January 11, 2023 • 42 mins
In which we (mostly Ilyse) yell about how it is possible to be so very INCORRECT about women choosing to get dressed in the morning.
As always, be sure to visit keepingit101.com for full show notes, homework, transcripts, & more.
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Happy Gregorian new year, nerds. We recorded this episode before the death of Mahsa Amini in the custody of Iran's so-called modesty police. There are, of course, more resources in the shownotes, but we want to especially encourage you to check out the work of journalist Hoda Katebi, the Collective for Black Iranians, and the five-part series on modern Iranian history Profs. Eskandar Sadeghi-Boroujerdi and Golnar Nikpour did for the Dig Podcast.
If you are not yourself Iranian, we also encourage you to NOT make this uprising about your shit. Please don't cut your split ends on social media and call it solidarity, especially if you're not calling on your own country to end its targeting and oppression of Muslims. Iranian activists are leading. It is our duty to listen and learn from them, support them in whatever way they are asking us to support them, and otherwise get the fuck out of their way.
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Keeping It 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion is proud to be part of the Amplify Podcast Network.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Megan (00:00):
INTRO
(00:02):
that whole gregorian calendarjawn. This is a quick note to
say that we recorded thisepisode about Islamic modesty
and pious fashion over thesummer, before Mahsa Amini died
in the custody of Iran’sso-called “modesty police” and
inspired widespread protestswithin and beyond Iran. Her
death is tragic, unjust, andunforgivable. Here’s what we’re
not going to do about it (00:25):
trim our split ends for social media
videos (I see you, JulietteBinoche, and immediately no).
We’re not going to talk overIranians, especially Iranian
women, when they tell us whythey’re protesting and how they
want things to change. We’re notgoing to collapse gender justice
into facile white feminism orAmerican imperialism. We–and by
(00:48):
we I mean specifically whiteAmerican folks but this is good
praxis for all of us–are goingto shut the fuck up and learn
from the folks on the frontlines of the fight, many of whom
have been at this for longerthan I personally have been
alive. We of course have moreresources in the shownotes, but
we want to use this time up topto encourage you to check out
the work of journalist HodaKatebi [@hodakatebi on twitter],
(01:15):
the Collective for BlackIranians
[@collectiveforblackIRanians oninsta], and a five-part series
on the history of modern Iranthat Profs. Eskandar
Sadeghi-Boroujerdi and GolnarNikpour did for the Dig podcast.
As always, thanks for listening,nerds. Here’s the actual
episode.
Ilyse (01:51):
This is keeping it one on one a killjoys introduction to
religion podcast in 2022 2023.
Our work is made possiblethrough both a UVM reach grant
and a loose AAR advancing publicscholarship grant. We're
grateful to live teach andrecord on the current ancestral
and unseeded lands of theAbenaki Wabanaki and ACO Cisco
peoples. As always, you can findmaterial ways to support
indigenous communities on ourwebsite.
Megan (02:13):
What's up nerds? Hello, I'm Meghan Goodwin and scholar
of American religions race andgender and politics.
Ilyse (02:18):
Hi, hello. I'm Elise morgenstein. First a historian
of religion Islam recentlycivilization and South Asia.
Alright Goodwin, how's it going?
Megan (02:26):
Warm and so warm,
Ilyse (02:28):
so warm. It's a soupy mess up here in the Northeast.
Megan (02:34):
Don't care for it. So what better conversation to have
today than a conversation aboutcovering up?
Ilyse (02:41):
Yeah, cuz Today's episode is an incorrect incorrect, where
we kindly but firmly insist thatreligion does more in different
work than you might think itdoes. Because on today, we want
to challenge some basicassumptions about modest
clothing and covering upspecifically the idea that hijab
is oppressive.
Megan (03:03):
This conversation Okay, fine, but like before we didn't
we do this before, like, didn'twe? We did. We did a whole
season to gender and sexualityand what's not the United States
for like a whole train stop andour whole whistlestop tour of
gender and sexuality around theworld like
Ilyse (03:21):
we did this. We did. And yet,
Megan (03:25):
yeah, people are still incorrect about her job. And
people keep asking you about herjob. And you're mad. So, okay,
all right. You're right. You'reright. Of course, you're right.
Ilyse (03:34):
I don't know. Like, I'll never not be mad about it for
regions, mostly because thereare these big things that people
are incorrect about.
Megan (03:45):
What kind of things? What kind of things are people
incorrect about when we thinkspecifically about covering your
head to express a specific kindof relationship with God?
Ilyse (03:55):
I mean, firstly, think it's oppressive, right? Like,
that's just number one. Numberone, it's oppressive. And we're
here to tell you please for thelove of God, stop saying such
stupid stuff. Songs. Just I begof you. Just like our Jihad
episode, there is not a monththat goes by that some well
meaning journalist, member ofthe public or student doesn't
(04:19):
email me to be like, isn't thishorribly incorrect thing? Super
true. And I just, you know,selfishly I want my time to be
imagined is more precious thanthat. Yeah, that's fair. That's
fair. But number two, I thinkalso, folks want to use Muslim
pious fashion, a term that we'regoing to be borrowing throughout
(04:40):
this episode from Liz Abukar aslow hanging fruit. So hijab
ease, are on your collegebrochure to signal diversity.
That's women who wear hijab,they're taught about in any
number of political scienceclasses, usually derisively and
by folks with no experience. Isaid what I said, as examples of
political difference orpolitical signification or case
(05:02):
law around uniforms the militaryor sports so it's like a
teaching tool. Hijab is a lowhanging fruit for a lot of
people but literally no one inlargely white usually sis het
discursive spaces take seriouslythe why of his job. It's assumed
in these places where we use itas a symbol but not as a person
(05:22):
as an idea as a community aslike forced or coerced and when
it isn't, there's this like,noble piety through line about
goodness morality and submissivewomen happening. So Megan, of
course, I'm Big Mad that hijaband hijab ease are
simultaneously hyper visible,hyper signified and then often
(05:42):
left out silenced, erasedentirely.
Megan (05:45):
Right? So they get to be signpost or again and I, we
talked about this in an earlierepisode, but that New York
Times, Maryam duranie talkedabout it as a birdwatching guide
to Muslim women who cover theirobjects for study, not humans
making choices about what to puton their bodies.
Ilyse (06:00):
That's exactly right.
That's probably true. The thingthat bothers me and it might
bother you also, given what Iknow you've written about, is
that pious fashion, women whochoose clothing in a way that
cultivates or signifies theirown piety. So we're talking
about Muslims here, becauseHello, I'm a scholar of Islam,
and y'all can't stop emailing meabout hijab. But I know Meghan,
that you've talked about se LDSor flts fashion, that like for
(06:24):
God's sakes, tan France of queerI queer, I fame, has made an
empire on modesty. Yeah. But ifyou add piety to modesty, then
we get reductive use usually ofwomen or femmes and assumptions
about their men in big quotes,being aggressive in their women,
(06:46):
equally big groats, beingsubmissive, brainwashed or
trapped? And you know what?
That's incorrect. On top ofbeing stupid.
Megan (06:55):
It's stupid in the face.
It's also I mean, it's incorrecton so many different levels. But
it also assumes that piousfashion is the thing that only
women do. Yes, exactly. Men alsodress modestly. It is a
requirement for lots of men whoare religious in lots of
different religions to dressmodestly. So, yeah, there's a
lot of levels of incorrectnesshappening here. Also, like
Ilyse (07:16):
the way that we construct modesty almost always assumes a
feminized body. So even thoughmy partner wears long sleeves
and long pants year round to hisoffice, that's just men's
clothing. That's not modestclothing. That's just men's
clothing. But if I take off asleeve, at any time of year,
(07:38):
that's a body choice. Yeah. Asopposed to just clothes and
putting on the BoD. Yep, yep.
Yeah, so all of this is genderedall of it. TTB. Top to bottom,
gendered.
Megan (07:50):
Yep. Yep. I am forever haunted by that Facebook video I
saw where the woman just keptasking herself if her house was
professional, like, not how shewas dressing her ass, but like,
was it possible to be perceivedas professional with the ass
that God and her mama gave herhaunted? Anyway?
(08:14):
So specifically, today, we'regoing to focus on pious or
modest fashion in Islam. Right.
So how does that relate to herjob? Why, why, why? I know why.
But why are we still talkingabout this?
Ilyse (08:27):
Frankly, we're still talking about this for the
reason that you always want usto talk about stuff, Megan. And
it's because of law. Yeah.
Nation states. I mean, like,yes, it's also about my inbox.
Like, let's be clear, about mynation states around the world
are enacting laws that prevent,particularly women. So the way
that these laws are written areparticularly about women's
bodies from wearing niqab, afull body covering, often with a
(08:50):
face cover of some kind, though,there's variation, and hijab,
hair coverings, head coverings.
