March 5, 2025 • 17 mins
Do you feel burned out? Or, maybe it feels like depression. Which begs the question, what's the difference between the two? Burnout and depression have a lot of similarities, but also a lot of differences. We'll highlight the nuances between burnout and clinical depression and also touch on the extensive impact of burnout across various forms of labor, from professional roles to caregiving. Listen in for valuable strategies to combat burnout and stay tuned for a guided meditation in the next episode to help tap into your resilience and navigate stress in healthier ways.
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!
Sources and Notes:
- Joy Lab Program: Take the next leap in your wellbeing journey with step-by-step practices to help you build and maintain the elements of joy in your life.
Full transcript available here.
Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Well, hi everyone.
Aimee here, just coming in beforethis episode begins to give you a
little intro to this encore episode.
So this was a conversation we had withour Joy Lab community a while back.
And during this, this month ofequanimity, our element of joy,
this conversation around burnoutand depression comes up a lot.
(00:52):
I know a lot of us are burned outand it is a big deal because it
can look a lot like depression.
It can feel a lot like depression.
But there are differences andthere are different ways to
go about caring for yourself.
So listen in for some tips and strategiesto help you get out of burnout and
also make it less likely in the future.
(01:14):
And then in next episode, there willbe a special burnout meditation,
that'll be a perfect followup tothis, a practice to help you feel more
confident in your ability to handlestress and to get out of burnout.
And if you are in the Joy Labprogram, you've already seen this
meditation as an optional infusion.
(01:37):
So I hope that you are able toexperience that if not, here's
a great chance to do it now.
So yes, everybody enjoy this episode.
I hope it serves you well.
So, we're talking about burnout today, notbecause our staff is burned out, right?
But because it's just such an important,timely topic and there's so much
(02:03):
going on about this if you if youstay attuned to the literature or the
even the popular press, you know aboutwhat's going on in the world of work.
This is a really big topic.
It's an especially big topic inhealthcare or maybe it's just
what I'm most, most aware of.
(02:23):
But that's a big part of whywe're talking about it now.
Because there's just so much going on.
. So, I personally have an interestin this topic of burnout and
I'll share a little bit why.
Early in my career, and I know alot of people can relate to this,
(02:45):
certainly health professionals canrelate, but early in one's career the
tendency is just to work too hard.
You know just to work so much.
And for me personally, I've writtenabout this and talked about it before,
but my early work as a psychiatristin the in the way that psychiatry has
(03:09):
evolved was simply not very satisfying.
I just wasn't getting fed enough fromthe work I was doing, and I didn't
feel that the people I was workingwith were really getting their needs
met, even though I felt we had goodrelationships and people got better,
but it just wasn't going far enough.
(03:30):
So this combination for, for the firstseveral years of my career, this would
have been mostly in my 30s, too muchwork, not being very satisfying, and
then I also had young kids, and a lot ofpeople can relate to that, and it also
is not a source of burnout, but it'sjust, it's just an awful lot of work.
(03:52):
And time and effort.
So that combination of things had me justright on the edge of a very early burnout,
or you might say an early midlife crisis.
So at that time in Minnesota, therewas a fellowship offered at the time
(04:13):
it was just for physicians, it wascalled the Bush Medical Fellowship.
Bush Foundation sponsored it.
And it basically gave physiciansin practice an opportunity
to take a sabbatical.
Which sounded awfully good to me.
They had one stipulation though, itwas for mid career physicians and
(04:36):
their definition of that was you hadto be in practice for seven years.
So, after about two years I wasgetting mailings about this fellowship
sabbatical and I just thought oh,jeez, I gotta wait five more years.
And so every year I'd get another mailing.
I'd think not yet, not yet.
(04:57):
And then finally year seven I was on itand I applied immediately and luckily I
was granted the fellowship, which was avery graceful way for me to exit, the work
that wasn't satisfying and shift gearsinto something very different, which is
(05:17):
really very much what I'm still doing.
So I did this fellowship.
It was focused on three things.
