December 10, 2024 • 41 mins
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Ep #77 - In a media landscape that continues to demonstrate its selective empathy, the recent disparate coverage of two tragic and avoidable deaths starkly illustrates Professor Evelyn Alsultany's core argument about media representation. While extensive airtime has been devoted to the death of a white CEO, the death of Black Girl Disney's Dominique Brown has received far less attention—a painful reminder of how media systematically determines whose stories matter and whose lives are deemed worthy of collective mourning.
Media representation isn't just about entertainment—it's a powerful force that shapes our perceptions of marginalized communities. In this compelling re-released interview, Professor Alsultany dismantles the harmful stereotypes and narrow narratives that reduce complex human experiences to simplistic caricatures.
In her groundbreaking book, Broken: The Failed Promise of Muslim Inclusion, Professor Alsultany dissects the harmful “logics” that justify exclusion and inequality. She boldly challenges the idea that marginalized people should need to be a "good" version of themselves to be accepted.
As a Cuban-Iraqi American, a childfree Latina, and a leading expert on Arab and Muslim representation, Evelyn's work exposes how Hollywood and media narratives that legitimize exclusion and perpetuate harmful stereotypes. Through her research, we gain a better understanding of how our perceptions are shaped—and how we can push back against injustice.
This episode explores themes of identity, representation, and accountability in the wake of historical events currently unfolding in Arab and Muslim countries, and how our media is covering them. The professor invites us to step out of our comfort zones, confront the systems of oppression we live within, and listen to voices we too often ignore.
⚠️ Content note: This episode discusses terrorism, rape, school shootings, and genocide. Also the death toll in Palestine as of Dec 9, 2024 is now 42,000 people.
To get the full show notes, including Professor Alsultany's bio, and an episode transcript, go to PauletteErato.com/shownotes. This is episode 77.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Buen dia, mi gente, andwelcome to La Vida Más
Chévere de Childfree Latinas.
The only Spanglish podcastfor childfree Latinas y
Latines, helping us liberateourselves from the toxic
cultural brainwashing we allgrew up with, so that we can
design our best lives instead.
I'm your host andresident childfree
Latina, Paulette Erato.
(00:24):
By now, you've undoubtedlyheard about what happened
to the UnitedHealthcare CEO.
As the kids say, he got murkedwalking into an investor
meeting, where they wereabout to celebrate their
twenty b b b billion in profitthis year by doing what?
Denying more claims thananyone else in the industry.
(00:45):
Claims like forcing diabetics togo without insulin, for example,
because it made them more money.
Because fuck the little people,you know, the rest of us?
In the aftermath, we're seeinga serious divide between how the
news is framing the story andhow the rest of us are reacting.
The media is painting this asa shocking act of violence,
(01:08):
but was it really shocking?
Because on socials, out inthe streets, and around the
local water coolers, it'smore about, well, who's next?
Because for a lot of us,this act wasn't so much a
crime as it was justice.
It's a natural response todecades of systemic inequality,
(01:28):
denied care, and liveslost due to craven, profit
driven healthcare decisions.
That CEO is basically asymbol of everything wrong
with our system and thismoment right now illustrates
just how deeply distrust andfrustration with corporate
power run in our society.
We're getting really,really tired of it.
(01:51):
Now, I haven't even mentionedhis name, but you know
who I'm talking about.
You know what his name is.
But do you know whoDominique Brown is?
Because she died the next dayfrom negligence that led to
anaphylaxis at a sponsoredluncheon right here in LA.
Maybe you've heard of theBlack Girl Disney platform
because that was her.
(02:11):
Say her name, Dominique Brown.
Dominique's death highlightsa horrifying reality.
When it comes to marginalizedcommunities, even life
and death can be dismissedas unworthy of attention.
These two events, one that'sdominating the news cycle
and one that's barely beingmentioned, are showing us
how media narratives shapeour understanding of whose
(02:35):
lives matter, whose deathsare worth mourning, and whose
humanity is even acknowledged.
It's disgusting.
And yet Dominique's storyis the one we should be
focusing on because lifethreatening allergic reactions
are super common in the US.
Millionaires, they're notlistening to this show, but
(02:57):
one in 50 of us have seriousallergies with at least 25
percent of the rest of youdealing with at least the
annoyance of seasonal allergies.
Me, I have to carry anEpiPen on me at all times.
Wanna hear a sickjoke about that?
Sometimes I can't even geta new one when they expire
because pharmacies just don'tkeep EpiPens on hand, despite
(03:21):
how often they might be needed.
That is your profitdriven healthcare at work,
churning out the billions.
This stark contrast betweenhow the media tells a story
and how the rest of usexperience the world isn't new.
This topic isn't new.
It's the same kind of disconnectwe see when marginalized
(03:42):
communities are misrepresentedand their humanity diminished,
like casting Haitiansas dog eaters or calling
all immigrants illegals.
That makes it easy toignore their voices.
This is the same bias thatProfessor Evelyn Alsultany
calls out in her work andthe same systems we talked
(04:03):
about in this episode.
And that's why I've chosenit, which originally came
out in February 2024,to re-release today.
So as you listen to thisepisode, think about how the
media narratives shape ourunderstanding of right and
wrong, of who gets to be avictim and who doesn't, and
how those narratives impactmarginalized groups in very
(04:24):
real and very dangerous ways..
I'm not going to mincewords, mis amigues.
Today's episode is goingto be a tough listen.
It's subject matterthat can be polarizing.
And yet I'm going to askyou to listen to it anyway,
because you can do hard things.
You can push outsideof your comfort zone.
(04:45):
That is, after all, howyou design your best life.
I asked my guest, ProfessorEvelyn Alsultany, an Arab
Latina, to be on the showprecisely for the discussion
you're about to hear.
I'm a huge fan of her work.
The deep dive she's takenon these really difficult
topics, oof, I'll haveher whole bio in the show
(05:05):
notes, but the highlightis that she's the author of
several books, the latest ofwhich is Broken, The Failed
Promise of Muslim Inclusion.
And our interview is ostensiblyabout Muslim and Arab relations
in the US, which the professoris an expert on, but what we're
actually talking about is thetoxic cultural normalization
of how we view certain groups.
(05:27):
What I hope to help youdismantle and unlearn through
this interview is everythingyou've been taught, not only
about the Middle East, but alsoabout any other minority group.
Think about every stereotypeyou've heard from the
Islamic terrorists to theclassic welfare queen or
the Asian model minority.
(05:48):
Or, the selfish,childfree woman.
I want you to think aboutwhy these stereotypes exist.
It's because they're servingsomebody, and that somebody
is probably the patriarchy.
And I want you to thinkabout what you specifically
gain from perpetuating them.
(06:10):
As a childfree Latina, itdoesn't serve me to support
the idea that, you know, we'reAsians can't drive or Black
women are always angry becauseall that does is further
divide us into insular groupswhen what we should be doing
is uniting ourselves acrossthese ridiculous boundaries
against the patriarchy.
(06:31):
Against the forces that pitus against each other so that
they can continue to fleece usof our labor for the gain of
a very small group of people.
We need to stop doing thatbecause we are not going to get
anywhere fighting each other.
And that's the whole point.
They, the patriarchy, andall the systems that fall
(06:53):
under its umbrella, likeclassism, ableism, misogyny,
capitalism, and yes,racism, keep us distracted
from the real problems.
Not that all these ismsaren't real problems, they
are, but instead of fightingagainst them, we fight each
other, and that's by design.
(07:16):
So if you want to design yourbest life and live your vida
más chévere, then you gottado some uncomfortable things.
Things that mighttax your empathy.
But because you know the valueof self love and self care,
and if you need help withthat, please check out the
last episode, then you areready and armed for this fight.
(07:37):
While you're listening tothis episode, I want you
to think about all theparallels that exist between
this subject and that ofother marginalized groups.
I want you to see howthe tactics are the same
in almost every case,and I want you to care.
And then I want you todo something about it.
There won't be any satisfactoryanswers in this episode.
(07:59):
I think at the end of it,you're going to end up
even more uncomfortable andprobably a lot more pissed off.
And that is good becausewhen we step out of our
comfort zone and confrontthese atrocities, we light a
spark for changing ourselvesand everything around us.
So take that fire you arebound to feel and put it into
(08:23):
action immediately around you.
Listening to this might be hard.
I hope it's hard because that'sgoing to show you that you have
empathy and that's a good thing.
But even if you are on theopposite side of the political
or socioeconomic or hell,even the color spectrum,
from me, I hope you'll listento this with an open mind.