Again, there's lots of variationwithin that. In addition to
laws, so laws preventing womenor in forcing women to wear
specific types of islamicatedress. We also know that women
(09:12):
who cover are the most likelytargets of violence in the US
and Canada, as well as the UK,France and Germany. And those
are just the places that I havequick data from. We can add more
to that if I had done morehomework for this episode. But I
did not. But even
Megan (09:31):
the homework we've already done says that women who
signal their relationship to Godon their bodies in ways that
folks who are uninformed, notcorrect. Understand as
oppressive right, are the mostlikely targets of violence and
we know that is even more truewhen those women are brown or
Ilyse (09:52):
black. Yeah, and you know what, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna
pick it up a little bit becauseyou said uninformed, and I don't
know and people are uninformed,will fly Ingrid see? I think
folks see that these are Muslimwomen and harass them on purpose
because of Islamophobia.
Megan (10:09):
Yeah, I think that's accurate. I was trying to be
generous but no, no, you can
Ilyse (10:13):
be generous. I don't have to be because I don't want to be
but I appreciate yourgenerosity, because you're not
wrong. Some people might be butlike, frankly, my five year old
knows better. So yeah, that'sfair NAS men ripping hijabs off
women on the train. They're notbeing ignorant, they're being
racist Fox.
Megan (10:28):
Yeah, that's accurate.
They're being violent. Yes.
Ilyse (10:31):
Hijab is at once.
They're, like this deeplypersonal and cultural choice,
but it's also a public marker ofdifference in white Christian
publics. But it's also a markerof belonging in Muslim
communities or Muslim majoritynation states. Yeah, but here's
the thing again, this is whywe're talking about it. Okay.
It's never not a politicalchoice on top of a personal
(10:51):
religious cultural one.
Megan (10:56):
Oh, that sounds complicated. Can you? Can you
tell me more about how it'spolitical in addition to being
religious, I thought religionwas just about belief is the
thing I say all the time on theinternet. I love it when we
reduce religion to believebecause that's all it is really.
Ilyse (11:10):
I love when I make you say sarcastic things that makes
me so happy because you're soyour teeth are such on edge and
I
Megan (11:18):
gritting my jaw? How could How could what we put on
our heads be a political choiceas well as a religious one,
please, please teach me yourwaist.
Ilyse (11:27):
I mean, I'm gonna go for the low hanging fruit here and
be like we're 21 years post911 911 can drink 911 is saddled
up at the bar, which means weare 21 years into the explicit
anti Muslim hostility, the worldover that manifests in legal
limitations for Muslims, to saynothing of you know, war waged
against Muslims on the premiseof liberating them from their
(11:49):
oppressive men. And we knowthey're oppressive. Because
hijab and niqab, the war against
Megan (11:54):
terror is the war for women's dignity. Laura Bush,
Ilyse (11:59):
right? Like that's the slogan. Which is to say, any
Muslim woman or femme outside ofMuslim majority countries who
chooses to mark themselves asMuslim knows that they are doing
so in a climate of, if notstraight up hate, of suspicion,
surveillance, and eyes, theyknow that they are walking into
(12:21):
spaces that will instantly readthem as Muslim. And in many
spaces, this is knowing fullwell that you're walking into a
wall of judgment that mightresult in violence.
Megan (12:31):
Yeah, I mean, this is also a space where just
Americans are dumb about howthis works to you because and we
talked about this in ourprevious episode, but the women
who are covering and a lot ofthese spaces aren't always
necessarily marking themselvesas Muslim per se, and just
abiding by like local dressconventions. Christian women in
Palestine also cover they're notsaying I am Muslim, they are
(12:53):
saying like, this is how I dressif I want to be treated a
specific way in public, which iscomplicated, and no, I'm not
going down a whole gender hole.
Ilyse (13:05):
But no, we're gonna get there in a second. So let me ask
you a question then. Okay,great, your opinion, what is
pious or modest fashion?
Megan (13:14):
So when I think about pious or modest fashion, I think
about cultures that tell folkshow they should present their
bodies if they wanted to betreated respectfully, or taken
seriously or assumed to be okay,honestly. So like, no shoulders
(13:37):
in shul Sunday, Pastor church,high coverage, looser fit
clothes, in your Gurdwara,Europeans not wearing shorts on
grown man even when it is veryhot. Sometimes when you cross
the border into Vermont, you areissued dense goes and muck
boots, right? It's it is a waythat you show you fit in a
(13:58):
space, right clothing, likeeverything else is culturally
and historically contingent andcomporting your body and
specific ways, signals to folksaround you. How you were hoping
to be received? Yeah. So ifwe're thinking about pious
fashion, specifically, we arethinking about the ways that
(14:19):
folks work within a framework ofpiety of purposeful religious
cultivation and devotion ofright relationship. But like
pious fashion is also aboutlooking good. This is not a fit
that you put on that says, Don'tlook at me, I want to be
invisible. I want to look like amonk. These are Garm halls that
(14:41):
the wearer says, I look cute ashell and also my Luke lines up
with my moral and religious andor cultural values and norms
like I am both right with Godand I am right like this is
correct. So it can be how I haveadorned myself how have
celebrated my temple also helpsme keep my own piety, my own
(15:02):
commitments at the forefront ofmy brain, but not always.
That's, that's it. That's piousfashion. It's sartorial choices
that people are making withtheir religious and their
cultural and their personalvalues and commitments in mind.
And like, let's be real whenwe're talking about this stuff.
We are often talking about womenand femmes because gender bias
and misogyny locates theseconversations on the bodies of
(15:23):
women. And femmes and I know Imentioned this before, but I'm
just gonna say it again. Thisisn't just a Muslim
conversation, and I am foreverhaunted by watching friends in
grad school play that leftbehind game where you convert
people by like shooting pairs atthem, but like, it's still a
shooter game. And when youconvert them by shooting them,
the women's hemlines immediatelydrop and their sleeves get
(15:46):
longer.
Ilyse (15:47):
Just why? Yeah, fucked up about it. I don't know any. I
don't know any of that. And I'mhorrified. Yeah, yeah, I messed
up about it.
Megan (16:02):
What's job what does that have to do with pious fashion?
Ilyse (16:05):
Great question. Hey, thanks, hijab, at least in
Western communities, and Englishspeaking communities in
particular is a catch all forIslamic modest fashion,
especially but not exclusivelyhead coverings for women. Okay,
but like hijab is a particularword that I know you're shocked
Megan means different things indifferent places. So like
(16:26):
culture example, when I lived inTajikistan, hijab was more of
like a bandana or a loosefitting skullcap honestly, for
women. So think, you know,because this is a great place to
talk about the visuals ofsomething. But I want you to
imagine that there's hairvisible always ears out. Maybe
(16:48):
your braid or a plant down yourneck, which is like totally
visible, which is superdifferent from how my Arab
hijabi friends often wear likean under cap and then tie a
scarf over it, where one wouldnever see hair or ears.
Megan (17:03):
Or I still remember to see in like a little bit in her
like, lovely, lovely way. Butmocking sister of the pod
Kathleen M foodie. When she hadto go get her picture taken for
her visa to Iran, she had like,tied her head covering in the
way that grannies do it. And tosee him was like, please, before
you leave, let me show you howto do this so that you don't
look like you're 90, right.
Ilyse (17:25):
And that's like, again, like each place is culturally
conditioned like but like myIndian Muslim friends like like
the ones from India, not IndianAmericans who also have a
different style, often just wrapa longer scarf around their hair
like easy, breezy, beautiful,and to be really assumptive in
short handed here. They seem notto care if hairs poking out.
Like it's kind of like a softdrape, if you will. And I too
(17:48):
have been made fun ofrelentlessly for like tying a
tighter scarf, because it makesme look more conservative. And
they're like you're theAmerican. What are you doing?
Like this is unnecessary? AndI'm like, but I'm meeting your
grandmother, like I need to lookappropriate. And they're like,
Girl No, like you look at Staci.
Right. So I want you to hearthat this word hijab, which we
(18:12):
use to mean like all Muslimcovering forever. It actually
has like local flavors and alsolocal words. So there's other
words for moto stress. Hijab isjust the one that Western media
and Western white folk fixateon. Alongside niqab wear hijab,
again, is a head covering almostexclusively, and in a cab would
be a full face covering and ahead covering and sometimes also
(18:35):
includes the full body covering.
I mean, that's how Muslims woulduse that phrase, but I've seen
the media just like loosenedlazy lucidly. Yes word. Yeah. So
just as like a smattering ofwords that you might have heard
of. There's hijab niqab. Joe BabKumar and burqa burqa bands are
the other thing we see burqa andniqab tend to be linked up
(18:56):
together, and hijab, jilbab andKumar tend to be linked
together. But that's not how allof these cultures and
communities would use them.
Right? So I want us to hear thatwe have already and just asking,
what is hijab collapsed? Likemany, many hundreds and hundreds
of years of history, all of thecultures of the world and really
(19:17):
specific specific local dressingpractices. And I want to be I
want to be like a little bit ofa bitch here for a minute. But
like, I often when I teach thisin my class, and I'm so grumpy
about it, because 911 can drinkand my students are younger than
that and so you should knowbetter right? Like if we're
(19:40):
going to be fixated on Islam weshould know better and yet we
never do and I always put upthis like birdwatching guide,
and it's like an image of howall the different region it's
from a Muslim fashion blogthat's like, here's how to
channel your like super hotcouture Istanbul versus your
like super cutie Cairo look andit's like from like a car smo
right? It's like that kind ofgenre. And I show them that and
(20:01):
they're all like, oh my god,invariably, invariably, it's
like, oh my God, there's so muchto learn. I could never imagine
and then I show them one ofthose pants guides from like an
American Cosmo. That's likeflares, cigarette pants. Cool.
