Your Worth Is Non-Negotiable With Kami & Shelby

Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:02):
I am so excited to be back in this space with you.
It's been a few weeks. And I amso thrilled to be sharing this
next interview with you. Andwhile this interview is a little
longer it felt to still keep itjust as one debate about
separating it out and having twoparts. But this, this is to be

(00:24):
held as one in one beautifulcontainer with two of the most
beautiful humans, that I've hadthe beautiful opportunity and
pleasure to get to know and calltwo of my dear, dear friends.
And I am excited to announcethat with them along with Sarah,
my beautiful other friends, thefour of us are, we have

(00:45):
cultivated an in body experiencethat we have just opened
registration. This will beSeptember 22 through 25th. Down
in Springdale, Utah. And this isan experience for those of you
who have been shifting andmoving through so many different
places and spaces in your life,unwinding and deconstructing old

(01:07):
programs, whether it's religion,or relationships, or old beliefs
that you once held, and arecultivating these parts of you
that you didn't even know werethere, and are really trying to
and wanting to step into moreembodiment of all that you are,
this rich experience is 100% foryou and is going to be the most

(01:29):
epic one that I have facilitatedand have the opportunity to co
facilitate. To date, thisretreat is only open up to 14
people. So if you are feelingthat soul, yes, head over to my
website to secure your spot asthis retreat will sell out. It's
Amanda joy@loveland.com. Forwardslash inbody. That's inbody.

(01:54):
That's again, Amanda Joyloveland.com. Forward slash
inbody. I Nbody. Head over andsecure your spot. And I have no
doubt by the end of thispodcast, you will fall in love
with these two women like Ihave. And you will see the
beautiful wisdom that they have.
Not only do they practice whatthey preach, but talk about
embodiment. These are. Oh mygoodness, I cannot wait. So I'm

(02:16):
going to stop talking. Let'sdive in to this interview with
Kami. And Shelby.
I'm so excited to do thisinterview.
We're excited.
I didn't know what it was aboutthis morning. You didn't?
You didn't know. I mean, we'vebeen friends for a whole two
months and you didn't know aboutmy podcast. I knew about your

(02:39):
podcast. I forgot totally aboutthis stuff. Are you still Yes.
I'm totally Yeah, we're a hell.
Yes. Before I knew that's justlike, she didn't even need a
subject. So let's go withAmanda. Okay. You're like, yes,
we can talk. I can definitely dothat. We do that? Well, I am. I
am so excited to be sitting downwith two of my absolute favorite

(03:03):
people. Even though we've onlyknown each other for a few
months. You feel like you justyou're like you're my family.
And I just love you both somuch. And after hearing a little
bit of your story, I don't knowmuch of your story. I really
wanted to have you guys on thepodcast. In fact, I think I
asked pretty soon after we wemet but where we live a little
from each other you guys and stGeorgia and Alpine. It's really

(03:27):
wanted to do this in person, butthat's just not happening. So
here we are via zoom and I amsitting with CAMI Rhodes and
she'll be Smith. And this isgonna be fun because they very
rarely do podcast interviewswith two other people. So you
were first it's a new day. A newday.

(03:49):
You on one?
That's, that's an that's adifferent podcast. Maybe we
should start that one.
Especially, especially afteryour last retreat, ladies.
Talk about anything, needingeverything. I know. That's how

(04:12):
that's how I am. So good thingyou said nothing's off the
table. This will be fun.
So you guys both grew up Mormon?
Absolutely. Yep. In Utah, wherewere
Rhodes families in Utah. sevensiblings. There's eight of us,

(04:33):
just Mormons thick in our blood.
I'm from Idaho. I am an Idahoblood Mormon, and totally grew
up that way. But my familystarted off a little rocky and
not in the church. Then they gotsealed in the temple when I was
eight. And yeah. Did you guysenjoy being Mormon? I loved it.
I loved it. I didn't know anydifferent and

(05:00):
showing up in different placeswith all of these siblings and
station wagons and getting allthe looks when we travel outside
of Utah. They're like, Oh mygosh, that's a whole family.
Like, why are they staring atus? What's What's the matter?
Doesn't everybody have a kids intheir family?
I just identified very much sowith the with the Mormon

(05:26):
religion with the this is who Iam, this is how I function. This
is life.
I have a different experience.
I, I liked it, I could see thatmy mom and dad were very
motivated to get back on track,as they said, and be in in
something that was a guidance intheir life, something that they

(05:48):
could live standards to. And Iwatched them do that. But I also
watch them struggle back andforth going between drinking and
smoking to getting back into thechurch and being active and just
this constant battle for them.
Yeah. And I was terribly boredin church. I

(06:10):
Amanda, I wanted to just beoutside and I wanted to be
talking with my friends andplaying and I couldn't sit still
it was it was really a difficultexperience for me. But there was
something that inspired me inthat my parents wanted it so
badly. So I'm like, okay, Momand Dad wanted. Maybe eventually

(06:33):
I can get on board, but it was Inever fully identified. I always
had questions. I always haddoubts. I always had discomfort.
So it was a back and forth forme. Yeah. And you guys that were
both married in the temple. Hmm,of course. So for camis whole
entire life like not just alittle bit Mormon Cami, you mean

(06:56):
you can be the one who's talkingright now. I was fully immersed
and like I would walk around ifsomeone was drinking caffeine, I
would shame them. They couldeliminate earrings and tattoos
or smoking cigarette like thatis just not okay. What are you
thinking? What kind of music areyou listening to? Why don't you

(07:17):
put on the LDS music like I wasfit into it how I was the
perfectchild and had to implement that
and put that on, on everyoneelse. My little sister wanted to
go to an R rated show and I baldand bald and begged her Don't
ruin your which little sister.

(07:41):
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna namenames, but
one of them one of one of them.
And I just saw I'm like you'llyou'll give up your whole
celestial kingdom. If you go tothis already did show like don't
do it. And she just was like, Ohmy gosh, Kami. She went to the
show, and came home and she wastotally fine. And I was a wreck.

(08:05):
Oh, I was 40 years old and hadnever seen an R rated show. Had
never drank coffee had nevertasted coffee or alcohol or been
around cigarettes. Like I justwas that I was that person.
Which is so crazy. Looking back.
No kidding. You and I would nothave gotten along CAMI

(08:31):
fell out of you girl. Becauseyou have a tattoo. And you have
like, yeah, there's just so manydifferent things. This is
indicative of what happens whenyou say I'm never going to or
I'm like you judge it becauseyou're sure you're gonna be it.
She's now with a very pierced,tattooed swearing rated are
going woman. Woman. Yeah, we'regonna get into that.

(08:55):
Too fat. Back to your question.
And so I was one of thejudgmental people I was taught
like, from when I was littlethat this, this is the way it
is. And if you even stray alittle bit, then you will not
have joy in your life and you'llrisk eternal salvation. And so I
was very hard on myself andeveryone who came into my space.

(09:19):
I had friends say this was whenwe were younger. We were in high
school kami I cannot be yourfriend and I'm like, what? Why?
Because you're just too good.
And it drives me nuts. And I'mgonna I'm gonna do other things.
So I just can't be friends withyou. Like I felt punished
because I was so good inquotation marks and very

(09:42):
judgmental because of it.
Sounds interesting. I did gothrough the temple, but it was a
year after I got married. So youcan put the pieces together
there. You are naughty. Oh, itwas not it was
I said naughty to me it was verypleasurable

(10:07):
I did want some stability andsome structure for the family
that I always wanted. I alwaysknew I wanted to be a mom. I had
one of those little hope chestswith all of the family, like,
contribute contributions of whatmy family gave me so that I
could have what I needed toraise a family. So I had baby
stuff. I had pots and pans. Ieven have food storage in this

(10:30):
Hope Chest. I knew I wanted tobe a mom. And I felt like and
was taught that in order for meto be a good mom, I needed to
have the church in my life. Andso I I adopted that I'm like,
okay, that makes some sense. Butthere was always this part of me
that was just like, I am reallystruggling with rules and
confines and boxes and oh, thebut okay, everybody says this is

(10:55):
what you do. So I was verypregnant. And
in this big huge tent whitedress, like it was a tent. Oh,
went through the temple with andI almost passed out because I
was going, Oh, my God, and Ithought, This is the weirdest
I've ever seen.

(11:17):
So, so weird. It is a littleweird. It's weird. And my sweet
dad prepared me.
Your dad did your dad. Yes, Isaid it, especially if nobody's
really prepared you. It is someweird stuff. Yeah, I wasn't
truly prepared for I mean, Ilove wearing costumes and
getting dressed up. But thisis a little different.

