March 13, 2024 • 43 mins
Dr. Kate Balestrieri walks us through Female Led Relationships and what they look like inside and outside of the bedroom. She clearly outlines the 4 levels of Female Led Relationships , reveals how they benefit both men and women and offer couples the opportunity to connect on a deeper level than conventional relationships might allow.
If you and your partner are struggling to create or maintain a deeply connected and mutually satisfying relationship, a Female Led Relationship might be right for you.
In this episode you’ll discover the following:
- Where Female Led Relationships originated
- The definition of FLR
- Misconceptions
- The four levels of FLRs
- Benefits for men
- Benefits for women
- How to get started
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, this is Annette Vinedetti, your hostess for a
locker room talk and chocks, thepodcast that likes to think of
itself as the queer NPR ofraunchy women's sex talk.
You are about to sit in on thekind of conversations women have
on their girls' nights out orbehind closed doors, while
enjoying delicious drinks anddishing about sex, think, fun,
(00:26):
honest and feminist as fuck, andalways with a goal of fighting
the patriarchy, one orgasm at atime.
Welcome to the locker room.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Today's locker room talk and chots topic is what is
a female-led relationship?
Now, I have gotten a lot ofrequests for this topic.
I assume you all came to mewith a question what is a
female-led relationship?
Because you have happened uponmy content on dominating your
dude male chastity.
As it turns out, I didn't knowmuch of anything about
(01:06):
female-led relationships, whichare, I think, much more
encompassing than the thingsI've talked about.
But luckily for us, I have anexpert here today who is going
to walk us through what afemale-led relationship is, what
it looks like, how you can doit if you want to, what the
benefits are, and I've actuallyhad her on my podcast before.
(01:27):
We did a episode on sexualassault awareness month and it
was fantastic.
So I am excited to have KateBallastriere back.
She is a licensedpsychologist-certified sex
therapist and founder of ModernIntimacy, a national therapy
practice.
She is the host of Get Nakedwith Dr Kate and you can find
(01:50):
her on Instagram and TikTok.
Kate, will you take some timeto just tell my listeners a
little bit more about you Of?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
course, of course, and thank you so much for having
me back on your show.
I really love talking with youand I'm so excited to dive into
this topic today.
But, as you said, I'm Dr KateBallastriere, a licensed
psychologist, certified sextherapist and the founder of
Modern Intimacy.
I've been in this work now foralmost 20 years, surprisingly
(02:19):
which is really kind of throwingme for a loop if I'm being
honest but I would say my work.
I started in this field doingmore forensic work than clinical
, and I used to do evaluationsand treatment for sexually
violent persons who wereincarcerated, and since then my
career path has stayed along theintersection of mental health
(02:41):
and sexuality, but I definitelyspend a lot of time now focusing
on sexuality, gender and power.
So you know, the topic offemale-led relationships is a
really, really fascinating onethat touches on all three of
those sort of connecting domains.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Well, I'm excited to find out more about it and to
share it with my listeners.
So let's just dive right in,because I got tons of questions,
cheers.
Let's talk about women takingthe lead.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hi, I'm a big fan.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I am too.
I am too.
So from my brief research, whatI did find is it sounds like
female-led relationships did.
Actually, the idea was born outof the kink community.
That's what one of the articlesI read said.
You can correct me if that'swrong.
So I'm curious about theorigins of the female-led
(03:37):
relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think that it very well couldhave originated in the kink
community, based on when wedecided, sort of collectively,
that there was consciousnessaround what was happening.
But my guess is that throughoutthe course of human history
there have been somerelationships, some heterosexual
(04:01):
relationships, that have maybetaken a more organic lean in
this direction, but maybe therewasn't much of a name for it,
and certainly within apatriarchal culture.
Right, kink?
Well, kink in general is aboutcreating room for subversive
experiences and anything that'soutside of the norm.
So it may have consciously beenborn in the kink community and
(04:26):
now lives as something that weunderstand to be, you know,
something that's well, somethingthat's more kinky than not.
But a female-led relationshipdoes not have to include any
kind of kink or BESM.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Right.
So then that brings us to theactual definition of female-led
relationship.
It is between heterosexualfolks only, correct, I mean?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
that's the commonly understood definition.
There may be some same-sexfolks who play around with this
language, depending on you knowwhat language feels right for
them, and today maybe let's saywe'll talk about it within the
context of the heterosexualcommunity.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Okay, and what is the definition of it?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Well, a female-led relationship is really where the
female partner maintains morepower, more authority, more of
the decision-making than themale partner, and typically in a
heterosexual relationship, weare conditioned to understand
that men have more power.
So this definitely wouldrepresent a shift.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
So is this in all areas of the life.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It can be, but it can be limited to specific areas of
their relationship.
It might be around things likehousehold chores or the money,
or it might be just specific tosex.
It can be around parenting orthings like that.
It might be in social events.
So there are different degreesof intensity when it comes to
(06:02):
female relationships, and kindof at the lower end of intensity
the relationship probably looksmore egalitarian, but the
female partner might have likehigh-breaking authority in the
relationship, for example, andthen it sort of gets more and
more intense throughout the fourdifferent stages.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right, so we are going to go over there.
I understand you said stages,levels, levels, maybe Something
like that, but I guess before wejump into that right off the
bat, I know when people hear thetitle of this podcast and jump
into it, there are going to besome misconceptions that maybe
spring up around that andpeople's feelings about it.
(06:49):
Are there any off the top ofyour head that you can just be
like?
Here are the things thatabsolutely is not, that people
might make assumptions about.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It's really hard to answer that question because
every set of partners mightdefine this differently, so I
would be remiss to say it isthis or it isn't that.
But one thing that I'll say isthat it does not involve
exploitation or abuse right,especially when we're looking at
(07:18):
a female-led relationshiptaking place within a kinky
context.
All of this is consensual andit's mutually agreed upon and
beneficial for both partnersinvolved.
Now, a lot of times I hear apretty bifurcated response from
men.
Some men will say things likewell, that sounds amazing.
(07:41):
I'd love to let my partner leadand take a back seat and have
her sort of be the defaultperson for decisions and whatnot
.
And then there are other men whoget really, really angry and
really upset at this idea andwill say things like well, any
man who wants that must beemasculated.
But PS, you can't actuallyemasculate someone.
(08:04):
That's not a thing.
You cannot remove someone'smasculinity from them.
But I think there's a lot ofconfusion around what this looks
like, and part of why there isand why it can be a very
polarizing subject is because wedo so intrinsically over-couple
(08:24):
power and gender unconsciouslyin our culture, sometimes
consciously, but most of thetime unconsciously and that
plays a big role in our identity.
So if something is beingpresented to us that questions
our sense of safety in our ownidentity or our own role in our
relationship, we might workreally hard to discredit it as
being healthy for other people.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Right, well, let's dive into the different levels
of a female-led relationship,and then I will want us to
address the benefits for eachperson.
