maybe spirituality comes easierbecause we're quite strong with
(11:53):
pattern recognition.
We can clock things quite easilyor we can notice things that
might be a bit more bizarre oreccentric externally and having
the psych lens on top of thatobviously can amplify that I
think.
But I think the biggest thing,yeah, pattern recognition also
And this is where it can bedifferent for different
(12:14):
neurodivergence, but as anautistic ADHD specifically,
there's a level of cognitiveadaptability I have because of
the ADHD parts, where It allowsme to move swiftly through
different areas of spiritualityand take what I like and leave
the rest, take what resonatesand then just, yeah, I can
separate.
(12:34):
But then there are also rules inthe autistic part of my brain
that are like, well, I stillneed to follow science, there's
still logic, there are somethings that can't be proven and
so then I, there's a little bitof a battle there, but
simultaneously, It's helped withprocessing uncertainty,
spirituality, becauseuncertainty is really triggering
(12:56):
for a lot of autistics who don'tlike knowing what won't happen,
or we need to know, we need tohave a plan, we need to have
structure.
So, a lot of my spiritual workhas been about, surrender
letting go releasing what isn'tmeant to me, and that's a really
difficult thing because, I liketo hold on for dear life and
don't let go.
(13:17):
And so spirituality, I think abenefit of that and with
neurodivergence has allowed meto access a space and a
mentality that I don't thinktraditional therapy could have
actually allowed me to get into.
Tatiana (13:33):
Can you highlight an example of that?
Sorry to interrupt you, but ifyou don't mind expanding on that
point, cause I think that's sucha beautiful and unique point
that you've just made.
Anelil (13:41):
No, absolutely.
So for me, for example, with theuncertainty in particular, so
you've got methodologies likeacceptance and commitment
therapy right?
Like you, you can do yourradical acceptance.
You can have your hands out.
You can be observer in reality.
And they do try to teach youlike well, practicing the method
(14:02):
of.
It is what it is.
I can't do that on a logicallevel because emotions are
what's prominent and what'spresent and what spirituality I
feel covers is more aboutintuiting to the feeling rather
than the thought and taking upas much space as thought.
(14:26):
I feel like with psychology inparticular because it's trying
so very hard to be a science,which it is, but because we want
to be considered hard science,right?
We try to prove a point bygoing, it has to be evidence
based.
It has to be by the book.
It has to be everything thatneeds to be rooted.
He needs to have a rationalewhere spirituality allows for
this fluidity of experientiallearning of this might not work
(14:52):
for me, but how about I givethis a go or how about I do
this?
And Even for example, as I'mhere to budget person, we love.
Especially autistic rituals.
What do I do?
A full moon, a new moon ritual.
And I can embed that.
And part of that means lettinggo the things that aren't
serving me in the current cycle,or what do I want to put my
energy into over the next littlewhile?
(15:13):
So I find that theneurodivergence helps me with
the practicality of workingthrough spirituality to the
point where I'm still grounded.
But it also offers differentinsights and perspectives that,
I'm more healing in ways thatallow me to really connect into
feeling, connect to land,connect to country, to connect
to Others and not just others inhuman form, but animals too
(15:37):
especially like I've got twoblack hats because I'm a witch,
obviously, but yeah, and so I'vecompletely forgotten what your
question was, but I hope Ianswered some of it.
Tatiana (15:52):
Oh, you answered it so perfectly because I think it
really speaks to why.
Integrating these two domains,right, the psychological and the
spiritual is so important.
It expands our ability forhealing, for self empowerment,
for self knowledge.
Oh, it was just, oh, beautifulanswer.
Anelil (16:11):
And
Tatiana (16:16):
so I guess that leads so nicely into how you feel it
has enhanced your workspecifically.
So on that professionalpsychological practice level.
What would you say have beensome of the benefits of, or the
gains that you've made fromembodying this more fully?
Anelil (16:36):
I think the biggest thing is the connection piece
and observing.
More than what you just see inthe room.
But really knowing and feelinginto what's in the room with
you.
It's helped me to be moreinsightful when my stuff is in
the room.
So beautiful mirrors all aroundus.
(16:56):
And obviously with some clients,they mirror out a lot more.
And I think with spiritualitywork, it's allowed me to access.
self reflective capacity, yougo, Oh, so it's coming up.
Okay.
Put that to the side.
Let's address that later.
Stay in tune, staying morepresent with my client and just
being able to acknowledge, okay,that's a thing I can address
(17:17):
that later, as opposed to, therisk of transference or counter
transference occurring and notknowing what's happening in
processing.
It's just Oh, no, that's a flag.
Cool.
I'll pin it for later.
I think it's a lot more easierfor me to define.
when that's occurring and toplace it to the side without it
impacting the session or myclients feeling into the room.
(17:37):
And this is maybe partially alsothe autistic element where I
don't just listen to what peoplespeak.
I look.
at their bodies because theirbodies tell more truth than
their voices will.
It's it's so true.
And I'm just like, okay.
And I work with autistic ADHD istoo, but many of them are
masters and people who have hadto learn the social scripts that
(17:59):
I mentioned a bit earlier.
So, What's been really valuableis I will hear them talk and I
don't necessarily look at themwhile it's being done But I'm
looking what is your body doing?
What's the tone of your voicedoing?
How is it inflecting?
How is this different andpattern recognition queuing and
then being able to goincongruences here and then I
(18:21):
can call it out in a session andI think it's given me confidence
especially with spiritualityintegration to go I'm just
feeling something's off.
I'm not clocking what it is, andthat's the autistic in me that's
what have I missed?
But there's something that'sthere.
And it allows my clients anopportunity to be honest, for
(18:43):
one or vulnerable if they feelcomfortable to do so.
Or it gives me an opportunity togo, ah, that's a spot that they
might struggle with.
How can I now create a safetynet around them to invite them
into this space of discussion?
Or when's the right time tochallenge versus not?
And I think with spirituality,it's allowed me to be more,
(19:05):
yeah, connected, present with myclients, but seeing what's mine,
what baggage can be left behind,what's theirs, what's
projection, and much more thanjust this more.
Scientific, okay, that would beprojection, because you just
said this, it's less that andmore of a Okay, take a beat.
(19:26):
I wonder what you're trying toget at when you're doing this.
I'm curious.
I'm way more curious to searchfor answers rather than having
this point of needing to becertain and this authority in
the space.
It's no, like we'recollaborating.
We're being co creators of yourstory.
of your therapeutic work, andyou know yourself better than I
(19:50):
do, so I'm not wanting to lead,but I'm curious as to why you've
just done this, if that makessense.
Tatiana (19:57):
How fabulous.
Do you mind talking to, I guess,how your clients then respond to
you approaching things in thatin that way?
Anelil (20:06):
All of my clients who meet me know I am a very direct
communicator.
So, I get a very specific set ofclients as well.
I think you either love me oryou hate me.
I'm a very, I mean, a verypalatable or very oppositional.
Not my person.
Literally.
I can't be anyone but myself.
Blessing and a curse.
But I attract a lot of similarlyneurotyped clients.
(20:30):
So PDA ers, gifted individuals,autistic ADHD ers too.
Some of them spiritual, some ofthem not.
So I do have to make a balancein the way that I do approach
different concepts, of course,and that's just therapeutic
work, right?
We tailor to the person.
But I do find that I'm received,I have clients that will say
(20:50):
before as a preface, I'll belike, Now I know you're going to
be like angry, but so I knowyour voice is running through my
head when I did this, still didthe thing, don't judge me.
And then they then proceed totell me what they did.
And I'm like laughing in sessionbecause I'm like.
You obviously know that I'm notgoing to judge you, but I also
(21:10):
will like simultaneously knowthat I will still hold
unconditional positive regardfor you and simultaneously still
hold you accountable.