Lots, capris, Bermuda shorts,short shorts, booty short, like,
(20:23):
and I'm like, you fucking knowthis about your own clothing.
Right? Right. You know this, youknow that? Particularly women's
clothing has 1000 differentspecific terminologies? Yeah, we
know somehow what a high risemom boot cut means. Like, you
can't like hit job meanseverything. Get the fuck outta
(20:44):
here.
Megan (20:46):
Yeah, no, that's trash.
That's trash. So
Ilyse (20:48):
I just I want to say out loud that fashion words. There
are many. And that applies toMuslims and Muslim cultures too.
Megan (20:57):
Because they're people shock.
Ilyse (21:09):
So Goodwin, let me ask you a question now that we know
kind of what a hijab is. Andwe're more or less clear on
pious fashion. Why? Why do womenchoose to wear hijab?
Megan (21:19):
I mean, why do women do anything really? I don't. Yes,
just like all of the fuckingreasons that women do anything
ever, right? They make choices.
Those choices are constrained bythe cultures and the time
periods they find themselves in,but they're making choices all
the time. For some folks, it isabout piety. It is about
(21:42):
building right relationship withGod and yourself and your
community and your family. Womenmight choose to cover because
they look good doing it and theywant to look good and great for
them. For some of them, it isabout carving out space to not
be looked at, to say that mywhole body is not for you to
behold and fuck off. Love that.
(22:03):
For some folks, they arepressured into doing it. We get
pressured into doing a whole lotof things. Jesus, my parents
pressured me real hard to like,Oh, don't get married now
babies. I did one of thosethings, but not in ways that
they like, right? So peerpressure, coercion, absolutely a
thing to your family expectingit your culture, expecting it.
feeling better about leavingyour family and being out going
(22:25):
to college or something. That'ssometimes why folks choose to
cover. Yeah, you're just used toit. You're just in the habit as
it were. That's fellas and jokeas well as the truth. It can be
comfortable. Sometimes it justfeels good on your body, she
says artistically. And then alsolike straight up speaking of
coercion, there are legalreasons that people do it. In
(22:46):
the past, Saudi women had tocover Iran currently women have
to cover but like, and we'regoing to talk about homophobia
far in the homework. But like inIran, women were also forced to
uncover as part of like asecular modernization. So is it
about what's on their headersheard about controlling women's
bodies? I think you know theanswer to that, sometimes for
legal protest. In the past,Turkish women have covered and
(23:08):
uncovered for protest reasons.
And in Quebec, and in theNetherlands and France currently
covering is complicated, whichis particularly fucked up in a
time of COVID, where folks hadbeen compelled to cover their
faces for public health reasons,but we're punished for doing it
for religious reasons.
Everything is a mess. And peopleare not great to each other,
particularly when you'redifferent. Yeah, that's why
(23:31):
women might choose to covertheir heads.
Ilyse (23:35):
Yeah, I want to take like a pause for two seconds on the
feminism one because this alwaysbreaks a particular audience
member of a particular age.
Because we have been so taughtin the United States to see
hijab as oppressive that whenfolks in their own voices like
there's this clip I have that Ialways play where it's like a
(23:56):
bunch of young college aged orlike 20s Muslim women saying
things like, yeah, I wear thisbecause I'm a raging feminist
and this is awesome. And this iswhere like, white women of a
certain age like short out, liketruly you're like, Okay, Boomer
shot, there's like, be quiet. Iknow, like you are, you have
shorted out, we will reboot youin a second. But like, let me
(24:19):
explain this through your gunmaximum under yeah, like I just
like, I'm aware that when youhave been taught that this thing
is oppressive. And when you arepart of like a burn your bra, I
can show my shoulders in shulgeneration that this might feel
untrue to you. But the idea, Ijust want to underline what you
said Megan, which is the I wearhijab I cover I wear loose
(24:42):
fitting garments, so that Icontrol what men have access to
see, yeah, I'm going to use menhere because that's often who
we're protecting again, right?
The male gaze is often the onethat we are worried about. I
want you to hear that within afeminist context that doesn't
not mean all Muslim feministscover or at all, but there are
(25:03):
plenty of Muslims who cover whothen identify as feminist or
egalitarian or like politics, orlike radical because this is
about moving in the world. It isnot about the clothing having an
inherent value.
Megan (25:20):
Right? Well, and we have folks, Muslim women and other
women of religious convictiontalking about feeling empowered,
that they're taking their bodiesback. I use an article in class
that woman who started coveringwhen she went to college, also
said it helped her rethink herrelationship to food and
disordered eating because shedidn't feel like she was on
(25:40):
display or for publicconsumption all the time. I
also, I have a clip that I liketo use that I think we've
assigned before, but it's theniqab bitches in France, after
one of countless stupid attemptsto tell Muslim women how they
should be in public wherethey're running around in the
cops, right? So they're, they'recovered to the waist with just
(26:00):
their eyes poking out. Andthey're running around in booty
shorts and like high high heelsin front of public offices and
government buildings and theprotest there is Why is it okay
for me to uncover like this, butnot to say I don't want my body
to be for public consumption.
Yeah. Anyway, feminism iscomplicated, and maybe doesn't
always look like what you thinkit should look like.
(26:28):
I have a question for you. Hitme. How can people how can our
beloved nerds and the folks thatthey're going to talk about this
with later? How can they be lessincorrect about covering them?
Ilyse (26:42):
For starters, care less, care less about what others are
wearing? Unless you want tothrow someone a badass
compliment? Like, truly, if youcan let men with big Johnson T
shirts live in peace? I'mcurious. Like just curious if we
could let a bitch have somefabric on her head without being
dicks about it. Like I? I'm overit. Like I just it's just
(27:03):
clothing. Yeah, yeah,
Megan (27:06):
yeah, sometimes we put stuff on. It's not that
complicated. Also, I'm justgoing to I'm going to add in my
thing here, which like personwearing a piece of cloth on
their head, however significantit is or is not to them does not
equal brainwashing add abrainwashing as we have
discussed at length on this spotis not a thing. But like also,
(27:28):
what if we take women seriously,and trusts that they dress
themselves in the morning? Onpurpose? What if they make
choices and are adults?
Ilyse (27:41):
And I would add to that, you should also ask whether or
not you're a trusted person.
Because I have been in tons ofMuslim women's spaces where like
when it is just gals, or folksidentifying as gals, the
headscarves come off, becausethat's a space for that feels
comfortable. And if you're not aperson for whom that feels
comfortable, that's on you, bro,that's not Muslim women's
(28:03):
problem, be safer. So yeah, besafer. And I'll add for my final
like, what can we do to be lessincorrect? Let's stop thinking
that a person in modest clothingstops thinking at their modesty
or their piety. So like, Ipromise that women who cover are
far more than their headscarvesor their niqab or they're a
(28:26):
buyer or their salwaar or theirburqa, and like I'm mixing in
names of clothing styles, on topof things that we might consider
Islamic fashion on purpose,because women are not just their
jeans. I just like, what if weimagined that a hijab II was
more than her hijab likefrankly, even describing women
(28:47):
as hijab ease is a conversationwe have in my classes, like, why
are we comfortable? With like,referring to group of women is
like, Yo, head scarves? Yeah,that's not great. And like,
listen, lots of hijab isreferred to themselves as
hijabi. So I don't want to liketake away that agency, but I
also want to name that like, Idon't know, it's like when my
(29:07):
dad would like see, like, thoseskirts, like that's like really
messed up. That's like early 19rods or something. And like,
what if we don't do
Megan (29:17):
it? Like Guys and Dolls level? Yeah, well,
Ilyse (29:20):
oh, so nicely, nicely, please sit down. Let's talk
about some standard.
Megan (29:28):
What are the states? You can't just give me the musical
theater cue and No, no,
Ilyse (29:33):
sorry, I queued you up and I didn't I did not think of
the consequences.
Megan (29:36):
You didn't think it through? It's okay. What are the
stakes? Well, what if what if wetake women seriously? What if
their clothes and their choicesall are theirs to make? And they
are agents who get to make theirown decisions and probably do
so. On purpose? Yeah, like alsofor saying that, I'm curious
(30:02):
about the woman who gets up inthe morning and for whom it is
important to cover becausethat's how she wants to present
herself to the world and to hercommunity and to God. But also
she didn't spend like an hourthinking about this is how I
will signify it like she got upand she got dressed. Sometimes
it's also just a thing that youdid without thinking about it
(30:23):
that much in maybe stop makingsuch a big fucking deal about
everything all the time, and letwomen live. Yeah, I would like
also very much encouraged us totake the patriarchy seriously,
like if you are so angry thatwomen want or need to avoid a
male gaze. Maybe take that shitup with men, because it's their
(30:46):
eyeballs, and their rapey selvesthat need correction, and also
just consumer culture that sayswomen's bodies are to be
consumed and devoured. I hatethat. And like as, as we're
saying this too, I want tospecify again, obviously, not
all perpetrators of sexualviolence are men, but the
(31:08):
numbers are not on your sides,they're friends. And I want to
emphasize that when we'retalking about folks who cover
doing so, to control theirbodies, to claim their bodies
for themselves, that you shouldbe able to walk the streets
wearing whatever you want, ornothing at all and still be
safe. What and how you'redressing your body does not give
(31:30):
other people permission to touchor hurt you. And thinking like
that
Ilyse (31:35):
is also gross. Nor does a full body burqa protect you.
