September 25, 2024 • 32 mins
Why did Jesus have to die on the cross?
Brian Zahnd, pastor and author of "The Wood Between the Worlds," talks with host Helen Todd about the intricate dimensions of the mystery of the cross, including capital punishment, war, and the distinction between divine and human violence. Hear about the early church's evolving perspectives on these contentious topics and Brian's position on how the cross embodies God’s forgiveness through enduring human violence, rather than divine retribution. They also touch on the aesthetic and contemplative aspects of the cross, highlighting its beauty and spiritual significance, while Brian gives us a sneak peek into his upcoming work, "Paths of Unseen Existences."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit.
I'm your host, helen Todd.
If you are a follower of Christ, the cross is a symbol that has
sacred significance to you.
But why?
What does it really mean?
Terrifying and beautiful, aninstrument of a torturous death,
yet a hope of a better life,the cross is a mystery without a
(00:37):
simple, one-sentenceexplanation.
My guest today, pastor BrianZond, is the founder and lead
pastor of the Word of LifeChurch in St Joseph Missouri.
He's also a very popular authorand in his latest book, the
Wood Between the Worlds, hebrings the spotlight to the
cross, comparing it to akaleidoscope that reveals a new
(01:01):
geometric image with every turn.
The cross, according to Brian,is about the nature of God, but
also about politics.
It is about love and violence.
It has shaped art, music,literature and history.
And, of course, as every goodbook, this book and this
(01:22):
conversation is not without acontroversy or two.
Hello, brian, welcome to theLimitless Spirit.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I am fine, Helen.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I was really contemplating which one of your
books to choose for ourdiscussion, but I decided to
settle on the latest one.
I hope this is okay with you.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
It's okay with me.
I like them all.
The latest makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
And I will be transparent with you.
I have just discovered you asan author and so I am incredibly
intrigued and your latest book,the Wood Between the Worlds.
I think it's really a beautifulconcept, so I have not read it
yet.
So it's going to be aninteresting conversation.
I'm exploring it and I thinkit's going to be very relatable
(02:17):
to our readers who may not haveread this book, which that's the
point right To introduce thebook to them.
So bear with me, I will beasking a lot of questions
because I'm very intrigued, I'mexploring it.
So we'll start with a questionwhat prompted you to devote a
book to this subject?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Well, there is a whole story to this and it's
told in the first part of thebook.
But you haven't read that, so Iwill tell you.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I have read that part , so I already kind of know the
answer.
I'm going to tell it again.
Anyway, I have done my homework.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
In 2016, my wife Perry and I were, for the first
time, walking the Camino deSantiago Now, we've walked it
four times in total, but thiswas our first time.
Santiago Now, we've walked itfour times in total, but this
was our first time.
And for those that don't knowand many won't know this is an
(03:13):
ancient, or, let's say, medievalpilgrim path that the most
popular route these days beginsin Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port,
france, and then you cross thePyrenees and walk across almost
all of northern Spain toSantiago de Compostela, and
that's a walk of 500 miles.
So we were doing that for thefirst time, and it was September
14th.
(03:33):
That was our first day, 2016,which happens to be, on the
church calendar, holy Cross Day.
I don't think I knew that atthe time, but in retrospect I
realized that's what the day was, and the first day is a hard
day.
It's like 15 miles and youcross the Pyrenees and all the
pilgrims stay in the same place,because there's only one place
to stay.
You stay at this monastery inRonson's Valle, spain, and so
(03:57):
we'd got there and I went intothe chapel at the monastery.
Then I was just sitting there,you know, after a long day, just
sitting, really I wasn't doinganything, but I noticed the
crucifix and I kind of looked atit.
And as I looked at the crucifixin this chapel, in this
monastery, I felt like the HolySpirit gave me some instructions
(04:18):
.
I felt like the Spirit said foryou know, during this it turned
out to be 40 days.
We didn't know how long it wasgoing to take to walk 500 miles.
It turned out it was 40 daysfor us.
Enter every church.
You can pay attention to thecrucifix, ask what does this
mean and don't be too quick togive an answer.
Isn't that interesting?
(04:38):
So that's, I just felt likethat was some instruction, some
guidance, some direction,specific instructions too.
Yeah, so the nature of thispilgrim path, the Camino de
Santiago, is there's lots ofchurches, so numerous times a
day, most days there was anopportunity to enter a church or
(04:59):
something like that, and I didthat.
I would look at the crucifix,pay attention to it, ask what
does this mean?
You understand, you know I'm apastor, you know, and I've been
pastoring, preaching, teachingfor decades, so I could assume
that I know what it means.
But the instruction was no, askwhat this means and don't be
too quick to give an answer.
(05:20):
And so I just would look at itand think, what does this mean?
And then and then just ponder,and as I continued to walk, I
could think what does this mean?
And one of the things that stoodout was because this was a
walking pilgrimage, I wasn'tseeing the same crucifix.
(05:42):
I was seeing different onesevery time and although
essentially it's the same it'sChrist crucified they were
presented all in different ways.
Sometimes, in some of them,christ was alive, and some he
was dead, and some he lookedregal, and some you could
apparently, you could clearlysee his suffering, and so there
are many ways of depictingChrist upon the cross, and that
that kind of worked on me.
That kind of worked on me.
(06:07):
And so it wasn't until aboutwhat would it be?
Six or seven years later that Ifinally thought okay, I've
meditated on this, I've thoughtabout this.
Now I'm ready to say somethings about what I think.
In part, this means Christ uponthe cross.
That's the origin of the book,so it begins in 2016 and it came
out.
The book came out earlier thisyear, so it begins in 2016 and
it came out.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
The book came out earlier this year.
So, as you, I'm just curiousdid you take the pictures of
different?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah, I did, I did.
I have, yeah, and some of them.
Some of them are in the book.
There's, I think, 16 picturesin the book.
They're either public domainphotographs of famous crosses
and paintings or some of themare my own, so yeah, so some of
(06:51):
them show up in, because thebook actually has those images.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So the title of the book is very intriguing as well,
and the subtitle of it is APoetic Theology of the Cross.
So let's try to unpack this.
What is this book?
Is this a theological work?
Is it a book of poetry?
Is it a mix of both?
(07:15):
What did you have in mind, ordid you have anything in mind?
Or it's just your reflectionson that journey and experience?
Or it's just your reflectionson that journey and experience?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yeah, that's a good question.
It is a theology of the cross,but I am not limiting my means
of communicating theology of thecross to academic prose, or
even prose, non-academic prose.
