April 1, 2025 • 19 mins
Chris and Spence are hitting each other over the head with sticks in this week’s episode of Irish Gothic….. April Fool’s ! All joking aside, on this week's episode, Chris and Spence are diving into the fascinating lore of Ireland's fighting stick : the Shillelagh. Listen in to learn more about this iconic Irish weapon.
The Irish Gothic Podcast explores the origins of Irish Folk tales. myths and legends in all their dark, fantastical glory and how these vivid yarns continue to resonate across the world to this very day.
Join Hosts Chris Patterson and Spence Wright as they fuse their love for all thing's horror with a wellspring of Irish lore.
From the terrifying figure of the Dullahan to the origins of Halloween itself, if it’s a yarn you’re after, pull up a chair and let ‘Irish Gothic’ fill your ears.
Hosts: Chris Patterson & Spence Wright
Producer: Rebecca Alcorn
Production Company: Causeway Pictures
Bibliography:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
I know all the folks round thesearts and parts.
Can't say I know you.
Leastways.
Not yet.
But I dare say I know whatyou'll be wanting.
Some of the crack, maybe.
How we yarn with your sup, isit?
(00:39):
No harm in that.
Come on over.
Warm yourself, hmm?
I'll warn you though.
If it's the old Begara andBlarney shenanigans you're
after, you'll not hear them fromme.
Well, if such, like, pleasesyou, you sit on.
I'll fill your ears.
(01:01):
And see what story is meant foryou.
On this dark old night.
chris-patterson_2_10-23-202 (01:22):
I'm Chris
spencey-guest437_2_10-23-20 (01:23):
I'm Spence
chris-patterson_2_10-23-202 (01:24):
And this is the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
squadcaster-53e9_6_03-10- (01:35):
Well, good evening folks, and welcome
back to Irish Gothic.
We have a episode this week,which is Irish as, I don't know,
green beer on some public's dayand leprechaun hats.
It's the famous Sheli that,emblem of Ireland, which you
surprisingly, it certainly asorigins certainly surprise me.
So tonight we're gonna talkabout the, she.
squadcaster-53e9_7_03-10-202 (02:08):
So folks.
I'm sure anyone who's ever beenin an Irish gift shop or, been
here on, on a visit or been senta disc cloth with Irish proverbs
on, they're normally bedeckedwith ies and they come in all
tacky forms, not always tacky,but what are they, what are they
all about and what actually arethey?
Well, they, the originsinitially the, is from the
(02:30):
majestic ancient force, in Wickand.
In essence is a piece of gnarledstout, really strong black thorn
wood, which would've been used,as a walking stick.
It would be, has become theemblem for lots of mildy
regiments in Ireland.
Soly in essence, is a stick, butits history and what it was used
(02:53):
for go is much more intriguingthan.
What you might think if you pickup a plastic one in a tourist
shop.
Chris, I believe you know alittle bit about how these
things were originally used.
chris-patterson_7_03-10-2 (03:05):
Well, most certainly the Elli was an a
fighting stick.
Now, of course, fighting sticksgo back to the earliest origins
of mankind.
In fact, you know, you see thekey in men with clubs and they
go around clubbing each other.
It's the best stick you can get,the strongest stick you can get,
you can beat your enemy with it.
(03:27):
And I suppose it was the, youknow, improving, doing your
modifications to it, improvingit, and making it better.
It was sort of the first armrace.
Now, stick fighting as a martialarts was once common throughout
Europe.
And indeed the word vesti, you'dstill survive.
Notably maybe France, Italy,Portugal, Japan, the
(03:49):
Philippines.
South Africa, New Zealand, andof course Ireland.
The enduring nature of the niconic Shali owes its survival
to a fascinating amalgam of law,propaganda, colonialism, and
xenophobia, because you couldimagine that it was the only
(04:10):
weapon you could carry.
You could use it as a walkingstick, but you could also, beat
the man over the head that'strying to steal your bag of gold
off you as you walk down a lane.
Spence.
squadcaster-53e9_7_ (04:19):
Absolutely.
I think it's just, was it thepreferred weapon of the Let
records for that very purpose,wasn't it?
chris-patterson_8_03- (04:23):
certainly is.
Because it represents beingIrish no matter where you are in
the world.
squadcaster-53e9_8_03-10- (04:28):
Yeah.
As you say, Chris, it is thatsymbol of strength and irishness
and maybe even resistance,towards colonialism, as you say.
I, there's so much to it.