Because it's not as if Muslimwomen who cover are immune to
sexual violence exactly like thethe logic here is just
patriarchy. And so what if,
Megan (31:53):
well, if we don't do that, right, well, and I've also
seen that kind of rhetoricweaponized against survivors of
sexual assault who are alsoMuslim and like, well, if you
had covered, then surelyproperly, that's not
Ilyse (32:04):
right. That's not how this works. It is not.
Megan (32:08):
And then women who cover are also visible targets for
perpetrators police and laws. Soagain, 16 nation states are
currently banning burkas, again,16 nation states have said that
Muslims cannot choose their ownclothing that Muslim women are
not adults who can make choicesabout what they put on their
bodies, to nation states requirecovering Iran and Afghanistan,
(32:29):
which proves the same thingcitizens cannot choose their
clothes, and other still havepartial bands like government
employees not being able to wearhijab or niqab and we've we've
got a list in the show notes.
Ilyse (32:40):
Yeah. I also want to I want to underline this legal
state here because that's wherewe started and I we're gonna
wrap up but that's where we'regonna end to because this is not
just about like women be doingthings for themselves making
choices getting dressed. This isnot like a shear Horwitz
clothing montage moment wherelike, all choices are equal.
(33:02):
These are politicized choices inde facto industry ways. And I'm
very excited about andfrustrated by the legal things
because there's all of theselaws happening around the world.
So as you just said, 16 nationstates, Ban burkas, and then
there are, I think, dozens morethat have partial bands or
(33:23):
contextual bands on either hijabor niqab. But then like a lot of
those are located in white,predominantly Christian,
European and American, Europeanand North American states. But
there's also laws in the Indianstate of Karnataka that made
hijab illegal for students.
These are Hindu, right Hindufundamentalist Hindu nationalist
laws that erupted in violencenot that long ago. In the state,
(33:46):
just 40 minutes to my NorthQuebec. There's an anti niqab
and hijab law making Muslimwomen who cover illegal in
public service jobs. So you wantto be a teacher you want to be a
government employee? Nope. Sowhat does it mean that we are
writing out? Muslim women andSikh men and in some cases, Jews
(34:08):
from working in any governmentsector? What are we teaching
children if we are teaching themthat Muslims are not suitable to
be teachers
Megan (34:22):
in an alleged democracy,
Ilyse (34:24):
right, and an alleged destiny, oh, also in an alleged
liberal country? Mm hmm. Okay.
France also disallows hijabsinto cubs, but specifically
won't let girls under the age of18 cover. So your childhood
choices which normally would beadjudicated by your guardian, or
(34:45):
parent or not, because France,one of the most racist places
ever has a real problem withMuslims. And it does does not
trust Muslim parents to raiseMuslim children? Or, as a friend
of mine once said, It does trustMuslim parents to raise Muslim
(35:08):
children, which is why it doesnot allow it work. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And there's also all ofthese other places where hijab
has been banned either partiallyor not in the United States, I
lost track. At one point, therewere 17 states in the United
States that had put forth eitheran anti Sharia or an anti hijab
ban. And the Sharia was almostalways tied to these ideas of
(35:29):
jihad and hijab, like visibleMuslim notice. So I want y'all
to hear that getting hijabwrong. Getting why people cover
wrong is not just annoying,because it's like, bad
interpersonal, or like badinterfaith politics. It has
legal and physical and violentramifications specifically
(35:50):
written on the bodies of womenidentifying Muslims. Thanks, I
hate it. So I think I also wantto just say, like when we
politicize this garment, it'sbad news, right? But you're also
incorrect to think that Muslimand women and femmes are just
like being herded. There'sprotests and demonstrations,
(36:10):
both against hijab bans or in acab bands, but also against
hijab and niqab mandates. Thereare moments of solidarity
between and among Muslimcommunities. I think there are
some ill advised hitch like whatis it like to wear hijab
solidarity white womenmovements? Like I think that's a
problem, but that's like aseparate issue. There are
conversations about how and whenand why one might cover so quite
(36:32):
a lot of my students make thatchoice based on situations, but
reducing Muslim women to a hijaband then calling that hijab
oppressive or backward, isincorrect. And it's racist as
fuck. And it authorizes violencelike the entire war on terror. I
hate it, as you should. So stopemailing us about it. We're sick
(36:57):
of it.
Megan (37:00):
We are we're very tired and sweaty.
Ilyse (37:04):
Don't pack up yet nerds.
You got homework. Don't work.
Why don't work. All right. Sowe've got a convert, like the
conversation has a podcast onNiCad bans in Canada, and how
those bands are tied directly toIslamophobic hate crimes. So we
are linking up the law and theviolence right off the bat. It's
a pretty good podcast. There's alot of news that I'll put in the
(37:25):
show notes also. But book wise,we want to recommend where we
started Liz view cars. Piousfashion is a really great book
with Harvard University Press.
And then she's got a ton ofrelated public scholarship.
There's a podcast with BuildingBridges out of Georgetown, and
that's really listened to andvery very assignable. And Liz
also has a an article calledDear Nancy Pelosi hijab is not a
(37:45):
hat, which I find very cheeky.
There is Sahar mares. What isveiling? Which is a book from
UNC press, super easy to read,very consumable for the public.
James libeled and Timothy grosshave a really important book on
(38:06):
Islamic veiling and shinjang.
The political and societalstruggle to define Uighur female
adornment. Sorry, that's anarticle not a book but the
Chinese government is doing anethnic cleansing of Muslim
leader is on is barring Muslimsfrom wearing head coverings.
These are all related things soI want you to get a big picture.
And then there's a flock as yourAziz article, the veiling issue
(38:29):
in 20th century Iran and fashionand society religion and
government. So we're thinkingabout it as fashion. And then
there's the classic Houma hoodFarr's the veil in their minds
and on our heads the persistenceof colonial images of Muslim
women. It's old, but it's great.
Yep. And then my favorite mediafor you is rap my hijab. Hadar
(38:51):
she's a she's like a cool musicartist slash rappers. Yeah. What
do you got Meghan? Anything.
Megan (38:59):
I mean, I'm just like, I'm excited about the video. I
use it in class and you just geta sense of how many different
ways there are to cover andwho's covering and again, just
the like, beautiful fashion ofit rather than just having it
reduced to kind of dour modesty,like, No, these are gorgeous,
gorgeous people. So KaylaWheeler did some amazing writing
about Black Muslim women's piousfashion first Pella square, I
(39:22):
will get you a link for that. Wetogether wrote a piece for
Religion Dispatches about astars and Stripe hijab on
ripples drag race and well theracism that happened after that.
Which reveals as the title says,America's troubling relationship
to gender ethnicity and that inquotes, religion. Jeff Goldblum
(39:43):
did a racism to our girl Jackieand we did not like it so you
can read us yelling about that.
I have a piece in what we bothhave pieces in Tina. Hell is
great Routledge Handbook ofIslam and gender. But my piece
on gender, race and AmericanIslamophobia specifically talk
about an image of a Muslim womancovering being used to protest
(40:03):
the inauguration of the 45th.
President, it showed up in theWashington Post. She is wearing
a Stars and Stripes her job, itwas presented as like a bastion
of liberal values. And I'm usingliberal here very deliberately.
And a lot of folks wereconcerned about the American
imperialism of that image. Soand Shepard Fairey basically
(40:29):
didn't care and isn't Yeah,great. So anyway, that's in the
article. And then I also have apiece in the Journal of the
American Academy of Religioncalled unmasking Islamophobia,
anti Muslim hostility and aswhite supremacy in the
roundtable that Laura Mackayedited that came out of our AR
roundtable and Judith Watsonfalsework. But I was
(40:52):
specifically in that piecelooking at anti Klan anti
masking laws in Georgia. And theway that local lawmakers were
trying to use them to basicallymake it harder for Muslim women
who cover to be in public. Sospoilers, but the way that these
laws were trying to be written,it would have been fine to drive
(41:13):
around dressed as Santa Claus,even if your whole face is
covered, but not if you're aMuslim woman engaging in a pious
fashion. So everybody lovesSanta. Everybody loves Santa.
It's fine. It's not fine. DemonKlaus. Anyway,
Ilyse (41:27):
shout out to EV Wolf, Rachel's IEF and Juliana Finch
the key I want to one team whosework makes his pa accessible and
therefore awesome listenablesocial media mobile among many
other things for which we aregrateful.