One, and you'll see these all kind offitting in with our work here now through
Natural Mental Health and Joy Lab.
So one was to focus on naturaltherapies for, uh, in psychiatry
(05:38):
for depression and anxiety.
Second was to find better ways totalk about and incorporate mindfulness
strategies for mental health conditions.
So obviously a lot of thatshowing up here in Joy Lab.
The third thing was to try to find waysto help other health professionals who
(06:01):
were also on the verge of burnout tosomehow renew their work, their career,
their passion for what they're doing.
And so out of that I started a programwhen I finished my fellowship that
was called the Inner Life of Healers.
And it was really geared towards workingat somewhat of a deeper level, a more
(06:23):
reflective kind of level about how tobuild our resilience, but also to renew
our passion for this beautiful work ofhealthcare, which is truly an honor and
a privilege, but you have to be able tosustain it, and that's not so easy to do.
So, this was a long time ago, youknow, some 25 years or more ago,
(06:49):
and unfortunately, the changesthat have occurred since then, have
largely just made things even harder.
It's made it worse.
There is a real effort amongst healthcare institutions and organizations
to try to address this problem becauseit is, there's a looming crisis, I
(07:09):
think, in terms of people droppingout of the field and so Mayo Clinic
is one of the places that's beenkind of at the forefront of this.
And they did a survey in 2015, that dateis important, 2015, before the pandemic,
and that survey showed that 54 percent ofphysicians were showing signs of burnout.
(07:35):
54 percent over half, and obviously thatnumber hasn't gone away or gotten better
since the pandemic and the lockdownand everything, it has only made things
worse, harder on health professionals.
So, this is obviously not an issuethat's limited to physicians either.
(07:56):
So I just want to share one otherlittle piece of research here.
There was a survey done by the Galluporganization called Gallup Daily that
was looking at employee engagement, nothealthcare, just employees all over.
And in the U. S., they found thatonly about 32 percent of people say
(08:16):
that they are engaged by their work.
Worldwide, the numbers are even worse.
It's only about 13percent who feel engaged.
And what they mean by that, the definitionis to be involved, enthusiastic, and
committed to their work and workplace.
That's what it means to be engaged.
So, what does burnout look like?
(08:39):
The Mayo Clinic, for their survey, thisis how they describe burnout: a lack of
interest, chronic fatigue, unprofessionalbehaviors with patients such as a lack of
empathy, anger, impatience, or irritation.
I've seen those things ina clinic from time to time.
(09:00):
And there was this recent study thatI was mentioning earlier that kind of
prompted us to take this on now waslooking at workers in Norway and here
is how they'd looked at the signs,described the signs that you might be
at risk of burnout (09:13):
feeling mentally exhausted at work, struggling to feel
enthusiastic about your job, havingtrouble concentrating while working,
and sometimes overreacting, emotionally,without meaning to, while you're at work.
Now, these two descriptions, there'sa lot of overlap between them.
(09:36):
There's also a lot of overlapwith depression, isn't there?
You know, lack of interest,loss of energy, emotional
reactivity, trouble concentrating.
Very, very similar to manydescriptions of depression.
I don't think they're the samething exactly and I'm going
to talk more about that later.
(09:57):
I think there is a distinctionthat we can make and it's important
because it makes a difference interms of how we might address it.
But I'm going to turn it overto Aimee now to talk about
this in a little different way.
Yeah, before we talk about thedistinction as well, I think it's
helpful to have a big view of work.
And so I want to sort of highlightthere that burnout can show up in
(10:21):
areas that might not so immediatelybe categorized as a nine to five.
So work can include parenting.
Henry, you noted that early on,caring for an aging parent or spouse
or friend or partner, volunteering.
So there's many waysthat labor can show up.
(10:42):
And then adding any of these or manyof these to perhaps like a usual
work situation, you can see howburnout can surge pretty quickly.
Even this morning, I was havinga conversation while waiting for
our daughter's bus with a friend,and we were talking about how
we're caring for our parents.
