July 17, 2024 • 50 mins
In this month’s instalment of ‘Soulful Chats’ I am joined by my colleague, Psychologist Poh Gan.
In this heartwarming discussion, Poh describes the transformative power that Spirituality, through the study of Buddhism, has had on her life - including how her Spirituality ultimately led her to become a Psychologist.
You can find Poh on https://blossomingtrueself.com.au
Poh’s Book Recommendation: ‘Our Pristine Mind’ by Orygen Chowang
Poh has a Four-week Bodhi Meditation Circle for Therapists starting in August:
https://www.instagram.com/p/C9Wv3hnNTGG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Some of Poh’s other popular offerings can be found below:
Free Daily Self-Care Ritual Planner for Busy Therapists here: https://blossomingtrueself.com.au/ritual-planner
Free Mini Guide to Declutter Your Mind and Find Inner Peace:
https://blossomingtrueself.com.au/free-download-for-mini-guide-
Poh on Instagram @the.blossoming.therapists https://www.instagram.com/the.blossoming.therapists/
Poh on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100092032200574
Poh has a Free Webinar – Overcome Burnout: Proven Energy Management Strategies for Therapists coming soon on the 21st August 2024 (Wednesday) at 11 am (AWST). Follow Poh on Instagram/ Facebook to get the final details!
Be sure to SHARE this episode to anyone you feel may be interested or benefit from this content.
And please don't forget to hit SUBSCRIBE to keep up to date with our episodes and give us a RATING below. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
You can now send me your comments or questions, to hello@integratedwisdom.com.au or you can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/integrated_wisdom/
Intro and Outro music: Inspiring Morning by Playsound
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tatiana (00:00):
Welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast.
I am your host, Tatyana DaSilva.
Join me as we discuss what itmeans to live an integrated life
and explore ways for you tocreate a life filled with
greater meaning, peace, andconnection by integrating the
wisdom of spirituality,psychology, Neuroscience,
(00:26):
Epigenetics and EnergyPsychology are hoped to empower
you to create deeper and moreloving connections with yourself
and others, whilst also pavingthe way for humanity at large to
be reimagined and inspired tobecome the very best version of
itself.
(00:49):
Welcome to the IntegrativeWisdom Podcast.
Thank you so much for joining mefor yet another week.
Today I have another one of myfavorite monthly installments,
uh, the soulful chats with someother peers and spiritually
minded psychologists.
And I am very excited today tobe welcoming my, Dear friend and
(01:12):
colleague Poh.
Poh is an experiencededucational and developmental
psychologist and a boardapproved supervisor practicing
in Perth, Western Australia.
With over 16 years of experiencein both the public and private
sector, she has workedextensively with children,
teenagers and adults facingvarious developmental and mental
health challenges.
(01:33):
She specializes in supportingneurodivergent individuals and
their families using a systemicand affirming approach to help
thrive and grow.
Po practices contextualbehavioral science, primarily
using acceptance and commitmenttherapy and compassion focused
therapy in her clinical work.
Parallel to these, Po is aseasoned Mahayana Buddhist
(01:54):
practitioner of humanity vehicleBuddhism with 20 years of
meditation practice andvolunteer work at a local
temple.
In the past two years, she hasembraced integrating
spirituality into herprofessional practice, combining
contextual behavioral science,neuroscience, and spiritual
wisdom in her coaching work.
As the founder of the BlossomingTherapists, Po's life mission
(02:16):
and purpose are to support heartled therapists and health
professionals in breaking freefrom cycles of burnout and
overwhelm.
She helps them reconnect withtheir true selves and purpose,
embody Bodhisattva's spirits andpractices so that they can
cultivate a balanced andfulfilling life while serving
and supporting others withgreater ease and energy.
(02:38):
Just from that bio alone, youcan see why she's the perfect
person to have on this podcast.
So happy to have you here, Po.
Poh (02:45):
Thank you, Tatjana.
I was so, heartwarming to, like,hear you talking about my bio.
Reading it out loud makes itall, like, real.
Yeah.
Tatiana (02:57):
And, you know, obviously that's one thing
that's drawn us together aswe've been on this journey of
trying to embody our missionsand build businesses that feel
aligned with what we feel ourpurpose is.
And we both have this drive tointegrate spirituality more
fully into our work, into ourpractice, into guiding people to
navigate life more easily.
(03:18):
I was so excited to have thisconversation with you and I'm
sure our listeners are going tolove hearing everything that you
have to say.
Poh (03:24):
Yes.
I'm very excited to be here aswell.
Thank you for inviting me.
Tatiana (03:29):
Nice.
My pleasure.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit more about yourself?
Poh (03:33):
Yes.
I guess like I'm in the processof incorporating the different
parts of me in the spiritualityand also my experience in
psychology to, to help othertherapists to overcome the
burnout and to embody morespirituality and practices to
(03:54):
help them to thrive insupporting other people so that
they don't feel burned out sothat they can continue
supporting other people.
And I can see there's greatbenefits in incorporating both
sides.
The ideas and practices andoutside of work, I am a mother
of two children.
(04:15):
Yes.
So age eight and 11.
Yes.
Tatiana (04:20):
so that's keeping you busy too.
Poh (04:21):
Yes, it's definitely.
Parenting is another spiritualjourney in itself.
Tatiana (04:27):
Absolutely is.
Yeah, I think actually that'ssuch a great point.
We could have a wholeconversation about this.
Couldn't we?
I think when I had Tricia, who,you know, as well, Tricia Woods
she, she brought up her own.
Her spiritual journey reallykind of became enhanced with
motherhood.
And so it's interesting to seeyou, you raised that same point.
(04:50):
Maybe we can have an episodewhere we have all of you guys,
all of you coming together andwe can talk about that
specifically.
going through the motherhoodjourney probably could could
benefit so much from, from thatlens.
Poh (05:01):
And in fact, My previous ideas actually started with like
working with other mothers andAsian mothers.
And, and I think like from, fromthere that evolve into wanting
to support other therapists, uh,who may be a mother as well.
And it's just the juggle of thedifferent roles and demands in
(05:21):
your life while still wanting topractice as a spiritual minded
person.
And, and I think with thejuggles of the different
challenges actually pushes us togo within and, you know, and
actually finding that peace andpracticing that spirituality
actually help us to navigate andlike handle those challenges
(05:42):
better.
And
Tatiana (05:46):
So I think that's a really nice segue into asking
you what first sparked yourinterest in spirituality?
Poh (05:54):
I actually thought about that.
And I realized that have a,after I had that deep think
about it, I actually he's a veryspiritual person from since
young And I think we, we talkabout that in the retreat when
we met each other face to facethat my mother was a fairly
(06:18):
spiritual person as well.
And she influenced me just beingexposed to different, like,
spiritual practices in inMalaysia.
I grew up in Malaysia, and And Iguess I was always curious about
like, you know, the life'smeanings and along with the
challenges in my childhood.
(06:39):
And I've always been likesearching if you know what I
mean.
And, and in year six, I couldremember like, you know, these
attending a Buddhist camp.
And, and I was just like, youknow, signing up to to, to, to
go with my friends.
But then that's where in one ofthe small group discussion, this
(07:00):
mentor she was guiding one of myfriends, talking about like, you
know, this friend has adifficult relationship with her
parents.
And she was like talking abouthow angry she was with her
parents.
And then this mentor did notjust say about, How you know,
(07:21):
she, she acknowledged that, butshe also said this you know, did
you notice that like, whenyou're talking about your
parents, how many I, how manysentences starts with I, and
then she talked about like theseI and ego and, but like, I, I
just like from there on, I wasjust a bit amazed about like,
(07:43):
questions and like, you know,philosophy and spirituality
from, from there and in highschool I continue to get
involved in Buddhist activitiesand, and learning, but more from
a theory perspective or likelearning as a philosophy and it
is not until After, when I cameover to Australia, where I met
(08:06):
my master that I practicing andlearning from her that that
really kind of like brought alot of the seeds in me perhaps
it's I guess affinity from thepast life.
If I.
Would be open to to talk aboutlike, you know, my beliefs in
spirituality.
Yeah.
Tatiana (08:28):
Oh, wow.
That's amazing.
Poh (08:30):
Yeah.
It is it feels like it, it's aconnection where like, that I
really resonate with theteachings and also like, wanting
to follow her footsteps to, tobring To bring about, uh,
greater liberation from, like,suffering that move me in my
(08:55):
heart, yeah.
Tatiana (08:57):
Yeah.
I, I, you know, I feel that sostrongly as well, Po, like I'm
often saying that guiding peopletowards connecting with their
spiritual essence is the mosttangible way we can guide them
towards transcending suffering,
Poh (09:12):
yeah, yeah, I
Tatiana (09:13):
And at the moment there's so much suffering
Poh (09:16):
yeah.
Yeah.
Tatiana (09:17):
Yeah.
Poh (09:17):
And, and I guess like with that sparks of when I was
younger and one of the mentorsthat I, I work with and he
suggested like, Oh, you're sointerested in like, you know,
human mind and like Buddhism,and maybe you'll be interested
to study psychology.
And that's where like, you know,him talking about that and like
(09:42):
and my interests and.
that actually drove me to studypsychology.
So I don't know which one comesfirst and I felt like, Oh,
actually maybe it was the, the,the spirituality that started
first that drove, drove me tostudy psychology and then and.
And they just can't beseparated.
Tatiana (10:04):
100 percent agree.
And what a beautifulillustration of that, right?