So what I'm doing, even thoughit says poetic theology of the
cross, it's not a book of poetryalthough there is some poetry
(07:45):
in it but rather incommunicating what I see when I
look upon the very center ofChristian faith, christ
crucified I am allowing myselfto draw upon not just typical
theology written in prose, butpoetry, yes, but also film and
art and music, all of that sortof thing.
(08:08):
So if you notice, as you readthe book, you'll notice that
film and novels and music and,of course, yes, image painting,
that sort of thing will show upregularly, and I found that that
was a very helpful way to beginto explore the depth of the
mystery of christ crucified,because the worst thing that can
(08:30):
happen is that we just thinkthe cross means one thing that
we can sum up in a singlesentence and ta-da, we're done
with it, and I wanted to reallyget away from that, and so so
it's.
I haven't.
I haven't talked about this bookfor a little bit because I've
been gone.
I can't remember even how manychapters it has.
It's got 19,.
Yes, 19 chapters and then apoem at the end.
(08:51):
So, and each chapter is sort ofa standalone meditation on what
I see when I encounter thecross.
So it's 19 or 20 different.
Well, I use the termkaleidoscopic.
You know a kaleidoscope.
You look at it, you lookthrough it, you point it at the
light, you see the colors andthe geometric designs, and then
you turn the kaleidoscope andyou have new designs and new
(09:14):
colors.
And so I'm asking the reader tojoin me in a kaleidoscopic view
of the cross, because the crossis not just one thing, the
cross is many things.
And so if I have 20 differenttakes on the meaning of the
cross in this book, I'm notsaying there are 20.
I'm saying, quite possibly, theinfinite nature of God is
(09:38):
present at the cross, so thatindeed, the depth of meaning
could be potentially infinite.
But I'm going to give you 20.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
And I love that concept, and perhaps this
question should be asked at theend of the interview, but I
somehow feel compelled to askthis now.
You know we read books forvarious reasons, and especially
when it comes to books oftheology or books about
Christianity.
We read it either to learnsomething you know, go deeper
(10:09):
into the doctrine, or we readsome type of a self-help book
that explores an aspect ofChristianity that helps us
somehow heal our brokenness.
So why would someone read thisbook?
What would they hope to takeaway from your book about the
cross?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Well, there's actually more than one question,
I think, there in that, and soI have to respond in a couple of
different ways.
First of all, the cross reallydoes seem to be the very focal
point of human history.
I mean, just take a step back,because we're so used to seeing
either a cross or a crucifixit's ubiquitous in Western
(10:51):
culture that we can maybe losesight of how strange it actually
is.
You know how many crosses andcrucifixes have been produced
Billions.
It's the most depicted artisticimage in human history.
And yet isn't this strange?
The most depicted image inhuman art endeavor is that of a
(11:15):
man nailed to a tree beingtortured to death.
Again, we're sort of used tothat.
But I think we should firstmaybe recover some of the
scandal, some of the shock of it.
And I mentioned early in thebook this image is not in the
book mainly because we couldn'tfind who the cartoonist was to
(11:36):
get permission.
I don't know if my publisherwould have allowed me to put it
in there anyway, but I describeit and it's just a single panel
cartoon and in the cartoonaliens have landed their flying
saucer on Earth.
You get the feeling that thisis their arrival on planet Earth
.
They've got out of their flyingsaucer, these two aliens, and
they happen to have landed theirflying saucer right next to a
(11:59):
large, life-size roadsidecrucifix, the kind you see
typically in Spain.
And so here are these twoaliens, just arrived on planet
Earth, standing and looking at acrucifix, having no reference
point, not knowing what it means, and one alien says to the
other you know what we need todo?
We need to get the F out ofhere.
That's what we need to do,which the absurdity of it is
(12:24):
kind of the humor, but actuallythat cartoon helps us literally
see the cross through alien eyes, that is, eyes that are not
used to it.
And so what does it mean that atthe center of human culture is
this event?
And as Christians, it is, ofcourse, clearly the center of
Christian faith.
But what does it mean?
(12:45):
I mean, I think most Christianswould be inclined to say that
it's where our sins are forgiven.
True enough, and that's why Ithink I begin at that point.
The first thing I talk about ishow we associate the cross with
forgiveness.
But how does that work?
And so I explore that, butthat's not the end of the story,
(13:05):
I mean, and so I explore that,but that's not the end of the
story.
I mean there's a whole lot more.
The entirety of whateversalvation is, however deep and
wide it is, whatever isaccomplished in what we call
salvation, comes from the cross.
And, by the way, helen, when Isay cross, I should be clear
that I mean cross in the lightof resurrection.
(13:25):
So I'm holding cross andresurrection together.
I mean and the light ofresurrection.
So I'm holding cross andresurrection together.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
I mean without the resurrection.
You went there.
I was hoping to hear that.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah, without the resurrection, the cross is
nothing.
I mean, we sometimes think youknow that somehow the
crucifixion of Jesus of Nazarethwas some sort of unique.
It was not unique.
The Romans crucified literallyhundreds of sort of unique.
It was not unique.
The Romans crucified literallyhundreds of thousands of people.
I mean, one of the scandals ofGood Friday is that Jesus was
just but one of three that day.
(13:55):
And so, without theresurrection, first of all, you
never hear of Jesus.
So when the New Testament talksabout the cross and when I
write about the cross we meanthe crucified and risen Christ,
that it's all held together.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So they say don't judge a book by its cover, but I
don't think it applies to thisparticular book.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I hope you can judge this book by the cover, because
the cover is gorgeous.
It's stunning.
This is an audio-only podcast,right?
Yes, unfortunately, it's a shame, folks, You're going to have to
.
You know, even if you don't buythe book, you ought to just go
to Amazon and look at the cover,Although that doesn't do it
justice, you know, to see animage on Amazon or wherever, it
(14:40):
is a gorgeous book and I meanI'm not boasting here because I
didn't design the cover, so Ihave to ask who did?
I forgot the name of thegraphic designer at IVP, but I
have thanked them.
I sent them a little letter andit's gorgeous Now.
I mean, I was involved inhelping some general concepts
(15:03):
and they gave me various choicesand I picked some things, and
the images on the cover actuallycome from some of the art
images that I've selected duringthe book, but still, just the
way it's done.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
It is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I'm not exaggerating, at least on my own behalf, when
I say I think it's about themost beautiful book cover I've
ever seen.
I just love it.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I have to agree, and I think that's important too,
because I mean it's the wholeexperience right.