(11:03):
I'm caring for my mom, who'sin memory care, and then, you
know, our five year old daughter.
That's the sandwich generationthat's often discussed.
And this is more common than ever.
It's estimated that 25 percentof the US population is sort
of stuck in that sandwich.
And particularly if your divisionof labor in the home is fully
(11:25):
on you, or it's lopsided, you'regetting that brunt of work as well.
These things can really add up.
So I think it's good to think prettylarge about what labor looks like,
and then consider those variablesas possible contributors to burnout.
So also to note, you know, parentingis work, caretaking is work, you can
(11:47):
love it, and it can still burn you out.
So, um, just to help kind of put us inthe ballpark of what we're really faced
with here and what we can do about it.
I want to kind of expand thisto talk about the impact on mood
and kind of the relationshipbetween burnout and depression.
(12:11):
So I think that very term burnout iskind of descriptive of having been
too close to the fire, let's say,um, the fire of stress for too long.
And so that you've been kind of singedby the flame and then the energy or the
emotion that keeps you really engagedand alive at work, it gets diminished.
(12:37):
And, and of course that can alsobe a description for depression.
So I want to try to frame this in the waythat I view depression as being kind of
just in different categories if you will.
Right now I'm not talking so much aboutsymptom categories, but more just about
what's the nature of the depression?
(12:58):
What causes it?
What's under underneath it?
So in my view if you were looking ata hundred people who were given the
diagnostic label of depression, clinicaldepression, let's say they go to their
primary care clinic or maybe even atherapist and whoever they're seeing
(13:20):
has to submit something to insurance.
So they have to have an officialdiagnosis in order for it to be covered.
Let's say that the termis, is loosely depression.
Even though there's some differentsignifiers, different categories.
My own belief is that of those a hundredpeople, there's only about 20 of 'em,
(13:41):
about 20% that I think actually haveclinical depression, as I define it.
The rest of them have somethingthat's called an adjustment
disorder or an adjustment reaction.
And that really means simply that it'sbecause of the stresses that they're
facing, that they're struggling so much.
(14:03):
So this is what happens,I think, with burnout.
Not that we have to label itas depression, but I think that
there are so many things wherethe stress has been present for so
long that a person gets depleted.
Their tank of resilience, theirresilience skills become depleted.
(14:24):
And what happens energetically then isoften you go from the way I was in my
early 30s in work where you're kind offrantic and anxious and feeling this
over activity in your body and your mind.
That can go on for a long time.
I'm testament to that.
You can do that for a long time,but you don't want to do it so long
(14:48):
that you lose the ability to createthat kind of stress or intensity,
because then you're in more trouble.
That's when you get to that pointof your whole system burning out,
if you will, becoming depleted.
Which can literally be true, Ithink, for the adrenal system, the
(15:08):
stress system, when you can no longerbecome stressed and hyper focused
and into fight or flight, even if youshould be, that's a bigger problem.
So we want to get at this early.
We want to kind of come at itproactively and preventively.
So the way I think of what I'll calltrue depression or clinical depression
(15:32):
is oftentimes it's genetic, oftentimesit occurs for no apparent reason, and it
can kind of take on a life of its own.
It can come at times when you don'tsee anything that really triggered it.
That is more of a biological thing.
Now, the distinction isn't the onlyimportant thing, because you might
(15:56):
treat it very similarly, whether it'sthat genetic thing or whether it's more
of a stress related, temporary thing.
You might treat it withmedications, you might treat it with
therapy, with natural therapies.
The big difference is that withanything that's stress related, you
also need to address the root cause.
(16:17):
You need to address the source of thestress or how you're engaging it or do
something to change that dynamic, becauseif you don't, you'll feel better for a
while, but it will just keep coming back.
And this is super important whenit comes to work related stress.
We have to find ways to work aroundit, If we have to work for a living,
(16:39):
and our work is making us sick, we'vegot to find a way to do it differently,
find something different, or takecare of ourselves in a much, you
know, kind of deeper, more fundamentalway, or we simply can't sustain it.
