March 14, 2025 • 26 mins
Marketing legend Dave Mastovich pulls back the curtain on what truly works in healthcare marketing during this eye-opening conversation about systematic referral generation. Drawing from his experience scaling a healthcare system from $1 billion to $10 billion in just three years, Dave reveals why most healthcare providers completely miss five of the six essential target markets they should be focusing on.
The conversation dives deep into a refreshingly straightforward approach that any provider – from solo practitioners to multi-location groups – can implement immediately. You'll discover four simple yet powerful questions that unlock invaluable patient insights, and how sharing what you learn transforms casual patients into raving fans who eagerly provide reviews and referrals.
Dave challenges conventional wisdom about marketing metrics, arguing that "perfect is the enemy of good" when measuring effectiveness. His practical approach to calculating patient acquisition costs and lifetime value provides a framework that works without needing complex spreadsheets or consultants. The revelation about optimal marketing investment ratios is particularly eye-opening – spending too little can be just as dangerous as spending too much.
The discussion concludes with two underutilized strategies that deliver outsized returns: mystery shopping (seeing your practice through patients' eyes) and video marketing (showing prospects what to expect). Throughout the episode, Dave's no-nonsense perspective cuts through marketing hype to deliver actionable strategies any healthcare provider can implement, regardless of size or budget.
https://davidmmastovich.com/
https://massolutions.biz/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmmastovich
https://www.linkedin.com/company/massolutions/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome to this week's episode of
Marketing 101.
I got a really cool guest thisweek, Mr Dave Mastovich.
He's written a really cool bookthat we're going to dive right
into on this podcast.
Thanks for being here, man,Appreciate your time.
Thanks for having me, Enrico.
Yeah yeah, Tell us a little bitabout what got you started,
what made you write the book,who you help.
Give them a little bit of abackground and then I'm sure
(00:22):
we'll dive into some great stuff.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Going way back early in my career I had the
opportunity to do turnarounds inthe media, so I worked in radio
, tv and print and that led tothen jumping into healthcare and
I ended up going intohealthcare and doing some
turnarounds of hospitals andthen healthcare systems and one
of those became one of thelargest in the country.
It was under $1 billion when Iwas brought there and within
(00:46):
three years we grew to $10billion with a B and that was
UPMC Health System and thatenabled me to really sort of lay
the groundwork to establishmyself as a marketing thought
leader and someone that has donethe marketing side, the revenue
growth side, the pipelinegrowth side.
And after that I saw there wasparallels between education and
(01:06):
healthcare, that education wasabout 10 to 15 years behind
healthcare.
So I jumped in and helped growa university applying all this
stuff to healthcare.
Because both industries theultimate consumer doesn't buy,
the health insurance tends topay or the government pays for
both schooling and forhealthcare.
(01:28):
Parents pay, alumni pay,fundraisers pay over here,
insurers pay, the governmentpays.
So after that I then startedMass Solutions, my company,
which is a growth marketingconsultancy that also does
marketing, implementation,activation.
And after my first book, whichwas a good 10 years ago, I
(01:48):
decided my second book would befor the new audience.
So my first book, enrico, wasthe standard one.
For anybody that's probablymaybe over the age of 40.
That books were about 200 pagesand hardcover and all that
stuff.
And so for my second book Isaid I'm just going to take the
no bullshit process.
We built no bullshit marketing.
We have a lot of IP around.
No bullshit marketing.
(02:09):
I said we're going to take that.
I'm going to tell anecdotes andanalogies.
I'm going to practice what Ipreach.
I talk about how anecdotes andanalogies are what the science
proves we remember.
And I said I'm going to do abook in a hundred pages or less.
It ended up being like 104.
But a book in 100 pages or less, it ended up being like 104.
So that's the book no BullshitMarketing.
I do focus a lot on healthcare.
It's 17 contrarian ways toincrease referrals for
(02:31):
healthcare providers, and sothat's the book and that's the
background.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
It's cool how you get into it.
I always love the backstory.
There's always a passion orsomething that gets people to.
They always see you at the endfor what you've done.
They never see the journey andhow hard and how much work it
usually takes.
But there's some great stuff inthe book, like the systemic
referral systems that you talkabout and six strategic.
We're going to dive into thatbecause I'm going to learn a lot
on this.
With running chiropracticclinics and teaching and
(02:58):
coaching and consultingchiropractors and people in the
health care facility on how togrow and market.
Referral marketing is thepinnacle.
It's the foundation to allmarketing.
One, it's free.
Two, it's organic.
Three, it's trustworthy.
Many different reasons why youwant to start on a solid
referral base and then build upfrom there.
(03:18):
But yeah, tell us a littleabout that.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Well, it starts off with knowing that there are six
target markets, six right fittarget markets that matter for
any company, across business tobusiness or business to consumer
.
There's these six right fittarget markets that then you
have to segment for yourspecific scenario, and those six
right fit target markets areoften not realized.
(03:41):
So a couple of them areneglected.
And the first one's notneglected, it's current
customers.
Well, it's sort of neglectedbecause people actually probably
don't market enough to theirexisting customers.
The second target market isprospective customers.
That's where we spend a lot ofour time marketing.
The third one is currentemployees.
Got to market to them andmarket to them well, in the same
(04:02):
way that you market to clientsand customers and market to them
well, in the same way that youmarket to clients and customers.
The fourth one is prospectiveemployees.
But then it moves into thefifth one, which is current
referral sources or centers ofinfluence or raving fans, and
prospective referral sources orpeople you can make centers of
influence or make them ravingfans.
That's the start, at the crux ofall this.
(04:23):
That's what I learned fromdecades of doing this is what
makes bullshit marketing.
Is people not realizing twothings that there's these six
right fit target markets thatyou have to segment and drill
down based on your scenario.
And then you have to let thebehavioral science and the math
drive the creative art.
Those are the two majortakeaways that I've worked on
(04:45):
and what drives no bullshitmarketing as I see it, and what
we do for all of our clients.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Love it.
Yeah, and it sounds likethere's a strategy behind the
way you put one through six aswell.
It wasn't just random, correct.
It looks like one builds on theother as well it does.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That's a great point.
So what I found when I firststarted doing that first ever
turnaround, way back when I wasa kid, with two radio stations
that were ranked dead last outof 14 in the market, was that
current clients are what weneglect a little bit because we
actually don't tell our story tothem.