I mean that this whole traditionof stick fighting developed over
centuries and, pre-farm Irelandseemed to have a lot of
correlation with market days orfares.
When people from different areaswould all converge and and old
(04:50):
scores would be would besettled.
They talk about one notoriousone, Donny Brook Fair, which was
a mecca for stick fighting andtigers mayhem.
You part brawls riots, deathkind, I think.
I believe it was up to 20 peoplekilled at one such fight.
Probably more'cause because theyhad injuries later.
(05:12):
Wouldn't manifest later on, soyoung fighting men come to these
fairs.
They would stuff their hats withstraw to try and ward off, the
worst effects of the stickfighting.
So it's, it wasn't just the meneither.
Women were known to gatheraround the edges of these stick
fights, fill their socks with,stones and pebbles, but they've
(05:32):
got a life of brand sketch hereand chuck these stone filled
socks into the Malay as well toclaim a few, to claim a few
heads.
So absolutely a symbol of chaosand riotous behavior in, in, in
rural Ireland.
It's a typical Saturday night.
chris-patterson_8_03-10-2 (05:48):
Well,
squadcaster-53e9_8_03-10-20 (05:48):
And again, you talked about
colonialism.
This was something that the sortof, the English almost used to
say look how lawless and howriotous and how savage and how
drunk in these ris, theseparties are.
And they used the Ali as almosta, as a, a.
I think to mock and then show usfor being less than what we are.
When you compare that to thefine upstanding image of
(06:10):
Britannia that was projectedhere, we were stick wheel in
savages in the countryside.
chris-patterson_9_03-10 (06:28):
Spence, the word shali, which has its
origins in the once majestic oakforest of shali in county loo,
unfortunately, has now becomesynonymous with a certain type
of tacky tourist artifact.
You know, it certainly does, buthowever, the genuine article.
a formidable weapon, mostly madefrom oak or blackthorn root wood
(06:53):
around three foot long in adeadly nard knot.
Varying and girth slimmer.
could be poised.
The sliver variety could bepoised obs extensively as a
highly polished walk and stick.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (07:13):
It's interesting, Chris, we talk
about the blackthorn, the other,tree or wood associated with
iron would be the Hawthorne.
I like the blackthorn.
It's gnarly, it's tough, it'sreadily available.
Any farmer who's ever had to cutdown, a Hawthorne tree would say
it's a job and a half.
So the question then is I wonderwhy Blackthorn and not
Hawthorne.
(07:34):
Now I know you'll know thisbecause of your Irish Catholic
this, but we, the Hawthorneitself.
Has so much connected to it inrelation to the ferries and how
unlucky it is considered to cutdown a Hawthorne tree.
And those same attachmentsaren't on blackthorn if you mess
(07:55):
with the Hawthorne, there'sroads in Ireland, which have
been, which banned around aHawthorne tree.
The, there were some workers inDeLorean, you know, the Great
car from back of the future.
They believed that DeLorean wentdown and collapsed as a company
because one of its factories wasbuilt on the site of where a
Hawthorne tree had beenuprooted.
(08:15):
So, look, I can understand whypeople were maybe a wee bit shy
of, using Hawthornes even withevery bit as good a piece of
wood.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (08:21):
We mentioned Hawthorne last week
in, aver talk they put Hawthorneon top of his grave.
It's that mythical, links toHawthorne like you're saying.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (08:34):
Yep.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (08:34):
but definitely I don't think
Hawthorne, itself is a strong.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025 (08:41):
I maybe not just as strong.
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (08:43):
the
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (08:43):
I.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (08:44):
is when you I know that you've
probably, you've seen thewalking sticks and there's a few
times we've filmed with ourShanay with a walking stick.
And they are hard.
I mean, if they hit you with thenovelly bit on the end, you're
gonna feel that, okay.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (09:00):
You are going to feel it.
All right.
Hey, and it's not to say, Chris,that the black thorn doesn't
have magical properties.
'cause interestingly, there area few things around the black
thorn, just as we aside so theycan protect you against the
ferries and particularly the, ifI'm saying that correctly, the
moon ferries.
So the moon ferries werebelieved to look over black
thorns.
If you were to cut down a blackthorn, the moon ferries wouldn't
(09:22):
be so keen.
So what they would say is thebest time to cut?
A blackthorn, if you fancymaking yourself a blackthorn.
Elli Chris would be during theharvest when the moon was full
because those ferries would beoff, doing whatever they do in
the moonlight and then their eyewould be off, off the ball and
you'd be able to nab yourself ablackthorn.