And so that is one of the bestfeelings for me because it's so
validating.
Cause I very much a very fairbeliever.
Authenticity is my strongest,one of my strongest values.
And also my clients tell me I'm,because I have such a flat face
(21:34):
when I'm just listening andreceiving, when I've received
interesting information, I'mvery expressively obvious and
they're like, Oh, you didn'thave to do that face.
I'm at home.
I mean, way too obvious.
No, but I think my clientsreceive me quite well.
They know what to expect and Ithink my consistency maybe helps
(21:55):
support that.
Tatiana (21:56):
Oh, 100 percent and I think you're really modeling for
them, right?
What it means to be authentic inthe world and the fact that they
can then come to you even thoughlike they're confessing.
Anelil (22:07):
Literally, I'm like.
They're still being authenticthough.
Look.
Glad you told me.
Was that the right decisionthough?
And they're like, no, but, andI'm like, it's okay.
You're human, but like maybewhat we could have done.
Ideas.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
No judgment.
It's, you are human.
We're gonna, we're gonna fuckup, we're gonna make mistakes.
We're gonna do all of thesethings because at the end of the
(22:29):
day, we are human and we haveour own biases and our own
choices, and our owninsecurities and our own
projections.
Yeah.
It's just about keepingourselves accountable or
acknowledging when it is.
Without going down the fullShane spiral, and then going,
okay.
How do I learn and get betterfrom this?
How do I make sure that I createsafety next time?
Or how do I hold myself nexttime in those moments?
Tatiana (22:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then, from that spirituallens, that's also why we're
here, right?
Like we're here to learn and togrow.
So yeah, it's gorgeous.
That's why, yeah, you can'tseparate the two things.
We'll still, we'll get everybodyelse to see it our way
eventually, but.
Anelil (23:06):
Oh, I think the research is already heading that way.
And I'm actually seeing a hugecollective shift with quite a
lot of psychologists in thecommunity, which I'm adoring at
the moment.
Especially, with learning anticolonialist, anti capitalist,
anti patriarchal kind ofparadigms, even the anti medical
model and pathologizing andgoing, we have taken from
(23:29):
collectivist cultures by tryingto promote an individualistic
practice.
Forgetting that community is oneof the things, like relational
healing only happens in relationwith and to.
And there are so many beautifulthings, whether you want to
label it spiritual or not, likeeco therapy, nature therapy
(23:50):
That's what we used to do.
That is what our ancestors did.
They went out into nature.
They grounded themselves bygoing barefoot, connecting with
the land.
And especially with firstnations, like indigenous
Australians aboriginals inparticular, right?
They, the state of country is areflection of our world, of our
(24:10):
mental capacity and ourconnections with others.
I've done so many videos.
would recommend highly WeAli.
They are an Aboriginal communitygroup that do PDs in cultural
and spiritual practice andtrauma healing with the
Indigenous community.
So good.
So I highly recommend just as aside note.
And all of the exercises,shockingly so similar to what we
(24:33):
do with psych.
And it's just this beautifulconfirmation of, yeah.
Like you said, you can't nothave the two.
And whether you want to label itspirituality or not, that's
fine.
You don't need to be someone whofalls into the woo category.
You can be someone that justgoes, I like movement.
I like reflecting on mythoughts.
I like taking moments of pausefor visualization, whatever you
(24:54):
want to call it, it is still apractice of self connection to
others.
And that in itself is out of theself healing and growth journey.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think they're deeplyembedded and enmeshed concepts,
but, call it what you will.
Today potato.
Tatiana (25:14):
100%.
And I agree with you.
I just see a very clear shifthappening and it's, it started
as a trickle and now it'sbuilding momentum and it's going
to become a tsunami wave in ourlifetime.
But I mean.
But we started earlier talkingabout how for a lot of us
psychs, bridging this gap can bevery scary, particularly in
(25:36):
Australia.
I don't think it's an issue thathappens so much overseas, but in
Australia, our board is verystrict about the sorts of things
that we can and can't do or talkabout.
So for you, from that side, likefrom the perspective of being a
psychologist, where their fearsaround embodying your spiritual.
(25:57):
I guess that's spirituality orholding those two things
simultaneously.
And how did you override thatfear?
Cause it sounds like now you'revery open about it.
Like you can talk about itquite.
Quite openly, but was there evera point where you didn't feel
like you could, like you didn't,I know that for me, I was in the
closet for a long time until Ifelt like, you know what I can't
(26:18):
not do this because it's killingme to be, to suppress this very
core part of who I am.
Anelil (26:23):
Especially if it's your higher calling, right?
To provide that information,especially.
There have been elements wherethat's been present.
I think the biggest moment wasactually during my master's.
Where I felt very stifled.
I was very emotionally connectedto a client.
And not even in a spiritualsense, but I, they were my first
(26:45):
client through the master'scourse.
So I was very protective in thatway.
And obviously I wanted to doright by them.
And they had a reallyintensified neurotype that
needed way more support than Iactually had in my scope.
And I was quite distressed tothe point that I brought it to
group supervision a few times.
And I remember my supervisorstelling me that I was too
(27:07):
emotional about it, and theamount of shame that created,
and then continually throughoutthe course, like when I was
questioning things or askingabout things with curiosity
they, once again, shamed thatand made me feel incorrect for,
needing to understand rationalebehind things.
(27:29):
I was trying to understand whyXYZ was supposed to be helpful.
And I wasn't given clarity otherthan the concept of stop asking
questions.
You just follow the rules.
And as a PDA, um, I kept my headdown.
Cause my mom's actually apsychologist.
So.
And she's not in your masters.
(27:52):
They're going to flag, they'regoing to flag you, put your head
down, get it done.
And I felt defeated.
Honestly, my master's course washorrific and it was the lead
into a severe three yearburnout.
And that was really stifling,and I didn't even want to be a
psychologist at that point.
(28:12):
And this is while I was startinglike spiritual journey stuff, so
for context, that was all at thesame time, and it was like, oh,
but I'm exploring and curious,and I'm wanting to understand
this, and everything that I'mbeing told I'm doing is wrong
and I think that's a veryprominent neurodivergent trauma
as well, we hear a lot ofnegative messaging around the
way that we do ask, say things,so yeah.
There was a lot of thebackground narrative there
(28:33):
playing, and it wasn't until Irealized I could be flexible and
this is where I guess the PDAloophole I can always find a
loophole.
It was a, okay, well I don'tnecessarily I want to ask my
clients cause I need to ask themwhat are their cultural
spiritual beliefs?
Cause I've got a lot of clientsof different faiths and cultures
(28:55):
and spiritual propensities.
So I actually asked that on myintake because I'm like, this
actually gives me a gauge of,Firstly, what I need to learn
about your culture to make sureI'm being culturally sensitive.
But also so that I canunderstand what lens you're
going to come from.
And I've got quite a fewFilipino in particular clients
who are very embedded with theirspiritual faith.
(29:18):
And so for those clients Iexplore a little bit more with
them because that would beculturally insensitive not to,
and one of the things especiallythat we do learn inside is that
you can adapt in thosecircumstances.
So I use the loopholes around.
cultural sensitivity and beingopen as a means of allowing a
little bit of that access.
(29:39):
And then finally, I think thelast step there for me to get
out of that shame was to go intospaces where I was reading and
digesting information thatactually highlighted the
westernized and postindustrialized societies were
really just taking from othercultures and communities.
(30:02):
And I think that anticolonialist mindset and
unlearning a lot of that Knowingactually, when we're thinking
about working with clients, wecan't think of it in this
individualistic way.
And so I'm actually not adheringto APRA.
And then I guess the final PDAstep was I just made an
additional business so that Icould do my ranking.
(30:25):
Yes.
Like I was like, I still want todo my spiritual stuff, so I'm
just going to put it as acomplete separate thing.
So APRA.
