December 18, 2024 • 38 mins
World migration has 281 million people today living in countries and culture not their own. How can the church meet the needs of multicultural congreagations? Do we have to adjust theology to reach the people of different cultures with the Gospel?
Host Helen Todd talks with Osoba Otaigbe, about the role of cultural intelligence in today's diverse church settings. Osoba, a Baptist minister and author, provides an interesting perspective on how cultural backgrounds may influence the interpretation of scripture, using the parable of the prodigal son to illustrate these differences. The conversation delves into the concept of cultural intelligence, its methods, goals and pitfalls.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to another episode of Limitless Spirit.
Have you recently assessedyourself or your church for
cultural intelligence?
If you don't know what culturalintelligence is and you don't
know why it matters to you,today's episode is a great place
(00:36):
for you to learn.
According to World MigrationReport, in the year 2024, there
are 281 million people living incountries and cultures that are
not their own as internationalmigrants.
Immigration and its effect oncultures is a sore spot in
(00:58):
political debates, but how doesthe church equip itself to
navigate multiculturalcongregations and how do we
effectively share the gospelacross cultural barriers?
My guest today is Asoba Otaibe,and our conversation is the
proof that there are no simpleanswers to the many challenges
(01:22):
of cross-cultural ministry.
Answers to the many challengesof cross-cultural ministry
Osilva Otaibi wrote a bookcalled Building Cultural
Intelligence in Church andMinistry.
He is a Baptist minister whoworks for the Bible Society in
the United Kingdom and he isalso the host of Intercultural
Church and City TransformationGathering.
(01:44):
He brings a valuableperspective to the issue of
cultural intelligence.
However, as you will hear fromthe interview, while we agree on
the end goals, we do notnecessarily agree on all the
methods of overcoming thesechallenges.
Let's dive in.
Good morning, Asoba, or bettersay good afternoon in the United
(02:08):
Kingdom.
While it's morning here inMissouri, I think late afternoon
in the UK.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm good.
Good morning, Helen.
Great to meet you.
I'm really good.
It's been a lovely day heretoday.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Well, thank you for agreeing to do this interview.
I know you're very busy, but Ithink that the subject of our
conversation is very important,because cultural diversity is
shaping every aspect of societytoday.
So why do you think culturalintelligence is such a pressing
(02:45):
issue for churches andministries, and even Christians
in general?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, I think that's a very good question.
I mean three key things andchurch members.
As immigration, cross-culturalinteractions and even
technological advances makediverse communities more common
(03:11):
these days, leaders shouldunderstand and navigate cultural
differences to engageeffectively with members from
different backgrounds, whetheraddressing the unique needs of
refugees, integrating culturaltraditions into worship or
(03:32):
fostering unity across ethnic,generational or national divides
.
So cultural intelligenceenables leaders to build
inclusive, compassionateministry that appreciates
cultural diversity, but also tobuild trust and create welcoming
environments where people feelvalued and ultimately just
(03:55):
promoting unity in God's purpose.
But I think it's good to kindof explain what is cultural
intelligence.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I think it's good to and we're going to jump right
into this.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
But before we go there, I want to ask what are
the consequences that churchesor individuals face?
When you look at the Bible, theBible clearly speaks of the
idea and truth of a one God whocreated all human beings.
But also the Bible talks aboutone family adopted as a family
(04:42):
of God.
No Jews, no Gentiles, allfamily of God were adopted.
Then there's the one missionall called to the Great
Commission, go and makedisciples.
But also one message, themessage of love, grace,
redemption, shalom, love God,love your neighbor as you love
yourself.
Then there's the one spirit whoenables us one audience to all
(05:06):
nations.
Then there is also the finaldestination.
Revelation 7 talks about amultitude of people from all
nations, language, people beforethe throne worshiping, and I
think if we don't connect acrossculture, we lose the essence of
that oneness.
You know that one family, thatone mission.
(05:29):
We are adopted and we arecalled to love one another.
I think one key thing is it'seasy to love those who are like
us, but it's more challenging tolove those who are not like us.
But we are called to love alland to reach all nations.
We should be able to connectwith others.
(05:49):
And apart from that too, Ithink read the Bible.
Culture shapes the way we readand interpret the Bible.
In my book I did share a story.
In my book, building CulturalIntelligence in Church and
Mission, I tell a story of MarkPowell's research, finally,
(06:09):
regarding different culturalresponses to the parable of the
prodigal son, because culturedoes shape how we read and
interpret the Bible.
Many years ago he carried out aresearch among Christians in
three different nations UnitedStates, russia and Tanzania.
He shared the story of theprodigal son.
(06:30):
After sharing that story, thequestion was asked in the US why
did the prodigal son end up inthe pig pen, in the pig house?
And the majority view ofChristians in America was that
the prodigal son ended up in thepig house because he squandered
his money.
And when that same research wastaken to Russia, majority over
(06:55):
80% said because there wasfamine in the land.
The same research was taken toTanzania, close to 90% said
because no one helped him, noone invited him into the house.
Who is correct?
Why are there differences inthese responses?
But if you look at the story,they are all partially correct.
(07:18):
But each culture looked at thattext, that story, from their own
lenses, looked at that text,that story, from their own
lenses and I think if we couldcome together to study and to
read the Bible together and justhelp each other through
different lenses to read ittogether.
It can be quite helpful, forinstance, to the Americans,
(07:39):
where many people or few peoplecan be an individualist and
capitalist society.
They saw it as a personalresponsibility.
He squandered his money and sohe's responsible and so he ended
up with the pig pen.
And to the Russian, because ofthe history of devastating
famine, you know, drought in the20s, 30s.
(08:01):
They resonated with that andthey kind of saw nature as a
problem.
But to the Africans, theTanzanian, which is more of a
collectivist society, where youhave the spirit of Ubuntu I am
because we are and their lens oflooking at the story was if
(08:21):
somebody had taken him into thishouse he would end up in the
pit pit.
So culture, if we don'trecognize that, we can miss
quite a lot.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Thank you for bringing up this example,
because you literally answeredmy next question.
Why should we consider thesecultural differences?
If the gospel is the truth,doesn't the truth translate into
every culture?
But your illustration justanswered that question is, yes,
(08:52):
the truth does translate, buthow we present the truth has to
consider the cultural backgroundof our listeners.
So let's talk about you.