(08:44):
And more importantly, withan open heart because we
are all scapegoats forsomeone else's agenda.
Today, we're just talkingabout this one group.
As a trigger warning, I willlet you know we are going to
talk about terrorism, rape,school shootings, and genocide.
(09:04):
I told you it's goingto be a tough episode.
As a last note, the professoris also a childfree Latina.
We don't dive too much intoit, but check out the Substack
for a short video abouther talking about her cats.
That said, she is yet anothershining example of someone who
doesn't want kids of their ownand yet still makes an impact.
(09:26):
She spends all day, every day,especially between the months
of August and May, educating,mentoring, shaping, and worrying
about someone else's kids.
Yet people dare tocall us selfish?
Today we are dismantlingsome toxic cross cultural
(09:46):
bullshit because my guesttoday is Professor Evelyn
Alsultany, who has a veryinteresting background.
Not only, Evelyn, are youCuban on your mom's side, Iraqi
on your father's side, hada step mom who was Colombian
(10:08):
who converted, but you werealso born and raised in New
York and now live in LA.
That's a lot.
It is.
Yes.
You are also the author ofthis book, Broken, The Failed
Promise of Muslim Inclusion,which is, hey, you want
to get angry, read this.
(10:28):
By the way, I startedreading this on a plane.
You mentioned on a previouspodcast that you were on that
you're always a little concernedabout anything that people
might say to you on planes.
I am.
I've had a lot of not sopleasant conversations from
the chatty person sittingnext to me on the plane.
So, you know, what doyou do for a living?
(10:50):
I study racism.
I hear a whole lot of opinionsabout racism not mattering.
Or what's that bookyou're reading?
Oh, it's aboutanti Muslim racism.
It's just a hard startfor a conversation.
So I usually try to hidewhat I'm doing on airplanes.
and try to avoidconversations on airplanes.
Are you an introvert?
(11:11):
I am.
I would say I'm asemi, semi introvert.
Are you?
No.
No.
No.
I should give somequick background.
So I first heard ProfessorAlsultany on the Wine
and Chisme Podcast withJessica, who, who's great.
And then you were at her liveevent here in Los Angeles.
(11:32):
And that was a panel onrepresentation in the
media, which is yourwhole thing, right?
As much as Muslim and Arabrepresentation in the media.
But that particular episode,which I will link in the show
notes, was you sandwichedbetween two very different
(11:53):
personalities and their takeson Latina and Latino, Latine
representation in the media.
And your face during that!It is, I don't think it's on
YouTube, but I had a frontrow seat to your reaction.
I was trying to mediatewhat was happening.
I was trying to find amiddle ground between the
two, but they both have, youknow, valid, valid points.
(12:15):
They did.
I think it was a veryinteresting discussion.
I think that's part of what'sgoing to guide our discussion
because as Latinas, aschildfree Latinas, both of us,
and the subject matter thatyou study and teach others.
How does that not exhaust you?
I have to say it is exhausting.
And I sometimes talk tomy colleagues because
(12:38):
I'm in American Studies,Ethnic Studies, we all
teach about racism.
Well, look, if you'd like toteach about math, I'm just
wondering, or, you know,sometimes I fantasize about
creating a class that wouldbe lighter, not difficult,
and I can't think of onethat I would do because then
it's not interesting to me.
(13:00):
Right,So I teach courses about the
history of racism in the U.
S.
Right now I'm doing a broadone, but sometimes I do specific
ones about Arab Americans orhow Muslims have been portrayed
in the media, and they're,they're difficult topics, and
I've had moments where I'mlooking at my students faces
(13:20):
while we're discussing a topic.
For example, a few yearsago, I taught a course about
Islamophobia, and I showeda video clip of Bill Maher's
episode that I talk about in thebook, where he basically says
that Muslims are incompatiblewith liberal values.
And I had, I think, 40 studentsin the class, and at least 20
(13:41):
or 25 were Muslim, and as Iplayed the clip, I remember
looking at their faces.
To see how they would react.
And I thought, I really hopeI'm helping them figure out
who they are in the world andfigure out how to deal with
this perception of who they are.
But what if I'mtraumatizing them?
(14:01):
Or even this week in class, wewere doing a segment on history
of racism in the United States,particularly anti Black racism.
We looked at an encyclopediaentry from the 1700s that has
the most grotesque descriptionof what a Black person is.
And also at that moment, I just,I think about the Black students
in my class and what that mustbe like to read that material
(14:24):
and realize that an encyclopediawas defining your entire group.
So I have moments where I'm,I'm, I'm hoping I'm helping
students to have awarenessand understanding of a long
history of creating logics thatlegitimize excluding people.
But I have moments where I worrythat I'm either traumatizing
them, and other moments whereI, I do think, wow, it'd be
(14:47):
nice to teach something lighter.
I can't see myself doingthat because I'm so committed
to this particular project.
I think you have to be.
This isn't something you canjust turn on when you walk in
the door to your lecture hall.
Do you do large lectures,or are they smaller,
more intimate classes?
My typical, this semester,I have two classes,
(15:09):
each has 50 students.
Yeah.
So a bit more intimatediscussion than the 400
person lecture hall.
Correct.
I like 50.
I can still learn your name.
So let me ask themost obvious question.
In your book, you definethis umbrella of what is
acceptable about a Muslim.
And how they areportrayed in the media.
(15:31):
And you said it starts withthe, the patriotic Muslim,
and then it becomes a bitmore nominal, and then
there's the good Muslim.
It basically all boils up into agood Muslim, American, liberal,
whatever those tenets are.
Are you what would beconsidered a good Muslim?
Do you consideryourself a good Muslim?
(15:54):
I have to say this questionis a funny question.
If that's for me, itmakes me laugh because for
me, I am neither a goodMuslim or a bad Muslim.
What I'm trying to do inthe book is reject or make
us aware of what it takesto be included in the U.
(16:15):
S.
So after 9/11, as you weredescribing, this idea came
up, and there's a scholar atColumbia, Mahmood Mamdani,
who's written about this figure.
You're a good Muslimif you support U.
S.
policies.
You're patriotic, andpatriotic in the most
narrow sense of the term.
It's not patriotic thatyou're going to defend
(16:35):
democracy and freedomwhen it's being attacked.
It's you support whatthe government is doing
during the war on terror.
You don't question it, youjust support it, you put
a flag outside your door,you're willing to fight and
die for the United States.
A lot of characterson television emerged
(16:56):
who were good.
They were patriotic Americanswho worked for the CIA,
who worked for the FBI,or on the show 24 that
was on for many years.
They worked for CTU, theCounterterrorism Unit.
And they show their patriotismand that they are good and
acceptable because they'rewilling to fight and die
for the United States.
(17:17):
So that figure came up andit was good because we've
seen so many terrorists.
So, compared to the terrorist,okay, this is a nice character,
but it was very limited.
And so, in the first twochapters of the book, I'm
trying to trace, what arethe pathways to inclusion?
Suddenly, Arabs and Muslimscan be included in diversity.
(17:38):
What does that look like inrepresentation, in the world?
And then the othercharacter that emerged.
This was maybe 10 yearsafter 9/11, was the secular
Muslim or the nominal Muslim.
And this is someone whodoesn't care about religion.
The example I have in the bookis the reality TV show Shahs
of Sunset, which is abouta group of Iranian friends.
(17:59):
Some are Jewish,some are Muslim.
But those who are Muslim,they drink, they party.
They have sex.
And tattoos.
They have tattoos, yes!They behave in ways that
make them acceptable.
I mean, there's actuallyan Islamophobic website
that commends them and saysif all Muslims were like
(18:20):
these people, we wouldn'thave a problem with Islam.
And it's not to criticize,because, you know, as
a Muslim, some are veryreligious, some are not.
Like in any faith, there isa range of religiosity and
devoutness, so it's not tocriticize someone who isn't
religious and who still hassome kind of association, they
grew up Muslim, but it's thatthis particular form of being
(18:44):
Muslim became acceptable.
I want to point out that theprofessor's description of
quote unquote Good Muslimsmirrors what's been happening
with Latines for so long.
Two of the most populartalked about shows right
now are Griselda, about theColombian drug lord played
by Sofia Vergara, and theupcoming documentary on
(19:05):
Selena's murderer, who I'mnot even going to say the
name of because fuck her.
For the most part, Latinas arestill a punchline, like Sofia's
character on Modern Family.
If we're not the punchline, thenwe're probably violent criminals
like in the Sons of Anarchy spinoff The Mayans, Narcos, Queen
of the South, and now Griselda.