(11:39):
And here's Kami, like I served amission. I graduated from BYU
and then got married in thetemple. Like I was just on the
path. It was around the straightand narrow. Oh, I was clutched
to it cleaning to the iron rod.
I was going to heaven, no matterwhat I was 24 when we got

(12:00):
married in the temple, and I'dnever had sex I'd never done
like I remember one of the guysI was dating. When we were
kissing reached down touched mybutt. I'm like, we're over. Like
this relationships over you arenot allowed to do that. Like I
read the IKEA Leslie strict. Itwas

(12:22):
what I see. Yes, I see you onthe street and there are holding
rod and I see me diving in andout.
Just making sure the path ishere and I can see it. We go
over here tovisual. And that is so funny.
And our Yeah, yeah. So you bothhave several children. How many

(12:43):
children do you each of youhave? So I have three kiddos? I
have six? Six babies. Yeah,nine. So married for how long?
I was married for 18 years. Iwas married for 23, which
happens to be the exact numberof years my parents were married

(13:04):
into. So interesting. Is thatvery interesting.
So when did you both startgetting into energy work? Did
you start getting into energywork before you left? Oh, yeah.
So I started youth for Americaback then then it became youth
for freedom. And so working withthe youngsters in the leadership

(13:25):
conferences that I would put inthe energy was always a part of
that. I didn't know it was thatlater on, people came in and
said, Oh, you realize thatyou're working energy here and
like I am? Oh, no, I didn'tknow. I didn't have that label.
But it was definitely a part of,of the retreats and different

(13:46):
things that I was involved in. Ijust didn't have a label for it
yet.
Um, gosh, I feel like when I wasyounger, I would visit my
family's cabin all the time andI would be outside or in the
water was ice cold water, Iwould be this little six year
old and I would be picking upcrystals and feeling them and

(14:07):
picking up moss and feeling themthere was just this awareness
ever since I was little. Sogosh, I started homeschooling my
kids probably 15 years ago andstarted attending Commonwealth
type of things and was meetingpeople who had shared similar
experiences where impasse talkedabout energy. And I was like,

(14:31):
Okay, this is this is it. Thisis what my world was trying to
tell me. So tell me more, teachme more.
And so I just kind of dove intoseminars and classes and energy
healing conferences and and Iloved it. And it was before way
before I left the church, Iwanted it to be workable

(14:51):
together. I wanted to build abridge where both could work
together. But when I talkedabout energy with a lot of my
church friends, they were like,You talking him out
here, just go pray about it.
Like, that was a kind of a sideslap to me because
it was truth, energy was truthto me. And so when that started

(15:14):
conflicting with, witheverything that the church was,
I didn't understand that, um,like, of course these two would
go together, why couldn't I bespeaking at an energy healing
conference and be a good Mormon?
Right? Now those two coexist andthe the way that the church
viewed energy and energy healingenergy talk, all of it was

(15:36):
looked down upon, and that justreally confused me. As to how,
how they could try to separatethis, I've always been a seeker
of Truth and energy. It justwas.
So that was a huge conflict,when that came into, like, what,

(15:58):
why? Why would they label this abad thing? How could this not be
a beautiful, intricate part ofwhat, what the Church believes?
Right? Like, why aren't theyteaching this in church? I mean,
basically, the priesthood isenergy work. Like, why aren't
they teaching and implementingthis, I was very, very confused,

(16:21):
because I could see, I couldstart to see how it was
basically energy and all thescriptural references when
they're talking about it. Likethere's just reference to it.
You could feel it. And I wasvery confused. Like, this is all
the same thing. Like it's justhere. Yeah.

(16:41):
Testimony of energy work.
Was this part of your like thebeginning of the unwinding, out
of religion for both of you?
Whoo, that's a good question.
That that was probably my firstlike, how do these not coexist?
I shouldn't be in trouble forbeing in this world.

(17:03):
So probably, I hadn't eventhought of it that way of the
unraveling, because it's just, Iwas Relief Society president at
30. And I was doing energy work,like, the different activities
that I would orchestrate we'reout of the box. And
not we're making a quilt. Butwe're coming together and

(17:27):
connecting and looking in eachother's eyes and, and building
the connection and thefoundation and the friendships.
And we're washing each other'sfeet and serving one another.
And when we I would go intoserve a family it wasn't here's
a casserole, I would gather thethe women and say, like you go

(17:48):
and massage the Mama's feetwhile I'm cleaning spaghetti off
the wall while you're playingwith her children out back. Like
it was an entiredifferent way. And some people
really appreciated that somepeople were like, What the heck
is going on? Aren't you gonnajust drop off some dinner for
us? Why do you have to come intomy home and talk to me about my

(18:10):
relationships with my kids? Likewhat's happening here? So that I
just pulled it in? Because itwas part of me and I when I
would getin trouble for it. I didn't back
down. I'm like, this is this islove. Yeah, yeah, it is. And so
I didn't understand what anyother point of view and I, I did

(18:33):
keep that to my core, I thinkthe biggest unraveling
for for me, was I had twobrothers who had, who were
living their gay lifestyle. AndI was taught to that they were

(18:54):
sinners, they were diseased,they were going to hell, they
were ruining things for ourwhole family. I judge them very
harshlyand did not accept them for who
they were and for their choices.
And when that startedunraveling for me, I'm like,

(19:15):
these are my brothers and I'mtreating them horribly. Not in
the not out here but in my mind,thinking that they were these
terrible things like how couldyou do this to our family?
You're gonna leave some emptyseats in the celestial kingdom
flutter, you know, wouldn'tchange about us first, over over
choosing the sinful life. And in2015 when the church came out

(19:42):
withany child of get a gay couple is
not welcome in the church. Theycan't be baptized.
I hit a wall. I'm like thechurch has never come forward
and said, if you're the childOut of a prostitute, if you're
the child of murderer, if you'rethe child of

(20:06):
all of these different thingsthat we called sin, you are
fine, you're welcome. But thisone's different. Why? And that
that really hit me hard. And Istarted seeing my brothers as my
brothers for the first time in along time, and went through a

(20:29):
lot of sadness for how I've, I'dheld them in what the church
taught me to hold them in, whichis, it was wrong to me.
It shattered my heart and burstburst me wide open to say, What?
What is going on with myrelationship with the church?
Who am I? Who do I want to be?
Where's the truth in all ofthis?

(20:53):
So force you to question I lovethat.
The biggest unraveling is I'mlooking back.
So in 2011, I was asked to filma Christian movie about
pornography.
Andit was the role I played was a

(21:14):
woman who divorced her husbandbecause he became addicted and
abusive. And it was her singlelife and how she was getting
back on track in her life. Andit was a three week process. I
left my family for three weeks.
And it was something that I waspassionate about at the time. My

(21:37):
dad was, had experienced pornaddiction, my husband at the
time had experienced it. And Iwas feeling like I was being a
voice and creating hope forpeople. And
I came home after that threeweeks feeling just alive. Like I

(21:57):
was on purpose. I had succeededin something that I had dreamt
about in my youth, I wanted tobe a star, I wanted to be on the
big screen. This was this was mydream. And it was, in my
opinion, something that wasworthwhile because of the
message. But after that threeweeks, I came home and was met
with intense questioningdoubts from my ex. He was very

(22:21):
upset that I would leave ourfamily to do something that I
loved. X at the time. No, hewasn't. He was yes, at the time.
He was my husband. But he hequestioned a lot. And I felt a
lot of shame, a lot of hisshame. But it was being
projected onto me. And he toldme he said, after he watched the

(22:45):
premiere he goes, I don'tunderstand how this could work.
You were basically the porn onthe screen. I was in a cycling
outfit, most of the time, thatwas my role. I was a cyclist. So
I had one of those cute littletight shorts, but it had
basically a diaper in it. Andthen a little I mean, you know,
a padded bum, this paddedand I could not fathom like I

(23:08):
am, I am on the path of findingmy dreams. And I started hearing
from my bishop and my otherfriends that I took way too much
time away from my family that Ishouldn't have pursued something
like this.
It was just conflicting soconflicting in my mind how I

(23:31):
could be out there doingsomething that had this
beautiful message of inspirationfor so many people and come home
and was met with shameand judgment and it did not make
sense. It also did not makesense to me that I've had been
doing all the things morningscripture time and family
prayers andeverything that was suggested

(23:55):
attending my meetings and I didnot feel what everybody says is
spiritual or spear I didn't feelthe spirit. I didn't feel in
line. I didn't feel like ourfamily was getting closer. I was
doing all the things. And itdidn't feel like anything was

(24:17):
ever improving or, or connectionwas happening. It was just a
constant. We have to do thisforce force force force force
because it's the right thing todo. That's how we do it family.
So let's get on board. Well,that's what you're taught that
you do in order to have thethings that you want.
You we didn't you earn yourwords and your happiness by

(24:38):
checking off all of these boxesand then for some reason doesn't
apply and I was a box checkerPro. I had boxes upon boxes and
boxes at the end of the day justso that I could have more boxes.
I did all of the things andstill wondered why I felt that
way. There was always thissomething is missing. And it was

(25:00):
And it was close to that timethat I realized it was me. I was
missing. Yeah. Well, the truththat our worth isn't negotiable.
No, I, we I was trained, that Ihad to earn it. I had to earn my
worth. Each day, I had to earnthe love from God. And if I did

(25:22):
these things, then I would haveit. And I did all those things,
but still lived in so much shameand feelings of unworthiness.
How, how is that possible iftheir formula was correct? Hmm,
great question. Mm hmm.

(25:46):
Oh, my goodness, I love this somuch. So YouTube became friends
tell me like, let's keep comingdown this trajectory, this path.
And you guys know where I'mgoing. So what continued? What
continued from here with your anunraveling and unwinding out of
religion? Yeah. So we, for me, Iwas so excited about attending

(26:11):
some of these seminars where Iwas hearing more and more of the
truths that I wanted to hearwhen I attended church but
wasn't. So I, I, I'm like, thisis where I get to go these
seminars, these classes, thesementors. So I, in 2012, attended
a seminar with my then husband,and Cami Mitchell happened to be

(26:34):
down the road from me, I did notknow.
But she happened to be in my rowof all the universal plannings
she was in my row. And I wasstill pretty good at being
prepared and prepared mom andwife. So I had 16 bags at my
feet. There was probably a bagof notebooks, a bag of snacks, a

(26:58):
bag of jackets, a bag of foodstorage, things that people
might need. So just in case youI'm in our building, because
there was a natural disaster. Idays, you know, you just never
know, prepared. I did take someof those teachings seriously.

