In this episode of the Integrated Wisdom Podcast, host Tatiana welcomes clinical psychologist, schema therapist, and breathwork practitioner Dannielle Kurr for a soulful conversation about spiritual transformation. Dannielle shares her profound journey through spirituality, with a particular focus on how motherhood served as a powerful catalyst for her spiritual awakening.
Episode Highlights:
- Transformative Birth Experiences: Dannielle describes her two childbirth experiences as spiritual initiations, with her second birth culminating in what she describes as an orgasmic, peak experience that connected her to something greater than herself.
- Early Spiritual Influences: The loss of her father at age three created an early need to make sense of life's bigger questions, while her university studies in both psychology and Eastern religions revealed powerful parallels between these disciplines.
- Breathwork as a Spiritual Tool: Following a suggestion from her doula, Danielle discovered how breathwork could access similar transformative states she experienced during childbirth, including kundalini-like energy rising through her body.
- A Non-Pathologizing Approach to Mental Health: Dannielle shares her perspective that many mental health challenges represent "our souls signaling to wake up" rather than pathologies to be fixed.
- Professional Integration: She discusses how integrating spirituality into her clinical practice helps prevent burnout by recognizing there are larger forces at work and that "life happens for you, not to you."
- Book Recommendations: Dannielle recommends "The Stormy Search for Self" by Stanislav Grof and "Falling Forward" by Richard Rohr for listeners interested in exploring spirituality further.
Dannielle can be reached on Instagram @affectivepsychology_breath
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tatiana (00:00):
Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to
(00:02):
share something special withyou.
If you've been listening to ourconversations about integrating
spirituality into therapy, youmight be wondering where to
start with your own clients.
To help you with that, I'vecreated a free guide called 20
Client Conversation Starters, XExploring Spirituality
(00:24):
Ethically.
Now, these aren't just anyrandom questions.
They're carefully craftedprompts designed to open up
meaningful dialogue whilerespecting ethical boundaries
and diverse beliefs.
With each question, you will begiven a context for when and how
to raise it with a client toprovide you with that extra
(00:47):
guidance.
You can download this guideright now by heading to the link
in the show notes.
Let me know how you go withusing this conversation.
Starters, I'd love to hear fromyou.
Now, today's episode.
Welcome to the Integrated WisdomPodcast.
I'm your host, Tatiana DaSilva.
(01:09):
Join me as we discuss what itmeans to live an integrated life
and explore ways for you tocreate a life filled with
greater meaning, peace andconnection by integrating the
wisdom of spirituality,psychology.
Neuroscience, epigenetics andenergy psychology.
(01:31):
I hope to empower you to createdeeper and more loving
connections with yourself andothers, whilst also paving the
way for humanity at large to bereimagined and inspired to
become the very best version ofit.
(01:52):
Hello and welcome to theIntegrated Wisdom Podcast.
I am so excited to bring youjust another, installment of my
Soulful chats.
Today I have a dear friend andcolleague Danielle Kurr me to
talk about her journey throughspirituality.
Danielle Kerr is a compassionateclinical psychologist, schema
(02:13):
therapist and breathworkpractitioner who's dedicated to
helping people break free fromlongstanding patterns of
behavior that hold them backwith a deep understanding of how
early childhood experiencesshape emotional and relational
patterns.
She guides her clients toconnect with their wiser self to
take responsibility for meetingtheir own needs as an adult.
(02:34):
She has an interest in hownon-ordinary states of
consciousness can be used totransform trauma, combining
evidence-based therapy withbreath work.
So conscious connectedbreathing.
Danielle creates a supportivespace with lasting
transformation and helpingpeople rediscover their true
selves.
So welcome, Danielle.
(02:54):
Thank you so much for agreeingto join me today.
Dannielle (02:56):
thank you so much, Tatiana.
I've been really looking forwardto this conversation.
Tatiana (03:01):
So tell, why don't you tell the listeners a little bit
about you and you know
Dannielle (03:06):
Yeah.
Tatiana (03:06):
what you're doing.
Dannielle (03:07):
Okay, so I'm a clinical psychologist who
specializes in using schematherapy in the perinatal period.
So with mothers around birth, Imean, and fathers too.
But I guess that transition frominto parenthood, I suppose.
(03:27):
And there's nothing quite likebecoming a parent that stirs up
early unmet needs fromchildhood.
So I think schema therapy isjust a beautiful fit for this
time.
Tatiana (03:39):
Yeah.
Fantastic.
And I'm sure we'll talk aboutthis a little bit more, but as
we're talking about offline,I've had so many clients, so
many guests mention that,
Dannielle (03:48):
Hmm.
Tatiana (03:49):
Motherhood or the, the transition into motherhood was
such a transformative period oftheir own spiritual journey.
So I'm very interested to hearabout how that that unfolded for
you as
Dannielle (04:00):
Yeah, definitely.
I was thinking about you know,the initial sort of question of
what got me interested inspirituality and I, in, you
know, looking back, you know, myfirst child's now 13 becoming a
mother and childbirth wascertainly, uh, uh, and I, I
believe in initiation.
Uh.
(04:21):
So transformative, the processof kind of preparing for birth
even that, the in, in preparingto give birth.
I, in retrospect, looking backand it can see, you know,
starting to shift inconsciousness.
I was thinking about some of,you know the affirmations that I
(04:43):
used during the birth were frommy favorite band and I'm.
To sound like one of thosestereotypical tool fans, but
banging on about, you know, thedeep meaning of the lyrics.
But when I was pregnant, Ireally heard the lyrics in a new
(05:05):
way.
So, you know, I, I'll give you acouple of examples.
So life is eternal or this painis an illusion.
Me and reaching out to embracethe random, reaching out to
embrace whatever may come.
So these were particular lyricsthat really spoke to me in a new
(05:28):
way.
And you know, I kind of grabbedhold of those to help me prepare
for, I guess, the birthingprocess, which.
It's obviously a big dealgetting a baby out of you.
Tatiana (05:46):
Absolutely.
And what beautiful words, right?
Like just so apt and profoundfor that moment, but I guess
even for life, right?
Like when we think about
Dannielle (05:56):
exactly.
Tatiana (05:57):
being on this planet.
Yeah.
Dannielle (06:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, yeah.
And so I think in, you know,with my with my son's birth,
this.
Deep experience of kind ofturning inwards.
It was something I'd neverreally experienced before, that
deep connection inwards, and itwas so peaceful and so present
(06:27):
to my body.
And I remember it just at thepoint where I was about to birth
him.
Like I could hear the cry ofanother woman and it just
connected me to something reallyancient and really primal about
(06:48):
women.
I.
Yeah.
And then out, out he came and itwas the most glorious kind of
feeling to, to, to see thishuman.
You know, that you have grownand is a part of you and you
know now in your arms.
Mm.
Tatiana (07:07):
Yeah.
Wow.
It sounds so
Dannielle (07:10):
Yeah.
So that was the first timearound and.
Second time around.
I had had, so I think two reallyinteresting experiences that my,
so I had a doula for bothbirths.
She's actually paid, played areally important part I guess in
my spiritual journey.
(07:32):
So second time around, she wascoming over.
We were gonna have, well, I wasgonna have a home birth, and she
had come around to dropsomething off and I was like,
I'm not ready, I'm not ready forthis.
And she's like, oh.
And I hadn't had that experiencefirst time around.
And and she was, uh, you know,asking me some questions and I
was like, I don't know.
(07:52):
I just, I'm just not ready.
And then.
I was kind of putting my son tobed and thinking, how do I love
a another human as much as Ilove you, how do I kind of split
my heart?
Well, in two, I don't know ifthat's the right word, but yeah.
Is there enough Love to goaround, I suppose, and.
(08:16):
I kind of reflected on, so I'm afirstborn and reflecting on, I
guess, what my experience waswhen I had a sibling that ca
came along.
Obviously the birth of asubsequent, you know, child and
a sibling is a huge transitionfor, for a child.
You know, going from the soleapple of, you know, your
(08:38):
parents' kind of eyes to nowhaving to share that attention
with a sibling.
So kind of connected to that,but also the fact that when I
was three and a half and mybrother was born, eight weeks
later, my dad passed away inreally tragic, kind of
unexpected circumstances.