It's also a darker side to, aswell, sort of regarded as a
(09:42):
female tree in mythology.
So, queen Maeve, the Morgan whowe spoke about, that goddess of
battle strife and fertility, andthen we have the cack that the c
crone of death and is believedthat she started winter by
banging the black thorn on theground.
And that's what herd heralded inwinter.
So, you know, look, again, it'sjust got a great pathology
around it.
Probably not as much as theHawthorne.
(10:05):
But, you know, it's certainlysomething that, that features in
other Irish legends as well asthis very real practical use
that you're talking about.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (10:13):
Well, I mean, they just don't come off
the tree looking the way theyfinally look.
I mean, generally, the longersticks were known as wattles and
the shorter sticks were referredto as kaing.
The wound is cured with avariety of different methods,
including immersing and manure.
Rubbing with butter, in achimney, and even polishing with
(10:35):
magpie blood could be part ofthe process.
Some Ellis loaded, weighted, andmelted with lead for extra
impact.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (10:46):
No way.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (10:49):
So these were formidable weapons.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (10:52):
And it's a real art.
I mean, I don't know how commonit is these days, but I know, I
do know a few locals here whereI live in who, who do still make
these sticks, and they are athing of beauty to behold.
And even more so now, knowingone their legacy, attached to
them.
And funny, one of the things,you know, what came up during
the research was, because youmentioned there, chris about the
(11:12):
kinda colonialism andxenophobia, you know, following
the Battle of the Boy and backin 1690, a huge battle between
neo protest and Catholic forces.
These penal laws were broughtin.
Catholics were forbidden to ownproperty and land.
They weren't allowed to ownhorses over a certain height
and.
They could not be in possessionof weapons.
And this led to that resurgenceof what you're topic, Chris, you
(11:34):
know, the use of civilities as aweapon because other forms of
weaponry were being denied.
The people as part of thesepenal laws,
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (11:42):
It was definitely an art form it
was an art form amongst theIrish peasants at that time, I.
Like many other art forms, we'velost it.
I mean, we still have theability to hit each other over
the head with sticks.
I just don't think we probablydo it with Ellis.
which I think is probablyunfortunate, to have a good
elli.
But unfortunately these dayswhen you pick one up in the
(12:04):
shop, they're usually two orthree inches long.
And it's actually funny'causewe're gonna do this season
obviously leprechauns, but wetalk about how in the mythology
of leprechauns, they, becamesmaller and smaller as
Christianity grew bigger andbigger, and the shale did the
same.
They became smaller and smaller,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (12:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (12:24):
and I'd say that you could probably
walk down a street anywhere inIreland, and you would see
possibly an old man with, a eleas a walking stick.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-1 (12:33):
Mm-hmm.
And reducing it in stature,Chris, as you, I know we'll talk
about this more in theleprechauns, but that's almost
reducing Irishness, this symbolof Irish strength and
resistance, you know to almostmock it by reducing it, by
diminishing it, you know, it's aclever tactic.
You, it was probably one used byby many, a government and many
(12:54):
a, a warlord and a dictatortoday.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (12:57):
Well, I can't remember whether you
said this earlier.
I think you may have touched onit, but the British government
have a number of their regimentsin the army, have the shali in
their coats of arms,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (13:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (13:09):
and that is almost, an
appropriation.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (13:12):
And it shows you Chris, it keeps
that connection, you know, sosomething that was almost,
laughed at and snared at is nowa proud.
Emblem of armed forces from thisneck of the woods who, you know,
men and women who have, who'vedied wearing that emblem upon
them are under that flag.
So, you know, it's found its wayback in to, to, maybe more
respectful place than where theydon't get me wrong, there's
(13:35):
nothing quite nice about littleminiature surely.
But I think now we know what thehistory of it is.
It just makes it that all themore intriguing.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (13:43):
Well, I think I've been sold on it.
I definitely want a sele, abeaten sele as I,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (13:47):
I've beaten sli
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_ (13:48):
a beaten sele.
Most definitely.
I think we've covered what asele is, because you know
neither of us know how to fightwith the Elli,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (13:59):
no.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (13:59):
and we'd probably be beaten by our
wives with it.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (14:01):
Well, let's here, Chris.
I'm trying to think now,'causeyou asked me last episode about
favorite vampire films.
So I'm gonna ask you now.
Favorite film with stickfighting?
I, I don't know if this is thecorrect answer, but the field,
it's not what Richard Harrisdoes barringer in with
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (14:19):
He does.