We think, oh, they like us, wedon't tell their story enough.
Then we fixate on theseprospective clients but we
(05:24):
forget those other four targetmarkets.
We really don't do a systematicway of doing it.
It's not that we forgetcompletely.
We kind of know we got to keepemployees happy.
We know we have to recruitpeople.
We know we got to get people torefer to us.
But we don't do it in the samesystematic fashion on Ricoh that
we do current and prospectiveclients or customers.
(05:46):
So that's how it all came about.
It all came about that way wasstart off just like everybody
else, focusing on prospectivenew customers or new clients,
and then I realized those otherfive were pretty significant and
started building a system tomake sure you could reach them
again and again and again, allto drive pipeline growth and
revenue growth.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, I think as soon as you say the word marketing,
people think perspectivemarketing.
They don't even think of theircurrent client base as being
marketed to.
There's no reason to market tothem.
They're repeat customers,they're coming back or whatever
it may be.
So dive into that a little bit.
How would you market to acurrent patient, a current
client, somebody that's beencoming in maybe often?
(06:26):
What does marketing even looklike to them?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yes.
So with current customers,current patients, let's stay in
the healthcare realm withchiropractic PT all those ones
that listen to your podcast.
In the healthcare situation wekind of do a half-assed way of
talking to our current patients.
We might include them in like anewsletter that we just kind of
do a half-assed way of talkingto our current patients.
We might include them in like anewsletter that we just kind of
force out and it's got way toomuch copy and way too many
(06:52):
things we're trying to cover.
Or we might maybe, if we'redoing really good, we maybe send
them a postcard around theirbirthday, you know, but really
when you take a look at thosecurrent patients, it's the
entire experience that you getfrom them and then you walk them
through that.
But you also repeatedly reachout and ask them their take and
this is the big thing I talkabout both quantitative, market
(07:14):
insights and research andqualitative.
Quantitative is you send outyour survey every you know.
Hopefully you use somethinglike you know where you're able
to get their feedback afterevery visit or every so many
visits, but then also talking tothem qualitatively, either on
the phone or calling them asideand ask them just a couple basic
(07:34):
questions.
What's the one reason why youfirst came here?
What's the main reason why youstill come here?
What's one thing that makes usunique?
What's one thing you'd changestill come here?
What's one thing that makes usunique?
What's one thing you'd change?
Those four questions of acurrent patient are going to
tell you so much to help youkeep them and get other ones.
And then you have to tell themthat you listened.
So you have to say in yournewsletter make it better, make
(07:56):
your email newsletter better andclearer and more concise, and
say to them we've been talkingto patients like you and we
learned three things.
First one was that you reallylove this and we're going to
keep doing that.
The second one is you said wecould probably be better at this
and we're doing X and Y to getbetter at that.
Third one is you said why don'tyou do this?
And we looked into that.
And if you can do it, you sayhere's what we're going to do,
(08:19):
and if you can't, you say why.
So now, these trends that youheard again and again and again,
they're real.
If you heard them four or five,six times, when you talk to 15
patients, they're real.
That qualitative research isreal.
You now come back and typicallyit'll be about three things you
find out.
And one you kind of already doand they told you they really
(08:39):
liked it.
The other, you learned and youstarted doing.
The third one you either can,can't do or you're starting to
do.
Then you go back and tell themand what that makes them think
is whoa, they listened to me.
That makes them proud of beingthat person.
That makes them more apt togive you a testimonial.
That makes them more apt togive you a five-star review.
That's because you asked themquestions and listened and then
(09:02):
showed that you listened.
Most people do a survey andnever do anything to tell Sound
familiar out there listeners.
You sent out the thing, you gotall the thing back and you
never went back and told anybodyyou did anything with it.
That doesn't make them want tofill that out.
That doesn't make them want togive you a five-star review.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
No, you're right.
We focus so much about moderntechnology and how to reach our
patients and our prospectiveclients as well, and it's really
moving towards getting intotheir text messages, getting
into their phones, getting intoright, getting as close to in
front of their face as youpossibly can especially when
(09:42):
you're working like majorhospital chain businesses like
yours that you were helped.
I mean, they really need to bepresent and whenever an
emergency happens, that peoplethink of them first.
For us, we need to do that aswell as solopreneurs or solo
locations.
But what are some challengestoday that are different than
maybe from 2000, that are maybemore competitive, or things that
we should be focusing on to getthat, I guess, preemptive,
(10:04):
preemptive feeling in thecommunity and in our areas so
that we can help more people inthat same way and then get into
this type of marketing once weget in contact with them.
I think it's the contact, it'sthat friction to get their
information either an email or aphone number, whatever it may
be.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Well, I think the first thing, the reason I did
this, the reason I started MassSolutions, was my dad had a
small business when I grew upand as I got into my career, I
thought, wow, imagine what wecould have done if I were able
to go back in time and help mydad market his business.
So that and many other reasonsmade me passionate about
starting Mass Solutions and Iwanted any company, regardless
(10:39):
of size or industry, to be ableto apply the same theories and
tactics and approaches that Isaw work at a multi-billion
dollar company and otherhundreds of millions of dollar a
year companies.
And so that's my first point isto everyone listening is the
UPMCs of the world are great.
There's no doubt that's a greatorganization.
However, we had to battle youguys and you don't realize that
(11:02):
that there was manyconversations like, oh, this
physical therapy place has eightlocations and they're kicking
our ass, okay, so you have torealize that you have a quality
opportunity, that you have to.
You have to take that story andtell that against the biggies
and be able to talk about thatand the reason this system works
(11:23):
for any size companies.
I just described you qualitativeresearch with four questions
and those four questions can beasked by anybody at your company
and they have to do somethingreally hard two things that are
really hard.
When you ask the questions, youready, you have to shut up and
listen.
That's hard for all of us, butif you ask those four questions
(11:46):
I told you to and you justlisten, and then you track it,
you just put in your phone.
Talk to Dave Mastovich, he saidthis.
Talk to Pete Harris.
He said that it doesn't have tobe any.
Look, you're doing this foryourself.
There's no grade.
You don't get a C because youdidn't put it in a spreadsheet.