I know we read books on ourtablets nowadays and everything,
but there is something to besaid about the visual experience
of picking up a book and takingin this gorgeous cover and
(15:46):
flipping the pages up a book andtaking in this gorgeous cover
and flipping the pages.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, we're touching on something here too that's
very significant theologically.
So I'm looking at my cover ofthe book here and there is, at
least in part, an image ofChrist upon the cross.
And we are used to seeingcertain art images.
I'm thinking of Montaigne'scrucifix that hangs in the
(16:10):
Louvre in Paris.
If you look at it and you go,that's beautiful, that's sort of
a natural response.
I mean, people look at it andgo that's beautiful, and it is.
And yet, hold on, folks, howcan this be?
It's a depiction again of aGalilean Jew being tortured to
death upon a cross in the firstcentury.
(16:31):
How does that become beautiful?
Well, it's because, look, letme say it this way, if we had a
journalistic photograph of theactual event on Good Friday,
circa AD 30, we might look at itonce, regret that we had, and
never look at it again.
It wouldn't be beautiful, itwould be disturbing, it would be
(16:53):
grotesque, upsetting, it wouldjust be nothing but the
brutality and the horror of aman being put to death in the
most shameful and painful way.
So somebody might say well,wait a minute.
Then, when artists depict thecrucifixion of Christ in terms
of beauty, are they making amistake?
No, they are not making amistake.
(17:13):
The role of the artist is notthat of the journalist.
The journalist just deals inthe raw data.
Just here's the facts.
The artist part of their taskis to alert us to what we may
have overlooked.
And there is more going on atthe cross than just the
crucifixion of a Galilean Jewunder Pontius Pilate.
(17:35):
Well, it's the salvation of theworld, it's the beauty of God
forgiving the sins of the world.
There is beauty there, and sowhen an artist depicts this in
terms of beauty, it's actually astatement of faith, and I love
that.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
So let's jump into the book.
I know we're obviously notgoing to go through every single
aspect of the cross that you'retouching on, and that would be
up to those that's calledreading the book.
Exactly, but let's talk aboutmaybe some of the most
interesting or surprisingthoughts that you captured, and
(18:14):
do you feel like these wererevelations that you received
during your pilgrimage, or it'ssomething?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
that came to you as you were pondering and looking
back at your pilgrimage.
Well, some of the things that Idraw out would be things that I
basically have always believedabout the cross.
Others were brand new, in fact.
I'll give you an example.
Chapter 15 is titled theSword-Pierced Soul of Mary, and
(18:47):
when I had my original outlinefor this book, that chapter was
not in it.
But I had a dream while writingthe book.
I was about halfway through andI had a dream that I wrote
about Mary, the mother of Jesusat the cross, and her experience
and how that might speak to us.
And so, having that dream, Ithought well, I think I'm
(19:10):
supposed to do this, and so thatin fact surprised me, that I
would write a chapter on theexperience of the mother of
Jesus at the cross.
So that would be an example ofsomething that surprised me.
I like the chapter.
I don't know if this isanswering the question, but one
of my favorite chapters to writewas chapter 10, one Ring to
(19:32):
Rule them All.
Clearly I'm drawing uponTolkien and I'm not going to try
to necessarily unpack thatchapter.
Now the cross brings anindictment toward the
unrestrained pursuit ofpolitical power.
Again, I'm not going to try tounpack all that here, but I
(19:55):
enjoyed writing that.
I guess that's the right word.
I did enjoy it because I got towork with Tolkien and that was
good, and I think maybe myfavorite chapter is chapter 19,
the final chapter before thelong poem at the end of the book
, the center that holds and yeah, I don't know what I'm working
(20:16):
with some Yeats poetry there andI'm talking about how, how, in
one sense, everything fallsapart.
On the other hand, there is acenter that holds and that
center is found at the cross and, in one sense, on the cross
Jesus is reaching.
Center that holds and thatcenter is found at the cross and
, in one sense, on the cross,jesus is reaching out and
holding all things together.
This is alluded to in Paul'sepistle to the Colossians.
So I don't know.
(20:38):
All I know is the more I sitwith the cross, that is, in
contemplation, the more I see,and that's why I do think it's
probably inexhaustiblecontemplation, the more I see,
and that's why I do think it'sprobably inexhaustible.
And so you know, I wrote a bookthat's 200 and some pages and
it's 19 chapters.
I suppose I could.
I'm sitting here at my writingdesk.
I could start today and writeanother.
You know 19 chapters.
(20:59):
It just takes being patient,sitting, not being in a hurry,
not wanting to say Well, thecross means this and we have a
theological sentence, and it'slike.
I'm all done.
Now Next question, please.
I think that is a very cavalierway to approach the cross and
(21:19):
we should maintain both kind ofshock and fascination at the
same time and allow itcontinually to, over and over
and over, speak to us at thesame time, and allow it
continually to, over and overand over speak to us.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Do you think some parts of your book might be
surprising or even controversial?
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Oh, yes, yes, yes, I'm quite sure of that.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Let's talk about that , people.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
The book has been very well received, so I'm happy
.
But I mean I address, forexample, chapter 14 is the cross
and capital punishment.
That would be a chapter that'sonly controversial in America.
It's really not controversialwith Christians in other parts
of the world, but it's.
How do we understand capitalpunishment in the light of the
(22:06):
cross?
So if capital punishment can goso wrong that it's capable of
committing the greatestinjustice in human history, that
is, the execution of theinnocent one, the truly sinless
one, then maybe we need torethink the whole idea of
capital punishment, as in factthe early church did.
(22:27):
The early church universallyrejected it.
Now, later on, once the churchbegins to be entangled with
empire, from Constantine on, andthen we get into the medieval
period, those views change, butfor the first 300 years the
church was universally opposedto the death penalty.
Same with the chapter that'sentitled War is Over.
If you Want it, the cross is acritique of war.
(22:49):
That would be controversial.
And also, just what is thesource of violence at the cross?
The cross is a violent thing,but what is the source?
Is it divine violence or is ithuman violence?
And so I would say it like this, even though I don't see it as
controversial.
The Orthodox Church doesn't seeit as controversial, but some
do.
The cross is not what Godinflicts upon Jesus in order to
(23:12):
forgive.
The cross is what God in Christendures as he forgives.
And so when the son prays,father, forgive them, for they
know not what they do.
The son is not acting as anagent of change upon the father.
The father doesn't change.
The father is immutable.
This is basic theology.