Megan (41:37):
Sure, you can find Meghan that's me on Twitter at mpg PhD
and Elise at pr o f IR M F. Youcan also find the show at
keeping it underscore 101 Findthe website at keeping it one on
one.com Peep the Insta if youwant to check us out on tick
tock I guess and drop us arating or review in your pod
catcher of choice with thatpeace out nerds Your Honor, it's
(42:00):
on the syllabus
Unknown (42:28):
don't don't make you sweat
don't feel too tight your wityour hair dryer that your hair
how long your hair isyou need to get your life you
only see your uncle steadyworking let dental you pop in
and run your mouth like thetrend. Don't let your exotic
vacation number with yourfascination no need that
paper paper paper if you wanteducation
INTRO
(00:02):
that whole gregorian calendarjawn. This is a quick note to
say that we recorded thisepisode about Islamic modesty
and pious fashion over thesummer, before Mahsa Amini died
in the custody of Iran’sso-called “modesty police” and
inspired widespread protestswithin and beyond Iran. Her
death is tragic, unjust, andunforgivable. Here’s what we’re
not going to do about it (00:25):
trim our split ends for social media
videos (I see you, JulietteBinoche, and immediately no).
We’re not going to talk overIranians, especially Iranian
women, when they tell us whythey’re protesting and how they
want things to change. We’re notgoing to collapse gender justice
into facile white feminism orAmerican imperialism. We–and by
(00:48):
we I mean specifically whiteAmerican folks but this is good
praxis for all of us–are goingto shut the fuck up and learn
from the folks on the frontlines of the fight, many of whom
have been at this for longerthan I personally have been
alive. We of course have moreresources in the shownotes, but
we want to use this time up topto encourage you to check out
the work of journalist HodaKatebi [@hodakatebi on twitter],
(01:15):
the Collective for BlackIranians
[@collectiveforblackIRanians oninsta], and a five-part series
on the history of modern Iranthat Profs. Eskandar
Sadeghi-Boroujerdi and GolnarNikpour did for the Dig podcast.
As always, thanks for listening,nerds. Here’s the actual
episode.
Ilyse (01:51):
This is keeping it one on one a killjoys introduction to
religion podcast in 2022 2023.
Our work is made possiblethrough both a UVM reach grant
and a loose AAR advancing publicscholarship grant. We're
grateful to live teach andrecord on the current ancestral
and unseeded lands of theAbenaki Wabanaki and ACO Cisco
peoples. As always, you can findmaterial ways to support
indigenous communities on ourwebsite.
Megan (02:13):
What's up nerds? Hello, I'm Meghan Goodwin and scholar
of American religions race andgender and politics.
Ilyse (02:18):
Hi, hello. I'm Elise morgenstein. First a historian
of religion Islam recentlycivilization and South Asia.
Alright Goodwin, how's it going?
Megan (02:26):
Warm and so warm,
Ilyse (02:28):
so warm. It's a soupy mess up here in the Northeast.
Megan (02:34):
Don't care for it. So what better conversation to have
today than a conversation aboutcovering up?
Ilyse (02:41):
Yeah, cuz Today's episode is an incorrect incorrect, where
we kindly but firmly insist thatreligion does more in different
work than you might think itdoes. Because on today, we want
to challenge some basicassumptions about modest
clothing and covering upspecifically the idea that hijab
is oppressive.
Megan (03:03):
This conversation Okay, fine, but like before we didn't
we do this before, like, didn'twe? We did. We did a whole
season to gender and sexualityand what's not the United States
for like a whole train stop andour whole whistlestop tour of
gender and sexuality around theworld like
Ilyse (03:21):
we did this. We did. And yet,
Megan (03:25):
yeah, people are still incorrect about her job. And
people keep asking you about herjob. And you're mad. So, okay,
all right. You're right. You'reright. Of course, you're right.
Ilyse (03:34):
I don't know. Like, I'll never not be mad about it for
regions, mostly because thereare these big things that people
are incorrect about.
Megan (03:45):
What kind of things? What kind of things are people
incorrect about when we thinkspecifically about covering your
head to express a specific kindof relationship with God?
Ilyse (03:55):
I mean, firstly, think it's oppressive, right? Like,
that's just number one. Numberone, it's oppressive. And we're
here to tell you please for thelove of God, stop saying such
stupid stuff. Songs. Just I begof you. Just like our Jihad
episode, there is not a monththat goes by that some well
meaning journalist, member ofthe public or student doesn't
(04:19):
email me to be like, isn't thishorribly incorrect thing? Super
true. And I just, you know,selfishly I want my time to be
imagined is more precious thanthat. Yeah, that's fair. That's
fair. But number two, I thinkalso, folks want to use Muslim
pious fashion, a term that we'regoing to be borrowing throughout
(04:40):
this episode from Liz Abukar aslow hanging fruit. So hijab
ease, are on your collegebrochure to signal diversity.
That's women who wear hijab,they're taught about in any
number of political scienceclasses, usually derisively and
by folks with no experience. Isaid what I said, as examples of
political difference orpolitical signification or case
(05:02):
law around uniforms the militaryor sports so it's like a
teaching tool. Hijab is a lowhanging fruit for a lot of
people but literally no one inlargely white usually sis het
discursive spaces take seriouslythe why of his job. It's assumed
in these places where we use itas a symbol but not as a person
(05:22):
as an idea as a community aslike forced or coerced and when
it isn't, there's this like,noble piety through line about
goodness morality and submissivewomen happening. So Megan, of
course, I'm Big Mad that hijaband hijab ease are
simultaneously hyper visible,hyper signified and then often
(05:42):
left out silenced, erasedentirely.
Megan (05:45):
Right? So they get to be signpost or again and I, we
talked about this in an earlierepisode, but that New York
Times, Maryam duranie talkedabout it as a birdwatching guide
to Muslim women who cover theirobjects for study, not humans
making choices about what to puton their bodies.
Ilyse (06:00):
That's exactly right.
That's probably true. The thingthat bothers me and it might
bother you also, given what Iknow you've written about, is
that pious fashion, women whochoose clothing in a way that
cultivates or signifies theirown piety. So we're talking
about Muslims here, becauseHello, I'm a scholar of Islam,
and y'all can't stop emailing meabout hijab. But I know Meghan,
that you've talked about se LDSor flts fashion, that like for
(06:24):
God's sakes, tan France of queerI queer, I fame, has made an
empire on modesty. Yeah. But ifyou add piety to modesty, then
we get reductive use usually ofwomen or femmes and assumptions
about their men in big quotes,being aggressive in their women,
(06:46):
equally big groats, beingsubmissive, brainwashed or
trapped? And you know what?
That's incorrect. On top ofbeing stupid.
Megan (06:55):
It's stupid in the face.
It's also I mean, it's incorrecton so many different levels. But
it also assumes that piousfashion is the thing that only
women do. Yes, exactly. Men alsodress modestly. It is a
requirement for lots of men whoare religious in lots of
different religions to dressmodestly. So, yeah, there's a
lot of levels of incorrectnesshappening here. Also, like
Ilyse (07:16):
the way that we construct modesty almost always assumes a
feminized body. So even thoughmy partner wears long sleeves
and long pants year round to hisoffice, that's just men's
clothing. That's not modestclothing. That's just men's
clothing. But if I take off asleeve, at any time of year,
(07:38):
that's a body choice. Yeah. Asopposed to just clothes and
putting on the BoD. Yep, yep.
Yeah, so all of this is genderedall of it. TTB. Top to bottom,
gendered.
Megan (07:50):
Yep. Yep. I am forever haunted by that Facebook video I
saw where the woman just keptasking herself if her house was
professional, like, not how shewas dressing her ass, but like,
was it possible to be perceivedas professional with the ass
that God and her mama gave herhaunted? Anyway?
(08:14):
So specifically, today, we'regoing to focus on pious or
modest fashion in Islam. Right.
So how does that relate to herjob? Why, why, why? I know why.
But why are we still talkingabout this?
Ilyse (08:27):
Frankly, we're still talking about this for the
reason that you always want usto talk about stuff, Megan. And
it's because of law. Yeah.
Nation states. I mean, like,yes, it's also about my inbox.
Like, let's be clear, about mynation states around the world
are enacting laws that prevent,particularly women. So the way
that these laws are written areparticularly about women's
bodies from wearing niqab, afull body covering, often with a
(08:50):
face cover of some kind, though,there's variation, and hijab,
hair coverings, head coverings.
Again, there's lots of variationwithin that. In addition to
laws, so laws preventing womenor in forcing women to wear
specific types of islamicatedress. We also know that women
(09:12):
who cover are the most likelytargets of violence in the US
and Canada, as well as the UK,France and Germany. And those
are just the places that I havequick data from. We can add more
to that if I had done morehomework for this episode. But I
did not. But even
Megan (09:31):
the homework we've already done says that women who
signal their relationship to Godon their bodies in ways that
folks who are uninformed, notcorrect. Understand as
oppressive right, are the mostlikely targets of violence and
we know that is even more truewhen those women are brown or
Ilyse (09:52):
black. Yeah, and you know what, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna
pick it up a little bit becauseyou said uninformed, and I don't
know and people are uninformed,will fly Ingrid see? I think
folks see that these are Muslimwomen and harass them on purpose
because of Islamophobia.