Do whatever you want with it,but just make sure you track it,
(12:08):
paper and pencil in a spiritwhatever you want, because you
will see by the third person youdo it the third, I guarantee it
.
Anybody can call me.
If it doesn't happen by thethird person, you'll get at
least one trend that all threeof those people said.
That's how real this stuff is.
So the things that I talk aboutin my book are things that can
be done by a person that runsone chiropractic location.
(12:28):
A person one chiropracticlocation.
A person has eight chiropracticlocations.
A person has four physicaltherapy centers.
Okay Now, yes, when you have 20, you do have more resources,
you have more budget.
When you have a hundred, youhave more budget.
But I'm saying you can applythis.
Anybody listening can applythis.
Anybody listening can takethose six target markets.
Anybody listening can do thatmarket research.
Anybody listening can go backand tell their patients what
(12:50):
they heard yes, no, I love it.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
That makes sense.
Start there, because if it'sanything anyone has, it's
listening, it's they have apatient base.
So, right there, you have asource, you have a pool, you can
get information from right offthe bat.
So ask those four questions andgo from there.
Great, so that's internal.
Uh, what about like things likeemployee employee engagement?
You said there's things thatanyone can ask for questions.
(13:14):
Anyone in your business can askhow do we get our employees
engaged in the marketing process, both internal and for external
?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
The first is those very same questions same four
can be asked to employees andwill bring you value.
Why did you start working here?
Why do you stay Now?
You're going to be frightenedwhen you do this.
Why'd you start working here?
Wow, it's 10 minutes closerthan the last place I was.
Oh geez, here I thought we weregood.
Same thing happens to me.
(13:43):
Don't believe me.
And then the second one is whydo you stay here?
Be prepared.
It might be the benefits.
It might be it's close to myhouse.
It might be my boss is great.
It might be I don't know.
I need a raise.
Whatever, ask them that,qualitatively, you've got seven
employees.
Ask each of them the same fourquestions.
What's one thing you've changed?
(14:04):
I want to get more money.
Okay, beyond that, we all wantmore money.
Beyond that, you just got to beprepared to ask these four
questions.
What's one thing you've changed?
Another thing you can throw inis another way.
You can just throw in and saywhat's one word you'd use to
describe the company?
Get your employees to answerthat, because that'll bring you
a lot of value about how theysee you and what they see as
your strength.
So that alone will help.
(14:24):
And then you come back and youtell them in an all hands-on
meeting.
You say over the last month weverbally talked to all of you to
gather some qualitativeinsights and we heard a couple
of trends.
We heard A, we heard B, weheard C and we heard D.
We're going to keep doing A.
(14:45):
You told us to try to tweak B.
You gave us this great ideaabout C.
Now D you guys talked about too.
I want you to know weresearched that it's probably
not going to work out.
For this reason, you just gotinstant credibility.
We told them a bunch of stuff.
They agreed with two of them.
The third one they're going totry to do.
Fourth one they told us whythey can't.
Unless the person's just anangry person that we can't worry
(15:06):
about, they're going to go.
That's fair.
They looked into it and saidthey can't do it.
You just got instantcredibility with your employees.
You now are going to help withretention and you learn from
them.
So those same questions workfor employees too.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
It's funny how it's engagement.
It's both from your clients,your patients, your employees.
Engaging them is what bringsthe best out of each of them and
then you get the benefitsbecause you can put that into
your business and amplify thatstuff, which is great.
Another thing I work with myclients on and we'll be wrapping
up soon.
(15:39):
But if there's anythingimportant you want to dive into,
cut me off.
But measuring Another thingthat's in your book as well
measuring not just the successes, but measuring marketing.
I find that really tough.
I just had a great conversationthis morning with programmatic
(16:00):
marketing, which is a newerrealm for chiropractors and
things like this about gettinginto geotagging and being on a
commercial a 15-second or30-second commercial in between
Netflix or YouTube or whateverit is, whatever they're watching
.
That's kind of new.
It's nice that you cangeotarget it.
Maybe for you in a hospitalthat made sense.
Commercials were perfect.
Television and radio made sense.
You blasted over a larger areaFor a place with four locations
or one location they have a verysmall thing.
(16:21):
So that's the cool thing abouttechnology.
But it got me thinking that Iasked them a question and it
made me think it was how do Igauge the success?
I'm just starting to figure outGoogle.
I've been doing it for 20 yearsand I'm just starting to figure
out the metrics and truly whatbudget should work and cost per
click and the lead conversion onthat.
What is this new realm ofmarketing?
(16:42):
But how do you measure thisstatistically to know what's
working or not?
Because most providers andentrepreneurs are just like
dollar in, dollar out, newpatient in marketing, dollar out
and that's it.
They don't really think abouteverything that goes in between.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Well, the first thing I want to add to something on
the last question was your datais gold, any data that you have.
So the data of your patients isgold.
I understand HIPAA.
I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that the name, theage, the zip code enables you to
look at that and think andyou're going to see the 80-20
principle.
In effect, the 80-20 principleworks with everything in our
(17:17):
lives the clothes we wear if welook in our closet, 20% of our
clothes are worn 80% of the time.
The foods we eat 20% of thefoods we eat are eaten 80% of
the time.
The same thing happens withyour practices 80% of your
patients will come from 20% ofwhatever activity.
So, for instance, if you aregetting referrals, if you're a
(17:39):
physical therapy place that getsreferrals, or a surgeon that
gets referrals, or anybody outthere that gets another provider
to refer to them, 80% of thatreferrals will come from 20% of
those referral sources, thoseproviders.
So your data you have to lookat that, you have to start
tracking that.
So if you are getting referrals, you have to start tracking
that, because 80% of them willcome from 20%.
(18:02):
So you then know I want to talkto more people that look like
this 20%.
I'm not going to completelyignore the other 80%.
I'm going to look at thesepeople that look like the 20%
that refer the most.
I'm going to go out to reachthem.
So that's the first thing thatI want to make sure is your own
data is good, both on thereferral side and the patient
side.
So that's one way.
(18:23):
The second thing is take thatmore broad perspective and say I
want to look at my customeracquisition cost or my patient
acquisition cost, and I willstress perfect is the enemy of
good.
You want to start somewhere.
It's your practice, it's yourdata.
There is no grade.
As I said earlier.
You don't get a B, a C or a Dor you don't even get an A.