Rather, the son is revealingFather doesn't change.
The Father is immutable.
This is basic theology.
Rather, the Son is revealingwho the Father is.
So we might imagine theresponse.
(23:35):
When Jesus says, father,forgive them, we might imagine
the Father saying something likeof course, son, that's who we
are, you know, think about all.
Through John's gospel, jesusrepeatedly says things like I
only do what the Father does, Ionly say what the Father says.
The Father and I are one.
If you've seen me, you've seenthe Father.
(23:57):
So the cross is not where Godgains the wherewithal to forgive
.
The cross is the moment wherethe sin of the world, coalescing
into a hideous singularity, isabsorbed by God in Christ that
it might be forgiven in mass.
That departs from how Anselmand later Calvin understood
(24:18):
forgiveness.
So if somebody is a reallyhardcore Calvinist, they're
going to find it controversial,but most won't.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Interesting.
This is something to thinkabout.
I don't know what Ispecifically think about this at
this moment, but you know,that's the point of the book, I
think is to maybe, from what I'mgathering, you know, and the
research that I have done, maybenot come to certain conclusions
(24:46):
, but encourage you to think andexplore deeper and really spend
some time in contemplating thecross and what it means to you,
and also look at, gaze at thebeauty of it.
Like you mentioned, there isbeauty in the whole aspect of
the cross.
That is part of worship, andyou don't always have to read
(25:08):
books to fix something or tolearn something.
I think that's.
What makes this book stand outto me is that it could be read
as an act of worship, as gazingat the beauty of God and
contemplating.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Even if you have a different view or opinion.
You know there is carving outthe time of contemplating on the
beauty of God and theperfection of his plan.
That's a form of worship.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I love.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
That I would completely agree with that.
In fact, the 17th chapter, theHeroine of Hell, I incorporate a
lot of the lyrics of earlyChristian hymns, you know from
the first, second, third, fourth, fifth centuries, and it's very
.
I think people will find itvery interesting how the first
(25:58):
Christians sang about the crossand how somehow Satan was
defeated and humanity is savedthrough the cross, and so I'll
let people explore that on theirown, but I think they'll find
that fascinating.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That's very interesting and I suspect that
our readers are going to want toknow more about what you think
and maybe even some other booksthat you have written, and I
understand that there is aYouTube channel that your church
hosts on YouTube.
Youtube channel that yourchurch hosts on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Yeah, you can find all my sermons there.
I mean, if people just GoogleBrian Zahn and spell it right,
z-a-h-n-d, you'll find.
You know, I had a blog.
I mean I don't use it veryoften because I think all the
podcasters killed the blogs andthen the sub stacks.
But I mean you can find mybooks you know everywhere and
(26:52):
you can find the books you knowonline and be able to order
those and what we do.
And the sermons are there atWOLC TV.
But if you just Google Word ofLife Church, you'll find that.
Or Google Brian Zahn, you'llfind I'm pretty active on some
of the social media platforms.
Try to use that as a forum formostly for what I would consider
(27:18):
public theology, althoughyou'll also find me now and then
posting things just on music ortravel or whatever.
That's a little bit interestingfor some.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So sounds like this is not going to be your last
book.
You've been a prolific writer,so is there something else in
the works already?
Can we peek into that?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Sitting at my writing desk.
I know people can't see this.
Here's the notebook for whatI'm working on.
I'm a little more than halfwaythrough book number 12, which
has the title Paths of UnseenExistences, with the subtitle
being the Pilgrimage of the SoulToward Our True Home.
But that's another book andit's only halfway done, but I'm
(27:57):
trying to be done by the end ofthe year.
I'm going to meet with some ofmy editors, in fact later this
week, and they kind of want toknow where I'm at on this.
And I'm kind of funny.
Most authors aren't this waybut I keep everything really
secret until I'm done with themanuscript.
I don't like to just give theeditors here's a new chapter.
(28:20):
I just wait till I'm completelydone, and so they would tell me
well, we're all excited, butwhat do you write?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I said, just wait, I'll give you an entire
manuscript by the end of theyear.
Well then, you're not going tolike my next question because
I'm going to cry into it.
So, judging by the title, thisnew book, is it echoing the
theme of NT Wright's bookSurprised by Hope?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I'm very influenced by NT Wright.
I've met Tom Wright a time ortwo, even had dinner with him a
few years ago.
He certainly influences me.
I can't remember if I've quotedhim yet in Paths of Unseen
Existences, but it really istrying to alert and one sense I
am recovering the hope of heaventhat this life is a journey.
(29:06):
This life is significant, thislife matters, but this life is
penultimate.
This life is a midway world.
We are moving toward our truehome, home in one sense being a
place where we've never been butwe're trying to get to, and so
that's kind of what it's about.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I love that book specifically.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
I like most of his writings, but surprisingly
Surprised by Hope I probablyhave been able to convince at
least 100 pastors, and maybemore, to read that book,
especially when it first cameout in like 2009,.
Maybe I don't know when it was.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
It might be a strong statement, but I like to say
that this is one of the mostimportant books outside of the
Bible.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
that I completely agree, Helen.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
This book kind of made me think that.
You know, since he presents theNew Testament from the
perspective of the resurrection,perhaps your book is attempting
to do the same, but show itfrom the perspective of the
cross and the crucifixion.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Would you say that Ultimately they're held together
, but we can emphasize one orthe other in a particular moment
.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
And so, then, that should give you a well-rounded
view.
Well, thank you so much forthis interview.
I do think this is going to bean excellent read for anyone who
is listening to this interview,and we will definitely post the
link to your YouTube channel aswell.
Looking forward to your nextbook, I hope it won't be too
(30:40):
long before it's out and ready.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Thank you, Helen.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I personally look forward to reading the Wood
Between the Worlds.
Whether you agree fully withBrian Zahn's theology, whether
you enjoy poetry or not, themore time you spend
contemplating on the beauty ofGod and what he has done for us,
the more you become like him.
Follow the link in the shownotes to check Brian's sermons
(31:08):
Google him, read his book.
The message of the cross andthe resurrection is the message
of hope to this world, and weare called to share it with
those near us and those who arefar.
We adopt the sacrificial natureof Christ when we're willing to
leave behind our comfort zoneand self-interest and travel
(31:30):
half across the world to sharethe good news.
At World Missions Alliance, weopen for you monthly
opportunities to do so throughshort-term missions.
If you visit the websiterfwmaorg, you will discover ways
to explore and fulfill theGreat Commission.
Until next time, I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World
Missions Alliance.