(09:00):
And so.
I really kind of felt, oh mygosh, there was that first born
loss, but also this devastatingco-occurrence where, you know,
dads often kind of step up andhave a much more active role
with that.
You know, old, first born child.
And so I'd kind of had thisdouble whammy kind of loss.
(09:24):
So I had this big emotionalrelease, cried my eyes out for
that poor little girl that kindof went through this double
whammy.
And then I got up and I wasready.
I was ready to birth this childNow.
Tatiana (09:39):
Wow.
Dannielle (09:39):
Yeah.
And in the actual birth I hadthis moment.
So a lot of people I think, talkabout birth being transformative
and often it's through a sort oftraumatic experience.
You know, they've kind of facedyou know, this intersection of
(10:00):
life and death.
There is something that happensin the birth where they.
Fear for the life of themselvesor most often their child.
And that's the catalyst fortheir kind of spiritual growth.
For me, I feel like I had adifferent kind of avenue where
it was like a peak experiencerather than a traumatic
(10:23):
experience.
Tatiana (10:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dannielle (10:25):
So during the birth of, uh, my daughter, after I'd
had that big kind of emotionalrelease.
I remember this particular partwhere again, favorite band had
like music on, had my doula kindof at one end massaging me and
my partner at the other kind ofmassaging my head and I had this
(10:46):
moment of like, my body kind ofdissolving away.
It was kind of like fireworksgoing off in, it was the most
intense, amazing sensations thatI'd guess I.
Experienced, I might call it akind of orgasmic birth kind of
Tatiana (11:06):
Whoa.
Dannielle (11:07):
moment, but it was like, yeah, incredible.
And afterwards I had a debriefwith my doula.
I was talking about how angry Iwas that I felt like the midwife
had sort of come in, observed meand it took me out of the
(11:29):
experience.
And I quite angry that it hadruined the, the moment, right?
Yeah, exactly.
And through kind of debriefingwith my doula, I kind of
actually.
Transform the way that I lookedat it, rather than being annoyed
(11:51):
or angry that it had ended, Iwas able to look at it, that I
was just deeply grateful forthat experience.
And also she shared with methat, you know, some people, uh,
reports experiencing verysimilar experiences through
(12:14):
breath work.
So in that moment, I was savedfrom having to continuously
trace the dragon through havingmore babies and.
Could actually explore, I guess,that he experienced more through
breath.
Tatiana (12:32):
Wow, that is fa like, I'm actually mind blowing
hearing that story because Ihaven't heard of a birthing
experience like that.
It sounds just mind blowing andYeah, quite transformative in so
many ways.
Dannielle (12:47):
yeah, yeah.
It was pretty yeah, verygrateful to have had that
experience.
Tatiana (12:52):
Yeah.
Wow.
And I guess like as we talk alittle bit more about, you know,
some of the work that you do, wecan expand on the role that
Breathwork has then had for you,but maybe we can go back to the
beginning.
What would you say was the firstthing that sparked your interest
in spirituality?
Dannielle (13:10):
Yeah.
So I guess looking back on itit's hard to know.
Particularly when it started.
I've heard you sort of talk onthe podcast about the Celestine
prophecy and I remember being ateenager and reading that book
and so actually that wasprobably pretty, pretty
(13:31):
informative.
But I think, you know, havinglost a parent at such an early
age.
I think actually there was a lotof trying to make sense, like of
why that had happened.
Yeah, so actually I think thatwas a big kind of catalyst.
Tatiana (13:52):
obviously grief can have it can open up those
questions for us, right?
Those higher questions that wecan, we can so often.
Kid ourselves into thinkingwe're gonna live forever.
Everyone's got, everyone we loveis gonna live forever.
And then we go through a losslike that.
And it, it makes you reallyreevaluate everything that
matters and also why we're here.
And you, you ask those biggerquestions, don't you?
Dannielle (14:13):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
And particularly being so.
Little, it kind of, I don'tknow.
It's an iterative kind of grief.
It's you're far too young at thetime to really grieve.
I think that grief definitelycame later and breath work was
actually a really part of meaccessing that grief and really
(14:36):
feeling it rather than.
Kind of intellectually knowingabout it.
Tatiana (14:41):
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so would you, what would yousay was the first spiritual
concept?
That you started exploring withwhen you were ready?
Like when you understood, youknow, that this was a path that
you wanted to know more about?
Dannielle (14:55):
so just as you ask that question, I'm reminded that
at uni when I was studyingabnormal psychology, so I did
Asian studies and science as myundergrad, I had abnormal
psychology and the Eastern, Iwas studying Eastern religions
at the same time.
And so we were learning abouthow it's not, uh, it's not the
(15:19):
external circumstances thatinfluence how we feel about
them.
It's our perception of them.
It's the meaning that we give tothose circumstances.
So.
That was a pretty light bulbmoment for me, and that actually
(15:39):
both of those, yep.
That was psychology.
But yes, we've got these ancientphilosophies that have been
grappling with this same thingfor, you know, centuries.
Tatiana (15:51):
Yes.
Dannielle (15:52):
Yeah.
So thinking about it.
Yeah, there has always been alittle bit of that overlap, I
think for me, in my interest inpsychology, how we understand
why we're here with those kindof eastern philosophies or
religions.
(16:13):
Mm.
Tatiana (16:13):
Yeah.
Interesting.
And so at what point did youstart to, I guess, incorporate
some of these spiritualperspectives or maybe even
practices into your life, andwhat benefit do you think it's
had for you personally on apersonal level to start
Dannielle (16:30):
so I remember, I remember doing my masters and.
So I was finishing it off whileI was having the kids.
So I'd had these sort ofexperiences.
And actually if I can go backand sort of also share, I guess
the role of my uncle in my lifeas well.
(16:50):
So he was a bit of a black sheepin the family, kind of spend a,
spend a bit of time estranged.
And I remember meeting him forthe first time and he was always
like, really interesting andcool.
And he'd, you know, traveled andwas into all this kind of
alternative stuff that myfamily.
(17:10):
Just generally wasn't interestedin, and I remember as a
teenager, he was trying to talkto me about some of these
things.
You know, there's more to thislife than just physical matter.
Right.
And I was probably, well, I wasdefinitely, I like to call it
(17:30):
that I was an obnoxious atheistat that point.
I was all about the science andmeasuring, and if you can't
measure it, then it's not real.
And
Tatiana (17:41):
Yeah,
Dannielle (17:42):
yeah, I would've been pretty difficult to be around.
And so I had these interactionswith him where I was really
focused on tearing him down.
Like it feels gross to kind ofsay that now, but you know, I
guess I was a typical teenagerthinking that I knew more than
Tatiana (17:59):
yeah.
Dannielle (18:00):
anyone else.
Tatiana (18:01):
We've.
Dannielle (18:02):
Yep.
And then when I started kind ofhaving these transit changes as
I became a mother, I reallywanted to now talk to him about
some of these things, but hejust wouldn't, no, he was, was
not kind of in, wasn't going toopen himself up again.
But when he passed away, so Ithink my daughter was about six
(18:26):
months old at the time.
I had gone up to look after mygrandmother, oh, sorry, my
grandfather.
So my MO grandmother could goand be with him when he passed,
Tatiana (18:35):
Okay.
Dannielle (18:36):
and I found out that he had died.
Laid down in bed with mydaughter and, you know,
snuggling with her and I feltthis presence sit down on the
end of the bed and kind of likehold my ankle.
And I felt this energy to shootup.
(18:57):
My whole body felt this warmthand love just permeate.
And I was like, I knew you'dcome.
Tatiana (19:06):
Oh,
Dannielle (19:06):
love you.
Yeah.
It's, yeah, I love you.
Be free.
And it's like in his death, hegave me this beautiful gift that
no amount of conversation thatwe could have had whilst he was
still alive would've actuallyhad anything as profound as that
(19:31):
moment for me.
Tatiana (19:33):
Yeah.
He could show you rather thantell you.
Right?
Dannielle (19:37):
Yeah.
Tatiana (19:37):
Yeah.
Sorry.
I actually feel very emotionalby this.
Like that's just beautiful.
Dannielle (19:41):
Thank you.
Yeah.