Yeah.
You have, they are completelyseparate.
Yeah.
And I get to engage with thethings that I find powerful
here.
And then in the other powerfulthings here, I'm adhering to my
ethical guidelines.
I'm ensuring I'm practicing asan ethical psychologist and
(30:47):
within my means of scope, and Idon't merge the two.
And that's the balance that, youknow, with respect to what, My
careers are and what we have toadhere to.
But I felt that once I was ableto do that, it made it so much
easier.
I'm like, okay, so if you wantservices here.
But if you want these serviceshere, and then really just
inquiring with clients and thatinitial intake.
(31:08):
How do you feel about thesethings, the concepts, because
like concepts like journaling,affirmation, like these are not,
yoga, movement, like focusing onyour sleep, rituals.
These are all actually evidencebased practice.
Tatiana (31:20):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Anelil (31:21):
So it's really about, I think, the framing of it with
your words and ensuring thatit's the best modality or best
intervention or best practice toteach and apply with your
clients.
So I think that's where.
I was able to really soften andlean into that authentic piece
of, no, I'm actually doing theright thing.
We just have very firmguidelines, but they forget that
(31:46):
a lot of our practices are stilldeeply embedded.
From, I guess, less westernizedand more collectivist cultures.
Tatiana (31:54):
Yes.
And we're working withindividuals, right?
That are going to have uniqueways of interacting with what
we're presenting.
So we need to adapt to them too.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's really, yeah,so powerful what you've said.
And I guess, just before we moveon, I just wanted to say I'm so
sorry that was your experience.
And It's wonderful that you wereable to push through I guess it
(32:17):
would have been very hard and Ican imagine that there might
have been times when you feellike I just want to give this
up.
And I'm so, so glad that youdidn't because the profession
and the people out there needpractitioners like you that have
these other perspectives andthese other insights.
To really help people heal.
Anelil (32:35):
Thank you for saying that.
No, I really appreciate it.
And I'll thank Paul, my oldpsychologist, who said to me,
you don't actually have to be apsychologist.
You can just finish your degreeand you can just leave it at
that.
And that was enough for me toactually hold onto of going, oh,
there are other options that Icould take.
I don't just have to be so onetrack minded.
(32:56):
But no, thank you for sayingthat.
And look, it ultimately helpedme.
While it stifled parts of me atthat time, the uprising moment
was, no that's not me.
I had to keep my head down intertiary education but I earned
my practice.
I'm being ethical.
(33:16):
I see a supervisor moreregularly than I actually need
to.
I supervisions.
I'm still doing my CPD.
I'm doing all the things I needto.
Yeah and in a way that'sresonant with who I am and the
clients that I see.
So, I'm glad I kept going too.
But I think that we all have togo through that crappy little
journey.
I think that's just also themedical model.
(33:38):
That's very true.
Tatiana (33:40):
Yeah.
That is very true.
And it's so ironic, isn't it?
That it's actually one of thethings that makes me really mad
that we're in this professionwhere we want to be able to call
ourselves scientists.
Yeah.
And what is science, if notcurious inquiry and adapting to
the facts as they come up allthe time, right?
There is no one hard, solidtruth.
(34:03):
It's a moving target constantly.
Anelil (34:05):
Yeah.
Tatiana (34:06):
And so to have these so called professors telling us
that is wrong, that to becurious is wrong, to be
scientifically minded is wrong,is just the biggest irony ever.
But also what gets under myskin.
I wholeheartedly agree.
No,
Anelil (34:19):
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I, yep.
Honestly, I, even just the factthat unpaid placements is still
a thing, but that's a wholeother kind of thing.
That's a
Tatiana (34:28):
whole other episode.
Oh Lord.
Ha.
So from your perspective, thenwhat do you see to be the value
of psychologists and othertherapists more broadly, in
particular, embracing theirspiritual selves and being more
curious, or at least being morecurious about their
spirituality?
Anelil (34:45):
It just leads to open mindedness more.
More openness to other people'sperspectives more considerations
for additional perspectives thatyour clients might not be
thinking of.
More eagerness to learn.
So expansion of your knowledgeand I think it really deepens
connections with others whenyou're willing to go down to the
(35:06):
roots and go, okay, well, Thetree looks like this, but let's
look at the soil.
Let's look at the roots.
Let's look at the weather aroundyou.
Let's actually look at it forthe holistic part with which you
are.
Cause ultimately we're wholebeings.
We're not just our thoughts.
We're a conglomerate whole of somany different things.
(35:29):
And.
I think that psychologists morebroadly when they can tap into a
space of that exploration,allowing not only their own
individual self growth, butthey're also encouraging
modeling that to their clients.
But there's so much learning,like we're forever learning,
like you just said, like, thereis always room for discovering
(35:52):
more.
And I think that when it comesto spirituality, there's so many
areas, so much within it thatyou can just pick and choose
what you really want to try.
And if it really does appeal,then awesome.
If it doesn't.
But I think there's a lot ofbeauty in having.
a lot of options.
And I mean, we've got suchfinite time.
(36:13):
Like everyone's Oh, life isshort, but life is like the
longest thing that we existwith.
So objectively, right.
So let's utilize and maximizeupon that time.
You've got so much time.
I say we're all going to die,but more or less seriously than
that there is enough time foryou to learn and try things and
(36:36):
at your own pace.
Tatiana (36:39):
Yeah, no, beautiful, beautifully said.
So one final reflection then isif you had to pick one
transformative aspect forembracing spirituality more
fully, both on that personal andprofessional level, what aspect
would that be for you?
And maybe it's what you've justsaid, but, I
Anelil (37:00):
don't work through and through your ugly parts.
Like I look at the shame, lookat the anger, look at the
jealousy, look at I feel like ina child's life is very beautiful
and healing in its lightness andits ability to take yourself
less seriously and to giveyourself permission to step into
(37:20):
joy.
But I think that a lot of peoplesit into their avoidance of
themselves.
Oops.
And I'm, not a human that's notbeen in that space myself and
sometimes still am like we'rehuman after all.
But I think really doing shadowwork is both confronting, but
it's so healing because itallows you to both forgive other
(37:41):
people for what you've seen,what it's brought out in you.
We're all just mirroring andreflecting and bouncing at the
end of the day.
So I think that was a reallyintegral part of my
transformative journey formyself was to be able to do
that.
And that allowed me to step intoa lot more self compassion.
Tatiana (38:00):
Yeah.
Fabulous.
Yeah.
How beautiful.
And I have a tradition.
in this podcast where I'llalways ask my guests to
recommend a book that they foundtransformative, a spiritual book
to begin that you couldrecommend other people may want
to use as a beginning step intheir journey for exploring
these topics more fully.
(38:21):
I don't know if you want torecommend something around that
shadow work piece or somethingelse.
Yeah, it can be more than one.
Anelil (38:29):
Is it?
where the wild women run orwomen who run with wolves.
But yeah, this is one that I'drecommend for my assigned female
at birth individuals.
I don't think I'm going torecommend anything other than
(38:50):
that, because that, that one wasjust more about embracing like
your wild side and allowing, andthat's also helpful for stepping
away from social scripts andthings that we've been
indoctrinated into socially.
So it was like a conglomeratemix of that.
But if you want to tap into thatspace, honestly, Microdose it on
YouTube videos or on TikToks orInstagram find what resonates.
(39:13):
For me, I really I love SylviaPlath.
She's not spiritual by anymeans, but her poetry, her
writings were so resonant withme and her experiences.
So, actually, I lie.
The artist's way.
Tatiana (39:31):
The artist's way.
Anelil (39:32):
Okay.
And that's a practical kind ofside book.
And it's very great.
Anything tapping intosensuality, creativity I think
is powerful and magnetic.
It's not woo enough to scare youoff if you need to step into the
space.
Gently.
Yeah, exactly.