Yes,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (14:20):
and tur him in the, it it's a big
old ChaLea, isn't it?
chris-patterson_9_03-10-20 (14:23):
It's a big old sheele.
He has a, he carries it with himas a walking stick.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (14:27):
What better weapon you'cause that,
you know, that story is, thecommercialization of Ireland,
the, you know, capitalism, therich American coming to buy the
land of this man of till for,for, for nothing.
And what better weaponsymbolically to use than that
really.
And the other famous fightingsticks still have to be all
right.
She's just putting your.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_ (14:46):
I remember.
Arthur Conan Doyle had SherlockHolmes.
He had a,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (14:52):
Uh
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (14:52):
was more, it was more based, UK
based rather than Ireland.
But it was a very much a, agentleman sport, you know, they,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (15:00):
hmm.
chris-patterson_9_03- (15:01):
gentlemen knew and they were also able to
pull the swords outta theirsticks, you know, they
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (15:06):
Of course.
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (15:07):
But I think there was gentleman's
martial arts, I can't rememberthe name of it.
I must look it up.
Which was why they had theircanes and they could use them
like swords,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (15:16):
Ah,
chris-patterson_9_03-10 (15:16):
deflect and so on.
So
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-1 (15:18):
there's a character in Walking Dead
isn't there as a, it's a staff,I guess.
More, what do you call him,Morgan?
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (15:24):
oh yeah.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (15:25):
He is a, you know, he's not a shali
by any means.
You put a big, gnarly, um, endon it.
And it is.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (15:32):
Well, that's it.
And I think that if we were everin a situation for the Walking
Dead, a stick is probably one ofthe best, weapons you could have
rather than
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (15:41):
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10- (15:42):
'cause you never run out of a stick.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (15:44):
If we keep talking Christian, we're
gonna say the walking the Irish.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_ (15:47):
I didn't go into it on our last
episode because there was asideline from our talk, about
the Walking Dead and not thefilm, but the Walking Dead as in
vampires and zombies.
But I didn't go into it.
Maybe I'll go into it in ashorter,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (16:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, let's do that.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (16:04):
on it.
But certainly Ireland does haveits own zombies.
And various other legends aboutthat.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025 (16:10):
I have to say, Chris, when you
first said we were going look atShali, I thought, well what is
there to say?
You know?
But my goodness, it's been oneof those, well, for me
personally, you know, it's, it'snot as dark as some of our other
episodes, but it's really,really, and it's no social side
of it, the colonialism and yeah,it's been brilliant.
Good.
Find how little jam there,Chris.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (16:30):
Yeah, I mean, oh, I've just looked up
online.
You can.
You can buy yourself a nicelittle shali for 60, no, a
proper shali for 69 99.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (16:39):
Well, that's not bad know what?
You get me for my birthday crew?
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (16:42):
and that's it.
So that's Shaili Spence.
So, maybe I have to beat youover the head to find out what
we're gonna do next week.
Do you.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (17:01):
Well, you actually touched upon it
earlier when you mentioned, potsof gold and elli.
So I think we're about due tovisit the little gentleman.
Or good friends of leprechauns,Chris, I think there's probably
more than one podcast in it.
There's much more, as with theele, there's much more to it
than, the gift shop memorabiliathat we all see.
So I, I, I'd be keen to do theleprechauns.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (17:22):
Oh, excellent.
So we'll some.
We'll be somewhere over therainbow next week.
squadcaster-53e9_9_0 (17:29):
Excellent.
Well, listen folks, thanks verymuch.
We'll put up some things on theshow notes in relation to Ellis,
and can't wait to chat to youall again in the company of our,
the Little Gentry, the LittleMen, the Recons.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (17:40):
Catch you next week top of the morning
to you.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (17:44):
Bye folks.
I,
Looks like your story has foundyou.
I wish It were another.
But what's meant for you, won'tgo by you.
(18:05):
I'm sorry.
Ach, now.
No need to look so scared, eh?
Enjoy the fire.
Have a sop.
Sure.
Is it all just Irish Gothic?
All just Irish Gothic.
chris-patterson_10_10-17-20 (18:32):
You can find us at iris gothic pod
on Instagram or X, or if youwant to support us, please buy
us a coffee
spence_9_10-17-2024_205215 (18:40):
and look, while you're there, give
us a follow to keep up with allthings in the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
Send us any Irish myths,legends, stories that you'd like
us to delve into next.
chris-patterson_10_10-23-20 (18:49):
The Irish Gothic Podcast was brought
to you by Causeway Pictures.
