November 22, 2024 • 38 mins
From trauma and incarceration to leading a transformative organization, Sue Polston's journey is nothing short of inspiring. In our latest episode of Mental Health Matters, we sit down with the Executive Director of Sunrise Community for Recovery and Wellness, to explore how her personal challenges have shaped her as a leader of their peer support network. Sue's story is a powerful testament to resilience and the potential of peer support in mental health care. By sharing her lived experiences, Sue highlights the undeniable value of peer support, often overlooked and underfunded, yet crucial in empowering others on their recovery journeys.
Our conversation also delves into the systemic issues plaguing mental health care, such as the disconnect between government initiatives and the palpable needs of disenfranchised communities. Sue candidly discusses the hurdles nonprofits face, from resource constraints to the necessity of a continuous, long-term approach in treatment and recovery. Her rise from a volunteer role to executive director showcases the significance of community, passion, and perseverance in both personal and professional arenas.
Finally, we shine a light on the critical shortage of therapists, long waitlists, and the overwhelming caseloads impacting mental health professionals. Sue emphasizes the need for better compensation and support for these unsung heroes, whose work is vital yet often undervalued. Join us as we express our gratitude to Sue for her invaluable insights and invite you to tune in to future episodes for more compelling discussions on mental health and recovery.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello folks, welcome once again to Mental Health
Matters.
On WPVM 1037, the Voice ofAsheville, I'm Todd Weatherly,
your host, therapeuticconsultant and behavioral health
professional.
I have with me today atremendous resource in our
community.
I'm so glad that she agreed tobe on the show today and it's
somebody that has been helpingus in this after disaster period
(00:24):
we've been experiencing inwestern North Carolina.
I'm joined today by Sue Polston.
Sue serves as the ExecutiveDirector of Sunrise Community
for Recovery and Wellness righthere in downtown Asheville, a
nonprofit based in western NorthCarolina and dedicated to
fostering whole-person wellness.
Sunrise's mission is creatingcommunity through shared live
(00:46):
experience focused on wholeperson wellness through
education, resource navigationand authentic peer support for
all, which is we have verysimilar roles.
We'll talk about that as we getit down to it, but Sue herself
is a certified peer supportspecialist at CPSS.
Here in North Carolina,everybody has a little bit of a
title for it, but we call it aCPSS.
She brings her own livedexperience to her role, having
(01:10):
overcome significant challengesrelated to trauma.
Her journey included challengeswith mental health, substance
use, incarceration, unhealthyrelationships, including
domestic violence, homelessnessand the loss of her children.
Homelessness and the loss ofher children.
Sue's resilience and commitmentto healing over the last decade
, plus what is what inspires herto her leadership, and she
works to empower others to builda supportive and inclusive
(01:31):
community.
Sue, thanks so much for beingon the show.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Great Thanks for having me.
I really appreciate theopportunity.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Absolutely Well, you know we were talking, we were
discussing a little bit.
It's just, I know a lot offolks who are CPSS folks.
They're Certified Peer SupportSpecialists.
We probably know a lot of thesame, some of the same folks.
And so and some of the samefolks that come around and are
working with you guys over atSunrise and now you're down in
(02:02):
West Asheville right now.
Is that right?
Is that your office?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
We're in East Asheville now.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Oh, you're in East Asheville now.
Okay, I've got to catch up here.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, sorry, we've done some moving.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
For all different reasons, mostly not of our own.
Either we've grown fast andneeded a bigger space or
stigmatism.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Reared its ugly head.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, reared its ugly head and we were kind of forced
out of a couple of locations.
We are fortunate to have someamazing property owners and
property managers that wanted ushere and love us here.
And we are on Tonal Road, rightnext to IHOP and right next to
Compass Point Village.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
We're right in the middle at the old mattress man,
our mattress man on Tonal Road,right next to IHOP and right
next to Compass Point Village.
We're right in the middle atthe old mattress man or mattress
.