One of those ways is to do our inner work.
And so we're going to do that nextepisode with a kind of practice that
(17:02):
can kind of change the story hereand, and get us back to, you know,
to really feeling and functioningthe way that we want to and need to.
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
(17:25):
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
(17:45):
Please see our terms for more information.
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Well, hi everyone.
Aimee here, just coming in beforethis episode begins to give you a
little intro to this encore episode.
So this was a conversation we had withour Joy Lab community a while back.
And during this, this month ofequanimity, our element of joy,
this conversation around burnoutand depression comes up a lot.
(00:52):
I know a lot of us are burned outand it is a big deal because it
can look a lot like depression.
It can feel a lot like depression.
But there are differences andthere are different ways to
go about caring for yourself.
So listen in for some tips and strategiesto help you get out of burnout and
also make it less likely in the future.
(01:14):
And then in next episode, there willbe a special burnout meditation,
that'll be a perfect followup tothis, a practice to help you feel more
confident in your ability to handlestress and to get out of burnout.
And if you are in the Joy Labprogram, you've already seen this
meditation as an optional infusion.
(01:37):
So I hope that you are able toexperience that if not, here's
a great chance to do it now.
So yes, everybody enjoy this episode.
I hope it serves you well.
So, we're talking about burnout today, notbecause our staff is burned out, right?
But because it's just such an important,timely topic and there's so much
(02:03):
going on about this if you if youstay attuned to the literature or the
even the popular press, you know aboutwhat's going on in the world of work.
This is a really big topic.
It's an especially big topic inhealthcare or maybe it's just
what I'm most, most aware of.
(02:23):
But that's a big part of whywe're talking about it now.
Because there's just so much going on.
. So, I personally have an interestin this topic of burnout and
I'll share a little bit why.
Early in my career, and I know alot of people can relate to this,
(02:45):
certainly health professionals canrelate, but early in one's career the
tendency is just to work too hard.
You know just to work so much.
And for me personally, I've writtenabout this and talked about it before,
but my early work as a psychiatristin the in the way that psychiatry has
(03:09):
evolved was simply not very satisfying.
I just wasn't getting fed enough fromthe work I was doing, and I didn't
feel that the people I was workingwith were really getting their needs
met, even though I felt we had goodrelationships and people got better,
but it just wasn't going far enough.
(03:30):
So this combination for, for the firstseveral years of my career, this would
have been mostly in my 30s, too muchwork, not being very satisfying, and
then I also had young kids, and a lot ofpeople can relate to that, and it also
is not a source of burnout, but it'sjust, it's just an awful lot of work.
(03:52):
And time and effort.
So that combination of things had me justright on the edge of a very early burnout,
or you might say an early midlife crisis.
So at that time in Minnesota, therewas a fellowship offered at the time
(04:13):
it was just for physicians, it wascalled the Bush Medical Fellowship.
Bush Foundation sponsored it.
And it basically gave physiciansin practice an opportunity
to take a sabbatical.
Which sounded awfully good to me.
They had one stipulation though, itwas for mid career physicians and
(04:36):
their definition of that was you hadto be in practice for seven years.
So, after about two years I wasgetting mailings about this fellowship
sabbatical and I just thought oh,jeez, I gotta wait five more years.
And so every year I'd get another mailing.
I'd think not yet, not yet.
(04:57):
And then finally year seven I was on itand I applied immediately and luckily I
was granted the fellowship, which was avery graceful way for me to exit, the work
that wasn't satisfying and shift gearsinto something very different, which is
(05:17):
really very much what I'm still doing.
So I did this fellowship.
It was focused on three things.
One, and you'll see these all kind offitting in with our work here now through
Natural Mental Health and Joy Lab.
So one was to focus on naturaltherapies for, uh, in psychiatry
(05:38):
for depression and anxiety.
Second was to find better ways totalk about and incorporate mindfulness
strategies for mental health conditions.
So obviously a lot of thatshowing up here in Joy Lab.
