March 14, 2025 • 37 mins
Philip Todd, Chief Economist for the US Senate Homeland Security Committe, shares his extraordinary journey of faith and forgiveness after surviving a brutal, unprovoked knife attack in Washington DC two years ago. Despite life-threatening injuries and his attacker still awaiting trial due to mental health issues, Philip shares how this experience changed his vew of justice and what are his hopes for his attacker.
• Forgiveness as a deliberate choice prompted by the Holy Spirit rather than an emotional response
• The tension between personal forgiveness and societal justice
• How rejecting victimhood contributed to physical and emotional healing
• Wrestling with public pressure to politicize personal trauma in a politically charged environment
• The complexity of justice when mental health issues are involved
• The church's responsibility to be involved in both justice and rehabilitation
• Finding purpose and meaning through suffering
• The importance of wrestling with God during seasons of injustice
Join Philip Todd at the Greater Purpose Conference on April 11th in Branson, Missouri at Thousand Hills Resort where he'll share more details about his journey. For more information or to register, visit rfwma.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, the podcast where we
explore the deep questions offaith, purpose and what it means
to live out the calling ofChrist in a broken world.
I'm your host, helen Todd.
Today we're tackling adifficult but essential topic
the tension between justice andgrace.
(00:37):
What do you do when you havebeen wronged, when someone
commits an act of violence,betrayal or injustice against us
?
How are we supposed to respond?
Justice feels right, butsometimes it seems like God
takes a long time to administerjustice.
Forgiveness feels impossible,and grace?
(01:00):
Well.
Grace sometimes feels unfair,but as Christians, we're called
to both justice and grace.
How do we hold these thingstogether without compromising
one for the other?
My guest today knows thisstruggle firsthand.
Two years ago, my son, philipTodd, who lives in Washington DC
(01:25):
, survived a brutal andunprovoked attack by a stranger
with a knife.
His injuries werelife-threatening and while he
has made a full physicalrecovery, his attacker has yet
to face trial due to ongoingmental health concerns.
Despite all of this, philip andmy husband and myself we chose
(01:48):
to forgive.
So this story is one of painbut also of hope, and today
we'll explore what it means topursue justice while extending
grace, and how forgiveness canbe both freeing and costly, and
where we find peace when justiceseems delayed or denied.
(02:09):
Hello Philip, welcome toLimitless Spirit.
How are you today?
I'm doing good, thanks forhaving me record this interview
with you, since this is thesecond year anniversary of the
story that was very profound inyour life, in my life as your
(02:32):
mom, and I think that we have alot to talk about.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
It sounds good.
I'm looking forward to jumpingin.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So you know, in the life of a Christian there is
this tension between justice andgrace.
In fact, if you think about it,these are two concepts that
could be seen in conflict witheach other, and I think that
(03:00):
your story is a really greatillustration.
It's hard for me to feeldetached from it and talk about
it from the philosophicalconcept, but I really want to
dig in into this aspect of yourstory.
So it's an example of sufferingand injustice, and when
(03:20):
something like this happens, thenatural instinct is often anger
or desire for retribution.
So, now that two years havepassed, tell us how did you
wrestle with those emotions inthe aftermath of the attack?
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think my story is unique insome respect.
I think my story is unique insome respect I think we talked
previously through the entiretyof the story but I think the
unique part of my story is thatGod was gracious to me in the
sense that the moment that myattack happened was probably the
moment I was seeking God themost in my life and, of course,
(04:00):
since then I've tried to seekGod even more.
But I think it was unique inthe sense that I was my heart
posture was probably differentthan it was prior.
My level of obedience at thatmoment in my life was much
larger and higher than it was inprevious points in my life, and
so I think the graciousness Iwas referring to from God in
(04:22):
that respect was prettyimmediately after my attack.
I felt like the Lord promptedme and prompted you guys to
pretty quickly forgive and prayfor Glenn, and I think the
process of doing that actuallyended up, you know, in some
respects shielding me from a lotof suffering like emotional
(04:42):
suffering and trauma.
Shielding me from a lot ofsuffering like emotional
suffering and trauma.
And you know, I remember, evenin my visits to the doctor as I
was recovering, all the doctorskept saying, well, do you have
any traumatic dreams, do youhave any PTSD, you know, are you
able to walk without a lot offear or, like you know,
nervousness or anxiety oranything like that?
And I kept saying, yeah, no, Ihaven't had any of it.
(05:03):
I think it really is by thegrace of God.
And they said, well, even ifyou don't have it now, you
likely will have this.
Just be ready for it.
Be ready that it's going tocome and it's okay, because it's
a very normal reaction.
But, by the grace of God, thatreally never happened and I
think that was again due to afew functions One, the Lord
(05:27):
being gracious of allowing thisevent to happen in the moment
that I was ready to handle it,for lack of a better term.
But two, in the sense that Godwas gracious enough to prompt
that so quickly in the recoveryprocess that I think it did
shield me from a little bit ofemotional suffering.
But I guess, to go back to youroriginal question, was how did
I wrestle with these feelings?
I think there was a little bitof a wrestle, and maybe not the
(05:49):
way that you would typicallythink.
I think the real wrestle was.
I live in a city that's verypolitical and that's very quick
to kind of capitalize on acrisis, and oftentimes that's a
good thing, oftentimes that's abad thing, and I think the verse
that comes to mind whenthinking about this is you know,
be slow to speak and quick tolisten.
(06:10):
I'm paraphrasing.
I don't remember the nature ofmy work because of the nature of
this city.
There was a lot of pressure,initially to have an opinion, to
have a stance, you know, tospeak out against crime or to
(06:31):
speak, you know, on the otherside, to speak against the
political nature of people whowant to crack down on crime or
whatever it may be.
And I think the thing that wasdifficult for me was, you know,
at one point I didn't want tothrow away a moment that was
definitely God-given.
At the same time, I want tosteward that moment well and
consider, like you mentioned,the tension between grace and
(06:53):
justice, the tension betweenforgiveness and retribution, you
know, both of which areimportant in all cases.
But I think that was the tensionthat I wrestled with a lot
during my recovery over the lasttwo years.
Frankly, I'm still wrestlingwith it in some respect of
knowing when to speak, when notto speak, when to speak
(07:14):
specifically on crime, when tospeak specifically on
forgiveness, and I think there'sdifferent contexts that are
more appropriate for each.
But it is a wrestle that I'vebeen wrestling with for the last
two years, especially because,in a lot of respects, this story
isn't closed it's still an opencourt case, it's still an open
discussion here in DC and, infact, maybe even ramped up even
(07:35):
more, and so I think it'sinteresting that my wrestle was
not necessarily with the directemotional trauma of the
situation, but more about howcan I be a proper mouthpiece for
God in this situation, or howcan I steward the one, the, you
know, the giftings and the factthat he saved me from death in
(07:56):
this situation and was graciousto me to prevent me from having
emotional trauma or lastinginjuries or whatever, in a way
that's still honoring to him,you know, and honoring all of
those gifts that he gave me,while still not, you know,
letting this moment wisp awaytoo.
So I don't know if that answersyour question or not, but I
think that's one of the wrestlesthat I've been having now.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Well, and it is very true that your situation is
unique because your injurieswere very, very serious, but you
recovered from them in aremarkably short amount of time
and seemingly with noconsequences.
So let's hypothetically and Ihate to even steer the
(08:38):
conversation in this directionbut let's say that you did
suffer, but let's say that youdid suffer serious consequences
in your health, whether it'sphysical health or mental health
, do you think that yourforgiveness would still remain?
Do you think you would notharbor at least some resentment
(09:01):
towards the person who, for noreason, caused you these
injuries?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Well, maybe I'll reframe the question real quick
before I answer.