That it, the, the spiritual ledyou to, to study the
psychological aspects of people.
Yeah.
That's wonderful.
Poh (10:17):
Hmm.
Tatiana (10:18):
So let me ask you then, what spiritual concepts did you
first begin your explorationjourney with?
Poh (10:24):
Like, I, I feel like there, there are so many different
parts that like, you know, asBuddhism, as a philosophy of is
very different.
Yeah.
spiritual concepts that Iembrace and I honor that like
different people will havedifferent like spiritual
beliefs.
And and I guess like one of themost profound concepts that I
(10:45):
find is that everyone on earth,like, you know, Whether it is
human beings or spiritual beingsor animals or even like the
whole multiverse, if I were tobe geeky and really spiritual
about this that we have thisfundamental goodness or
(11:06):
spiritual essence or pure naturein us, in every one of us, that
they can be at peace andenlightened just like Buddha,
like in the spiritualtraditions.
It is because of the the ego andthe conditioning that they
cannot see their true nature andtrue potential.
(11:26):
But like these pristineawareness is already within each
and every one of us.
I think that really resonatewith me that like, Oh, if we can
quiet our thinking mind and toconnect with this pure essence
in us, that we can feel very atpeace and connected with
(11:49):
ourself.
And that's where in my coachingwork, I talk about the true self
and that true essence of who weare as.
A person that is calm andcompassionate and wise.
And in, and in another you know,way I can see other people
(12:09):
talking about the higher self orthe inner knowing.
And that is the most importantspiritual concepts that I think
that, is it
Tatiana (12:21):
Absolutely.
And again, it translates so wellinto the psychological, doesn't
it?
Like I know that you're an ACTpractitioner as am I, and I, you
know, when we talk about higherself and we talk about the
observer self, we're talkingabout the same
Poh (12:35):
Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and, and I think like, whenI learn about, uh, that in my
spiritual practices, and thenwhen I started to encounter ACT
and it's like, Oh, this is like,the same thing that they're
talking about and just have adifferent way of accessing to
(12:58):
it.
Yeah.
And, and I think I thinksometimes I realized that a lot
of some of the practitioners ortrainers, they might say that
like, Oh, these concepts comefrom the spiritual traditions,
but they don't really want it toacknowledge some of them.
I kind of like teach.
(13:18):
That part of the practice and,you know, just talking about the
scientific part, which kind oflike, I don't know, there's like
a break, breaking point thatthey don't really connect.
But if we were to practice bothsides, the science part, the
scientific part, and also thespiritual part, I feel like it
(13:42):
will actually have more profoundimpact.
Tatiana (13:46):
Oh, 100%.
I think the biggest loss topsychology, and we've spoken
about this, I think as well, isthat in the, in the hunger to be
taken seriously as a science, itdisconnected from its soul
essence, right?
Like that's the, the root wordwhat psychology means, study of
the soul,
Poh (14:04):
yes, yes, yes, yes,
Tatiana (14:07):
And we lost sight of that because we wanted to be
taken seriously as scientists.
But there's no separation,right?
I believe this.
And I'm sure you agree thatscience, when we discover new
things in the universe, innature, we're discovering the
spiritual truth of life, right?
Like.
Poh (14:25):
yeah,
Tatiana (14:26):
It's not either or.
Poh (14:27):
yeah.
And I, at the very beginning ofmy learning in psychology I find
that I have to be morescientific and like, you know,
some of the spiritual beliefsthat I learned in Buddhism
because it can't be proved inthe science experiments or like,
(14:48):
you know, in the randomizedcontrolled trials and, and that
it's not something that you cantell other people and you have
to kind of like, you know, keepit to yourself and like, you
know, don't, don't show it,don't, don't talk about it
because that's not, you know,evidence based and And I think
like one of the things like, youknow, talking about like, this
(15:09):
science and the spirituality oneof the things that I think in my
master years, I really wanted totalk about like mindfulness and
this is back in 2005 and 2006.
I really wanted to use that asmy thesis and research.
But I remember going to mysupervisor and wanting to search
(15:32):
for, uh, a supervisor that cansupervise me.
And I really wanted to talkabout that, but like back then
at my university the supervisoror lecturer said like, it's.
It is perhaps you should dosomething else, not this.
And so like it was at the time,perhaps in Perth it was not very
(15:56):
popular and it was only like,you know, I remember, you know,
according to all of thesearticles and the things that I
was searching for and I wantedto talk about that.
But it was kind of like met withrejection.
So like it was then like, youknow, one of the things that I
feel like, Oh, I need to hide, Ineed to hide, but to see act
(16:17):
and, you know, being, becomingmore popular and that I can have
a valid space to, to, topractice and, and, and use that
language and scientific languageto, to, to work with my clients,
I think.
Tatiana (16:32):
Yes.
Poh (16:33):
That has been uh, a blessing.
Yeah.
Tatiana (16:37):
Oh, wow.
Poh (16:38):
Yeah.
Tatiana (16:38):
But I think that's really interesting that you're
starting to talk about the, thefears around incorporating the,
the two, right, psychology andscience and how there is this
pressure from our community,particularly, I think mostly in
Australia, but there is thispressure that we should be very,
like, these two things should bevery separate.
So.
(16:59):
In acknowledging that you feltsome of that fear and you felt
some of that pressure, how didyou override it?
Because now we're here, we'rehaving conversations about this,
running a program very soonwhere you're incorporating the
spiritual element.
So obviously you've been workingon like overcoming that fear and
I'd love to hear how you did it.
Poh (17:22):
mm.
Tatiana (17:22):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
Poh (17:25):
I think, I think this is, uh, a really recent thing that I
decided to do both together.
And it's actually quitesurprising, you know, like, I
think two years ago last yearwhen I met working, when I
started working with my coachand Hayley and Emma and, and,
(17:49):
and doing this spiritual thisfuture self exercise, I think
that probably is one of thethings that like, you know, pull
me out of like, brought out thespiritual side of me.
So I sign up for these like, youknow, online program creation,
uh, for therapist incubatorprogram.
(18:09):
And I thought that I was goingto.
Deliver a program aboutneurodiversity affirming
practices and supportingchildren and or like parents
with emotion regulation.
But when I did that future self,uh, meditation exercises, this
(18:29):
part of me just came out sostrongly about a spiritual
person.
And I think like the, the seeds.
inside me and that drive insideme were always there and it's
just kind of like brought intoconsciousness and that, and in,
(18:50):
in that, in that meditationpractice My future self saying
that like, you know, what youneed, it's already within you,
you have what it takes.
And, and, and when I alignmyself to that future self of
wanting to be a bodhisattva tobe so these bodhisattva that I'm
(19:13):
talking about is this apractitioner that have been
practicing within themselves tosee that spiritual essence
themself and and wanting to todo the same thing to supporting
other people to see their trueessence and that true nature and
that part of me just wanting tobe wanting this fearful mind,
(19:40):
this thinking mind that I'vebeen hiding and hiding to say
that like, you know, it's okay,you know, you, you need to step
up so that like you are able toreach more people and to, to
connect with people.
their spiritual self, and thatwill transcend a lot of the
(20:02):
suffering.
And I see myself, and, andbefore I wanted to do all of
that, I was really quite trappedin my thinking mind, even though
I've been practicing.
But because they are sodifferent, it's kind of like
parallel line and it felt likeit can't be quite integrated.
(20:23):
And I think at the time I wasalso quite burnt out as well.
And I stopped practicing myspiritual practices and
meditation because I was likereally just busy trying to to do
a lot of things that I think isimportant and, but it doesn't
really it doesn't really.
Resonate with what I wanted tobe as a person But I wanted to
(20:49):
have more and I wanted to see agreater contribution that goes
beyond this lifetime.
And, and I think.
And maybe that's the main driverwhy I am so fearlessly,
fearlessly you know, wanting tospeak about this, wanting to
(21:09):
talk about this and wanting tobring about this to share with
other people.
And I think that passion drivesme to break through those fears.
and wanting to hide.
And there are times when I stillwanted to hide.
But I was just keep connectingto, to, to that essence and
(21:29):
connecting to that future self.
And it brings me like back toYes, I do this because of my
mission.
I do this because I can see abigger picture of Humankind and
that's what I wanted to do.
Tatiana (21:48):
Yes.
Connecting with your essence andthe truth of your life purpose
has given you that courage.
Poh (21:54):
Yes, yes, yes, yeah,
Tatiana (21:58):
It's so beautiful because then you can embody that
for others too, right?
You can role model that.
Yeah.
Poh (22:06):
going through that journey actually makes, makes me realize
that like, I'm not the only onethat felt Like that.
And, and, and perhaps a lot ofthe other therapists have always
felt like they need to high or,or perhaps they're pursuing
something that they think isimportant, but perhaps if they
(22:27):
really quiet down and, andconnecting with themselves, and
perhaps they might see the need.
Differently, and maybe that,that will help them to drive,
uh, them to do something and,and get them out of that cycle
of burnout.
Just like how I did with myself.
(22:48):
Yeah.
Tatiana (22:50):
And I, I mean, I'm not, I'd love to hear your thoughts
on this Poh because I've, a fewother people who I've had on the
podcast and we've spoken about.
Burnout and sustainable living.
One of the thing that keepscoming up is this idea that one
of the contributors to burnoutis that we're not living
authentically,
Poh (23:08):
Mm
Tatiana (23:09):
right?