So what inspired you todedicate your work to
cross-cultural ministry and whatrole has your personal
(09:14):
background played in shapingyour perspective?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Thank you so much for that.
Anyway, the asset you heartoday Helene's 75% Nigerian.
I'm originally from Nigeria,but also there's about 5% of
East London, 5% of SouthwestLondon.
I'm still trying to figure outwhere the balance percentage is
from.
So I mean, my journey beganfrom the business world because
(09:39):
I started when I finisheduniversity.
I read business, admin andcomputer and went straight into
the oil and gas business wherewe did quite a lot of work with
the multinational companies andthere I started interacting with
people from different cultures,studied, came to London,
studied at the Spurgeons College, led two very diverse Baptist
(10:00):
churches in London for 15 years.
They were quite very diverse.
The first one we had majorityit was a majority of white
English congregation, and here Iwas an African, but I saw how
God really used my ministryamongst that.
Apart from that, I was also thechair of the London Baptist
(10:22):
Mission Strategy Forum for manyyears where during the Olympics
London Olympics 2012, wemobilized about 300 Baptist
churches to engage with theLondon Olympics, and there I saw
the beauty and the challengesof diversity in the city, and so
(10:44):
that's actually one of thethings that encouraged me to
write my book my church ministryduring leading the mission
strategy forum and that's when Iwrote the Building Cultural
Intelligence in Church andMinistry where I began to run
workshops.
Because I saw opportunities, Isaw challenges.
Because I saw opportunities, Isaw challenges and I also saw
(11:09):
that if the church engagedproperly together we can't
really reach all nations withinthe city as our cities get so
diverse.
And currently I mean I'mworking on a major project,
working for Bible Society GatherMovement, which is a movement
that mobilizes the church andcharities for city
(11:29):
transformation, and by citytransformation we mean spiritual
, social and culturaltransformation of our cities and
towns, christians engaging inthat.
So the project I'm engaged withis on reimagining mission in
the UK and one of the thingswe're currently doing is
(11:49):
intercultural church and citytransformation.
Just looking at two bigquestions what would an
intercultural church look likein our cities and towns?
What impact can we make if wework together across cultures
for Christ's sake?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So, considering this work that you're doing from your
perspective, what are the mostsignificant cultural challenges
churches and individuals facetoday, both locally and globally
?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Last year I went to seven cities.
I'll just give you somepractical examples.
I went to seven cities.
I'll just give you somepractical examples.
I went to seven cities justengaging with church leaders.
And after that engagement wemet in January this year in
Leeds.
Leeds is a city in the UK andwe were having this conversation
(12:41):
just looking at what are thechallenges.
And we had a roundtableconversation where we had over
150 church leaders just lookingat the opportunity and
challenges and I think the keythings that came out was, first
and foremost, lack of vision andlack of leadership support.
(13:02):
Without a vision for culturaldiversity, church unity can
really fault us.
And also there's the languagebarriers.
But there's also culturaldifferences.
Cultural differences extendbeyond visible aspects, like
just singing, dressing, toinclude invisible.
But there are also other, youknow, underlying cultural values
(13:27):
, communication styles,understanding and navigating
these changes.
They require patience andopen-mindedness.
But there's also the bit offear and ignorance.
Fear and ignorance can hindermeaningful interaction and
foster barriers.
However, intercultural churchescan offer opportunities for
(13:48):
learning and growth.
Apart from that, there's alsoprejudice and biases, which can
lead to discrimination andexclusion.
I think there are some peoplethat think that migration is a
big problem.
But if you look at the Godstory, migration is rooted in it
.
Look at Abraham, look at Moses,daniel, joseph, david, the
(14:13):
people of Israel, even Jesus.
There's always movement.
You know people moving from oneplace.
So it's not just a new thingthat people are moving and I
think as we continue to teachabout this so that people can
understand, it's becoming quitehelpful.
But unfortunately there aresome few people who will support
(14:36):
that far-right thinking in somechurches, but I must say
they're very, very small innumber.
But thank God that the responsewas very, very good from the
church even from the communitiesin most cities to actually
connect.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
So can you share examples of churches and
ministries that are successfullynavigating cross-cultural
barriers and what made theirefforts effective?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
As we are just now.
I think we're still on alearning curve.
I mean, from my own experience,we are all trying to learn
together in the UK and that'swhy the intercultural churches
movement is on.
There are churches that havestarted the journey.
There are a lot of challengeswith it, but I think what we're
finding is that the interest isquite high.
(15:25):
People are getting reallyintentional about it, people are
getting proactive, they'retrying to learn.
How do I do these things?
For instance, we had a massmovement of migration from Hong
Kong and then many from Iran,and before that we had from
(15:46):
Africa.
Even before Africa you had fromthe Caribbean, but I think now
churches are learning to reallyengage properly.
So there are a few churchesthat are doing it very well
across, like in the city where Iam, there's the Audacious
Church, which is a very diversechurch.
(16:07):
I think one of the key thingsthat many churches, the
challenges they face, is how dothey actually take this to the
leadership level?
Because when you talk aboutintercultural, it doesn't get to
the leadership level wherepeople can see themselves in
those spaces.
Sometimes it can be quitedifficult to sustain it.
(16:32):
Difficult to sustain it, forinstance, where decisions are
made.
If there's nobody within theleadership level that
understands the Chinese cultureor the Iranian culture, it can
be quite difficult.
Let's just assume, for instance, a Muslim becomes a Christian
(16:55):
and they join a church, thatchurch needs to know that once
you become a Christian, as aMuslim, you leave your family
and if it's an individualisticculture, as you will find in
some churches, that person isgoing to within a short time is
going to go back, because ifthey leave their own family and
(17:18):
they enter a church, they don'treally have people to call.
This is my family.
They're not going to be able tostay in there for that long,
because everybody needs a family, especially when they're coming
from a collectivist culturewhere it's more of community,
from a collectivist culturewhere it's more of community.
And so we're learning to talkto churches that as you go on
(17:40):
this journey, you need peoplefrom those cultures in those
leadership spaces to kind ofadvise you, to kind of go the
long haul on the journey withyou, and we're seeing churches
that are actually doing it now,sending their leaders for
training.
And one thing I've warned someof them about is don't just pick
(18:02):
anyone who's not ready yet,because if you pick someone from
a culture that is not ready andyou put them in leadership and
they mess up.