But then shows like Gentified,which is about your typical L.
(19:29):
A.
family, those get cancelled.
At least we stillhave This Fool.
For now, what ProfessorAlsultany is describing
is what happens to all theminorities that Hollywood
has deemed to include.
They all seem to go throughthese prescribed stages
that then allow the generalpublic to become more
accepting of said minority.
(19:50):
They have to be introducedin a very specific way.
And this narrative?
It's harmful.
So I've been trying to trackwhat do acceptable Muslims
look like, because it's notjust, Oh, Muslims are welcome.
It's, you have to conformto a particular idea.
You have to fit in this box.
(20:11):
Exactly.
It's patriotic, secular,and it ends up being a
very rigid framework, andit reveals a lot about the
parameters of inclusion.
It's not an open door,there are parameters.
I'm trying to figure out whatare those parameters, what
are the limits, and it alsochanges over time, so trying
to track how it changes.
(20:31):
What I found really interestingis, well there's a lot I found
interesting, let's be honest.
For any of you listening tothis, it is a hard read, but
it is a worthwhile read becausethere are many parallels
between what Muslims and ArabAmericans go through, and any
(20:52):
other marginalized person.
And you make thatpoint repeatedly.
There is violence between blacksand Arabs, Latinos and Arabs.
And it's like, we're allfighting against each other
instead of the patriarchyand the systems in place
that have allowed for this.
And that's always my pointas a childfree Latina,
(21:14):
that parents and childfreepeople are not enemies.
We're all on the same sideagainst the system that has
pitted us against each other.
Yes.
Going back to fitting into thisbox again, it's, it's something
that so many marginalizedpeople have experienced, sadly.
I actually will link peopleback to an episode with Ana
(21:38):
Del Castillo, where she talksabout not cutting off pieces
of yourself to fit in that box.
And I think that is yourultimate point in this book,
that there are all of theseways that you are going to
be judged and that peopleare judged and you're never
going to win the fight.
Because even when you arethe most patriotic, the most
(21:58):
secular, the most X, Y, andZ, God forbid you have the
wrong opinion on this onepolicy of the United States,
you're on a blacklist.
Palestine and Israel.
And that is the lastchapter, and it is the most
infuriating, at least itwas for me in reading it,
(22:20):
because it's targeting youngpeople, college students.
And what was reallydisappointing is that so
many of the examples thatyou gave happened here
in California, which is aprogressive state, at the UCs.
Which are progressiveuniversities and that, that
pissed me off, I'm gonna behonest, it pissed me off.
(22:41):
One of the questions I askedyou is, is how do you not
find your work exhausting?
Which you answered,it is exhausting.
What do you do to mitigate it?
Well, it is very difficult.
In writing this book washard to be confronted
with so much material,so much real stuff for.
I mean, it.
All of my work for the last20 years has been about 9/11
(23:03):
and the aftermath of 9/11,and so we're talking about
government policies, a wholewar on terror, USA Patriot Act,
war in Afghanistan that killed30, 000 civilians, war in Iraq
that killed 150, 000 civilians.
Iraq had nothingto do with 9/11.
A lot of other policies,there was countering violent
(23:24):
extremism during the Obama era,special registration during
the Bush era, Abu Ghraib prisonscandal, Guantanamo Bay prison.
I mean, the amount of policiesand violence that has been
enacted towards Muslims underthe guise of national security.
The amount of people whohave died is really stunning.
(23:45):
It's always hard to siftthrough that material and with
the book, all the chapterswere difficult, but there's
one chapter about hate crimes.
Again, some young Muslimswho were murdered.
There were three young peoplein North Carolina who were
murdered by their neighborin 2015, Dia Barakat,
Yusor Abu-Salha, and RazanAbu-Salha, and then in 2017.
(24:08):
Nabra Hassanen, who was 17years old, was murdered in
Reston, Virginia, which isa particularly difficult
case because she wasmurdered by an undocumented
immigrant from El Salvador.
But reading the police reportsand other reports about the
murder, she was raped, shewas killed, she was left
in a pond, 17 years old.
(24:28):
When I was writing thatparticular chapter, I
would cry and have to stopand then come back to it.
And speaking about pittinggroups together, when that
happened, some people in thepolitical right blamed the
left for the murder and said,well, the political left
loves to allow quote unquoteillegals into the country
(24:49):
and that's what you get.
So they use the idea thatthis particular man, Darwin
Martinez Torres, that becausehe was undocumented and
they said that he was in agang, there was no evidence
that he had been in a gang.
But there are all thestereotypes you have about
Latino people were takingplace in investigating
(25:09):
this particular murder.
And then law enforcement refusedto classify it as a hate crime.
They said it was road rage.
So yeah, there's a lot there andtrying to unpack it and write
about the different layers.
It is heartbreaking.
So, what's your wayof managing that?
That was the question.
How do I manage it?
(25:31):
Please, I thinkit's all important.
It's all important becauseso many people who are on
the activist track, who pourtheir heart and soul into it,
whether or not they're paidfor it, they need to hear it.
I have to say, I don't,like, have a thing.
It's, uh, it's awork in progress.
What I do do is that since Ilive on an academic calendar
(25:52):
from mid August until mid May,when I am on and I am doing,
when mid May comes, I am sotired that I really try to take
a time out during those summermonths when I'm not teaching.
You reached out to do thepodcast and I was like, I'm
so burnout I can't do this.
So I, that's what I do.
(26:12):
I take a time out and I havethese conversations with my
husband where he thinks I'mbeing dramatic, but I mean it.
I say to him, if I keep goingthe way I'm going, I'm going
to end up in the hospital.
Like, I really feel Ican't continue like this.
And so in the summer months,it's really important that
I disconnect, that I'm notgoing at the same pace.
That I go away somewhere.
So the summers end up beinga very important time to
(26:35):
unplug, decompress, and tobe able to continue again,
mid-August rolls around.
Part of this summer you spent,what's the word I'm looking for?
Rehabilitating, maybe,your soul, getting over
the exhaustion thatyour work causes you.
You got to travel.
So, you're a big traveler.
(26:55):
I've heard you mentionSpain, this year you were
in Bali, and in Colombia.
Where's your favorite place?
That's a tough one.
So you mentioned Spain.
I love Sevilla.
I have a real love for thatplace, but put me in front
of any ocean and I'm happy.
You're a water baby too.
I just want to sit by the ocean.
(27:16):
That's all I want.
There's something about thetides and the movement of water
that for me is so restorative.
Restorative! That was the word Iwas looking for, not
rehabilitating, restoring.
That too, why not?
So I get exactly what you mean.
We are about to talkabout the Middle East.
This episode was recordedin late August, 2023, which
(27:39):
was more than a month beforewhat happened on October 7th.
That attack led to thedeath of 1, 200 Israelis.
That's not a small number.
Since then, Time Magazine hasreported that the death toll
of Palestinians as of February19th, when I'm recording this
intro, is about 29, 000 people.
(28:01):
An entire generation of peopleare being wiped off the face of
the earth in real time, rightnow, before our very eyes.
By the way, even though we'reconcentrating on Israel and
Palestine, don't be fooled.
Genocidal conflicts like thisare happening all the time,
thanks in part to the effectsof US policies around the world.
(28:24):
This isn't just limitedto outside our borders
or even to times of war.
In case you missed it, anotherguest and activist, Talia
Mole, made reference to thedisgusting government mandated
practice of forced sterilizationof Puerto Rican women.
Our own citizens.
Links to these resources willalso be in the show notes.
(28:46):
The US does notpossess unclean hands.
We know this from ourown history at the
birth of this nation.
I'm sitting here right nowon stolen Tongva land that
dates back over 7,000 years,which is a hell of a lot
longer than the United Statesof America has even existed.
It's no wonder that our currentglobal policies treat genocide
(29:07):
like an unavoidable side effect.
Coming back, in the book youmentioned the blacklisting
that organizations do againstany people who work in
Palestinian issues, anybodythat might be interested
even in what is the best wayto describe the situation
(29:31):
between Israel and Palestine?
I think the best way todescribe it would be that
Jewish people were persecutedfor many centuries.
And they wanted to find asolution to anti Semitism.
So there was a politicalmovement called Zionism that led
to the creation of the State ofIsrael in historic Palestine.
(29:52):
It was supported internationallyright after the Holocaust.
And a nation was created toensure the safety of Jewish
people, which they deservesafety and security, but
it came at the expense ofPalestinians who do not
have safety and security.
And even saying thatis controversial.