But maybe giving sort of peoplea view of what this looks like
first would be helpful.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Sure.
So I would say the differentlevels.
There are typically like fourlevels of control.
I know I said stages before,but it's not a stage model
necessarily, in that it may notbe, you know, graduating from
one stage to another, but thefirst level is low control and
essentially I mean this, as Isaid earlier, sort of looks like
(09:26):
a lot of shared values, a lotof shared decision-making power
and authority.
But the female partner might bethe person that both partners
default to around some areas inthe relationship.
I think we might see this asbeing something that is more
progressive, but both partnersare a part of the
(09:48):
decision-making process, even ifshe takes the lead sometimes,
and that could look like havingdeal-breaker authority, or it
could look like being the personto come up with the options
about what's going to happen orwhat the couple can entertain
together.
So it's, you know, for the mostpart it looks like a pretty
(10:08):
equal relationship.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Is this something that people, a couple,
consciously decides on, likethey're like, hey, I want to
have a female-led relationship,or is it more organic?
It's both right.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Every couple that participates in this gets there
in their own journey.
So for many folks it'scompletely unintentional and
unconscious and it just sort offollows their rhythm organically
.
But for other people it is moreconscious and intentional,
especially if this is a kinkthat's being explored by
partners.
You know in that instance theywould be a lot more explicit
(10:44):
around what's interesting andexciting and what they both need
from that dynamic and theywould set agreements around it
and renegotiate from time totime.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
What is our second stage or level?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, so moderate control, and in this sort of
moderate control level there's alittle bit more intensity in
the kind of power that thefemale partner holds.
So here she most likely willhave the final say in most of
the decisions that are made.
She may take into considerationher partner's feedback, but
(11:21):
there definitely is more of apower dynamic here.
This does not have to be kinkyplay, but it can be, and so the
power plays might be a lot moreintentional.
If they are exploring kink, itmight look more like the male
partner being in service of oror worshiping her and giving her
(11:44):
all the power, and she may notreally enjoy punishing so much,
but she really indulge infeeling like she is sort of on
the pedestal, if you will, interms of who has the control,
who has the power and who'sbeing adored in that process.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Okay, and then how would that look outside of a
kinky?
Could you give me an example injust day-to-day life how that
might look?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, well, it might look like a male partner being a
little bit more passive.
We typically think aboutmasculine and feminine as active
and passive, so it might looklike a female partner who is
more active in her energy, moreof like a go-getter, more of a
no-nonsense kind of person.
(12:34):
I like to think about the womenin female-led relationships who
are in this level of control.
They very often are eldestdaughters or they have
high-powered work environments,so they're used to being in
charge of things.
They're used to being theperson who heads up the group
(12:55):
project at school and gets shitdone.
So she's coming as a powerhouseand he might be like that's
awesome for me, I don't have todo anything, she's taking the
lead.
I love that about her.
She's awesome, she's apowerhouse.
I respect her so much.
It's just really like it's arelief for both of them that
(13:16):
they are in those differentroles.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Interesting.
And then the third level.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, so the third level is a more defined control.
So where the first two can bemore organic, this third level
of control is definitely morespecific.
So in these female-ledrelationships, each partner is
coming to that with a little bitmore intentionality around how
(13:47):
the female partner will exerciseher power and authority and how
she will not.
Both partners are reallyexplicit and they make an
agreement here.
So this can sometimes be calledlike a formal control
relationship.
It doesn't have to be calledthat, but it is a lot more.
(14:08):
I'll call you the wordregulated in the sense that it's
regulated by both of them andthey have a map for what's going
to happen and who's going to dowhat when.
So this third level of controlis typically where there are
more intentional aspects of kingplay and specifically BDSM.
(14:29):
So sometimes that can look likebondage or chastity or orgasm
control or humiliation aspectsof their sex play.
You know, whatever feelspowerful for her and creates for
him a position of morepassivity or devotion.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So does that also feed into the day-to-day life it
?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
can.
Yeah, it can.
Again, it's specific, so youknow it might come in the form
of like she might make all thedecisions about money, she might
get his money from his job andcontrol everything that happens
with it.
She may give him an allowance.
(15:18):
She may say to him no, youcan't go on that vacation, you
have to stay home and do this,this or this for me or with me
or to me, so it can be really,of course.
Again, it's exciting, it's notexploitative.
They're both willing andinterested and enjoying it, but
(15:38):
it can definitely extend intoother parts of their
relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Okay, and then I'm like what is the fourth level?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
So the last level, the fourth level, is definitely
the most intense and a lot ofpeople sort of think about this
as like a 24-7 lifestyle exampleof BDSM.
It's very likely that there isan active level of Canc or BDSM
that is happening here.
So in this example or thislevel, they might kind of have
(16:15):
these more formalized positionsin their relationship where he
is a pet or a servant or somekind of facilitator of her
desires, her pleasure, and shemay enjoy more humiliation or
pain exchange, but ultimatelyshe has the control over what's
(16:38):
happening in their lives 24-7.
Now a lot of people when theyhear about a 24-7 lifestyle kink
, they start getting reallynervous about how that can be
okay and what about if itdoesn't work for somebody
anymore.
So it's really important tonote that even for couples who
participate in a 24-7 lifestylekink, they do have safe words,
(16:59):
safe gestures and periodiccheck-ins so that they can
reevaluate does this still workfor us or do we need to make
adjustments to what's going on?
So either partner can tap outand they can say, okay, we're
going to put that back on holdand now it's egalitarian again,
we're going to figure out ournew agreements together, right?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
So I was going to ask about safe words, and so in all
of the different stages andlevels, there are safe words,
yes, or gestures, or whatever.
Tap out options.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah Right, because this is consensual.
Everybody is benefiting from it, no matter what level of
control they're participating in.
They are benefiting, it'smutually appreciated and if
something needs to change, theycan always address that with
their partner and make theadjustments, and that's what
makes it a non-exploitativedynamic.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
All right, so can we talk about?
Let's just start with the manin this situation, Typically.
What are the benefits to him?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Well, I think a lot of men really feel a tremendous
amount of pressure inrelationship to be the authority
, and not every man wants to bethe decision maker all the time.
He might feel exhausted abouthaving to be the head of
household, especially if he grewup with a lot of
responsibilities for taking careof younger siblings or taking
(18:27):
care of a parent whose emotionalneeds were larger than maybe he
was ready to navigate or shouldhave had to navigate growing up
.
So for a lot of men it givesthem permission to be more in
the receiving role in arelationship and not have to
perform to these really highlevels of masculinity High is
(18:50):
maybe even a dangerous wordthese really rigid examples of
masculinity where they have tobe the person who, sort of like,
provides, protects and makesdecisions.
It's subversive, right.
They get to be defiant in a wayto that expectation and that
can feel really reallyliberating and really great for
(19:12):
a lot of men.
They often feel reallyprotected in their vulnerability
when they're with a partner whoreally holds space for them to
be safely vulnerable.