You set yourself back 10 yearsbecause you're not going to even
try to go there any longer.
So take your time, train andwith time you know it does work.
(18:22):
So in terms of worship,churches are learning to adapt.
You know, just bringingdifferent kind of songs from
other languages to sing together, that's going very well.
And other languages to singtogether, that's going very well
.
Within the intercultural churchand city transformation, we are
redefining what does goodintercultural theology look like
(18:44):
?
You know, before now there wasthe understanding that there is
the theology and then othertheologies are contextual.
But the truth is who says thatall theologies are not
contextual?
Big question now is how doesthe centrality of Christ, how
does Christ bring all thosedifferent contextual theologies
(19:07):
together?
So we're looking for how do weconstruct a theology that
centers Christ when we come withour lenses, because we do not
see things as they are.
We see as we are.
It's only God and Christ thatcan see the big picture, because
he's not limited by time andspace.
But you and I, I can only seefrom my own lenses, I can only
(19:32):
see from my background, from mymother, from my teacher, from
all the places, spaces I've been, I won't be able to see from
another person's lenses.
So, and I think that's why,once we come under that big
umbrella centrality of Christbringing our own cultures and
lenses Christ can cleanse thatand we can choose that to his
(19:56):
glory.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Can you give me an example of contextual theologies
?
I guess I'm not fully followingyou by contextual theology.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
for instance, there was a term you know, when you
say there's a theology that isgeneral, you have Black theology
.
There are some people that sayblack theology, prosperity
theology, you have femininetheology and all racial justice.
(20:26):
You know reconciliationtheology, and then you have the
theology which is a kind of anumbrella, but what I was trying
to say there is even thetheology which is a kind of an
umbrella, but what I was tryingto say there is even the
theology which is the generalone that we've studied before.
It's in itself contextual,because those that constructed
(20:50):
it were from a particularculture.
And so what does theology mean?
We're looking at how do wescripture, tradition and culture
?
How do you mix that in a waythat it serves us in worshiping
Christ?
(21:10):
So scripture is always constant, doesn't change.
It's written.
But scripture has to engagewith the culture for it to be
relevant.
And so some people will takeonly the scripture and not make
it relevant to the culture.
And so that's where you findpeople.
Just they go to the far,they're so conservative and that
(21:35):
it doesn't connect with culture, neither does it connect with
the church tradition.
So it's how we mix all of thatwhere culture, scripture which
is given and the churchtradition all mix up very well.
So that's the example I'mtrying to give to you how it all
(21:58):
works out.
So with culture we always comewith our lenses, but how does
Christ?
How do we center that Christ?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Well, I'm afraid that maybe here I'm not completely
on the same page with you,because I think that this is the
direction that perhaps couldlead us away from the absolute
truth of the gospel does requirecultural sensitivity.
(22:36):
How we build relationship withpeople, how we do life together
with them, these are all areaswhere I believe cultural
sensitivity is absolutelynecessary.
Your example of a Muslimbeliever, a Muslim background
(22:56):
believer, accepting Christ andbeing cut off from their culture
you know this is all somethingthat we have run into in the
course of our work around theworld.
However, as far as the gospel,I think essentially, you know, a
heart that is seeking God atsome point has to rise above the
(23:18):
culture in pursuit of the truthof the gospel.
You know where you cannot.
Maybe I misunderstood whatyou're saying, but I don't think
we are to tailor the gospel tofit into the culture rather than
, at some point, the individualwho is seeking God has to rise
above their culture.
You know, to pursue the truth.
(23:38):
It's not the other way.
It's us pursuing God and histruth that is ultimately going
to help us.
I'll give you an example.
We have worked in Chinaextensively since 1999.
And one of the first peoplethat we met there, a Christian
that we met there, one of thefirst people that we met there,
a Christian that we met there.
(23:59):
She found God by reading theBible.
She had never been exposed tothe word of God, not even
culturally, you know, havinggrown up in the communist
country where obviously theBibles were not even available.
So somebody just gives her aBible.
She's seeking after God.
Somebody gave her a Biblebecause they knew that she was
seeking God and they knew thiswas the book about God.
(24:22):
So they just gave it to her asa gift and as she started
reading it she completelycouldn't understand anything
culturally, you know, becauseshe had no context, no
background to help her evenunderstand what this book is
talking about.
And so, but as she continued toread it and I'm just quoting
(24:42):
her words she said it's like thelight came, like a light bulb
came on in my mind and all of asudden I grasped the idea yes,
jesus Christ is the Son of God.
So she came to Christ throughreading the Word of God, without
any cultural context, andthat's how she became a
(25:03):
Christian.
And I think this is the exampleof how the Word of God works.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I think I agree with you.
I think we're saying the samething.
But it's just that when we cometo the scriptures, we come with
our own cultural lenses, and itis that cultural lenses that
interacts with the word of God.
That is static, it doesn'tchange, like the example that I
(25:31):
gave with the prodigal son.
Now we filter.
We filter things based on ourbackgrounds, our experiences,
what we know, because we arelimited by time and space.
I can only be in one place at atime and you know, I don't know
(25:55):
what's going on right now inAmerica.
So if I'm going to interpretanything, I come with that and
when I get to that, then theHoly Spirit will teach me.
So another person will likeit's just because that guy
squandered the money, butthere's so much past to that.
(26:20):
I think that's what I'm tryingto explain here.
But at the end of the day, thisChrist, the Bible, the Spirit
will change us, and that's whatI mean by the centrality of
Christ.
But before that happens, we comefrom our cultural spaces but
(26:43):
because of the dominance of aparticular culture globally,
we've always read the scripturesthrough their own lenses.
So what I'm saying now is nowtime to listen to other cultural
lenses and how they see theBible.
Because let's not forget thatthe Bible is written in a Middle
(27:07):
Eastern culture, for instance,the way we've misread the Bible
for many years.
A lot of the Bible text thatrefers to community.
We individualize it, you know,and so when we individualize a
particular text that was meantto be for a community, we miss
(27:31):
the original meaning of thattext.
It is our Father who art inheaven.
It's not just my Father, it'smy Father, but there's that
community.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So that's just what I'm trying to say with that
contextual and I think becauseso your book offers some
practical ways to assess andimprove the cross-cultural
intelligence, and we're almostout of time for our interview.