(27:22):
Toall did, we all did. There's a
lot of fear with it. So we wouldtake up zero.
Right? It worked. They put fearinto our souls.
Fear is motivating it is and itwill get the job done. But it
will, it will cause us ourhealth and our psyche and our

(27:44):
many other things. It does getthe job done. I'll tell you that
fear and shame are hugemotivations huge for that
lifestyle, which is incrediblyheavy, and different than what
they actually try to tell us.
They're teaching us you know,it's so crazy different than
what God is.

(28:08):
love, not fear and shame are sodifferent. Yeah.
Yeah. So anyways, I had beenwell prepared. And so I had this
mountain of bags at my feet andsweet little soul needed to go
to the bathroom. And I could seethat she had come to my mountain
and was trying to navigate whichway

(28:33):
so I, I'm like, I, I will helpher, I will help her. So I
reached out to grab her hand andhelp her over the mound. And she
stopped. Which was, it wassurprising because I'm like, I'm
actually helping you. And and soI got a follow through with my
hand holding to get over theman. But she stopped and looked

(28:56):
at me and had this perplexedlook, one touch. Like, once her
hand touched my hand thatenergy, I recognized it. I knew
it. I knew it from lifetimes. Iknew I knew it. And so I was
like, Oh my gosh, who is this?
And I flipped around. Andshockingly, I didn't recognize

(29:17):
her physical form and it scaredme.
This Oh,and I'm like, Whoa, do I have a
boogerthere's something on my face.
He was like so shocked. Finally,she gathered herself up and and

(29:40):
climbed over the mountain andand it was a little bit later
where we all were all separatedinto groups of three and she
comes right up to me and shegoes, You're in my group. And
I'm like, she knows what shewants this girl it's a row
I'm saying I maybe, but I lovedit. And I said, I will

(30:04):
absolutely be in your group. Iam intrigued by who this soul
is. So we were in a group ofthree and we don't even remember
who the third person was. Wewere so like, enamored enamored
by I was enamored by herbrilliance, her wit her. Like
she was laughing at my jokes,which, of course, is always

(30:24):
endearing, and dirty.
That's why I liked it.
My jokes and she's not shamingme for my job.
Oh, we were finishing each othersentences. And our sandwiches
like we just hit it off really,really quickly and

(30:48):
exchanged phone numbers thatday. She lived in St. George at
the time I lived in Idaho, so weknew we wouldn't be able to
immediately get together butjust to stay in touch. I
remember writing in my journalHaftar. Afterwards, just that I
had met this soul that Irecognized and I loved being in

(31:08):
her space and her energy just itlit me up. And I was bawling. As
I was writing in my journal. I'mlike, I already miss her and I
just met her.
Oh, that reconnection wasincredible. Well, and I like she
tried to leave that firstseminar before she said goodbye.

(31:29):
And I texted her and I said, youget your ass back in here. And
you say goodbye to me.
I already was so comfortable. Wewere literally just friends for
two hours. I was so comfortable.
I climbed on her lap and justthrows her. I'm like you
don't get to leap. I get to holdyou for two more minutes. And we

(31:50):
just we it was the weirdestthing. It was like we had known
each other for centuries,centuries. Wow, that's
beautiful.
So where does this story go fromhere ladies?
Well, we were still very marriedstill very LDS. So we it was

(32:10):
like a veil over our eyes. Likewe couldn't see anything beyond
what our best friends we couldbe besties that's that was what
the role that we have here. Andso we created women's retreats
so that we could come togetherand play and then also influence
other adults into it was mostlyaround play, reconnecting to

(32:35):
themselves and falling in lovewith with their inner child. And
that meant that she and I got tobe together we would we would
hold retreats in the center ofour travels and be able to play
that way. We alsowould follow the seminars and
and say this one looks good.

(32:57):
Let's go to that one. And mostof them were held in the Salt
Lake area. So we would gohalfway and and have a few days
of playtime at the seminars. Andit just was this blooming
beautiful friendship, immediatebest friendship and I there was
something about her I could notput my finger on it. But I'm

(33:19):
like, I don't know why I want tobe in her space all the time.
But yeah, it just must be thatwe were we are like Soul friends
just soul friends that even afriend couldn't say necessarily
soulmates? Because that would beoh, what? Oh, there Yeah.
Yeah. So I got to keep it to Iknew her somehow we were sisters

(33:41):
or friends or related in inyears, centuries, eons lifetime.
So we made it happen. We we gotto see each other. And we knew
there was something specialabout this friendship and a lot
of people would tell us you guyshave this synergy, like you just
when you come together, you canfeel it on the other side of the

(34:02):
planet. You can feel it on theother side of the universe.
There's something happening whenyou to get together and we knew
that we could feel it.
So how many years did you dothis dance?
Six.
So we met in 2012. And in twosabout six years of best

(34:27):
friendship and trying tonavigate what on earth this was.
But loved every minute that wegot to spend together. We were
like I pulled Shelby intoanything and everything that I
could get her into like the Ihad her come speak at youth for
freedom and she would work withthe kids and we had the improv

(34:49):
night and she would do that withus. And then we would meet at
seminars together that we wereboth being certified like as
different mentors and energyhealing modalities. We were
and just anything that we couldland in the same space together,
we would I was in, at Shelby.

(35:09):
I remember an experience I hadlearned in therapy, about this
holding technique. And where youput your heart to, to the other
person's heart, one person'sheld like a baby and totally
supported. And I would try thisat home with my husband, but

(35:29):
then he it would turn sexual andit could like the holding wasn't
this wasn't a place for sexualanything. And so I would ask my
friends, like, Would you holdme? Would you do this whole
thing? I really think that thiscould be a powerful healing for
me and connection and like, theywould just laugh at me. Oh,

(35:49):
Kami, You're ridiculous.
And I would get shamed for it.
But I knew that that's somethingthat my heart needed was to be
held, just held nothing else, noagenda. And so early on in our
friendship, Itold Shelby about this holding
she had recently lost her papa.

(36:12):
And I offered to hold her. Andshe climbed right into my arms
and just sobbed and sobbed andsobbed. It was the most
beautiful healing and connectionand like I felt her father
within me holding her like itwas so incredible. And then, to

(36:33):
watch her sob, I'm like, Wow,this girl, she's so connected to
her emotions, she can feel herfeelings so big. It was
incredible to me. And then whenshe was done being held, she
goes, Okay, Cami, it's yourturn.
And I just stopped, like, I'mlike, but nobody offers this to

(36:53):
me. Like, this has never beenavailable to me. Are you sure?
And she's like, Can I get in myarms. And I, for the first time
in a long time, I had tears thatwere coming out of my eyes. And
that for me was I'm like I amsobbing here.

(37:13):
And it was this incredibleexperience. And Shelby's like
honey that you're just havetears, but that's not crying.
See that you feel it's Friday,this is for you. But crying is
so beautiful. I haven't had ateardrop

(37:35):
like that. And she's like, Okay,we got some work to do.
We have some more parents inhere that would like to come out
there. Just take it out rightnow. It's a whole flood in there
with me. And in thisunconditional space where shame
and judgment wasn't a part ofit. She just let me be me. For

(37:56):
the first time I felt like in mylife without any. That's gross.
Don't do that. We don't know.
Why would I do like nothing, itwas like you want to be held
come here. And it just was anincredible free space for me to
be all of me. And open my heartspace to the emotions that like

(38:20):
growing up emotions were safe ifI was happy. But any other
emotions were I was a bad girl.
And I needed to go on timeout.
And so any other experiences ofsadness or anger or shame
weren't allowed. They weren'twelcomed.

(38:40):
And so to have her mentor meetthrough that process and allow
my feelings to be felt all ofthem, not just the happy ones.
It was an incredible journey.
And the friendship just grewthere. And I was so like,
intrigued by this woman who wasa quote unquote, good Mormon
girl, but so willing to trythings that are out of the norm.

(39:04):
Like I just was like, Who areyou that you would want to like,
try this new process of holding.
I've never seen this before.
I've never heard of it. But myheart's like.
It's amazingthat this woman who is also a
good Mormon would be willing todo that and not go through.

(39:27):
That's weird. Because my heartlonged for connections like that
so big. And to find someone whowas willing to do it and at the
safety that we created thebeautiful loving energy, there
was nothing off about it. Therewas nothing sexual about it
there. It was just thisbeautiful, nurturing healing

(39:48):
space. And I'm like, I want moreof this. And she's willing to
introduce and show me what she'slearned and I'd like to learn
more andshare what I've learned and have
that experience with someone whowon't go. We probably need to go
see the bishop. Now. What areyou doing? What are we? So
Amanda like with refreshing withwhat you were talking about the

(40:12):
beginning, like, when these twoworlds collided, I had to ask
myself I really had to sit with.
This feels true to me. But theguidance of the Church says no,
like I met with, my husbanddragged me into the counselor
and said she likes sleeping withher girlfriends when she goes on

(40:34):
girlfriend trips, and she sleepsin the same bed. Oh, man. That
is not allowed. Not is not okay.
This is absolutely outside ofthe the church's standards. And
I'm like, I grew up with eightkids. We went, I had three
sisters in my bed all the time.
Like, this is just core to who Iam. And he's like, You have to

(40:54):
stop. This isn't okay. So like Ihad to take this feels. Okay, it
feels truth to me. And thechurch is saying no. Where do I
stand now? Yeah. When, whenenergy working with energy feels
absolutely divine and spiritualto me. And then the counsel of

(41:15):
what was coming in is you got tostop that. What, what do I do?
And all of these conflictingpieces of where do I? Where do I
go? Do I stand up for my owntruth? Or do I just go back to
Okay, someone else said, it'snot okay, I have to let it go.
And so that, like, added to theunraveling of my relationship

(41:38):
with someone else telling mewhat the truth is, versus the
truth is inside me. And will Ihonor that? Yeah. I'm
remembering. The first time wehad spent the night in the same
space because we had a seminarthe next day, so we met at a
friend's house and stayed intheir spare room.