Megan (10:09):
Yeah, I think that's accurate. I was trying to be
generous but no, no, you can
Ilyse (10:13):
be generous. I don't have to be because I don't want to be
but I appreciate yourgenerosity, because you're not
wrong. Some people might be butlike, frankly, my five year old
knows better. So yeah, that'sfair NAS men ripping hijabs off
women on the train. They're notbeing ignorant, they're being
racist Fox.
Megan (10:28):
Yeah, that's accurate.
They're being violent. Yes.
Ilyse (10:31):
Hijab is at once.
They're, like this deeplypersonal and cultural choice,
but it's also a public marker ofdifference in white Christian
publics. But it's also a markerof belonging in Muslim
communities or Muslim majoritynation states. Yeah, but here's
the thing again, this is whywe're talking about it. Okay.
It's never not a politicalchoice on top of a personal
(10:51):
religious cultural one.
Megan (10:56):
Oh, that sounds complicated. Can you? Can you
tell me more about how it'spolitical in addition to being
religious, I thought religionwas just about belief is the
thing I say all the time on theinternet. I love it when we
reduce religion to believebecause that's all it is really.
Ilyse (11:10):
I love when I make you say sarcastic things that makes
me so happy because you're soyour teeth are such on edge and
I
Megan (11:18):
gritting my jaw? How could How could what we put on
our heads be a political choiceas well as a religious one,
please, please teach me yourwaist.
Ilyse (11:27):
I mean, I'm gonna go for the low hanging fruit here and
be like we're 21 years post911 911 can drink 911 is saddled
up at the bar, which means weare 21 years into the explicit
anti Muslim hostility, the worldover that manifests in legal
limitations for Muslims, to saynothing of you know, war waged
against Muslims on the premiseof liberating them from their
(11:49):
oppressive men. And we knowthey're oppressive. Because
hijab and niqab, the war against
Megan (11:54):
terror is the war for women's dignity. Laura Bush,
Ilyse (11:59):
right? Like that's the slogan. Which is to say, any
Muslim woman or femme outside ofMuslim majority countries who
chooses to mark themselves asMuslim knows that they are doing
so in a climate of, if notstraight up hate, of suspicion,
surveillance, and eyes, theyknow that they are walking into
(12:21):
spaces that will instantly readthem as Muslim. And in many
spaces, this is knowing fullwell that you're walking into a
wall of judgment that mightresult in violence.
Megan (12:31):
Yeah, I mean, this is also a space where just
Americans are dumb about howthis works to you because and we
talked about this in ourprevious episode, but the women
who are covering and a lot ofthese spaces aren't always
necessarily marking themselvesas Muslim per se, and just
abiding by like local dressconventions. Christian women in
Palestine also cover they're notsaying I am Muslim, they are
(12:53):
saying like, this is how I dressif I want to be treated a
specific way in public, which iscomplicated, and no, I'm not
going down a whole gender hole.
Ilyse (13:05):
But no, we're gonna get there in a second. So let me ask
you a question then. Okay,great, your opinion, what is
pious or modest fashion?
Megan (13:14):
So when I think about pious or modest fashion, I think
about cultures that tell folkshow they should present their
bodies if they wanted to betreated respectfully, or taken
seriously or assumed to be okay,honestly. So like, no shoulders
(13:37):
in shul Sunday, Pastor church,high coverage, looser fit
clothes, in your Gurdwara,Europeans not wearing shorts on
grown man even when it is veryhot. Sometimes when you cross
the border into Vermont, you areissued dense goes and muck
boots, right? It's it is a waythat you show you fit in a
(13:58):
space, right clothing, likeeverything else is culturally
and historically contingent andcomporting your body and
specific ways, signals to folksaround you. How you were hoping
to be received? Yeah. So ifwe're thinking about pious
fashion, specifically, we arethinking about the ways that
(14:19):
folks work within a framework ofpiety of purposeful religious
cultivation and devotion ofright relationship. But like
pious fashion is also aboutlooking good. This is not a fit
that you put on that says, Don'tlook at me, I want to be
invisible. I want to look like amonk. These are Garm halls that
(14:41):
the wearer says, I look cute ashell and also my Luke lines up
with my moral and religious andor cultural values and norms
like I am both right with Godand I am right like this is
correct. So it can be how I haveadorned myself how have
celebrated my temple also helpsme keep my own piety, my own
(15:02):
commitments at the forefront ofmy brain, but not always.
That's, that's it. That's piousfashion. It's sartorial choices
that people are making withtheir religious and their
cultural and their personalvalues and commitments in mind.
And like, let's be real whenwe're talking about this stuff.
We are often talking about womenand femmes because gender bias
and misogyny locates theseconversations on the bodies of
(15:23):
women. And femmes and I know Imentioned this before, but I'm
just gonna say it again. Thisisn't just a Muslim
conversation, and I am foreverhaunted by watching friends in
grad school play that leftbehind game where you convert
people by like shooting pairs atthem, but like, it's still a
shooter game. And when youconvert them by shooting them,
the women's hemlines immediatelydrop and their sleeves get
(15:46):
longer.
Ilyse (15:47):
Just why? Yeah, fucked up about it. I don't know any. I
don't know any of that. And I'mhorrified. Yeah, yeah, I messed
up about it.
Megan (16:02):
What's job what does that have to do with pious fashion?
Ilyse (16:05):
Great question. Hey, thanks, hijab, at least in
Western communities, and Englishspeaking communities in
particular is a catch all forIslamic modest fashion,
especially but not exclusivelyhead coverings for women. Okay,
but like hijab is a particularword that I know you're shocked
Megan means different things indifferent places. So like
(16:26):
culture example, when I lived inTajikistan, hijab was more of
like a bandana or a loosefitting skullcap honestly, for
women. So think, you know,because this is a great place to
talk about the visuals ofsomething. But I want you to
imagine that there's hairvisible always ears out. Maybe
(16:48):
your braid or a plant down yourneck, which is like totally
visible, which is superdifferent from how my Arab
hijabi friends often wear likean under cap and then tie a
scarf over it, where one wouldnever see hair or ears.
Megan (17:03):
Or I still remember to see in like a little bit in her
like, lovely, lovely way. Butmocking sister of the pod
Kathleen M foodie. When she hadto go get her picture taken for
her visa to Iran, she had like,tied her head covering in the
way that grannies do it. And tosee him was like, please, before
you leave, let me show you howto do this so that you don't
look like you're 90, right.
Ilyse (17:25):
And that's like, again, like each place is culturally
conditioned like but like myIndian Muslim friends like like
the ones from India, not IndianAmericans who also have a
different style, often just wrapa longer scarf around their hair
like easy, breezy, beautiful,and to be really assumptive in
short handed here. They seem notto care if hairs poking out.
Like it's kind of like a softdrape, if you will. And I too
(17:48):
have been made fun ofrelentlessly for like tying a
tighter scarf, because it makesme look more conservative. And
they're like you're theAmerican. What are you doing?
Like this is unnecessary? AndI'm like, but I'm meeting your
grandmother, like I need to lookappropriate. And they're like,
Girl No, like you look at Staci.
Right. So I want you to hearthat this word hijab, which we
(18:12):
use to mean like all Muslimcovering forever. It actually
has like local flavors and alsolocal words. So there's other
words for moto stress. Hijab isjust the one that Western media
and Western white folk fixateon. Alongside niqab wear hijab,
again, is a head covering almostexclusively, and in a cab would
be a full face covering and ahead covering and sometimes also
(18:35):
includes the full body covering.
I mean, that's how Muslims woulduse that phrase, but I've seen
the media just like loosenedlazy lucidly. Yes word. Yeah. So
just as like a smattering ofwords that you might have heard
of. There's hijab niqab. Joe BabKumar and burqa burqa bands are
the other thing we see burqa andniqab tend to be linked up
(18:56):
together, and hijab, jilbab andKumar tend to be linked
together. But that's not how allof these cultures and
communities would use them.
Right? So I want us to hear thatwe have already and just asking,
what is hijab collapsed? Likemany, many hundreds and hundreds
of years of history, all of thecultures of the world and really
(19:17):
specific specific local dressingpractices. And I want to be I
want to be like a little bit ofa bitch here for a minute. But
like, I often when I teach thisin my class, and I'm so grumpy
about it, because 911 can drinkand my students are younger than
that and so you should knowbetter right? Like if we're
(19:40):
going to be fixated on Islam weshould know better and yet we
never do and I always put upthis like birdwatching guide,
and it's like an image of howall the different region it's
from a Muslim fashion blogthat's like, here's how to
channel your like super hotcouture Istanbul versus your
like super cutie Cairo look andit's like from like a car smo
right? It's like that kind ofgenre. And I show them that and
(20:01):
they're all like, oh my god,invariably, invariably, it's
like, oh my God, there's so muchto learn. I could never imagine
and then I show them one ofthose pants guides from like an
American Cosmo. That's likeflares, cigarette pants. Cool.
Lots, capris, Bermuda shorts,short shorts, booty short, like,
(20:23):
and I'm like, you fucking knowthis about your own clothing.