I think one function well, oneI should caveat there were
challenges, I think, in myrecovery and there were moments
of frustration in the sense thatyou know, I essentially lost I
wouldn't say lost, but you knowmy life halted for probably two
or three months or so before Iwas able to come back to DC.
(09:27):
And even when I was able tocome back to DC, I had to,
unfortunately, ease my way backinto a pretty mentally and
emotionally demanding job, andso that was a frustrating part
about it, and I think there weresome complications as well that
I had this sort of mental focusand vision that we've talked
about before and stuff like that.
(09:48):
So it wasn't without a hitch.
But I think the interestingpart is that I think the
question that you're asking hereis had I had you know, had my
experience been a lot worse,would the forgiveness still be
there?
I tend to think, because myinjuries were so severe that the
forgiveness had to have playeda role within the speedy
recovery.
(10:08):
If that makes sense, I almostthink the reverse where it's
like, I think, the fact that Iwas able to forgive so quickly
and again, that was all.
I wish I could claim it as myown strength there, but it
really wasn't.
It was the prompting of theLord and the Holy Spirit, but I
think because we forgave soquickly, that's why it led to
such quick recovery.
I think had it taken me alittle bit of time to muster up
(10:31):
the courage and to wrestle withthe frustration that I had
towards him or the frustrationof the situation, I tend to
think that would be highlycorrelated with the length of
time of my recovery as well, andyou know it's not always that.
I think every situation'sdifferent and sometimes even the
people that are ready toforgive immediately are still
gonna have long periods ofrecovery.
So I'm not saying it's like aformula by any means, but I do
(10:54):
think rejecting that mentalityof victimhood is important in
the recovery process, and Ithink that was true in my
recovery process and true of alot of people that I've seen go
through similar rough situations.
I think, understanding that youknow, despite how dreary the
situation may be, that God stillhas a plan and God can redeem
(11:15):
those situations.
I think that was one of theverses I kept quoting through my
recovery is Genesis 50, 20,which is, you know what the
enemy meant for evil.
The Lord meant for good, forthe saving of many lives.
You know and he's speaking toJoseph in that specific
situation which Joseph had itmuch worse than I did and Joseph
had it much worse than many ofmy colleagues had.
Yet he was elevated at the endof his career and end of his
(11:37):
life to be in charge over Egyptso he could save the nation.
You know it's he wasn't able tosee that in the moment, but I
think that's when I'm having themindset that like and faith and
trust in God that he can stillredeem any situation is critical
to your attitude and your your,I think your physical recovery
in the midst of it too.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So I don't know again if that answers your question,
but I think that sometimespeople struggle with forgiveness
because they somehow feel thatby forgiving the person who
wronged them, they're erasingthe consequences of sin.
So what would you say tosomeone who feels that forgiving
(12:18):
a person who wronged them meansbetraying their own pain or the
pain of others?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And how do you differentiate between forgiving
someone and excusing theiractions?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, I think this is and this is kind of going back
to your initial point about thetension between forgiveness and
justice.
I think it's interestingbecause when you look at
scripture and you look at yourunderstanding of God more
broadly, I think there's thissort of tension kind of inherent
throughout all of scripture.
You know you have the tensionbetween, like, the Paul points
of grace and the James points offruit.
(12:54):
You know, faith without worksis dead is what James says and
Paul says.
You know that grace abounds.
You know faith without works isdead is what James says and
Paul says.
You know that grace abounds.
You know, in all situations andstuff, that's one tension.
You've also got the tension ofGod's goodness and God's
greatness too, you know, and soyou see this kind of in my
opinion, a very similar tensionthroughout all of faith, and I
think it plays out here too.
I don't think that they'remutually exclusive, as much as
(13:16):
the world would like to say thatthey're mutually exclusive.
It seems to me that, yeah, forthere to be true justice, there
probably needs.
Let me take a step back.
I think there's two differentresponsibilities.
For someone in my shoes,probably From my perspective, it
seems like you have aresponsibility to forgive,
regardless of what justice lookslike for that person or if he's
(13:38):
received justice or if hehasn't received justice.
Regardless of the circumstances, I think the responsibility is
to forgive, because that's whatthe Lord, that's what Jesus
taught us, that's the examplethat Jesus showed us.
You know, and in a lot of casesJesus used the analogy of
turning the other cheek.
You know when you're struck.
My understanding of thosepassages is that Jesus is not
saying turn your other cheek inhopes that that person will
(14:01):
eventually receive what he'sowed.
You know, I think it's turnyour other cheek in faith that
God is going to redeem it.
You know, redeem whateveryou're going through and that
God's going to honor yourfaithfulness in those moments of
trial and tribulation.
So I think that the importanceof forgiveness is not it is
intention with and not mutuallyexclusive to the concept of
(14:23):
justice or the concept ofconsequences of sin, as you
mentioned.
The responsibility is notrelated.
Your responsibility or ourresponsibility as Christians is,
I think, to forgive in allcases.
Forgive 99 times, as the Lordsays, you know.
Whereas I also think that, onthe same token, to forgive
someone does not erase therequirement for justice, it does
(14:48):
not erase the need for societyto impose justice, it does not
erase the fact that God seesthat as an injustice.
You know, I think it's more ofa point of understanding whose
responsibility is whom, and Ithink the theme that you see
throughout scripture is that ourresponsibility is to show the
love of Christ.
It's God's responsibility totake vengeance and to seek
(15:09):
justice.
And I say that maybe with somecaveats, because I do think that
there's a role that all of uscan play in that process of
justice and a role that we allshould play in that concept of
justice, and maybe we'll talkabout that a little bit later as
well.
But I think that the primaryresponsibility we have is to
exhibit the love of Christ atall times, and I think it is a
(15:31):
wrong way to perceive Jesus aswhen he exhibits forgiveness or
when he exhibits sort of thetenderhearted nature or
characters of God, to see thatas weakness.
Because in reality, I thinkoftentimes and this was said by
a lot of my mentors and I thinkI've seen it in a lot of other
people's cases too oftentimes ittakes a lot more strength to do
(15:53):
something that culture wouldsay you shouldn't, do you know?
So, I think, despite not havingan earthly reason to forgive
somebody still choosing toforgive and give and trust God
that he's going to redeem thesituation often requires a lot
more strength, and so I thinkit's often a dichotomy that
shouldn't exist, even though Iknow the earthly society would
(16:13):
tell you that that's a tension.
Forgiveness and the fact thatit could erase the consequences
of sin, I think it's just arecognition that that's not your
responsibility to administerthe consequences you know.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So, speaking of justice, one of the biggest
struggles people have is whenjustice doesn't come on their
timeline or doesn't come at all,and so, in your case, your
attacker has not faced trial dueto mental health concerns.
So how have you processed that?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, that's been one of the tensions.
To go back to your firstquestion, I think that's been
one of the tensions that I'vereally wrestled with.
You know, I knew that myoriginal, my initial
responsibility was to forgive,and then, at least the way I was
first processing this, mythought was my immediate
responsibility is to forgive.
It's the justice system'sresponsibility to administer
justice, and I think the wayI've continued thinking about
(17:08):
this is that I internally holdno ill will, no ill will towards
Glenn, my attacker.
I have truly, I think, by thegrace of God and with the help
of God and with the help of theHoly Spirit, been able to
completely relieve myself of anyhatred or frustration or
anything like that towards Glenn.
Yet, at the same time, I thinkthe importance of justice is
(17:29):
still there, in the sense that Iwas blessed in my situation
with having a wonderful church,a wonderful community, a
wonderful family.
You know the means to make itthrough that hospital situation,
the connections to navigate,all of the difficulties that
come with working through thathospital system, and you know I
could go on and on about all theblessings that I had.
(17:50):
In the midst of this, I thinkit's also the case that there
could be someone walking downthat same street as me who
doesn't have all of thosebenefits built into their life
that would not have handled itas well, and I was millimeters
from death.