(42:00):
And I remember letting her knowlike, I, I might cuddle you. I
hope that's okay. Becausesometimes I I kind of go towards
the warm body and, and the warmbody doesn't want to have sex
with me. So I will definitelyprobably lean towards you. So
she just dropped everything. Andshe goes, Are you joking? I'm
like, No, I you're like, No.
Okay. Is that a no for you? Andshe's like, No,

(42:25):
I just don't know very manypeople like that.
And I'm like, we both jumped inthe bed. And I'm like, big
spoon. I remember.
And I pulled her in, and I justsnuggled up to her. And I felt
so at peace. And so okay, like,this was just fine. I fell

(42:45):
asleep. I'd like I was just socomfortable. So safe. And she
told me later, she's like, Istayed awake the whole time,
because I couldn't believe itwas happening. I was in shock
crying.
Because it was so beautiful tome. Yeah. And so starting to
unravel, like, the therelationship that we had with

(43:07):
the church versus all all thethings that started to happen.
And that wasn't allowed in mymarriage. Like, I'm not allowed
to question the church. And Iwould have been the first one to
say that to my husband the daybefore. Like, yeah, I would have
told you that, you know, all ofall of my life, this is not

(43:29):
something you can question youhave to just stay here. And I
yet I was the one looking at myrelationship to God versus my
relationship to God according tothe church's view. And I'm like,
that's not the God that Isubscribe to. I remember knowing
that on my mission, they werelike, here's your list of

(43:50):
everything that you need to do.
This is from God and go out anddo it. And I'm like, God, what
do I do? Not this, okay. And Ihad nine baptisms, where the
average baptism for a missionaryin Hungary was one and a half.
Why? Because I was connected toGod. And I followed that he was

(44:12):
he was the one that gets todirect me, not a person who is
in between him and me. And Ihave always known that as my
truth and this, the God that Iknow and grew up with and was
very close with was starting tobe very different to me than
than the one that I've been toldabout and

(44:37):
described in within the therealms of, of the belief system.
I think this is part of ourrelate reliability and
availability.
Scratch that rewind relatabilitybecause there was that, that
knowing that there was somethingspeaking to me that was my own
that was differentthan what everybody else was

(45:00):
saying the authorities, theleaders.
And so to be able to haveconversations around that with
her and have her understand,have someone see me and I see
her.
And to be able to grow anddevelop and follow that with
someone, like a best friend thatyou adore, like, How much better

(45:22):
can it get to be able to do thisself discovery, and find our own
answers that have always beenwithin and, and being able to
learn to trust those and, andfeel like you have support.
That was one of the things thatthat we really enjoyed doing is
learning how to trust ourselvesbigger together, and have

(45:46):
someone to bounce it off of.
And, and still knowing thatthere's this background of
church voice that we get tonavigate.
And I, I just I want to shoutout to all the people who are
experiencing that or have,because it's not an easy way to
go. It's there's a lot ofvoices, a lot of voices

(46:08):
outwardly and inwardly from thepast that speak loudly, saying,
you're, you're doing it wrong,shame on you, you shouldn't have
done that. That's not the rightway. I still to this day,
sometimes hear those. And soit's, it's not, it's not for the
faint of heart. And so I justwant to celebrate all of those

(46:30):
people whorealize that there's truth
within them, their own truthwithin them, and that they are
navigating beautiful waters, andit has a beautiful payoff. It
does finding the godness withina godness within and and just
climbing into that truth. Youcan't you cannot fabricate that

(46:51):
piece. No, that is like thisdeliciousness that
once once we started tastingthat, and increasing the love
that we had for ourselves.
That was a huge part of thejourney. Because until I really

(47:14):
loved myself, I didn't trust andI didn't listen fully. I would
take someone else as anauthority over me, and and
change my ways. Until I reallystarted gaining that absolute
compassion and non judgmentalplace for myself, Holding,

(47:36):
holding myself in a place oflove instead of holding myself
in a place of shame and fear.
And you have to choose and youneed to the new shoulds all of
that started unraveling andfinding that love for me. And
building the trust back herewhen I was little I have that
trust like crazy.

(47:58):
Through the marriage, I stoppedtrusting me because I had an
authority figure who said no,it's my way. And this is
righteous, and this is what wedo. And I would be like, oh
gosh, I didn't feel that. Butokay. Yeah, I want to go to the
celestial kingdom, I want to bea good wife, I want to be a good

(48:20):
Relief Society, Presidentwhatever. So I would give my
authority overto others outside of me. When my
marriage was breaking apart, andI was getting out of it, the
psychologist told me he's likethis is going to take you 18
monthsto start revamping and coming
back into your own because youhave been so willing to give

(48:44):
control over to any to anyoneelse. And so to come back and
find that trust, he's like,you've got 18 months worth of
work, and saying no, andlearning how to come back and
find who you are, what yourtruth is.

(49:05):
And all of this was unraveling.
At the same time, myrelationship with the church was
was coming to a close. Myrelationship in the marriage was
also coming to a close they werekind of happening
simultaneously. And it took along time for me it. I'm a slow
paced person. And this was mywhole identity. So to take.

(49:25):
Yeah, that wasn't a fast thingfor me like this took years. It
was probably six years worth ofmy marriage that was back and
forth and back and forth and somany different counselors and
mentors and helpers and thingsfor me to start seeing that
maybe this isn't what is workingfor me. And then with my

(49:47):
relationship with the church, Iwas 40 years old and starting to
shall be had to train me how tosay a swear word and give myself
permission to just do thingsbecause I wanted to do them and
I couldn't even say the swearword at first you had to assign
numbers.

(50:07):
Instead of saying shit, you'llsay one. And then she had me
practice holy one.
That's not naughty. Okay, let metry again.
It was a ridiculously longprocess, but I feel like my
identity my very who I sawmyself as it wasn't true, but

(50:32):
it's who I thought I was. Yeah,was this good Mormon, girl, and,
and wife, and heterosexual andlike, all the the labels that I
had lived and proclaimed andjudged everyone else for if they
weren't those thingsthey came in for me to look at
and the love that I had grownfor myself, finally was able to

(50:57):
answer that that's not a pieceof me moving forward. So when
you look at all of this, Amanda,like, isn't that LDS church kind
of like the coolest mysteryschool ever?
Like, if you consider for asecond, if we go in, and we
actually find ourselves through,finding what we're not, and

(51:21):
what's not working and wheretruth isn't, and, and have that
experience and come to the otherside, having realized our
godness like, truly, there's alot of gratitude that I'm
feeling. It was rough, and it'shard, and there's still some
feelings towards the church thatI do have and get to be with but

(51:41):
for the most part, I feel a lotof gratitude for that whole
mystery school of the Mormonismworld. That taught me about me.
Yeah, brought me back home.
Yeah, so much appreciation.
So much. It was an awesome. Kthrough 12. Yes, exactly.

(52:03):
Schooling college is really fun.
A little bit more fun. Yeah,yes. I said, I'm for that.
Show. Tours. Yeah, you go. Goahead, like so the breaking up.
Her. Her marriage was veryinteresting. I could see it from
outside.
Show me would call me hidingunder her stairs, frightened for

(52:26):
her life. She'd left her kidsupstairs, she didn't know what
was gonna happen to them. Andshe's breathing in panic. And
I'm like, This is not normal.
Like call the cops. What? Andshe's like, What? No, he just
this is how we this is how ithappened. I just need a timeout.
I would just say that. I justneed to just sure he needs to
simmer down and then everythingwill be okay. I saw it is very
toxic. Andlike, I couldn't like I'm like,

(52:53):
It's not fun. And it's hard. Andof course I can I live with a
guy so I can see his wounds, Ican see what he's struggled
with. I can see his familydynamic and know why. Why he's
like that. So there was a lot ofjustifying

(53:13):
my choice to stay. There was Imean, I was married to a doctor,
and his family was a family ofdoctors. So my family was well
provided forand he was a lot of the things
that I had felt I wanted in aman when I first met him, there
were so many things on the list,you know, the checkmarks knocked

(53:33):
off all those boxes. So I hadfound a good one. And so a lot
of it I just thought it was me.
Like i i There was something offwith me. And I would tell God
all the time. I'm like, God,he's a pretty good man. He's
amazing father, like you get youget to fix me, like change my
heart because I am having a hardtime staying here. I don't want

(53:57):
to be in this marriage. And Ithink it's just my shit. I said
stuff at the time. I don't knowif I said it.
counsel was have more sex withyour husband. Oh, well, that was
later on. But yes, he's like youleave too much. And I did. I
left because I couldn't be inthe same space with him. I
didn't want to be. Okay. So oneof the stories for Shelby is

(54:20):
when she she was having terribleback pain. She was going into
the chiropractor all the time,like her back was falling apart.
And she was looking at shots,maybe surgery, all that stuff.
She'd get in the car and drive.
And as she would drive away. Shecould walk. She was fine.
Sitting behind her back wascompletely fine. We would go

(54:41):
through the retreat. She'd getback in the car and head home
and call me and say oh my gosh,my back's hurting.
My body stopped working. Herbody just didn't see her. It
didn't show up work in thesexual world.
rolled with him it didn'tfunction there. It just my body

(55:03):
was sayingno more like, this isn't this
isn't happening. But I, I saidthere was something wrong with
me. I'm like, you've got God,you've got to change my heart,
you've got to change, you got tohave me fall in love with him
again, because I know I'msupposed to be here forever, and
I can't be in this space. I'msuch a romantic I love so big.
And there's there's somethingbroken. So if you could just,

(55:24):
you know, adjust the knobssomehow.
Wheneveryou don't need adjusting, but I
will let you play with them.
The knobs finally work.