But what are some of the maybemost important ones, if you can
(28:09):
mention a couple of ways toassess and to improve?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, I think there are different stages.
I think the first stagebasically is to identify and
develop, because in culturalintelligence you've got four
capabilities.
The first one is motivation,where you identify interest,
intentionality, confidence andcompetence.
Then there's the awareness ofcultural awareness and fluency
(28:36):
cultural fluency the secondstage, where you begin to
understand the cultural valuesof the different cultures.
So to assess, we have a tool weuse for that, which is
self-assessment, culturalintelligence self-assessment.
There is a free one we're tryingto roll out for church, which
(28:56):
is a toolkit.
It's a kind of survey to helpchurches unpack and identify
those who would love to go onthe journey, those who feel
confident and competent to go onthe journey.
After that you've got the way,you now begin to learn the
different cultural values,whether it's low power distance
(29:19):
or high power distance.
By low power distance we meanthe leadership that works in
teams, like, for instance,within the Baptists it's very
low power where the churchcongregation is quite powerful
and the deacons, whereas withinsome Pentecostals in the
Catholic Church the priest isvery.
(29:41):
It's a kind of hierarchicalmodel, and so there are a lot of
different cultural values likethat that needs to be unpacked
and I think there's a bit of howyou actually now begin to
engage together in terms ofstrategy, actively engaging and
building relationships acrosscultures, and how you actually
(30:02):
act together.
So there's a lot ofself-assessment can help to do
that, and one that is taking.
There is a feedback reportpeople can actually see.
That will help them unpack andthey know where they are at in
that intercultural intelligencejourney.
It's something that can beimproved and I think before now
(30:27):
intelligence was only measuredwith IQ, but with time we
discovered that some people canhold PhDs or masters but they
can relate well with other humanbeings, and so business
discovered that, oh, they neededanother, we need another
intelligent, and that's howemotional intelligence came in
(30:50):
to relate across culture.
But as the world began to movein terms of migration technology
, in terms of migrationtechnology, we discovered that
you may be able to connect andrelate with people who are like
you, but when you meet peoplewho are not like you, from other
(31:11):
cultures, it can be difficult.
Some people are great with it,some are not, and that's the
emergence of culturalintelligence.
So those who have thatcapability to naturally just
cross cultures adapt and connectthat we tend to see they have a
higher cultural intelligenceand those who cannot.
(31:33):
They can improve it.
They can take theself-assessment and, as they get
the feedback report from that,through training, they know
where their weaknesses are,where their strengths are, and
then we usually coach them andteach them how they can improve
(31:54):
where their weaknesses are, forinstance, if drive or motivation
is where they're weak at.
In other words, they have somuch knowledge about the other
cultures but they don't have theinterest.
One way to correct thatbasically is if you find a
common hobby.
Let's say, if I'm African andthere's another English guy, we
(32:17):
both love pets.
Let's say dogs, for instance.
Around that, that could bringus together.
We both love pets.
Let's say dogs, for instance,around that.
That could bring us together.
We both love football.
That could create an interest.
So there are a lot of little.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
So that kind of leads to my final question.
You know, you're right.
There is this massive migrationthat is happening into
different countries UnitedKingdom and United States and so
many cultures that enter.
And maybe you know, for achurch or a ministry it's not
possible to learn in depth everyculture that is represented in
(32:53):
their congregation.
So is there a commondenominator that helps increase
overall that culturalintelligence when it is not
possible to in-depth understandevery culture that is
represented in the community?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
understanding that we're all created by God, and
God created one human race andone human with different futures
.
As I said before, he created usin his likeness.
(33:36):
If we get that theologycorrectly wrapped, the issue of
superiority, inferiority willnot come in, and so we can
easily connect, because we arenot created to compete with each
other or to complete each other.
(33:58):
So everything I've been sayingsums up that.
In other words, we are meant tocomplete each other.
So everything I've been sayingsums up that, in other words, we
are meant to complete eachother.
No one person, no one culture,no one subculture is complete on
its own.
We all need each other and it'sonly when we get that right,
because God created all of us inhis likeness and image, not
(34:21):
just this physical.
Sometimes, when we see that theonly physical is beyond the
physical, we are a spirit, beingthat lives in the body, that
has you know so, and God isspirit.
So if he created his likenessand image, it is when we come
together.
I think the common denominatorfor me is God in Christ.
(34:45):
There are other things I cantalk about, but I think once we
get that correctly, that willform a kind of a pool with
others.
Once we miss that, I think whathas happened over the years?
We recreate God in our ownimage and when cultures recreate
(35:08):
God in their own image, theyplay God.
So we've seen cultures playingGod to other cultures as if they
know everything.
But actually we all need eachother and it is in each other we
complete ourselves.
And that's where and I thinkthat's if you look at John's
(35:32):
revelations, where it's allgoing to end a new heaven and a
new earth where all nations, allpeoples, languages, all before
the throne in worship.
It is when we actually cometogether, that's when we all
connect.
And at the moment we have onemission go and make disciples.
(35:56):
We have one message love God,love your neighbors as you love
yourself.
Grace, shalom, redemption.
One audience for us to reachAll nations, one family, the
adopted family and destinationBefore the truth.
(36:17):
So I think that's the commonfor me, that's the common
denominator, and once we getthat, we will flourish, because
God will want us to flourish.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Well, I can definitely say amen to that.
Thank you so much for joiningand we will post a link to your
website for our listeners whowant to find out more
information or pick up your book, and thank you again for
joining.
Thank you, I agree with Asoba'sstatement that we are not
(36:52):
complete without each other.
I'm thankful that he brings thespotlight to cultural
intelligence as an importantcomponent in the success of the
Great Commission.
Dear listeners, I would love tohear your thoughts on this
subject and this conversation.
Feel free to post your commentson the platform you use to
(37:14):
listen to this podcast or sendme an email with your thoughts
to podcast at rfwmaorg.
If the Great Commission isclose to your heart and you're
looking for opportunities tofulfill it, I invite you to
visit our website, rfwmaorg, tolearn more about how you can get
(37:37):
involved.
Thank you for listening.
Until next time.
I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World
Missions Alliance.
We believe that changed liveschange lives.
If your life was transformed byChrist, you are equipped to
help others experience thistransformation.
Christ called his followers tomake disciples across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(38:07):
through short-term missions inover 32 countries across the
globe.