It could have been death forsomeone else too.
So there's a function ofjustice that I think is
important.
Beyond the specific person youknow, beyond me and in my case
(18:12):
I'll just speak specifically tomy case I think there's an
importance of justice that'soutside of how I feel or what my
feelings are towards thesituation.
That's important.
I think.
The frustration of not seeingthat justice is, I think,
perhaps a selfish one.
In some respect.
It's one that I have.
I'm not saying that I don'thave it, but I think trusting
(18:35):
that God is in control is thefirst thing that I've really had
to grapple with.
And then, on doing so, trustingthat in the midst of this
process, that where there'sinjustices in our system, where
there's injustices in the waythat Glenn is being handled or
in the way that the case isbeing handled, or whatever,
trusting that God will bringthat to light and that there
will be some movement taken.
(18:56):
And so I think the tensionthat's there is that, yes, the
justice system moves slowly, Ithink, typically, our justice
system has done a pretty goodjob at administering justice,
but I think, now being in themiddle of it, the one thing I've
realized is that things movereally slowly, things are not
always just as I would havehoped them to have been, and
that the concept or thedefinition of justice is not
(19:17):
always just as I would havehoped them to have been, and
that the concept or thedefinition of justice is not
always an easy one too.
Because I think, you know,without getting into too many
particulars, the difficulty ofGlenn's situation is that he
does have a lot of mental healthconcerns and a lot of those.
While I'm not saying that heshouldn't be in prison or he
shouldn't be in jail, I reallydo think he should because he's
probably a danger to society.
(19:38):
I think it's also the case thata lot of what probably happens
in our prison systems is notnecessarily going to fix his
ultimate problem, which is hismental health and, from my
perspective, his spiritualhealth more broadly.
And so I think, understandingwhat justice looks like, I think
justice in this case again, Idon't want to speak out of turn
or, you know, without knowingall the details yet, and a lot
(20:00):
of those details are still beinguncovered but seemingly someone
who's a menace to society.
Justice still would includeprison or removing that person
from society so that he can't orshe can't inflict harm on
anyone else.
But justice might also bebeyond that.
There's a chance that it stillmay be unjust to just leave them
in that situation withouttrying to address the other
(20:22):
things that are going on.
And I'm not talking about justa legal definition of justice.
I'm talking about more broadlywhat a Christian American person
or individual's concept ofjustice ought to be is what I
mean more broadly by that.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And while it is, for me personally, extremely
frustrating how long thisprocess is taking, I remind
myself that God's timing isperfect and nothing is hidden
before God and ultimately wehave to trust Him that the
ultimate justice will be given,Glenn, and on God's timing and
(21:01):
on God's terms.
So let's talk about this in thecontext of a church.
So church often struggles tobalance compassion for victims
with the call to love those whocommit terrible crimes, to love
those who commit terrible crimes.
So what do you think the churchshould be doing to uphold both
justice and grace in a way thatreflects?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Yeah, it's a good question and I guess, to relate
it to my previous answer, Ithink understanding what justice
is is important in this context, because I think there's a
legal and a societal definitionof not just definition but but
way of administering justicethat's still right and righteous
in many cases and still oughtto be pursued, and oftentimes
(21:44):
that literally means you knowdetention, or that literally
means you know court case, orwhatever it may be.
You know the way we think ofjustice or criminal justice in
the modern context.
But I think where the churchought to play more of a role,
and something that I've been alittle bit more passionate about
in this last year, isadministering the holistic
(22:04):
justice, or the remaining partsof justice that's not handled by
our government, which in a lotof cases, I think that's what
happens after someone like Glennserves his full term and is
released, you know, or whathappens while Glenn is in prison
too, you know, I think thechurch has a big role to play in
that case, in the sense of likeokay, if we really believe that
God can redeem men and women,if we really believe that God
(22:26):
can change hearts and minds andif we really believe that, as
we've seen evidence of inscripture that God meets people
in prisons, then the churchshould really be in the prison
system as well.
I think there's a lot of greatministries doing good work in
the prison system and there's alot of challenges to doing work
in the prison system too.
So I think what I would like tosee is the church being on the
front lines of that and thefront lines of trying to figure
(22:47):
out what it looks like, not justto correct the hearts and minds
of people who have fallen intoa life of crime, but also take
preventative steps intopreventing those people from
falling into a life of crime tobegin with and that's where I
think the church can play alarge role in is investing
heavily in their communities,investing heavily in low income
areas, investing heavily inprison ministry to investing
(23:08):
heavily in what postincarcerated life looks like for
those folks too, and I thinkthere's a lot of ways that the
church can jump in in thatrespect.
That again, I think my situationwas unique in a lot of ways,
but I think that maybe if thechurch was a lot more involved,
could have prevented a lot ofcases similar to mine from
happening to begin with.
And that's where I think thechurch ought to be involved is I
(23:28):
think the church really shouldbe on the front lines of forming
culture and the front lines ofinviting and trying to bring
these people that otherwisewould fall into a life of crime
into their communion with Jesus,and so I think that's what I'd
really like to see the church doin terms of administering
justice, and I think there's alot of other things that we
(23:48):
could add to that too.
I think teaching the concept ofreconciliation, teaching the
concept of forgiveness andteaching the concept of, also
civil participation,participating in the justice
process from a governmental andlegal perspective too, is, I
think, an equally importantaspect of this that the church
should also be promoting.
I think so.
I think I personally would liketo see the church involved in
(24:11):
all aspects of this, and Ireally think that if we want to
see a just society, that's notpossible without the church, and
in a lot of ways I think thechurch has been a little slow to
join this conversation andtrying to neatly stay in the
lane.
That's comfortable to them,which is great, but you know,
there's room to expand thosetent pegs into different
functions of society that Idon't think the church has
(24:32):
typically been as involved in asI would like to see.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, I think that's a whole different conversation
because that leads to manyfollow-up questions that I would
have to all of this on what isthe role of the church in
society.
But let's jump back into yourstory.
So do you feel that thisexperience changed the way you
(24:55):
see justice and grace in yourlife and in the world in general
?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, I think so.
I think one thing that Imentioned at the beginning of
the call was that there was,particularly because the nature
of my work is very political andI live in a very political city
I think that there wasimmediately a lot of microphones
shoved in my face right aftermy attack, and so, I think,
trying to understand exactlywell one.
(25:21):
I think the first big lessonthat I learned in this case is
that I think justice is notalways an easy concept to
grapple with, and I think,understanding what justice is I
think justice is objective, ofcourse justice is.
I think justice is objective,of course, but I think that what
an objective form of justicelooks like can look many
different ways depending on thecase, depending on the person
(25:42):
and depending on thecircumstances, and so I think
that's one thing that I'velearned is that I think I used
to have a very black and whiteview of what crime and
punishment ought to look like insociety, and in a lot of ways,
that hasn't changed and a lot ofother ways that has changed.
And understanding you know thisis a messy process.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Well, give me some examples, some examples here.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Well, I think you know, for instance, the
immediate reaction in my casewas that, okay, you've got a lot
of crime at that in thatparticular year and it's ebbed
and flowed since then, but in2023, I believe crime, and
specifically violent crime in DC, was at an all-time high.
I think the immediate reactionis like, okay, you know, this is
we need to, and I still thinkwe do.
(26:25):
I'm not discounting thesepolicy measures by any means,
but I think my case, beingjoined with a lot of other cases
that happened that year, was apart of the political momentum
in that particular cycle.
We need to really crack down oncrime in DC.
We really need to add to, youknow, the sentencing.
We need to add more judges, weneed to add more police officers
(26:46):
.
We need to do, we need to spendmore money on our police force
and stuff like that.
All of those might be true andI think a lot of in a lot of
ways, lot of ways.
Those are all great things, butI think when you stop and think
about my particular situation,it becomes a little bit more
complex.