And so in having to hide thisvery core aspect of who we are,
our spiritual essence in ourwork actually makes the work
much more draining than it wouldbe otherwise, if we could
incorporate it all.
What do you feel?
What are your thoughts on that?
Does that resonate for you too?
Poh (23:25):
Yes.
Definitely.
And, and I think, and Idefinitely see myself being more
authentic and like talking alittle bit more about and
wanting to like bring some ofthe discussion because I think
I'm okay with it and I then havemore of these inviting.
(23:48):
presence for them to talk about.
And somehow strangely andperhaps a synchronicity that
like I started like even myassisting clients wanting to
talk about spirituality and likethey are on purpose and, and,
And I could recall one of theseclients that I've been
(24:09):
supporting for some time, butbecause of my own journey that
he started talking about thatand about like, you know, his
personal purpose and vision and,and what he wanted to do.
And, and by me being able tohold that space for him, and he
came to his own conclusion abouthis own purpose.
(24:30):
And he, He was quite brave and,you know, embracing that.
And, and making steps and evenmove like interstate to like
pursue his dream and, and meembodying that presence and more
proudly embodying that presenceactually bring perhaps like, you
(24:51):
know, that benefits actuallyit's felt and that felt sense
that presence in the therapy isactually benefiting both Me and
my clients.
Tatiana (25:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Isn't that amazing?
I mean, that's such a beautifulillustration as well of that
exchange that happens in atherapeutic relationship, right?
Like yes, we're helping them,but then sometimes we gain
things from those exchanges aswell.
Poh (25:17):
yeah.
Yeah.
And
Tatiana (25:19):
so beautiful.
Poh (25:19):
yeah, and I guess like, to, to come back to your questions
about, you know, like ask nothiding.
Tatiana (25:27):
Mm.
Poh (25:28):
I think that the, the discussion becomes richer
because because we have beendodging, uh, not talking about
it and we perhaps perhaps we canonly go like to this this far
when we are supporting them.
But like, you know, if you areable to embrace that full
(25:48):
spectrum of Spirituality or, youknow, being seen as who we are
as a whole person that actuallybrings them to be able to felt
our authenticity
Tatiana (26:04):
Yes.
Poh (26:06):
and, and that allows them to be who they are as well.
Tatiana (26:11):
100%.
Yeah.
Again, it's that role modeling,right?
Like paving the way for otherpeople.
Yeah.
It's beautiful.
So what are some of the benefitsthat you have found about
incorporating spirituality intoyour life On that personal
level?
Yes.
Poh (26:28):
I guess I've been more careful and, and I guess like,
by me practicing a little bitmore and connecting more to
these Open spaciousness, myobserving self and, and in, in
that part of me.
And, and I think like in thepast I've been quite, uh, high
(26:49):
achiever was quite aperfectionistic thinking and
perhaps, self identified ADHD,uh, uh, that is kind of like a,
my compensation strategies to bea neurodivergent that I think in
the past I've been working toohard to, to protect this part of
(27:12):
me.
And I think like it through thespiritual practices and the
meditation is actually allowingme to be more compassionate
towards myself.
And, and also to to, I don'tknow.
Like it felt like, you know,when I'm at this really core
sense of who I am some of theselimiting beliefs doesn't really
(27:37):
bother me as much.
And I was able to kind of like,I'd recognize them.
But I don't let them makedecisions for me and they kind
of can kind of like drop veryquickly.
I can drop them very quickly,more so compared to the past
when I'm anchored in thispristine awareness.
(28:02):
So I, I feel that like, youknow, it, it has.
Allowed me to feel more restfuland, and less drained by the
thinking mind that I have beenoperating in the past but more
so like really grounded andpresent here.
(28:22):
And I think like, that's where alot of the energy drives me now
come from here and not in the,the past.
The small mind of likecompensation, like, Oh, I need
to do more.
I need to do more because I'mnot good enough and flipping
that to a more grounded sense ofwho I am as a person
Tatiana (28:45):
Yes.
Poh (28:46):
and that
Tatiana (28:46):
More heart.
Poh (28:47):
helps me to, to do more things.
Tatiana (28:51):
Yes.
Poh (28:51):
not in a burnout way, not in a like, you know, I need to
prove myself and, but I'malready whole to begin with.
So I think that not just intheory understanding, but more
in the practical sense ofembodiment sense that felt sense
of who I am that really yeah, Ithink like it's a paradigm shift
(29:15):
for, is a, a flip of lens.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Tatiana (29:21):
I just want to emphasize what you just said
then, because that was sobeautiful.
This concept of moving fromfeeling like you're not good
enough and that you need toprove yourself to having this
certainty, no, you are enough,right?
You're already whole or thewords that you use, I'm already
whole.
And that, that's so true in ouressence, in our soul essence,
(29:42):
we're whole.
And I think that's, you've, youspoke about that really, really
well.
Poh (29:47):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah.
And I think like when I'm inthat sense, that, that really
connected way and I really lovetalking about this and I really
want to talk about this.
I really wanted to share withother people and, and let them
have a bit of that joy and And,and that groundedness and, and,
(30:12):
and I think that really drivesme to wanting to like speak up
and use my voice.
Whereas before that I will belike, you know, Oh no, I can't
talk about this.
And that is more from thethinking that is limiting
myself.
Tatiana (30:27):
Yeah.
Wow.
That's so powerful on a personallevel.
What about professionally?
How do you feel that integratingthat spirituality component has
enhanced your professional orpsychological practice?
Poh (30:41):
I guess like, this embodied presence of who I am as a person
and, and feel that groundednesswithin myself and showing up as
this seems to be more of itbrings a different energy in
the, in the room.
And,
Tatiana (31:00):
Mm
Poh (31:01):
and, and I feel that like I can truly listen.
I can truly be fully present and
Tatiana (31:09):
hmm.
Poh (31:10):
with my, uh, clients and.
And I think they, they wouldfeel that as well.
And, and brewing, I think likethat being fully present in this
pristine awareness.
And I think like there isanother part of like the, the
spiritual concepts that that,uh, that I think it's quite.
(31:35):
Empowering is that the person infront of me shares that
wholeness and, and, and doesshare humanity that like this
person in front of me and me,and are troubled by the same
thing, like troubled by the samelimiting beliefs uh, all the
(31:55):
conditioning that they areunder.
And.
And it, I think it brings thatreally full essence of
compassion and empathy
Tatiana (32:08):
Mm
Poh (32:08):
to be in the room, holding these persons in mind in a
really holistic and like full,uh, way that, that allows that
person to heal and, and for themto connect with their essence.
That's all.
Yeah.
They are pristine awareness.
Actually they do the workthemself and they heal that part
(32:34):
of the the wounds themselfrather than me being the person
that change.
But I, I, I'm just creating thatspace for them to do that work
to see for their self energy ortheir true nature to shine
through.
So I think.
That in itself creates a reallyempowering sense for the clients
Tatiana (33:01):
Yes,
Poh (33:01):
find out on power.
It was not me, but I'm only likean agent to support them, to
connect with that part ofthemself.
I don't know.
It doesn't make sense.
Tatiana (33:13):
no, it makes sense.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Poh (33:16):
Yeah.
Tatiana (33:17):
It is, it's, it's helping them also connect with
that essence, right.
And yeah, and be led from thatplace, which is what allows them
to then navigate life with moreease.
And like you said, connect withthat shared humanity for other
people, because that's the humanexperience, right?
Like we all go throughdifferent, similar things in our
own ways.
(33:38):
The S, the things are the same.
And we can lose sight of thatsometimes and feel really lonely
in our suffering or in our pain.
Poh (33:44):
Mm.
Mm.
Tatiana (33:46):
and I, that's, that's very true.
Poh (33:48):
Yeah.
So I think I, I, I'm operatingless of a, like the expert
model, but more so with thatshare humanity and,
Tatiana (33:59):
Yes.
Poh (34:00):
And And, and to trust that they have that, uh, in the
resources within themselves to,to make changes and to, to, to
relate differently to theirpain, their suffering.
I think I like to think thatlike my clients feel that
presence and, and, and that theimpact is, is, is there and
(34:26):
like,
Tatiana (34:27):
I have no doubt that's the case because your genuine
nature comes through so clearly,
Poh (34:32):
Oh, thank, mm,
Tatiana (34:34):
You know, and people connect with that.
I think that itself is veryhealing.
Poh (34:38):
mm,
Tatiana (34:39):
So, yeah, I have no doubt.
Poh (34:41):
thank you.
Mm
Tatiana (34:43):
So on that, what value or benefit do you see for
psychologists and therapists inparticular to embrace their
spiritual selves or at least bea little bit more curious about
spirituality?
Yeah.
Poh (34:56):
I think like what we have talked about before that by.
Embodying that our own like truespiritual essence and the
discussion and the space that wehold for our clients will be a
stronger presence and will be,will be allowing for like
(35:21):
greater healing that happen inthe client and also the
therapeutic alliance that wehave with the clients will be
stronger.
And I think there are actually alot of the, a lot of the things
that are not yet being proven inthe scientific study.
(35:41):
And, and I guess like if.
We are more open to thediscussion.
The clients are, uh, perhaps theclients might feel the same way.
You know, like if we, uh, find aneed to hide and not talk about
it imagine what our clientsmight be feeling that, oh, this
is not something that we cantalk with therapists.
(36:03):
Maybe that's what they'rethinking.
But if the clients are.
If we are open and curious, thenthey, they may feel like they
have this permission to talkabout how they're connected with
greater beings or like theuniverse or their spiritual
(36:24):
beliefs as well.