(55:45):
Just fine the work. So it was ait was a slow process of
realizing that there was morethan one person involved in the
marriage. It wasn't all my faultwasn't all his fault. We were no
longer compatible. And Irealized that and I realized I
had chosen into something.
Because it was this fairytale.

(56:10):
Married, you get married to havekids, I knew I wanted all those
things.
I thought I was in love withthis man.
Looking back, I was in love withthe idea of the man and the
life. Knowing what being in loveis now I can feel the difference
when I am looking at this womanand go on I am in love with her.

(56:32):
And whatever life comes withthat is beautiful. But the soul
is what I want to be with andwhatever else is outside doesn't
matter where before it was. Allthese things had to be a part of
the package for me to go sayyes, again, it was a whole all
these things that you want toget back in the church, you want

(56:53):
to have kids, you want to be adoctor, you have a great family.
Awesome. It's the whole package.
I'm in love with it. Yes, I'llmarry you. And so realizing that
I actually wasn't in love withthe person and to take
accountability andresponsibility for that was
heavy, because I had chosen intosomething and it would impact so
many lives now because Ichose into it what for what I

(57:16):
felt was the wrong reasons. ButI can see. Now looking back my
innocence. I was doing what Iknew doing my best. Yeah. And I
was I was only 19 years old atthe time. So just you can be
compassionate and I was solittle and gentle with myself
and how to show me get to showup now and realize that I had

(57:38):
lost myself in the fairy tale Ihad lost myself in the story or
the paradigm of what a goodMormon mom looks like. I lost
myself completely. So it was in2016 I went to a friend's
birthday party, who also was oneof our CO facilitators for some
of our retreats. And she she gotin my face.

(58:04):
He got in my face because I wasI was like already in pain
because my my husband at thetime was in and
he was struggling pretty bigthat I had left again to go to
my friend's birthday party. Hewas furious and angry and
shaming and it was heavy. Sowhen I chose to leave, I was

(58:26):
heavy. I felt heavy. And sheaddressed it and she's like
what's happening and I shared alittle bit of here's another
experience of me wanting to besomewhere and feeling horrible
about it. And so tired of it. Soshe got in my face and she goes
Shelby.
When in the fuck are you goingto actually choose yourself?

(58:46):
When in the fuck are you goingto choose you? Like she was very
direct? Very in my face. Full offiery love. It wasn't she
wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't abullying. It was a let's just
talk straight. Let's just lay itall out here shall be why are
you not choosing you after allthe things you've been learning

(59:07):
after all the things you've beenteaching women after all the
retreats you've been, you aren'tchoosing you step up.
And I'm like shit, shit.
So I went home, that from thatbirthday party, and
after days of crying, beingscared thinking of all the

(59:29):
possibilities, the wettest ofall the things that could hurt.
How could hurt people? How couldgo wrong? How I don't have a
college degree, how I love blabla bla bla all the stories that
we've wanted to stop me.
I chose to trust what had beendriving me for a long time and
knowing that I don't belongthere. My soul is not thriving.

(59:53):
So I two days before my exhusband's birthday, I chose to
tell him I was divorcing himAnd there was nothing that was
going to change my mind.
It was,it was rough. And he said,
please do not tell the kidsuntil after Christmas because it
was in December. And I didchoose to wait and tell the kids

(01:00:14):
but I knew once I told the kids,that it would be even more solid
for me, if I could tell everyonethat it's happening. And then
I'm sticking to my guns.
So that was in 2016. And I wascelebrating the hell out of
Shelby for getting out of amarriage that wasn't serving

(01:00:34):
either of them.
The love that you have to havefor yourself also allows you to
love the other person and saythat we're not, we're not good.
Together. He's not, he was nothappy now neither of you were.
And so I'm celebrating her andexcited for her.
We're still doing seminars,working on my relationship with,

(01:00:59):
with the church, finding mytruth and coming into reality
checks for myself. And about sixmonths later, my husband came to
me and said, I am divorcing you.
I am in love with another woman.
And this wasn't the first timethat that happened. But I gave

(01:01:21):
myself 10 days toto feel into if I was going to
beg him to stayand do all the things that he
his list of things that I had todo in order for him to consider
staying with me, one of wellmany of those things where the

(01:01:42):
church is non negotiable, I hadto be part of the church. And he
was willing to look at hisrelationship with this girl, if
I was willing to do all thesethings. One of the things was
give up my friendship withshelves, like just all these
different things which I haddone over and over and over in
my marriage. Like when he saidthat I needed to do these things

(01:02:06):
I did, I changed them andstopped trusting me. I trusted
him and made the marriage work.
But both of us were miserable. Itook that time in warm water and
next to streams and in themountains and
realized that this wholeparadigm of this eternal

(01:02:26):
marriage that was gonna lastforever. Like
it wasn't it hadn't even broughtme happiness in years. Why? Why
would I want to hold on tosomething hoping that in the in
the celestial kingdom, maybewe'll be happy. But we're
miserable here. Like what, whatin the good night was I
thinking?
But that love that I had foundfor myself.

(01:02:50):
That was the piece that gave mepermission to say, I also choose
out of this. Because I choose Meand I in this sandy beach, I
wrote I choose me put my feetand took a picture. I'm like,
This is me moving forward. Icame back to him and said,
we are getting a divorce whereI'm not. This is not negotiable

(01:03:15):
from here on out because hewould threaten that.
And then he pulled back well,this isn't really what I wanted.
Let's just change this do thisdifferent. It was never, never
something that I questionedagain, I had found my truth, I
loved myself enough to finallychoose me. My relationship with

(01:03:36):
the church was changing anddifferent. I I went and talked
to the bishop said we're gettinga divorce. And he's like, I
don't support you in that.
And I said, That's okay, thankyou for that. Mark is divorcing
me. And it's happening. So youcan not support us in that but

(01:03:57):
it's happening. It's like, no,no, your kids deserve better.
And you guys need to staytogether. And this is the only
way.
And in that bishops interview,I found that my relationship
with Godwas above my relationship with
the bishop and his relationshipwith God, telling me what I

(01:04:25):
could and couldn't do. And I lethim know that this is happening.
Thank you for voicing that youdon't support it. It is what it
is. And this is what's going on.
He didn't believe me about anyanything that I had portrayed.

(01:04:45):
I'm like, this was my marriagefor all these years. He's like,
nope, nope, this No, you can'tbe telling me the truth.
A month later, he texted me andsaid I verified every single
thing that you shared, and Iapologize
So that's nice. We're telling mehow nice but either way, I'm

(01:05:05):
getting divorced because I am incharge of me. I think if those
bishops, like the bishop thattold me you need to sleep with
your husband more and and givehim more sex, and the bishop
that told kami that you need tostay in the marriage. I like it,
there's this tendency to followthe book,

(01:05:25):
the manual, there's a process bythe letter of the law. Yeah. And
it's it. There's no spirit ofthe law, when it comes to that
when we're completely doing itby the book, you know, suggest
to people to stay, stay in theirmarriages, when when they're not
happy, suggest to others thatyou should keep having sex with

(01:05:47):
the husband without anyconsideration of the single
human. They that experiencethat's so unique to a book, the
book doesn't cover everyexperience, every soul every
wound every it's got to be, it'sgot to be led by the Spirit.
The he's got to like the theleadership, when they are tuned

(01:06:10):
in if he had tuned in that day,you didn't and it's perfect, but
had he you would have knownwithout needing to have can
explain everything he could tunein to what is true. And there's
sadness in me that the manualhas taken, taken precedence over
listening to their hearts and tolistening to the Spirit. And how

(01:06:31):
many people have been impactedand affected because of the
constant drilling, trust yourleaders trust your leaders trust
your leaders, but it's anindividual basis. It's not, it
cannot be covered by a manual.
It has to be led by the heart byGod by the soul. It just that
yeah, I'm noticing I feel a lotof sadness around all the people

(01:06:54):
and their experiences have beenbeautiful and perfect in their
Mystery Schools have been justright for them. But I do notice
there is there is sadness, andgratitude. For those who have
chosen into saying no.
Not today, Bish.