If you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving, check out our website,
rfwmaorg, and find out how toget involved.
Welcome to Limitless Spirit, a weekly podcast with
host Helen Todd, where sheinterviews guests about pursuing
spiritual growth, discoveringlife's purpose through serving
others and developing a deeperfaith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to another episode of Limitless Spirit.
Have you recently assessedyourself or your church for
cultural intelligence?
If you don't know what culturalintelligence is and you don't
know why it matters to you,today's episode is a great place
(00:36):
for you to learn.
According to World MigrationReport, in the year 2024, there
are 281 million people living incountries and cultures that are
not their own as internationalmigrants.
Immigration and its effect oncultures is a sore spot in
(00:58):
political debates, but how doesthe church equip itself to
navigate multiculturalcongregations and how do we
effectively share the gospelacross cultural barriers?
My guest today is Asoba Otaibe,and our conversation is the
proof that there are no simpleanswers to the many challenges
(01:22):
of cross-cultural ministry.
Answers to the many challengesof cross-cultural ministry
Osilva Otaibi wrote a bookcalled Building Cultural
Intelligence in Church andMinistry.
He is a Baptist minister whoworks for the Bible Society in
the United Kingdom and he isalso the host of Intercultural
Church and City TransformationGathering.
(01:44):
He brings a valuableperspective to the issue of
cultural intelligence.
However, as you will hear fromthe interview, while we agree on
the end goals, we do notnecessarily agree on all the
methods of overcoming thesechallenges.
Let's dive in.
Good morning, Asoba, or bettersay good afternoon in the United
(02:08):
Kingdom.
While it's morning here inMissouri, I think late afternoon
in the UK.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I'm good.
Good morning, Helen.
Great to meet you.
I'm really good.
It's been a lovely day heretoday.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Well, thank you for agreeing to do this interview.
I know you're very busy, but Ithink that the subject of our
conversation is very important,because cultural diversity is
shaping every aspect of societytoday.
So why do you think culturalintelligence is such a pressing
(02:45):
issue for churches andministries, and even Christians
in general?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, I think that's a very good question.
I mean three key things andchurch members.
As immigration, cross-culturalinteractions and even
technological advances makediverse communities more common
(03:11):
these days, leaders shouldunderstand and navigate cultural
differences to engageeffectively with members from
different backgrounds, whetheraddressing the unique needs of
refugees, integrating culturaltraditions into worship or
(03:32):
fostering unity across ethnic,generational or national divides
.
So cultural intelligenceenables leaders to build
inclusive, compassionateministry that appreciates
cultural diversity, but also tobuild trust and create welcoming
environments where people feelvalued and ultimately just
(03:55):
promoting unity in God's purpose.
But I think it's good to kindof explain what is cultural
intelligence.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I think it's good to and we're going to jump right
into this.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
But before we go there, I want to ask what are
the consequences that churchesor individuals face?
When you look at the Bible, theBible clearly speaks of the
idea and truth of a one God whocreated all human beings.
But also the Bible talks aboutone family adopted as a family
(04:42):
of God.
No Jews, no Gentiles, allfamily of God were adopted.
Then there's the one missionall called to the Great
Commission, go and makedisciples.
But also one message, themessage of love, grace,
redemption, shalom, love God,love your neighbor as you love
yourself.
Then there's the one spirit whoenables us one audience to all
(05:06):
nations.
Then there is also the finaldestination.
Revelation 7 talks about amultitude of people from all
nations, language, people beforethe throne worshiping, and I
think if we don't connect acrossculture, we lose the essence of
that oneness.
You know that one family, thatone mission.
(05:29):
We are adopted and we arecalled to love one another.
I think one key thing is it'seasy to love those who are like
us, but it's more challenging tolove those who are not like us.
But we are called to love alland to reach all nations.
We should be able to connectwith others.
(05:49):
And apart from that too, Ithink read the Bible.
Culture shapes the way we readand interpret the Bible.
In my book I did share a story.
In my book, building CulturalIntelligence in Church and
Mission, I tell a story of MarkPowell's research, finally,
(06:09):
regarding different culturalresponses to the parable of the
prodigal son, because culturedoes shape how we read and
interpret the Bible.
Many years ago he carried out aresearch among Christians in
three different nations UnitedStates, russia and Tanzania.
He shared the story of theprodigal son.
(06:30):
After sharing that story, thequestion was asked in the US why
did the prodigal son end up inthe pig pen, in the pig house?
And the majority view ofChristians in America was that
the prodigal son ended up in thepig house because he squandered
his money.
And when that same research wastaken to Russia, majority over
(06:55):
80% said because there wasfamine in the land.
The same research was taken toTanzania, close to 90% said
because no one helped him, noone invited him into the house.
Who is correct?
Why are there differences inthese responses?
But if you look at the story,they are all partially correct.
(07:18):
But each culture looked at thattext, that story, from their own
lenses, looked at that text,that story, from their own
lenses and I think if we couldcome together to study and to
read the Bible together and justhelp each other through
different lenses to read ittogether.
It can be quite helpful, forinstance, to the Americans,
(07:39):
where many people or few peoplecan be an individualist and
capitalist society.
They saw it as a personalresponsibility.
He squandered his money and sohe's responsible and so he ended
up with the pig pen.
And to the Russian, because ofthe history of devastating
famine, you know, drought in the20s, 30s.
(08:01):
They resonated with that andthey kind of saw nature as a
problem.
But to the Africans, theTanzanian, which is more of a
collectivist society, where youhave the spirit of Ubuntu I am
because we are and their lens oflooking at the story was if
(08:21):
somebody had taken him into thishouse he would end up in the
pit pit.
So culture, if we don'trecognize that, we can miss
quite a lot.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Thank you for bringing up this example,
because you literally answeredmy next question.
Why should we consider thesecultural differences?
If the gospel is the truth,doesn't the truth translate into
every culture?
But your illustration justanswered that question is, yes,
(08:52):
the truth does translate, buthow we present the truth has to
consider the cultural backgroundof our listeners.
So let's talk about you.
So what inspired you todedicate your work to
cross-cultural ministry and whatrole has your personal
(09:14):
background played in shapingyour perspective?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Thank you so much for that.
Anyway, the asset you heartoday Helene's 75% Nigerian.