When you look at Glenn'ssituation, it wasn't that he was
just I mean, he wasn't part ofa gang.
(27:06):
As far as we know, he wasn'tpart of the typical definition
of what violent crime in DClooks like, which is usually
gang violence or, in other cases, oftentimes the youth in DC.
He was a man who had served afull sentence in prison.
He didn't get out early, hedidn't get, or as far as we know
I mean details are still comingfor that but as far as we know
(27:27):
he served the full sentence.
As far as we know, he wasn'tproblematic inmate, as far as
you know again, all thesedetails are still ongoing.
But I think the unique partabout Glenn is that, seemingly
fine, served his sentence,released from prison, from on
paper, the criminal justicesystem worked, you know, in his
case.
But then 12 hours later, 24hours later, he randomly stabs a
(27:50):
person walking by on the streetfor no cause, for no reason or
anything like that.
And so trying to understandwhat justice looks like in his
specific circumstance or with myspecific situation, I think is
much different than your typicalgang violence or you know what
is it?
Teen troublemakers and stufflike that, you know.
And so I think trying tounderstand exactly what the one,
(28:10):
what my role to play is and,two, what are ways that we can
really get to the root of theproblem with Glenn, which I
don't think is done through yourtypical measures.
When you're thinking aboutcriminal justice more broadly
With Glenn, it seems to me thata lot of that is like, in my
opinion, still really needs arelationship with God, a
relationship with Jesus, andthen from a more kind of secular
(28:31):
perspective and not justsecular but from a maybe more
rationalist perspective hereally does need a lot more
mental health treatment andstuff, and maybe there's another
procedure that needs to beadministered before he's fully
released in society and left tohis own devices and stuff.
And so, you know, there's a lotof conversation about like
halfway houses and stuff likethat, and I think justice in
(28:51):
this case is trying tounderstand exactly the
institutional framework behindthis situation and what can be
done within that framework toprevent something like that
happening from someone who'sless fortunate than I, either
ending their life or puttingthem in a position where they
may never recover.
Fortunate in my situation, butI really in many ways, the
(29:15):
severity of the injuries, theseverity of the situation would
have left many, many peoplewithout answers after this, and
so I think justice in that caseis trying to figure out exactly
and have a little bit moreempathy for the specific
situation and willing to getmore into the weeds on the
specific situation than juststaying at the top level and
taking the easy politicallow-hanging fruit there, and so
(29:38):
that's just one example of waysthat I've been grappling with
the situation is.
It's not a clean answer, it'snot a clear-cut answer.
Yes, justice still needs to beadministered.
Yes, I want to see justice inthe court case in particular.
Yes, I want to see him probablysentenced and put back into
prison, frankly, or at least,you know, in some capacity not
(29:59):
out on the streets, I should say.
But I also would love to seeGlenn brought back to full
health and Glenn brought back tohis full mental capacities and
Glenn brought to a relationshipwith Jesus at some point.
And, frankly, I would love tomeet him personally and pray for
him personally too.
Right now he's not in a statewhere I can do that, and so I
(30:19):
think to me that's what justicelooks like in Glenn's case, and
there are thousands of differentpermutations of what crime
looks like in this city, in thiscountry, in this world, and I
don't think it's an easy orclean answer to know what
justice looks like in each ofthose cases.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
So if someone listening today is battling with
the weight of injustice, maybein their own life or with what
is happening in the world, whatencouragement would you offer?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
I think one thing that gave me a lot of peace
throughout my situation is thatwhen you look throughout
Scripture, you know I'm doing myyear through the Bible again
this year and I'm in just pastthe passage with Jacob wrestling
with God, for instance, andthat's, I think, maybe the first
of many examples throughoutScripture of there being fruit
when you choose to lock in andwrestle with God.
(31:17):
You know, I think that's oneway to form the analogy, for all
the times you see it inScripture, whether it be Job,
whether it be you know, whetherit be Paul, or whether it be so
many different examplesthroughout Scripture of people
who may not know what's going onJoseph, for instance, who may
not know what's going on at themoment, who may not know what's
going on at the moment, who maynot know what's going on in
their specific situation, andfrom all kind of aspects that
(31:39):
you can tell it looks like hopeis lost.
It looks like this is awful,the world has won, the devil is
afflicting you and stuff likethat.
But I think, putting your faithin Jesus, I think, and putting
your faith in God and choosingto wrestle with God in those
circumstances, I think one thingthat's striking to me as I read
through the Psalms is how manytimes that David was in a
(32:00):
position of anguish.
You know, and I think thatposition of anguish is included
in Scripture for a reason, and Ithink that's because sometimes
you get the most fruit fromdeciding to still choose to seek
God in those situations, stillchoosing to bring your burdens
to the Lord in that situation.
And you know, one of my favoriteverses in Proverbs 3, 5 says
trusting in the Lord with allyour heart and lean not on your
(32:22):
own understanding.
And I think that's the mostinteresting part of the verse is
that you know, God gave you amind and we often use that mind
to think through the situationsand how things ought to be, or
to think about what justicelooks like in our situation.
But oftentimes, I think the realfruit comes from choosing to
trust God, despite notunderstanding why this is
happening, or not understandingwhat's happening or
(32:44):
understanding where the hope maybe in this situation.
Placing your trust in God andhaving faith that God will, you
know, make your path straight inthe end is is, I think, where
the real fruit comes from.
You know to to quote like theold, like Greek mythology and
the Odyssey, for instance,sometimes the greatest benefits
come from the journey and notnecessarily the destination
(33:06):
itself, you know so.
So I think I've grown a lot andmatured and and a lot of ways
in my relationship with Godbecause of the process of
grappling with these questions,not necessarily because I made
it out on the other end, okay,you know, which is just the
added benefit of going throughthat process.
So I think that's myencouragement.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
I am very grateful that you made it out okay.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Me too.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
And I pray to God every day for this outcome.
But I do pray for Glenn as welland, just like you, I hope to
see.
I believe there is a reason whyGod allowed this to happen in
your life and I want to see thefruit of that in his life.
For whatever reason, his lifewas connected to ours and I want
(33:54):
to see the fruit from there.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
And the only thing I'll I'll add to that is, you
know, I think that the biggestpiece of advice that I mentioned
is is that I think sometimesgod invites you to wrestle with
him and that's when, when he,when you receive the the biggest
insider revelation of what he'sdoing, and and choosing to to
kind of lock in and do that is,I think, what God invites us to
do sometimes, and you know, Idon't have an answer for why bad
(34:20):
things happen to good people,but sometimes God reveals his
full glory in those situations,and I think that's been true in
my case.
I think.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well, thank you for this word and I hope it will
serve as an encouragement to ourlisteners.
Word and I hope it will serveas an encouragement to our
listeners.
Philip's story is a powerfulreminder that forgiveness is not
just an emotion.
It's a decision, and the onethat requires faith, surrender
and trust in God's justice.
(34:49):
By the way, philip will besharing a more detailed version
of his story at the GreaterPurpose Conference on April 11th
in Branson, missouri, at theThousand Hills Resort.
For those of you listening, Iknow some of you are struggling
today with the weight ofinjustice.
Maybe you've been deeply hurtand the idea of forgiving feels
(35:14):
unbearable.
Maybe you're waiting forjustice and it's not coming in
the way or at the time youexpected.
If that's you, I want to leaveyou with this truth Justice
belongs to the Lord, his justiceis perfect and His grace is
relentless.
When we forgive, we're notsaying that evil doesn't matter.
(35:36):
We are entrusting it to theonly one who can judge rightly
and redeem fully.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, share it with a friend
, leave a review or reach out tous with your thoughts.
Our email is podcast atrfwmaorg.
(35:58):
I hope to see you at theGreater Purpose Conference on
April 9th, 10th and 11th inBranson, missouri, at the
Thousand Hills Resort.