(01:07:14):
Yeah, your words actually don'tsupersede mine. Or my connection
with God, that piece that I hadto get to I had to unravel a law
to get to that point where Iloved myself enough, trusted
myself, said enough to say thatactually, I know what's best for
me. Thank you for your counseland relying on on me. For most

(01:07:38):
of my life, I didn't do that.
Well, you look at you go,there's a little bit of a lag.
So kami go, sweetie. Um, Iremember earlier on when the
bishop called me and said,You're going to be the next
Relief Society president. I'mlike, I don't feel like that's
true. And he's like, that'sfine. Go home, and then we'll,
we'll set you apart in threedays. Not much. But I said that

(01:08:00):
I said, No.
And he's like, yep, that's fine.
That's nice. We're, we'll setyou apart in a few days. I
didn't have a say. And I was setapart. I was pregnant, and my
pregnancy went crazy. Wild and Iwas in bed for a huge part of
that. That to being really sadpresident and it was a lot on

(01:08:22):
me.
You know, I couldn't get out ofbed. I still it weighed on I'm
not serving the women. I'm notdoing the you know, and I, I
think about that, like, man, hadI just
really been listened to that itwas a no for me. But it wasn't
accepted. It was taught Yeah,that's nice. Pat. Pat. You're

(01:08:45):
the next Relief Societypresident. And so like, it's
just interestingto, to look at how when did we
give up trusting ourselves andgive it to someone else? What
were you gonna say, Amanda?
Well, I was just going to saythat. I mean, that last question
that you asked is, when did wegive up ourselves and we're
trusting someone else you did,the minute you entered that

(01:09:07):
church, because there is alwaysan intermediate, an intermediary
between you and God within theMormon church and within most
religions, not just within theMormon church. But I find it
really fascinating, thenegotiation piece that you
talked about with your marriage.
Well, if you do this, then I'lldo this or I'm willing to stay
if you do these things, and Iand in some ways, it's kind of

(01:09:29):
how religion actually has set upthat construct to as far as
relationships, and I haven'treally put those two together
and how much we dohave this and I don't know what
the word is, but you can feel itthis sense of giving up more and
more of who we are for the sakeif someone else called

(01:09:51):
yeah, there's another piece ofsacrifice. Yeah. Within the
church. Go figure. Yeah.
Yeah.
ThereYeah, like Christ's sacrifice
yourself for the good of yourfamily. Sacrifice and
compromise. Yeah. And and let'snot be happy while we're doing
it, and how you know, and wherehe brings the children into

(01:10:12):
this, it's like, actually, I'mgoing to do a better job as a
parent showing my children whena happy and actual love looks
like, versus staying in amarriage where it's not happy.
And it's not a co creativerelationship or it's not
healthy. That's not teaching.
Yeah, there's no thrivinghappening. It's just surviving,

(01:10:34):
which is also equal to enduring,enduring, and enduring and
surviving are synonymous,they're the same. And so just
survive to the end. But I don'tknow if I would ever choose
that. We did. I know. But Idon't know if I would realize
that.

(01:10:57):
We didn't like wait a second.
And now I'm choosing intothriving like, I had the
opportunity to choose into it.
So I knew what I did not want sothat I could live a life of how
I wanted it to be. Yeah. Justyeah, thriving for me, and pro
pro thriving over here. So howdid you two end up together? How

(01:11:19):
did that do you mind sharing?
And how was that for you?
Because I mean, this is a hugependulum swing, don't leave the
Mormonism no longer married to aman. And then we're swinging
completely over.
I remember a man having anentire file of all of the

(01:11:42):
articles anybody has everwritten about gay people
eventually taking over thechurch and trying to infiltrate
temples and, and their bigagenda, like I was so on board.
This, I don't even know likethis movement of what would
happen if we continue to supportgay people in their agenda. I

(01:12:05):
had articles upon articles. Andit wasn't until I met a
beautiful soul that actuallyfacilitated my son through a
process that was very healingfor me, for him and for me, and
found out later that she wasgay.
But I watched her and like, justthe most purest love, and he

(01:12:27):
looked up to her and appreciatedher and I'm like, wait a minute,
you can't be gay, because you'regood. You're nice. And you're,
you're like, full of love. And Ilike this. That's this is so
weird, like you can't be andshe's she became one of my very
best friends. And that shiftedeverything I threw everything
away. I'm like, this, this isn'tapplicable. This isn't true.

(01:12:49):
There are so many good peoplelike she would literally be
standing at the cash register,and by the cash, cashier, a
candy bar. Just her heart was sobeautiful. Like, I'd like to buy
you some free break today. LikeI'd watch this all the time. And
like she can't she can't bebatch can be evil, this is just
off. And so it it did throw mefor a loop and that what I

(01:13:14):
believed for so long, was beingpointed out and shown to me,
person after person and more andmore people that I loved was
they were coming out and saying,you know, I am having this
experience and I learned tolove. I actually remember having

(01:13:34):
close friends in high schooltoo. When I wasn't in the church
that were gay and I I rememberthem being so enjoyable and fun.
I preferred gay men over girlsthey were less catty or
something and they'd cut all butnot want sex they were perfect
friends.
But so the the idea of me havingany attraction toward women

(01:13:57):
wasn't ever a thing. I alwayshad the the half naked men
posters on my ceiling and on mywalls I just really really not
me I had the moment adsI had the posters are different.
My mom really wanted me to havethe Mormon ads

(01:14:20):
underneath my big beautifulposter Oh, yeah. I love
so yeah, I we, we didn't havethe leanings. And so to to even
entertain the idea of being inlove with this person

(01:14:40):
was so far off for me. Iremember
driving home one point afterwe'd been friends for years and
having had a beautiful I thinkit was either a retreat or a
seminar or something where we wewere facilitating some beautiful
souls andThe thought came into my mind I

(01:15:00):
am so in love with that girl.
And I about peed my pantsI mean, I mean, I'm so in a
place of love when I'm in her.
I mean, I mean I'm not like inlove with her but I'm in love

(01:15:22):
with what we do. And I love her.
Like I noticed my likebackpedaling, justified.
It's a woman I can't that's socute. Weirdest thing. Like I am
in love with you. But you're ina girl's body. This

(01:15:42):
is weird. We had to google howto be with a woman because we
didn't know.
And by the way, that wasn't veryhelpful.
We said how do you know ifyou've had lesbian sex? Google,
Google. We don't have a lot ofinformation on that. But we do
know you'll know when you haveit.

(01:16:05):
So I we got to kind of navigatethrough energy, learning how to
follow flow and follow theenergy and follow what her body
was asking for. That's kind ofwhere our learning ground was.
Because Google was we hadcrapshoot, right, we had to take
all of our set of beliefs andlet them go let them go. Like,

(01:16:28):
literally to the side so that wecould start to see what this was
because we had such blinders onour on our selves. gret having
grown up being taught that thiswas not okay. And our hearts.
Oh, it's more than okay. It'sincredible. It's It's what
you've longed for, for a longtime. Yeah. So we were

(01:16:52):
navigating both of us at thesame time a divorce. So I was in
my divorce for six months, thenshe got into her divorce. And so
it was an entire years processfor both of us to move through,
they literally ended ourmarriages within a week of each
other. The courts did, it waspretty interesting.

(01:17:12):
But that whole year was, oncethe divorces were in process, we
spent a lot of time together, wehad our kids one week off, and
one week on. So we would shewould either drive up to me or I
would drive down to her duringthe weeks without our kids. And
we would have conversations, wewould have intimate moments we

(01:17:35):
would have.
Just being curious about whatthis could be and noticing when
the shame would come at noticingwhen the stories or the wounds
would come up noticing when thestoppers would be involved. And
so it was a it was a just a anadventure, a new adventure with

(01:17:56):
a new territory, a new place todiscover. And it was breaking
down identity versus makingidentity pieces. Yes, yes. The
church identity as well as thebeing married identity as well
as the heterosexual identity.
Like everything was crumbling.
Yeah. And we're like we leaveall have that at the door and

(01:18:19):
just let our hearts lead. What?
And we would flow with that. Andwe found so much joy. And I
finally got to say I actually amin love with you. And I tried to
deny it. But I can't.
It's very realizing that the inlove experience that I have

(01:18:44):
wanted and thought I was in Inow know this, this is it. And
it was extremely unknown to me.
That's why I was so afraid ofit. I can't I can't be
possibly so well, like you bothhave mentioned especially within
the religion, it's soconditioned that this is wrong.
It's bad. It's evil. It's notyou know, the proclamation of

(01:19:06):
the family. It's a man and awoman. Having children and our
society has not been supportiveof that for
years and years. Yeah, yeah. Andit's interesting because
understanding what I know thesoul doesn't have a gender.
Yeah, soeventually wouldn't like if we
both died, we would begenderless and still loving each

(01:19:29):
other like to limit ourselvesto, I can only be in love with
this certain person and onlyhave this type of process of
marriage. It'sthey advocated as or advertised
it as a way to grow within thechurch, but I feel like it if
you continue believing into thatstructure, it's it. It's not it

(01:19:53):
hinders the growth um,because you are limited in how
you love, you're limited and whoyou love, you're limited in who
you trust and how you how youcommunicate to God and it's very
limiting.
There isn't a possibility forgrowth, it's like we're waiting

(01:20:14):
this lifetime out so that we caneventually grow after we
wait a minute, that's not thepoint. It's, it's I'm starting
to understand as well, that wasinteresting, because the
crumbling of all of thathappened at the same same time
going to our family, our kids orsiblings, or parents.

(01:20:37):
Uh, a lot of the feedback fromthe LDS ones who are still in
the church was hey, we're justbe with Shelby, that's great.
Just don't leave the church.
Interesting. And, okay, here,have you met me? So when I'm
involved in something, and Ibelieve in it, I live it.

(01:21:00):
And that's why I didn't everswear or drink caffeine or goes
to an R rated show. Like when Iwas LDS I was in it. And it was,
it was me. I can't bepart in part out. Like, there's
a lot of people who that worksfor it just would never have
worked for me.