So it allows them to be intouch with a lot of different
parts of themselves thatotherwise they might not give
themselves permission to haveaccess to.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
That's an interesting thought that I mean.
One of the aspects of toxicmasculinity that we talk about a
lot is the fact that boys aretaught that men aren't emotional
and, essentially, are raised tonot have access to their
(19:52):
feelings.
I do not know how many men Ihave dated in my life who
literally couldn't accessemotions and it was so damaging
to them, damaging to me, totheir kids, to the relationship
and the ability to havesomething, to have something
(20:13):
really in a connection.
If you can't access yourfeelings, how are you going to
have like a fulfillingconnection that feels safe and
secure?
So it would make sense to methat when they get to step away
from that sort of archetype thathas been created as this is man
(20:37):
, that then they can maybe havethe space to access their
feelings and feel secure andsupported and like it's not
scary.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I recently saw a clip of Esther Perel talking about
masculinity and she sayssomething really astute.
She said in a patriarchy, mencan be powerful or they can be
connected, but they can't beboth, and so I think this gives
men the ability to stay in aplace of connection, because
(21:13):
they don't have to contend withthe identity conflict that comes
with being vulnerable, ie notmasculine enough to stay
connected.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
So in these relationships and we'll get to
the benefits for the woman, butdo the people in these people's
lives know?
I mean, is this an sort of openout of the closet kind of
relationship, or is it usuallymore behind closed doors?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Either or or both.
I mean it again it reallydepends on the partners, and
that's the beauty of of kink ingeneral right there's no right.
There's no one right recipe.
So if partners choose toexperience this and share this
with each other behind closeddoors, that's okay.
If they have some people intheir lives that they share it
(22:07):
with, okay, great.
If they share it with everyoneand they're completely
transparent about it to theworld, great, good for them.
It's not right or wrong, goodor bad.
It just has to make sense forthose partners.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
So let's talk about women and what the major benefit
to the woman in therelationship is.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah Well, I mean as a shock to no one.
Most women growing up in apatriarchy feel really oppressed
in their power sometimes, andespecially in heterosexual
dating relationships.
A lot of women have had theexperience of having to stay
small, not being able to reallystand in their true power, for
(22:51):
fear of the consequences of thatright For women.
A lot of the time when theyreally stand true in their own
power and sort of like square upin their authenticity, if you
will, they face a lot of bigrejections because women are not
supposed to embody their fullvoice or embody their full
strength or their full power andauthority in this world.
(23:12):
So a lot of women who enjoythis space have probably felt a
lot of that and they're like, no, I get to be big, I get to be
the person in control, I get tobe the person who is in charge
and makes decisions.
And for a lot of women that canfeel a lot safer than being in
this position of having tocapitulate to a man in power.
(23:37):
So I think it gives them justsuch a beautiful access point to
a truth inside of themselvesthat they can step into fully
and then, if they're not in a 24seven dynamic.
They can pull back from when itfeels right.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
So that's interesting as well.
I identify with, like I have ayou know, a pretty big dominant
personality and for me it hasfelt like a choice.
My life is a choice of,interestingly enough, either
being able to be kind of thatbig person, step into my power,
(24:20):
or be connected.
Like I feel like I can't havelike a truly fulfilling intimate
relationship when I'm insistingon standing in my power, but it
sounds like this kind ofrelationship actually would give
a woman the ability to do thatWe'll also maintaining a
(24:41):
connection with someone who youknow now can be open and
emotional right and appreciateswhat she is bringing to the
table.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I mean I think there are a lot of pros for women in
that sense, right, and just likethere are pros for men in these
, in these dynamics.
And, on the one hand, becauseof the way we're socialized
around gender and power, for alot of men this, this female lad
relationship, is the firstplace where they can really
fully practice the vulnerabilityof worshiping another human,
(25:14):
worshiping a woman, beinghumiliated, being ashamed, in a
safe, contained space.
Those are vulnerable feelingsthat a lot of men are never
really permitted to expresswithout fear of, you know, sort
of losing their man card quoteto, to paraphrase.
And so this dynamic, you know,gives men and women a safer
(25:39):
place to play around with thesedynamics so that they can be in
their full power or in theirfull connection and still stay
connected and stay safe, right,like the relationship isn't
going to deteriorate if I am bigand strong in my power, if I
allow myself to be worshiped andserved and, to you know, be
revered in that way, so it canbe a really healing practice for
(26:01):
couples.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, it's interesting.
It almost sounds like it is oneof the ways I feel, like I hear
a lot of dissatisfaction inrelationships around security,
you know, and it sounds likethis is an opportunity to
experience that by doing theopposite of what we've been told
(26:27):
our roles are as a man and awoman and what our roles are
supposed to be in a relationship.
What are some of the biggestchallenges a couple is going to
face?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Just like the benefits are unique to each
partner, so are the theconsequences or the negative
aspects of it.
But one of the things that Ihear from women a lot is that
they get tired.
You know, women typically aredoing more of the emotional
labor in our world, and sosometimes if a female led
(27:01):
relationship is is besieged withtwo partners and she's doing
more of the emotional labor andshe doesn't have other outlets
to receive in other ways, or ifthey don't take enough breaks
for her to be out of that role,it can start to feel like a job
right.
I hear this from a lot ofdominatrices too.
(27:21):
It's like they enjoy the power,but it's also a lot of work to
like, hold space and curate anexperience for someone else, so
it can sometimes feel exhaustingand she may at some point want
to step out of that role and beattended to in ways that don't
require her to all to do all thethinking and all the decision
(27:42):
making.
For men, it can feel reallywonderful to give up all of that
power, but after a while, ifthey're not being honest with
themselves or with their partner, they can start to feel
disempowered or like they areresentful of what's going on
with their partner, especiallyif she's not making as much time
(28:03):
for him as he might want and heis maybe sort of staying in a
place of devotion, but also thatmight keep him a little bit
more isolated.
So it's all about balancebetween the two of them, and
it's important that partners arechecking in with each other
regularly to make sure that thebalance works for them both,
(28:26):
because things change in ourlives too, and that can make it
difficult to have the sameenthusiasm for these roles.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Right, right, what would you say for people who are
listening to this right now andthey're like I think that's
kind of what we're doing, orthey've looked into it and
they're like I'm interested inembarking on doing this.
What are some steps people cantake?
(28:56):
First, to bring up theconversation with their partner,
especially, let's say, if it'sa woman who's gonna bring this
up to her dude.
And then maybe some quick tipson, like a quick start package,
if you will, to giving it a shot.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, well, I would say, if you're curious about
this and you don't know enoughabout it, maybe the first step
is to get more education and youcan do that on your own before
you talk to your partner.
Or you can talk to your partnerand say, hey, I was listening
to this podcast and they talkedabout something that was so
interesting.
Have you ever heard about thisand are you curious about it?
(29:35):
Do you wanna explore thistogether?