Teeter on the loom.
Tatiana (39:52):
Fabulous.
I'll put a link to both thosebooks in the show notes for
those that are curious toexplore that.
But I really just want to thankyou so much, Lil, for coming on.
I had a feeling that thisconversation was going to be
super powerful and it has beenbeyond my wildest dreams.
So thank you so much for beingso awesome.
open and vulnerable and sharingso insightfully.
(40:12):
Thanks for having
Anelil (40:14):
me.
Tatiana (40:16):
I guess if you want to share a little bit about where
people can find you, some of thebeautiful work that you do on
you, you do so much, like you'verun some incredible retreats.
I talk a little bit about yourofferings and where people can
find you.
Anelil (40:28):
Ah, okay.
So have an Instagram and a TikTOK under neuro connections.
So that's N E U R O.
A I N E C T I
Tatiana (40:38):
O
Anelil (40:38):
N.
Tatiana (40:39):
And I'll put all the links in the show notes.
Anelil (40:40):
Perfect.
So that's like for autistic ADHDrelationship and self work.
I mean, I've got an upcomingcourse, but it won't be, it'll
probably be done by the timethis is out, but I started, it's
called bare essentials and it'sup this week.
But I'm going to run it againlater in the year, which is
actually about tapping intosensuality and a little bit of
spirituality.
Autistic ADHD, sign for amountof birth and gender diverse
(41:02):
people.
Fantastic.
And yeah, couples retreats forneurodivergence, which embeds
spirituality to and connectionto others, but partner self, all
of those elements too, becausethey're really integral and lots
of resources constantly makingthings where I can.
So neurodivergent in a childaffirmation deck cards I've got,
(41:23):
and some audio reassurances.
So words that neurodivergenceprobably didn't hear from family
members, but probably needed towhen they were younger.
So it's a nice, like in a childhealing work.
And I made those from.
my own inner child needs when Iwas doing some of that spiritual
work too.
Tatiana (41:38):
How gorgeous.
Yeah.
I'll put a link to all of thesethings in the show notes so
people can find you.
And yeah, once again, thank youso, so much for coming and
sharing your wisdom with us.
Anelil (41:50):
Thank you again for having me.
It's been delightful and I'mvery
Tatiana (41:53):
excited.
And thank you all for listening.
I hope you all have a lovelyweek and we will speak next
time.
Anelil (42:01):
Yeah.
Thanks.
Bye.
Tatiana (42:06):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Integrated
Wisdom.
It is my sincere wish thattoday's episode may have
intrigued and inspired you toreclaim your power and step into
becoming more fully integratedspiritual beings.
New episodes are published everysecond Wednesday and I hope
you'll continue to join us as wedive deeper into what it means
(42:29):
to live an integrated life.
So if it feels aligned to you, Iinvite you to hit subscribe and
share it with others who youfeel may benefit too.
You may also find me onInstagram at integrated
underscore wisdom.
Remember each moment is anopportunity to embrace your
divine potential and create aworld that is more frequently
(42:53):
inspired.
So for now, stay connected, stayinspired and keep shining your
light into the world.
Welcome back and happy.
2025.
I'm so excited to be returningto the podcast after what has
been an extended break.
2024 turned out to be a verychallenging year on a personal
level for me.
And I needed that extra time torecovering reset.
So thank you for your patienceand for sticking with me.
(00:24):
But now I'm ready to resumethese very important
conversations.
Which I believe I needed nowmore than ever.
I'm so excited for all thetopics that we'll be covering
this year.
And my plans for 2025 revolvearound.
Really bringing the spiritualperspective to some of the more
common challenges that we allface as we navigate the human
(00:46):
experience.
There was some incredible thingscoming out.
So be sure to keep tuning in.
And there's no better way tokick things off than we've one
of our very popular soulfulchats.
So enjoy.
Welcome to the Integrated WisdomPodcast.
I am your host, Tatyana DaSilva.
(01:08):
Join me as we discuss what itmeans to live an integrated life
and explore ways for you tocreate a life filled with
greater meaning, peace, andconnection by integrating the
wisdom of spirituality,psychology, Neuroscience,
Epigenetics and EnergyPsychology are hoped to empower
(01:31):
you to create deeper and moreloving connections with yourself
and others, whilst also pavingthe way for humanity at large to
be reimagined and inspired tobecome the very best version of
itself.
hello and welcome to theIntegrated Wisdom Podcast.
(01:52):
I'm so excited to have you alljoin me yet again for this year
as we get started with our veryfirst installment of Soulful
Chats, one of our very popularsegments that we do monthly.
This month, I'm so excited tokick things off with a colleague
and alumni of mine, AnnelilDesille.
(02:13):
She is an AuDHDer intimacy andrelationship clinical
psychologist using theirpersonal experiences along with
clinical experience in the fieldto work with neurodivergent
individuals.
Her special interests includeneurodivergence, mind body
connection, sexual health,dating and intimacy, attachment,
and spirituality.
(02:34):
She holds her Certificate 3 and4 in Fitness, a Masters of
Clinical Psychology,Postgraduate Diploma of
Psychology, a Bachelors ofPsychological Science and a
Reiki Level 2 Certification.
She utilises her array ofknowledge and passion for all
things sex, relationships andintimacies related to support
Neurokin with their research.
(02:55):
Their ability to deepen andstrengthen connections together.
Leo has developed and createdincredible resources as well as
events, retreats, and coursesthat are tailored specifically
to the AuDHD community.
These events and resources havelargely been complimented by the
new King community for theirlevel of inclusivity, adaptive
(03:18):
ability.
and resourcefulness.
Welcome, Lil.
It's so exciting to have youjoin us today.
I'm very excited to be here.
So thank you
Anelil (03:27):
for inviting me.
Tatiana (03:28):
Oh, yeah.
And as your bio, highlights, youobviously have an interest in
spirituality, which was one ofthe things that kind of
connected us.
So I was very excited to haveyou come on the podcast to talk
about your own journey withspirituality on a personal
level, but as well as in yourwork.
And I'm really, I feel thatyou'll have a lot of beautiful
(03:49):
insights to share with ourlisteners, particularly from the
neurodivergent experience withspirituality.
So thank you so much foragreeing to this.
Anelil (03:59):
Oh, of course.
And apologies in advance.
And I'll say that I'm I mayramble your ear off if I go on a
loop, so you might need to lassome in if I do end up going off
track at any point.
Tatiana (04:09):
We'll go with the flow.
I love this.
All right.
So why don't we start with Whatfirst sparked your interest in
spirituality?
Like a little bit about yourjourney.
Anelil (04:19):
Yeah.
Tatiana (04:20):
Okay.
So,
Anelil (04:22):
Well, funnily enough, I'll go preconception and then
go into the phase where I wasactually integrated with it.
But family lineage goes back inmy maternal side, the Kakar side
where we like history wise wereostracized and made to go
through separate ends of thechurch.
And we were considered to belike evil.
(04:45):
And there's actually like ahistorical museum in France
about our whole family.
It's wild.
So clearly we're powerful littlemagical beings.
But, yeah, mum saw a psychicwhen she was pregnant who said I
would be an indigo child, andlater down the track my mum had
spoken and communicated thatwith me and I was always quite
drawn to that.
My grandmother.
(05:06):
On my mom's side has always beenvery spiritual.
So, everything from reflexologyto Reiki to energy healing has
been in my family anyway in amore subtle and nuanced I guess,
manner.
I've always loved crystals, butI was really drawn into my
spiritual journey, probably alittle bit prior to COVID.
(05:27):
I just moved to Melbourne fromSydney.
Oh, it was 2020 was the mostchaotic year for my life and in
one of the best ways I thinkpossible.
But my partner was doing a lotof self work.
My partner at the time I'm nolonger with and I decided to
journey inward.