We have incredible speakerslined up for you.
Wonderful worship, just a timefor you to be refreshed in your
faith and perhaps connect toyour greater purpose.
(36:19):
Please check out our website,rfwmaorg for more details and
how to register.
Thank you for listening.
I'm Helen Todd, and until nexttime may you walk both in truth
and grace transformation.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Christ called his followers to make disciples
across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(37:00):
through short-term missions inover 32 countries across the
globe.
If you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving, check out our website
rfwmaorg and find out how to getinvolved.
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, the podcast where we
explore the deep questions offaith, purpose and what it means
to live out the calling ofChrist in a broken world.
I'm your host, helen Todd.
Today we're tackling adifficult but essential topic
the tension between justice andgrace.
(00:37):
What do you do when you havebeen wronged, when someone
commits an act of violence,betrayal or injustice against us
?
How are we supposed to respond?
Justice feels right, butsometimes it seems like God
takes a long time to administerjustice.
Forgiveness feels impossible,and grace?
(01:00):
Well.
Grace sometimes feels unfair,but as Christians, we're called
to both justice and grace.
How do we hold these thingstogether without compromising
one for the other?
My guest today knows thisstruggle firsthand.
Two years ago, my son, philipTodd, who lives in Washington DC
(01:25):
, survived a brutal andunprovoked attack by a stranger
with a knife.
His injuries werelife-threatening and while he
has made a full physicalrecovery, his attacker has yet
to face trial due to ongoingmental health concerns.
Despite all of this, philip andmy husband and myself we chose
(01:48):
to forgive.
So this story is one of painbut also of hope, and today
we'll explore what it means topursue justice while extending
grace, and how forgiveness canbe both freeing and costly, and
where we find peace when justiceseems delayed or denied.
(02:09):
Hello Philip, welcome toLimitless Spirit.
How are you today?
I'm doing good, thanks forhaving me record this interview
with you, since this is thesecond year anniversary of the
story that was very profound inyour life, in my life as your
(02:32):
mom, and I think that we have alot to talk about.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
It sounds good.
I'm looking forward to jumpingin.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
So you know, in the life of a Christian there is
this tension between justice andgrace.
In fact, if you think about it,these are two concepts that
could be seen in conflict witheach other, and I think that
(03:00):
your story is a really greatillustration.
It's hard for me to feeldetached from it and talk about
it from the philosophicalconcept, but I really want to
dig in into this aspect of yourstory.
So it's an example of sufferingand injustice, and when
(03:20):
something like this happens, thenatural instinct is often anger
or desire for retribution.
So, now that two years havepassed, tell us how did you
wrestle with those emotions inthe aftermath of the attack?
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think my story is unique insome respect.
I think my story is unique insome respect I think we talked
previously through the entiretyof the story but I think the
unique part of my story is thatGod was gracious to me in the
sense that the moment that myattack happened was probably the
moment I was seeking God themost in my life and, of course,
(04:00):
since then I've tried to seekGod even more.
But I think it was unique inthe sense that I was my heart
posture was probably differentthan it was prior.
My level of obedience at thatmoment in my life was much
larger and higher than it was inprevious points in my life, and
so I think the graciousness Iwas referring to from God in
(04:22):
that respect was prettyimmediately after my attack.
I felt like the Lord promptedme and prompted you guys to
pretty quickly forgive and prayfor Glenn, and I think the
process of doing that actuallyended up, you know, in some
respects shielding me from a lotof suffering like emotional
(04:42):
suffering and trauma.
Shielding me from a lot ofsuffering like emotional
suffering and trauma.
And you know, I remember, evenin my visits to the doctor as I
was recovering, all the doctorskept saying, well, do you have
any traumatic dreams, do youhave any PTSD, you know, are you
able to walk without a lot offear or, like you know,
nervousness or anxiety oranything like that?
And I kept saying, yeah, no, Ihaven't had any of it.
(05:03):
I think it really is by thegrace of God.
And they said, well, even ifyou don't have it now, you
likely will have this.
Just be ready for it.
Be ready that it's going tocome and it's okay, because it's
a very normal reaction.
But, by the grace of God, thatreally never happened and I
think that was again due to afew functions One, the Lord
(05:27):
being gracious of allowing thisevent to happen in the moment
that I was ready to handle it,for lack of a better term.
But two, in the sense that Godwas gracious enough to prompt
that so quickly in the recoveryprocess that I think it did
shield me from a little bit ofemotional suffering.
But I guess, to go back to youroriginal question, was how did
I wrestle with these feelings?
I think there was a little bitof a wrestle, and maybe not the
(05:49):
way that you would typicallythink.
I think the real wrestle was.
I live in a city that's verypolitical and that's very quick
to kind of capitalize on acrisis, and oftentimes that's a
good thing, oftentimes that's abad thing, and I think the verse
that comes to mind whenthinking about this is you know,
be slow to speak and quick tolisten.
(06:10):
I'm paraphrasing.
I don't remember the nature ofmy work because of the nature of
this city.
There was a lot of pressure,initially to have an opinion, to
have a stance, you know, tospeak out against crime or to
(06:31):
speak, you know, on the otherside, to speak against the
political nature of people whowant to crack down on crime or
whatever it may be.
And I think the thing that wasdifficult for me was, you know,
at one point I didn't want tothrow away a moment that was
definitely God-given.
At the same time, I want tosteward that moment well and
consider, like you mentioned,the tension between grace and
(06:53):
justice, the tension betweenforgiveness and retribution, you
know, both of which areimportant in all cases.
But I think that was the tensionthat I wrestled with a lot
during my recovery over the lasttwo years.
Frankly, I'm still wrestlingwith it in some respect of
knowing when to speak, when notto speak, when to speak
(07:14):
specifically on crime, when tospeak specifically on
forgiveness, and I think there'sdifferent contexts that are
more appropriate for each.
But it is a wrestle that I'vebeen wrestling with for the last
two years, especially because,in a lot of respects, this story
isn't closed it's still an opencourt case, it's still an open
discussion here in DC and, infact, maybe even ramped up even
(07:35):
more, and so I think it'sinteresting that my wrestle was
not necessarily with the directemotional trauma of the
situation, but more about howcan I be a proper mouthpiece for
God in this situation, or howcan I steward the one, the, you
know, the giftings and the factthat he saved me from death in
(07:56):
this situation and was graciousto me to prevent me from having
emotional trauma or lastinginjuries or whatever, in a way
that's still honoring to him,you know, and honoring all of
those gifts that he gave me,while still not, you know,
letting this moment wisp awaytoo.
So I don't know if that answersyour question or not, but I
think that's one of the wrestlesthat I've been having now.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Well, and it is very true that your situation is
unique because your injurieswere very, very serious, but you
recovered from them in aremarkably short amount of time
and seemingly with noconsequences.
So let's hypothetically and Ihate to even steer the
(08:38):
conversation in this directionbut let's say that you did
suffer, but let's say that youdid suffer serious consequences
in your health, whether it'sphysical health or mental health
, do you think that yourforgiveness would still remain?
Do you think you would notharbor at least some resentment
(09:01):
towards the person who, for noreason, caused you these
injuries?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Well, maybe I'll reframe the question real quick
before I answer.
I think one function well, oneI should caveat there were
challenges, I think, in myrecovery and there were moments
of frustration in the sense thatyou know, I essentially lost I
wouldn't say lost, but you knowmy life halted for probably two
or three months or so before Iwas able to come back to DC.
(09:27):
And even when I was able tocome back to DC, I had to,
unfortunately, ease my way backinto a pretty mentally and
emotionally demanding job, andso that was a frustrating part
about it, and I think there weresome complications as well that
I had this sort of mental focusand vision that we've talked
about before and stuff like that.
(09:48):
So it wasn't without a hitch.