Cause it's kind of my interestis peaked right and you can
definitely embark on thattogether, and there are a lot of
blogs out there that do talkabout female doms or female,
which is different but sometimesoverlapping with a female-led
relationship.
(29:57):
But start to explore, like yourideas about gender and power and
what areas do either or both ofyou wanna flip the script, what
would feel interesting to youand take your time to outline
some places that you can start.
It's okay to start small, maybegiving over one decision,
making peace of yourrelationship, see how it goes
(30:21):
and engage in regular check-ins.
If this is a kinky dynamic andBDSM is a part of the female-led
relationship, it is reallyimportant to practice the
aftercare and debriefing thatcan help you both come back to
your relationship roles, yourhuman roles, but also just to
(30:43):
continue reinforcing safety andthe practice of communicating
what worked about this and whatdidn't.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Right, so you don't have to hard launch in and like
hand over everything at once.
I mean listening to thisbecause I'm really learning
about it for the first time here.
I'm like I could see howaspects of this would have been
really good for me when I'm notcurrently in a relationship, but
in retrospect.
(31:11):
What has stood out to me themost, though, kate is.
I don't think especially.
I'm openly bisexual and datepeople of all genders, but when
I have been in moreheteronormative looking
relationships, something that Iam thinking now has been really
(31:31):
harmful is that I think there isan inherent expectation of the
role the guy is gonna take andthe role I'm going to take, but
I have never sat down with apartner and said, hey, how about
we talk about who's?
going to lead what you know.
I mean, I've talked about itand you know I've had kinky
(31:54):
partnerships where we've playedwith a domination and BDSM, but
I never used the same tools inour day to day life.
And as we're talking about thisand you're listing the pros and
cons, I'm like wow, that wouldhave been super helpful in my
(32:14):
relationships with men, becauseassumptions are made.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Totally, totally.
I mean that's the thing aboutliving in a heteronormative
culture.
It's literally conditioned intous since before we're born who
we're going to be and how weshould act, based on the
genitals that we're born withand the constructive gender that
as a culture, we've sort of.
I don't want to say we'veagreed to it, but that's been
(32:41):
the script we've been given.
So this is a far less consciousdynamic the gender and power
for folks who are heterosexualor who are in heterosexual
peering or presentingrelationships.
It does evoke a lot of justbiases and unconscious beliefs.
(33:03):
So it's a great place to startand like think about how do we
take that context of kink thatis based in mutuality, it's
based in social justice, in manyways right, because it says
like everyone's equal here andwe all get to make the decisions
that feel good for us.
Taking that and applying it inthis context, I think, is very
(33:28):
empowering and very healthy forcouples.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah yeah.
It gives you the opportunity tohave like a relationship
structured around how you reallywant it to be, as opposed to
how you've been told it shouldbe, even if that's in conflict
with who you innately are as theman or woman in the
relationship.
So, yeah, fascinating andinteresting, and certainly I
(33:55):
think just looking into femaleled relationships and learning
about them is a greatopportunity for all hetero
couples to reconsider what'sgoing on currently in their
relationships, especially ifthey are having a hard time
connecting or running the day today stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
So yeah, I mean one thing to really look at is, if
you're having a lot of powerstruggles in your relationship,
it's a good opportunity toreally get more curious around,
like what are we actually tryingto control here and what's
underneath the struggle here?
Is it security, is it safety?
And if you're more consciousabout okay, I'm going to take
(34:37):
control of this part and youtake control of that part, and
you both are like, yes, thatworks, you might actually be
able to resolve some of thosepower struggles, with it being a
far more explicit agreement.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Fascinating.
Thank you so much.
This has been enlightening andI think also for myself.
It gives me some tools whenlooking towards the future and,
should I have the opportunity touse the tools I can, it is.
It's fascinating and some ofyour answers were really
(35:09):
unexpected for me as far as thebenefits Super unexpected in
certain ways.
So I think that the mostsurprising one was just talking
about men being able to bevulnerable and access emotions,
like having that space,especially because the lack of
(35:31):
access to emotions that menexperience because of our
patriarchal sort of constructand what their expectation is
has affected me so deeply inrelationships that were
important to me and it has beensuch a painful part of
relationships I've been in beingconnected with someone and
having them not be able toaccess like emotions that are
(35:53):
vital to the health of arelationship.
Like you cannot have a healthyrelationship if you can't
connect to your emotions forsomeone and for a relationship
in life.
Right, Because yet so many menare moving through life in that
way and just somehow gettingthrough it and women are kind of
(36:16):
over it.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Totally over it.
I mean, you're bringing up areally important point, and this
is one of the ways thatpatriarchy harms men in such a
big, big way.
It's so profoundly conditionedinto them that they are not to
express any emotions thatconflict with the rigid
permissions of masculinity, ofprecarious masculinity, that a
(36:41):
lot of men develop what's callednormative male alexithymia.
I wrote an article about thatin psychology today a few years
ago.
And normative male alexithymiais essentially where men become
alexithymic, meaning they cannotnecessarily recognize, label
and communicate their emotions,because over time they've been
(37:02):
so disconnected from them, fromtheir gender socialization, that
it's as if that skill neverreally developed.
So it's not that they don'thave emotions, they do.
They have big ones and theywill evidence big disruptions
and dysregulations.
But they can't cognitivelyrecognize the feelings and
distinguish between theiremotions and give it a name and
(37:25):
communicate it.
So it often erupts in rage.
Right, it looks like ragebecause that's one of the
permitted emotions that men areable to express.
So their fear, their shame,their sorrow might look like an
outburst or a temper tantrum orwithdrawal, and it probably is
(37:46):
going to be something that hemight have a hard time parsing
out for himself.
So it is really hard and thisis one of the ways that men are
robbed of being their fullesthuman potential in a patriarchy,
because all of us are hurt bypatriarchy.
But you're right, women areover it.
We're tired.
We've been doing all theemotional labor because when you
(38:07):
have a partner who can't do it,guess what?
You've got to work double timeand that's exhausting for both
people in different ways.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah Well, thank you so much for sharing your
knowledge on this topic.
I really enjoyed thisconversation and learned a lot
from it, and I hope that mylisteners are really listening,
especially the dudes.
Please listen to this, becauseif you connect with some of what
(38:37):
you're hearing, then maybe youhave the opportunity to take
that to a therapist and say, hey, I think I'm suffering from
this, or this is my experience.
I want to work on it so I canbe in connection with somebody
in the future.
Can you tell all of mylisteners where they can find
you, get in touch with you andalso consume your podcast?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Of course, thank you so much.
The best place to find me ifyou're looking for a
consultation is the websitemodernintimacycom, as you said
before.
I'm on Instagram and TikTok atDr Kate Ballastrari.
I'm on YouTube at ModernIntimacy.
Then, of course, my podcast GetNaked with Dr Kate can be found
(39:20):
on iHeartRadio, apple Podcasts,spotify and pretty much
everywhere you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I will.