(01:21:23):
I'm in when I'm in something,I'm in it. And so to be in the
church, but be directly againstwhat they teach. Like, no way
would that have worked for me,but it wasn't out of integrity.
Absolutely. But so many in thechurch were like, it's okay, I
drink coffee.

(01:21:45):
I listen to everything seems Ido energy he like. So I'm a cup
of coffee. Sodouble life for me, doesn't
work. It won't ever work. But itwasn't this relationship that
crumbled my relationship withthe church. Those two things
were separate. But once I let goof the church and came out of

(01:22:08):
that my eyes were open to seesomething that was a possibility
that it couldn't have allowedmyself to see the veil was
lifted that we talked about thatkept us binded. Yeah. So allowed
it to be moved so that we can beas little children truly
curious, and wonder andeverything's new, where we're

(01:22:29):
rewriting a story or rewritingthe program.
Letting go of the old ones. It'sinteresting. I'm just gonna say
how grateful I am for anyone whois still in the church believing
big time, but willing to lovethose who have left. There's,

(01:22:50):
there's there's so many ofthose. And then there's so many
who once we left like they cutus off like there. We I remember
going on a walk. Yeah, Shelbyand I had our kids, we were out
in the walk in the statepresident and his family, I saw
him go, Oh my gosh. And I was Iwas in the state president, like
I was in theI did the choir for the stake. I

(01:23:12):
did the Relief Societypresidency for the state, like I
worked with him closely. And Ilove him and his wife, I did
Young Women's camp with them.
And I love them so dearly. Andso I'm like, Oh my gosh.
And they immediately smiled andlooked at and once they saw who
it was, they looked at me andlooked at Shelby, and their eyes

(01:23:35):
dropped to the floor. And theywalked right past me and my
family.
To me, that is not what God isteaching us to do. And to be
very Christ like, I was that.
I was that I was that judgmentalperson when my brothers came to

(01:23:57):
us and said, Hey, I found theman that I want to be with. I
was like, No, you can't do this.
You can't do it and full ofjudgment. And so we felt we've
felt both the people who arefull of judgment and and you're
a bad person now because of whatyou've chosen, versus the people
who still are willing to love usand see us as as people. I love

(01:24:19):
this because it does allow forthat compassion. Like I know
this experience. I know havingthat judgment. I know what it
feels like to be afraid. Afraidfor others and afraid for me to
if I interact with them, whatwhat will that say about me?
To have compassion on thatexperience? Having lived it,

(01:24:42):
like if I hadn't lived it, itwould be way harder to
understand or have compassionfor. So yeah, feeling a lot of
gratitude and getting it and andstill noticing the pain that it
still incurs inside to havingthe being the receptor or the
receiver of that energy.
Well, and we Yeah, even we cantalk to you. Yeah. Why don't you

(01:25:04):
guys both know this, this storythat I have shared with you. But
for me, I got to really look atsome places within me. And I
would love for you to to sharethat about the Kinsey scale here
in a minute. But I had someopportunities to look at those
places within me of Wait aminute, could there be sexual
attraction to a woman? And whatwould that look like and just

(01:25:26):
just even going within andhaving some different
experiences with being spendinga whole day with a gay
man at this hotel, I got to, youknow, I got to spend a whole day
with him and talk to him andcommunicate with them and he
feel his heart and, and thenhappen to pick up some books
that was talking about, I thinkit was the Magdalene manuscript,

(01:25:47):
about the how she falls in lovewith with the heart and the mind
and the soul and not body parts.
And it was just so fascinatinglooking back to just see these
things that I was kind ofquestioning within me, of where
am I still holding on to thosewill know, we pick, you know,
where are my prejudices againstpeople who choose to be with
someone of the same sex. And asI went through this,

(01:26:10):
not long after my son finallycame out as gay. And so as
you're sharing about some ofthese people that shunned you
and voicing this with thank you,for those that have been
supportive, or in the churchthat are supportive of people
who leave, it's, we have noidea, especially in this day and
age, we have no idea what ourchildren or are going to choose
to experience in their lives.
And if they don't feel safeenough to communicate that at

(01:26:33):
home, like the detrimentaleffects that that has on them,
not feeling safe to be them ismassive, and I was so grateful
that I got to go through thoseprocesses within me. So then, my
my son felt safe and, and secureenough to be able to to
communicate something that he'sbeen holding on to for a few
years. Oh, wow. And I'm sograteful because I've met that

(01:26:57):
son. Yeah, he's just a ball oflove and light. He's just, oh,
he's just mute. I'm so gratefulthat he has that support system
that he can honor his truethat's going to change the
trajectory of his life so bigand I'm, I just, oh, he's just
yummy.

(01:27:19):
Right. Okay, so for the Kinsey.
Dr. Kinsey is the, the majorcontributor to most of what we
knew about sex clear up till the2000s.
He was the first person toreally dive into it, research

(01:27:39):
it, he was, he had was, had themoney, he wrote an entire volume
on the man's body. He did videosand just all of the different
studies that that he created andcame up with in order to teach
the world about sexuality, whichwe were in the dark before that.

(01:28:00):
Nobody was willing to lean intothat and to study it and to find
answers. And so when he went togo the his next volume was about
the woman's body, and thecolleges that had supported him
shut him down. And so we didn'tget we didn't get hardly any

(01:28:21):
study of the female anatomy andbody like the clitoris in 2003
was the first time that theyactually mapped out the entirety
of the the clitoris, clitoris.
Really? Yeah, it's insane. Likethe woman's body. We are so far
behind because of Kinsey's workhe was able to do on the man's

(01:28:41):
body and the sexuality, but whenhe he was shut down, all the
funding was pulled and so thefemale body was not able to be
studied for years. So, so muchpower of the universe.
We can't talk about it becauseit's so much power.

(01:29:03):
We've got to shut it down.
We've got you got to pretendit's not even there.
So something that Kinsey studiesand you can the he calls it the
Kinsey scale, something thatbecause of his research what he
he came up with an understandingthat the Kinsey scale like over

(01:29:27):
here is completely straight overhere is totally
same sex attraction. He saidthere is no like nobody just
lands on a place. It is aspectrum that that you
continually move back and forthwith you and many women will say
when I watch porn I want I'mwatching the woman

(01:29:49):
and that's is that bad. Am Iwrong? Am I attracted to women?
He his his understanding is thatit fluctuates. That we're never
or just one thing or another,our judgments definitely affect
where where we allow ourselvesto be. But when we open
ourselves up and just have thefreedom to see beauty and hearts

(01:30:15):
and souls instead of body partsinstead of this is wrong,
instead of labeling it, we, weoften tend to swing on that
spectrum and allow allowingyourself to just what if? Oh, my
gosh, what if a woman wasincredibly beautiful to me? And
I am attracted to her in thismoment? When have we allowed

(01:30:36):
ourselves to be free? There's atime when Chubs and I first
were, were starting to love eachother. There was so many people
on the outside world like, Okay,well, what are you? Have you
always been gay? How were yourcloseted? Were you? Are you
this? Are you that and all ofthe language you're leaning?
Start with when you were littledid you want to stay with GI

(01:30:58):
Joe? College, she loved playingwith Barbies, because you
thought they were beautiful. Andlike all these things, and we're
like, oh my gosh, guys, guesswhat? labels don't work for us.
I was in love with my husband,when that was my lover. And now
I'm in love with Shelby and herenergy and her soul. And it I
don't care that she has thispart or that part. Like, so we

(01:31:23):
came up with a label that worksfor us. It's, it's half H A L F,
human loving fuck.
You're gonna try to label usThere you go.
That's why we even madesweatshirts.
And it's really, really cute. Itis a it's fascinating to this

(01:31:46):
picture visually in my mind thatthat scale, that if we pick one
spot, and we stay there andidentify it for our entire life,
like there's so much of thescale that we're missing, and
that's kind of a microcosm ofthe macrocosm of the world is we
pick one spot. And we go, that'swhy I am. That's where I'll

(01:32:06):
always be, and I won't doanything different. And then I'm
like, but there's this wholeWow, there's this whole scale.
Do you want to like slide alittle bit one way just to see
a little bit just a little bit,even in your sexuality
exploration like, Okay, you're,you're essential. But what if

(01:32:26):
you tried on some king? What ifyou tried on some energy
energetics? What if you like ineverything in everything? Okay,
this is the kind of food youlike and prefer, but what if
it's the choosing before youexperience? I guess that that is
what I'm noticing. If I don'thave the experience, then how
can I make an educated choice,but when I can have the

(01:32:50):
experiences of one side of thescale versus the other side of
the scale and and have somebackground? Now I can say this
is definitely my preference. AndI have I have experienced that.
And I have experienced that. AndI found my sweet spot. And I
loved every day.