(18:44):
You do what's best for you andyou learn, so you do.
You've done that witheverything else at your practice
your physical therapy place,your chiropractor.
You've learned on the fly.
The same as with this.
So you go and say I want to tryto guesstimate my patient
acquisition cost, because if Ican get my patient acquisition
cost, I can then guesstimate mylifetime patient value.
Those are both very importantif you're not doing that.
(19:06):
But people get hung up on tryingto be perfect when it's.
Just take the expenses that youhave that go towards sales
marketing to get the customers,and then look at how many new
ones you got.
You think you got from year oneto year two and then divide
those and you've got a roughpatient acquisition cost,
lifetime value.
Go and see how long it is untilsomeone doesn't come anymore.
(19:29):
Just try to play with the dataa little bit.
Don't perfect, examine good.
You probably already know this.
You probably already know thatit might be a year and a half
that someone tends to come, ormaybe they remain five years.
They come for a year.
They don't come for six months.
Tends to come, or maybe theyremain five years.
They come for a year, theydon't come for six months and
they come once or twice a yearin chiropractic.
You know these kinds of things.
Don't obsess over perfect.
(19:51):
Now, as you gather more data, Iwant you to be more stringent
with the actual specifics.
But start out figuring that out, because then you can say it
costs me roughly two grand toget a new patient, but the
lifetime value is 3,700.
That's when it's good.
If it costs you two grand andthe lifetime value is two grand,
(20:11):
stop.
That's not a sustainablebusiness.
But if it gets you 10 grand andyou only put in one grand,
don't think you stick your chestout.
10 to one ratio is not goodeither.
That means you're leavingmarket share on the table.
If you're getting 10 grand andyou're only spending a thousand
to get a 10 grand person, youought to spend two or 3,000 and
(20:32):
get more of them, and so you'llactually get more patients and
more market share, which, in thelong run, is going to matter
because of your margin.
So those are some ways that Ithink you can look at KPIs that
work.
So get patient acquisitioncosts and lifetime patient value
and the ratio of those two.
That's pretty powerful and,again, perfect is the enemy of
good.
Don't worry about the CFOranking you or your accountant
(20:56):
to tell you that's wrong.
You're off by eight bucks.
We're just starting out tryingto get something here, guys.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, I love your numbers and I love where you
come from, because you just blewthe socks off of half the
listeners because you saidsomething like two grand to make
3700.
Even if you shave a zero offthat, you got the chiropractor
shaking in their boots like I'mgonna spend 200 to get 370 and
they and they scratch theirheads like that.
That's a waste of time.
(21:22):
Yeah, typically don't.
They don't understand themarketing on this.
So, even though they figure outit costs $110 on a Google
client or to get them in thedoor or whatever, they're
looking at their case valueaverages, which could be
anywhere between $1,000 and$3,000 for most chiropractors,
and that's still so.
They're looking at $100 to make$2,000.
And then when they try andapply other avenues, they
(21:45):
realize, oh, nothing works.
It's because your budget is waytoo low.
It's way you're not getting thereach that you need to.
But that's a whole differentpodcast for another time.
I know that.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I'll come back.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Great, yeah, great, great post there.
What else are we missing fromthe book?
I mean you got.
I mean we can talk all dayabout the book.
But I asked you a little bitabout the future.
I mean, where do you thinkthings are going?
But anything you want to closeoff from you, take the rest of
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
It's all yours.
I'm going to give a couple ofthings.
The first is and this one mightI don't know how your listeners
will do I think you want to seeand hear what customers see and
hear.
So I told you about how to hearyou ask questions, be quiet and
listen.
But I would challenge you to uh, get some mystery shoppers.
(22:37):
I don't know if anybody's doingthat in chiropractic much, but
we've done it for senior livingquite a bit and I was one of the
first to do this and I wasreally a challenge.
So 20 or so years ago I didthis in health systems and it
was so hard because you had to,like, fake the person's
prescription and you had to havedoctors in on it and stuff, so
you couldn't do hundreds of them.
But if you get someone whocomes into a chiropractic office
(23:00):
or a physical therapy locationand you were able to hire them
as a mystery shopper and youbrought them in, you don't need
to do a ton of them.
You can do three and you willbe overwhelmed and amazed both
good and bad at what they comeback and tell you, because they
will tell you their experiencefrom the time they tried to book
appointment online, had a phonecall what they saw when they
(23:23):
walked in the door, what theysaw when they were taken to the
exam room, how they were exited,and it's all stuff that you
think you know but you're nothearing what they're thinking.
They'll tell you and you mightnot agree with it, but it's
perception.
I was telling someone today whata client misperceived about
what we did and I said it sucksand it's unfair, but that's how
(23:46):
the client perceived us andthat's not good for my solutions
and I have to own that.
And so I have to go talk to myteam.
We as the team have to go fixthat and let the client know
because I disagree.
It's an unfair misperception.
Now there's other times it's afair perception.
I go, oh shit, we're not doingwhat we should.
That's what you're going tolearn with mystery shopping.
(24:06):
So see and hear what thecustomer sees and hears.
The hearing is through theasking the questions and
tracking it and listening, andthe seeing is getting some
mystery shopping.
And then the third thing Iwould add to close is video,
video, video.
You got to be doing video.
If you're not doing video insome way, shape or form, you've
(24:27):
got to be doing video.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, I've been repeating that repetitively.
People want to see what theexperience is going to feel like
, or what it's going to looklike right, or what they're
walking into for sure Hospitals,chiropractic clinics, I mean.
They want to make sure they'reafraid it's medicine, it's
chiropractic, I mean, it'sphysical medicine, whatever it
is.
They're afraid of what's goingto come.
That's the thing, and it itshows them the inside and it may
(24:51):
enlighten newer people to thepossibilities of things they
didn't even know about.
Like, wow, they can do that.
I didn't know they could dothat.
So video is totally, uh,totally came.
With all the new apps and stuff, you can shoot video and have
it out.
This podcast will be up andgoing in about six minutes.
It's just boom.
Yeah, with all this stuff.
That's great, man, this isawesome.
Anything else you want to leavethem with, or do we cover all
the bases?
(25:11):
Where can they reach out to youbesides?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
you buying the book.
Yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent ways.