We believe that changed liveschange lives.
If your life was transformed byChrist, you are equipped to
help others experience thistransformation.
Christ called his followers tomake disciples across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(32:17):
through short-term missions inover 32 countries across the
globe.
If you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving, check out our website,
rfwmaorg, and find out how toget involved.
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit.
I'm your host, helen Todd.
If you are a follower of Christ, the cross is a symbol that has
sacred significance to you.
But why?
What does it really mean?
Terrifying and beautiful, aninstrument of a torturous death,
yet a hope of a better life,the cross is a mystery without a
(00:37):
simple, one-sentenceexplanation.
My guest today, pastor BrianZond, is the founder and lead
pastor of the Word of LifeChurch in St Joseph Missouri.
He's also a very popular authorand in his latest book, the
Wood Between the Worlds, hebrings the spotlight to the
cross, comparing it to akaleidoscope that reveals a new
(01:01):
geometric image with every turn.
The cross, according to Brian,is about the nature of God, but
also about politics.
It is about love and violence.
It has shaped art, music,literature and history.
And, of course, as every goodbook, this book and this
(01:22):
conversation is not without acontroversy or two.
Hello, brian, welcome to theLimitless Spirit.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I am fine, Helen.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I was really contemplating which one of your
books to choose for ourdiscussion, but I decided to
settle on the latest one.
I hope this is okay with you.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
It's okay with me.
I like them all.
The latest makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
And I will be transparent with you.
I have just discovered you asan author and so I am incredibly
intrigued and your latest book,the Wood Between the Worlds.
I think it's really a beautifulconcept, so I have not read it
yet.
So it's going to be aninteresting conversation.
I'm exploring it and I thinkit's going to be very relatable
(02:17):
to our readers who may not haveread this book, which that's the
point right To introduce thebook to them.
So bear with me, I will beasking a lot of questions
because I'm very intrigued, I'mexploring it.
So we'll start with a questionwhat prompted you to devote a
book to this subject?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Well, there is a whole story to this and it's
told in the first part of thebook.
But you haven't read that, so Iwill tell you.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I have read that part , so I already kind of know the
answer.
I'm going to tell it again.
Anyway, I have done my homework.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
In 2016, my wife Perry and I were, for the first
time, walking the Camino deSantiago Now, we've walked it
four times in total, but thiswas our first time.
Santiago Now, we've walked itfour times in total, but this
was our first time.
And for those that don't knowand many won't know this is an
(03:13):
ancient, or, let's say, medievalpilgrim path that the most
popular route these days beginsin Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port,
france, and then you cross thePyrenees and walk across almost
all of northern Spain toSantiago de Compostela, and
that's a walk of 500 miles.
So we were doing that for thefirst time, and it was September
14th.
(03:33):
That was our first day, 2016,which happens to be, on the
church calendar, holy Cross Day.
I don't think I knew that atthe time, but in retrospect I
realized that's what the day was, and the first day is a hard
day.
It's like 15 miles and youcross the Pyrenees and all the
pilgrims stay in the same place,because there's only one place
to stay.
You stay at this monastery inRonson's Valle, spain, and so
(03:57):
we'd got there and I went intothe chapel at the monastery.
Then I was just sitting there,you know, after a long day, just
sitting, really I wasn't doinganything, but I noticed the
crucifix and I kind of looked atit.
And as I looked at the crucifixin this chapel, in this
monastery, I felt like the HolySpirit gave me some instructions
(04:18):
.
I felt like the Spirit said foryou know, during this it turned
out to be 40 days.
We didn't know how long it wasgoing to take to walk 500 miles.
It turned out it was 40 daysfor us.
Enter every church.
You can pay attention to thecrucifix, ask what does this
mean and don't be too quick togive an answer.
Isn't that interesting?
(04:38):
So that's, I just felt likethat was some instruction, some
guidance, some direction,specific instructions too.
Yeah, so the nature of thispilgrim path, the Camino de
Santiago, is there's lots ofchurches, so numerous times a
day, most days there was anopportunity to enter a church or
(04:59):
something like that, and I didthat.
I would look at the crucifix,pay attention to it, ask what
does this mean?
You understand, you know I'm apastor, you know, and I've been
pastoring, preaching, teachingfor decades, so I could assume
that I know what it means.
But the instruction was no, askwhat this means and don't be
too quick to give an answer.
(05:20):
And so I just would look at itand think, what does this mean?
And then and then just ponder,and as I continued to walk, I
could think what does this mean?
And one of the things that stoodout was because this was a
walking pilgrimage, I wasn'tseeing the same crucifix.
(05:42):
I was seeing different onesevery time and although
essentially it's the same it'sChrist crucified they were
presented all in different ways.
Sometimes, in some of them,christ was alive, and some he
was dead, and some he lookedregal, and some you could
apparently, you could clearlysee his suffering, and so there
are many ways of depictingChrist upon the cross, and that
that kind of worked on me.
That kind of worked on me.
(06:07):
And so it wasn't until aboutwhat would it be?
Six or seven years later that Ifinally thought okay, I've
meditated on this, I've thoughtabout this.
Now I'm ready to say somethings about what I think.
In part, this means Christ uponthe cross.
That's the origin of the book,so it begins in 2016 and it came
out.
The book came out earlier thisyear, so it begins in 2016 and
it came out.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
The book came out earlier this year.
So, as you, I'm just curiousdid you take the pictures of
different?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah, I did, I did.
I have, yeah, and some of them.
Some of them are in the book.
There's, I think, 16 picturesin the book.
They're either public domainphotographs of famous crosses
and paintings or some of themare my own, so yeah, so some of
(06:51):
them show up in, because thebook actually has those images.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So the title of the book is very intriguing as well,
and the subtitle of it is APoetic Theology of the Cross.
So let's try to unpack this.
What is this book?
Is this a theological work?
Is it a book of poetry?
Is it a mix of both?
(07:15):
What did you have in mind, ordid you have anything in mind?
Or it's just your reflectionson that journey and experience?
Or it's just your reflectionson that journey and experience?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yeah, that's a good question.
It is a theology of the cross,but I am not limiting my means
of communicating theology of thecross to academic prose, or
even prose, non-academic prose.
So what I'm doing, even thoughit says poetic theology of the
cross, it's not a book of poetryalthough there is some poetry
(07:45):
in it but rather incommunicating what I see when I
look upon the very center ofChristian faith, christ
crucified I am allowing myselfto draw upon not just typical
theology written in prose, butpoetry, yes, but also film and
art and music, all of that sortof thing.