Oh, right, right, so it's stillnot that far from downtown,
like it's really kind of walkingdistance If you carry your own
horn to go through the bridge,right, yeah, exactly.
(03:19):
Well, you know, I I'm I'malways curious because I don't
think that, as evidenced by yourNIMBYs, not my backyard people,
um, that are not, that are nottolerant, don't understand um
kind of treatment.
There's community-basedtreatment and I work in the
private pay-based treatmentindustry where people can afford
to pay for what I would callappropriate and substantive care
.
Otherwise, you're kind oftrying to figure out the system,
(03:40):
trying to figure out where youcan get help.
Oftentimes that help is notenough.
There's the term the system isbroken is used very often.
I would say the system wasnever truly functional, so I
don't know from what state itwas actually broken.
It's never been something thatwas a reliable resource in the
(04:01):
first place, which kind ofpoints at the nature of mental
health care in our country,which is stigmatized out of
sight, out of mind, is kind ofthe approach.
If you're not, you know, ifyou're not wielding a gun or a
knife trying to hurt yourself orsomeone else and are basically
(04:22):
not causing trouble for thepublic in some way, then your
mental health must be fine andwe don't really care.
That's kind of where I would saythat that's roughly our
society's take on mental health.
That's how we treat it in thiscountry, and I think that part
(04:45):
of that is how peer supportspecialists came about, that
there was this tremendousresource, one that wasn't
necessarily, like master's,trained or educated, wasn't
necessarily a licensed therapist, but was definitely a person
who had lived experience, knewhow to support people having a
lived experience, knew how tosupport people having a lived
(05:05):
experience.
And you know the CPSS system,like the certification system,
came about and probably in mymind you I would like to hear
your thoughts about this it'sstill a little bit underutilized
and underfunded, but is atremendous resource where many
gaps occur.
So if you, if you're willing,like, tell us a little bit about
how you, how you got to therole Like part of that's your
(05:27):
lived experience, part of that'sbecoming a certified peer
support specialist.
Tell us a little bit of yourstory.
I'd like to hear it, um cause Ithink people need to hear those
things.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, so I actually um, come from a um, a long time
of incarceration, mental health,substance use, crack was my
drug of choice and it had medoing things, took me places.
I didn't want to go Like it.
(05:56):
Just it really took over mylife.
The substance use part, andwhen I say about 12 to 15 years
of in and out of activeaddiction, in and out of
different treatments that wasavailable, or here, 12 step, is
the only way.
You need a sponsor.
You need to go to thirdmeetings like this was it, this
(06:19):
was, and when I wasn't able tosucceed, I failed, right and so
they were barely addressing themental health stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
That was.
That was it.
I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I had no idea for a long time that I need that.
Mental health was the problem.
Right was was the four.
I just thought like, oh, I justhappen to try crack and like it
a lot.
And now look at me, you know,never mind, nevermind the court
Things are great, so I startedsmoking crack.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Never.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Right.
So it wasn't until it's been 11and a half years ago was the
last time I entered BuncombeCounty Jail or any facility with
a criminal charge.
And I was at the point where Iknew like I just knew that if I
(07:09):
didn't change everything, like Iwould just continue to keep
coming back, I was 36 in jailone more time, and I was looking
at a significant for me at atthat time it was like two and a
half years worth of time and Ithought, if I, if I don't do
something different, Idefinitely I'm gonna keep coming
(07:33):
back and or die right.
And so I, at that point, I guessI took all the little seeds
that had been planted over those12 to 15 years you know, like a
gratitude list, killing people,making amends, like just all
(07:54):
the little seeds that I'd pickedup and I started to implement
them and realized that the coreof all this was my mental health
.
And if I did not address mymental health at the same time I
was addressing substances, if Idid not address my mental
health at the same time I wasaddressing substances, nothing
was going to change.
Because for so many years and Idid it so good too I would get
to the place where I was able tostop using substances, usually
(08:15):
because I was in jail.