And I see that like when theyare connected to their
spirituality and sometimes ithelps them to get through the
challenges in their life.
And with greater strength andwith greater connection and this
this commitment and thisdevotion in themselves that they
(36:45):
can get through things.
Yeah, I think by us practicingmore and being more aligned to
our, uh, spiritual self we're nolonger operating on that
conditioned thinking mindperhaps when we are no longer
being limited by our thinkingmind that's where like, there's
(37:08):
more potential that could betapped into that we might not
yet able to prove.
In the scientific study
Tatiana (37:19):
not yet, but soon.
Mm,
Poh (37:24):
but not yet.
But it doesn't mean that it'snot there.
And, and I think and we cansense it, we can feel it
Tatiana (37:32):
mm,
Poh (37:33):
And, and, and it allows us to be more intuitive.
I have such trust in myself.
like if I were to compare myselfto when I first practiced as a
psychologist and versus where Iam now.
I think I have to prepare, youknow, script by script, words by
(37:55):
words, like, you know, what arethe right thing to say But
whereas now I kind of like beingin that that space where I'm
really anchored and like some ofthose things just come through
and it just flows and I justknow the right thing to say and,
and the right actions to takeand, and that embodied sense.
(38:20):
Actually, I think inneuroscience, it says that like,
you know, when you are feelingthese and groundedness and our
presence can actually impact andco regulating with our clients.
And they, they feel anchored,they feel grounded as well in
that space.
Tatiana (38:40):
Yes,
Poh (38:41):
know, I feel that like that, that is something that is
perhaps less able to bedemonstrated in the, evidence
based study.
Tatiana (38:52):
Yes.
Poh (38:53):
but we feel it we feel the energy and, and often like a
client walks away feelingdifferent, not because of the
words that we say, but thepresence that we embody in, in
the sessions.
Tatiana (39:09):
Absolutely.
Poh (39:10):
Yeah.
Tatiana (39:11):
Yeah.
It's that intangible, right?
Which it is, it's what makes itso hard to measure.
Yeah, but maybe, I think therewill come a day when they'll be
able to measure it, but in theright way.
I think at the moment there'slimitations to the way that we
approach these things, whichmakes it feel like it's
impossible to, Asia, but it'sjust approaching it from the
wrong place and in the, with thewrong tools.
(39:34):
Think that's going to changewith time, but that's, yeah,
that's so beautiful.
Again, it's, it just highlightsthat the power of the
therapeutic relationship and howthis spiritual concept or that
presence as you're talking aboutit it just maximizes the healing
potential
Poh (39:51):
Yeah.
I like the way that you put it.
Yes.
I like it.
It's, it's like enhancing it.
Tatiana (39:56):
This.
Poh (39:57):
yeah.
And the techniques that you useis powerfully presented because
you are fully present with theperson.
Person in front of you?
Mm
Tatiana (40:07):
absolutely.
Who was it that said, was itCarl Jung that said, learn all
the, all the theories, learn allthe techniques, but when you're
in the room with another humanbeing, just be a human being.
I'm botching the quote, but itwas something along those lines.
Poh (40:24):
I understand exactly what you mean.
Yes.
Tatiana (40:28):
It's, yeah, it's, that's the essence of what
that's talking about, isn't it?
What's, I guess we're in a finalreflection.
Then if you had to pick onetransformative aspect of
embracing spirituality morefully.
Both on that personal and aprofessional level, what aspect
would that be for you of all thethings we've spoken about?
What do you think is that onereally gold nugget of
Poh (40:52):
Uhhuh.
Tatiana (40:53):
potential?
Poh (40:55):
I guess it will have to come back to, you know, that
what my future self said to me,you know, like what you have is.
what you need is already withinyou.
I think we often, you know, orperhaps the society in some way
has kind of conditioned us tokind of like pursue outwardly
(41:17):
and thinking that maybe we needto like, you know, just learn
the next techniques and the nexttherapeutic uh, strategies.
But I, I feel like we have somuch in here that we
Tatiana (41:32):
Yes.
Poh (41:33):
have not spent enough time to cultivate and explore within
us and what that could be and,and how by us going in within
and find that stillness andstability and that who we are as
in essence By doing that,perhaps the whole transformation
(41:57):
of finding who we are as aperson and bringing that out and
the whole outlook andperspective and the way that you
approach therapy or like in thepersonal level and how you
interact with other people andrelationships and how your
(42:17):
parent and all of that, that,that The need for control, might
drop, and the need to impressmight drop, the need to please
might drop, and you just feelwhole within you.
And I think that's the, that'ssomething that that's something
that you, you can't get in thematerial sense.
(42:42):
And no matter how, how much youget from the material, physical
world, that is not somethingthat you can get from here.
I think that certainty and that,is that called conviction or
like, you know, that, that'sThat knowing that knowing
brings, brings so much abundanceand bring so much ease and, and,
(43:05):
and peace.
And that is not something thatother people can get, give you,
but you can have it in withinyou.
And with that strong core andyou can go about and like deal
with any challenges in yourlife.
And, and you'll be able to getthrough, and you will be able to
(43:29):
go about doing whatever missionand purpose that you are here to
do, but in a very strongfearless, uh, way.
Yeah, so I think that is themost important thing.
Tatiana (43:44):
Yes, I beautifully said, and so I have this little
ritual where I always get myguests to recommend a
transformational spiritual book.
That obviously.
Those who are curious to explorespirituality a little bit more
(44:08):
or are looking for a place tobegin, they can start with that.
So from your own experiences,what would be a book that you
feel would be, uh, reallyimpactful
Poh (44:20):
Yeah, so I have two books and I think one of them is the
The book from the HumanityVehicle Buddhism about teacup is
not a teacup But I think thebook is not widely available to
to Like, it's not something thatyou can purchase on Amazon but
(44:44):
it's free for distribution inthe temple, but, and I guess
like for your audience, it mightnot be, uh, widely available.
But this book about our pristinemind and a practical guide to
unconditional happiness by OrganChowan
Tatiana (45:03):
Mm
Poh (45:04):
it brings about that essence of who we are as a
person and to talk about thedifferent levels of the the mind
and consciousness.
I think that is a great place tostart cultivating
Tatiana (45:19):
Oh, beautiful.
Uh huh.
I'll include this a link to thatbook in the show notes for
anyone who's interested ingrabbing a copy.
My, my library of books to readjust keeps expanding.
Poh (45:33):
Yes.
Tatiana (45:33):
going on my library as well.
That's going on my list.
Poh (45:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We all buy too many books,Isabel, and I just need that
time to actually read, to find
Tatiana (45:45):
I sometimes dream about retirement just so I can have
the time to read my books.
Poh (45:50):
Yes.
Tatiana (45:51):
But there's way too much work to be done first.
But, you know, it was so lovelyto have you here today, Poh.
I've really enjoyed ourconversations.
I love your unique perspectiveon spirituality and your journey
with it.
And how you've beenincorporating it into your
practice so beautifully.
I know that you have uh, aprogram coming up and a
meditation circle coming up.
(46:12):
So why don't you tell ourlisteners a little bit about
that for anyone who's interestedin doing some work with you?
Poh (46:17):
Yeah.
So in mid July, I'll be startinga four week Bodhi meditation
circle for therapists interestedin Buddhism and wanting to
deepen their practices andunderstanding about pristine
awareness and, and Buddha natureand also like practically just
practicing We are too busy inour practices and in our day to
(46:39):
day life that we find it hard tofind time.
So by bringing a group oftherapists together, we can
discuss about our insight andour understanding in our
cultivation and also how wepractice in our therapy and
practicing.
The spiritual practices togetherthe meditation.
(47:00):
And so coming up in July, end ofJuly or mid August, I will be
organizing a free webinar abouthow, uh, therapists can manage
the energy effectively Byincorporating not just physical
energy, emotional energy andmental energy, but also
(47:23):
spiritual energy and so that wecan kind of top up and
connecting to, uh, what we'vebeen talking about the, uh, the
essence of who we are
Tatiana (47:34):
Yeah.
Poh (47:35):
In a way to be a sustainable, uh, therapist, work
life balance and, and that, and,and hopefully in, in mid August,
I'll be launching my eight weeksprogram for therapist.
Yeah.
Tatiana (47:52):
fantastic.
So I'll add to the show notes,links to your meditation circle
to your upcoming webinar as wellon your website.
So people can look it up andlearn a little bit more about
what you're doing and sign up ifthey're interested.
But again, Paul, I just wantedto say thank you so much for
agreeing to have thisconversation with me.
(48:13):
It's been, it's been lovely.
I've enjoyed every second.
Uh, and if you have any finalthoughts.
Poh (48:20):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for invitingme Tatiana, you've been really,
really generous and, and I thinklike seeing you finding your
voice and, and talking aboutyour spiritual journey, actually
really, I wanted to say how muchthis platform and how you show
up actually really inspired me.
(48:43):
to show up the way I am as well.
So I just wanted to share thatwith you, that deep gratitude I
have for you having thisplatform to talk about
spirituality and for therapists.
And thank you.
Tatiana (48:57):
No, thank you.
I appreciate you and appreciatethose kind words.
Thank you.
I think we're all learning fromeach other, right?
Like it, it helps to have moreand more people coming together
that are walking the same pathand supporting each other to do
so.
So yeah, I'm very grateful to bemeeting more and more spiritual
psychs like you.
Poh (49:16):
Thank you.