(08:08):
So if you notice, as you readthe book, you'll notice that
film and novels and music and,of course, yes, image painting,
that sort of thing will show upregularly, and I found that that
was a very helpful way to beginto explore the depth of the
mystery of christ crucified,because the worst thing that can
(08:30):
happen is that we just thinkthe cross means one thing that
we can sum up in a singlesentence and ta-da, we're done
with it, and I wanted to reallyget away from that, and so so
it's.
I haven't.
I haven't talked about this bookfor a little bit because I've
been gone.
I can't remember even how manychapters it has.
It's got 19,.
Yes, 19 chapters and then apoem at the end.
(08:51):
So, and each chapter is sort ofa standalone meditation on what
I see when I encounter thecross.
So it's 19 or 20 different.
Well, I use the termkaleidoscopic.
You know a kaleidoscope.
You look at it, you lookthrough it, you point it at the
light, you see the colors andthe geometric designs, and then
you turn the kaleidoscope andyou have new designs and new
(09:14):
colors.
And so I'm asking the reader tojoin me in a kaleidoscopic view
of the cross, because the crossis not just one thing, the
cross is many things.
And so if I have 20 differenttakes on the meaning of the
cross in this book, I'm notsaying there are 20.
I'm saying, quite possibly, theinfinite nature of God is
(09:38):
present at the cross, so thatindeed, the depth of meaning
could be potentially infinite.
But I'm going to give you 20.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
And I love that concept, and perhaps this
question should be asked at theend of the interview, but I
somehow feel compelled to askthis now.
You know we read books forvarious reasons, and especially
when it comes to books oftheology or books about
Christianity.
We read it either to learnsomething you know, go deeper
(10:09):
into the doctrine, or we readsome type of a self-help book
that explores an aspect ofChristianity that helps us
somehow heal our brokenness.
So why would someone read thisbook?
What would they hope to takeaway from your book about the
cross?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Well, there's actually more than one question,
I think, there in that, and soI have to respond in a couple of
different ways.
First of all, the cross reallydoes seem to be the very focal
point of human history.
I mean, just take a step back,because we're so used to seeing
either a cross or a crucifixit's ubiquitous in Western
(10:51):
culture that we can maybe losesight of how strange it actually
is.
You know how many crosses andcrucifixes have been produced
Billions.
It's the most depicted artisticimage in human history.
And yet isn't this strange?
The most depicted image inhuman art endeavor is that of a
(11:15):
man nailed to a tree beingtortured to death.
Again, we're sort of used tothat.
But I think we should firstmaybe recover some of the
scandal, some of the shock of it.
And I mentioned early in thebook this image is not in the
book mainly because we couldn'tfind who the cartoonist was to
(11:36):
get permission.
I don't know if my publisherwould have allowed me to put it
in there anyway, but I describeit and it's just a single panel
cartoon and in the cartoonaliens have landed their flying
saucer on Earth.
You get the feeling that thisis their arrival on planet Earth
.
They've got out of their flyingsaucer, these two aliens, and
they happen to have landed theirflying saucer right next to a
(11:59):
large, life-size roadsidecrucifix, the kind you see
typically in Spain.
And so here are these twoaliens, just arrived on planet
Earth, standing and looking at acrucifix, having no reference
point, not knowing what it means, and one alien says to the
other you know what we need todo?
We need to get the F out ofhere.
That's what we need to do,which the absurdity of it is
(12:24):
kind of the humor, but actuallythat cartoon helps us literally
see the cross through alien eyes, that is, eyes that are not
used to it.
And so what does it mean that atthe center of human culture is
this event?
And as Christians, it is, ofcourse, clearly the center of
Christian faith.
But what does it mean?
(12:45):
I mean, I think most Christianswould be inclined to say that
it's where our sins are forgiven.
True enough, and that's why Ithink I begin at that point.
The first thing I talk about ishow we associate the cross with
forgiveness.
But how does that work?
And so I explore that, butthat's not the end of the story,
(13:05):
I mean, and so I explore that,but that's not the end of the
story.
I mean there's a whole lot more.
The entirety of whateversalvation is, however deep and
wide it is, whatever isaccomplished in what we call
salvation, comes from the cross.
And, by the way, helen, when Isay cross, I should be clear
that I mean cross in the lightof resurrection.
(13:25):
So I'm holding cross andresurrection together.
I mean and the light ofresurrection.
So I'm holding cross andresurrection together.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
I mean without the resurrection.
You went there.
I was hoping to hear that.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah, without the resurrection, the cross is
nothing.
I mean, we sometimes think youknow that somehow the
crucifixion of Jesus of Nazarethwas some sort of unique.
It was not unique.
The Romans crucified literallyhundreds of sort of unique.
It was not unique.
The Romans crucified literallyhundreds of thousands of people.
I mean, one of the scandals ofGood Friday is that Jesus was
just but one of three that day.
(13:55):
And so, without theresurrection, first of all, you
never hear of Jesus.
So when the New Testament talksabout the cross and when I
write about the cross we meanthe crucified and risen Christ,
that it's all held together.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So they say don't judge a book by its cover, but I
don't think it applies to thisparticular book.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I hope you can judge this book by the cover, because
the cover is gorgeous.
It's stunning.
This is an audio-only podcast,right?
Yes, unfortunately, it's a shame, folks, You're going to have to
.
You know, even if you don't buythe book, you ought to just go
to Amazon and look at the cover,Although that doesn't do it
justice, you know, to see animage on Amazon or wherever, it
(14:40):
is a gorgeous book and I meanI'm not boasting here because I
didn't design the cover, so Ihave to ask who did?
I forgot the name of thegraphic designer at IVP, but I
have thanked them.
I sent them a little letter andit's gorgeous Now.
I mean, I was involved inhelping some general concepts
(15:03):
and they gave me various choicesand I picked some things, and
the images on the cover actuallycome from some of the art
images that I've selected duringthe book, but still, just the
way it's done.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
It is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I'm not exaggerating, at least on my own behalf, when
I say I think it's about themost beautiful book cover I've
ever seen.
I just love it.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I have to agree, and I think that's important too,
because I mean it's the wholeexperience right.
I know we read books on ourtablets nowadays and everything,
but there is something to besaid about the visual experience
of picking up a book and takingin this gorgeous cover and
(15:46):
flipping the pages up a book andtaking in this gorgeous cover
and flipping the pages.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, we're touching on something here too that's
very significant theologically.