So masssolutionsbiz and it'sM-A-S-S-O-L-U-T-I-O-N-S.
Dot biz.
We get you more biz and that'sthe company website.
Mine is daveatmassolutionsbizand I'll gladly talk to anybody.
Anybody that emails me and asksI'll sign a book for them.
(25:38):
You know anybody that mentionsthe podcast in the email and
that's the website.
You can hit me up on LinkedIn.
Have a ton of connections andfollowers and I'm posting pretty
regularly on LinkedIn.
Happy to talk to anybody.
Get the book on Amazon, barnesand Noble, wherever.
It's a no bullshit marketing,dave Mastovich.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Pretty simple.
Thank you so much for your time.
Appreciate it.
Thank you Great.
Take care.
Hey everyone, welcome to this week's episode of
Marketing 101.
I got a really cool guest thisweek, Mr Dave Mastovich.
He's written a really cool bookthat we're going to dive right
into on this podcast.
Thanks for being here, man,Appreciate your time.
Thanks for having me, Enrico.
Yeah yeah, Tell us a little bitabout what got you started,
what made you write the book,who you help.
Give them a little bit of abackground and then I'm sure
(00:22):
we'll dive into some great stuff.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Going way back early in my career I had the
opportunity to do turnarounds inthe media, so I worked in radio
, tv and print and that led tothen jumping into healthcare and
I ended up going intohealthcare and doing some
turnarounds of hospitals andthen healthcare systems and one
of those became one of thelargest in the country.
It was under $1 billion when Iwas brought there and within
(00:46):
three years we grew to $10billion with a B and that was
UPMC Health System and thatenabled me to really sort of lay
the groundwork to establishmyself as a marketing thought
leader and someone that has donethe marketing side, the revenue
growth side, the pipelinegrowth side.
And after that I saw there wasparallels between education and
(01:06):
healthcare, that education wasabout 10 to 15 years behind
healthcare.
So I jumped in and helped growa university applying all this
stuff to healthcare.
Because both industries theultimate consumer doesn't buy,
the health insurance tends topay or the government pays for
both schooling and forhealthcare.
(01:28):
Parents pay, alumni pay,fundraisers pay over here,
insurers pay, the governmentpays.
So after that I then startedMass Solutions, my company,
which is a growth marketingconsultancy that also does
marketing, implementation,activation.
And after my first book, whichwas a good 10 years ago, I
(01:48):
decided my second book would befor the new audience.
So my first book, enrico, wasthe standard one.
For anybody that's probablymaybe over the age of 40.
That books were about 200 pagesand hardcover and all that
stuff.
And so for my second book Isaid I'm just going to take the
no bullshit process.
We built no bullshit marketing.
We have a lot of IP around.
No bullshit marketing.
(02:09):
I said we're going to take that.
I'm going to tell anecdotes andanalogies.
I'm going to practice what Ipreach.
I talk about how anecdotes andanalogies are what the science
proves we remember.
And I said I'm going to do abook in a hundred pages or less.
It ended up being like 104.
But a book in 100 pages or less, it ended up being like 104.
So that's the book no BullshitMarketing.
I do focus a lot on healthcare.
It's 17 contrarian ways toincrease referrals for
(02:31):
healthcare providers, and sothat's the book and that's the
background.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
It's cool how you get into it.
I always love the backstory.
There's always a passion orsomething that gets people to.
They always see you at the endfor what you've done.
They never see the journey andhow hard and how much work it
usually takes.
But there's some great stuff inthe book, like the systemic
referral systems that you talkabout and six strategic.
We're going to dive into thatbecause I'm going to learn a lot
on this.
With running chiropracticclinics and teaching and
(02:58):
coaching and consultingchiropractors and people in the
health care facility on how togrow and market.
Referral marketing is thepinnacle.
It's the foundation to allmarketing.
One, it's free.
Two, it's organic.
Three, it's trustworthy.
Many different reasons why youwant to start on a solid
referral base and then build upfrom there.
(03:18):
But yeah, tell us a littleabout that.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Well, it starts off with knowing that there are six
target markets, six right fittarget markets that matter for
any company, across business tobusiness or business to consumer
.
There's these six right fittarget markets that then you
have to segment for yourspecific scenario, and those six
right fit target markets areoften not realized.
(03:41):
So a couple of them areneglected.
And the first one's notneglected, it's current
customers.
Well, it's sort of neglectedbecause people actually probably
don't market enough to theirexisting customers.
The second target market isprospective customers.
That's where we spend a lot ofour time marketing.
The third one is currentemployees.
Got to market to them andmarket to them well, in the same
(04:02):
way that you market to clientsand customers and market to them
well, in the same way that youmarket to clients and customers.
The fourth one is prospectiveemployees.
But then it moves into thefifth one, which is current
referral sources or centers ofinfluence or raving fans, and
prospective referral sources orpeople you can make centers of
influence or make them ravingfans.
That's the start, at the crux ofall this.
(04:23):
That's what I learned fromdecades of doing this is what
makes bullshit marketing.
Is people not realizing twothings that there's these six
right fit target markets thatyou have to segment and drill
down based on your scenario.
And then you have to let thebehavioral science and the math
drive the creative art.
Those are the two majortakeaways that I've worked on
(04:45):
and what drives no bullshitmarketing as I see it, and what
we do for all of our clients.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Love it.
Yeah, and it sounds likethere's a strategy behind the
way you put one through six aswell.
It wasn't just random, correct.
It looks like one builds on theother as well it does.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That's a great point.
So what I found when I firststarted doing that first ever
turnaround, way back when I wasa kid, with two radio stations
that were ranked dead last outof 14 in the market, was that
current clients are what weneglect a little bit because we
actually don't tell our story tothem.
We think, oh, they like us, wedon't tell their story enough.
Then we fixate on theseprospective clients but we
(05:24):
forget those other four targetmarkets.
We really don't do a systematicway of doing it.
It's not that we forgetcompletely.
We kind of know we got to keepemployees happy.
We know we have to recruitpeople.
We know we got to get people torefer to us.
But we don't do it in the samesystematic fashion on Ricoh that
we do current and prospectiveclients or customers.
(05:46):
So that's how it all came about.