Tatiana (19:44):
Yeah.
Wow.
Dannielle (19:46):
Yeah.
I, I feel the shivers every timeI,
Tatiana (19:49):
I chills my whole body.
Dannielle (19:52):
yeah.
So that was I guess anotherreally important thing that I'd
experienced, which then leads meinto doing masters and doing a
group assignment on CBT forpsychosis.
Going through some of thecriteria for psychosis and oh.
(20:12):
Ooh, like there were a few sortof things that sort of resonated
with me.
The idea of finding meaning inthings and synchronicity and
things like that was funny.
I actually went back to look atthe psychosis criteria.
Couldn't find actually anythinglike the things that actually
(20:35):
resonated with me at the time.
Tatiana (20:37):
Oh, interesting.
Dannielle (20:39):
What it did at that moment when I was like, oh, like
this is weird'cause I'mresonating with this.
So for some reason I typed intoGoogle psychosis versus
spiritual awakening.
I.
And then I had Phil Borg's TEDTalk come up where he was
discussing that in indigenouscultures, those, you know,
(21:02):
individuals who, you know, looklike they're having a psychotic
experience would actually beidentified and initiated as a
shaman and.
So that was actually reallytransformative in the way that I
actually saw presenting to me.
(21:26):
And I think even at uni Iremember buying a book called
Creating Mental Illness, and itwas discussing the pathologizing
of, you know, the humanexperience.
Tatiana (21:36):
Wow.
Dannielle (21:37):
over-diagnosis of diagnostic criteria.
And so I feel like it's reallyshaped how I view mental
illness.
I sometimes kind of joke that Ithink I'm a terrible clinical
psychologist because I don'tbelieve in mental illness.
But it's the framework that Iguess we, that,
Tatiana (21:59):
Yeah.
We have to work with.
Dannielle (22:01):
generally our culture kind of exists in.
But I deeply believe thatdepression, anxiety, a lot of
you know, the reasons why peoplepresent under a mental
healthcare plan are actually oursouls kind of signaling,
Tatiana (22:14):
Hmm.
Dannielle (22:16):
you know, to wake up and we've gotta transform, we've
gotta identify and then.
Update outdated beliefs aboutourselves that made sense at one
point in our life, but are nolonger serving us and are
limiting us, keeping us awayfrom, I guess living our true,
authentic life.
Tatiana (22:36):
Yeah.
Not living in integrity, right?
Like that's causes so much ofthat, that con dis confidence
offering.
Dannielle (22:42):
Yeah.
So I, yeah, I think it justpermeates, I guess, how I.
See my role working with people.
Tatiana (22:52):
Mm.
Oh, how, how beautiful.
I guess, I mean, you've just ledit so nicely into the next
question because I, I'm curiousto know how it then transformed
your work or how it enhancedyour work.
Dannielle (23:05):
Yeah, so I think moving away from a pathology
viewpoint and, you know, if Ithink about, you know, my areas
of interest, you know, workingwith the, you know, parent
child, that early attachment.
It's all about, you know,relationships.
(23:27):
It's very relational.
And then my experience withbreath work was very kind of,
somatic working with alteredstates of consciousness and
actually becoming very deeplycomfortable with having no idea
what's gonna happen.
(23:50):
You sit down and support someoneto breathe, you have no idea.
What is going to emerge Andoftentimes in supporting them,
you may not know what the fullprocess is, but you are holding
that sort of space for them and,and of course helping to process
some of, I guess, the materialsthat is coming up.
(24:12):
But I felt like both of thoseexp experience, the relational,
the being present with theunknown,
Tatiana (24:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dannielle (24:19):
and trusting that everything is going to work out
really helped when I came toschema therapy.
Tatiana (24:27):
Yeah.
Well,
Dannielle (24:28):
when I did come to schema therapy, it felt like
putting a glove on, it wasreally,
Tatiana (24:34):
yeah.
Dannielle (24:35):
A beautiful kind of combination of.
Those early work experiences orembodiment.
Tatiana (24:46):
Is there any other way which you feel like it, it
influenced the way that youwork, that you wouldn't
potentially have had you notgone down that path?
Dannielle (24:54):
Yeah, it's always hard to know how.
Tatiana (24:58):
Yeah.
Dannielle (25:00):
Well, I think a recent kind of shift for me is
being introduced to the ideathat, you know, like life is
happening for you not to, and,So think that idea helps to get
(25:20):
a little bit of distance fromthe material that clients might
be kind of working with andcoming in and.
I think for so many you know,therapists, we come into this
work because often we wereparentified as a child.
We took on the responsibility ofbeing, you know, looking after
(25:44):
the emotional needs of ourcaregivers.
It's really easy to then.
Kind of take that into workingwith clients as well, which
obviously places a sort of hugerisk for burning out, like
that's gonna come at a hugedetriment to ourselves.
(26:04):
So I think that having a, a spbringing in your own spiritual
kind of perspective.
Helps to actually kind of handback a lot of that
responsibility to the individualand actually what they're here
for in this lifetime.
And I don't know, I don't knowwhat their particular lesson for
(26:27):
this lifetime is and howpresumptuous of me to think,
Tatiana (26:33):
Yeah.
Dannielle (26:34):
you know, that I would know that.
So.
Tatiana (26:38):
Yeah.
Dannielle (26:38):
Yeah, I think that helps to to not take on
ownership for this.
And, you know, we are confrontedsometimes with really awful
situations and have felt thedistress and the unjust of
injustice of people's particularsort of circumstances and.
(27:02):
And I found it really helpful tokind of lean back into that idea
of a higher power, somethingbigger at play here.
Tatiana (27:13):
Yeah.
Dannielle (27:13):
otherwise I think there's a high chance that you
could kind of take on.
Well, I could have taken onthat, you know, responsibility
for trying to solve, you know,someone's situation for them.
Tatiana (27:27):
Uh, absolutely.
And you make such a wonderfulpoint on that because it's true.
Like, I think.
We, it's an occupational hazardwhere we feel like we need to,
you know, it's our job to makepeople better.
It's our job to, you know, givethem what they're looking for.
And it can be so hard to justsit back.
And I remember earlier in mycareer, sometimes the guidance
(27:48):
that I would receive was veryspecific about this.
It was, it's not your job.
To save people.
It's not your job to do theirwork for them.
But it's still, I thinksometimes we still struggle.
Dannielle (28:02):
Yeah.
Tatiana (28:02):
having, Yeah.
Dannielle (28:04):
We're still human at the end of the day.
Right.
But then we catch it and thenhand that back over and,
Tatiana (28:12):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And so, I mean, I know you and Ihave spoken about this in, in,
uh, previously about the fearthat I personally felt.
Dannielle (28:21):
Hmm.
Tatiana (28:22):
These two parts of me, right?
Like really owning my spiritualside and the fear of
repercussion around thatprofessionally.
Uh, I'm wondering whether youexperienced similar fears and
how you came to overcome them.
Dannielle (28:36):
Yeah, so.
I think there is this kind ofrooted history for me of seeing,
you know, some spiritualconcepts being quite aligned
with psychology in general.
Tatiana (28:54):
Mm-hmm.
Dannielle (28:55):
I have felt, I.
I kind of comfortable with thataspect.
But I have to say that, youknow, participating in your
group program, Tatiana, theconscious therapist, and you
know, you sharing the importanceof actually meeting, uh, and
(29:15):
being aware of the, the needs ofour clients, which also
cultural, but spiritual factorsin there as well.
I mean, just there was such agoldmine of kind of information
and evidence in there that youshared that that actually really
helped to be less fearful.
Tatiana (29:37):
Oh, how wonderful to hear that.
Yeah.
Dannielle (29:40):
you a little plug there.
Tatiana (29:42):
Ah, I always get uncomfortable when that happens,
but thank you.
Dannielle (29:48):
It's true.
Tatiana (29:49):
But It's true.
isn't it?
Like once we start seeing theevidence, how, how much evidence
there actually is it, it's,yeah.
It makes it so much easier tolet go of the fear, doesn't it?
Dannielle (29:58):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So thank you.
Tatiana (30:01):
Oh no, thank you.
And so what value do youpersonally think there are for
psychologists and therapists inparticular to embrace their
spiritual selves?