I'm originally from Nigeria,but also there's about 5% of
East London, 5% of SouthwestLondon.
I'm still trying to figure outwhere the balance percentage is
from.
So I mean, my journey beganfrom the business world because
(09:39):
I started when I finisheduniversity.
I read business, admin andcomputer and went straight into
the oil and gas business wherewe did quite a lot of work with
the multinational companies andthere I started interacting with
people from different cultures,studied, came to London,
studied at the Spurgeons College, led two very diverse Baptist
(10:00):
churches in London for 15 years.
They were quite very diverse.
The first one we had majorityit was a majority of white
English congregation, and here Iwas an African, but I saw how
God really used my ministryamongst that.
Apart from that, I was also thechair of the London Baptist
(10:22):
Mission Strategy Forum for manyyears where during the Olympics
London Olympics 2012, wemobilized about 300 Baptist
churches to engage with theLondon Olympics, and there I saw
the beauty and the challengesof diversity in the city, and so
(10:44):
that's actually one of thethings that encouraged me to
write my book my church ministryduring leading the mission
strategy forum and that's when Iwrote the Building Cultural
Intelligence in Church andMinistry where I began to run
workshops.
Because I saw opportunities, Isaw challenges.
Because I saw opportunities, Isaw challenges and I also saw
(11:09):
that if the church engagedproperly together we can't
really reach all nations withinthe city as our cities get so
diverse.
And currently I mean I'mworking on a major project,
working for Bible Society GatherMovement, which is a movement
that mobilizes the church andcharities for city
(11:29):
transformation, and by citytransformation we mean spiritual
, social and culturaltransformation of our cities and
towns, christians engaging inthat.
So the project I'm engaged withis on reimagining mission in
the UK and one of the thingswe're currently doing is
(11:49):
intercultural church and citytransformation.
Just looking at two bigquestions what would an
intercultural church look likein our cities and towns?
What impact can we make if wework together across cultures
for Christ's sake?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So, considering this work that you're doing from your
perspective, what are the mostsignificant cultural challenges
churches and individuals facetoday, both locally and globally
?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Last year I went to seven cities.
I'll just give you somepractical examples.
I went to seven cities.
I'll just give you somepractical examples.
I went to seven cities justengaging with church leaders.
And after that engagement wemet in January this year in
Leeds.
Leeds is a city in the UK andwe were having this conversation
(12:41):
just looking at what are thechallenges.
And we had a roundtableconversation where we had over
150 church leaders just lookingat the opportunity and
challenges and I think the keythings that came out was, first
and foremost, lack of vision andlack of leadership support.
(13:02):
Without a vision for culturaldiversity, church unity can
really fault us.
And also there's the languagebarriers.
But there's also culturaldifferences.
Cultural differences extendbeyond visible aspects, like
just singing, dressing, toinclude invisible.
But there are also other, youknow, underlying cultural values
(13:27):
, communication styles,understanding and navigating
these changes.
They require patience andopen-mindedness.
But there's also the bit offear and ignorance.
Fear and ignorance can hindermeaningful interaction and
foster barriers.
However, intercultural churchescan offer opportunities for
(13:48):
learning and growth.
Apart from that, there's alsoprejudice and biases, which can
lead to discrimination andexclusion.
I think there are some peoplethat think that migration is a
big problem.
But if you look at the Godstory, migration is rooted in it
.
Look at Abraham, look at Moses,daniel, joseph, david, the
(14:13):
people of Israel, even Jesus.
There's always movement.
You know people moving from oneplace.
So it's not just a new thingthat people are moving and I
think as we continue to teachabout this so that people can
understand, it's becoming quitehelpful.
But unfortunately there aresome few people who will support
(14:36):
that far-right thinking in somechurches, but I must say
they're very, very small innumber.
But thank God that the responsewas very, very good from the
church even from the communitiesin most cities to actually
connect.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
So can you share examples of churches and
ministries that are successfullynavigating cross-cultural
barriers and what made theirefforts effective?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
As we are just now.
I think we're still on alearning curve.
I mean, from my own experience,we are all trying to learn
together in the UK and that'swhy the intercultural churches
movement is on.
There are churches that havestarted the journey.
There are a lot of challengeswith it, but I think what we're
finding is that the interest isquite high.
(15:25):
People are getting reallyintentional about it, people are
getting proactive, they'retrying to learn.
How do I do these things?
For instance, we had a massmovement of migration from Hong
Kong and then many from Iran,and before that we had from
(15:46):
Africa.
Even before Africa you had fromthe Caribbean, but I think now
churches are learning to reallyengage properly.
So there are a few churchesthat are doing it very well
across, like in the city where Iam, there's the Audacious
Church, which is a very diversechurch.
(16:07):
I think one of the key thingsthat many churches, the
challenges they face, is how dothey actually take this to the
leadership level?
Because when you talk aboutintercultural, it doesn't get to
the leadership level wherepeople can see themselves in
those spaces.
Sometimes it can be quitedifficult to sustain it.
(16:32):
Difficult to sustain it, forinstance, where decisions are
made.
If there's nobody within theleadership level that
understands the Chinese cultureor the Iranian culture, it can
be quite difficult.
Let's just assume, for instance, a Muslim becomes a Christian
(16:55):
and they join a church, thatchurch needs to know that once
you become a Christian, as aMuslim, you leave your family
and if it's an individualisticculture, as you will find in
some churches, that person isgoing to within a short time is
going to go back, because ifthey leave their own family and
(17:18):
they enter a church, they don'treally have people to call.
This is my family.
They're not going to be able tostay in there for that long,
because everybody needs a family, especially when they're coming
from a collectivist culturewhere it's more of community,
from a collectivist culturewhere it's more of community.
And so we're learning to talkto churches that as you go on
(17:40):
this journey, you need peoplefrom those cultures in those
leadership spaces to kind ofadvise you, to kind of go the
long haul on the journey withyou, and we're seeing churches
that are actually doing it now,sending their leaders for
training.
And one thing I've warned someof them about is don't just pick
(18:02):
anyone who's not ready yet,because if you pick someone from
a culture that is not ready andyou put them in leadership and
they mess up.
You set yourself back 10 yearsbecause you're not going to even
try to go there any longer.
So take your time, train andwith time you know it does work.
(18:22):
So in terms of worship,churches are learning to adapt.