The third thing was to try to find waysto help other health professionals who
(06:01):
were also on the verge of burnout tosomehow renew their work, their career,
their passion for what they're doing.
And so out of that I started a programwhen I finished my fellowship that
was called the Inner Life of Healers.
And it was really geared towards workingat somewhat of a deeper level, a more
(06:23):
reflective kind of level about how tobuild our resilience, but also to renew
our passion for this beautiful work ofhealthcare, which is truly an honor and
a privilege, but you have to be able tosustain it, and that's not so easy to do.
So, this was a long time ago, youknow, some 25 years or more ago,
(06:49):
and unfortunately, the changesthat have occurred since then, have
largely just made things even harder.
It's made it worse.
There is a real effort amongst healthcare institutions and organizations
to try to address this problem becauseit is, there's a looming crisis, I
(07:09):
think, in terms of people droppingout of the field and so Mayo Clinic
is one of the places that's beenkind of at the forefront of this.
And they did a survey in 2015, that dateis important, 2015, before the pandemic,
and that survey showed that 54 percent ofphysicians were showing signs of burnout.
(07:35):
54 percent over half, and obviously thatnumber hasn't gone away or gotten better
since the pandemic and the lockdownand everything, it has only made things
worse, harder on health professionals.
So, this is obviously not an issuethat's limited to physicians either.
(07:56):
So I just want to share one otherlittle piece of research here.
There was a survey done by the Galluporganization called Gallup Daily that
was looking at employee engagement, nothealthcare, just employees all over.
And in the U. S., they found thatonly about 32 percent of people say
(08:16):
that they are engaged by their work.
Worldwide, the numbers are even worse.
It's only about 13percent who feel engaged.
And what they mean by that, the definitionis to be involved, enthusiastic, and
committed to their work and workplace.
That's what it means to be engaged.
So, what does burnout look like?
(08:39):
The Mayo Clinic, for their survey, thisis how they describe burnout: a lack of
interest, chronic fatigue, unprofessionalbehaviors with patients such as a lack of
empathy, anger, impatience, or irritation.
I've seen those things ina clinic from time to time.
(09:00):
And there was this recent study thatI was mentioning earlier that kind of
prompted us to take this on now waslooking at workers in Norway and here
is how they'd looked at the signs,described the signs that you might be
at risk of burnout (09:13):
feeling mentally exhausted at work, struggling to feel
enthusiastic about your job, havingtrouble concentrating while working,
and sometimes overreacting, emotionally,without meaning to, while you're at work.
Now, these two descriptions, there'sa lot of overlap between them.
(09:36):
There's also a lot of overlapwith depression, isn't there?
You know, lack of interest,loss of energy, emotional
reactivity, trouble concentrating.
Very, very similar to manydescriptions of depression.
I don't think they're the samething exactly and I'm going
to talk more about that later.
(09:57):
I think there is a distinctionthat we can make and it's important
because it makes a difference interms of how we might address it.
But I'm going to turn it overto Aimee now to talk about
this in a little different way.
Yeah, before we talk about thedistinction as well, I think it's
helpful to have a big view of work.
And so I want to sort of highlightthere that burnout can show up in
(10:21):
areas that might not so immediatelybe categorized as a nine to five.
So work can include parenting.
Henry, you noted that early on,caring for an aging parent or spouse
or friend or partner, volunteering.
So there's many waysthat labor can show up.
(10:42):
And then adding any of these or manyof these to perhaps like a usual
work situation, you can see howburnout can surge pretty quickly.
Even this morning, I was havinga conversation while waiting for
our daughter's bus with a friend,and we were talking about how
we're caring for our parents.
(11:03):
I'm caring for my mom, who'sin memory care, and then, you
know, our five year old daughter.
That's the sandwich generationthat's often discussed.
And this is more common than ever.
It's estimated that 25 percentof the US population is sort
of stuck in that sandwich.
And particularly if your divisionof labor in the home is fully
(11:25):
on you, or it's lopsided, you'regetting that brunt of work as well.