Or just at least be more alittle bit more curious about
their spirituality?
Dannielle (30:20):
I mean, the big thing for me, I think is being
protective around againstburnout.
I.
I mean, I do remember takinginto one of my personal breath
work sessions you know, when Iwas feeling particularly
overwhelmed by the suffering inthe world and, you know, the
things that our clients, dealwith and you know, kind of being
(30:46):
asked, you know, is there, youknow, an higher power that you
can kind of give this over to?
And you know, of course withbreath work, fascinating things
emerged and so it's, yeah, forme, I think that has been the
biggest, take away or importanceof bringing in spirituality
(31:07):
because I, I do believe thatwhat we are doing with people is
a spiritual practice.
Yeah, and I guess one of my youknow, there are many lifetimes I
guess to work on this stuff aswell.
So we can only do what we can doand clients will only, I guess,
do what they're call to andwilling enable and what this
(31:32):
lifetime actually presents forthem.
Tatiana (31:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
Now, you, you alluded to somelike, like incredible things
coming out of breath work.
Would you be comfortable toshare maybe like.
Like a mind blowing thing thathappened with like in this vein,
only if you're comfortable.
Dannielle (31:51):
Oh you mean out of all of the breath breathing
experiences?
Tatiana (31:55):
Some, maybe some one that stands out to you as, wow.
Like that was a really spiritualexperience.
Dannielle (32:02):
Yes.
So I guess the thing that kindof comes to mind when you talk
about this is the first timethat I.
Was again, breathing.
And and I felt this heat, uh,rising up my spine with, I
(32:25):
guess, again, the kind of energythat my doula slash breathwork
teacher had shared around thiskind of like sexual energy,
orgasmic energy and, beingconnected to just something so
much bigger and grander than,you know, this little body that
(32:46):
we have.
But and again, tying it back to,I guess seeing the, uh, going
back to another tool song.
So, I was watching the video ofmy favorite tool song, and at
the end of it, it had like, Iguess the idea is like kundalini
and that kind of serpent, youknow, going up the channels,
(33:11):
kind of coming out of the, thecrown and this.
It just represented, I guess,what I, it felt like that
experience had been and kind of,yeah.
Really fascinating to then seethis experience that you'd had
(33:33):
represented in this video clip,which then ties into the
centuries of you know.
Wisdom and philosophy around it.
Tatiana (33:45):
Yeah, Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I know thatbreath work can be such a
transformative experience andevery time it's different, isn't
it?
Like every time you do it, youget something different.
So Yeah, it's, yeah, it'sphenomenal.
Dannielle (34:01):
yeah, absolutely.
And I also think it's just sointeresting that the kind of
grandfathers of, you know.
Modern breath work.
So in the seventies we hadpsychiatrist in the Czech or
Czech.
His Slovakia back then he was apsychiatrist working with LSD.
(34:22):
And then we had, uh, a guy inAmerica who had spontaneous kind
of memories of his birth emergewhile he was in the bath.
Tatiana (34:34):
Oh.
Dannielle (34:35):
So at the same time, these two kind of very different
backgrounds, but exploring whathappens when we connect our
breath.
What are the experiences?
What, what can come about fromaccessing these states of
(34:55):
consciousness?
How can we use it for healingsort of purposes?
Tatiana (35:02):
Wow,
Dannielle (35:03):
Yeah.
Happened at the same timeacross.
Tatiana (35:05):
that's really interesting, isn't it?
Dannielle (35:07):
Uh, very interesting to me.
Tatiana (35:11):
I've read somewhere, I can't recall now where, where I
read this, but apparently when,uh, an idea or a perspective or,
or a, a resource is meant to bemanifested into, into earth,
multiple people are going tohave this insight
Dannielle (35:30):
Wow.
Tatiana (35:31):
and they, so that they can like to fast track it.
Propagation across the theglobe, right?
So different parts of the planetare going to have these
insights, and then it starts to,and you know what's, I don't
know if you've seen, have youseen the movie on Netflix on the
birth of IVF?
Dannielle (35:49):
Oh no.
Oh, yes,
Tatiana (35:51):
Oh, you should watch it.
It's a fantastic, I think it'scalled Joy.
It's beautiful.
Oh, it's just a mind blowingthing, but, so, but it tracks
the, the researchers in the UKwhen they, they basically
originated the first, the firstbaby.
But when I was looking intodoing, like, I did some research
into that, apparently at thesame time in India, I think it
(36:11):
was India.
Oh, my mind's not reliable thesedays, but I'm pretty sure it was
in India.
There was another researcheralso developing an IVF protocol.
Dannielle (36:21):
Wow.
Tatiana (36:22):
Isn't that fascinating?
Dannielle (36:23):
Yeah, and actually as you're talking, I'm pretty sure
don't they talk about that inthe celestine prophecy of that
like critical mass thing?
Tatiana (36:31):
Yes, maybe that's where I read it.
It was so long ago, but I'mpretty sure I read it somewhere
else as well more recently.
But apparently, but apparentlythat does happen.
So Yeah.
it's interesting how these,these examples.
Dannielle (36:49):
Yeah.
Tatiana (36:50):
Oh, how fabulous.
And, and so I guess from yourperspective on like maybe a
final reflection, if you had topick one transformative aspect
of embracing spirituality morefully, both on that personal and
professional level, what aspectwould that be for you?
Dannielle (37:08):
So I, I think the idea that life happens for you
not to you.
Tatiana (37:14):
Yes.
Dannielle (37:15):
Because it touches into, uh, a couple of different
ideas for me.
Mm-hmm.
One is the concept of kind oflike non-duality.
That there is not, like, thereis no good or bad, you know,
like all of our experiencesaren't good or bad, although
it's very easy.
(37:36):
Our mind does kind of do that,but.
Tatiana (37:38):
Like all these things.
Dannielle (37:39):
Yeah.
It's actually all the same.
And think for me, that helps tocome out of a really, uh, a
state of disempowerment.
one of empowerment.
We go from being a victim toactually being in charge of our
(38:00):
lives.
No matter what the circumstancesactually might be, we will
always kind of have a choiceabout how we respond to that.
Tatiana (38:13):
Yes.
Dannielle (38:13):
And so like how aligned is that with psychology
and kind of spiritual concepts?
Tatiana (38:20):
absolutely.
I mean, Frankl himself spokeabout this, right?
That our power lies in choosingthe meaning we give to the
experiences we have.
Yeah.
And it's so true.
It's very empowering to, to beable to, to tap into that truth.
Dannielle (38:34):
Mm.
Yeah.
And I really feel that in mylife at the moment of how these,
like decision points can bewhere we can choose.
To see it in the negative or wecan choose to, you know, em,
embrace it as something that'senhancing our lives rather than
(38:57):
impacting negatively on us.
Tatiana (39:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, this has been such anamazing conversation.
Thank you so much.
Dannielle (39:06):
I've really enjoyed it.
Tatiana (39:08):
But do on.
Segment as you know, where Iget, I guess, to recommend a
transformative spiritual book.
That would be helpful to ourlisteners who want to begin that
journey or want to tap intotheir curiosity about exploring
these things a little bit more.
What would be thatrecommendation for you?
(39:28):
It's gonna be more than one.
I've
Dannielle (39:30):
Okay, great.
Thank goodness, because I havebeen pondering this question a
lot.
I really enjoyed Stanners Law ofGRS book, the Stormy Search for
Self, which talks about, Iguess, uh, spiritual emergency
(39:50):
as,
Tatiana (39:51):
Hmm
Dannielle (39:51):
I guess that kind of idea of, what might look like
mental illness can often beactually our spiritual
breakthrough.
So I really enjoyed that book.
Another book that just kind ofkeeps coming to mind is by a
Benedictine, I think I've gotthat Benedictine.
Anyway, a monk, called FallingForward, and it's, his name's
(40:15):
Richard Raw.
So it kind of talks about youknow, how those moments where we
fall down are our moments ofkind of transformation.
Tatiana (40:24):
Yes.
Oh, how beautiful.
Love that.
Dannielle (40:28):
But thanks for not limiting me to one.
Tatiana (40:30):
No, no.
And I'll add like the links tothe show notes on, for both
those books.