If you're watching me onYouTube at Annette Benedetti, I
will, of course, tag yourchannel there as well and be
sending you guys all of thelinks so that you can check her
out and learn from her.
Thank you so much.
Hopefully we will talk againsoon For my listeners.
I will see you in the lockerroom.
(39:49):
Cheers.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Ringlo sana.
Hi, this is Annette Vinedetti, your hostess for a
locker room talk and chocks, thepodcast that likes to think of
itself as the queer NPR ofraunchy women's sex talk.
You are about to sit in on thekind of conversations women have
on their girls' nights out orbehind closed doors, while
enjoying delicious drinks anddishing about sex, think, fun,
(00:26):
honest and feminist as fuck, andalways with a goal of fighting
the patriarchy, one orgasm at atime.
Welcome to the locker room.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Today's locker room talk and chots topic is what is
a female-led relationship?
Now, I have gotten a lot ofrequests for this topic.
I assume you all came to mewith a question what is a
female-led relationship?
Because you have happened uponmy content on dominating your
dude male chastity.
As it turns out, I didn't knowmuch of anything about
(01:06):
female-led relationships, whichare, I think, much more
encompassing than the thingsI've talked about.
But luckily for us, I have anexpert here today who is going
to walk us through what afemale-led relationship is, what
it looks like, how you can doit if you want to, what the
benefits are, and I've actuallyhad her on my podcast before.
(01:27):
We did a episode on sexualassault awareness month and it
was fantastic.
So I am excited to have KateBallastriere back.
She is a licensedpsychologist-certified sex
therapist and founder of ModernIntimacy, a national therapy
practice.
She is the host of Get Nakedwith Dr Kate and you can find
(01:50):
her on Instagram and TikTok.
Kate, will you take some timeto just tell my listeners a
little bit more about you Of?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
course, of course, and thank you so much for having
me back on your show.
I really love talking with youand I'm so excited to dive into
this topic today.
But, as you said, I'm Dr KateBallastriere, a licensed
psychologist, certified sextherapist and the founder of
Modern Intimacy.
I've been in this work now foralmost 20 years, surprisingly
(02:19):
which is really kind of throwingme for a loop if I'm being
honest but I would say my work.
I started in this field doingmore forensic work than clinical
, and I used to do evaluationsand treatment for sexually
violent persons who wereincarcerated, and since then my
career path has stayed along theintersection of mental health
(02:41):
and sexuality, but I definitelyspend a lot of time now focusing
on sexuality, gender and power.
So you know, the topic offemale-led relationships is a
really, really fascinating onethat touches on all three of
those sort of connecting domains.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Well, I'm excited to find out more about it and to
share it with my listeners.
So let's just dive right in,because I got tons of questions,
cheers.
Let's talk about women takingthe lead.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hi, I'm a big fan.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I am too.
I am too.
So from my brief research, whatI did find is it sounds like
female-led relationships did.
Actually, the idea was born outof the kink community.
That's what one of the articlesI read said.
You can correct me if that'swrong.
So I'm curious about theorigins of the female-led
(03:37):
relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think that it very well couldhave originated in the kink
community, based on when wedecided, sort of collectively,
that there was consciousnessaround what was happening.
But my guess is that throughoutthe course of human history
there have been somerelationships, some heterosexual
(04:01):
relationships, that have maybetaken a more organic lean in
this direction, but maybe therewasn't much of a name for it,
and certainly within apatriarchal culture.
Right, kink?
Well, kink in general is aboutcreating room for subversive
experiences and anything that'soutside of the norm.
So it may have consciously beenborn in the kink community and
(04:26):
now lives as something that weunderstand to be, you know,
something that's well, somethingthat's more kinky than not.
But a female-led relationshipdoes not have to include any
kind of kink or BESM.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Right.
So then that brings us to theactual definition of female-led
relationship.
It is between heterosexualfolks only, correct, I mean?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
that's the commonly understood definition.
There may be some same-sexfolks who play around with this
language, depending on you knowwhat language feels right for
them, and today maybe let's saywe'll talk about it within the
context of the heterosexualcommunity.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Okay, and what is the definition of it?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Well, a female-led relationship is really where the
female partner maintains morepower, more authority, more of
the decision-making than themale partner, and typically in a
heterosexual relationship, weare conditioned to understand
that men have more power.
So this definitely wouldrepresent a shift.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
So is this in all areas of the life.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It can be, but it can be limited to specific areas of
their relationship.
It might be around things likehousehold chores or the money,
or it might be just specific tosex.
It can be around parenting orthings like that.
It might be in social events.
So there are different degreesof intensity when it comes to
(06:02):
female relationships, and kindof at the lower end of intensity
the relationship probably looksmore egalitarian, but the
female partner might have likehigh-breaking authority in the
relationship, for example, andthen it sort of gets more and
more intense throughout the fourdifferent stages.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right, so we are going to go over there.
I understand you said stages,levels, levels, maybe Something
like that, but I guess before wejump into that right off the
bat, I know when people hear thetitle of this podcast and jump
into it, there are going to besome misconceptions that maybe
spring up around that andpeople's feelings about it.
(06:49):
Are there any off the top ofyour head that you can just be
like?
Here are the things thatabsolutely is not, that people
might make assumptions about.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It's really hard to answer that question because
every set of partners mightdefine this differently, so I
would be remiss to say it isthis or it isn't that.
But one thing that I'll say isthat it does not involve
exploitation or abuse right,especially when we're looking at
(07:18):
a female-led relationshiptaking place within a kinky
context.
All of this is consensual andit's mutually agreed upon and
beneficial for both partnersinvolved.
Now, a lot of times I hear apretty bifurcated response from
men.
Some men will say things likewell, that sounds amazing.
(07:41):
I'd love to let my partner leadand take a back seat and have
her sort of be the defaultperson for decisions and whatnot
.
And then there are other men whoget really, really angry and
really upset at this idea andwill say things like well, any
man who wants that must beemasculated.
But PS, you can't actuallyemasculate someone.
(08:04):
That's not a thing.
You cannot remove someone'smasculinity from them.
But I think there's a lot ofconfusion around what this looks
like, and part of why there isand why it can be a very
polarizing subject is because wedo so intrinsically over-couple
(08:24):
power and gender unconsciouslyin our culture, sometimes
consciously, but most of thetime unconsciously and that
plays a big role in our identity.
So if something is beingpresented to us that questions
our sense of safety in our ownidentity or our own role in our
relationship, we might workreally hard to discredit it as
being healthy for other people.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Right, well, let's dive into the different levels
of a female-led relationship,and then I will want us to
address the benefits for eachperson.
But maybe giving sort of peoplea view of what this looks like
first would be helpful.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Sure.
So I would say the differentlevels.
There are typically like fourlevels of control.
I know I said stages before,but it's not a stage model
necessarily, in that it may notbe, you know, graduating from
one stage to another, but thefirst level is low control and
essentially I mean this, as Isaid earlier, sort of looks like
(09:26):
a lot of shared values, a lotof shared decision-making power
and authority.