You know, just bringingdifferent kind of songs from
other languages to sing together, that's going very well.
And other languages to singtogether, that's going very well
.
Within the intercultural churchand city transformation, we are
redefining what does goodintercultural theology look like
(18:44):
?
You know, before now there wasthe understanding that there is
the theology and then othertheologies are contextual.
But the truth is who says thatall theologies are not
contextual?
Big question now is how doesthe centrality of Christ, how
does Christ bring all thosedifferent contextual theologies
(19:07):
together?
So we're looking for how do weconstruct a theology that
centers Christ when we come withour lenses, because we do not
see things as they are.
We see as we are.
It's only God and Christ thatcan see the big picture, because
he's not limited by time andspace.
But you and I, I can only seefrom my own lenses, I can only
(19:32):
see from my background, from mymother, from my teacher, from
all the places, spaces I've been, I won't be able to see from
another person's lenses.
So, and I think that's why,once we come under that big
umbrella centrality of Christbringing our own cultures and
lenses Christ can cleanse thatand we can choose that to his
(19:56):
glory.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Can you give me an example of contextual theologies
?
I guess I'm not fully followingyou by contextual theology.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
for instance, there was a term you know, when you
say there's a theology that isgeneral, you have Black theology
.
There are some people that sayblack theology, prosperity
theology, you have femininetheology and all racial justice.
(20:26):
You know reconciliationtheology, and then you have the
theology which is a kind of anumbrella, but what I was trying
to say there is even thetheology which is a kind of an
umbrella, but what I was tryingto say there is even the
theology which is the generalone that we've studied before.
It's in itself contextual,because those that constructed
(20:50):
it were from a particularculture.
And so what does theology mean?
We're looking at how do wescripture, tradition and culture
?
How do you mix that in a waythat it serves us in worshiping
Christ?
(21:10):
So scripture is always constant, doesn't change.
It's written.
But scripture has to engagewith the culture for it to be
relevant.
And so some people will takeonly the scripture and not make
it relevant to the culture.
And so that's where you findpeople.
Just they go to the far,they're so conservative and that
(21:35):
it doesn't connect with culture, neither does it connect with
the church tradition.
So it's how we mix all of thatwhere culture, scripture which
is given and the churchtradition all mix up very well.
So that's the example I'mtrying to give to you how it all
(21:58):
works out.
So with culture we always comewith our lenses, but how does
Christ?
How do we center that Christ?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Well, I'm afraid that maybe here I'm not completely
on the same page with you,because I think that this is the
direction that perhaps couldlead us away from the absolute
truth of the gospel does requirecultural sensitivity.
(22:36):
How we build relationship withpeople, how we do life together
with them, these are all areaswhere I believe cultural
sensitivity is absolutelynecessary.
Your example of a Muslimbeliever, a Muslim background
(22:56):
believer, accepting Christ andbeing cut off from their culture
you know this is all somethingthat we have run into in the
course of our work around theworld.
However, as far as the gospel,I think essentially, you know, a
heart that is seeking God atsome point has to rise above the
(23:18):
culture in pursuit of the truthof the gospel.
You know where you cannot.
Maybe I misunderstood whatyou're saying, but I don't think
we are to tailor the gospel tofit into the culture rather than
, at some point, the individualwho is seeking God has to rise
above their culture.
You know, to pursue the truth.
(23:38):
It's not the other way.
It's us pursuing God and histruth that is ultimately going
to help us.
I'll give you an example.
We have worked in Chinaextensively since 1999.
And one of the first peoplethat we met there, a Christian
that we met there, one of thefirst people that we met there,
a Christian that we met there.
(23:59):
She found God by reading theBible.
She had never been exposed tothe word of God, not even
culturally, you know, havinggrown up in the communist
country where obviously theBibles were not even available.
So somebody just gives her aBible.
She's seeking after God.
Somebody gave her a Biblebecause they knew that she was
seeking God and they knew thiswas the book about God.
(24:22):
So they just gave it to her asa gift and as she started
reading it she completelycouldn't understand anything
culturally, you know, becauseshe had no context, no
background to help her evenunderstand what this book is
talking about.
And so, but as she continued toread it and I'm just quoting
(24:42):
her words she said it's like thelight came, like a light bulb
came on in my mind and all of asudden I grasped the idea yes,
jesus Christ is the Son of God.
So she came to Christ throughreading the Word of God, without
any cultural context, andthat's how she became a
(25:03):
Christian.
And I think this is the exampleof how the Word of God works.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I think I agree with you.
I think we're saying the samething.
But it's just that when we cometo the scriptures, we come with
our own cultural lenses, and itis that cultural lenses that
interacts with the word of God.
That is static, it doesn'tchange, like the example that I
(25:31):
gave with the prodigal son.
Now we filter.
We filter things based on ourbackgrounds, our experiences,
what we know, because we arelimited by time and space.
I can only be in one place at atime and you know, I don't know
(25:55):
what's going on right now inAmerica.
So if I'm going to interpretanything, I come with that and
when I get to that, then theHoly Spirit will teach me.
So another person will likeit's just because that guy
squandered the money, butthere's so much past to that.
(26:20):
I think that's what I'm tryingto explain here.
But at the end of the day, thisChrist, the Bible, the Spirit
will change us, and that's whatI mean by the centrality of
Christ.
But before that happens, we comefrom our cultural spaces but
(26:43):
because of the dominance of aparticular culture globally,
we've always read the scripturesthrough their own lenses.
So what I'm saying now is nowtime to listen to other cultural
lenses and how they see theBible.
Because let's not forget thatthe Bible is written in a Middle
(27:07):
Eastern culture, for instance,the way we've misread the Bible
for many years.
A lot of the Bible text thatrefers to community.
We individualize it, you know,and so when we individualize a
particular text that was meantto be for a community, we miss
(27:31):
the original meaning of thattext.
It is our Father who art inheaven.
It's not just my Father, it'smy Father, but there's that
community.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So that's just what I'm trying to say with that
contextual and I think becauseso your book offers some
practical ways to assess andimprove the cross-cultural
intelligence, and we're almostout of time for our interview.
But what are some of the maybemost important ones, if you can
(28:09):
mention a couple of ways toassess and to improve?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, I think there are different stages.
I think the first stagebasically is to identify and
develop, because in culturalintelligence you've got four
capabilities.