Tatiana (49:17):
so I guess that's it for today.
Thank you so much for those ofyou who listened, To this
episode, it's a long one today.
And I'm sure you've been, you'llget so much value from what
we've been talking through and Ihope you all have a lovely week
and I will see you all nexttime.
Poh (49:35):
Thank you.
Bye.
Tatiana (49:37):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Integrated
Wisdom.
It is my sincere wish thattoday's episode may have
intrigued and inspired you toreclaim your power and step into
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(50:01):
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underscore wisdom.
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(50:24):
inspired.
So for now, stay connected, stayinspired and keep shining your
light into the world.
Welcome to the Integrated Wisdom Podcast.
I am your host, Tatyana DaSilva.
Join me as we discuss what itmeans to live an integrated life
and explore ways for you tocreate a life filled with
greater meaning, peace, andconnection by integrating the
wisdom of spirituality,psychology, Neuroscience,
(00:26):
Epigenetics and EnergyPsychology are hoped to empower
you to create deeper and moreloving connections with yourself
and others, whilst also pavingthe way for humanity at large to
be reimagined and inspired tobecome the very best version of
itself.
(00:49):
Welcome to the IntegrativeWisdom Podcast.
Thank you so much for joining mefor yet another week.
Today I have another one of myfavorite monthly installments,
uh, the soulful chats with someother peers and spiritually
minded psychologists.
And I am very excited today tobe welcoming my, Dear friend and
(01:12):
colleague Poh.
Poh is an experiencededucational and developmental
psychologist and a boardapproved supervisor practicing
in Perth, Western Australia.
With over 16 years of experiencein both the public and private
sector, she has workedextensively with children,
teenagers and adults facingvarious developmental and mental
health challenges.
(01:33):
She specializes in supportingneurodivergent individuals and
their families using a systemicand affirming approach to help
thrive and grow.
Po practices contextualbehavioral science, primarily
using acceptance and commitmenttherapy and compassion focused
therapy in her clinical work.
Parallel to these, Po is aseasoned Mahayana Buddhist
(01:54):
practitioner of humanity vehicleBuddhism with 20 years of
meditation practice andvolunteer work at a local
temple.
In the past two years, she hasembraced integrating
spirituality into herprofessional practice, combining
contextual behavioral science,neuroscience, and spiritual
wisdom in her coaching work.
As the founder of the BlossomingTherapists, Po's life mission
(02:16):
and purpose are to support heartled therapists and health
professionals in breaking freefrom cycles of burnout and
overwhelm.
She helps them reconnect withtheir true selves and purpose,
embody Bodhisattva's spirits andpractices so that they can
cultivate a balanced andfulfilling life while serving
and supporting others withgreater ease and energy.
(02:38):
Just from that bio alone, youcan see why she's the perfect
person to have on this podcast.
So happy to have you here, Po.
Poh (02:45):
Thank you, Tatjana.
I was so, heartwarming to, like,hear you talking about my bio.
Reading it out loud makes itall, like, real.
Yeah.
Tatiana (02:57):
And, you know, obviously that's one thing
that's drawn us together aswe've been on this journey of
trying to embody our missionsand build businesses that feel
aligned with what we feel ourpurpose is.
And we both have this drive tointegrate spirituality more
fully into our work, into ourpractice, into guiding people to
navigate life more easily.
(03:18):
I was so excited to have thisconversation with you and I'm
sure our listeners are going tolove hearing everything that you
have to say.
Poh (03:24):
Yes.
I'm very excited to be here aswell.
Thank you for inviting me.
Tatiana (03:29):
Nice.
My pleasure.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit more about yourself?
Poh (03:33):
Yes.
I guess like I'm in the processof incorporating the different
parts of me in the spiritualityand also my experience in
psychology to, to help othertherapists to overcome the
burnout and to embody morespirituality and practices to
(03:54):
help them to thrive insupporting other people so that
they don't feel burned out sothat they can continue
supporting other people.
And I can see there's greatbenefits in incorporating both
sides.
The ideas and practices andoutside of work, I am a mother
of two children.
(04:15):
Yes.
So age eight and 11.
Yes.
Tatiana (04:20):
so that's keeping you busy too.
Poh (04:21):
Yes, it's definitely.
Parenting is another spiritualjourney in itself.
Tatiana (04:27):
Absolutely is.
Yeah, I think actually that'ssuch a great point.
We could have a wholeconversation about this.
Couldn't we?
I think when I had Tricia, who,you know, as well, Tricia Woods
she, she brought up her own.
Her spiritual journey reallykind of became enhanced with
motherhood.
And so it's interesting to seeyou, you raised that same point.
(04:50):
Maybe we can have an episodewhere we have all of you guys,
all of you coming together andwe can talk about that
specifically.
going through the motherhoodjourney probably could could
benefit so much from, from thatlens.
Poh (05:01):
And in fact, My previous ideas actually started with like
working with other mothers andAsian mothers.
And, and I think like from, fromthere that evolve into wanting
to support other therapists, uh,who may be a mother as well.
And it's just the juggle of thedifferent roles and demands in
(05:21):
your life while still wanting topractice as a spiritual minded
person.
And, and I think with thejuggles of the different
challenges actually pushes us togo within and, you know, and
actually finding that peace andpracticing that spirituality
actually help us to navigate andlike handle those challenges
(05:42):
better.
And
Tatiana (05:46):
So I think that's a really nice segue into asking
you what first sparked yourinterest in spirituality?
Poh (05:54):
I actually thought about that.
And I realized that have a,after I had that deep think
about it, I actually he's a veryspiritual person from since
young And I think we, we talkabout that in the retreat when
we met each other face to facethat my mother was a fairly
(06:18):
spiritual person as well.
And she influenced me just beingexposed to different, like,
spiritual practices in inMalaysia.
I grew up in Malaysia, and And Iguess I was always curious about
like, you know, the life'smeanings and along with the
challenges in my childhood.
(06:39):
And I've always been likesearching if you know what I
mean.
And, and in year six, I couldremember like, you know, these
attending a Buddhist camp.
And, and I was just like, youknow, signing up to to, to, to
go with my friends.
But then that's where in one ofthe small group discussion, this
(07:00):
mentor she was guiding one of myfriends, talking about like, you
know, this friend has adifficult relationship with her
parents.
And she was like talking abouthow angry she was with her
parents.
And then this mentor did notjust say about, How you know,
(07:21):
she, she acknowledged that, butshe also said this you know, did
you notice that like, whenyou're talking about your
parents, how many I, how manysentences starts with I, and
then she talked about like theseI and ego and, but like, I, I
just like from there on, I wasjust a bit amazed about like,
(07:43):
questions and like, you know,philosophy and spirituality
from, from there and in highschool I continue to get
involved in Buddhist activitiesand, and learning, but more from
a theory perspective or likelearning as a philosophy and it
is not until After, when I cameover to Australia, where I met
(08:06):
my master that I practicing andlearning from her that that
really kind of like brought alot of the seeds in me perhaps
it's I guess affinity from thepast life.
If I.
Would be open to to talk aboutlike, you know, my beliefs in
spirituality.
Yeah.
Tatiana (08:28):
Oh, wow.
That's amazing.
Poh (08:30):
Yeah.
It is it feels like it, it's aconnection where like, that I
really resonate with theteachings and also like, wanting
to follow her footsteps to, tobring To bring about, uh,
greater liberation from, like,suffering that move me in my
(08:55):
heart, yeah.
Tatiana (08:57):
Yeah.
I, I, you know, I feel that sostrongly as well, Po, like I'm
often saying that guiding peopletowards connecting with their
spiritual essence is the mosttangible way we can guide them
towards transcending suffering,
Poh (09:12):
yeah, yeah, I
Tatiana (09:13):
And at the moment there's so much suffering
Poh (09:16):
yeah.
Yeah.
Tatiana (09:17):
Yeah.
Poh (09:17):
And, and I guess like with that sparks of when I was
younger and one of the mentorsthat I, I work with and he
suggested like, Oh, you're sointerested in like, you know,
human mind and like Buddhism,and maybe you'll be interested
to study psychology.
And that's where like, you know,him talking about that and like
(09:42):
and my interests and.
that actually drove me to studypsychology.
So I don't know which one comesfirst and I felt like, Oh,
actually maybe it was the, the,the spirituality that started
first that drove, drove me tostudy psychology and then and.
And they just can't beseparated.
Tatiana (10:04):
100 percent agree.
And what a beautifulillustration of that, right?
That it, the, the spiritual ledyou to, to study the
psychological aspects of people.
Yeah.
That's wonderful.
Poh (10:17):
Hmm.
Tatiana (10:18):
So let me ask you then, what spiritual concepts did you
first begin your explorationjourney with?
Poh (10:24):
Like, I, I feel like there, there are so many different
parts that like, you know, asBuddhism, as a philosophy of is
very different.
Yeah.
spiritual concepts that Iembrace and I honor that like
different people will havedifferent like spiritual
beliefs.
And and I guess like one of themost profound concepts that I
(10:45):
find is that everyone on earth,like, you know, Whether it is
human beings or spiritual beingsor animals or even like the
whole multiverse, if I were tobe geeky and really spiritual
about this that we have thisfundamental goodness or
(11:06):
spiritual essence or pure naturein us, in every one of us, that
they can be at peace andenlightened just like Buddha,
like in the spiritualtraditions.
It is because of the the ego andthe conditioning that they
cannot see their true nature andtrue potential.