But I think the interestingpart is that I think the
question that you're asking hereis had I had you know, had my
experience been a lot worse,would the forgiveness still be
there?
I tend to think, because myinjuries were so severe that the
forgiveness had to have playeda role within the speedy
recovery.
(10:08):
If that makes sense, I almostthink the reverse where it's
like, I think, the fact that Iwas able to forgive so quickly
and again, that was all.
I wish I could claim it as myown strength there, but it
really wasn't.
It was the prompting of theLord and the Holy Spirit, but I
think because we forgave soquickly, that's why it led to
such quick recovery.
I think had it taken me alittle bit of time to muster up
(10:31):
the courage and to wrestle withthe frustration that I had
towards him or the frustrationof the situation, I tend to
think that would be highlycorrelated with the length of
time of my recovery as well, andyou know it's not always that.
I think every situation'sdifferent and sometimes even the
people that are ready toforgive immediately are still
gonna have long periods ofrecovery.
So I'm not saying it's like aformula by any means, but I do
(10:54):
think rejecting that mentalityof victimhood is important in
the recovery process, and Ithink that was true in my
recovery process and true of alot of people that I've seen go
through similar rough situations.
I think, understanding that youknow, despite how dreary the
situation may be, that God stillhas a plan and God can redeem
(11:15):
those situations.
I think that was one of theverses I kept quoting through my
recovery is Genesis 50, 20,which is, you know what the
enemy meant for evil.
The Lord meant for good, forthe saving of many lives.
You know and he's speaking toJoseph in that specific
situation which Joseph had itmuch worse than I did and Joseph
had it much worse than many ofmy colleagues had.
Yet he was elevated at the endof his career and end of his
(11:37):
life to be in charge over Egyptso he could save the nation.
You know it's he wasn't able tosee that in the moment, but I
think that's when I'm having themindset that like and faith and
trust in God that he can stillredeem any situation is critical
to your attitude and your your,I think your physical recovery
in the midst of it too.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So I don't know again if that answers your question,
but I think that sometimespeople struggle with forgiveness
because they somehow feel thatby forgiving the person who
wronged them, they're erasingthe consequences of sin.
So what would you say tosomeone who feels that forgiving
(12:18):
a person who wronged them meansbetraying their own pain or the
pain of others?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And how do you differentiate between forgiving
someone and excusing theiractions?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, I think this is and this is kind of going back
to your initial point about thetension between forgiveness and
justice.
I think it's interestingbecause when you look at
scripture and you look at yourunderstanding of God more
broadly, I think there's thissort of tension kind of inherent
throughout all of scripture.
You know you have the tensionbetween, like, the Paul points
of grace and the James points offruit.
(12:54):
You know, faith without worksis dead is what James says and
Paul says.
You know that grace abounds.
You know faith without works isdead is what James says and
Paul says.
You know that grace abounds.
You know, in all situations andstuff, that's one tension.
You've also got the tension ofGod's goodness and God's
greatness too, you know, and soyou see this kind of in my
opinion, a very similar tensionthroughout all of faith, and I
think it plays out here too.
I don't think that they'remutually exclusive, as much as
(13:16):
the world would like to say thatthey're mutually exclusive.
It seems to me that, yeah, forthere to be true justice, there
probably needs.
Let me take a step back.
I think there's two differentresponsibilities.
For someone in my shoes,probably From my perspective, it
seems like you have aresponsibility to forgive,
regardless of what justice lookslike for that person or if he's
(13:38):
received justice or if hehasn't received justice.
Regardless of the circumstances, I think the responsibility is
to forgive, because that's whatthe Lord, that's what Jesus
taught us, that's the examplethat Jesus showed us.
You know, and in a lot of casesJesus used the analogy of
turning the other cheek.
You know when you're struck.
My understanding of thosepassages is that Jesus is not
saying turn your other cheek inhopes that that person will
(14:01):
eventually receive what he'sowed.
You know, I think it's turnyour other cheek in faith that
God is going to redeem it.
You know, redeem whateveryou're going through and that
God's going to honor yourfaithfulness in those moments of
trial and tribulation.
So I think that the importanceof forgiveness is not it is
intention with and not mutuallyexclusive to the concept of
(14:23):
justice or the concept ofconsequences of sin, as you
mentioned.
The responsibility is notrelated.
Your responsibility or ourresponsibility as Christians is,
I think, to forgive in allcases.
Forgive 99 times, as the Lordsays, you know.
Whereas I also think that, onthe same token, to forgive
someone does not erase therequirement for justice, it does
(14:48):
not erase the need for societyto impose justice, it does not
erase the fact that God seesthat as an injustice.
You know, I think it's more ofa point of understanding whose
responsibility is whom, and Ithink the theme that you see
throughout scripture is that ourresponsibility is to show the
love of Christ.
It's God's responsibility totake vengeance and to seek
(15:09):
justice.
And I say that maybe with somecaveats, because I do think that
there's a role that all of uscan play in that process of
justice and a role that we allshould play in that concept of
justice, and maybe we'll talkabout that a little bit later as
well.
But I think that the primaryresponsibility we have is to
exhibit the love of Christ atall times, and I think it is a
(15:31):
wrong way to perceive Jesus aswhen he exhibits forgiveness or
when he exhibits sort of thetenderhearted nature or
characters of God, to see thatas weakness.
Because in reality, I thinkoftentimes and this was said by
a lot of my mentors and I thinkI've seen it in a lot of other
people's cases too oftentimes ittakes a lot more strength to do
(15:53):
something that culture wouldsay you shouldn't, do you know?
So, I think, despite not havingan earthly reason to forgive
somebody still choosing toforgive and give and trust God
that he's going to redeem thesituation often requires a lot
more strength, and so I thinkit's often a dichotomy that
shouldn't exist, even though Iknow the earthly society would
(16:13):
tell you that that's a tension.
Forgiveness and the fact thatit could erase the consequences
of sin, I think it's just arecognition that that's not your
responsibility to administerthe consequences you know.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So, speaking of justice, one of the biggest
struggles people have is whenjustice doesn't come on their
timeline or doesn't come at all,and so, in your case, your
attacker has not faced trial dueto mental health concerns.
So how have you processed that?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, that's been one of the tensions.
To go back to your firstquestion, I think that's been
one of the tensions that I'vereally wrestled with.
You know, I knew that myoriginal, my initial
responsibility was to forgive,and then, at least the way I was
first processing this, mythought was my immediate
responsibility is to forgive.
It's the justice system'sresponsibility to administer
justice, and I think the wayI've continued thinking about
(17:08):
this is that I internally holdno ill will, no ill will towards
Glenn, my attacker.
I have truly, I think, by thegrace of God and with the help
of God and with the help of theHoly Spirit, been able to
completely relieve myself of anyhatred or frustration or
anything like that towards Glenn.
Yet, at the same time, I thinkthe importance of justice is
(17:29):
still there, in the sense that Iwas blessed in my situation
with having a wonderful church,a wonderful community, a
wonderful family.
You know the means to make itthrough that hospital situation,
the connections to navigate,all of the difficulties that
come with working through thathospital system, and you know I
could go on and on about all theblessings that I had.
(17:50):
In the midst of this, I thinkit's also the case that there
could be someone walking downthat same street as me who
doesn't have all of thosebenefits built into their life
that would not have handled itas well, and I was millimeters
from death.
It could have been death forsomeone else too.
So there's a function ofjustice that I think is
important.
Beyond the specific person youknow, beyond me and in my case
(18:12):
I'll just speak specifically tomy case I think there's an
importance of justice that'soutside of how I feel or what my
feelings are towards thesituation.
That's important.
I think.
The frustration of not seeingthat justice is, I think,
perhaps a selfish one.
In some respect.
It's one that I have.
I'm not saying that I don'thave it, but I think trusting
(18:35):
that God is in control is thefirst thing that I've really had
to grapple with.