The first one is motivation,where you identify interest,
intentionality, confidence andcompetence.
Then there's the awareness ofcultural awareness and fluency
(28:36):
cultural fluency the secondstage, where you begin to
understand the cultural valuesof the different cultures.
So to assess, we have a tool weuse for that, which is
self-assessment, culturalintelligence self-assessment.
There is a free one we're tryingto roll out for church, which
(28:56):
is a toolkit.
It's a kind of survey to helpchurches unpack and identify
those who would love to go onthe journey, those who feel
confident and competent to go onthe journey.
After that you've got the way,you now begin to learn the
different cultural values,whether it's low power distance
(29:19):
or high power distance.
By low power distance we meanthe leadership that works in
teams, like, for instance,within the Baptists it's very
low power where the churchcongregation is quite powerful
and the deacons, whereas withinsome Pentecostals in the
Catholic Church the priest isvery.
(29:41):
It's a kind of hierarchicalmodel, and so there are a lot of
different cultural values likethat that needs to be unpacked
and I think there's a bit of howyou actually now begin to
engage together in terms ofstrategy, actively engaging and
building relationships acrosscultures, and how you actually
(30:02):
act together.
So there's a lot ofself-assessment can help to do
that, and one that is taking.
There is a feedback reportpeople can actually see.
That will help them unpack andthey know where they are at in
that intercultural intelligencejourney.
It's something that can beimproved and I think before now
(30:27):
intelligence was only measuredwith IQ, but with time we
discovered that some people canhold PhDs or masters but they
can relate well with other humanbeings, and so business
discovered that, oh, they neededanother, we need another
intelligent, and that's howemotional intelligence came in
(30:50):
to relate across culture.
But as the world began to movein terms of migration technology
, in terms of migrationtechnology, we discovered that
you may be able to connect andrelate with people who are like
you, but when you meet peoplewho are not like you, from other
(31:11):
cultures, it can be difficult.
Some people are great with it,some are not, and that's the
emergence of culturalintelligence.
So those who have thatcapability to naturally just
cross cultures adapt and connectthat we tend to see they have a
higher cultural intelligenceand those who cannot.
(31:33):
They can improve it.
They can take theself-assessment and, as they get
the feedback report from that,through training, they know
where their weaknesses are,where their strengths are, and
then we usually coach them andteach them how they can improve
(31:54):
where their weaknesses are, forinstance, if drive or motivation
is where they're weak at.
In other words, they have somuch knowledge about the other
cultures but they don't have theinterest.
One way to correct thatbasically is if you find a
common hobby.
Let's say, if I'm African andthere's another English guy, we
(32:17):
both love pets.
Let's say dogs, for instance.
Around that, that could bringus together.
We both love pets.
Let's say dogs, for instance,around that.
That could bring us together.
We both love football.
That could create an interest.
So there are a lot of little.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
So that kind of leads to my final question.
You know, you're right.
There is this massive migrationthat is happening into
different countries UnitedKingdom and United States and so
many cultures that enter.
And maybe you know, for achurch or a ministry it's not
possible to learn in depth everyculture that is represented in
(32:53):
their congregation.
So is there a commondenominator that helps increase
overall that culturalintelligence when it is not
possible to in-depth understandevery culture that is
represented in the community?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
understanding that we're all created by God, and
God created one human race andone human with different futures
.
As I said before, he created usin his likeness.
(33:36):
If we get that theologycorrectly wrapped, the issue of
superiority, inferiority willnot come in, and so we can
easily connect, because we arenot created to compete with each
other or to complete each other.
(33:58):
So everything I've been sayingsums up that.
In other words, we are meant tocomplete each other.
So everything I've been sayingsums up that, in other words, we
are meant to complete eachother.
No one person, no one culture,no one subculture is complete on
its own.
We all need each other and it'sonly when we get that right,
because God created all of us inhis likeness and image, not
(34:21):
just this physical.
Sometimes, when we see that theonly physical is beyond the
physical, we are a spirit, beingthat lives in the body, that
has you know so, and God isspirit.
So if he created his likenessand image, it is when we come
together.
I think the common denominatorfor me is God in Christ.
(34:45):
There are other things I cantalk about, but I think once we
get that correctly, that willform a kind of a pool with
others.
Once we miss that, I think whathas happened over the years?
We recreate God in our ownimage and when cultures recreate
(35:08):
God in their own image, theyplay God.
So we've seen cultures playingGod to other cultures as if they
know everything.
But actually we all need eachother and it is in each other we
complete ourselves.
And that's where and I thinkthat's if you look at John's
(35:32):
revelations, where it's allgoing to end a new heaven and a
new earth where all nations, allpeoples, languages, all before
the throne in worship.
It is when we actually cometogether, that's when we all
connect.
And at the moment we have onemission go and make disciples.
(35:56):
We have one message love God,love your neighbors as you love
yourself.
Grace, shalom, redemption.
One audience for us to reachAll nations, one family, the
adopted family and destinationBefore the truth.
(36:17):
So I think that's the commonfor me, that's the common
denominator, and once we getthat, we will flourish, because
God will want us to flourish.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Well, I can definitely say amen to that.
Thank you so much for joiningand we will post a link to your
website for our listeners whowant to find out more
information or pick up your book, and thank you again for
joining.
Thank you, I agree with Asoba'sstatement that we are not
(36:52):
complete without each other.
I'm thankful that he brings thespotlight to cultural
intelligence as an importantcomponent in the success of the
Great Commission.
Dear listeners, I would love tohear your thoughts on this
subject and this conversation.
Feel free to post your commentson the platform you use to
(37:14):
listen to this podcast or sendme an email with your thoughts
to podcast at rfwmaorg.
If the Great Commission isclose to your heart and you're
looking for opportunities tofulfill it, I invite you to
visit our website, rfwmaorg, tolearn more about how you can get
(37:37):
involved.
Thank you for listening.
Until next time.
I'm Helen Todd.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World
Missions Alliance.
We believe that changed liveschange lives.
If your life was transformed byChrist, you are equipped to
help others experience thistransformation.
Christ called his followers tomake disciples across the world.
World Missions Alliance givesyou an opportunity to do this
(38:07):
through short-term missions inover 32 countries across the
globe.
If you want to help those whoare hurting and hopeless and
discover your greater purpose inserving, check out our website,
rfwmaorg, and find out how toget involved.
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