It all came about that way wasstart off just like everybody
else, focusing on prospectivenew customers or new clients,
and then I realized those otherfive were pretty significant and
started building a system tomake sure you could reach them
again and again and again, allto drive pipeline growth and
revenue growth.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, I think as soon as you say the word marketing,
people think perspectivemarketing.
They don't even think of theircurrent client base as being
marketed to.
There's no reason to market tothem.
They're repeat customers,they're coming back or whatever
it may be.
So dive into that a little bit.
How would you market to acurrent patient, a current
client, somebody that's beencoming in maybe often?
(06:26):
What does marketing even looklike to them?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yes.
So with current customers,current patients, let's stay in
the healthcare realm withchiropractic PT all those ones
that listen to your podcast.
In the healthcare situation wekind of do a half-assed way of
talking to our current patients.
We might include them in like anewsletter that we just kind of
do a half-assed way of talkingto our current patients.
We might include them in like anewsletter that we just kind of
force out and it's got way toomuch copy and way too many
(06:52):
things we're trying to cover.
Or we might maybe, if we'redoing really good, we maybe send
them a postcard around theirbirthday, you know, but really
when you take a look at thosecurrent patients, it's the
entire experience that you getfrom them and then you walk them
through that.
But you also repeatedly reachout and ask them their take and
this is the big thing I talkabout both quantitative, market
(07:14):
insights and research andqualitative.
Quantitative is you send outyour survey every you know.
Hopefully you use somethinglike you know where you're able
to get their feedback afterevery visit or every so many
visits, but then also talking tothem qualitatively, either on
the phone or calling them asideand ask them just a couple basic
(07:34):
questions.
What's the one reason why youfirst came here?
What's the main reason why youstill come here?
What's one thing that makes usunique?
What's one thing you'd changestill come here?
What's one thing that makes usunique?
What's one thing you'd change?
Those four questions of acurrent patient are going to
tell you so much to help youkeep them and get other ones.
And then you have to tell themthat you listened.
So you have to say in yournewsletter make it better, make
(07:56):
your email newsletter better andclearer and more concise, and
say to them we've been talkingto patients like you and we
learned three things.
First one was that you reallylove this and we're going to
keep doing that.
The second one is you said wecould probably be better at this
and we're doing X and Y to getbetter at that.
Third one is you said why don'tyou do this?
And we looked into that.
And if you can do it, you sayhere's what we're going to do,
(08:19):
and if you can't, you say why.
So now, these trends that youheard again and again and again,
they're real.
If you heard them four or five,six times, when you talk to 15
patients, they're real.
That qualitative research isreal.
You now come back and typicallyit'll be about three things you
find out.
And one you kind of already doand they told you they really
(08:39):
liked it.
The other, you learned and youstarted doing.
The third one you either can,can't do or you're starting to
do.
Then you go back and tell themand what that makes them think
is whoa, they listened to me.
That makes them proud of beingthat person.
That makes them more apt togive you a testimonial.
That makes them more apt togive you a five-star review.
That's because you asked themquestions and listened and then
(09:02):
showed that you listened.
Most people do a survey andnever do anything to tell Sound
familiar out there listeners.
You sent out the thing, you gotall the thing back and you
never went back and told anybodyyou did anything with it.
That doesn't make them want tofill that out.
That doesn't make them want togive you a five-star review.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
No, you're right.
We focus so much about moderntechnology and how to reach our
patients and our prospectiveclients as well, and it's really
moving towards getting intotheir text messages, getting
into their phones, getting intoright, getting as close to in
front of their face as youpossibly can especially when
(09:42):
you're working like majorhospital chain businesses like
yours that you were helped.
I mean, they really need to bepresent and whenever an
emergency happens, that peoplethink of them first.
For us, we need to do that aswell as solopreneurs or solo
locations.
But what are some challengestoday that are different than
maybe from 2000, that are maybemore competitive, or things that
we should be focusing on to getthat, I guess, preemptive,
(10:04):
preemptive feeling in thecommunity and in our areas so
that we can help more people inthat same way and then get into
this type of marketing once weget in contact with them.
I think it's the contact, it'sthat friction to get their
information either an email or aphone number, whatever it may
be.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Well, I think the first thing, the reason I did
this, the reason I started MassSolutions, was my dad had a
small business when I grew upand as I got into my career, I
thought, wow, imagine what wecould have done if I were able
to go back in time and help mydad market his business.
So that and many other reasonsmade me passionate about
starting Mass Solutions and Iwanted any company, regardless
(10:39):
of size or industry, to be ableto apply the same theories and
tactics and approaches that Isaw work at a multi-billion
dollar company and otherhundreds of millions of dollar a
year companies.
And so that's my first point isto everyone listening is the
UPMCs of the world are great.
There's no doubt that's a greatorganization.
However, we had to battle youguys and you don't realize that
(11:02):
that there was manyconversations like, oh, this
physical therapy place has eightlocations and they're kicking
our ass, okay, so you have torealize that you have a quality
opportunity, that you have to.
You have to take that story andtell that against the biggies
and be able to talk about thatand the reason this system works
(11:23):
for any size companies.
I just described you qualitativeresearch with four questions
and those four questions can beasked by anybody at your company
and they have to do somethingreally hard two things that are
really hard.
When you ask the questions, youready, you have to shut up and
listen.
That's hard for all of us, butif you ask those four questions
(11:46):
I told you to and you justlisten, and then you track it,
you just put in your phone.
Talk to Dave Mastovich, he saidthis.
Talk to Pete Harris.
He said that it doesn't have tobe any.
Look, you're doing this foryourself.
There's no grade.
You don't get a C because youdidn't put it in a spreadsheet.
Do whatever you want with it,but just make sure you track it,
(12:08):
paper and pencil in a spiritwhatever you want, because you
will see by the third person youdo it the third, I guarantee it
.
Anybody can call me.
If it doesn't happen by thethird person, you'll get at
least one trend that all threeof those people said.
That's how real this stuff is.
So the things that I talk aboutin my book are things that can
be done by a person that runsone chiropractic location.
(12:28):
A person one chiropracticlocation.
A person has eight chiropracticlocations.
A person has four physicaltherapy centers.
Okay Now, yes, when you have 20, you do have more resources,
you have more budget.
When you have a hundred, youhave more budget.
But I'm saying you can applythis.
Anybody listening can applythis.
Anybody listening can takethose six target markets.