It is a fact, but even sayingthat, any kind of criticism
(30:15):
of the Israeli government canlead to silencing, accusations
that you're being anti Semitic,and it was created in 1948.
In 1967, the remaining partsof Palestine became occupied,
and there's been, yes, there'sbeen violence, but it's
portrayed as, oh, on bothsides, or Palestinian-led,
that they're terrorists.
(30:37):
And so in my work, I workon Islamophobia, I work on
anti Muslim racism, and I'veavoided this topic for a long
time, because I don't wantto be harassed, attacked.
I don't want to be doxxed.
I don't want death threats.
Nobody wants that.
But when you're doingthis kind of work, in a
sense, all roads lead backto Israel and Palestine.
(30:58):
There's a very deep connectionwhen you're talking about
media representations, thisfigure of the terrorists
that we're all familiar with.
A lot of that has roots in howthis conflict has played out.
In portraying Palestiniansas the problem.
And so anyone who dares to pointout the fact of the current
(31:20):
situation between Israel andPalestine can face blacklisting,
future job prospects disappear.
Something that we all needto take awareness of, and
your book does a good job ofdriving home, that zealotry,
no matter what it looks like,the zeal with which we are
all willing to jump on boardan idea once it starts going
(31:42):
viral, or the appeal of that,the mob mentality, instead of
examining what is actually beingsold to us as the audience?
The audience of consumers,what are we being sold?
Terrorism is such a, a meatyword that immediately throws
up everybody's hackles, whetherit's you're being accused of
(32:04):
it or accusing someone of it.
Once you throw up thatword, all bets are off.
The inflammation of the subjectis past a point of returning
to examining something alittle bit more intensely.
Yes, you put Arab, Muslim,and terrorism together and
it evokes something, fear.
Right, yeah.
(32:24):
They're out to get us.
You can't reasonwith these people.
They're backwards.
They're violent.
It brings up all of that andit's because of political
situations over decades.
It's not as if 9/11happened and suddenly this
emerged out of the blue.
Right.
We see the seeds, it'll IsraeliPalestinian conflict starting
in 1948 of that figure.
(32:47):
And it has developed since.
And movies intentionally or not,have ripped from headlines and
told us these stories over time.
So we have so many storiesabout Arabs and Muslims
as terrorists, right?
And so it's easy to believethat is, that is who they are.
A lot of what I lookat are logics that
legitimize inequality.
(33:08):
So one of the logics isthey're out to get us.
This is a nationalsecurity issue.
Muslim ban.
It's a racist policy, but thereare logics that communicate
these people are dangerous.
You want them coming inhere and blowing you up.
So a lot of my work is tryingto figure out what are these
logics that seem logical toa lot of people, but that are
(33:29):
actually overgeneralizing andhave enormous consequences
on people's lives.
It is not inconsequentialthat 150, 000 Iraqis were
killed, when they had nothingto do with September 11th.
3, 000 people werekilled on 9/11.
How many other peopledied because of that
particular incident?
And we as a nation weresold a story that made us
(33:53):
okay with going into Iraq.
Yes.
And the people who perpetratedthat knew what they were doing.
We were told they were weaponsof mass destruction in Iraq.
And that Saddam Hussein, who wasa dictator, had the will to use
them against the United States.
And then it turned outthere were no weapons
(34:14):
of mass destruction.
No, no.
We were sold a lie.
Yes.
And so we need to examine, let'suse this as a, as a greater
microscope to examine all thethings were sold by the media.
I talk about this a lot.
You have to be carefulwhat you consume.
From the media, whether itis anti this, pro that, you
(34:38):
have to be very, very carefulwhat you're being sold, what
you're being fed, becauseit could also do a number
just on the individual.
We doom scroll, and thatcan really do a number
on your mental health.
But when we're sold bigger lies,and everybody accepts it, you
talk about racial gaslightingin the book, that's an entire
(35:00):
chapter, and how the U.
S.
has a policy as the stateto not punish officers,
for example, for the waythey treat black people.
We've seen this reported overand over and over and over.
There is a policy.
The way that you just describea crisis, the pattern that
(35:22):
happens, a school shooting,for example, wow, we're just
hitting all of it today.
But there was recently aschool shooting at Chapel
Hill, another university.
There is a response predictably.
One side is saying X, theother side is saying Y,
more gun control, guns arenecessary, whatever it is.
And then it all gets flattenedout until the next crisis.
(35:47):
And you talk about how thesame thing happens with acts
of terror or with things thatcan be called terrorism and
how also that's reported somuch more often than violence
against Muslims or Arabs.
Because again, the buzzword,they're the terrorists, they
deserved it, versus, these arejust innocent people because
(36:09):
the media has made it so thatwe don't see them that way.
We don't see people anymore.
We see caricatures.
And so again, we have tobe very careful of what
we consume and critical,critical of what we consume.
Yes.
Because that is achoice you get to make.
You get to choosewhat you're consuming.
I hope when you are consumingthis, that it's, it's helping
(36:32):
you understand the way thatour world works and all of the
bullshit we have to dismantle.
Because this isculturally ingrained.
It is.
You talk about that in thebook, that the character
of the terrorist is sonormalized that it's really
hard to break out of that.
But we have to choose, right?
(36:52):
We have to choose to do that.
And one of the ways that thatis possible is through more
representation which is alwaysmy thing with childfree people!
Yes! Which, you know, run thegamut of white Christian men
who are at the, you know,top of the pyramid in our
society to the rest of us whocan look like you and me or
(37:14):
green or purple or whatever.
So they're not the same.
I'm not trying to conflatethat the racialization of anti
Muslim crimes and policiesare the same as the way that
childfree people are kept outof society, but there are some
parallels and that's why Iwanted to talk to you today.
Yes.
(37:34):
Because you are alsoa childfree person.
I am, and I, I agree thatthere are some parallels.
You know, my book is notabout gun violence, but I
think the concept that wetend to deal with issues when
there's a crisis, and thenwhen the crisis goes away,
we don't deal with any, weknow there's a problem with
gun violence in this country.
It's not every single dayon the news, and we're
(37:55):
concerned, and then we're not.
And same thing with all kindsof racism and discrimination.
Regarding the childfreerepresentation, I mean, the
goal in my book with lookingat representations is that
the goal is Muslims arepeople, like any other people.
There are 1.
8 or 2 billionMuslims in the world.
(38:16):
You can't say they'reall like this.
And so with any group that'sstereotyped, including childfree
people who have been portrayedas either pathological, like
in Fatal Attraction, or like,there are a lot of workaholics.
Or stupid people!Stupid people, people who
can't take care of themselves,selfish and self obsessed
(38:37):
or they're workaholicsand unfit to be mothers.
So, I mean, I feel like withall of these stereotypes,
the goal is like, it's.
Guess what?
We're people, too, whocan live fulfilling lives.
Thank you.
The fulfilling lives part,that's my favorite thing.
Because I'm living my bestlife, that's why that's
(38:59):
the name of this podcast.
And I assume you are alsoliving your best life with
your husband and your cats.
Yes.
So, you moved to LA aboutfour years ago, pre pandemic,
teaching at one of themost hallowed institutions
in California, if not theworld, a private university.
Do they have any rules againstanti Palestinian activism?
(39:21):
Because the publicuniversities in California do.
Right, the publicuniversities do.
So I wouldn't say the privateone has any rules, but they
face a lot of pressure.
So it's not a good place to doPalestinian rights activism.
Is there anywhere that isa good place to do that?
No, there's, I can'tgive you one, no.
No, no.
There are severe consequencesfor that at universities
(39:43):
across the country.
I highly recommend you readchapter five of her book,
again, Broken, The FailedPromise of Muslim Inclusion,
to understand why that is.
She makes a very, very, verygood argument about this.
You make an excellent argument.
Thank you.
It will piss you off,and that's just the
price, plus 30 to buy it.
(40:04):
There will be a linkin the show notes.
So then what's next?
So I have to say I'm stillfiguring that out, and I
am working on something.
Ooh! Mm hmm.
I don't know if Ican say it here yet.
How long did ittake to write this?
Ten years.
Yeah, it seemedlike it would have.
(40:24):
I would love to have you backagain to further explore some of
these themes and also talk abouthow being childfree has looked
in your life because we didn'ttouch on that and that's okay
because it's about dismantlingthe toxic culture of bullshit
with a side of childfree.
Love it.
Thank you so muchfor being here.
(40:44):
I admire you.
I admire your work.
I would love to read more.
I'm going to go getyour other book.