But the female partner might bethe person that both partners
default to around some areas inthe relationship.
I think we might see this asbeing something that is more
progressive, but both partnersare a part of the
(09:48):
decision-making process, even ifshe takes the lead sometimes,
and that could look like havingdeal-breaker authority, or it
could look like being the personto come up with the options
about what's going to happen orwhat the couple can entertain
together.
So it's, you know, for the mostpart it looks like a pretty
(10:08):
equal relationship.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Is this something that people, a couple,
consciously decides on, likethey're like, hey, I want to
have a female-led relationship,or is it more organic?
It's both right.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Every couple that participates in this gets there
in their own journey.
So for many folks it'scompletely unintentional and
unconscious and it just sort offollows their rhythm organically
.
But for other people it is moreconscious and intentional,
especially if this is a kinkthat's being explored by
partners.
You know in that instance theywould be a lot more explicit
(10:44):
around what's interesting andexciting and what they both need
from that dynamic and theywould set agreements around it
and renegotiate from time totime.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
What is our second stage or level?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, so moderate control, and in this sort of
moderate control level there's alittle bit more intensity in
the kind of power that thefemale partner holds.
So here she most likely willhave the final say in most of
the decisions that are made.
She may take into considerationher partner's feedback, but
(11:21):
there definitely is more of apower dynamic here.
This does not have to be kinkyplay, but it can be, and so the
power plays might be a lot moreintentional.
If they are exploring kink, itmight look more like the male
partner being in service of oror worshiping her and giving her
(11:44):
all the power, and she may notreally enjoy punishing so much,
but she really indulge infeeling like she is sort of on
the pedestal, if you will, interms of who has the control,
who has the power and who'sbeing adored in that process.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Okay, and then how would that look outside of a
kinky?
Could you give me an example injust day-to-day life how that
might look?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, well, it might look like a male partner being a
little bit more passive.
We typically think aboutmasculine and feminine as active
and passive, so it might looklike a female partner who is
more active in her energy, moreof like a go-getter, more of a
no-nonsense kind of person.
(12:34):
I like to think about the womenin female-led relationships who
are in this level of control.
They very often are eldestdaughters or they have
high-powered work environments,so they're used to being in
charge of things.
They're used to being theperson who heads up the group
(12:55):
project at school and gets shitdone.
So she's coming as a powerhouseand he might be like that's
awesome for me, I don't have todo anything, she's taking the
lead.
I love that about her.
She's awesome, she's apowerhouse.
I respect her so much.
It's just really like it's arelief for both of them that
(13:16):
they are in those differentroles.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Interesting.
And then the third level.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, so the third level is a more defined control.
So where the first two can bemore organic, this third level
of control is definitely morespecific.
So in these female-ledrelationships, each partner is
coming to that with a little bitmore intentionality around how
(13:47):
the female partner will exerciseher power and authority and how
she will not.
Both partners are reallyexplicit and they make an
agreement here.
So this can sometimes be calledlike a formal control
relationship.
It doesn't have to be calledthat, but it is a lot more.
(14:08):
I'll call you the wordregulated in the sense that it's
regulated by both of them andthey have a map for what's going
to happen and who's going to dowhat when.
So this third level of controlis typically where there are
more intentional aspects of kingplay and specifically BDSM.
(14:29):
So sometimes that can look likebondage or chastity or orgasm
control or humiliation aspectsof their sex play.
You know, whatever feelspowerful for her and creates for
him a position of morepassivity or devotion.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So does that also feed into the day-to-day life it
?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
can.
Yeah, it can.
Again, it's specific, so youknow it might come in the form
of like she might make all thedecisions about money, she might
get his money from his job andcontrol everything that happens
with it.
She may give him an allowance.
(15:18):
She may say to him no, youcan't go on that vacation, you
have to stay home and do this,this or this for me or with me
or to me, so it can be really,of course.
Again, it's exciting, it's notexploitative.
They're both willing andinterested and enjoying it, but
(15:38):
it can definitely extend intoother parts of their
relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Okay, and then I'm like what is the fourth level?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
So the last level, the fourth level, is definitely
the most intense and a lot ofpeople sort of think about this
as like a 24-7 lifestyle exampleof BDSM.
It's very likely that there isan active level of Canc or BDSM
that is happening here.
So in this example or thislevel, they might kind of have
(16:15):
these more formalized positionsin their relationship where he
is a pet or a servant or somekind of facilitator of her
desires, her pleasure, and shemay enjoy more humiliation or
pain exchange, but ultimatelyshe has the control over what's
(16:38):
happening in their lives 24-7.
Now a lot of people when theyhear about a 24-7 lifestyle kink
, they start getting reallynervous about how that can be
okay and what about if itdoesn't work for somebody
anymore.
So it's really important tonote that even for couples who
participate in a 24-7 lifestylekink, they do have safe words,
(16:59):
safe gestures and periodiccheck-ins so that they can
reevaluate does this still workfor us or do we need to make
adjustments to what's going on?
So either partner can tap outand they can say, okay, we're
going to put that back on holdand now it's egalitarian again,
we're going to figure out ournew agreements together, right?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
So I was going to ask about safe words, and so in all
of the different stages andlevels, there are safe words,
yes, or gestures, or whatever.
Tap out options.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah Right, because this is consensual.
Everybody is benefiting from it, no matter what level of
control they're participating in.
They are benefiting, it'smutually appreciated and if
something needs to change, theycan always address that with
their partner and make theadjustments, and that's what
makes it a non-exploitativedynamic.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
All right, so can we talk about?
Let's just start with the manin this situation, Typically.
What are the benefits to him?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Well, I think a lot of men really feel a tremendous
amount of pressure inrelationship to be the authority
, and not every man wants to bethe decision maker all the time.
He might feel exhausted abouthaving to be the head of
household, especially if he grewup with a lot of
responsibilities for taking careof younger siblings or taking
(18:27):
care of a parent whose emotionalneeds were larger than maybe he
was ready to navigate or shouldhave had to navigate growing up
.
So for a lot of men it givesthem permission to be more in
the receiving role in arelationship and not have to
perform to these really highlevels of masculinity High is
(18:50):
maybe even a dangerous wordthese really rigid examples of
masculinity where they have tobe the person who, sort of like,
provides, protects and makesdecisions.
It's subversive, right.
They get to be defiant in a wayto that expectation and that
can feel really reallyliberating and really great for
(19:12):
a lot of men.
They often feel reallyprotected in their vulnerability
when they're with a partner whoreally holds space for them to
be safely vulnerable.
So it allows them to be intouch with a lot of different
parts of themselves thatotherwise they might not give
themselves permission to haveaccess to.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
That's an interesting thought that I mean.
One of the aspects of toxicmasculinity that we talk about a
lot is the fact that boys aretaught that men aren't emotional
and, essentially, are raised tonot have access to their
(19:52):
feelings.