And a lot of that started bydoing YouTube videos, like with
(05:50):
yoga with Adrian and connectingin with a little bit more of my
body.
And I remember a really pivotalexperience having met someone
during the COVID time who's oneof my close friends now, and he
helped me do this meditationthat somehow actually allowed me
to connect with my inner childfor the first time ever.
(06:12):
And it was such a profound andintensified moment that it just
sent me down this huge rabbithole of.
What on earth is happening?
Like I want to explore thisdeeper.
So I actually did a lot of in achild work, but then like shadow
(06:34):
work was my calling and muchmore of my preference.
I love all things, dark, nittygritty, raw, vulnerable.
So actually I've loved shadowwork a lot more considerably.
And since that time point,embedding different practices,
learning, more about tarot,angel cards learning about
goddesses and deities andlearning more about Reiki, the
(06:59):
way that energy works andconnection with humans is always
like one of my favorite thingsand understanding humans.
So when I say humans, that'spartially because I feel alien
for one, but for two, just as amore broad terminology of people
generally.
But yes, I think spirituality isalways being quiet.
embedded in some ways morediscreet than others, but I
(07:20):
think it's definitely becomemore prominent since that 2019,
2020 period.
Tatiana (07:25):
Yeah.
Fantastic.
And it sounds like you actuallyreally did a deep dive and
explored lots of differentthings at the same time.
Which is phenomenal because Ithink for a lot of people,
particularly having, because bythen, obviously you were a
psychologist, I imagine.
Anelil (07:39):
Yes, that's correct.
Tatiana (07:40):
And so it's my experience and with some of the
people that I've been speakingto on the podcast that
transition from psychologist andbeing a scientist practitioner
and then allowing yourself toown your spiritual elements
inside can be like really drawnout.
Like to be able to feel like youcan embrace all of those parts
(08:00):
of yourself and not feel likethere's a conflict.
But you just drove headfirst.
Anelil (08:06):
Yeah, apparently I do things a complete other way
around, but I did find that withas I am a psychologist too, it
felt like there were morelimitations actually placed on
me.
So it felt that a lot of myauthenticity had been.
hindered or halted until I wasable to find my own groove to
find the balance and tooutsource different spaces or
(08:29):
people yourself included inthat, that create safety of
going, well, how can we balanceboth science and spirituality?
Because ultimately, psychologyis just colonialist white people
stealing from like culturallycollectivist, like communities,
which have spirituality embeddedthroughout them.
(08:49):
So, ultimately I think that.
The progression was I'm open andthen, Oh no, there are so many
rules to, Oh, I can actuallyfind a roadmap that works for
me.
Tatiana (09:01):
And so cause obviously you, you explored lots of
different things in that evenfrom the very early piece, what
was the first concept, spiritualconcept that you felt really
allowed you to feel confident inexploring more deeply?
Was it the yoga or was itsomething else?
Anelil (09:20):
Definitely not.
Cause movement, I've alwayshated movement is actually
something that is really hardfor me to enter into nowadays.
It's a lot easier, but it isstill something I struggle with.
I think for me, it was thissense of just knowing things and
that sounds arrogant on asurface level, but.
(09:41):
Whether it was a download orwhether it was just having
access to information thatdidn't necessarily feel like
mine, but, instinct or deepunknowing that there was
something more to life, thatthere was something grander,
greater than myself.
And having, communication andreally loving, deep
(10:02):
introspective moments, both withmyself, but with other people.
I think that's something thathas probably pieced together
spirituality at its core for me,and that came the most naturally
and has been the most prominentconcept that's maintained.
Tatiana (10:16):
Yeah, beautiful.
And so I guess from yourexperience, what benefits have
you personally found withincorporating spirituality into
your life more fully?
And I'm really keen to even hearfrom that neurodivergent
perspective, if you feel thathas had a unique way of
connecting with you or enhancingsome of your, I guess, the way
(10:39):
that you feel you navigate theworld?
Yeah.
Anelil (10:45):
So I think the biggest thing for me benefit wise I
think it's really been aboutstepping into authenticity.
There's a lot of both socialscripts, but neuro normative
scripts that we're always toldthat we have to adhere to and be
and exist.
And being neurodivergent, youdon't know these scripts.
And then we get in trouble fornot adhering to the scripts that
(11:07):
don't come in.
naturally to us.
And so I think spirituality hasbeen really beneficial because
it's been quite liberating inlooking at the bits that are
maybe not as palatable tosociety within myself.
Like I'm a very opinionatedperson, I'm very headstrong and
stubborn and I'm very resistantto people making demands of me
(11:32):
that I don't feel are embeddedwith, the Either authenticity or
congruent with my values, andthat can be challenging for a
lot of people on the receivingend.
And that's fine.
Each their own.
Those are parts of me that Ilove wholeheartedly.
But I think that being you're adivergent.
Maybe spirituality comes easierbecause we're quite strong with
(11:53):
pattern recognition.
We can clock things quite easilyor we can notice things that
might be a bit more bizarre oreccentric externally and having
the psych lens on top of thatobviously can amplify that I
think.
But I think the biggest thing,yeah, pattern recognition also
And this is where it can bedifferent for different
(12:14):
neurodivergence, but as anautistic ADHD specifically,
there's a level of cognitiveadaptability I have because of
the ADHD parts, where It allowsme to move swiftly through
different areas of spiritualityand take what I like and leave
the rest, take what resonatesand then just, yeah, I can
separate.
(12:34):
But then there are also rules inthe autistic part of my brain
that are like, well, I stillneed to follow science, there's
still logic, there are somethings that can't be proven and
so then I, there's a little bitof a battle there, but
simultaneously, It's helped withprocessing uncertainty,
spirituality, becauseuncertainty is really triggering
(12:56):
for a lot of autistics who don'tlike knowing what won't happen,
or we need to know, we need tohave a plan, we need to have
structure.
So, a lot of my spiritual workhas been about, surrender
letting go releasing what isn'tmeant to me, and that's a really
difficult thing because, I liketo hold on for dear life and
don't let go.
(13:17):
And so spirituality, I think abenefit of that and with
neurodivergence has allowed meto access a space and a
mentality that I don't thinktraditional therapy could have
actually allowed me to get into.
Tatiana (13:33):
Can you highlight an example of that?
Sorry to interrupt you, but ifyou don't mind expanding on that
point, cause I think that's sucha beautiful and unique point
that you've just made.
Anelil (13:41):
No, absolutely.
So for me, for example, with theuncertainty in particular, so
you've got methodologies likeacceptance and commitment
therapy right?
Like you, you can do yourradical acceptance.
You can have your hands out.
You can be observer in reality.
And they do try to teach youlike well, practicing the method
(14:02):
of.
It is what it is.
I can't do that on a logicallevel because emotions are
what's prominent and what'spresent and what spirituality I
feel covers is more aboutintuiting to the feeling rather
than the thought and taking upas much space as thought.
(14:26):
I feel like with psychology inparticular because it's trying
so very hard to be a science,which it is, but because we want
to be considered hard science,right?
We try to prove a point bygoing, it has to be evidence
based.
It has to be by the book.
It has to be everything thatneeds to be rooted.
He needs to have a rationalewhere spirituality allows for
this fluidity of experientiallearning of this might not work
(14:52):
for me, but how about I givethis a go or how about I do
this?
And Even for example, as I'mhere to budget person, we love.
Especially autistic rituals.
What do I do?
A full moon, a new moon ritual.
And I can embed that.
And part of that means lettinggo the things that aren't
serving me in the current cycle,or what do I want to put my
energy into over the next littlewhile?
(15:13):
So I find that theneurodivergence helps me with
the practicality of workingthrough spirituality to the
point where I'm still grounded.