It's hosted by Chris Pattersonand Spence Wright.
And was produced by RebeccaAlcorn.
All rights reserved.
chris-patterson_10_10-17- (19:04):
Check out our other podcast, Hostage
to the Devil, which delves intothe dark world of possession and
exorcism.
You can get it wherever you getyour podcasts.
I know all the folks round thesearts and parts.
Can't say I know you.
Leastways.
Not yet.
But I dare say I know whatyou'll be wanting.
Some of the crack, maybe.
How we yarn with your sup, isit?
(00:39):
No harm in that.
Come on over.
Warm yourself, hmm?
I'll warn you though.
If it's the old Begara andBlarney shenanigans you're
after, you'll not hear them fromme.
Well, if such, like, pleasesyou, you sit on.
I'll fill your ears.
(01:01):
And see what story is meant foryou.
On this dark old night.
chris-patterson_2_10-23-202 (01:22):
I'm Chris
spencey-guest437_2_10-23-20 (01:23):
I'm Spence
chris-patterson_2_10-23-202 (01:24):
And this is the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
squadcaster-53e9_6_03-10- (01:35):
Well, good evening folks, and welcome
back to Irish Gothic.
We have a episode this week,which is Irish as, I don't know,
green beer on some public's dayand leprechaun hats.
It's the famous Sheli that,emblem of Ireland, which you
surprisingly, it certainly asorigins certainly surprise me.
So tonight we're gonna talkabout the, she.
squadcaster-53e9_7_03-10-202 (02:08):
So folks.
I'm sure anyone who's ever beenin an Irish gift shop or, been
here on, on a visit or been senta disc cloth with Irish proverbs
on, they're normally bedeckedwith ies and they come in all
tacky forms, not always tacky,but what are they, what are they
all about and what actually arethey?
Well, they, the originsinitially the, is from the
(02:30):
majestic ancient force, in Wickand.
In essence is a piece of gnarledstout, really strong black thorn
wood, which would've been used,as a walking stick.
It would be, has become theemblem for lots of mildy
regiments in Ireland.
Soly in essence, is a stick, butits history and what it was used
(02:53):
for go is much more intriguingthan.
What you might think if you pickup a plastic one in a tourist
shop.
Chris, I believe you know alittle bit about how these
things were originally used.
chris-patterson_7_03-10-2 (03:05):
Well, most certainly the Elli was an a
fighting stick.
Now, of course, fighting sticksgo back to the earliest origins
of mankind.
In fact, you know, you see thekey in men with clubs and they
go around clubbing each other.
It's the best stick you can get,the strongest stick you can get,
you can beat your enemy with it.
(03:27):
And I suppose it was the, youknow, improving, doing your
modifications to it, improvingit, and making it better.
It was sort of the first armrace.
Now, stick fighting as a martialarts was once common throughout
Europe.
And indeed the word vesti, you'dstill survive.
Notably maybe France, Italy,Portugal, Japan, the
(03:49):
Philippines.
South Africa, New Zealand, andof course Ireland.
The enduring nature of the niconic Shali owes its survival
to a fascinating amalgam of law,propaganda, colonialism, and
xenophobia, because you couldimagine that it was the only
(04:10):
weapon you could carry.
You could use it as a walkingstick, but you could also, beat
the man over the head that'strying to steal your bag of gold
off you as you walk down a lane.
Spence.
squadcaster-53e9_7_ (04:19):
Absolutely.
I think it's just, was it thepreferred weapon of the Let
records for that very purpose,wasn't it?
chris-patterson_8_03- (04:23):
certainly is.
Because it represents beingIrish no matter where you are in
the world.
squadcaster-53e9_8_03-10- (04:28):
Yeah.
As you say, Chris, it is thatsymbol of strength and irishness
and maybe even resistance,towards colonialism, as you say.
I, there's so much to it.
I mean that this whole traditionof stick fighting developed over
centuries and, pre-farm Irelandseemed to have a lot of
correlation with market days orfares.
When people from different areaswould all converge and and old
(04:50):
scores would be would besettled.
They talk about one notoriousone, Donny Brook Fair, which was
a mecca for stick fighting andtigers mayhem.
You part brawls riots, deathkind, I think.
I believe it was up to 20 peoplekilled at one such fight.
Probably more'cause because theyhad injuries later.
(05:12):
Wouldn't manifest later on, soyoung fighting men come to these
fairs.