I do not know how many men Ihave dated in my life who
literally couldn't accessemotions and it was so damaging
to them, damaging to me, totheir kids, to the relationship
and the ability to havesomething, to have something
(20:13):
really in a connection.
If you can't access yourfeelings, how are you going to
have like a fulfillingconnection that feels safe and
secure?
So it would make sense to methat when they get to step away
from that sort of archetype thathas been created as this is man
(20:37):
, that then they can maybe havethe space to access their
feelings and feel secure andsupported and like it's not
scary.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I recently saw a clip of Esther Perel talking about
masculinity and she sayssomething really astute.
She said in a patriarchy, mencan be powerful or they can be
connected, but they can't beboth, and so I think this gives
men the ability to stay in aplace of connection, because
(21:13):
they don't have to contend withthe identity conflict that comes
with being vulnerable, ie notmasculine enough to stay
connected.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
So in these relationships and we'll get to
the benefits for the woman, butdo the people in these people's
lives know?
I mean, is this an sort of openout of the closet kind of
relationship, or is it usuallymore behind closed doors?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Either or or both.
I mean it again it reallydepends on the partners, and
that's the beauty of of kink ingeneral right there's no right.
There's no one right recipe.
So if partners choose toexperience this and share this
with each other behind closeddoors, that's okay.
If they have some people intheir lives that they share it
(22:07):
with, okay, great.
If they share it with everyoneand they're completely
transparent about it to theworld, great, good for them.
It's not right or wrong, goodor bad.
It just has to make sense forthose partners.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
So let's talk about women and what the major benefit
to the woman in therelationship is.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah Well, I mean as a shock to no one.
Most women growing up in apatriarchy feel really oppressed
in their power sometimes, andespecially in heterosexual
dating relationships.
A lot of women have had theexperience of having to stay
small, not being able to reallystand in their true power, for
(22:51):
fear of the consequences of thatright For women.
A lot of the time when theyreally stand true in their own
power and sort of like square upin their authenticity, if you
will, they face a lot of bigrejections because women are not
supposed to embody their fullvoice or embody their full
strength or their full power andauthority in this world.
(23:12):
So a lot of women who enjoythis space have probably felt a
lot of that and they're like, no, I get to be big, I get to be
the person in control, I get tobe the person who is in charge
and makes decisions.
And for a lot of women that canfeel a lot safer than being in
this position of having tocapitulate to a man in power.
(23:37):
So I think it gives them justsuch a beautiful access point to
a truth inside of themselvesthat they can step into fully
and then, if they're not in a 24seven dynamic.
They can pull back from when itfeels right.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
So that's interesting as well.
I identify with, like I have ayou know, a pretty big dominant
personality and for me it hasfelt like a choice.
My life is a choice of,interestingly enough, either
being able to be kind of thatbig person, step into my power,
(24:20):
or be connected.
Like I feel like I can't havelike a truly fulfilling intimate
relationship when I'm insistingon standing in my power, but it
sounds like this kind ofrelationship actually would give
a woman the ability to do thatWe'll also maintaining a
(24:41):
connection with someone who youknow now can be open and
emotional right and appreciateswhat she is bringing to the
table.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I mean I think there are a lot of pros for women in
that sense, right, and just likethere are pros for men in these
, in these dynamics.
And, on the one hand, becauseof the way we're socialized
around gender and power, for alot of men this, this female lad
relationship, is the firstplace where they can really
fully practice the vulnerabilityof worshiping another human,
(25:14):
worshiping a woman, beinghumiliated, being ashamed, in a
safe, contained space.
Those are vulnerable feelingsthat a lot of men are never
really permitted to expresswithout fear of, you know, sort
of losing their man card quoteto, to paraphrase.
And so this dynamic, you know,gives men and women a safer
(25:39):
place to play around with thesedynamics so that they can be in
their full power or in theirfull connection and still stay
connected and stay safe, right,like the relationship isn't
going to deteriorate if I am bigand strong in my power, if I
allow myself to be worshiped andserved and, to you know, be
revered in that way, so it canbe a really healing practice for
(26:01):
couples.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, it's interesting.
It almost sounds like it is oneof the ways I feel, like I hear
a lot of dissatisfaction inrelationships around security,
you know, and it sounds likethis is an opportunity to
experience that by doing theopposite of what we've been told
(26:27):
our roles are as a man and awoman and what our roles are
supposed to be in a relationship.
What are some of the biggestchallenges a couple is going to
face?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Just like the benefits are unique to each
partner, so are the theconsequences or the negative
aspects of it.
But one of the things that Ihear from women a lot is that
they get tired.
You know, women typically aredoing more of the emotional
labor in our world, and sosometimes if a female led
(27:01):
relationship is is besieged withtwo partners and she's doing
more of the emotional labor andshe doesn't have other outlets
to receive in other ways, or ifthey don't take enough breaks
for her to be out of that role,it can start to feel like a job
right.
I hear this from a lot ofdominatrices too.
(27:21):
It's like they enjoy the power,but it's also a lot of work to
like, hold space and curate anexperience for someone else, so
it can sometimes feel exhaustingand she may at some point want
to step out of that role and beattended to in ways that don't
require her to all to do all thethinking and all the decision
(27:42):
making.
For men, it can feel reallywonderful to give up all of that
power, but after a while, ifthey're not being honest with
themselves or with their partner, they can start to feel
disempowered or like they areresentful of what's going on
with their partner, especiallyif she's not making as much time
(28:03):
for him as he might want and heis maybe sort of staying in a
place of devotion, but also thatmight keep him a little bit
more isolated.
So it's all about balancebetween the two of them, and
it's important that partners arechecking in with each other
regularly to make sure that thebalance works for them both,
(28:26):
because things change in ourlives too, and that can make it
difficult to have the sameenthusiasm for these roles.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Right, right, what would you say for people who are
listening to this right now andthey're like I think that's
kind of what we're doing, orthey've looked into it and
they're like I'm interested inembarking on doing this.
What are some steps people cantake?
(28:56):
First, to bring up theconversation with their partner,
especially, let's say, if it'sa woman who's gonna bring this
up to her dude.
And then maybe some quick tipson, like a quick start package,
if you will, to giving it a shot.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, well, I would say, if you're curious about
this and you don't know enoughabout it, maybe the first step
is to get more education and youcan do that on your own before
you talk to your partner.
Or you can talk to your partnerand say, hey, I was listening
to this podcast and they talkedabout something that was so
interesting.
Have you ever heard about thisand are you curious about it?
(29:35):
Do you wanna explore thistogether?
Cause it's kind of my interestis peaked right and you can
definitely embark on thattogether, and there are a lot of
blogs out there that do talkabout female doms or female,
which is different but sometimesoverlapping with a female-led
relationship.
(29:57):
But start to explore, like yourideas about gender and power and
what areas do either or both ofyou wanna flip the script, what
would feel interesting to youand take your time to outline
some places that you can start.