(11:26):
But like these pristineawareness is already within each
and every one of us.
I think that really resonatewith me that like, Oh, if we can
quiet our thinking mind and toconnect with this pure essence
in us, that we can feel very atpeace and connected with
(11:49):
ourself.
And that's where in my coachingwork, I talk about the true self
and that true essence of who weare as.
A person that is calm andcompassionate and wise.
And in, and in another you know,way I can see other people
(12:09):
talking about the higher self orthe inner knowing.
And that is the most importantspiritual concepts that I think
that, is it
Tatiana (12:21):
Absolutely.
And again, it translates so wellinto the psychological, doesn't
it?
Like I know that you're an ACTpractitioner as am I, and I, you
know, when we talk about higherself and we talk about the
observer self, we're talkingabout the same
Poh (12:35):
Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and, and I think like, whenI learn about, uh, that in my
spiritual practices, and thenwhen I started to encounter ACT
and it's like, Oh, this is like,the same thing that they're
talking about and just have adifferent way of accessing to
(12:58):
it.
Yeah.
And, and I think I thinksometimes I realized that a lot
of some of the practitioners ortrainers, they might say that
like, Oh, these concepts comefrom the spiritual traditions,
but they don't really want it toacknowledge some of them.
I kind of like teach.
(13:18):
That part of the practice and,you know, just talking about the
scientific part, which kind oflike, I don't know, there's like
a break, breaking point thatthey don't really connect.
But if we were to practice bothsides, the science part, the
scientific part, and also thespiritual part, I feel like it
(13:42):
will actually have more profoundimpact.
Tatiana (13:46):
Oh, 100%.
I think the biggest loss topsychology, and we've spoken
about this, I think as well, isthat in the, in the hunger to be
taken seriously as a science, itdisconnected from its soul
essence, right?
Like that's the, the root wordwhat psychology means, study of
the soul,
Poh (14:04):
yes, yes, yes, yes,
Tatiana (14:07):
And we lost sight of that because we wanted to be
taken seriously as scientists.
But there's no separation,right?
I believe this.
And I'm sure you agree thatscience, when we discover new
things in the universe, innature, we're discovering the
spiritual truth of life, right?
Like.
Poh (14:25):
yeah,
Tatiana (14:26):
It's not either or.
Poh (14:27):
yeah.
And I, at the very beginning ofmy learning in psychology I find
that I have to be morescientific and like, you know,
some of the spiritual beliefsthat I learned in Buddhism
because it can't be proved inthe science experiments or like,
(14:48):
you know, in the randomizedcontrolled trials and, and that
it's not something that you cantell other people and you have
to kind of like, you know, keepit to yourself and like, you
know, don't, don't show it,don't, don't talk about it
because that's not, you know,evidence based and And I think
like one of the things like, youknow, talking about like, this
(15:09):
science and the spirituality oneof the things that I think in my
master years, I really wanted totalk about like mindfulness and
this is back in 2005 and 2006.
I really wanted to use that asmy thesis and research.
But I remember going to mysupervisor and wanting to search
(15:32):
for, uh, a supervisor that cansupervise me.
And I really wanted to talkabout that, but like back then
at my university the supervisoror lecturer said like, it's.
It is perhaps you should dosomething else, not this.
And so like it was at the time,perhaps in Perth it was not very
(15:56):
popular and it was only like,you know, I remember, you know,
according to all of thesearticles and the things that I
was searching for and I wantedto talk about that.
But it was kind of like met withrejection.
So like it was then like, youknow, one of the things that I
feel like, Oh, I need to hide, Ineed to hide, but to see act
(16:17):
and, you know, being, becomingmore popular and that I can have
a valid space to, to, topractice and, and, and use that
language and scientific languageto, to, to work with my clients,
I think.
Tatiana (16:32):
Yes.
Poh (16:33):
That has been uh, a blessing.
Yeah.
Tatiana (16:37):
Oh, wow.
Poh (16:38):
Yeah.
Tatiana (16:38):
But I think that's really interesting that you're
starting to talk about the, thefears around incorporating the,
the two, right, psychology andscience and how there is this
pressure from our community,particularly, I think mostly in
Australia, but there is thispressure that we should be very,
like, these two things should bevery separate.
So.
(16:59):
In acknowledging that you feltsome of that fear and you felt
some of that pressure, how didyou override it?
Because now we're here, we'rehaving conversations about this,
running a program very soonwhere you're incorporating the
spiritual element.
So obviously you've been workingon like overcoming that fear and
I'd love to hear how you did it.
Poh (17:22):
mm.
Tatiana (17:22):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
Poh (17:25):
I think, I think this is, uh, a really recent thing that I
decided to do both together.
And it's actually quitesurprising, you know, like, I
think two years ago last yearwhen I met working, when I
started working with my coachand Hayley and Emma and, and,
(17:49):
and doing this spiritual thisfuture self exercise, I think
that probably is one of thethings that like, you know, pull
me out of like, brought out thespiritual side of me.
So I sign up for these like, youknow, online program creation,
uh, for therapist incubatorprogram.
(18:09):
And I thought that I was goingto.
Deliver a program aboutneurodiversity affirming
practices and supportingchildren and or like parents
with emotion regulation.
But when I did that future self,uh, meditation exercises, this
(18:29):
part of me just came out sostrongly about a spiritual
person.
And I think like the, the seeds.
inside me and that drive insideme were always there and it's
just kind of like brought intoconsciousness and that, and in,
(18:50):
in that, in that meditationpractice My future self saying
that like, you know, what youneed, it's already within you,
you have what it takes.
And, and, and when I alignmyself to that future self of
wanting to be a bodhisattva tobe so these bodhisattva that I'm
(19:13):
talking about is this apractitioner that have been
practicing within themselves tosee that spiritual essence
themself and and wanting to todo the same thing to supporting
other people to see their trueessence and that true nature and
that part of me just wanting tobe wanting this fearful mind,
(19:40):
this thinking mind that I'vebeen hiding and hiding to say
that like, you know, it's okay,you know, you, you need to step
up so that like you are able toreach more people and to, to
connect with people.
their spiritual self, and thatwill transcend a lot of the
(20:02):
suffering.
And I see myself, and, andbefore I wanted to do all of
that, I was really quite trappedin my thinking mind, even though
I've been practicing.
But because they are sodifferent, it's kind of like
parallel line and it felt likeit can't be quite integrated.
(20:23):
And I think at the time I wasalso quite burnt out as well.
And I stopped practicing myspiritual practices and
meditation because I was likereally just busy trying to to do
a lot of things that I think isimportant and, but it doesn't
really it doesn't really.
Resonate with what I wanted tobe as a person But I wanted to
(20:49):
have more and I wanted to see agreater contribution that goes
beyond this lifetime.
And, and I think.
And maybe that's the main driverwhy I am so fearlessly,
fearlessly you know, wanting tospeak about this, wanting to
(21:09):
talk about this and wanting tobring about this to share with
other people.
And I think that passion drivesme to break through those fears.
and wanting to hide.
And there are times when I stillwanted to hide.
But I was just keep connectingto, to, to that essence and
(21:29):
connecting to that future self.
And it brings me like back toYes, I do this because of my
mission.
I do this because I can see abigger picture of Humankind and
that's what I wanted to do.
Tatiana (21:48):
Yes.
Connecting with your essence andthe truth of your life purpose
has given you that courage.
Poh (21:54):
Yes, yes, yes, yeah,
Tatiana (21:58):
It's so beautiful because then you can embody that
for others too, right?
You can role model that.
Yeah.
Poh (22:06):
going through that journey actually makes, makes me realize
that like, I'm not the only onethat felt Like that.
And, and, and perhaps a lot ofthe other therapists have always
felt like they need to high or,or perhaps they're pursuing
something that they think isimportant, but perhaps if they
(22:27):
really quiet down and, andconnecting with themselves, and
perhaps they might see the need.
Differently, and maybe that,that will help them to drive,
uh, them to do something and,and get them out of that cycle
of burnout.
Just like how I did with myself.
(22:48):
Yeah.
Tatiana (22:50):
And I, I mean, I'm not, I'd love to hear your thoughts
on this Poh because I've, a fewother people who I've had on the
podcast and we've spoken about.
Burnout and sustainable living.
One of the thing that keepscoming up is this idea that one
of the contributors to burnoutis that we're not living
authentically,
Poh (23:08):
Mm
Tatiana (23:09):
right?
And so in having to hide thisvery core aspect of who we are,
our spiritual essence in ourwork actually makes the work
much more draining than it wouldbe otherwise, if we could
incorporate it all.
What do you feel?
What are your thoughts on that?
Does that resonate for you too?
Poh (23:25):
Yes.
Definitely.
And, and I think, and Idefinitely see myself being more
authentic and like talking alittle bit more about and
wanting to like bring some ofthe discussion because I think
I'm okay with it and I then havemore of these inviting.
(23:48):
presence for them to talk about.
And somehow strangely andperhaps a synchronicity that
like I started like even myassisting clients wanting to
talk about spirituality and likethey are on purpose and, and,
And I could recall one of theseclients that I've been
(24:09):
supporting for some time, butbecause of my own journey that
he started talking about thatand about like, you know, his
personal purpose and vision and,and what he wanted to do.
And, and by me being able tohold that space for him, and he
came to his own conclusion abouthis own purpose.
(24:30):
And he, He was quite brave and,you know, embracing that.