They would stuff their hats withstraw to try and ward off, the
worst effects of the stickfighting.
So it's, it wasn't just the meneither.
Women were known to gatheraround the edges of these stick
fights, fill their socks with,stones and pebbles, but they've
(05:32):
got a life of brand sketch hereand chuck these stone filled
socks into the Malay as well toclaim a few, to claim a few
heads.
So absolutely a symbol of chaosand riotous behavior in, in, in
rural Ireland.
It's a typical Saturday night.
chris-patterson_8_03-10-2 (05:48):
Well,
squadcaster-53e9_8_03-10-20 (05:48):
And again, you talked about
colonialism.
This was something that the sortof, the English almost used to
say look how lawless and howriotous and how savage and how
drunk in these ris, theseparties are.
And they used the Ali as almosta, as a, a.
I think to mock and then show usfor being less than what we are.
When you compare that to thefine upstanding image of
(06:10):
Britannia that was projectedhere, we were stick wheel in
savages in the countryside.
chris-patterson_9_03-10 (06:28):
Spence, the word shali, which has its
origins in the once majestic oakforest of shali in county loo,
unfortunately, has now becomesynonymous with a certain type
of tacky tourist artifact.
You know, it certainly does, buthowever, the genuine article.
a formidable weapon, mostly madefrom oak or blackthorn root wood
(06:53):
around three foot long in adeadly nard knot.
Varying and girth slimmer.
could be poised.
The sliver variety could bepoised obs extensively as a
highly polished walk and stick.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (07:13):
It's interesting, Chris, we talk
about the blackthorn, the other,tree or wood associated with
iron would be the Hawthorne.
I like the blackthorn.
It's gnarly, it's tough, it'sreadily available.
Any farmer who's ever had to cutdown, a Hawthorne tree would say
it's a job and a half.
So the question then is I wonderwhy Blackthorn and not
Hawthorne.
(07:34):
Now I know you'll know thisbecause of your Irish Catholic
this, but we, the Hawthorneitself.
Has so much connected to it inrelation to the ferries and how
unlucky it is considered to cutdown a Hawthorne tree.
And those same attachmentsaren't on blackthorn if you mess
(07:55):
with the Hawthorne, there'sroads in Ireland, which have
been, which banned around aHawthorne tree.
The, there were some workers inDeLorean, you know, the Great
car from back of the future.
They believed that DeLorean wentdown and collapsed as a company
because one of its factories wasbuilt on the site of where a
Hawthorne tree had beenuprooted.
(08:15):
So, look, I can understand whypeople were maybe a wee bit shy
of, using Hawthornes even withevery bit as good a piece of
wood.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (08:21):
We mentioned Hawthorne last week
in, aver talk they put Hawthorneon top of his grave.
It's that mythical, links toHawthorne like you're saying.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (08:34):
Yep.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (08:34):
but definitely I don't think
Hawthorne, itself is a strong.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025 (08:41):
I maybe not just as strong.
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (08:43):
the
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (08:43):
I.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (08:44):
is when you I know that you've
probably, you've seen thewalking sticks and there's a few
times we've filmed with ourShanay with a walking stick.
And they are hard.
I mean, if they hit you with thenovelly bit on the end, you're
gonna feel that, okay.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (09:00):
You are going to feel it.
All right.
Hey, and it's not to say, Chris,that the black thorn doesn't
have magical properties.
'cause interestingly, there area few things around the black
thorn, just as we aside so theycan protect you against the
ferries and particularly the, ifI'm saying that correctly, the
moon ferries.
So the moon ferries werebelieved to look over black
thorns.
If you were to cut down a blackthorn, the moon ferries wouldn't
(09:22):
be so keen.
So what they would say is thebest time to cut?
A blackthorn, if you fancymaking yourself a blackthorn.
Elli Chris would be during theharvest when the moon was full
because those ferries would beoff, doing whatever they do in
the moonlight and then their eyewould be off, off the ball and
you'd be able to nab yourself ablackthorn.
It's also a darker side to, aswell, sort of regarded as a
(09:42):
female tree in mythology.
So, queen Maeve, the Morgan whowe spoke about, that goddess of
battle strife and fertility, andthen we have the cack that the c
crone of death and is believedthat she started winter by
banging the black thorn on theground.
And that's what herd heralded inwinter.
So, you know, look, again, it'sjust got a great pathology
around it.
Probably not as much as theHawthorne.