So the first book is from 9/11,10 years plus, and then this
one is the 10 years after that.
So I kind of read them out oforder, but you did just release
this one last year, right?
I did.
Well, again, linkin the show notes.
(41:05):
Go get it.
It's going to be an affiliatelink, so it helps me and
it helps the professor.
So, it's win winwin for everybody.
So, Evelyn, would youplease take us home?
That's a burrito.
Hey, mira, if this episodemade you feel some kind
of way, dígame, DM me onInstagram, or send me a text.
(41:26):
You can do that rightfrom your phone.
If you want to be a gueston the show and put your
story out there too, checkout the guest form on my
website at pauletterato.
com slash guest.
Yep, just my name, pauletterato.
com slash guest.
Y no se te olvide quehay más perks when you
join the newsletter.
Todos estos links estánen los show notes.
(41:48):
Muchísimas gracias foryour support y hasta la
próxima vez, cuídate bien.
Buen dia, mi gente, andwelcome to La Vida Más
Chévere de Childfree Latinas.
The only Spanglish podcastfor childfree Latinas y
Latines, helping us liberateourselves from the toxic
cultural brainwashing we allgrew up with, so that we can
design our best lives instead.
I'm your host andresident childfree
Latina, Paulette Erato.
(00:24):
By now, you've undoubtedlyheard about what happened
to the UnitedHealthcare CEO.
As the kids say, he got murkedwalking into an investor
meeting, where they wereabout to celebrate their
twenty b b b billion in profitthis year by doing what?
Denying more claims thananyone else in the industry.
(00:45):
Claims like forcing diabetics togo without insulin, for example,
because it made them more money.
Because fuck the little people,you know, the rest of us?
In the aftermath, we're seeinga serious divide between how the
news is framing the story andhow the rest of us are reacting.
The media is painting this asa shocking act of violence,
(01:08):
but was it really shocking?
Because on socials, out inthe streets, and around the
local water coolers, it'smore about, well, who's next?
Because for a lot of us,this act wasn't so much a
crime as it was justice.
It's a natural response todecades of systemic inequality,
(01:28):
denied care, and liveslost due to craven, profit
driven healthcare decisions.
That CEO is basically asymbol of everything wrong
with our system and thismoment right now illustrates
just how deeply distrust andfrustration with corporate
power run in our society.
We're getting really,really tired of it.
(01:51):
Now, I haven't even mentionedhis name, but you know
who I'm talking about.
You know what his name is.
But do you know whoDominique Brown is?
Because she died the next dayfrom negligence that led to
anaphylaxis at a sponsoredluncheon right here in LA.
Maybe you've heard of theBlack Girl Disney platform
because that was her.
(02:11):
Say her name, Dominique Brown.
Dominique's death highlightsa horrifying reality.
When it comes to marginalizedcommunities, even life
and death can be dismissedas unworthy of attention.
These two events, one that'sdominating the news cycle
and one that's barely beingmentioned, are showing us
how media narratives shapeour understanding of whose
(02:35):
lives matter, whose deathsare worth mourning, and whose
humanity is even acknowledged.
It's disgusting.
And yet Dominique's storyis the one we should be
focusing on because lifethreatening allergic reactions
are super common in the US.
Millionaires, they're notlistening to this show, but
(02:57):
one in 50 of us have seriousallergies with at least 25
percent of the rest of youdealing with at least the
annoyance of seasonal allergies.
Me, I have to carry anEpiPen on me at all times.
Wanna hear a sickjoke about that?
Sometimes I can't even geta new one when they expire
because pharmacies just don'tkeep EpiPens on hand, despite
(03:21):
how often they might be needed.
That is your profitdriven healthcare at work,
churning out the billions.
This stark contrast betweenhow the media tells a story
and how the rest of usexperience the world isn't new.
This topic isn't new.
It's the same kind of disconnectwe see when marginalized
(03:42):
communities are misrepresentedand their humanity diminished,
like casting Haitiansas dog eaters or calling
all immigrants illegals.
That makes it easy toignore their voices.
This is the same bias thatProfessor Evelyn Alsultany
calls out in her work andthe same systems we talked
(04:03):
about in this episode.
And that's why I've chosenit, which originally came
out in February 2024,to re-release today.
So as you listen to thisepisode, think about how the
media narratives shape ourunderstanding of right and
wrong, of who gets to be avictim and who doesn't, and
how those narratives impactmarginalized groups in very
(04:24):
real and very dangerous ways..
I'm not going to mincewords, mis amigues.
Today's episode is goingto be a tough listen.
It's subject matterthat can be polarizing.
And yet I'm going to askyou to listen to it anyway,
because you can do hard things.
You can push outsideof your comfort zone.
(04:45):
That is, after all, howyou design your best life.
I asked my guest, ProfessorEvelyn Alsultany, an Arab
Latina, to be on the showprecisely for the discussion
you're about to hear.
I'm a huge fan of her work.
The deep dive she's takenon these really difficult
topics, oof, I'll haveher whole bio in the show
(05:05):
notes, but the highlightis that she's the author of
several books, the latest ofwhich is Broken, The Failed
Promise of Muslim Inclusion.
And our interview is ostensiblyabout Muslim and Arab relations
in the US, which the professoris an expert on, but what we're
actually talking about is thetoxic cultural normalization
of how we view certain groups.
(05:27):
What I hope to help youdismantle and unlearn through
this interview is everythingyou've been taught, not only
about the Middle East, but alsoabout any other minority group.
Think about every stereotypeyou've heard from the
Islamic terrorists to theclassic welfare queen or
the Asian model minority.
(05:48):
Or, the selfish,childfree woman.
I want you to think aboutwhy these stereotypes exist.
It's because they're servingsomebody, and that somebody
is probably the patriarchy.
And I want you to thinkabout what you specifically
gain from perpetuating them.
(06:10):
As a childfree Latina, itdoesn't serve me to support
the idea that, you know, we'reAsians can't drive or Black
women are always angry becauseall that does is further
divide us into insular groupswhen what we should be doing
is uniting ourselves acrossthese ridiculous boundaries
against the patriarchy.
(06:31):
Against the forces that pitus against each other so that
they can continue to fleece usof our labor for the gain of
a very small group of people.
We need to stop doing thatbecause we are not going to get
anywhere fighting each other.
And that's the whole point.
They, the patriarchy, andall the systems that fall
(06:53):
under its umbrella, likeclassism, ableism, misogyny,
capitalism, and yes,racism, keep us distracted
from the real problems.
Not that all these ismsaren't real problems, they
are, but instead of fightingagainst them, we fight each
other, and that's by design.
(07:16):
So if you want to design yourbest life and live your vida
más chévere, then you gottado some uncomfortable things.
Things that mighttax your empathy.
But because you know the valueof self love and self care,
and if you need help withthat, please check out the
last episode, then you areready and armed for this fight.
(07:37):
While you're listening tothis episode, I want you
to think about all theparallels that exist between
this subject and that ofother marginalized groups.
I want you to see howthe tactics are the same
in almost every case,and I want you to care.
And then I want you todo something about it.
There won't be any satisfactoryanswers in this episode.
(07:59):
I think at the end of it,you're going to end up
even more uncomfortable andprobably a lot more pissed off.
And that is good becausewhen we step out of our
comfort zone and confrontthese atrocities, we light a
spark for changing ourselvesand everything around us.
So take that fire you arebound to feel and put it into
(08:23):
action immediately around you.
Listening to this might be hard.
I hope it's hard because that'sgoing to show you that you have
empathy and that's a good thing.
But even if you are on theopposite side of the political
or socioeconomic or hell,even the color spectrum,
from me, I hope you'll listento this with an open mind.
(08:44):
And more importantly, withan open heart because we
are all scapegoats forsomeone else's agenda.
Today, we're just talkingabout this one group.
As a trigger warning, I willlet you know we are going to
talk about terrorism, rape,school shootings, and genocide.
(09:04):
I told you it's goingto be a tough episode.
As a last note, the professoris also a childfree Latina.
We don't dive too much intoit, but check out the Substack
for a short video abouther talking about her cats.
That said, she is yet anothershining example of someone who
doesn't want kids of their ownand yet still makes an impact.
(09:26):
She spends all day, every day,especially between the months
of August and May, educating,mentoring, shaping, and worrying
about someone else's kids.
Yet people dare tocall us selfish?
Today we are dismantlingsome toxic cross cultural
(09:46):
bullshit because my guesttoday is Professor Evelyn
Alsultany, who has a veryinteresting background.