And, and making steps and evenmove like interstate to like
pursue his dream and, and meembodying that presence and more
proudly embodying that presenceactually bring perhaps like, you
(24:51):
know, that benefits actuallyit's felt and that felt sense
that presence in the therapy isactually benefiting both Me and
my clients.
Tatiana (25:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Isn't that amazing?
I mean, that's such a beautifulillustration as well of that
exchange that happens in atherapeutic relationship, right?
Like yes, we're helping them,but then sometimes we gain
things from those exchanges aswell.
Poh (25:17):
yeah.
Yeah.
And
Tatiana (25:19):
so beautiful.
Poh (25:19):
yeah, and I guess like, to, to come back to your questions
about, you know, like ask nothiding.
Tatiana (25:27):
Mm.
Poh (25:28):
I think that the, the discussion becomes richer
because because we have beendodging, uh, not talking about
it and we perhaps perhaps we canonly go like to this this far
when we are supporting them.
But like, you know, if you areable to embrace that full
(25:48):
spectrum of Spirituality or, youknow, being seen as who we are
as a whole person that actuallybrings them to be able to felt
our authenticity
Tatiana (26:04):
Yes.
Poh (26:06):
and, and that allows them to be who they are as well.
Tatiana (26:11):
100%.
Yeah.
Again, it's that role modeling,right?
Like paving the way for otherpeople.
Yeah.
It's beautiful.
So what are some of the benefitsthat you have found about
incorporating spirituality intoyour life On that personal
level?
Yes.
Poh (26:28):
I guess I've been more careful and, and I guess like,
by me practicing a little bitmore and connecting more to
these Open spaciousness, myobserving self and, and in, in
that part of me.
And, and I think like in thepast I've been quite, uh, high
(26:49):
achiever was quite aperfectionistic thinking and
perhaps, self identified ADHD,uh, uh, that is kind of like a,
my compensation strategies to bea neurodivergent that I think in
the past I've been working toohard to, to protect this part of
(27:12):
me.
And I think like it through thespiritual practices and the
meditation is actually allowingme to be more compassionate
towards myself.
And, and also to to, I don'tknow.
Like it felt like, you know,when I'm at this really core
sense of who I am some of theselimiting beliefs doesn't really
(27:37):
bother me as much.
And I was able to kind of like,I'd recognize them.
But I don't let them makedecisions for me and they kind
of can kind of like drop veryquickly.
I can drop them very quickly,more so compared to the past
when I'm anchored in thispristine awareness.
(28:02):
So I, I feel that like, youknow, it, it has.
Allowed me to feel more restfuland, and less drained by the
thinking mind that I have beenoperating in the past but more
so like really grounded andpresent here.
(28:22):
And I think like, that's where alot of the energy drives me now
come from here and not in the,the past.
The small mind of likecompensation, like, Oh, I need
to do more.
I need to do more because I'mnot good enough and flipping
that to a more grounded sense ofwho I am as a person
Tatiana (28:45):
Yes.
Poh (28:46):
and that
Tatiana (28:46):
More heart.
Poh (28:47):
helps me to, to do more things.
Tatiana (28:51):
Yes.
Poh (28:51):
not in a burnout way, not in a like, you know, I need to
prove myself and, but I'malready whole to begin with.
So I think that not just intheory understanding, but more
in the practical sense ofembodiment sense that felt sense
of who I am that really yeah, Ithink like it's a paradigm shift
(29:15):
for, is a, a flip of lens.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Tatiana (29:21):
I just want to emphasize what you just said
then, because that was sobeautiful.
This concept of moving fromfeeling like you're not good
enough and that you need toprove yourself to having this
certainty, no, you are enough,right?
You're already whole or thewords that you use, I'm already
whole.
And that, that's so true in ouressence, in our soul essence,
(29:42):
we're whole.
And I think that's, you've, youspoke about that really, really
well.
Poh (29:47):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah.
And I think like when I'm inthat sense, that, that really
connected way and I really lovetalking about this and I really
want to talk about this.
I really wanted to share withother people and, and let them
have a bit of that joy and And,and that groundedness and, and,
(30:12):
and I think that really drivesme to wanting to like speak up
and use my voice.
Whereas before that I will belike, you know, Oh no, I can't
talk about this.
And that is more from thethinking that is limiting
myself.
Tatiana (30:27):
Yeah.
Wow.
That's so powerful on a personallevel.
What about professionally?
How do you feel that integratingthat spirituality component has
enhanced your professional orpsychological practice?
Poh (30:41):
I guess like, this embodied presence of who I am as a person
and, and feel that groundednesswithin myself and showing up as
this seems to be more of itbrings a different energy in
the, in the room.
And,
Tatiana (31:00):
Mm
Poh (31:01):
and, and I feel that like I can truly listen.
I can truly be fully present and
Tatiana (31:09):
hmm.
Poh (31:10):
with my, uh, clients and.
And I think they, they wouldfeel that as well.
And, and brewing, I think likethat being fully present in this
pristine awareness.
And I think like there isanother part of like the, the
spiritual concepts that that,uh, that I think it's quite.
(31:35):
Empowering is that the person infront of me shares that
wholeness and, and, and doesshare humanity that like this
person in front of me and me,and are troubled by the same
thing, like troubled by the samelimiting beliefs uh, all the
(31:55):
conditioning that they areunder.
And.
And it, I think it brings thatreally full essence of
compassion and empathy
Tatiana (32:08):
Mm
Poh (32:08):
to be in the room, holding these persons in mind in a
really holistic and like full,uh, way that, that allows that
person to heal and, and for themto connect with their essence.
That's all.
Yeah.
They are pristine awareness.
Actually they do the workthemself and they heal that part
(32:34):
of the the wounds themselfrather than me being the person
that change.
But I, I, I'm just creating thatspace for them to do that work
to see for their self energy ortheir true nature to shine
through.
So I think.
That in itself creates a reallyempowering sense for the clients
Tatiana (33:01):
Yes,
Poh (33:01):
find out on power.
It was not me, but I'm only likean agent to support them, to
connect with that part ofthemself.
I don't know.
It doesn't make sense.
Tatiana (33:13):
no, it makes sense.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Poh (33:16):
Yeah.
Tatiana (33:17):
It is, it's, it's helping them also connect with
that essence, right.
And yeah, and be led from thatplace, which is what allows them
to then navigate life with moreease.
And like you said, connect withthat shared humanity for other
people, because that's the humanexperience, right?
Like we all go throughdifferent, similar things in our
own ways.
(33:38):
The S, the things are the same.
And we can lose sight of thatsometimes and feel really lonely
in our suffering or in our pain.
Poh (33:44):
Mm.
Mm.
Tatiana (33:46):
and I, that's, that's very true.
Poh (33:48):
Yeah.
So I think I, I, I'm operatingless of a, like the expert
model, but more so with thatshare humanity and,
Tatiana (33:59):
Yes.
Poh (34:00):
And And, and to trust that they have that, uh, in the
resources within themselves to,to make changes and to, to, to
relate differently to theirpain, their suffering.
I think I like to think thatlike my clients feel that
presence and, and, and that theimpact is, is, is there and
(34:26):
like,
Tatiana (34:27):
I have no doubt that's the case because your genuine
nature comes through so clearly,
Poh (34:32):
Oh, thank, mm,
Tatiana (34:34):
You know, and people connect with that.
I think that itself is veryhealing.
Poh (34:38):
mm,
Tatiana (34:39):
So, yeah, I have no doubt.
Poh (34:41):
thank you.
Mm
Tatiana (34:43):
So on that, what value or benefit do you see for
psychologists and therapists inparticular to embrace their
spiritual selves or at least bea little bit more curious about
spirituality?
Yeah.
Poh (34:56):
I think like what we have talked about before that by.
Embodying that our own like truespiritual essence and the
discussion and the space that wehold for our clients will be a
stronger presence and will be,will be allowing for like
(35:21):
greater healing that happen inthe client and also the
therapeutic alliance that wehave with the clients will be
stronger.
And I think there are actually alot of the, a lot of the things
that are not yet being proven inthe scientific study.
(35:41):
And, and I guess like if.
We are more open to thediscussion.
The clients are, uh, perhaps theclients might feel the same way.
You know, like if we, uh, find aneed to hide and not talk about
it imagine what our clientsmight be feeling that, oh, this
is not something that we cantalk with therapists.
(36:03):
Maybe that's what they'rethinking.
But if the clients are.
If we are open and curious, thenthey, they may feel like they
have this permission to talkabout how they're connected with
greater beings or like theuniverse or their spiritual
(36:24):
beliefs as well.
And I see that like when theyare connected to their
spirituality and sometimes ithelps them to get through the
challenges in their life.
And with greater strength andwith greater connection and this
this commitment and thisdevotion in themselves that they
(36:45):
can get through things.
Yeah, I think by us practicingmore and being more aligned to
our, uh, spiritual self we're nolonger operating on that
conditioned thinking mindperhaps when we are no longer
being limited by our thinkingmind that's where like, there's
(37:08):
more potential that could betapped into that we might not
yet able to prove.
In the scientific study
Tatiana (37:19):
not yet, but soon.
Mm,
Poh (37:24):
but not yet.
But it doesn't mean that it'snot there.
And, and I think and we cansense it, we can feel it
Tatiana (37:32):
mm,
Poh (37:33):
And, and, and it allows us to be more intuitive.
I have such trust in myself.
like if I were to compare myselfto when I first practiced as a
psychologist and versus where Iam now.