I would get out, I'd have agood mindset, but eventually I
would lead right back to thesubstance.
The stressors of life that, comeyou know, yeah, like you know,
one of my big triggers of backin the day is getting
overwhelmed, like a young 20year old like I would walk in
circles, unable to makedecisions, basic decisions, you
(08:37):
know, and I didn't know that I'm47 now, but I didn't know that
then.
But so, yeah, being able to tonow sit in jail 11 and a half
years ago, realize I needed todo everything differently, and
that also meant I needed to lookat my mental health, and so I
was fortunate to have been giventhe opportunity to get in and
(09:01):
be part of the Buncombe CountyDrug Treat court.
Um, and so I.
I was again, I don't know how Iwas, uh, lucky enough to gain
access to important life-savingservices because not everybody
can um, but I did and I got inthere, I graduated, I've I've
(09:24):
done all the.
you know I was doing all thethings prior to that.
Let me back up.
I was in treatment.
So I was in jail for four and ahalf months.
Drug court said we want you indrug court, but you need
long-term treatment.
So they sent me to a 90 daytreatment facility.
While I was there, it was it'sin black mountain, it's through
the, the prison system.
But while I was there, my, mycounselor, she said, hey, what
(09:48):
about a peer support specialist?
And I was like, hey, I don'teven know what that is.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
You know, like you know.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
And so she pulled it up and she was like it's a
person with lived experiencewho's overcoming you know, and
I'm like, oh my God.
I just lit up on the insideLike I knew in that moment that
was what my goal and that's whatI wanted to do Prior to that.
I always wanted to be asubstance use counselor.
I could never keep my stufftogether long enough to be able
(10:16):
to accomplish that goal.
But when I found out about this, the peer support and like
being just true to who you areand your record your record is
now your resume, like all ofthat was just like heck yeah,
like I can't believe this isreally cause.
Prior to this I had I went toschool and I'm a hairdresser.
(10:39):
I'm a licensed hairdresser, youknow, I had skills and things
to do, but like I have arthritisand so like it kind of all
lined up to where I no longerhad to like physically work, but
then do this peer support stuff.
So I was like heck yeah, let'sdo it.
Get out um do the drug courtthing, the recovery housing, um
all the things, um 12-stepmeetings, sponsor, um emdr.
(11:02):
I did do that yeah and I can'tsay for sure if that's what you
know helped or didn't help.
But here I am, almost 12 yearslater, without um using
substances again.
So I'm going to take it asthere's no silver bullet, right
they all come together to workwith one another in some fashion
(11:23):
.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
You you know in that case you know what you're saying
is it was enough to get you,get you to the place where you
wanted to be and get you therole you're in now.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, so I did.
I became the certified peersupport specialist.
I started at one of our localcommunity mental health agencies
as a peer that led groups andwent on activity and did
activities with the psychosocialrehabilitative group TSR.
(11:56):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, part of the ACT team, that's right.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, and so I did that for a couple of years.
And then there was, like thisnew let me back up when I was in
my peer support training therewas.
They called them lunch andlearns and individuals would
come in and tell us about theprograms of which peers were
utilized.
One of them was kevin mahoney ohyeah he was telling us all
(12:25):
about sunrise and this was avolunteer peer support uh
organization and I was just like.
I looked at my friend, I waslike we're gonna have to get to
know this guy.
He's like the peer support God.
So fast forward, sunrisebecomes an actual entity and
organization and opened itsdoors in 2016.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
It was a fire starter that Kevin.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yes, yes, I love Kevin he.
So the doors opened in 2016.
I became a volunteer and didsome work at AHOPE on the
weekends through Sunrise as avolunteer.
Well, they had a position openand I was like, oh my God, let
me try.
Like full of fear of change andeverything, but let me just try
(13:11):
this.
Just aligned with where I wasmost passionate, right, and so I
got the job.
It was a program coordinator.
Where I was most passionate,right, and so I got the job.