But it also offers differentinsights and perspectives that,
I'm more healing in ways thatallow me to really connect into
feeling, connect to land,connect to country, to connect
to Others and not just others inhuman form, but animals too
(15:37):
especially like I've got twoblack hats because I'm a witch,
obviously, but yeah, and so I'vecompletely forgotten what your
question was, but I hope Ianswered some of it.
Tatiana (15:52):
Oh, you answered it so perfectly because I think it
really speaks to why.
Integrating these two domains,right, the psychological and the
spiritual is so important.
It expands our ability forhealing, for self empowerment,
for self knowledge.
Oh, it was just, oh, beautifulanswer.
Anelil (16:11):
And
Tatiana (16:16):
so I guess that leads so nicely into how you feel it
has enhanced your workspecifically.
So on that professionalpsychological practice level.
What would you say have beensome of the benefits of, or the
gains that you've made fromembodying this more fully?
Anelil (16:36):
I think the biggest thing is the connection piece
and observing.
More than what you just see inthe room.
But really knowing and feelinginto what's in the room with
you.
It's helped me to be moreinsightful when my stuff is in
the room.
So beautiful mirrors all aroundus.
(16:56):
And obviously with some clients,they mirror out a lot more.
And I think with spiritualitywork, it's allowed me to access.
self reflective capacity, yougo, Oh, so it's coming up.
Okay.
Put that to the side.
Let's address that later.
Stay in tune, staying morepresent with my client and just
being able to acknowledge, okay,that's a thing I can address
(17:17):
that later, as opposed to, therisk of transference or counter
transference occurring and notknowing what's happening in
processing.
It's just Oh, no, that's a flag.
Cool.
I'll pin it for later.
I think it's a lot more easierfor me to define.
when that's occurring and toplace it to the side without it
impacting the session or myclients feeling into the room.
(17:37):
And this is maybe partially alsothe autistic element where I
don't just listen to what peoplespeak.
I look.
at their bodies because theirbodies tell more truth than
their voices will.
It's it's so true.
And I'm just like, okay.
And I work with autistic ADHD istoo, but many of them are
masters and people who have hadto learn the social scripts that
(17:59):
I mentioned a bit earlier.
So, What's been really valuableis I will hear them talk and I
don't necessarily look at themwhile it's being done But I'm
looking what is your body doing?
What's the tone of your voicedoing?
How is it inflecting?
How is this different andpattern recognition queuing and
then being able to goincongruences here and then I
(18:21):
can call it out in a session andI think it's given me confidence
especially with spiritualityintegration to go I'm just
feeling something's off.
I'm not clocking what it is, andthat's the autistic in me that's
what have I missed?
But there's something that'sthere.
And it allows my clients anopportunity to be honest, for
(18:43):
one or vulnerable if they feelcomfortable to do so.
Or it gives me an opportunity togo, ah, that's a spot that they
might struggle with.
How can I now create a safetynet around them to invite them
into this space of discussion?
Or when's the right time tochallenge versus not?
And I think with spirituality,it's allowed me to be more,
(19:05):
yeah, connected, present with myclients, but seeing what's mine,
what baggage can be left behind,what's theirs, what's
projection, and much more thanjust this more.
Scientific, okay, that would beprojection, because you just
said this, it's less that andmore of a Okay, take a beat.
(19:26):
I wonder what you're trying toget at when you're doing this.
I'm curious.
I'm way more curious to searchfor answers rather than having
this point of needing to becertain and this authority in
the space.
It's no, like we'recollaborating.
We're being co creators of yourstory.
of your therapeutic work, andyou know yourself better than I
(19:50):
do, so I'm not wanting to lead,but I'm curious as to why you've
just done this, if that makessense.
Tatiana (19:57):
How fabulous.
Do you mind talking to, I guess,how your clients then respond to
you approaching things in thatin that way?
Anelil (20:06):
All of my clients who meet me know I am a very direct
communicator.
So, I get a very specific set ofclients as well.
I think you either love me oryou hate me.
I'm a very, I mean, a verypalatable or very oppositional.
Not my person.
Literally.
I can't be anyone but myself.
Blessing and a curse.
But I attract a lot of similarlyneurotyped clients.
(20:30):
So PDA ers, gifted individuals,autistic ADHD ers too.
Some of them spiritual, some ofthem not.
So I do have to make a balancein the way that I do approach
different concepts, of course,and that's just therapeutic
work, right?
We tailor to the person.
But I do find that I'm received,I have clients that will say
(20:50):
before as a preface, I'll belike, Now I know you're going to
be like angry, but so I knowyour voice is running through my
head when I did this, still didthe thing, don't judge me.
And then they then proceed totell me what they did.
And I'm like laughing in sessionbecause I'm like.
You obviously know that I'm notgoing to judge you, but I also
(21:10):
will like simultaneously knowthat I will still hold
unconditional positive regardfor you and simultaneously still
hold you accountable.
And so that is one of the bestfeelings for me because it's so
validating.
Cause I very much a very fairbeliever.
Authenticity is my strongest,one of my strongest values.
And also my clients tell me I'm,because I have such a flat face
(21:34):
when I'm just listening andreceiving, when I've received
interesting information, I'mvery expressively obvious and
they're like, Oh, you didn'thave to do that face.
I'm at home.
I mean, way too obvious.
No, but I think my clientsreceive me quite well.
They know what to expect and Ithink my consistency maybe helps
(21:55):
support that.
Tatiana (21:56):
Oh, 100 percent and I think you're really modeling for
them, right?
What it means to be authentic inthe world and the fact that they
can then come to you even thoughlike they're confessing.
Anelil (22:07):
Literally, I'm like.
They're still being authenticthough.
Look.
Glad you told me.
Was that the right decisionthough?
And they're like, no, but, andI'm like, it's okay.
You're human, but like maybewhat we could have done.
Ideas.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
No judgment.
It's, you are human.
We're gonna, we're gonna fuckup, we're gonna make mistakes.
We're gonna do all of thesethings because at the end of the
(22:29):
day, we are human and we haveour own biases and our own
choices, and our owninsecurities and our own
projections.
Yeah.
It's just about keepingourselves accountable or
acknowledging when it is.
Without going down the fullShane spiral, and then going,
okay.
How do I learn and get betterfrom this?
How do I make sure that I createsafety next time?
Or how do I hold myself nexttime in those moments?
Tatiana (22:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then, from that spirituallens, that's also why we're
here, right?
Like we're here to learn and togrow.
So yeah, it's gorgeous.
That's why, yeah, you can'tseparate the two things.
We'll still, we'll get everybodyelse to see it our way
eventually, but.
Anelil (23:06):
Oh, I think the research is already heading that way.
And I'm actually seeing a hugecollective shift with quite a
lot of psychologists in thecommunity, which I'm adoring at
the moment.
Especially, with learning anticolonialist, anti capitalist,
anti patriarchal kind ofparadigms, even the anti medical
model and pathologizing andgoing, we have taken from
(23:29):
collectivist cultures by tryingto promote an individualistic
practice.
Forgetting that community is oneof the things, like relational
healing only happens in relationwith and to.
And there are so many beautifulthings, whether you want to
label it spiritual or not, likeeco therapy, nature therapy
(23:50):
That's what we used to do.
That is what our ancestors did.
They went out into nature.
They grounded themselves bygoing barefoot, connecting with
the land.
And especially with firstnations, like indigenous
Australians aboriginals inparticular, right?
They, the state of country is areflection of our world, of our
(24:10):
mental capacity and ourconnections with others.
I've done so many videos.
would recommend highly WeAli.
They are an Aboriginal communitygroup that do PDs in cultural
and spiritual practice andtrauma healing with the
Indigenous community.
So good.
So I highly recommend just as aside note.
And all of the exercises,shockingly so similar to what we
(24:33):
do with psych.
And it's just this beautifulconfirmation of, yeah.
Like you said, you can't nothave the two.