Not only, Evelyn, are youCuban on your mom's side, Iraqi
on your father's side, hada step mom who was Colombian
(10:08):
who converted, but you werealso born and raised in New
York and now live in LA.
That's a lot.
It is.
Yes.
You are also the author ofthis book, Broken, The Failed
Promise of Muslim Inclusion,which is, hey, you want
to get angry, read this.
(10:28):
By the way, I startedreading this on a plane.
You mentioned on a previouspodcast that you were on that
you're always a little concernedabout anything that people
might say to you on planes.
I am.
I've had a lot of not sopleasant conversations from
the chatty person sittingnext to me on the plane.
So, you know, what doyou do for a living?
(10:50):
I study racism.
I hear a whole lot of opinionsabout racism not mattering.
Or what's that bookyou're reading?
Oh, it's aboutanti Muslim racism.
It's just a hard startfor a conversation.
So I usually try to hidewhat I'm doing on airplanes.
and try to avoidconversations on airplanes.
Are you an introvert?
(11:11):
I am.
I would say I'm asemi, semi introvert.
Are you?
No.
No.
No.
I should give somequick background.
So I first heard ProfessorAlsultany on the Wine
and Chisme Podcast withJessica, who, who's great.
And then you were at her liveevent here in Los Angeles.
(11:32):
And that was a panel onrepresentation in the
media, which is yourwhole thing, right?
As much as Muslim and Arabrepresentation in the media.
But that particular episode,which I will link in the show
notes, was you sandwichedbetween two very different
(11:53):
personalities and their takeson Latina and Latino, Latine
representation in the media.
And your face during that!It is, I don't think it's on
YouTube, but I had a frontrow seat to your reaction.
I was trying to mediatewhat was happening.
I was trying to find amiddle ground between the
two, but they both have, youknow, valid, valid points.
(12:15):
They did.
I think it was a veryinteresting discussion.
I think that's part of what'sgoing to guide our discussion
because as Latinas, aschildfree Latinas, both of us,
and the subject matter thatyou study and teach others.
How does that not exhaust you?
I have to say it is exhausting.
And I sometimes talk tomy colleagues because
(12:38):
I'm in American Studies,Ethnic Studies, we all
teach about racism.
Well, look, if you'd like toteach about math, I'm just
wondering, or, you know,sometimes I fantasize about
creating a class that wouldbe lighter, not difficult,
and I can't think of onethat I would do because then
it's not interesting to me.
(13:00):
Right,So I teach courses about the
history of racism in the U.
S.
Right now I'm doing a broadone, but sometimes I do specific
ones about Arab Americans orhow Muslims have been portrayed
in the media, and they're,they're difficult topics, and
I've had moments where I'mlooking at my students faces
(13:20):
while we're discussing a topic.
For example, a few yearsago, I taught a course about
Islamophobia, and I showeda video clip of Bill Maher's
episode that I talk about in thebook, where he basically says
that Muslims are incompatiblewith liberal values.
And I had, I think, 40 studentsin the class, and at least 20
(13:41):
or 25 were Muslim, and as Iplayed the clip, I remember
looking at their faces.
To see how they would react.
And I thought, I really hopeI'm helping them figure out
who they are in the world andfigure out how to deal with
this perception of who they are.
But what if I'mtraumatizing them?
(14:01):
Or even this week in class, wewere doing a segment on history
of racism in the United States,particularly anti Black racism.
We looked at an encyclopediaentry from the 1700s that has
the most grotesque descriptionof what a Black person is.
And also at that moment, I just,I think about the Black students
in my class and what that mustbe like to read that material
(14:24):
and realize that an encyclopediawas defining your entire group.
So I have moments where I'm,I'm, I'm hoping I'm helping
students to have awarenessand understanding of a long
history of creating logics thatlegitimize excluding people.
But I have moments where I worrythat I'm either traumatizing
them, and other moments whereI, I do think, wow, it'd be
(14:47):
nice to teach something lighter.
I can't see myself doingthat because I'm so committed
to this particular project.
I think you have to be.
This isn't something you canjust turn on when you walk in
the door to your lecture hall.
Do you do large lectures,or are they smaller,
more intimate classes?
My typical, this semester,I have two classes,
(15:09):
each has 50 students.
Yeah.
So a bit more intimatediscussion than the 400
person lecture hall.
Correct.
I like 50.
I can still learn your name.
So let me ask themost obvious question.
In your book, you definethis umbrella of what is
acceptable about a Muslim.
And how they areportrayed in the media.
(15:31):
And you said it starts withthe, the patriotic Muslim,
and then it becomes a bitmore nominal, and then
there's the good Muslim.
It basically all boils up into agood Muslim, American, liberal,
whatever those tenets are.
Are you what would beconsidered a good Muslim?
Do you consideryourself a good Muslim?
(15:54):
I have to say this questionis a funny question.
If that's for me, itmakes me laugh because for
me, I am neither a goodMuslim or a bad Muslim.
What I'm trying to do inthe book is reject or make
us aware of what it takesto be included in the U.
(16:15):
S.
So after 9/11, as you weredescribing, this idea came
up, and there's a scholar atColumbia, Mahmood Mamdani,
who's written about this figure.
You're a good Muslimif you support U.
S.
policies.
You're patriotic, andpatriotic in the most
narrow sense of the term.
It's not patriotic thatyou're going to defend
(16:35):
democracy and freedomwhen it's being attacked.
It's you support whatthe government is doing
during the war on terror.
You don't question it, youjust support it, you put
a flag outside your door,you're willing to fight and
die for the United States.
A lot of characterson television emerged
(16:56):
who were good.
They were patriotic Americanswho worked for the CIA,
who worked for the FBI,or on the show 24 that
was on for many years.
They worked for CTU, theCounterterrorism Unit.
And they show their patriotismand that they are good and
acceptable because they'rewilling to fight and die
for the United States.
(17:17):
So that figure came up andit was good because we've
seen so many terrorists.
So, compared to the terrorist,okay, this is a nice character,
but it was very limited.
And so, in the first twochapters of the book, I'm
trying to trace, what arethe pathways to inclusion?
Suddenly, Arabs and Muslimscan be included in diversity.
(17:38):
What does that look like inrepresentation, in the world?
And then the othercharacter that emerged.
This was maybe 10 yearsafter 9/11, was the secular
Muslim or the nominal Muslim.
And this is someone whodoesn't care about religion.
The example I have in the bookis the reality TV show Shahs
of Sunset, which is abouta group of Iranian friends.
(17:59):
Some are Jewish,some are Muslim.
But those who are Muslim,they drink, they party.
They have sex.
And tattoos.
They have tattoos, yes!They behave in ways that
make them acceptable.
I mean, there's actuallyan Islamophobic website
that commends them and saysif all Muslims were like
(18:20):
these people, we wouldn'thave a problem with Islam.
And it's not to criticize,because, you know, as
a Muslim, some are veryreligious, some are not.
Like in any faith, there isa range of religiosity and
devoutness, so it's not tocriticize someone who isn't
religious and who still hassome kind of association, they
grew up Muslim, but it's thatthis particular form of being
(18:44):
Muslim became acceptable.
I want to point out that theprofessor's description of
quote unquote Good Muslimsmirrors what's been happening
with Latines for so long.
Two of the most populartalked about shows right
now are Griselda, about theColombian drug lord played
by Sofia Vergara, and theupcoming documentary on
(19:05):
Selena's murderer, who I'mnot even going to say the
name of because fuck her.
For the most part, Latinas arestill a punchline, like Sofia's
character on Modern Family.
If we're not the punchline, thenwe're probably violent criminals
like in the Sons of Anarchy spinoff The Mayans, Narcos, Queen
of the South, and now Griselda.
But then shows like Gentified,which is about your typical L.
(19:29):
A.
family, those get cancelled.
At least we stillhave This Fool.
For now, what ProfessorAlsultany is describing
is what happens to all theminorities that Hollywood
has deemed to include.
They all seem to go throughthese prescribed stages
that then allow the generalpublic to become more
accepting of said minority.
(19:50):
They have to be introducedin a very specific way.
And this narrative?
It's harmful.
So I've been trying to trackwhat do acceptable Muslims
look like, because it's notjust, Oh, Muslims are welcome.
It's, you have to conformto a particular idea.
You have to fit in this box.
(20:11):
Exactly.
It's patriotic, secular,and it ends up being a
very rigid framework, andit reveals a lot about the
parameters of inclusion.
It's not an open door,there are parameters.
I'm trying to figure out whatare those parameters, what
are the limits, and it alsochanges over time, so trying
to track how it changes.