Anybody listening can do thatmarket research.
Anybody listening can go backand tell their patients what
(12:50):
they heard yes, no, I love it.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
That makes sense.
Start there, because if it'sanything anyone has, it's
listening, it's they have apatient base.
So, right there, you have asource, you have a pool, you can
get information from right offthe bat.
So ask those four questions andgo from there.
Great, so that's internal.
Uh, what about like things likeemployee employee engagement?
You said there's things thatanyone can ask for questions.
(13:14):
Anyone in your business can askhow do we get our employees
engaged in the marketing process, both internal and for external
?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
The first is those very same questions same four
can be asked to employees andwill bring you value.
Why did you start working here?
Why do you stay Now?
You're going to be frightenedwhen you do this.
Why'd you start working here?
Wow, it's 10 minutes closerthan the last place I was.
Oh geez, here I thought we weregood.
Same thing happens to me.
(13:43):
Don't believe me.
And then the second one is whydo you stay here?
Be prepared.
It might be the benefits.
It might be it's close to myhouse.
It might be my boss is great.
It might be I don't know.
I need a raise.
Whatever, ask them that,qualitatively, you've got seven
employees.
Ask each of them the same fourquestions.
What's one thing you've changed?
(14:04):
I want to get more money.
Okay, beyond that, we all wantmore money.
Beyond that, you just got to beprepared to ask these four
questions.
What's one thing you've changed?
Another thing you can throw inis another way.
You can just throw in and saywhat's one word you'd use to
describe the company?
Get your employees to answerthat, because that'll bring you
a lot of value about how theysee you and what they see as
your strength.
So that alone will help.
(14:24):
And then you come back and youtell them in an all hands-on
meeting.
You say over the last month weverbally talked to all of you to
gather some qualitativeinsights and we heard a couple
of trends.
We heard A, we heard B, weheard C and we heard D.
We're going to keep doing A.
(14:45):
You told us to try to tweak B.
You gave us this great ideaabout C.
Now D you guys talked about too.
I want you to know weresearched that it's probably
not going to work out.
For this reason, you just gotinstant credibility.
We told them a bunch of stuff.
They agreed with two of them.
The third one they're going totry to do.
Fourth one they told us whythey can't.
Unless the person's just anangry person that we can't worry
(15:06):
about, they're going to go.
That's fair.
They looked into it and saidthey can't do it.
You just got instantcredibility with your employees.
You now are going to help withretention and you learn from
them.
So those same questions workfor employees too.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
It's funny how it's engagement.
It's both from your clients,your patients, your employees.
Engaging them is what bringsthe best out of each of them and
then you get the benefitsbecause you can put that into
your business and amplify thatstuff, which is great.
Another thing I work with myclients on and we'll be wrapping
up soon.
(15:39):
But if there's anythingimportant you want to dive into,
cut me off.
But measuring Another thingthat's in your book as well
measuring not just the successes, but measuring marketing.
I find that really tough.
I just had a great conversationthis morning with programmatic
(16:00):
marketing, which is a newerrealm for chiropractors and
things like this about gettinginto geotagging and being on a
commercial a 15-second or30-second commercial in between
Netflix or YouTube or whateverit is, whatever they're watching
.
That's kind of new.
It's nice that you cangeotarget it.
Maybe for you in a hospitalthat made sense.
Commercials were perfect.
Television and radio made sense.
You blasted over a larger areaFor a place with four locations
or one location they have a verysmall thing.
(16:21):
So that's the cool thing abouttechnology.
But it got me thinking that Iasked them a question and it
made me think it was how do Igauge the success?
I'm just starting to figure outGoogle.
I've been doing it for 20 yearsand I'm just starting to figure
out the metrics and truly whatbudget should work and cost per
click and the lead conversion onthat.
What is this new realm ofmarketing?
(16:42):
But how do you measure thisstatistically to know what's
working or not?
Because most providers andentrepreneurs are just like
dollar in, dollar out, newpatient in marketing, dollar out
and that's it.
They don't really think abouteverything that goes in between.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Well, the first thing I want to add to something on
the last question was your datais gold, any data that you have.
So the data of your patients isgold.
I understand HIPAA.
I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that the name, theage, the zip code enables you to
look at that and think andyou're going to see the 80-20
principle.
In effect, the 80-20 principleworks with everything in our
(17:17):
lives the clothes we wear if welook in our closet, 20% of our
clothes are worn 80% of the time.
The foods we eat 20% of thefoods we eat are eaten 80% of
the time.
The same thing happens withyour practices 80% of your
patients will come from 20% ofwhatever activity.
So, for instance, if you aregetting referrals, if you're a
(17:39):
physical therapy place that getsreferrals, or a surgeon that
gets referrals, or anybody outthere that gets another provider
to refer to them, 80% of thatreferrals will come from 20% of
those referral sources, thoseproviders.
So your data you have to lookat that, you have to start
tracking that.
So if you are getting referrals, you have to start tracking
that, because 80% of them willcome from 20%.
(18:02):
So you then know I want to talkto more people that look like
this 20%.
I'm not going to completelyignore the other 80%.
I'm going to look at thesepeople that look like the 20%
that refer the most.
I'm going to go out to reachthem.
So that's the first thing thatI want to make sure is your own
data is good, both on thereferral side and the patient
side.
So that's one way.
(18:23):
The second thing is take thatmore broad perspective and say I
want to look at my customeracquisition cost or my patient
acquisition cost, and I willstress perfect is the enemy of
good.
You want to start somewhere.
It's your practice, it's yourdata.
There is no grade.
As I said earlier.
You don't get a B, a C or a Dor you don't even get an A.
(18:44):
You do what's best for you andyou learn, so you do.
You've done that witheverything else at your practice
your physical therapy place,your chiropractor.
You've learned on the fly.
The same as with this.
So you go and say I want to tryto guesstimate my patient
acquisition cost, because if Ican get my patient acquisition
cost, I can then guesstimate mylifetime patient value.
Those are both very importantif you're not doing that.
(19:06):
But people get hung up on tryingto be perfect when it's.
Just take the expenses that youhave that go towards sales
marketing to get the customers,and then look at how many new
ones you got.
You think you got from year oneto year two and then divide
those and you've got a roughpatient acquisition cost,
lifetime value.
Go and see how long it is untilsomeone doesn't come anymore.