Right? Right. You know this, youknow that? Particularly women's
clothing has 1000 differentspecific terminologies? Yeah, we
know somehow what a high risemom boot cut means. Like, you
can't like hit job meanseverything. Get the fuck outta
(20:44):
here.
Megan (20:46):
Yeah, no, that's trash.
That's trash. So
Ilyse (20:48):
I just I want to say out loud that fashion words. There
are many. And that applies toMuslims and Muslim cultures too.
Megan (20:57):
Because they're people shock.
Ilyse (21:09):
So Goodwin, let me ask you a question now that we know
kind of what a hijab is. Andwe're more or less clear on
pious fashion. Why? Why do womenchoose to wear hijab?
Megan (21:19):
I mean, why do women do anything really? I don't. Yes,
just like all of the fuckingreasons that women do anything
ever, right? They make choices.
Those choices are constrained bythe cultures and the time
periods they find themselves in,but they're making choices all
the time. For some folks, it isabout piety. It is about
(21:42):
building right relationship withGod and yourself and your
community and your family. Womenmight choose to cover because
they look good doing it and theywant to look good and great for
them. For some of them, it isabout carving out space to not
be looked at, to say that mywhole body is not for you to
behold and fuck off. Love that.
(22:03):
For some folks, they arepressured into doing it. We get
pressured into doing a whole lotof things. Jesus, my parents
pressured me real hard to like,Oh, don't get married now
babies. I did one of thosethings, but not in ways that
they like, right? So peerpressure, coercion, absolutely a
thing to your family expectingit your culture, expecting it.
feeling better about leavingyour family and being out going
(22:25):
to college or something. That'ssometimes why folks choose to
cover. Yeah, you're just used toit. You're just in the habit as
it were. That's fellas and jokeas well as the truth. It can be
comfortable. Sometimes it justfeels good on your body, she
says artistically. And then alsolike straight up speaking of
coercion, there are legalreasons that people do it. In
(22:46):
the past, Saudi women had tocover Iran currently women have
to cover but like, and we'regoing to talk about homophobia
far in the homework. But like inIran, women were also forced to
uncover as part of like asecular modernization. So is it
about what's on their headersheard about controlling women's
bodies? I think you know theanswer to that, sometimes for
legal protest. In the past,Turkish women have covered and
(23:08):
uncovered for protest reasons.
And in Quebec, and in theNetherlands and France currently
covering is complicated, whichis particularly fucked up in a
time of COVID, where folks hadbeen compelled to cover their
faces for public health reasons,but we're punished for doing it
for religious reasons.
Everything is a mess. And peopleare not great to each other,
particularly when you'redifferent. Yeah, that's why
(23:31):
women might choose to covertheir heads.
Ilyse (23:35):
Yeah, I want to take like a pause for two seconds on the
feminism one because this alwaysbreaks a particular audience
member of a particular age.
Because we have been so taughtin the United States to see
hijab as oppressive that whenfolks in their own voices like
there's this clip I have that Ialways play where it's like a
(23:56):
bunch of young college aged orlike 20s Muslim women saying
things like, yeah, I wear thisbecause I'm a raging feminist
and this is awesome. And this iswhere like, white women of a
certain age like short out, liketruly you're like, Okay, Boomer
shot, there's like, be quiet. Iknow, like you are, you have
shorted out, we will reboot youin a second. But like, let me
(24:19):
explain this through your gunmaximum under yeah, like I just
like, I'm aware that when youhave been taught that this thing
is oppressive. And when you arepart of like a burn your bra, I
can show my shoulders in shulgeneration that this might feel
untrue to you. But the idea, Ijust want to underline what you
said Megan, which is the I wearhijab I cover I wear loose
(24:42):
fitting garments, so that Icontrol what men have access to
see, yeah, I'm going to use menhere because that's often who
we're protecting again, right?
The male gaze is often the onethat we are worried about. I
want you to hear that within afeminist context that doesn't
not mean all Muslim feministscover or at all, but there are
(25:03):
plenty of Muslims who cover whothen identify as feminist or
egalitarian or like politics, orlike radical because this is
about moving in the world. It isnot about the clothing having an
inherent value.
Megan (25:20):
Right? Well, and we have folks, Muslim women and other
women of religious convictiontalking about feeling empowered,
that they're taking their bodiesback. I use an article in class
that woman who started coveringwhen she went to college, also
said it helped her rethink herrelationship to food and
disordered eating because shedidn't feel like she was on
(25:40):
display or for publicconsumption all the time. I
also, I have a clip that I liketo use that I think we've
assigned before, but it's theniqab bitches in France, after
one of countless stupid attemptsto tell Muslim women how they
should be in public wherethey're running around in the
cops, right? So they're, they'recovered to the waist with just
(26:00):
their eyes poking out. Andthey're running around in booty
shorts and like high high heelsin front of public offices and
government buildings and theprotest there is Why is it okay
for me to uncover like this, butnot to say I don't want my body
to be for public consumption.
Yeah. Anyway, feminism iscomplicated, and maybe doesn't
always look like what you thinkit should look like.
(26:28):
I have a question for you. Hitme. How can people how can our
beloved nerds and the folks thatthey're going to talk about this
with later? How can they be lessincorrect about covering them?
Ilyse (26:42):
For starters, care less, care less about what others are
wearing? Unless you want tothrow someone a badass
compliment? Like, truly, if youcan let men with big Johnson T
shirts live in peace? I'mcurious. Like just curious if we
could let a bitch have somefabric on her head without being
dicks about it. Like I? I'm overit. Like I just it's just
(27:03):
clothing. Yeah, yeah,
Megan (27:06):
yeah, sometimes we put stuff on. It's not that
complicated. Also, I'm justgoing to I'm going to add in my
thing here, which like personwearing a piece of cloth on
their head, however significantit is or is not to them does not
equal brainwashing add abrainwashing as we have
discussed at length on this spotis not a thing. But like also,
(27:28):
what if we take women seriously,and trusts that they dress
themselves in the morning? Onpurpose? What if they make
choices and are adults?
Ilyse (27:41):
And I would add to that, you should also ask whether or
not you're a trusted person.
Because I have been in tons ofMuslim women's spaces where like
when it is just gals, or folksidentifying as gals, the
headscarves come off, becausethat's a space for that feels
comfortable. And if you're not aperson for whom that feels
comfortable, that's on you, bro,that's not Muslim women's
(28:03):
problem, be safer. So yeah, besafer. And I'll add for my final
like, what can we do to be lessincorrect? Let's stop thinking
that a person in modest clothingstops thinking at their modesty
or their piety. So like, Ipromise that women who cover are
far more than their headscarvesor their niqab or they're a
(28:26):
buyer or their salwaar or theirburqa, and like I'm mixing in
names of clothing styles, on topof things that we might consider
Islamic fashion on purpose,because women are not just their
jeans. I just like, what if weimagined that a hijab II was
more than her hijab likefrankly, even describing women
(28:47):
as hijab ease is a conversationwe have in my classes, like, why
are we comfortable? With like,referring to group of women is
like, Yo, head scarves? Yeah,that's not great. And like,
listen, lots of hijab isreferred to themselves as
hijabi. So I don't want to liketake away that agency, but I
also want to name that like, Idon't know, it's like when my
(29:07):
dad would like see, like, thoseskirts, like that's like really
messed up. That's like early 19rods or something. And like,
what if we don't do
Megan (29:17):
it? Like Guys and Dolls level? Yeah, well,
Ilyse (29:20):
oh, so nicely, nicely, please sit down. Let's talk
about some standard.
Megan (29:28):
What are the states? You can't just give me the musical
theater cue and No, no,
Ilyse (29:33):
sorry, I queued you up and I didn't I did not think of
the consequences.
Megan (29:36):
You didn't think it through? It's okay. What are the
stakes? Well, what if what if wetake women seriously? What if
their clothes and their choicesall are theirs to make? And they
are agents who get to make theirown decisions and probably do
so. On purpose? Yeah, like alsofor saying that, I'm curious
(30:02):
about the woman who gets up inthe morning and for whom it is
important to cover becausethat's how she wants to present
herself to the world and to hercommunity and to God. But also
she didn't spend like an hourthinking about this is how I
will signify it like she got upand she got dressed. Sometimes
it's also just a thing that youdid without thinking about it
(30:23):
that much in maybe stop makingsuch a big fucking deal about
everything all the time, and letwomen live. Yeah, I would like
also very much encouraged us totake the patriarchy seriously,
like if you are so angry thatwomen want or need to avoid a
male gaze. Maybe take that shitup with men, because it's their
(30:46):
eyeballs, and their rapey selvesthat need correction, and also
just consumer culture that sayswomen's bodies are to be
consumed and devoured. I hatethat. And like as, as we're
saying this too, I want tospecify again, obviously, not
all perpetrators of sexualviolence are men, but the
(31:08):
numbers are not on your sides,they're friends. And I want to
emphasize that when we'retalking about folks who cover
doing so, to control theirbodies, to claim their bodies
for themselves, that you shouldbe able to walk the streets
wearing whatever you want, ornothing at all and still be
safe. What and how you'redressing your body does not give
(31:30):
other people permission to touchor hurt you. And thinking like
that
Ilyse (31:35):
is also gross. Nor does a full body burqa protect you.