It was a program coordinator.
I was one of two full-timeemployees, so it was me, my
friend Gina and then Kevin for10 hours a week.
(13:33):
As he continued to work over atRHA on the act team.
So yeah, so that's how itstarted January of 2017.
I took on a full-time withSunrise.
Like I said, I was a programcoordinator.
I then became the respite teamlead, Then I became an
operations director and thenKevin had some health issues
going on.
I had to take a step back andthen I went into his role as the
(13:55):
executive director and that wasback in 2019.
So, yeah, yeah.
So back in 2019, we actuallythen grew.
So we grew a little bit, grew alittle bit.
You know, there's two of uswhen I started, then there was
five of us a year later and nowthere's 54 of us.
Wow, 54.
(14:16):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
That's really great.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yes, we got to open the door on a $50,000 grant that
was given to us to uh as a RCOpass through.
So RCO is a recovery communityorganization.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
And so we got the RCC funding through an entity out.
Uh, out East we get to, we holdthat program program.
Now we give out thepass-through funding for other
rccs.
So it's a full circle uh forthe state or for the area, like
well from uh, the goal is forthe whole state, but I learned
(14:52):
the hard way that we do not wantto grow faster than we can yeah
, yeah, then we have thecapacity to get painful, can it?
oh gosh, oh we.
Uh, I'm alive, and breathing,still.
So I made it well done yeah um,but yeah, so uh, from wilkes
and charlotte charlotte all theway to the koala boundary, we
(15:14):
cover all those counties, okayyeah, and when you say 54 they
all serve western north carolina, or they?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
are they All the way to the Koala boundary?
We cover all those counties,okay, yeah, and when you say 54,
they all serve Western NorthCarolina, or are they?
Are they?
You know, mostly Asheville,mostly Asheville, right?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Our home base is on total road.
That's our main hub, and thenwe have nine other Nine or 10
other programs Sorry, we've hadsome ins and outs right now
going on um, that mostly arehome-based.
Out of ashville we have acouple of programs that are well
(15:47):
.
We have uh, three, four staffout in cherokee.
So, on the reservation, okay yep, we have a koala boundaries and
band of cherokee re-entryprogram and we we have a drop in
center that we're looking toopen the doors any, any moment.
So we have duplicated what wehave here, right On the boundary
, for our native folks.
(16:08):
And then we have another ARCprogram that is in four rural
counties, which is like Polk,rutherford, mcdowell and forget.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Oh yeah, haywood right.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
No God, it's Polk Rutherford McDowell.
I might have to look it up now.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Kryon's Polk, Rutherford, McDowell, All the
South Carolina line countiesyeah, here we go Cleveland.
Cleveland County.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
There we go, that's it and so we're in those
counties too, our staff are inthose counties.
The other piece where, like inCharlotte and Wilkes, the other
RCCs that are, that we providetechnical assistance and pass
through funding to.
They're not our employees butwe partner with and and you know
(17:10):
and stuff.
But right.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah well, and so you got some.
You got some pass-throughfunding.
Is that?
Does that funding repeat everyyear?
Do you give them your outcomesand show what you've been doing
and then, theoretically, youmight get that money back again
next year?
Is that true?
You?
Are you fundraising for whatnext year looks like?
We don't.
You're right.
I mean, you know thelegislation you don't know right
(17:33):
.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
So we're grant chasers.
We are like 90 somethingpercent grant funded with a
touch of donations, yeah Right.
And so every year it's alwaysup for bid whether we're going
to get funding or not.
That is that we've been in theright places at the right times
(17:59):
with the right funding, withbetween COVID funding and the
additional substance use blockgrant funds and all that, we've
just been in a line and beenable to like capture.
But also because of the workthat our team does right, like
we.
We do really great work and wedo provide the outcomes above
and beyond.
And so, in my opinion, thestate.
(18:20):
So these are federal.
Our biggest grant is our RCOthat provides the pass through
and that is substance use blockgrant funds.