So I'm looking at my cover ofthe book here and there is, at
least in part, an image ofChrist upon the cross.
And we are used to seeingcertain art images.
I'm thinking of Montaigne'scrucifix that hangs in the
(16:10):
Louvre in Paris.
If you look at it and you go,that's beautiful, that's sort of
a natural response.
I mean, people look at it andgo that's beautiful, and it is.
And yet, hold on, folks, howcan this be?
It's a depiction again of aGalilean Jew being tortured to
death upon a cross in the firstcentury.
(16:31):
How does that become beautiful?
Well, it's because, look, letme say it this way, if we had a
journalistic photograph of theactual event on Good Friday,
circa AD 30, we might look at itonce, regret that we had, and
never look at it again.
It wouldn't be beautiful, itwould be disturbing, it would be
(16:53):
grotesque, upsetting, it wouldjust be nothing but the
brutality and the horror of aman being put to death in the
most shameful and painful way.
So somebody might say well,wait a minute.
Then, when artists depict thecrucifixion of Christ in terms
of beauty, are they making amistake?
No, they are not making amistake.
(17:13):
The role of the artist is notthat of the journalist.
The journalist just deals inthe raw data.
Just here's the facts.
The artist part of their taskis to alert us to what we may
have overlooked.
And there is more going on atthe cross than just the
crucifixion of a Galilean Jewunder Pontius Pilate.
(17:35):
Well, it's the salvation of theworld, it's the beauty of God
forgiving the sins of the world.
There is beauty there, and sowhen an artist depicts this in
terms of beauty, it's actually astatement of faith, and I love
that.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
So let's jump into the book.
I know we're obviously notgoing to go through every single
aspect of the cross that you'retouching on, and that would be
up to those that's calledreading the book.
Exactly, but let's talk aboutmaybe some of the most
interesting or surprisingthoughts that you captured, and
(18:14):
do you feel like these wererevelations that you received
during your pilgrimage, or it'ssomething?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
that came to you as you were pondering and looking
back at your pilgrimage.
Well, some of the things that Idraw out would be things that I
basically have always believedabout the cross.
Others were brand new, in fact.
I'll give you an example.
Chapter 15 is titled theSword-Pierced Soul of Mary, and
(18:47):
when I had my original outlinefor this book, that chapter was
not in it.
But I had a dream while writingthe book.
I was about halfway through andI had a dream that I wrote
about Mary, the mother of Jesusat the cross, and her experience
and how that might speak to us.
And so, having that dream, Ithought well, I think I'm
(19:10):
supposed to do this, and so thatin fact surprised me, that I
would write a chapter on theexperience of the mother of
Jesus at the cross.
So that would be an example ofsomething that surprised me.
I like the chapter.
I don't know if this isanswering the question, but one
of my favorite chapters to writewas chapter 10, one Ring to
(19:32):
Rule them All.
Clearly I'm drawing uponTolkien and I'm not going to try
to necessarily unpack thatchapter.
Now the cross brings anindictment toward the
unrestrained pursuit ofpolitical power.
Again, I'm not going to try tounpack all that here, but I
(19:55):
enjoyed writing that.
I guess that's the right word.
I did enjoy it because I got towork with Tolkien and that was
good, and I think maybe myfavorite chapter is chapter 19,
the final chapter before thelong poem at the end of the book
, the center that holds and yeah, I don't know what I'm working
(20:16):
with some Yeats poetry there andI'm talking about how, how, in
one sense, everything fallsapart.
On the other hand, there is acenter that holds and that
center is found at the cross and, in one sense, on the cross
Jesus is reaching.
Center that holds and thatcenter is found at the cross and
, in one sense, on the cross,jesus is reaching out and
holding all things together.
This is alluded to in Paul'sepistle to the Colossians.
So I don't know.
(20:38):
All I know is the more I sitwith the cross, that is, in
contemplation, the more I see,and that's why I do think it's
probably inexhaustiblecontemplation, the more I see,
and that's why I do think it'sprobably inexhaustible.
And so you know, I wrote a bookthat's 200 and some pages and
it's 19 chapters.
I suppose I could.
I'm sitting here at my writingdesk.
I could start today and writeanother.
You know 19 chapters.
(20:59):
It just takes being patient,sitting, not being in a hurry,
not wanting to say Well, thecross means this and we have a
theological sentence, and it'slike.
I'm all done.
Now Next question, please.
I think that is a very cavalierway to approach the cross and
(21:19):
we should maintain both kind ofshock and fascination at the
same time and allow itcontinually to, over and over
and over, speak to us at thesame time, and allow it
continually to, over and overand over speak to us.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Do you think some parts of your book might be
surprising or even controversial?
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Oh, yes, yes, yes, I'm quite sure of that.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Let's talk about that , people.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
The book has been very well received, so I'm happy
.
But I mean I address, forexample, chapter 14 is the cross
and capital punishment.
That would be a chapter that'sonly controversial in America.
It's really not controversialwith Christians in other parts
of the world, but it's.
How do we understand capitalpunishment in the light of the
(22:06):
cross?
So if capital punishment can goso wrong that it's capable of
committing the greatestinjustice in human history, that
is, the execution of theinnocent one, the truly sinless
one, then maybe we need torethink the whole idea of
capital punishment, as in factthe early church did.
(22:27):
The early church universallyrejected it.
Now, later on, once the churchbegins to be entangled with
empire, from Constantine on, andthen we get into the medieval
period, those views change, butfor the first 300 years the
church was universally opposedto the death penalty.
Same with the chapter that'sentitled War is Over.
If you Want it, the cross is acritique of war.
(22:49):
That would be controversial.
And also, just what is thesource of violence at the cross?
The cross is a violent thing,but what is the source?
Is it divine violence or is ithuman violence?
And so I would say it like this, even though I don't see it as
controversial.
The Orthodox Church doesn't seeit as controversial, but some
do.
The cross is not what Godinflicts upon Jesus in order to
(23:12):
forgive.
The cross is what God in Christendures as he forgives.
And so when the son prays,father, forgive them, for they
know not what they do.
The son is not acting as anagent of change upon the father.
The father doesn't change.
The father is immutable.
This is basic theology.
Rather, the son is revealingFather doesn't change.
The Father is immutable.
This is basic theology.
Rather, the Son is revealingwho the Father is.
So we might imagine theresponse.
(23:35):
When Jesus says, father,forgive them, we might imagine
the Father saying something likeof course, son, that's who we
are, you know, think about all.