And whether you want to label itspirituality or not, that's
fine.
You don't need to be someone whofalls into the woo category.
You can be someone that justgoes, I like movement.
I like reflecting on mythoughts.
I like taking moments of pausefor visualization, whatever you
(24:54):
want to call it, it is still apractice of self connection to
others.
And that in itself is out of theself healing and growth journey.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think they're deeplyembedded and enmeshed concepts,
but, call it what you will.
Today potato.
Tatiana (25:14):
100%.
And I agree with you.
I just see a very clear shifthappening and it's, it started
as a trickle and now it'sbuilding momentum and it's going
to become a tsunami wave in ourlifetime.
But I mean.
But we started earlier talkingabout how for a lot of us
psychs, bridging this gap can bevery scary, particularly in
(25:36):
Australia.
I don't think it's an issue thathappens so much overseas, but in
Australia, our board is verystrict about the sorts of things
that we can and can't do or talkabout.
So for you, from that side, likefrom the perspective of being a
psychologist, where their fearsaround embodying your spiritual.
(25:57):
I guess that's spirituality orholding those two things
simultaneously.
And how did you override thatfear?
Cause it sounds like now you'revery open about it.
Like you can talk about itquite.
Quite openly, but was there evera point where you didn't feel
like you could, like you didn't,I know that for me, I was in the
closet for a long time until Ifelt like, you know what I can't
(26:18):
not do this because it's killingme to be, to suppress this very
core part of who I am.
Anelil (26:23):
Especially if it's your higher calling, right?
To provide that information,especially.
There have been elements wherethat's been present.
I think the biggest moment wasactually during my master's.
Where I felt very stifled.
I was very emotionally connectedto a client.
And not even in a spiritualsense, but I, they were my first
(26:45):
client through the master'scourse.
So I was very protective in thatway.
And obviously I wanted to doright by them.
And they had a reallyintensified neurotype that
needed way more support than Iactually had in my scope.
And I was quite distressed tothe point that I brought it to
group supervision a few times.
And I remember my supervisorstelling me that I was too
(27:07):
emotional about it, and theamount of shame that created,
and then continually throughoutthe course, like when I was
questioning things or askingabout things with curiosity
they, once again, shamed thatand made me feel incorrect for,
needing to understand rationalebehind things.
(27:29):
I was trying to understand whyXYZ was supposed to be helpful.
And I wasn't given clarity otherthan the concept of stop asking
questions.
You just follow the rules.
And as a PDA, um, I kept my headdown.
Cause my mom's actually apsychologist.
So.
And she's not in your masters.
(27:52):
They're going to flag, they'regoing to flag you, put your head
down, get it done.
And I felt defeated.
Honestly, my master's course washorrific and it was the lead
into a severe three yearburnout.
And that was really stifling,and I didn't even want to be a
psychologist at that point.
(28:12):
And this is while I was startinglike spiritual journey stuff, so
for context, that was all at thesame time, and it was like, oh,
but I'm exploring and curious,and I'm wanting to understand
this, and everything that I'mbeing told I'm doing is wrong
and I think that's a veryprominent neurodivergent trauma
as well, we hear a lot ofnegative messaging around the
way that we do ask, say things,so yeah.
There was a lot of thebackground narrative there
(28:33):
playing, and it wasn't until Irealized I could be flexible and
this is where I guess the PDAloophole I can always find a
loophole.
It was a, okay, well I don'tnecessarily I want to ask my
clients cause I need to ask themwhat are their cultural
spiritual beliefs?
Cause I've got a lot of clientsof different faiths and cultures
(28:55):
and spiritual propensities.
So I actually asked that on myintake because I'm like, this
actually gives me a gauge of,Firstly, what I need to learn
about your culture to make sureI'm being culturally sensitive.
But also so that I canunderstand what lens you're
going to come from.
And I've got quite a fewFilipino in particular clients
who are very embedded with theirspiritual faith.
(29:18):
And so for those clients Iexplore a little bit more with
them because that would beculturally insensitive not to,
and one of the things especiallythat we do learn inside is that
you can adapt in thosecircumstances.
So I use the loopholes around.
cultural sensitivity and beingopen as a means of allowing a
little bit of that access.
(29:39):
And then finally, I think thelast step there for me to get
out of that shame was to go intospaces where I was reading and
digesting information thatactually highlighted the
westernized and postindustrialized societies were
really just taking from othercultures and communities.
(30:02):
And I think that anticolonialist mindset and
unlearning a lot of that Knowingactually, when we're thinking
about working with clients, wecan't think of it in this
individualistic way.
And so I'm actually not adheringto APRA.
And then I guess the final PDAstep was I just made an
additional business so that Icould do my ranking.
(30:25):
Yes.
Like I was like, I still want todo my spiritual stuff, so I'm
just going to put it as acomplete separate thing.
So APRA.
Yeah.
You have, they are completelyseparate.
Yeah.
And I get to engage with thethings that I find powerful
here.
And then in the other powerfulthings here, I'm adhering to my
ethical guidelines.
I'm ensuring I'm practicing asan ethical psychologist and
(30:47):
within my means of scope, and Idon't merge the two.
And that's the balance that, youknow, with respect to what, My
careers are and what we have toadhere to.
But I felt that once I was ableto do that, it made it so much
easier.
I'm like, okay, so if you wantservices here.
But if you want these serviceshere, and then really just
inquiring with clients and thatinitial intake.
(31:08):
How do you feel about thesethings, the concepts, because
like concepts like journaling,affirmation, like these are not,
yoga, movement, like focusing onyour sleep, rituals.
These are all actually evidencebased practice.
Tatiana (31:20):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Anelil (31:21):
So it's really about, I think, the framing of it with
your words and ensuring thatit's the best modality or best
intervention or best practice toteach and apply with your
clients.
So I think that's where.
I was able to really soften andlean into that authentic piece
of, no, I'm actually doing theright thing.
We just have very firmguidelines, but they forget that
(31:46):
a lot of our practices are stilldeeply embedded.
From, I guess, less westernizedand more collectivist cultures.
Tatiana (31:54):
Yes.
And we're working withindividuals, right?
That are going to have uniqueways of interacting with what
we're presenting.
So we need to adapt to them too.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's really, yeah,so powerful what you've said.
And I guess, just before we moveon, I just wanted to say I'm so
sorry that was your experience.
And It's wonderful that you wereable to push through I guess it
(32:17):
would have been very hard and Ican imagine that there might
have been times when you feellike I just want to give this
up.
And I'm so, so glad that youdidn't because the profession
and the people out there needpractitioners like you that have
these other perspectives andthese other insights.
To really help people heal.
Anelil (32:35):
Thank you for saying that.
No, I really appreciate it.
And I'll thank Paul, my oldpsychologist, who said to me,
you don't actually have to be apsychologist.
You can just finish your degreeand you can just leave it at
that.
And that was enough for me toactually hold onto of going, oh,
there are other options that Icould take.
I don't just have to be so onetrack minded.
(32:56):
But no, thank you for sayingthat.
And look, it ultimately helpedme.
While it stifled parts of me atthat time, the uprising moment
was, no that's not me.
I had to keep my head down intertiary education but I earned
my practice.
I'm being ethical.
(33:16):
I see a supervisor moreregularly than I actually need
to.
I supervisions.
I'm still doing my CPD.
I'm doing all the things I needto.
Yeah and in a way that'sresonant with who I am and the
clients that I see.
So, I'm glad I kept going too.
But I think that we all have togo through that crappy little
journey.
I think that's just also themedical model.
(33:38):
That's very true.
Tatiana (33:40):
Yeah.
That is very true.
And it's so ironic, isn't it?
That it's actually one of thethings that makes me really mad
that we're in this professionwhere we want to be able to call
ourselves scientists.
Yeah.
And what is science, if notcurious inquiry and adapting to
the facts as they come up allthe time, right?