These things can really add up.
So I think it's good to think prettylarge about what labor looks like,
and then consider those variablesas possible contributors to burnout.
So also to note, you know, parentingis work, caretaking is work, you can
(11:47):
love it, and it can still burn you out.
So, um, just to help kind of put us inthe ballpark of what we're really faced
with here and what we can do about it.
I want to kind of expand thisto talk about the impact on mood
and kind of the relationshipbetween burnout and depression.
(12:11):
So I think that very term burnout iskind of descriptive of having been
too close to the fire, let's say,um, the fire of stress for too long.
And so that you've been kind of singedby the flame and then the energy or the
emotion that keeps you really engagedand alive at work, it gets diminished.
(12:37):
And, and of course that can alsobe a description for depression.
So I want to try to frame this in the waythat I view depression as being kind of
just in different categories if you will.
Right now I'm not talking so much aboutsymptom categories, but more just about
what's the nature of the depression?
(12:58):
What causes it?
What's under underneath it?
So in my view if you were looking ata hundred people who were given the
diagnostic label of depression, clinicaldepression, let's say they go to their
primary care clinic or maybe even atherapist and whoever they're seeing
(13:20):
has to submit something to insurance.
So they have to have an officialdiagnosis in order for it to be covered.
Let's say that the termis, is loosely depression.
Even though there's some differentsignifiers, different categories.
My own belief is that of those a hundredpeople, there's only about 20 of 'em,
(13:41):
about 20% that I think actually haveclinical depression, as I define it.
The rest of them have somethingthat's called an adjustment
disorder or an adjustment reaction.
And that really means simply that it'sbecause of the stresses that they're
facing, that they're struggling so much.
(14:03):
So this is what happens,I think, with burnout.
Not that we have to label itas depression, but I think that
there are so many things wherethe stress has been present for so
long that a person gets depleted.
Their tank of resilience, theirresilience skills become depleted.
(14:24):
And what happens energetically then isoften you go from the way I was in my
early 30s in work where you're kind offrantic and anxious and feeling this
over activity in your body and your mind.
That can go on for a long time.
I'm testament to that.
You can do that for a long time,but you don't want to do it so long
(14:48):
that you lose the ability to createthat kind of stress or intensity,
because then you're in more trouble.
That's when you get to that pointof your whole system burning out,
if you will, becoming depleted.
Which can literally be true, Ithink, for the adrenal system, the
(15:08):
stress system, when you can no longerbecome stressed and hyper focused
and into fight or flight, even if youshould be, that's a bigger problem.
So we want to get at this early.
We want to kind of come at itproactively and preventively.
So the way I think of what I'll calltrue depression or clinical depression
(15:32):
is oftentimes it's genetic, oftentimesit occurs for no apparent reason, and it
can kind of take on a life of its own.
It can come at times when you don'tsee anything that really triggered it.
That is more of a biological thing.
Now, the distinction isn't the onlyimportant thing, because you might
(15:56):
treat it very similarly, whether it'sthat genetic thing or whether it's more
of a stress related, temporary thing.
You might treat it withmedications, you might treat it with
therapy, with natural therapies.
The big difference is that withanything that's stress related, you
also need to address the root cause.
(16:17):
You need to address the source of thestress or how you're engaging it or do
something to change that dynamic, becauseif you don't, you'll feel better for a
while, but it will just keep coming back.
And this is super important whenit comes to work related stress.
We have to find ways to work aroundit, If we have to work for a living,
(16:39):
and our work is making us sick, we'vegot to find a way to do it differently,
find something different, or takecare of ourselves in a much, you
know, kind of deeper, more fundamentalway, or we simply can't sustain it.
One of those ways is to do our inner work.
And so we're going to do that nextepisode with a kind of practice that
(17:02):
can kind of change the story hereand, and get us back to, you know,
to really feeling and functioningthe way that we want to and need to.
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
(17:25):
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
(17:45):
Please see our terms for more information.
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