(20:31):
What I found really interestingis, well there's a lot I found
interesting, let's be honest.
For any of you listening tothis, it is a hard read, but
it is a worthwhile read becausethere are many parallels
between what Muslims and ArabAmericans go through, and any
(20:52):
other marginalized person.
And you make thatpoint repeatedly.
There is violence between blacksand Arabs, Latinos and Arabs.
And it's like, we're allfighting against each other
instead of the patriarchyand the systems in place
that have allowed for this.
And that's always my pointas a childfree Latina,
(21:14):
that parents and childfreepeople are not enemies.
We're all on the same sideagainst the system that has
pitted us against each other.
Yes.
Going back to fitting into thisbox again, it's, it's something
that so many marginalizedpeople have experienced, sadly.
I actually will link peopleback to an episode with Ana
(21:38):
Del Castillo, where she talksabout not cutting off pieces
of yourself to fit in that box.
And I think that is yourultimate point in this book,
that there are all of theseways that you are going to
be judged and that peopleare judged and you're never
going to win the fight.
Because even when you arethe most patriotic, the most
(21:58):
secular, the most X, Y, andZ, God forbid you have the
wrong opinion on this onepolicy of the United States,
you're on a blacklist.
Palestine and Israel.
And that is the lastchapter, and it is the most
infuriating, at least itwas for me in reading it,
(22:20):
because it's targeting youngpeople, college students.
And what was reallydisappointing is that so
many of the examples thatyou gave happened here
in California, which is aprogressive state, at the UCs.
Which are progressiveuniversities and that, that
pissed me off, I'm gonna behonest, it pissed me off.
(22:41):
One of the questions I askedyou is, is how do you not
find your work exhausting?
Which you answered,it is exhausting.
What do you do to mitigate it?
Well, it is very difficult.
In writing this book washard to be confronted
with so much material,so much real stuff for.
I mean, it.
All of my work for the last20 years has been about 9/11
(23:03):
and the aftermath of 9/11,and so we're talking about
government policies, a wholewar on terror, USA Patriot Act,
war in Afghanistan that killed30, 000 civilians, war in Iraq
that killed 150, 000 civilians.
Iraq had nothingto do with 9/11.
A lot of other policies,there was countering violent
(23:24):
extremism during the Obama era,special registration during
the Bush era, Abu Ghraib prisonscandal, Guantanamo Bay prison.
I mean, the amount of policiesand violence that has been
enacted towards Muslims underthe guise of national security.
The amount of people whohave died is really stunning.
(23:45):
It's always hard to siftthrough that material and with
the book, all the chapterswere difficult, but there's
one chapter about hate crimes.
Again, some young Muslimswho were murdered.
There were three young peoplein North Carolina who were
murdered by their neighborin 2015, Dia Barakat,
Yusor Abu-Salha, and RazanAbu-Salha, and then in 2017.
(24:08):
Nabra Hassanen, who was 17years old, was murdered in
Reston, Virginia, which isa particularly difficult
case because she wasmurdered by an undocumented
immigrant from El Salvador.
But reading the police reportsand other reports about the
murder, she was raped, shewas killed, she was left
in a pond, 17 years old.
(24:28):
When I was writing thatparticular chapter, I
would cry and have to stopand then come back to it.
And speaking about pittinggroups together, when that
happened, some people in thepolitical right blamed the
left for the murder and said,well, the political left
loves to allow quote unquoteillegals into the country
(24:49):
and that's what you get.
So they use the idea thatthis particular man, Darwin
Martinez Torres, that becausehe was undocumented and
they said that he was in agang, there was no evidence
that he had been in a gang.
But there are all thestereotypes you have about
Latino people were takingplace in investigating
(25:09):
this particular murder.
And then law enforcement refusedto classify it as a hate crime.
They said it was road rage.
So yeah, there's a lot there andtrying to unpack it and write
about the different layers.
It is heartbreaking.
So, what's your wayof managing that?
That was the question.
How do I manage it?
(25:31):
Please, I thinkit's all important.
It's all important becauseso many people who are on
the activist track, who pourtheir heart and soul into it,
whether or not they're paidfor it, they need to hear it.
I have to say, I don't,like, have a thing.
It's, uh, it's awork in progress.
What I do do is that since Ilive on an academic calendar
(25:52):
from mid August until mid May,when I am on and I am doing,
when mid May comes, I am sotired that I really try to take
a time out during those summermonths when I'm not teaching.
You reached out to do thepodcast and I was like, I'm
so burnout I can't do this.
So I, that's what I do.
(26:12):
I take a time out and I havethese conversations with my
husband where he thinks I'mbeing dramatic, but I mean it.
I say to him, if I keep goingthe way I'm going, I'm going
to end up in the hospital.
Like, I really feel Ican't continue like this.
And so in the summer months,it's really important that
I disconnect, that I'm notgoing at the same pace.
That I go away somewhere.
So the summers end up beinga very important time to
(26:35):
unplug, decompress, and tobe able to continue again,
mid-August rolls around.
Part of this summer you spent,what's the word I'm looking for?
Rehabilitating, maybe,your soul, getting over
the exhaustion thatyour work causes you.
You got to travel.
So, you're a big traveler.
(26:55):
I've heard you mentionSpain, this year you were
in Bali, and in Colombia.
Where's your favorite place?
That's a tough one.
So you mentioned Spain.
I love Sevilla.
I have a real love for thatplace, but put me in front
of any ocean and I'm happy.
You're a water baby too.
I just want to sit by the ocean.
(27:16):
That's all I want.
There's something about thetides and the movement of water
that for me is so restorative.
Restorative! That was the word Iwas looking for, not
rehabilitating, restoring.
That too, why not?
So I get exactly what you mean.
We are about to talkabout the Middle East.
This episode was recordedin late August, 2023, which
(27:39):
was more than a month beforewhat happened on October 7th.
That attack led to thedeath of 1, 200 Israelis.
That's not a small number.
Since then, Time Magazine hasreported that the death toll
of Palestinians as of February19th, when I'm recording this
intro, is about 29, 000 people.
(28:01):
An entire generation of peopleare being wiped off the face of
the earth in real time, rightnow, before our very eyes.
By the way, even though we'reconcentrating on Israel and
Palestine, don't be fooled.
Genocidal conflicts like thisare happening all the time,
thanks in part to the effectsof US policies around the world.
(28:24):
This isn't just limitedto outside our borders
or even to times of war.
In case you missed it, anotherguest and activist, Talia
Mole, made reference to thedisgusting government mandated
practice of forced sterilizationof Puerto Rican women.
Our own citizens.
Links to these resources willalso be in the show notes.
(28:46):
The US does notpossess unclean hands.
We know this from ourown history at the
birth of this nation.
I'm sitting here right nowon stolen Tongva land that
dates back over 7,000 years,which is a hell of a lot
longer than the United Statesof America has even existed.
It's no wonder that our currentglobal policies treat genocide
(29:07):
like an unavoidable side effect.
Coming back, in the book youmentioned the blacklisting
that organizations do againstany people who work in
Palestinian issues, anybodythat might be interested
even in what is the best wayto describe the situation
(29:31):
between Israel and Palestine?
I think the best way todescribe it would be that
Jewish people were persecutedfor many centuries.
And they wanted to find asolution to anti Semitism.
So there was a politicalmovement called Zionism that led
to the creation of the State ofIsrael in historic Palestine.
(29:52):
It was supported internationallyright after the Holocaust.
And a nation was created toensure the safety of Jewish
people, which they deservesafety and security, but
it came at the expense ofPalestinians who do not
have safety and security.
And even saying thatis controversial.
It is a fact, but even sayingthat, any kind of criticism
(30:15):
of the Israeli government canlead to silencing, accusations
that you're being anti Semitic,and it was created in 1948.
In 1967, the remaining partsof Palestine became occupied,
and there's been, yes, there'sbeen violence, but it's
portrayed as, oh, on bothsides, or Palestinian-led,
that they're terrorists.
(30:37):
And so in my work, I workon Islamophobia, I work on
anti Muslim racism, and I'veavoided this topic for a long
time, because I don't wantto be harassed, attacked.
I don't want to be doxxed.
I don't want death threats.
Nobody wants that.
But when you're doingthis kind of work, in a
sense, all roads lead backto Israel and Palestine.
(30:58):
There's a very deep connectionwhen you're talking about
media representations, thisfigure of the terrorists
that we're all familiar with.
A lot of that has roots in howthis conflict has played out.
In portraying Palestiniansas the problem.