And why don't you share a littlebit about also what you've been
doing and where people can findyou.
Dannielle (40:41):
Yeah.
So, people can, probably thebest place to find me would be
on the socials that affectivepsychology and breath.
Tatiana (40:51):
Oh, beautiful.
Well put thanks on the shownotes for you for there as well.
But again, thank you so muchDanielle for, for joining me
today for sharing all yourwisdom and experiences and your
vulnerability.
I really, really appreciatethat.
Dannielle (41:03):
Yeah.
Thank you so much Tatiana.
I really love what you're doingin the world.
Tatiana (41:07):
Oh, thank you and thank you so much for listening, and
we'll see you all next time.
Dannielle (41:12):
Thank you.
Tatiana (41:13):
Bye.
Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to
(00:02):
share something special withyou.
If you've been listening to ourconversations about integrating
spirituality into therapy, youmight be wondering where to
start with your own clients.
To help you with that, I'vecreated a free guide called 20
Client Conversation Starters, XExploring Spirituality
(00:24):
Ethically.
Now, these aren't just anyrandom questions.
They're carefully craftedprompts designed to open up
meaningful dialogue whilerespecting ethical boundaries
and diverse beliefs.
With each question, you will begiven a context for when and how
to raise it with a client toprovide you with that extra
(00:47):
guidance.
You can download this guideright now by heading to the link
in the show notes.
Let me know how you go withusing this conversation.
Starters, I'd love to hear fromyou.
Now, today's episode.
Welcome to the Integrated WisdomPodcast.
I'm your host, Tatiana DaSilva.
(01:09):
Join me as we discuss what itmeans to live an integrated life
and explore ways for you tocreate a life filled with
greater meaning, peace andconnection by integrating the
wisdom of spirituality,psychology.
Neuroscience, epigenetics andenergy psychology.
(01:31):
I hope to empower you to createdeeper and more loving
connections with yourself andothers, whilst also paving the
way for humanity at large to bereimagined and inspired to
become the very best version ofit.
(01:52):
Hello and welcome to theIntegrated Wisdom Podcast.
I am so excited to bring youjust another, installment of my
Soulful chats.
Today I have a dear friend andcolleague Danielle Kurr me to
talk about her journey throughspirituality.
Danielle Kerr is a compassionateclinical psychologist, schema
(02:13):
therapist and breathworkpractitioner who's dedicated to
helping people break free fromlongstanding patterns of
behavior that hold them backwith a deep understanding of how
early childhood experiencesshape emotional and relational
patterns.
She guides her clients toconnect with their wiser self to
take responsibility for meetingtheir own needs as an adult.
(02:34):
She has an interest in hownon-ordinary states of
consciousness can be used totransform trauma, combining
evidence-based therapy withbreath work.
So conscious connectedbreathing.
Danielle creates a supportivespace with lasting
transformation and helpingpeople rediscover their true
selves.
So welcome, Danielle.
(02:54):
Thank you so much for agreeingto join me today.
Dannielle (02:56):
thank you so much, Tatiana.
I've been really looking forwardto this conversation.
Tatiana (03:01):
So tell, why don't you tell the listeners a little bit
about you and you know
Dannielle (03:06):
Yeah.
Tatiana (03:06):
what you're doing.
Dannielle (03:07):
Okay, so I'm a clinical psychologist who
specializes in using schematherapy in the perinatal period.
So with mothers around birth, Imean, and fathers too.
But I guess that transition frominto parenthood, I suppose.
(03:27):
And there's nothing quite likebecoming a parent that stirs up
early unmet needs fromchildhood.
So I think schema therapy isjust a beautiful fit for this
time.
Tatiana (03:39):
Yeah.
Fantastic.
And I'm sure we'll talk aboutthis a little bit more, but as
we're talking about offline,I've had so many clients, so
many guests mention that,
Dannielle (03:48):
Hmm.
Tatiana (03:49):
Motherhood or the, the transition into motherhood was
such a transformative period oftheir own spiritual journey.
So I'm very interested to hearabout how that that unfolded for
you as
Dannielle (04:00):
Yeah, definitely.
I was thinking about you know,the initial sort of question of
what got me interested inspirituality and I, in, you
know, looking back, you know, myfirst child's now 13 becoming a
mother and childbirth wascertainly, uh, uh, and I, I
believe in initiation.
Uh.
(04:21):
So transformative, the processof kind of preparing for birth
even that, the in, in preparingto give birth.
I, in retrospect, looking backand it can see, you know,
starting to shift inconsciousness.
I was thinking about some of,you know the affirmations that I
(04:43):
used during the birth were frommy favorite band and I'm.
To sound like one of thosestereotypical tool fans, but
banging on about, you know, thedeep meaning of the lyrics.
But when I was pregnant, Ireally heard the lyrics in a new
(05:05):
way.
So, you know, I, I'll give you acouple of examples.
So life is eternal or this painis an illusion.
Me and reaching out to embracethe random, reaching out to
embrace whatever may come.
So these were particular lyricsthat really spoke to me in a new
(05:28):
way.
And you know, I kind of grabbedhold of those to help me prepare
for, I guess, the birthingprocess, which.
It's obviously a big dealgetting a baby out of you.
Tatiana (05:46):
Absolutely.
And what beautiful words, right?
Like just so apt and profoundfor that moment, but I guess
even for life, right?
Like when we think about
Dannielle (05:56):
exactly.
Tatiana (05:57):
being on this planet.
Yeah.
Dannielle (06:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, yeah.
And so I think in, you know,with my with my son's birth,
this.
Deep experience of kind ofturning inwards.
It was something I'd neverreally experienced before, that
deep connection inwards, and itwas so peaceful and so present
(06:27):
to my body.
And I remember it just at thepoint where I was about to birth
him.
Like I could hear the cry ofanother woman and it just
connected me to something reallyancient and really primal about
(06:48):
women.
I.
Yeah.
And then out, out he came and itwas the most glorious kind of
feeling to, to, to see thishuman.
You know, that you have grownand is a part of you and you
know now in your arms.
Mm.
Tatiana (07:07):
Yeah.
Wow.
It sounds so
Dannielle (07:10):
Yeah.
So that was the first timearound and.
Second time around.
I had had, so I think two reallyinteresting experiences that my,
so I had a doula for bothbirths.
She's actually paid, played areally important part I guess in
my spiritual journey.
(07:32):
So second time around, she wascoming over.
We were gonna have, well, I wasgonna have a home birth, and she
had come around to dropsomething off and I was like,
I'm not ready, I'm not ready forthis.
And she's like, oh.
And I hadn't had that experiencefirst time around.
And and she was, uh, you know,asking me some questions and I
was like, I don't know.
(07:52):
I just, I'm just not ready.
And then.
I was kind of putting my son tobed and thinking, how do I love
a another human as much as Ilove you, how do I kind of split
my heart?
Well, in two, I don't know ifthat's the right word, but yeah.
Is there enough Love to goaround, I suppose, and.
(08:16):
I kind of reflected on, so I'm afirstborn and reflecting on, I
guess, what my experience waswhen I had a sibling that ca
came along.
Obviously the birth of asubsequent, you know, child and
a sibling is a huge transitionfor, for a child.
You know, going from the soleapple of, you know, your
(08:38):
parents' kind of eyes to nowhaving to share that attention
with a sibling.
So kind of connected to that,but also the fact that when I
was three and a half and mybrother was born, eight weeks
later, my dad passed away inreally tragic, kind of
unexpected circumstances.
(09:00):
And so.
I really kind of felt, oh mygosh, there was that first born
loss, but also this devastatingco-occurrence where, you know,
dads often kind of step up andhave a much more active role
with that.
You know, old, first born child.
And so I'd kind of had thisdouble whammy kind of loss.
(09:24):
So I had this big emotionalrelease, cried my eyes out for
that poor little girl that kindof went through this double
whammy.
And then I got up and I wasready.
I was ready to birth this childNow.
Tatiana (09:39):
Wow.
Dannielle (09:39):
Yeah.
And in the actual birth I hadthis moment.
So a lot of people I think, talkabout birth being transformative
and often it's through a sort oftraumatic experience.
You know, they've kind of facedyou know, this intersection of
(10:00):
life and death.