It's okay to start small, maybegiving over one decision,
making peace of yourrelationship, see how it goes
(30:21):
and engage in regular check-ins.
If this is a kinky dynamic andBDSM is a part of the female-led
relationship, it is reallyimportant to practice the
aftercare and debriefing thatcan help you both come back to
your relationship roles, yourhuman roles, but also just to
(30:43):
continue reinforcing safety andthe practice of communicating
what worked about this and whatdidn't.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Right, so you don't have to hard launch in and like
hand over everything at once.
I mean listening to thisbecause I'm really learning
about it for the first time here.
I'm like I could see howaspects of this would have been
really good for me when I'm notcurrently in a relationship, but
in retrospect.
(31:11):
What has stood out to me themost, though, kate is.
I don't think especially.
I'm openly bisexual and datepeople of all genders, but when
I have been in moreheteronormative looking
relationships, something that Iam thinking now has been really
(31:31):
harmful is that I think there isan inherent expectation of the
role the guy is gonna take andthe role I'm going to take, but
I have never sat down with apartner and said, hey, how about
we talk about who's?
going to lead what you know.
I mean, I've talked about itand you know I've had kinky
(31:54):
partnerships where we've playedwith a domination and BDSM, but
I never used the same tools inour day to day life.
And as we're talking about thisand you're listing the pros and
cons, I'm like wow, that wouldhave been super helpful in my
(32:14):
relationships with men, becauseassumptions are made.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Totally, totally.
I mean that's the thing aboutliving in a heteronormative
culture.
It's literally conditioned intous since before we're born who
we're going to be and how weshould act, based on the
genitals that we're born withand the constructive gender that
as a culture, we've sort of.
I don't want to say we'veagreed to it, but that's been
(32:41):
the script we've been given.
So this is a far less consciousdynamic the gender and power
for folks who are heterosexualor who are in heterosexual
peering or presentingrelationships.
It does evoke a lot of justbiases and unconscious beliefs.
(33:03):
So it's a great place to startand like think about how do we
take that context of kink thatis based in mutuality, it's
based in social justice, in manyways right, because it says
like everyone's equal here andwe all get to make the decisions
that feel good for us.
Taking that and applying it inthis context, I think, is very
(33:28):
empowering and very healthy forcouples.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah yeah.
It gives you the opportunity tohave like a relationship
structured around how you reallywant it to be, as opposed to
how you've been told it shouldbe, even if that's in conflict
with who you innately are as theman or woman in the
relationship.
So, yeah, fascinating andinteresting, and certainly I
(33:55):
think just looking into femaleled relationships and learning
about them is a greatopportunity for all hetero
couples to reconsider what'sgoing on currently in their
relationships, especially ifthey are having a hard time
connecting or running the day today stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
So yeah, I mean one thing to really look at is, if
you're having a lot of powerstruggles in your relationship,
it's a good opportunity toreally get more curious around,
like what are we actually tryingto control here and what's
underneath the struggle here?
Is it security, is it safety?
And if you're more consciousabout okay, I'm going to take
(34:37):
control of this part and youtake control of that part, and
you both are like, yes, thatworks, you might actually be
able to resolve some of thosepower struggles, with it being a
far more explicit agreement.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Fascinating.
Thank you so much.
This has been enlightening andI think also for myself.
It gives me some tools whenlooking towards the future and,
should I have the opportunity touse the tools I can, it is.
It's fascinating and some ofyour answers were really
(35:09):
unexpected for me as far as thebenefits Super unexpected in
certain ways.
So I think that the mostsurprising one was just talking
about men being able to bevulnerable and access emotions,
like having that space,especially because the lack of
(35:31):
access to emotions that menexperience because of our
patriarchal sort of constructand what their expectation is
has affected me so deeply inrelationships that were
important to me and it has beensuch a painful part of
relationships I've been in beingconnected with someone and
having them not be able toaccess like emotions that are
(35:53):
vital to the health of arelationship.
Like you cannot have a healthyrelationship if you can't
connect to your emotions forsomeone and for a relationship
in life.
Right, Because yet so many menare moving through life in that
way and just somehow gettingthrough it and women are kind of
(36:16):
over it.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Totally over it.
I mean, you're bringing up areally important point, and this
is one of the ways thatpatriarchy harms men in such a
big, big way.
It's so profoundly conditionedinto them that they are not to
express any emotions thatconflict with the rigid
permissions of masculinity, ofprecarious masculinity, that a
(36:41):
lot of men develop what's callednormative male alexithymia.
I wrote an article about thatin psychology today a few years
ago.
And normative male alexithymiais essentially where men become
alexithymic, meaning they cannotnecessarily recognize, label
and communicate their emotions,because over time they've been
(37:02):
so disconnected from them, fromtheir gender socialization, that
it's as if that skill neverreally developed.
So it's not that they don'thave emotions, they do.
They have big ones and theywill evidence big disruptions
and dysregulations.
But they can't cognitivelyrecognize the feelings and
distinguish between theiremotions and give it a name and
(37:25):
communicate it.
So it often erupts in rage.
Right, it looks like ragebecause that's one of the
permitted emotions that men areable to express.
So their fear, their shame,their sorrow might look like an
outburst or a temper tantrum orwithdrawal, and it probably is
(37:46):
going to be something that hemight have a hard time parsing
out for himself.
So it is really hard and thisis one of the ways that men are
robbed of being their fullesthuman potential in a patriarchy,
because all of us are hurt bypatriarchy.
But you're right, women areover it.
We're tired.
We've been doing all theemotional labor because when you
(38:07):
have a partner who can't do it,guess what?
You've got to work double timeand that's exhausting for both
people in different ways.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah Well, thank you so much for sharing your
knowledge on this topic.
I really enjoyed thisconversation and learned a lot
from it, and I hope that mylisteners are really listening,
especially the dudes.
Please listen to this, becauseif you connect with some of what
(38:37):
you're hearing, then maybe youhave the opportunity to take
that to a therapist and say, hey, I think I'm suffering from
this, or this is my experience.
I want to work on it so I canbe in connection with somebody
in the future.
Can you tell all of mylisteners where they can find
you, get in touch with you andalso consume your podcast?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Of course, thank you so much.
The best place to find me ifyou're looking for a
consultation is the websitemodernintimacycom, as you said
before.
I'm on Instagram and TikTok atDr Kate Ballastrari.
I'm on YouTube at ModernIntimacy.
Then, of course, my podcast GetNaked with Dr Kate can be found
(39:20):
on iHeartRadio, apple Podcasts,spotify and pretty much
everywhere you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I will.
If you're watching me onYouTube at Annette Benedetti, I
will, of course, tag yourchannel there as well and be
sending you guys all of thelinks so that you can check her
out and learn from her.
Thank you so much.
Hopefully we will talk againsoon For my listeners.
I will see you in the lockerroom.
(39:49):
Cheers.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Ringlo sana.
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