(10:05):
But, you know, it's certainlysomething that, that features in
other Irish legends as well asthis very real practical use
that you're talking about.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (10:13):
Well, I mean, they just don't come off
the tree looking the way theyfinally look.
I mean, generally, the longersticks were known as wattles and
the shorter sticks were referredto as kaing.
The wound is cured with avariety of different methods,
including immersing and manure.
Rubbing with butter, in achimney, and even polishing with
(10:35):
magpie blood could be part ofthe process.
Some Ellis loaded, weighted, andmelted with lead for extra
impact.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (10:46):
No way.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (10:49):
So these were formidable weapons.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (10:52):
And it's a real art.
I mean, I don't know how commonit is these days, but I know, I
do know a few locals here whereI live in who, who do still make
these sticks, and they are athing of beauty to behold.
And even more so now, knowingone their legacy, attached to
them.
And funny, one of the things,you know, what came up during
the research was, because youmentioned there, chris about the
(11:12):
kinda colonialism andxenophobia, you know, following
the Battle of the Boy and backin 1690, a huge battle between
neo protest and Catholic forces.
These penal laws were broughtin.
Catholics were forbidden to ownproperty and land.
They weren't allowed to ownhorses over a certain height
and.
They could not be in possessionof weapons.
And this led to that resurgenceof what you're topic, Chris, you
(11:34):
know, the use of civilities as aweapon because other forms of
weaponry were being denied.
The people as part of thesepenal laws,
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (11:42):
It was definitely an art form it
was an art form amongst theIrish peasants at that time, I.
Like many other art forms, we'velost it.
I mean, we still have theability to hit each other over
the head with sticks.
I just don't think we probablydo it with Ellis.
which I think is probablyunfortunate, to have a good
elli.
But unfortunately these dayswhen you pick one up in the
(12:04):
shop, they're usually two orthree inches long.
And it's actually funny'causewe're gonna do this season
obviously leprechauns, but wetalk about how in the mythology
of leprechauns, they, becamesmaller and smaller as
Christianity grew bigger andbigger, and the shale did the
same.
They became smaller and smaller,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (12:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (12:24):
and I'd say that you could probably
walk down a street anywhere inIreland, and you would see
possibly an old man with, a eleas a walking stick.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-1 (12:33):
Mm-hmm.
And reducing it in stature,Chris, as you, I know we'll talk
about this more in theleprechauns, but that's almost
reducing Irishness, this symbolof Irish strength and
resistance, you know to almostmock it by reducing it, by
diminishing it, you know, it's aclever tactic.
You, it was probably one used byby many, a government and many
(12:54):
a, a warlord and a dictatortoday.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (12:57):
Well, I can't remember whether you
said this earlier.
I think you may have touched onit, but the British government
have a number of their regimentsin the army, have the shali in
their coats of arms,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (13:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (13:09):
and that is almost, an
appropriation.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (13:12):
And it shows you Chris, it keeps
that connection, you know, sosomething that was almost,
laughed at and snared at is nowa proud.
Emblem of armed forces from thisneck of the woods who, you know,
men and women who have, who'vedied wearing that emblem upon
them are under that flag.
So, you know, it's found its wayback in to, to, maybe more
respectful place than where theydon't get me wrong, there's
(13:35):
nothing quite nice about littleminiature surely.
But I think now we know what thehistory of it is.
It just makes it that all themore intriguing.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (13:43):
Well, I think I've been sold on it.
I definitely want a sele, abeaten sele as I,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (13:47):
I've beaten sli
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_ (13:48):
a beaten sele.
Most definitely.
I think we've covered what asele is, because you know
neither of us know how to fightwith the Elli,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (13:59):
no.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (13:59):
and we'd probably be beaten by our
wives with it.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (14:01):
Well, let's here, Chris.
I'm trying to think now,'causeyou asked me last episode about
favorite vampire films.
So I'm gonna ask you now.
Favorite film with stickfighting?
I, I don't know if this is thecorrect answer, but the field,
it's not what Richard Harrisdoes barringer in with
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (14:19):
He does.
Yes,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (14:20):
and tur him in the, it it's a big
old ChaLea, isn't it?
chris-patterson_9_03-10-20 (14:23):
It's a big old sheele.
He has a, he carries it with himas a walking stick.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (14:27):
What better weapon you'cause that,
you know, that story is, thecommercialization of Ireland,
the, you know, capitalism, therich American coming to buy the
land of this man of till for,for, for nothing.
And what better weaponsymbolically to use than that
really.
And the other famous fightingsticks still have to be all
right.
She's just putting your.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_ (14:46):
I remember.