I think I have to prepare, youknow, script by script, words by
(37:55):
words, like, you know, what arethe right thing to say But
whereas now I kind of like beingin that that space where I'm
really anchored and like some ofthose things just come through
and it just flows and I justknow the right thing to say and,
and the right actions to takeand, and that embodied sense.
(38:20):
Actually, I think inneuroscience, it says that like,
you know, when you are feelingthese and groundedness and our
presence can actually impact andco regulating with our clients.
And they, they feel anchored,they feel grounded as well in
that space.
Tatiana (38:40):
Yes,
Poh (38:41):
know, I feel that like that, that is something that is
perhaps less able to bedemonstrated in the, evidence
based study.
Tatiana (38:52):
Yes.
Poh (38:53):
but we feel it we feel the energy and, and often like a
client walks away feelingdifferent, not because of the
words that we say, but thepresence that we embody in, in
the sessions.
Tatiana (39:09):
Absolutely.
Poh (39:10):
Yeah.
Tatiana (39:11):
Yeah.
It's that intangible, right?
Which it is, it's what makes itso hard to measure.
Yeah, but maybe, I think therewill come a day when they'll be
able to measure it, but in theright way.
I think at the moment there'slimitations to the way that we
approach these things, whichmakes it feel like it's
impossible to, Asia, but it'sjust approaching it from the
wrong place and in the, with thewrong tools.
(39:34):
Think that's going to changewith time, but that's, yeah,
that's so beautiful.
Again, it's, it just highlightsthat the power of the
therapeutic relationship and howthis spiritual concept or that
presence as you're talking aboutit it just maximizes the healing
potential
Poh (39:51):
Yeah.
I like the way that you put it.
Yes.
I like it.
It's, it's like enhancing it.
Tatiana (39:56):
This.
Poh (39:57):
yeah.
And the techniques that you useis powerfully presented because
you are fully present with theperson.
Person in front of you?
Mm
Tatiana (40:07):
absolutely.
Who was it that said, was itCarl Jung that said, learn all
the, all the theories, learn allthe techniques, but when you're
in the room with another humanbeing, just be a human being.
I'm botching the quote, but itwas something along those lines.
Poh (40:24):
I understand exactly what you mean.
Yes.
Tatiana (40:28):
It's, yeah, it's, that's the essence of what
that's talking about, isn't it?
What's, I guess we're in a finalreflection.
Then if you had to pick onetransformative aspect of
embracing spirituality morefully.
Both on that personal and aprofessional level, what aspect
would that be for you of all thethings we've spoken about?
What do you think is that onereally gold nugget of
Poh (40:52):
Uhhuh.
Tatiana (40:53):
potential?
Poh (40:55):
I guess it will have to come back to, you know, that
what my future self said to me,you know, like what you have is.
what you need is already withinyou.
I think we often, you know, orperhaps the society in some way
has kind of conditioned us tokind of like pursue outwardly
(41:17):
and thinking that maybe we needto like, you know, just learn
the next techniques and the nexttherapeutic uh, strategies.
But I, I feel like we have somuch in here that we
Tatiana (41:32):
Yes.
Poh (41:33):
have not spent enough time to cultivate and explore within
us and what that could be and,and how by us going in within
and find that stillness andstability and that who we are as
in essence By doing that,perhaps the whole transformation
(41:57):
of finding who we are as aperson and bringing that out and
the whole outlook andperspective and the way that you
approach therapy or like in thepersonal level and how you
interact with other people andrelationships and how your
(42:17):
parent and all of that, that,that The need for control, might
drop, and the need to impressmight drop, the need to please
might drop, and you just feelwhole within you.
And I think that's the, that'ssomething that that's something
that you, you can't get in thematerial sense.
(42:42):
And no matter how, how much youget from the material, physical
world, that is not somethingthat you can get from here.
I think that certainty and that,is that called conviction or
like, you know, that, that'sThat knowing that knowing
brings, brings so much abundanceand bring so much ease and, and,
(43:05):
and peace.
And that is not something thatother people can get, give you,
but you can have it in withinyou.
And with that strong core andyou can go about and like deal
with any challenges in yourlife.
And, and you'll be able to getthrough, and you will be able to
(43:29):
go about doing whatever missionand purpose that you are here to
do, but in a very strongfearless, uh, way.
Yeah, so I think that is themost important thing.
Tatiana (43:44):
Yes, I beautifully said, and so I have this little
ritual where I always get myguests to recommend a
transformational spiritual book.
That obviously.
Those who are curious to explorespirituality a little bit more
(44:08):
or are looking for a place tobegin, they can start with that.
So from your own experiences,what would be a book that you
feel would be, uh, reallyimpactful
Poh (44:20):
Yeah, so I have two books and I think one of them is the
The book from the HumanityVehicle Buddhism about teacup is
not a teacup But I think thebook is not widely available to
to Like, it's not something thatyou can purchase on Amazon but
(44:44):
it's free for distribution inthe temple, but, and I guess
like for your audience, it mightnot be, uh, widely available.
But this book about our pristinemind and a practical guide to
unconditional happiness by OrganChowan
Tatiana (45:03):
Mm
Poh (45:04):
it brings about that essence of who we are as a
person and to talk about thedifferent levels of the the mind
and consciousness.
I think that is a great place tostart cultivating
Tatiana (45:19):
Oh, beautiful.
Uh huh.
I'll include this a link to thatbook in the show notes for
anyone who's interested ingrabbing a copy.
My, my library of books to readjust keeps expanding.
Poh (45:33):
Yes.
Tatiana (45:33):
going on my library as well.
That's going on my list.
Poh (45:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We all buy too many books,Isabel, and I just need that
time to actually read, to find
Tatiana (45:45):
I sometimes dream about retirement just so I can have
the time to read my books.
Poh (45:50):
Yes.
Tatiana (45:51):
But there's way too much work to be done first.
But, you know, it was so lovelyto have you here today, Poh.
I've really enjoyed ourconversations.
I love your unique perspectiveon spirituality and your journey
with it.
And how you've beenincorporating it into your
practice so beautifully.
I know that you have uh, aprogram coming up and a
meditation circle coming up.
(46:12):
So why don't you tell ourlisteners a little bit about
that for anyone who's interestedin doing some work with you?
Poh (46:17):
Yeah.
So in mid July, I'll be startinga four week Bodhi meditation
circle for therapists interestedin Buddhism and wanting to
deepen their practices andunderstanding about pristine
awareness and, and Buddha natureand also like practically just
practicing We are too busy inour practices and in our day to
(46:39):
day life that we find it hard tofind time.
So by bringing a group oftherapists together, we can
discuss about our insight andour understanding in our
cultivation and also how wepractice in our therapy and
practicing.
The spiritual practices togetherthe meditation.
(47:00):
And so coming up in July, end ofJuly or mid August, I will be
organizing a free webinar abouthow, uh, therapists can manage
the energy effectively Byincorporating not just physical
energy, emotional energy andmental energy, but also
(47:23):
spiritual energy and so that wecan kind of top up and
connecting to, uh, what we'vebeen talking about the, uh, the
essence of who we are
Tatiana (47:34):
Yeah.
Poh (47:35):
In a way to be a sustainable, uh, therapist, work
life balance and, and that, and,and hopefully in, in mid August,
I'll be launching my eight weeksprogram for therapist.
Yeah.
Tatiana (47:52):
fantastic.
So I'll add to the show notes,links to your meditation circle
to your upcoming webinar as wellon your website.
So people can look it up andlearn a little bit more about
what you're doing and sign up ifthey're interested.
But again, Paul, I just wantedto say thank you so much for
agreeing to have thisconversation with me.
(48:13):
It's been, it's been lovely.
I've enjoyed every second.
Uh, and if you have any finalthoughts.
Poh (48:20):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for invitingme Tatiana, you've been really,
really generous and, and I thinklike seeing you finding your
voice and, and talking aboutyour spiritual journey, actually
really, I wanted to say how muchthis platform and how you show
up actually really inspired me.
(48:43):
to show up the way I am as well.
So I just wanted to share thatwith you, that deep gratitude I
have for you having thisplatform to talk about
spirituality and for therapists.
And thank you.
Tatiana (48:57):
No, thank you.
I appreciate you and appreciatethose kind words.
Thank you.
I think we're all learning fromeach other, right?
Like it, it helps to have moreand more people coming together
that are walking the same pathand supporting each other to do
so.
So yeah, I'm very grateful to bemeeting more and more spiritual
psychs like you.
Poh (49:16):
Thank you.
Tatiana (49:17):
so I guess that's it for today.
Thank you so much for those ofyou who listened, To this
episode, it's a long one today.
And I'm sure you've been, you'llget so much value from what
we've been talking through and Ihope you all have a lovely week
and I will see you all nexttime.
Poh (49:35):
Thank you.
Bye.
Tatiana (49:37):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Integrated
Wisdom.
It is my sincere wish thattoday's episode may have
intrigued and inspired you toreclaim your power and step into
becoming more fully integratedspiritual beings.
New episodes are published everysecond Wednesday and I hope
you'll continue to join us as wedive deeper into what it means
(50:01):
to live an integrated life.
So if it feels aligned to you, Iinvite you to hit subscribe and
share it with others who youfeel may benefit too.
You may also find me onInstagram at integrated
underscore wisdom.
Remember each moment is anopportunity to embrace your
divine potential and create aworld that is more frequently
(50:24):
inspired.
So for now, stay connected, stayinspired and keep shining your
light into the world.
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