There is no one hard, solidtruth.
(34:03):
It's a moving target constantly.
Anelil (34:05):
Yeah.
Tatiana (34:06):
And so to have these so called professors telling us
that is wrong, that to becurious is wrong, to be
scientifically minded is wrong,is just the biggest irony ever.
But also what gets under myskin.
I wholeheartedly agree.
No,
Anelil (34:19):
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I, yep.
Honestly, I, even just the factthat unpaid placements is still
a thing, but that's a wholeother kind of thing.
That's a
Tatiana (34:28):
whole other episode.
Oh Lord.
Ha.
So from your perspective, thenwhat do you see to be the value
of psychologists and othertherapists more broadly, in
particular, embracing theirspiritual selves and being more
curious, or at least being morecurious about their
spirituality?
Anelil (34:45):
It just leads to open mindedness more.
More openness to other people'sperspectives more considerations
for additional perspectives thatyour clients might not be
thinking of.
More eagerness to learn.
So expansion of your knowledgeand I think it really deepens
connections with others whenyou're willing to go down to the
(35:06):
roots and go, okay, well, Thetree looks like this, but let's
look at the soil.
Let's look at the roots.
Let's look at the weather aroundyou.
Let's actually look at it forthe holistic part with which you
are.
Cause ultimately we're wholebeings.
We're not just our thoughts.
We're a conglomerate whole of somany different things.
(35:29):
And.
I think that psychologists morebroadly when they can tap into a
space of that exploration,allowing not only their own
individual self growth, butthey're also encouraging
modeling that to their clients.
But there's so much learning,like we're forever learning,
like you just said, like, thereis always room for discovering
(35:52):
more.
And I think that when it comesto spirituality, there's so many
areas, so much within it thatyou can just pick and choose
what you really want to try.
And if it really does appeal,then awesome.
If it doesn't.
But I think there's a lot ofbeauty in having.
a lot of options.
And I mean, we've got suchfinite time.
(36:13):
Like everyone's Oh, life isshort, but life is like the
longest thing that we existwith.
So objectively, right.
So let's utilize and maximizeupon that time.
You've got so much time.
I say we're all going to die,but more or less seriously than
that there is enough time foryou to learn and try things and
(36:36):
at your own pace.
Tatiana (36:39):
Yeah, no, beautiful, beautifully said.
So one final reflection then isif you had to pick one
transformative aspect forembracing spirituality more
fully, both on that personal andprofessional level, what aspect
would that be for you?
And maybe it's what you've justsaid, but, I
Anelil (37:00):
don't work through and through your ugly parts.
Like I look at the shame, lookat the anger, look at the
jealousy, look at I feel like ina child's life is very beautiful
and healing in its lightness andits ability to take yourself
less seriously and to giveyourself permission to step into
(37:20):
joy.
But I think that a lot of peoplesit into their avoidance of
themselves.
Oops.
And I'm, not a human that's notbeen in that space myself and
sometimes still am like we'rehuman after all.
But I think really doing shadowwork is both confronting, but
it's so healing because itallows you to both forgive other
(37:41):
people for what you've seen,what it's brought out in you.
We're all just mirroring andreflecting and bouncing at the
end of the day.
So I think that was a reallyintegral part of my
transformative journey formyself was to be able to do
that.
And that allowed me to step intoa lot more self compassion.
Tatiana (38:00):
Yeah.
Fabulous.
Yeah.
How beautiful.
And I have a tradition.
in this podcast where I'llalways ask my guests to
recommend a book that they foundtransformative, a spiritual book
to begin that you couldrecommend other people may want
to use as a beginning step intheir journey for exploring
these topics more fully.
(38:21):
I don't know if you want torecommend something around that
shadow work piece or somethingelse.
Yeah, it can be more than one.
Anelil (38:29):
Is it?
where the wild women run orwomen who run with wolves.
But yeah, this is one that I'drecommend for my assigned female
at birth individuals.
I don't think I'm going torecommend anything other than
(38:50):
that, because that, that one wasjust more about embracing like
your wild side and allowing, andthat's also helpful for stepping
away from social scripts andthings that we've been
indoctrinated into socially.
So it was like a conglomeratemix of that.
But if you want to tap into thatspace, honestly, Microdose it on
YouTube videos or on TikToks orInstagram find what resonates.
(39:13):
For me, I really I love SylviaPlath.
She's not spiritual by anymeans, but her poetry, her
writings were so resonant withme and her experiences.
So, actually, I lie.
The artist's way.
Tatiana (39:31):
The artist's way.
Anelil (39:32):
Okay.
And that's a practical kind ofside book.
And it's very great.
Anything tapping intosensuality, creativity I think
is powerful and magnetic.
It's not woo enough to scare youoff if you need to step into the
space.
Gently.
Yeah, exactly.
Teeter on the loom.
Tatiana (39:52):
Fabulous.
I'll put a link to both thosebooks in the show notes for
those that are curious toexplore that.
But I really just want to thankyou so much, Lil, for coming on.
I had a feeling that thisconversation was going to be
super powerful and it has beenbeyond my wildest dreams.
So thank you so much for beingso awesome.
open and vulnerable and sharingso insightfully.
(40:12):
Thanks for having
Anelil (40:14):
me.
Tatiana (40:16):
I guess if you want to share a little bit about where
people can find you, some of thebeautiful work that you do on
you, you do so much, like you'verun some incredible retreats.
I talk a little bit about yourofferings and where people can
find you.
Anelil (40:28):
Ah, okay.
So have an Instagram and a TikTOK under neuro connections.
So that's N E U R O.
A I N E C T I
Tatiana (40:38):
O
Anelil (40:38):
N.
Tatiana (40:39):
And I'll put all the links in the show notes.
Anelil (40:40):
Perfect.
So that's like for autistic ADHDrelationship and self work.
I mean, I've got an upcomingcourse, but it won't be, it'll
probably be done by the timethis is out, but I started, it's
called bare essentials and it'sup this week.
But I'm going to run it againlater in the year, which is
actually about tapping intosensuality and a little bit of
spirituality.
Autistic ADHD, sign for amountof birth and gender diverse
(41:02):
people.
Fantastic.
And yeah, couples retreats forneurodivergence, which embeds
spirituality to and connectionto others, but partner self, all
of those elements too, becausethey're really integral and lots
of resources constantly makingthings where I can.
So neurodivergent in a childaffirmation deck cards I've got,
(41:23):
and some audio reassurances.
So words that neurodivergenceprobably didn't hear from family
members, but probably needed towhen they were younger.
So it's a nice, like in a childhealing work.
And I made those from.
my own inner child needs when Iwas doing some of that spiritual
work too.
Tatiana (41:38):
How gorgeous.
Yeah.
I'll put a link to all of thesethings in the show notes so
people can find you.
And yeah, once again, thank youso, so much for coming and
sharing your wisdom with us.
Anelil (41:50):
Thank you again for having me.
It's been delightful and I'mvery
Tatiana (41:53):
excited.
And thank you all for listening.
I hope you all have a lovelyweek and we will speak next
time.
Anelil (42:01):
Yeah.
Thanks.
Bye.
Tatiana (42:06):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Integrated
Wisdom.
It is my sincere wish thattoday's episode may have
intrigued and inspired you toreclaim your power and step into
becoming more fully integratedspiritual beings.
New episodes are published everysecond Wednesday and I hope
you'll continue to join us as wedive deeper into what it means
(42:29):
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So if it feels aligned to you, Iinvite you to hit subscribe and
share it with others who youfeel may benefit too.
You may also find me onInstagram at integrated
underscore wisdom.
Remember each moment is anopportunity to embrace your
divine potential and create aworld that is more frequently
(42:53):
inspired.
So for now, stay connected, stayinspired and keep shining your
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Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
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Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.