And then, on doing so, trustingthat in the midst of this
process, that where there'sinjustices in our system, where
there's injustices in the waythat Glenn is being handled or
in the way that the case isbeing handled, or whatever,
trusting that God will bringthat to light and that there
will be some movement taken.
(18:56):
And so I think the tensionthat's there is that, yes, the
justice system moves slowly, Ithink, typically, our justice
system has done a pretty goodjob at administering justice,
but I think, now being in themiddle of it, the one thing I've
realized is that things movereally slowly, things are not
always just as I would havehoped them to have been, and
that the concept or thedefinition of justice is not
(19:17):
always just as I would havehoped them to have been, and
that the concept or thedefinition of justice is not
always an easy one too.
Because I think, you know,without getting into too many
particulars, the difficulty ofGlenn's situation is that he
does have a lot of mental healthconcerns and a lot of those.
While I'm not saying that heshouldn't be in prison or he
shouldn't be in jail, I reallydo think he should because he's
probably a danger to society.
(19:38):
I think it's also the case thata lot of what probably happens
in our prison systems is notnecessarily going to fix his
ultimate problem, which is hismental health and, from my
perspective, his spiritualhealth more broadly.
And so I think, understandingwhat justice looks like, I think
justice in this case again, Idon't want to speak out of turn
or, you know, without knowingall the details yet, and a lot
(20:00):
of those details are still beinguncovered but seemingly someone
who's a menace to society.
Justice still would includeprison or removing that person
from society so that he can't orshe can't inflict harm on
anyone else.
But justice might also bebeyond that.
There's a chance that it stillmay be unjust to just leave them
in that situation withouttrying to address the other
(20:22):
things that are going on.
And I'm not talking about justa legal definition of justice.
I'm talking about more broadlywhat a Christian American person
or individual's concept ofjustice ought to be is what I
mean more broadly by that.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And while it is, for me personally, extremely
frustrating how long thisprocess is taking, I remind
myself that God's timing isperfect and nothing is hidden
before God and ultimately wehave to trust Him that the
ultimate justice will be given,Glenn, and on God's timing and
(21:01):
on God's terms.
So let's talk about this in thecontext of a church.
So church often struggles tobalance compassion for victims
with the call to love those whocommit terrible crimes, to love
those who commit terrible crimes.
So what do you think the churchshould be doing to uphold both
justice and grace in a way thatreflects?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Yeah, it's a good question and I guess, to relate
it to my previous answer, Ithink understanding what justice
is is important in this context, because I think there's a
legal and a societal definitionof not just definition but but
way of administering justicethat's still right and righteous
in many cases and still oughtto be pursued, and oftentimes
(21:44):
that literally means you knowdetention, or that literally
means you know court case, orwhatever it may be.
You know the way we think ofjustice or criminal justice in
the modern context.
But I think where the churchought to play more of a role,
and something that I've been alittle bit more passionate about
in this last year, isadministering the holistic
(22:04):
justice, or the remaining partsof justice that's not handled by
our government, which in a lotof cases, I think that's what
happens after someone like Glennserves his full term and is
released, you know, or whathappens while Glenn is in prison
too, you know, I think thechurch has a big role to play in
that case, in the sense of likeokay, if we really believe that
God can redeem men and women,if we really believe that God
(22:26):
can change hearts and minds andif we really believe that, as
we've seen evidence of inscripture that God meets people
in prisons, then the churchshould really be in the prison
system as well.
I think there's a lot of greatministries doing good work in
the prison system and there's alot of challenges to doing work
in the prison system too.
So I think what I would like tosee is the church being on the
front lines of that and thefront lines of trying to figure
(22:47):
out what it looks like, not justto correct the hearts and minds
of people who have fallen intoa life of crime, but also take
preventative steps intopreventing those people from
falling into a life of crime tobegin with and that's where I
think the church can play alarge role in is investing
heavily in their communities,investing heavily in low income
areas, investing heavily inprison ministry to investing
(23:08):
heavily in what postincarcerated life looks like for
those folks too, and I thinkthere's a lot of ways that the
church can jump in in thatrespect.
That again, I think my situationwas unique in a lot of ways,
but I think that maybe if thechurch was a lot more involved,
could have prevented a lot ofcases similar to mine from
happening to begin with.
And that's where I think thechurch ought to be involved is I
(23:28):
think the church really shouldbe on the front lines of forming
culture and the front lines ofinviting and trying to bring
these people that otherwisewould fall into a life of crime
into their communion with Jesus,and so I think that's what I'd
really like to see the church doin terms of administering
justice, and I think there's alot of other things that we
(23:48):
could add to that too.
I think teaching the concept ofreconciliation, teaching the
concept of forgiveness andteaching the concept of, also
civil participation,participating in the justice
process from a governmental andlegal perspective too, is, I
think, an equally importantaspect of this that the church
should also be promoting.
I think so.
I think I personally would liketo see the church involved in
(24:11):
all aspects of this, and Ireally think that if we want to
see a just society, that's notpossible without the church, and
in a lot of ways I think thechurch has been a little slow to
join this conversation andtrying to neatly stay in the
lane.
That's comfortable to them,which is great, but you know,
there's room to expand thosetent pegs into different
functions of society that Idon't think the church has
(24:32):
typically been as involved in asI would like to see.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, I think that's a whole different conversation
because that leads to manyfollow-up questions that I would
have to all of this on what isthe role of the church in
society.
But let's jump back into yourstory.
So do you feel that thisexperience changed the way you
(24:55):
see justice and grace in yourlife and in the world in general
?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, I think so.
I think one thing that Imentioned at the beginning of
the call was that there was,particularly because the nature
of my work is very political andI live in a very political city
I think that there wasimmediately a lot of microphones
shoved in my face right aftermy attack, and so, I think,
trying to understand exactlywell one.
(25:21):
I think the first big lessonthat I learned in this case is
that I think justice is notalways an easy concept to
grapple with, and I think,understanding what justice is I
think justice is objective, ofcourse justice is.
I think justice is objective,of course, but I think that what
an objective form of justicelooks like can look many
different ways depending on thecase, depending on the person
(25:42):
and depending on thecircumstances, and so I think
that's one thing that I'velearned is that I think I used
to have a very black and whiteview of what crime and
punishment ought to look like insociety, and in a lot of ways,
that hasn't changed and a lot ofother ways that has changed.
And understanding you know thisis a messy process.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Well, give me some examples, some examples here.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Well, I think you know, for instance, the
immediate reaction in my casewas that, okay, you've got a lot
of crime at that in thatparticular year and it's ebbed
and flowed since then, but in2023, I believe crime, and
specifically violent crime in DC, was at an all-time high.
I think the immediate reactionis like, okay, you know, this is
we need to, and I still thinkwe do.
(26:25):
I'm not discounting thesepolicy measures by any means,
but I think my case, beingjoined with a lot of other cases
that happened that year, was apart of the political momentum
in that particular cycle.
We need to really crack down oncrime in DC.
We really need to add to, youknow, the sentencing.
We need to add more judges, weneed to add more police officers
(26:46):
.
We need to do, we need to spendmore money on our police force
and stuff like that.
All of those might be true andI think a lot of in a lot of
ways, lot of ways.
Those are all great things, butI think when you stop and think
about my particular situation,it becomes a little bit more
complex.
When you look at Glenn'ssituation, it wasn't that he was
just I mean, he wasn't part ofa gang.
(27:06):
As far as we know, he wasn'tpart of the typical definition
of what violent crime in DClooks like, which is usually
gang violence or, in other cases, oftentimes the youth in DC.
He was a man who had served afull sentence in prison.
He didn't get out early, hedidn't get, or as far as we know
I mean details are still comingfor that but as far as we know
(27:27):
he served the full sentence.
As far as we know, he wasn'tproblematic inmate, as far as
you know again, all thesedetails are still ongoing.