There is something that happensin the birth where they.
Fear for the life of themselvesor most often their child.
And that's the catalyst fortheir kind of spiritual growth.
For me, I feel like I had adifferent kind of avenue where
it was like a peak experiencerather than a traumatic
(10:23):
experience.
Tatiana (10:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dannielle (10:25):
So during the birth of, uh, my daughter, after I'd
had that big kind of emotionalrelease.
I remember this particular partwhere again, favorite band had
like music on, had my doula kindof at one end massaging me and
my partner at the other kind ofmassaging my head and I had this
(10:46):
moment of like, my body kind ofdissolving away.
It was kind of like fireworksgoing off in, it was the most
intense, amazing sensations thatI'd guess I.
Experienced, I might call it akind of orgasmic birth kind of
Tatiana (11:06):
Whoa.
Dannielle (11:07):
moment, but it was like, yeah, incredible.
And afterwards I had a debriefwith my doula.
I was talking about how angry Iwas that I felt like the midwife
had sort of come in, observed meand it took me out of the
(11:29):
experience.
And I quite angry that it hadruined the, the moment, right?
Yeah, exactly.
And through kind of debriefingwith my doula, I kind of
actually.
Transform the way that I lookedat it, rather than being annoyed
(11:51):
or angry that it had ended, Iwas able to look at it, that I
was just deeply grateful forthat experience.
And also she shared with methat, you know, some people, uh,
reports experiencing verysimilar experiences through
(12:14):
breath work.
So in that moment, I was savedfrom having to continuously
trace the dragon through havingmore babies and.
Could actually explore, I guess,that he experienced more through
breath.
Tatiana (12:32):
Wow, that is fa like, I'm actually mind blowing
hearing that story because Ihaven't heard of a birthing
experience like that.
It sounds just mind blowing andYeah, quite transformative in so
many ways.
Dannielle (12:47):
yeah, yeah.
It was pretty yeah, verygrateful to have had that
experience.
Tatiana (12:52):
Yeah.
Wow.
And I guess like as we talk alittle bit more about, you know,
some of the work that you do, wecan expand on the role that
Breathwork has then had for you,but maybe we can go back to the
beginning.
What would you say was the firstthing that sparked your interest
in spirituality?
Dannielle (13:10):
Yeah.
So I guess looking back on itit's hard to know.
Particularly when it started.
I've heard you sort of talk onthe podcast about the Celestine
prophecy and I remember being ateenager and reading that book
and so actually that wasprobably pretty, pretty
(13:31):
informative.
But I think, you know, havinglost a parent at such an early
age.
I think actually there was a lotof trying to make sense, like of
why that had happened.
Yeah, so actually I think thatwas a big kind of catalyst.
Tatiana (13:52):
obviously grief can have it can open up those
questions for us, right?
Those higher questions that wecan, we can so often.
Kid ourselves into thinkingwe're gonna live forever.
Everyone's got, everyone we loveis gonna live forever.
And then we go through a losslike that.
And it, it makes you reallyreevaluate everything that
matters and also why we're here.
And you, you ask those biggerquestions, don't you?
Dannielle (14:13):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
And particularly being so.
Little, it kind of, I don'tknow.
It's an iterative kind of grief.
It's you're far too young at thetime to really grieve.
I think that grief definitelycame later and breath work was
actually a really part of meaccessing that grief and really
(14:36):
feeling it rather than.
Kind of intellectually knowingabout it.
Tatiana (14:41):
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so would you, what would yousay was the first spiritual
concept?
That you started exploring withwhen you were ready?
Like when you understood, youknow, that this was a path that
you wanted to know more about?
Dannielle (14:55):
so just as you ask that question, I'm reminded that
at uni when I was studyingabnormal psychology, so I did
Asian studies and science as myundergrad, I had abnormal
psychology and the Eastern, Iwas studying Eastern religions
at the same time.
And so we were learning abouthow it's not, uh, it's not the
(15:19):
external circumstances thatinfluence how we feel about
them.
It's our perception of them.
It's the meaning that we give tothose circumstances.
So.
That was a pretty light bulbmoment for me, and that actually
(15:39):
both of those, yep.
That was psychology.
But yes, we've got these ancientphilosophies that have been
grappling with this same thingfor, you know, centuries.
Tatiana (15:51):
Yes.
Dannielle (15:52):
Yeah.
So thinking about it.
Yeah, there has always been alittle bit of that overlap, I
think for me, in my interest inpsychology, how we understand
why we're here with those kindof eastern philosophies or
religions.
(16:13):
Mm.
Tatiana (16:13):
Yeah.
Interesting.
And so at what point did youstart to, I guess, incorporate
some of these spiritualperspectives or maybe even
practices into your life, andwhat benefit do you think it's
had for you personally on apersonal level to start
Dannielle (16:30):
so I remember, I remember doing my masters and.
So I was finishing it off whileI was having the kids.
So I'd had these sort ofexperiences.
And actually if I can go backand sort of also share, I guess
the role of my uncle in my lifeas well.
(16:50):
So he was a bit of a black sheepin the family, kind of spend a,
spend a bit of time estranged.
And I remember meeting him forthe first time and he was always
like, really interesting andcool.
And he'd, you know, traveled andwas into all this kind of
alternative stuff that myfamily.
(17:10):
Just generally wasn't interestedin, and I remember as a
teenager, he was trying to talkto me about some of these
things.
You know, there's more to thislife than just physical matter.
Right.
And I was probably, well, I wasdefinitely, I like to call it
(17:30):
that I was an obnoxious atheistat that point.
I was all about the science andmeasuring, and if you can't
measure it, then it's not real.
And
Tatiana (17:41):
Yeah,
Dannielle (17:42):
yeah, I would've been pretty difficult to be around.
And so I had these interactionswith him where I was really
focused on tearing him down.
Like it feels gross to kind ofsay that now, but you know, I
guess I was a typical teenagerthinking that I knew more than
Tatiana (17:59):
yeah.
Dannielle (18:00):
anyone else.
Tatiana (18:01):
We've.
Dannielle (18:02):
Yep.
And then when I started kind ofhaving these transit changes as
I became a mother, I reallywanted to now talk to him about
some of these things, but hejust wouldn't, no, he was, was
not kind of in, wasn't going toopen himself up again.
But when he passed away, so Ithink my daughter was about six
(18:26):
months old at the time.
I had gone up to look after mygrandmother, oh, sorry, my
grandfather.
So my MO grandmother could goand be with him when he passed,
Tatiana (18:35):
Okay.
Dannielle (18:36):
and I found out that he had died.
Laid down in bed with mydaughter and, you know,
snuggling with her and I feltthis presence sit down on the
end of the bed and kind of likehold my ankle.
And I felt this energy to shootup.
(18:57):
My whole body felt this warmthand love just permeate.
And I was like, I knew you'dcome.
Tatiana (19:06):
Oh,
Dannielle (19:06):
love you.
Yeah.
It's, yeah, I love you.
Be free.
And it's like in his death, hegave me this beautiful gift that
no amount of conversation thatwe could have had whilst he was
still alive would've actuallyhad anything as profound as that
(19:31):
moment for me.
Tatiana (19:33):
Yeah.
He could show you rather thantell you.
Right?
Dannielle (19:37):
Yeah.
Tatiana (19:37):
Yeah.
Sorry.
I actually feel very emotionalby this.
Like that's just beautiful.
Dannielle (19:41):
Thank you.
Yeah.
Tatiana (19:44):
Yeah.
Wow.
Dannielle (19:46):
Yeah.
I, I feel the shivers every timeI,
Tatiana (19:49):
I chills my whole body.
Dannielle (19:52):
yeah.
So that was I guess anotherreally important thing that I'd
experienced, which then leads meinto doing masters and doing a
group assignment on CBT forpsychosis.
Going through some of thecriteria for psychosis and oh.
(20:12):
Ooh, like there were a few sortof things that sort of resonated
with me.
The idea of finding meaning inthings and synchronicity and
things like that was funny.
I actually went back to look atthe psychosis criteria.
Couldn't find actually anythinglike the things that actually
(20:35):
resonated with me at the time.
Tatiana (20:37):
Oh, interesting.