Because it's not as if Muslimwomen who cover are immune to
sexual violence exactly like thethe logic here is just
patriarchy. And so what if,
Megan (31:53):
well, if we don't do that, right, well, and I've also
seen that kind of rhetoricweaponized against survivors of
sexual assault who are alsoMuslim and like, well, if you
had covered, then surelyproperly, that's not
Ilyse (32:04):
right. That's not how this works. It is not.
Megan (32:08):
And then women who cover are also visible targets for
perpetrators police and laws. Soagain, 16 nation states are
currently banning burkas, again,16 nation states have said that
Muslims cannot choose their ownclothing that Muslim women are
not adults who can make choicesabout what they put on their
bodies, to nation states requirecovering Iran and Afghanistan,
(32:29):
which proves the same thingcitizens cannot choose their
clothes, and other still havepartial bands like government
employees not being able to wearhijab or niqab and we've we've
got a list in the show notes.
Ilyse (32:40):
Yeah. I also want to I want to underline this legal
state here because that's wherewe started and I we're gonna
wrap up but that's where we'regonna end to because this is not
just about like women be doingthings for themselves making
choices getting dressed. This isnot like a shear Horwitz
clothing montage moment wherelike, all choices are equal.
(33:02):
These are politicized choices inde facto industry ways. And I'm
very excited about andfrustrated by the legal things
because there's all of theselaws happening around the world.
So as you just said, 16 nationstates, Ban burkas, and then
there are, I think, dozens morethat have partial bands or
(33:23):
contextual bands on either hijabor niqab. But then like a lot of
those are located in white,predominantly Christian,
European and American, Europeanand North American states. But
there's also laws in the Indianstate of Karnataka that made
hijab illegal for students.
These are Hindu, right Hindufundamentalist Hindu nationalist
laws that erupted in violencenot that long ago. In the state,
(33:46):
just 40 minutes to my NorthQuebec. There's an anti niqab
and hijab law making Muslimwomen who cover illegal in
public service jobs. So you wantto be a teacher you want to be a
government employee? Nope. Sowhat does it mean that we are
writing out? Muslim women andSikh men and in some cases, Jews
(34:08):
from working in any governmentsector? What are we teaching
children if we are teaching themthat Muslims are not suitable to
be teachers
Megan (34:22):
in an alleged democracy,
Ilyse (34:24):
right, and an alleged destiny, oh, also in an alleged
liberal country? Mm hmm. Okay.
France also disallows hijabsinto cubs, but specifically
won't let girls under the age of18 cover. So your childhood
choices which normally would beadjudicated by your guardian, or
(34:45):
parent or not, because France,one of the most racist places
ever has a real problem withMuslims. And it does does not
trust Muslim parents to raiseMuslim children? Or, as a friend
of mine once said, It does trustMuslim parents to raise Muslim
(35:08):
children, which is why it doesnot allow it work. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And there's also all ofthese other places where hijab
has been banned either partiallyor not in the United States, I
lost track. At one point, therewere 17 states in the United
States that had put forth eitheran anti Sharia or an anti hijab
ban. And the Sharia was almostalways tied to these ideas of
(35:29):
jihad and hijab, like visibleMuslim notice. So I want y'all
to hear that getting hijabwrong. Getting why people cover
wrong is not just annoying,because it's like, bad
interpersonal, or like badinterfaith politics. It has
legal and physical and violentramifications specifically
(35:50):
written on the bodies of womenidentifying Muslims. Thanks, I
hate it. So I think I also wantto just say, like when we
politicize this garment, it'sbad news, right? But you're also
incorrect to think that Muslimand women and femmes are just
like being herded. There'sprotests and demonstrations,
(36:10):
both against hijab bans or in acab bands, but also against
hijab and niqab mandates. Thereare moments of solidarity
between and among Muslimcommunities. I think there are
some ill advised hitch like whatis it like to wear hijab
solidarity white womenmovements? Like I think that's a
problem, but that's like aseparate issue. There are
conversations about how and whenand why one might cover so quite
(36:32):
a lot of my students make thatchoice based on situations, but
reducing Muslim women to a hijaband then calling that hijab
oppressive or backward, isincorrect. And it's racist as
fuck. And it authorizes violencelike the entire war on terror. I
hate it, as you should. So stopemailing us about it. We're sick
(36:57):
of it.
Megan (37:00):
We are we're very tired and sweaty.
Ilyse (37:04):
Don't pack up yet nerds.
You got homework. Don't work.
Why don't work. All right. Sowe've got a convert, like the
conversation has a podcast onNiCad bans in Canada, and how
those bands are tied directly toIslamophobic hate crimes. So we
are linking up the law and theviolence right off the bat. It's
a pretty good podcast. There's alot of news that I'll put in the
(37:25):
show notes also. But book wise,we want to recommend where we
started Liz view cars. Piousfashion is a really great book
with Harvard University Press.
And then she's got a ton ofrelated public scholarship.
There's a podcast with BuildingBridges out of Georgetown, and
that's really listened to andvery very assignable. And Liz
also has a an article calledDear Nancy Pelosi hijab is not a
(37:45):
hat, which I find very cheeky.
There is Sahar mares. What isveiling? Which is a book from
UNC press, super easy to read,very consumable for the public.
James libeled and Timothy grosshave a really important book on
(38:06):
Islamic veiling and shinjang.
The political and societalstruggle to define Uighur female
adornment. Sorry, that's anarticle not a book but the
Chinese government is doing anethnic cleansing of Muslim
leader is on is barring Muslimsfrom wearing head coverings.
These are all related things soI want you to get a big picture.
And then there's a flock as yourAziz article, the veiling issue
(38:29):
in 20th century Iran and fashionand society religion and
government. So we're thinkingabout it as fashion. And then
there's the classic Houma hoodFarr's the veil in their minds
and on our heads the persistenceof colonial images of Muslim
women. It's old, but it's great.
Yep. And then my favorite mediafor you is rap my hijab. Hadar
(38:51):
she's a she's like a cool musicartist slash rappers. Yeah. What
do you got Meghan? Anything.
Megan (38:59):
I mean, I'm just like, I'm excited about the video. I
use it in class and you just geta sense of how many different
ways there are to cover andwho's covering and again, just
the like, beautiful fashion ofit rather than just having it
reduced to kind of dour modesty,like, No, these are gorgeous,
gorgeous people. So KaylaWheeler did some amazing writing
about Black Muslim women's piousfashion first Pella square, I
(39:22):
will get you a link for that. Wetogether wrote a piece for
Religion Dispatches about astars and Stripe hijab on
ripples drag race and well theracism that happened after that.
Which reveals as the title says,America's troubling relationship
to gender ethnicity and that inquotes, religion. Jeff Goldblum
(39:43):
did a racism to our girl Jackieand we did not like it so you
can read us yelling about that.
I have a piece in what we bothhave pieces in Tina. Hell is
great Routledge Handbook ofIslam and gender. But my piece
on gender, race and AmericanIslamophobia specifically talk
about an image of a Muslim womancovering being used to protest
(40:03):
the inauguration of the 45th.
President, it showed up in theWashington Post. She is wearing
a Stars and Stripes her job, itwas presented as like a bastion
of liberal values. And I'm usingliberal here very deliberately.
And a lot of folks wereconcerned about the American
imperialism of that image. Soand Shepard Fairey basically
(40:29):
didn't care and isn't Yeah,great. So anyway, that's in the
article. And then I also have apiece in the Journal of the
American Academy of Religioncalled unmasking Islamophobia,
anti Muslim hostility and aswhite supremacy in the
roundtable that Laura Mackayedited that came out of our AR
roundtable and Judith Watsonfalsework. But I was
(40:52):
specifically in that piecelooking at anti Klan anti
masking laws in Georgia. And theway that local lawmakers were
trying to use them to basicallymake it harder for Muslim women
who cover to be in public. Sospoilers, but the way that these
laws were trying to be written,it would have been fine to drive
(41:13):
around dressed as Santa Claus,even if your whole face is
covered, but not if you're aMuslim woman engaging in a pious
fashion. So everybody lovesSanta. Everybody loves Santa.
It's fine. It's not fine. DemonKlaus. Anyway,
Ilyse (41:27):
shout out to EV Wolf, Rachel's IEF and Juliana Finch
the key I want to one team whosework makes his pa accessible and
therefore awesome listenablesocial media mobile among many
other things for which we aregrateful.
Megan (41:37):
Sure, you can find Meghan that's me on Twitter at mpg PhD
and Elise at pr o f IR M F. Youcan also find the show at
keeping it underscore 101 Findthe website at keeping it one on
one.com Peep the Insta if youwant to check us out on tick
tock I guess and drop us arating or review in your pod
catcher of choice with thatpeace out nerds Your Honor, it's
(42:00):
on the syllabus
Unknown (42:28):
don't don't make you sweat
don't feel too tight your wityour hair dryer that your hair
how long your hair isyou need to get your life you
only see your uncle steadyworking let dental you pop in
and run your mouth like thetrend. Don't let your exotic
vacation number with yourfascination no need that
paper paper paper if you wanteducation
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