Arthur Conan Doyle had SherlockHolmes.
He had a,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (14:52):
Uh
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (14:52):
was more, it was more based, UK
based rather than Ireland.
But it was a very much a, agentleman sport, you know, they,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2 (15:00):
hmm.
chris-patterson_9_03- (15:01):
gentlemen knew and they were also able to
pull the swords outta theirsticks, you know, they
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (15:06):
Of course.
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (15:07):
But I think there was gentleman's
martial arts, I can't rememberthe name of it.
I must look it up.
Which was why they had theircanes and they could use them
like swords,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (15:16):
Ah,
chris-patterson_9_03-10 (15:16):
deflect and so on.
So
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-1 (15:18):
there's a character in Walking Dead
isn't there as a, it's a staff,I guess.
More, what do you call him,Morgan?
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (15:24):
oh yeah.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (15:25):
He is a, you know, he's not a shali
by any means.
You put a big, gnarly, um, endon it.
And it is.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (15:32):
Well, that's it.
And I think that if we were everin a situation for the Walking
Dead, a stick is probably one ofthe best, weapons you could have
rather than
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (15:41):
Yeah.
chris-patterson_9_03-10- (15:42):
'cause you never run out of a stick.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-202 (15:44):
If we keep talking Christian, we're
gonna say the walking the Irish.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025_ (15:47):
I didn't go into it on our last
episode because there was asideline from our talk, about
the Walking Dead and not thefilm, but the Walking Dead as in
vampires and zombies.
But I didn't go into it.
Maybe I'll go into it in ashorter,
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (16:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, let's do that.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2025 (16:04):
on it.
But certainly Ireland does haveits own zombies.
And various other legends aboutthat.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-2025 (16:10):
I have to say, Chris, when you
first said we were going look atShali, I thought, well what is
there to say?
You know?
But my goodness, it's been oneof those, well, for me
personally, you know, it's, it'snot as dark as some of our other
episodes, but it's really,really, and it's no social side
of it, the colonialism and yeah,it's been brilliant.
Good.
Find how little jam there,Chris.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (16:30):
Yeah, I mean, oh, I've just looked up
online.
You can.
You can buy yourself a nicelittle shali for 60, no, a
proper shali for 69 99.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (16:39):
Well, that's not bad know what?
You get me for my birthday crew?
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (16:42):
and that's it.
So that's Shaili Spence.
So, maybe I have to beat youover the head to find out what
we're gonna do next week.
Do you.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10- (17:01):
Well, you actually touched upon it
earlier when you mentioned, potsof gold and elli.
So I think we're about due tovisit the little gentleman.
Or good friends of leprechauns,Chris, I think there's probably
more than one podcast in it.
There's much more, as with theele, there's much more to it
than, the gift shop memorabiliathat we all see.
So I, I, I'd be keen to do theleprechauns.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-202 (17:22):
Oh, excellent.
So we'll some.
We'll be somewhere over therainbow next week.
squadcaster-53e9_9_0 (17:29):
Excellent.
Well, listen folks, thanks verymuch.
We'll put up some things on theshow notes in relation to Ellis,
and can't wait to chat to youall again in the company of our,
the Little Gentry, the LittleMen, the Recons.
chris-patterson_9_03-10-2 (17:40):
Catch you next week top of the morning
to you.
squadcaster-53e9_9_03-10-20 (17:44):
Bye folks.
I,
Looks like your story has foundyou.
I wish It were another.
But what's meant for you, won'tgo by you.
(18:05):
I'm sorry.
Ach, now.
No need to look so scared, eh?
Enjoy the fire.
Have a sop.
Sure.
Is it all just Irish Gothic?
All just Irish Gothic.
chris-patterson_10_10-17-20 (18:32):
You can find us at iris gothic pod
on Instagram or X, or if youwant to support us, please buy
us a coffee
spence_9_10-17-2024_205215 (18:40):
and look, while you're there, give
us a follow to keep up with allthings in the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
Send us any Irish myths,legends, stories that you'd like
us to delve into next.
chris-patterson_10_10-23-20 (18:49):
The Irish Gothic Podcast was brought
to you by Causeway Pictures.
It's hosted by Chris Pattersonand Spence Wright.
And was produced by RebeccaAlcorn.
All rights reserved.
chris-patterson_10_10-17- (19:04):
Check out our other podcast, Hostage
to the Devil, which delves intothe dark world of possession and
exorcism.
You can get it wherever you getyour podcasts.
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