Dannielle (20:39):
What it did at that moment when I was like, oh, like
this is weird'cause I'mresonating with this.
So for some reason I typed intoGoogle psychosis versus
spiritual awakening.
I.
And then I had Phil Borg's TEDTalk come up where he was
discussing that in indigenouscultures, those, you know,
(21:02):
individuals who, you know, looklike they're having a psychotic
experience would actually beidentified and initiated as a
shaman and.
So that was actually reallytransformative in the way that I
actually saw presenting to me.
(21:26):
And I think even at uni Iremember buying a book called
Creating Mental Illness, and itwas discussing the pathologizing
of, you know, the humanexperience.
Tatiana (21:36):
Wow.
Dannielle (21:37):
over-diagnosis of diagnostic criteria.
And so I feel like it's reallyshaped how I view mental
illness.
I sometimes kind of joke that Ithink I'm a terrible clinical
psychologist because I don'tbelieve in mental illness.
But it's the framework that Iguess we, that,
Tatiana (21:59):
Yeah.
We have to work with.
Dannielle (22:01):
generally our culture kind of exists in.
But I deeply believe thatdepression, anxiety, a lot of
you know, the reasons why peoplepresent under a mental
healthcare plan are actually oursouls kind of signaling,
Tatiana (22:14):
Hmm.
Dannielle (22:16):
you know, to wake up and we've gotta transform, we've
gotta identify and then.
Update outdated beliefs aboutourselves that made sense at one
point in our life, but are nolonger serving us and are
limiting us, keeping us awayfrom, I guess living our true,
authentic life.
Tatiana (22:36):
Yeah.
Not living in integrity, right?
Like that's causes so much ofthat, that con dis confidence
offering.
Dannielle (22:42):
Yeah.
So I, yeah, I think it justpermeates, I guess, how I.
See my role working with people.
Tatiana (22:52):
Mm.
Oh, how, how beautiful.
I guess, I mean, you've just ledit so nicely into the next
question because I, I'm curiousto know how it then transformed
your work or how it enhancedyour work.
Dannielle (23:05):
Yeah, so I think moving away from a pathology
viewpoint and, you know, if Ithink about, you know, my areas
of interest, you know, workingwith the, you know, parent
child, that early attachment.
It's all about, you know,relationships.
(23:27):
It's very relational.
And then my experience withbreath work was very kind of,
somatic working with alteredstates of consciousness and
actually becoming very deeplycomfortable with having no idea
what's gonna happen.
(23:50):
You sit down and support someoneto breathe, you have no idea.
What is going to emerge Andoftentimes in supporting them,
you may not know what the fullprocess is, but you are holding
that sort of space for them and,and of course helping to process
some of, I guess, the materialsthat is coming up.
(24:12):
But I felt like both of thoseexp experience, the relational,
the being present with theunknown,
Tatiana (24:18):
Mm-hmm.
Dannielle (24:19):
and trusting that everything is going to work out
really helped when I came toschema therapy.
Tatiana (24:27):
Yeah.
Well,
Dannielle (24:28):
when I did come to schema therapy, it felt like
putting a glove on, it wasreally,
Tatiana (24:34):
yeah.
Dannielle (24:35):
A beautiful kind of combination of.
Those early work experiences orembodiment.
Tatiana (24:46):
Is there any other way which you feel like it, it
influenced the way that youwork, that you wouldn't
potentially have had you notgone down that path?
Dannielle (24:54):
Yeah, it's always hard to know how.
Tatiana (24:58):
Yeah.
Dannielle (25:00):
Well, I think a recent kind of shift for me is
being introduced to the ideathat, you know, like life is
happening for you not to, and,So think that idea helps to get
(25:20):
a little bit of distance fromthe material that clients might
be kind of working with andcoming in and.
I think for so many you know,therapists, we come into this
work because often we wereparentified as a child.
We took on the responsibility ofbeing, you know, looking after
(25:44):
the emotional needs of ourcaregivers.
It's really easy to then.
Kind of take that into workingwith clients as well, which
obviously places a sort of hugerisk for burning out, like
that's gonna come at a hugedetriment to ourselves.
(26:04):
So I think that having a, a spbringing in your own spiritual
kind of perspective.
Helps to actually kind of handback a lot of that
responsibility to the individualand actually what they're here
for in this lifetime.
And I don't know, I don't knowwhat their particular lesson for
(26:27):
this lifetime is and howpresumptuous of me to think,
Tatiana (26:33):
Yeah.
Dannielle (26:34):
you know, that I would know that.
So.
Tatiana (26:38):
Yeah.
Dannielle (26:38):
Yeah, I think that helps to to not take on
ownership for this.
And, you know, we are confrontedsometimes with really awful
situations and have felt thedistress and the unjust of
injustice of people's particularsort of circumstances and.
(27:02):
And I found it really helpful tokind of lean back into that idea
of a higher power, somethingbigger at play here.
Tatiana (27:13):
Yeah.
Dannielle (27:13):
otherwise I think there's a high chance that you
could kind of take on.
Well, I could have taken onthat, you know, responsibility
for trying to solve, you know,someone's situation for them.
Tatiana (27:27):
Uh, absolutely.
And you make such a wonderfulpoint on that because it's true.
Like, I think.
We, it's an occupational hazardwhere we feel like we need to,
you know, it's our job to makepeople better.
It's our job to, you know, givethem what they're looking for.
And it can be so hard to justsit back.
And I remember earlier in mycareer, sometimes the guidance
(27:48):
that I would receive was veryspecific about this.
It was, it's not your job.
To save people.
It's not your job to do theirwork for them.
But it's still, I thinksometimes we still struggle.
Dannielle (28:02):
Yeah.
Tatiana (28:02):
having, Yeah.
Dannielle (28:04):
We're still human at the end of the day.
Right.
But then we catch it and thenhand that back over and,
Tatiana (28:12):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And so, I mean, I know you and Ihave spoken about this in, in,
uh, previously about the fearthat I personally felt.
Dannielle (28:21):
Hmm.
Tatiana (28:22):
These two parts of me, right?
Like really owning my spiritualside and the fear of
repercussion around thatprofessionally.
Uh, I'm wondering whether youexperienced similar fears and
how you came to overcome them.
Dannielle (28:36):
Yeah, so.
I think there is this kind ofrooted history for me of seeing,
you know, some spiritualconcepts being quite aligned
with psychology in general.
Tatiana (28:54):
Mm-hmm.
Dannielle (28:55):
I have felt, I.
I kind of comfortable with thataspect.
But I have to say that, youknow, participating in your
group program, Tatiana, theconscious therapist, and you
know, you sharing the importanceof actually meeting, uh, and
(29:15):
being aware of the, the needs ofour clients, which also
cultural, but spiritual factorsin there as well.
I mean, just there was such agoldmine of kind of information
and evidence in there that youshared that that actually really
helped to be less fearful.
Tatiana (29:37):
Oh, how wonderful to hear that.
Yeah.
Dannielle (29:40):
you a little plug there.
Tatiana (29:42):
Ah, I always get uncomfortable when that happens,
but thank you.
Dannielle (29:48):
It's true.
Tatiana (29:49):
But It's true.
isn't it?
Like once we start seeing theevidence, how, how much evidence
there actually is it, it's,yeah.
It makes it so much easier tolet go of the fear, doesn't it?
Dannielle (29:58):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So thank you.
Tatiana (30:01):
Oh no, thank you.
And so what value do youpersonally think there are for
psychologists and therapists inparticular to embrace their
spiritual selves?
Or just at least be more alittle bit more curious about
their spirituality?
Dannielle (30:20):
I mean, the big thing for me, I think is being
protective around againstburnout.
I.
I mean, I do remember takinginto one of my personal breath
work sessions you know, when Iwas feeling particularly
overwhelmed by the suffering inthe world and, you know, the
things that our clients, dealwith and you know, kind of being
(30:46):
asked, you know, is there, youknow, an higher power that you
can kind of give this over to?
And you know, of course withbreath work, fascinating things
emerged and so it's, yeah, forme, I think that has been the
biggest, take away or importanceof bringing in spirituality
(31:07):
because I, I do believe thatwhat we are doing with people is
a spiritual practice.