Through John's gospel, jesusrepeatedly says things like I
only do what the Father does, Ionly say what the Father says.
The Father and I are one.
If you've seen me, you've seenthe Father.
(23:57):
So the cross is not where Godgains the wherewithal to forgive
.
The cross is the moment wherethe sin of the world, coalescing
into a hideous singularity, isabsorbed by God in Christ that
it might be forgiven in mass.
That departs from how Anselmand later Calvin understood
(24:18):
forgiveness.
So if somebody is a reallyhardcore Calvinist, they're
going to find it controversial,but most won't.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Interesting.
This is something to thinkabout.
I don't know what Ispecifically think about this at
this moment, but you know,that's the point of the book, I
think is to maybe, from what I'mgathering, you know, and the
research that I have done, maybenot come to certain conclusions
(24:46):
, but encourage you to think andexplore deeper and really spend
some time in contemplating thecross and what it means to you,
and also look at, gaze at thebeauty of it.
Like you mentioned, there isbeauty in the whole aspect of
the cross.
That is part of worship, andyou don't always have to read
(25:08):
books to fix something or tolearn something.
I think that's.
What makes this book stand outto me is that it could be read
as an act of worship, as gazingat the beauty of God and
contemplating.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Even if you have a different view or opinion.
You know there is carving outthe time of contemplating on the
beauty of God and theperfection of his plan.
That's a form of worship.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I love.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
That I would completely agree with that.
In fact, the 17th chapter, theHeroine of Hell, I incorporate a
lot of the lyrics of earlyChristian hymns, you know from
the first, second, third, fourth, fifth centuries, and it's very
.
I think people will find itvery interesting how the first
(25:58):
Christians sang about the crossand how somehow Satan was
defeated and humanity is savedthrough the cross, and so I'll
let people explore that on theirown, but I think they'll find
that fascinating.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That's very interesting and I suspect that
our readers are going to want toknow more about what you think
and maybe even some other booksthat you have written, and I
understand that there is aYouTube channel that your church
hosts on YouTube.
Youtube channel that yourchurch hosts on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Yeah, you can find all my sermons there.
I mean, if people just GoogleBrian Zahn and spell it right,
z-a-h-n-d, you'll find.
You know, I had a blog.
I mean I don't use it veryoften because I think all the
podcasters killed the blogs andthen the sub stacks.
But I mean you can find mybooks you know everywhere and
(26:52):
you can find the books you knowonline and be able to order
those and what we do.
And the sermons are there atWOLC TV.
But if you just Google Word ofLife Church, you'll find that.
Or Google Brian Zahn, you'llfind I'm pretty active on some
of the social media platforms.
Try to use that as a forum formostly for what I would consider
(27:18):
public theology, althoughyou'll also find me now and then
posting things just on music ortravel or whatever.
That's a little bit interestingfor some.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So sounds like this is not going to be your last
book.
You've been a prolific writer,so is there something else in
the works already?
Can we peek into that?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Sitting at my writing desk.
I know people can't see this.
Here's the notebook for whatI'm working on.
I'm a little more than halfwaythrough book number 12, which
has the title Paths of UnseenExistences, with the subtitle
being the Pilgrimage of the SoulToward Our True Home.
But that's another book andit's only halfway done, but I'm
(27:57):
trying to be done by the end ofthe year.
I'm going to meet with some ofmy editors, in fact later this
week, and they kind of want toknow where I'm at on this.
And I'm kind of funny.
Most authors aren't this waybut I keep everything really
secret until I'm done with themanuscript.
I don't like to just give theeditors here's a new chapter.
(28:20):
I just wait till I'm completelydone, and so they would tell me
well, we're all excited, butwhat do you write?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I said, just wait, I'll give you an entire
manuscript by the end of theyear.
Well then, you're not going tolike my next question because
I'm going to cry into it.
So, judging by the title, thisnew book, is it echoing the
theme of NT Wright's bookSurprised by Hope?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I'm very influenced by NT Wright.
I've met Tom Wright a time ortwo, even had dinner with him a
few years ago.
He certainly influences me.
I can't remember if I've quotedhim yet in Paths of Unseen
Existences, but it really istrying to alert and one sense I
am recovering the hope of heaventhat this life is a journey.
(29:06):
This life is significant, thislife matters, but this life is
penultimate.
This life is a midway world.
We are moving toward our truehome, home in one sense being a
place where we've never been butwe're trying to get to, and so
that's kind of what it's about.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I love that book specifically.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
I like most of his writings, but surprisingly
Surprised by Hope I probablyhave been able to convince at
least 100 pastors, and maybemore, to read that book,
especially when it first cameout in like 2009,.
Maybe I don't know when it was.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
It might be a strong statement, but I like to say
that this is one of the mostimportant books outside of the
Bible.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
that I completely agree, Helen.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
This book kind of made me think that.
You know, since he presents theNew Testament from the
perspective of the resurrection,perhaps your book is attempting
to do the same, but show itfrom the perspective of the
cross and the crucifixion.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Would you say that Ultimately they're held together
, but we can emphasize one orthe other in a particular moment
.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
And so, then, that should give you a well-rounded
view.
Well, thank you so much forthis interview.
I do think this is going to bean excellent read for anyone who
is listening to this interview,and we will definitely post the
link to your YouTube channel aswell.
Looking forward to your nextbook, I hope it won't be too
(30:40):
long before it's out and ready.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Thank you, Helen.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I personally look forward to reading the Wood
Between the Worlds.
Whether you agree fully withBrian Zahn's theology, whether
you enjoy poetry or not, themore time you spend
contemplating on the beauty ofGod and what he has done for us,
the more you become like him.
Follow the link in the shownotes to check Brian's sermons
(31:08):
Google him, read his book.
The message of the cross andthe resurrection is the message
of hope to this world, and weare called to share it with
those near us and those who arefar.
We adopt the sacrificial natureof Christ when we're willing to
leave behind our comfort zoneand self-interest and travel
(31:30):
half across the world to sharethe good news.
At World Missions Alliance, weopen for you monthly
opportunities to do so throughshort-term missions.
If you visit the websiterfwmaorg, you will discover ways
to explore and fulfill theGreat Commission.
Until next time, I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World
Missions Alliance.
We believe that changed liveschange lives.
If your life was transformed byChrist, you are equipped to
help others experience thistransformation.
Christ called his followers tomake disciples across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(32:17):
through short-term missions inover 32 countries across the
globe.
If you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving, check out our website,
rfwmaorg, and find out how toget involved.
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