(01:33:12):
I didn't need Googlealways go the other sex.
Well, and I do I do want to andwe need to wrap up soon. But I
do want to touch on because Ijust got to participate in your
experience retreat, which was,what, two weeks ago, three weeks

(01:33:33):
ago to, I don't even know.
And one of the things that Ifound fascinating to witness of
myself was one of the biggestpieces we dove into was shame
because we hold a lot of shamearound sexuality and preference
and kinks and that kind ofthings. And being able to be
open and have these openconversations and experience

(01:33:55):
things that why normallywouldn't experience actually
allowed for the capacity to lovemore and to have more connection
with my partner than I wouldhave thought because usually we
shut that down. When we don'ttalk about this or this feels
really shameful about ourselvesour this is bad or this is wrong
or no I don't want to go therebecause I don't want to create

(01:34:18):
you know, ripple effects orwhatever it is. But it did it
allowed for I felt closer to mypartner and had more capacity of
love than before thatexperience. And that's something
that I think is alwaysfascinating to witness right. So
when you're talking about thatshall be of you know, don't shut
it down until you experiencethere is truth in that. And

(01:34:40):
there's always choice and whatwe want to do and when we want
to choose different things, butyeah, yeah, if there's any, any
inclination, any question anycuriosity and within us, like
there's some things that I'm notat all curious about. And in
this current moment, I don'tcare to experience what
It would be like to be, say amurderer. Like, that's just not

(01:35:03):
something that cost me. It's notan experience. And I think I've
actually had that in past livesand I actually did. I have
killed flies, and spiders.
You know, I have experienced thebeetle last night I did see the
beetle. Okay.
She believed it was trying toattack her, but it wasn't it was
very docile beetle, but sheswore it was the killer coming

(01:35:27):
after her.
Beetlebuddy can go now I did not kill
him because it's not mypreference to kill any living
creature. But I have done itbefore and I have experienced
it. So I know in some elements Iguess I have, but to be able to
find if there's any anycuriosity in our hearts that any

(01:35:48):
ping that says Oh, I wonder whatthat would be like. That is I
have a clue. It's a it's yoursole symbol or signal saying
hey, this is an experience thatmight be for you might be
beneficial. So you're gonnathrow this in there. Shelby is
not talking about harming or No,no, no, no, no. Yeah,

(01:36:09):
absolutely. So just making surethat put out that disclaimer.
Like thing is our heart neveranyone our heart and soul never
calls for those things. Itdoesn't so when we're when we're
feeling like we're going intodangerous territory of Oh say
loving someone else like I'm Ijust say question. Question that
you're questioning love.

(01:36:31):
That I mean, yes, question whenthere's a thought in your mind
that says there's there's harminvolved or hurting someone,
please do question that. Butwhen it comes to loving and
exploring and understanding youon a deeper level, what if you
just release yourself, pleaseallow, please offer yourself the
opportunity to explore even alittle bit or just tell your

(01:36:51):
heart I'm willing. And theuniverse is always conspiring in
our favor. And when we arewilling, it will offer us
beautiful opportunities, placethem at our feet, even where we
didn't even see them coming. Andthen until I do see are coming
now.
I love seeing her coming now.

(01:37:12):
But they were just coming off ahigh of experience. It's true.
Yeah, DLR. Although you guys,let's be for real, you guys are
always like this. And you aretruly a beautiful couple. And
the energy that you carryindividually and together is
both of that unconditional lovespace, complete freedom. And

(01:37:34):
just a lot of expansive energy.
That's quite beautiful. SoI celebrate both of you.
So oh, well, I love you.
Just to wrap up, is there any?
Is there any thoughts, advice,wisdom that you would love to

(01:37:57):
impart or give to any listenersthat may be going through? We've
I mean, we've crossed a lot ofsubjects here. Um, so I don't
know if there's anything thatjust as is popping as I'm, I'm
communicating? Yeah, here's thelast piece that I would love to
put in, like, yes, and it kindof kind of goes along with just

(01:38:18):
everything that we're sharing.
So when you choose to leave thechurch, when you choose to do
something different no matterwhat it is, if it's leaving the
church or, or changingsexualities, or getting a new
friend, whatever.
The people who have known you,as one person, they, they tend
to want to hold you in to thatplace. My invitation is holding

(01:38:44):
space for them in return, wereally want them to hold space
for us as we as we'retransforming as we're changing
as everything's different forus.
What if we are the ones who holdspace for them or wherever they
are. So it's been about fouryears that shelves and I have
been able to be together andhaving left our marriages and

(01:39:06):
are in the church,holding space for my siblings.
My parents might the loved onesthat I have that are still very
much believing and that isimportant to them. I had a
sister last night in our home,begging me for forgiveness for
how hard she has judged meand how much

(01:39:32):
like she hasn't let her childreninto my home like through all
the ways that she's withheld herlove from me and I have just
held space for where she was andwhat she was going through. And
look, look at how sometimes itflowers open and shifts. But I

(01:39:54):
didn't need to judge her forjudging me. What if we meet each
other in thehad unconditional love and non
judgmental space that were socraving and wanting from other
people. Let's be that and holdspace for wherever the other
people in our lives, we had somany people leave our lives and
some of them have come back andsaid, Wow, I judged you like

(01:40:17):
crazy and Iwant to be back in your world.
Some of them haven't come back.
And it's beautiful, all of it.
So that's my invitation formyself included, is to hold
space of unconditional love foryourself first, and then and
then all of those all of theways that this is landing on the

(01:40:40):
people that we love, and whoraised us and mentored us and
struggle with us choosingdifferently than than what
they've known. Yeah, that's thebiggest piece of a lot of people
who have left the church arelike, but everybody preaches
Christ, like love, but they'renot doing it. And then we get
out of the church, and we getvery angry and pissed off and

(01:41:03):
step out of this judgment of nonChrist like or unconditional
love. And we step right into itagain, on the outside. Yeah,
we do. And it's a beautifulhealing process, if we can
remember what we were our, ourmain intention was, and that was

(01:41:24):
to actually find truth, and tofind that love that everybody
talks about, but we haven't seenit demonstrated to be that. And
the we tell I tell all of myclients is that they if I can
give you one key one piece thatwill change your life forever.
And it's just one it would belearning to love yourself.

(01:41:47):
First, in that unconditionalspace because we we are the ones
who continue the shame, andtelling the same stories in our
head and perpetuating the liesand perpetuating the false
beliefs in our minds and takingwhat we experienced and abused
as like being abused. Aschildren, we abuse ourselves as

(01:42:10):
we're older. Please be kind toyou notice when you're being
hard on you, when you're beingjudgmental on yourself, and
you're shaming yourself andyou're perpetuating the very
things you're wanting to leave,you're still doing it. When we
can learn to love self first, itwill ripple out and it will
change the world. And that's whywe left guys, because it wasn't

(01:42:34):
working. That love space wasn't,didn't feel real, it felt manual
felt written down by man. And soto self care, be compassionate.
Find where you're bullying andbeing abusive to yourself. And
turn it around. Yeah, find whereyou're lying to yourself.

(01:42:56):
Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, thank you. If someonewanted to get in touch with you
to either know of any upcomingretreats you have, or I believe
you guys do sessions, right. Nowif they're wanting to reach out
to you, what's the best way thatthey can get in touch with you
both?
We are both on Facebook ShelbySmith CAMI Rhodes Mitchell, we

(01:43:18):
do have a, an events page thatwe do post some of our events
when we remember.
Technology's not our forte. Soif you just want to text us, I
don't know. Can we leave ournumbers here? Or is that like,
well, I eat if you want me to. Ican put it in the show notes. If

(01:43:39):
you do want that out there.
Yeah, I'm good. But I'm detectsthat that we follow that much
more than an email or anythingelse. Okay. In the show notes.
Okay, great. I approve thismessage too. Oh, thank goodness.
So do I so mean Shelby?

(01:43:59):
Well, I just love you, too.
Thank you so much for spendingthe time with all of us today,
especially for me. My day willbe so much better now. Oh, we
love you, Amanda. Thank you somuch, honey. Yep. Thank you, JJ.
Did they tell you or did I tellyou? And I'm curious in this

(01:44:22):
space, what is the biggesttakeaway for you from this
interview with them from thewisdom that they shared and
their story of where what theywent through? Just taking a
moment of what really inspiredyou? What were the pieces that
are still kind of percolatingand if you are in that place
where you're still trying todeconstruct religion, I highly
highly recommend either eithersnagging my book, leaving

(01:44:45):
religion a guide.
Actually, if you go to Amazonand you search up leaving
religion, and those we leavebehind you will find my book, as
well as head over to my websiteI created and curated
have these beautiful guidedmeditations to really assist you
in deconstructing God, yourordinances, the covenants that

(01:45:08):
you made. And so that you canlet go of what was and be open
and available for what's askingto come into you. Because there
are things that are asking tocome into your world that I'm
you may be able to feel them,but you can't quite see them
yet. So when we clear the old weallow for the new, I will put
the links down for both my bookas well as the guided

(01:45:29):
meditations, I highly recommendboth of those if you're looking
for tools and ways of how todeconstruct even further where
you are at and heal those woundswithin you.
And, like I mentioned, and likethey mentioned, I'm going to put
down their their cell phonenumbers in the show notes. So if
you want to connect even furtherwith shall be Academy and see

(01:45:51):
about doing any one on one, workwith them, seeing what other
offerings they have coming up,go ahead and shoot them a text
and go head over to my websiteand get registered for our
inbody experience coming upSeptember 22 through 25th only
available for 14 people andregistration is open this week.
So this will sell out, head overto my website, Amanda

(01:46:13):
loveland.com forward slash i n bo d y and secure your spot
today.
And wherever you are today, Ihope you take a moment to
breathe.
To breathe in the beauty of allthat you are the wisdom that
you're cultivating and learningthe gifts that you're
cultivating and learning throughthe challenges through the

(01:46:35):
struggles through the unwindingand unbinding of the places that
you have been in. When we movethrough places like this, we
cultivate some of our greatestgifts. So celebrate you
celebrate and honor where youare and where you have come
from.
Honor where you are, celebrateyour wins, see your wins and

(01:46:56):
have gratitude for who you areand all that you're doing. And
is always sending you so muchlove know that you are not
alone.

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