Yeah, and I guess one of my youknow, there are many lifetimes I
guess to work on this stuff aswell.
So we can only do what we can doand clients will only, I guess,
do what they're call to andwilling enable and what this
(31:32):
lifetime actually presents forthem.
Tatiana (31:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
Now, you, you alluded to somelike, like incredible things
coming out of breath work.
Would you be comfortable toshare maybe like.
Like a mind blowing thing thathappened with like in this vein,
only if you're comfortable.
Dannielle (31:51):
Oh you mean out of all of the breath breathing
experiences?
Tatiana (31:55):
Some, maybe some one that stands out to you as, wow.
Like that was a really spiritualexperience.
Dannielle (32:02):
Yes.
So I guess the thing that kindof comes to mind when you talk
about this is the first timethat I.
Was again, breathing.
And and I felt this heat, uh,rising up my spine with, I
(32:25):
guess, again, the kind of energythat my doula slash breathwork
teacher had shared around thiskind of like sexual energy,
orgasmic energy and, beingconnected to just something so
much bigger and grander than,you know, this little body that
(32:46):
we have.
But and again, tying it back to,I guess seeing the, uh, going
back to another tool song.
So, I was watching the video ofmy favorite tool song, and at
the end of it, it had like, Iguess the idea is like kundalini
and that kind of serpent, youknow, going up the channels,
(33:11):
kind of coming out of the, thecrown and this.
It just represented, I guess,what I, it felt like that
experience had been and kind of,yeah.
Really fascinating to then seethis experience that you'd had
(33:33):
represented in this video clip,which then ties into the
centuries of you know.
Wisdom and philosophy around it.
Tatiana (33:45):
Yeah, Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I know thatbreath work can be such a
transformative experience andevery time it's different, isn't
it?
Like every time you do it, youget something different.
So Yeah, it's, yeah, it'sphenomenal.
Dannielle (34:01):
yeah, absolutely.
And I also think it's just sointeresting that the kind of
grandfathers of, you know.
Modern breath work.
So in the seventies we hadpsychiatrist in the Czech or
Czech.
His Slovakia back then he was apsychiatrist working with LSD.
(34:22):
And then we had, uh, a guy inAmerica who had spontaneous kind
of memories of his birth emergewhile he was in the bath.
Tatiana (34:34):
Oh.
Dannielle (34:35):
So at the same time, these two kind of very different
backgrounds, but exploring whathappens when we connect our
breath.
What are the experiences?
What, what can come about fromaccessing these states of
(34:55):
consciousness?
How can we use it for healingsort of purposes?
Tatiana (35:02):
Wow,
Dannielle (35:03):
Yeah.
Happened at the same timeacross.
Tatiana (35:05):
that's really interesting, isn't it?
Dannielle (35:07):
Uh, very interesting to me.
Tatiana (35:11):
I've read somewhere, I can't recall now where, where I
read this, but apparently when,uh, an idea or a perspective or,
or a, a resource is meant to bemanifested into, into earth,
multiple people are going tohave this insight
Dannielle (35:30):
Wow.
Tatiana (35:31):
and they, so that they can like to fast track it.
Propagation across the theglobe, right?
So different parts of the planetare going to have these
insights, and then it starts to,and you know what's, I don't
know if you've seen, have youseen the movie on Netflix on the
birth of IVF?
Dannielle (35:49):
Oh no.
Oh, yes,
Tatiana (35:51):
Oh, you should watch it.
It's a fantastic, I think it'scalled Joy.
It's beautiful.
Oh, it's just a mind blowingthing, but, so, but it tracks
the, the researchers in the UKwhen they, they basically
originated the first, the firstbaby.
But when I was looking intodoing, like, I did some research
into that, apparently at thesame time in India, I think it
(36:11):
was India.
Oh, my mind's not reliable thesedays, but I'm pretty sure it was
in India.
There was another researcheralso developing an IVF protocol.
Dannielle (36:21):
Wow.
Tatiana (36:22):
Isn't that fascinating?
Dannielle (36:23):
Yeah, and actually as you're talking, I'm pretty sure
don't they talk about that inthe celestine prophecy of that
like critical mass thing?
Tatiana (36:31):
Yes, maybe that's where I read it.
It was so long ago, but I'mpretty sure I read it somewhere
else as well more recently.
But apparently, but apparentlythat does happen.
So Yeah.
it's interesting how these,these examples.
Dannielle (36:49):
Yeah.
Tatiana (36:50):
Oh, how fabulous.
And, and so I guess from yourperspective on like maybe a
final reflection, if you had topick one transformative aspect
of embracing spirituality morefully, both on that personal and
professional level, what aspectwould that be for you?
Dannielle (37:08):
So I, I think the idea that life happens for you
not to you.
Tatiana (37:14):
Yes.
Dannielle (37:15):
Because it touches into, uh, a couple of different
ideas for me.
Mm-hmm.
One is the concept of kind oflike non-duality.
That there is not, like, thereis no good or bad, you know,
like all of our experiencesaren't good or bad, although
it's very easy.
(37:36):
Our mind does kind of do that,but.
Tatiana (37:38):
Like all these things.
Dannielle (37:39):
Yeah.
It's actually all the same.
And think for me, that helps tocome out of a really, uh, a
state of disempowerment.
one of empowerment.
We go from being a victim toactually being in charge of our
(38:00):
lives.
No matter what the circumstancesactually might be, we will
always kind of have a choiceabout how we respond to that.
Tatiana (38:13):
Yes.
Dannielle (38:13):
And so like how aligned is that with psychology
and kind of spiritual concepts?
Tatiana (38:20):
absolutely.
I mean, Frankl himself spokeabout this, right?
That our power lies in choosingthe meaning we give to the
experiences we have.
Yeah.
And it's so true.
It's very empowering to, to beable to, to tap into that truth.
Dannielle (38:34):
Mm.
Yeah.
And I really feel that in mylife at the moment of how these,
like decision points can bewhere we can choose.
To see it in the negative or wecan choose to, you know, em,
embrace it as something that'senhancing our lives rather than
(38:57):
impacting negatively on us.
Tatiana (39:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, this has been such anamazing conversation.
Thank you so much.
Dannielle (39:06):
I've really enjoyed it.
Tatiana (39:08):
But do on.
Segment as you know, where Iget, I guess, to recommend a
transformative spiritual book.
That would be helpful to ourlisteners who want to begin that
journey or want to tap intotheir curiosity about exploring
these things a little bit more.
What would be thatrecommendation for you?
(39:28):
It's gonna be more than one.
I've
Dannielle (39:30):
Okay, great.
Thank goodness, because I havebeen pondering this question a
lot.
I really enjoyed Stanners Law ofGRS book, the Stormy Search for
Self, which talks about, Iguess, uh, spiritual emergency
(39:50):
as,
Tatiana (39:51):
Hmm
Dannielle (39:51):
I guess that kind of idea of, what might look like
mental illness can often beactually our spiritual
breakthrough.
So I really enjoyed that book.
Another book that just kind ofkeeps coming to mind is by a
Benedictine, I think I've gotthat Benedictine.
Anyway, a monk, called FallingForward, and it's, his name's
(40:15):
Richard Raw.
So it kind of talks about youknow, how those moments where we
fall down are our moments ofkind of transformation.
Tatiana (40:24):
Yes.
Oh, how beautiful.
Love that.
Dannielle (40:28):
But thanks for not limiting me to one.
Tatiana (40:30):
No, no.
And I'll add like the links tothe show notes on, for both
those books.
And why don't you share a littlebit about also what you've been
doing and where people can findyou.
Dannielle (40:41):
Yeah.
So, people can, probably thebest place to find me would be
on the socials that affectivepsychology and breath.
Tatiana (40:51):
Oh, beautiful.
Well put thanks on the shownotes for you for there as well.
But again, thank you so muchDanielle for, for joining me
today for sharing all yourwisdom and experiences and your
vulnerability.
I really, really appreciatethat.
Dannielle (41:03):
Yeah.
Thank you so much Tatiana.
I really love what you're doingin the world.
Tatiana (41:07):
Oh, thank you and thank you so much for listening, and
we'll see you all next time.
Dannielle (41:12):
Thank you.
Tatiana (41:13):
Bye.
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