(19:29):
Just try to play with the dataa little bit.
Don't perfect, examine good.
You probably already know this.
You probably already know thatit might be a year and a half
that someone tends to come, ormaybe they remain five years.
They come for a year.
They don't come for six months.
Tends to come, or maybe theyremain five years.
They come for a year, theydon't come for six months and
they come once or twice a yearin chiropractic.
You know these kinds of things.
Don't obsess over perfect.
(19:51):
Now, as you gather more data, Iwant you to be more stringent
with the actual specifics.
But start out figuring that out, because then you can say it
costs me roughly two grand toget a new patient, but the
lifetime value is 3,700.
That's when it's good.
If it costs you two grand andthe lifetime value is two grand,
(20:11):
stop.
That's not a sustainablebusiness.
But if it gets you 10 grand andyou only put in one grand,
don't think you stick your chestout.
10 to one ratio is not goodeither.
That means you're leavingmarket share on the table.
If you're getting 10 grand andyou're only spending a thousand
to get a 10 grand person, youought to spend two or 3,000 and
(20:32):
get more of them, and so you'llactually get more patients and
more market share, which, in thelong run, is going to matter
because of your margin.
So those are some ways that Ithink you can look at KPIs that
work.
So get patient acquisitioncosts and lifetime patient value
and the ratio of those two.
That's pretty powerful and,again, perfect is the enemy of
good.
Don't worry about the CFOranking you or your accountant
(20:56):
to tell you that's wrong.
You're off by eight bucks.
We're just starting out tryingto get something here, guys.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, I love your numbers and I love where you
come from, because you just blewthe socks off of half the
listeners because you saidsomething like two grand to make
3700.
Even if you shave a zero offthat, you got the chiropractor
shaking in their boots like I'mgonna spend 200 to get 370 and
they and they scratch theirheads like that.
That's a waste of time.
(21:22):
Yeah, typically don't.
They don't understand themarketing on this.
So, even though they figure outit costs $110 on a Google
client or to get them in thedoor or whatever, they're
looking at their case valueaverages, which could be
anywhere between $1,000 and$3,000 for most chiropractors,
and that's still so.
They're looking at $100 to make$2,000.
And then when they try andapply other avenues, they
(21:45):
realize, oh, nothing works.
It's because your budget is waytoo low.
It's way you're not getting thereach that you need to.
But that's a whole differentpodcast for another time.
I know that.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I'll come back.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Great, yeah, great, great post there.
What else are we missing fromthe book?
I mean you got.
I mean we can talk all dayabout the book.
But I asked you a little bitabout the future.
I mean, where do you thinkthings are going?
But anything you want to closeoff from you, take the rest of
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
It's all yours.
I'm going to give a couple ofthings.
The first is and this one mightI don't know how your listeners
will do I think you want to seeand hear what customers see and
hear.
So I told you about how to hearyou ask questions, be quiet and
listen.
But I would challenge you to uh, get some mystery shoppers.
(22:37):
I don't know if anybody's doingthat in chiropractic much, but
we've done it for senior livingquite a bit and I was one of the
first to do this and I wasreally a challenge.
So 20 or so years ago I didthis in health systems and it
was so hard because you had to,like, fake the person's
prescription and you had to havedoctors in on it and stuff, so
you couldn't do hundreds of them.
But if you get someone whocomes into a chiropractic office
(23:00):
or a physical therapy locationand you were able to hire them
as a mystery shopper and youbrought them in, you don't need
to do a ton of them.
You can do three and you willbe overwhelmed and amazed both
good and bad at what they comeback and tell you, because they
will tell you their experiencefrom the time they tried to book
appointment online, had a phonecall what they saw when they
(23:23):
walked in the door, what theysaw when they were taken to the
exam room, how they were exited,and it's all stuff that you
think you know but you're nothearing what they're thinking.
They'll tell you and you mightnot agree with it, but it's
perception.
I was telling someone today whata client misperceived about
what we did and I said it sucksand it's unfair, but that's how
(23:46):
the client perceived us andthat's not good for my solutions
and I have to own that.
And so I have to go talk to myteam.
We as the team have to go fixthat and let the client know
because I disagree.
It's an unfair misperception.
Now there's other times it's afair perception.
I go, oh shit, we're not doingwhat we should.
That's what you're going tolearn with mystery shopping.
(24:06):
So see and hear what thecustomer sees and hears.
The hearing is through theasking the questions and
tracking it and listening, andthe seeing is getting some
mystery shopping.
And then the third thing Iwould add to close is video,
video, video.
You got to be doing video.
If you're not doing video insome way, shape or form, you've
(24:27):
got to be doing video.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, I've been repeating that repetitively.
People want to see what theexperience is going to feel like
, or what it's going to looklike right, or what they're
walking into for sure Hospitals,chiropractic clinics, I mean.
They want to make sure they'reafraid it's medicine, it's
chiropractic, I mean, it'sphysical medicine, whatever it
is.
They're afraid of what's goingto come.
That's the thing, and it itshows them the inside and it may
(24:51):
enlighten newer people to thepossibilities of things they
didn't even know about.
Like, wow, they can do that.
I didn't know they could dothat.
So video is totally, uh,totally came.
With all the new apps and stuff, you can shoot video and have
it out.
This podcast will be up andgoing in about six minutes.
It's just boom.
Yeah, with all this stuff.
That's great, man, this isawesome.
Anything else you want to leavethem with, or do we cover all
the bases?
(25:11):
Where can they reach out to youbesides?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
you buying the book.
Yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent ways.
So masssolutionsbiz and it'sM-A-S-S-O-L-U-T-I-O-N-S.
Dot biz.
We get you more biz and that'sthe company website.
Mine is daveatmassolutionsbizand I'll gladly talk to anybody.
Anybody that emails me and asksI'll sign a book for them.
(25:38):
You know anybody that mentionsthe podcast in the email and
that's the website.
You can hit me up on LinkedIn.
Have a ton of connections andfollowers and I'm posting pretty
regularly on LinkedIn.
Happy to talk to anybody.
Get the book on Amazon, barnesand Noble, wherever.
It's a no bullshit marketing,dave Mastovich.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Pretty simple.
Thank you so much for your time.
Appreciate it.
Thank you Great.
Take care.
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