And so anyone who dares to pointout the fact of the current
(31:20):
situation between Israel andPalestine can face blacklisting,
future job prospects disappear.
Something that we all needto take awareness of, and
your book does a good job ofdriving home, that zealotry,
no matter what it looks like,the zeal with which we are
all willing to jump on boardan idea once it starts going
(31:42):
viral, or the appeal of that,the mob mentality, instead of
examining what is actually beingsold to us as the audience?
The audience of consumers,what are we being sold?
Terrorism is such a, a meatyword that immediately throws
up everybody's hackles, whetherit's you're being accused of
(32:04):
it or accusing someone of it.
Once you throw up thatword, all bets are off.
The inflammation of the subjectis past a point of returning
to examining something alittle bit more intensely.
Yes, you put Arab, Muslim,and terrorism together and
it evokes something, fear.
Right, yeah.
(32:24):
They're out to get us.
You can't reasonwith these people.
They're backwards.
They're violent.
It brings up all of that andit's because of political
situations over decades.
It's not as if 9/11happened and suddenly this
emerged out of the blue.
Right.
We see the seeds, it'll IsraeliPalestinian conflict starting
in 1948 of that figure.
(32:47):
And it has developed since.
And movies intentionally or not,have ripped from headlines and
told us these stories over time.
So we have so many storiesabout Arabs and Muslims
as terrorists, right?
And so it's easy to believethat is, that is who they are.
A lot of what I lookat are logics that
legitimize inequality.
(33:08):
So one of the logics isthey're out to get us.
This is a nationalsecurity issue.
Muslim ban.
It's a racist policy, but thereare logics that communicate
these people are dangerous.
You want them coming inhere and blowing you up.
So a lot of my work is tryingto figure out what are these
logics that seem logical toa lot of people, but that are
(33:29):
actually overgeneralizing andhave enormous consequences
on people's lives.
It is not inconsequentialthat 150, 000 Iraqis were
killed, when they had nothingto do with September 11th.
3, 000 people werekilled on 9/11.
How many other peopledied because of that
particular incident?
And we as a nation weresold a story that made us
(33:53):
okay with going into Iraq.
Yes.
And the people who perpetratedthat knew what they were doing.
We were told they were weaponsof mass destruction in Iraq.
And that Saddam Hussein, who wasa dictator, had the will to use
them against the United States.
And then it turned outthere were no weapons
(34:14):
of mass destruction.
No, no.
We were sold a lie.
Yes.
And so we need to examine, let'suse this as a, as a greater
microscope to examine all thethings were sold by the media.
I talk about this a lot.
You have to be carefulwhat you consume.
From the media, whether itis anti this, pro that, you
(34:38):
have to be very, very carefulwhat you're being sold, what
you're being fed, becauseit could also do a number
just on the individual.
We doom scroll, and thatcan really do a number
on your mental health.
But when we're sold bigger lies,and everybody accepts it, you
talk about racial gaslightingin the book, that's an entire
(35:00):
chapter, and how the U.
S.
has a policy as the stateto not punish officers,
for example, for the waythey treat black people.
We've seen this reported overand over and over and over.
There is a policy.
The way that you just describea crisis, the pattern that
(35:22):
happens, a school shooting,for example, wow, we're just
hitting all of it today.
But there was recently aschool shooting at Chapel
Hill, another university.
There is a response predictably.
One side is saying X, theother side is saying Y,
more gun control, guns arenecessary, whatever it is.
And then it all gets flattenedout until the next crisis.
(35:47):
And you talk about how thesame thing happens with acts
of terror or with things thatcan be called terrorism and
how also that's reported somuch more often than violence
against Muslims or Arabs.
Because again, the buzzword,they're the terrorists, they
deserved it, versus, these arejust innocent people because
(36:09):
the media has made it so thatwe don't see them that way.
We don't see people anymore.
We see caricatures.
And so again, we have tobe very careful of what
we consume and critical,critical of what we consume.
Yes.
Because that is achoice you get to make.
You get to choosewhat you're consuming.
I hope when you are consumingthis, that it's, it's helping
(36:32):
you understand the way thatour world works and all of the
bullshit we have to dismantle.
Because this isculturally ingrained.
It is.
You talk about that in thebook, that the character
of the terrorist is sonormalized that it's really
hard to break out of that.
But we have to choose, right?
(36:52):
We have to choose to do that.
And one of the ways that thatis possible is through more
representation which is alwaysmy thing with childfree people!
Yes! Which, you know, run thegamut of white Christian men
who are at the, you know,top of the pyramid in our
society to the rest of us whocan look like you and me or
(37:14):
green or purple or whatever.
So they're not the same.
I'm not trying to conflatethat the racialization of anti
Muslim crimes and policiesare the same as the way that
childfree people are kept outof society, but there are some
parallels and that's why Iwanted to talk to you today.
Yes.
(37:34):
Because you are alsoa childfree person.
I am, and I, I agree thatthere are some parallels.
You know, my book is notabout gun violence, but I
think the concept that wetend to deal with issues when
there's a crisis, and thenwhen the crisis goes away,
we don't deal with any, weknow there's a problem with
gun violence in this country.
It's not every single dayon the news, and we're
(37:55):
concerned, and then we're not.
And same thing with all kindsof racism and discrimination.
Regarding the childfreerepresentation, I mean, the
goal in my book with lookingat representations is that
the goal is Muslims arepeople, like any other people.
There are 1.
8 or 2 billionMuslims in the world.
(38:16):
You can't say they'reall like this.
And so with any group that'sstereotyped, including childfree
people who have been portrayedas either pathological, like
in Fatal Attraction, or like,there are a lot of workaholics.
Or stupid people!Stupid people, people who
can't take care of themselves,selfish and self obsessed
(38:37):
or they're workaholicsand unfit to be mothers.
So, I mean, I feel like withall of these stereotypes,
the goal is like, it's.
Guess what?
We're people, too, whocan live fulfilling lives.
Thank you.
The fulfilling lives part,that's my favorite thing.
Because I'm living my bestlife, that's why that's
(38:59):
the name of this podcast.
And I assume you are alsoliving your best life with
your husband and your cats.
Yes.
So, you moved to LA aboutfour years ago, pre pandemic,
teaching at one of themost hallowed institutions
in California, if not theworld, a private university.
Do they have any rules againstanti Palestinian activism?
(39:21):
Because the publicuniversities in California do.
Right, the publicuniversities do.
So I wouldn't say the privateone has any rules, but they
face a lot of pressure.
So it's not a good place to doPalestinian rights activism.
Is there anywhere that isa good place to do that?
No, there's, I can'tgive you one, no.
No, no.
There are severe consequencesfor that at universities
(39:43):
across the country.
I highly recommend you readchapter five of her book,
again, Broken, The FailedPromise of Muslim Inclusion,
to understand why that is.
She makes a very, very, verygood argument about this.
You make an excellent argument.
Thank you.
It will piss you off,and that's just the
price, plus 30 to buy it.
(40:04):
There will be a linkin the show notes.
So then what's next?
So I have to say I'm stillfiguring that out, and I
am working on something.
Ooh! Mm hmm.
I don't know if Ican say it here yet.
How long did ittake to write this?
Ten years.
Yeah, it seemedlike it would have.
(40:24):
I would love to have you backagain to further explore some of
these themes and also talk abouthow being childfree has looked
in your life because we didn'ttouch on that and that's okay
because it's about dismantlingthe toxic culture of bullshit
with a side of childfree.
Love it.
Thank you so muchfor being here.
(40:44):
I admire you.
I admire your work.
I would love to read more.
I'm going to go getyour other book.
So the first book is from 9/11,10 years plus, and then this
one is the 10 years after that.
So I kind of read them out oforder, but you did just release
this one last year, right?
I did.
Well, again, linkin the show notes.
(41:05):
Go get it.
It's going to be an affiliatelink, so it helps me and
it helps the professor.
So, it's win winwin for everybody.
So, Evelyn, would youplease take us home?
That's a burrito.
Hey, mira, if this episodemade you feel some kind
of way, dígame, DM me onInstagram, or send me a text.
(41:26):
You can do that rightfrom your phone.
If you want to be a gueston the show and put your
story out there too, checkout the guest form on my
website at pauletterato.
com slash guest.
Yep, just my name, pauletterato.
com slash guest.
Y no se te olvide quehay más perks when you
join the newsletter.
Todos estos links estánen los show notes.
(41:48):
Muchísimas gracias foryour support y hasta la
próxima vez, cuídate bien.
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