But I think the unique partabout Glenn is that, seemingly
fine, served his sentence,released from prison, from on
paper, the criminal justicesystem worked, you know, in his
case.
But then 12 hours later, 24hours later, he randomly stabs a
(27:50):
person walking by on the streetfor no cause, for no reason or
anything like that.
And so trying to understandwhat justice looks like in his
specific circumstance or with myspecific situation, I think is
much different than your typicalgang violence or you know what
is it?
Teen troublemakers and stufflike that, you know.
And so I think trying tounderstand exactly what the one,
(28:10):
what my role to play is and,two, what are ways that we can
really get to the root of theproblem with Glenn, which I
don't think is done through yourtypical measures.
When you're thinking aboutcriminal justice more broadly
With Glenn, it seems to me thata lot of that is like, in my
opinion, still really needs arelationship with God, a
relationship with Jesus, andthen from a more kind of secular
(28:31):
perspective and not justsecular but from a maybe more
rationalist perspective hereally does need a lot more
mental health treatment andstuff, and maybe there's another
procedure that needs to beadministered before he's fully
released in society and left tohis own devices and stuff.
And so, you know, there's a lotof conversation about like
halfway houses and stuff likethat, and I think justice in
(28:51):
this case is trying tounderstand exactly the
institutional framework behindthis situation and what can be
done within that framework toprevent something like that
happening from someone who'sless fortunate than I, either
ending their life or puttingthem in a position where they
may never recover.
Fortunate in my situation, butI really in many ways, the
(29:15):
severity of the injuries, theseverity of the situation would
have left many, many peoplewithout answers after this, and
so I think justice in that caseis trying to figure out exactly
and have a little bit moreempathy for the specific
situation and willing to getmore into the weeds on the
specific situation than juststaying at the top level and
taking the easy politicallow-hanging fruit there, and so
(29:38):
that's just one example of waysthat I've been grappling with
the situation is.
It's not a clean answer, it'snot a clear-cut answer.
Yes, justice still needs to beadministered.
Yes, I want to see justice inthe court case in particular.
Yes, I want to see him probablysentenced and put back into
prison, frankly, or at least,you know, in some capacity not
(29:59):
out on the streets, I should say.
But I also would love to seeGlenn brought back to full
health and Glenn brought back tohis full mental capacities and
Glenn brought to a relationshipwith Jesus at some point.
And, frankly, I would love tomeet him personally and pray for
him personally too.
Right now he's not in a statewhere I can do that, and so I
(30:19):
think to me that's what justicelooks like in Glenn's case, and
there are thousands of differentpermutations of what crime
looks like in this city, in thiscountry, in this world, and I
don't think it's an easy orclean answer to know what
justice looks like in each ofthose cases.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
So if someone listening today is battling with
the weight of injustice, maybein their own life or with what
is happening in the world, whatencouragement would you offer?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
I think one thing that gave me a lot of peace
throughout my situation is thatwhen you look throughout
Scripture, you know I'm doing myyear through the Bible again
this year and I'm in just pastthe passage with Jacob wrestling
with God, for instance, andthat's, I think, maybe the first
of many examples throughoutScripture of there being fruit
when you choose to lock in andwrestle with God.
(31:17):
You know, I think that's oneway to form the analogy, for all
the times you see it inScripture, whether it be Job,
whether it be you know, whetherit be Paul, or whether it be so
many different examplesthroughout Scripture of people
who may not know what's going onJoseph, for instance, who may
not know what's going on at themoment, who may not know what's
going on at the moment, who maynot know what's going on in
their specific situation, andfrom all kind of aspects that
(31:39):
you can tell it looks like hopeis lost.
It looks like this is awful,the world has won, the devil is
afflicting you and stuff likethat.
But I think, putting your faithin Jesus, I think, and putting
your faith in God and choosingto wrestle with God in those
circumstances, I think one thingthat's striking to me as I read
through the Psalms is how manytimes that David was in a
(32:00):
position of anguish.
You know, and I think thatposition of anguish is included
in Scripture for a reason, and Ithink that's because sometimes
you get the most fruit fromdeciding to still choose to seek
God in those situations, stillchoosing to bring your burdens
to the Lord in that situation.
And you know, one of my favoriteverses in Proverbs 3, 5 says
trusting in the Lord with allyour heart and lean not on your
(32:22):
own understanding.
And I think that's the mostinteresting part of the verse is
that you know, God gave you amind and we often use that mind
to think through the situationsand how things ought to be, or
to think about what justicelooks like in our situation.
But oftentimes, I think the realfruit comes from choosing to
trust God, despite notunderstanding why this is
happening, or not understandingwhat's happening or
(32:44):
understanding where the hope maybe in this situation.
Placing your trust in God andhaving faith that God will, you
know, make your path straight inthe end is is, I think, where
the real fruit comes from.
You know to to quote like theold, like Greek mythology and
the Odyssey, for instance,sometimes the greatest benefits
come from the journey and notnecessarily the destination
(33:06):
itself, you know so.
So I think I've grown a lot andmatured and and a lot of ways
in my relationship with Godbecause of the process of
grappling with these questions,not necessarily because I made
it out on the other end, okay,you know, which is just the
added benefit of going throughthat process.
So I think that's myencouragement.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
I am very grateful that you made it out okay.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Me too.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
And I pray to God every day for this outcome.
But I do pray for Glenn as welland, just like you, I hope to
see.
I believe there is a reason whyGod allowed this to happen in
your life and I want to see thefruit of that in his life.
For whatever reason, his lifewas connected to ours and I want
(33:54):
to see the fruit from there.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
And the only thing I'll I'll add to that is, you
know, I think that the biggestpiece of advice that I mentioned
is is that I think sometimesgod invites you to wrestle with
him and that's when, when he,when you receive the the biggest
insider revelation of what he'sdoing, and and choosing to to
kind of lock in and do that is,I think, what God invites us to
do sometimes, and you know, Idon't have an answer for why bad
(34:20):
things happen to good people,but sometimes God reveals his
full glory in those situations,and I think that's been true in
my case.
I think.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well, thank you for this word and I hope it will
serve as an encouragement to ourlisteners.
Word and I hope it will serveas an encouragement to our
listeners.
Philip's story is a powerfulreminder that forgiveness is not
just an emotion.
It's a decision, and the onethat requires faith, surrender
and trust in God's justice.
(34:49):
By the way, philip will besharing a more detailed version
of his story at the GreaterPurpose Conference on April 11th
in Branson, missouri, at theThousand Hills Resort.
For those of you listening, Iknow some of you are struggling
today with the weight ofinjustice.
Maybe you've been deeply hurtand the idea of forgiving feels
(35:14):
unbearable.
Maybe you're waiting forjustice and it's not coming in
the way or at the time youexpected.
If that's you, I want to leaveyou with this truth Justice
belongs to the Lord, his justiceis perfect and His grace is
relentless.
When we forgive, we're notsaying that evil doesn't matter.
(35:36):
We are entrusting it to theonly one who can judge rightly
and redeem fully.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, share it with a friend
, leave a review or reach out tous with your thoughts.
Our email is podcast atrfwmaorg.
(35:58):
I hope to see you at theGreater Purpose Conference on
April 9th, 10th and 11th inBranson, missouri, at the
Thousand Hills Resort.
We have incredible speakerslined up for you.
Wonderful worship, just a timefor you to be refreshed in your
faith and perhaps connect toyour greater purpose.
(36:19):
Please check out our website,rfwmaorg for more details and
how to register.
Thank you for listening.
I'm Helen Todd, and until nexttime may you walk both in truth
and grace transformation.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Christ called his followers to make disciples
across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(37:00):
through short-term missions inover 32 countries across the
globe.
If you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving, check out our website
rfwmaorg and find out how to getinvolved.
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