So that is given to the stateand then we contract with the
state for that, with the statefor that when I first.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
That was my very first executive director.
Grant submission was for thisproject.
Felt good to get it boarded,didn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, that was so.
That was 2019.
And we got $375,000 and we werestinking rich Like we were like
like gonna expand and like wehad this past year, and it's
still looking good for this nextfiscal year.
Um, it's at 2.9 million samethat's awesome yeah, same
(19:09):
funding, same all that um in 20,where are we at 24?
In j July of 2023, we did.
We got a pretty significantincrease.
It doubled what we, we wereworking and increasing every
year since 2019, you know alittle bit out of time, but two
years ago well, 2023's fiscalyear, I guess, I don't know they
(19:36):
were like we have more money,what do do you need?
And we gave them a big old wishlist and they gave us most of
what we asked for well, and itsounds like there was.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
You know there's a fairly sizable funding
initiative that happened at thestate level.
You know millions of dollarsthat were being spread out
through different you knoweither agencies or grant.
You know grant requests there'seven still some of that grant
stuff that's out there now togive agencies like yours money
to do the programming they do.
And you know it sounds likeyou've done really good things
(20:06):
with your money.
Is it enough Like?
Are you getting what you need?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I mean I think I know the answer to this question,
but the need is so significant Icouldn't even put a dollar
amount on it yeah like the yeah,we have significant amount of
fun.
Like.
Our total operating um annualbudget is estimated right now at
like 4.9 million um.
The need is beyond that.
(20:33):
Like if we doubled that, theneed still wouldn't be captured
like.
It meant yes, like for example,one of our programs is called a
housing program, but it's not.
It's not independent housing,it's recovery housing so
temporary housing, sober livingquasi sober living yeah yep, so,
(20:54):
um, that need is so and I justpick on that because it's one of
our little smaller program outof the bigger one and the need,
like our two peer navigatorsthat are over that program.
We have to check in with themconstantly, like to make sure
they're not getting overwhelmed.
(21:14):
And they're not, because theyhave to say no so many times and
it's like heartbreaking andthen they also just they're not
machines and they couldliterally just sit there and
hand out money, hand out moneyand do the thing you know like,
and it just would never beenough.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
My wife's the executive director of Evelyn
charity, so we have an idea ofwhat you're talking about.
So, we've been seeing a lot ofthe same thing.
You know we're just, you knowthere's no end of the need.
Yeah, and it's very challengingto kind of address the
(21:51):
community's need because theinfrastructure is not there and
the resources aren't there.
And you know it feels likeyou're you know as well, as well
funded as you might be for theprogramming you do, you still
feel like you're puttingband-aids on things that's it.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
That's it, and uh, we won't even backtrack.
You probably don't want to putthis I'm going to edit this out,
but I just want to say it outloud that whole shelter thing
that we did a few years ago,yeah, with the city, that was a
bunch of crap, band-aid, butanyway yeah, that is notorious
(22:21):
for the city and its approach toanything yeah, and its approach
to the disenfranchised, uh,people who are either homeless
or next to homelessness, likethe, the, the, what they put
towards addressing that need.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
It's like you know I, you know they'll, you know
they'll roll over for a newhotel, but they'll cut every
dollar when it comes toaddressing their own population
in need.
And I'd love to say that,helene, maybe have changed that
that so many people fell intoneed that they addressed that
(22:58):
they had to reconsider howthey're addressing that problem.
I just don't think they have.
I don't see any evidence thatthat's true so, yeah, I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
I feel like, again, this is totally off the record.
I feel like what they're doingright now is the same crap they
did then, is they was throwingthree hundred thousand dollars
at the problem, yeah, and thenhanding it to the mission now to
handle, and then to the mission.
At the end of the day, themission is the bad folks that
put them back on the street.
That's how it got handled withSunrise and the Ramada, right,
(23:29):
yes, so anyways, all right, letme rebalance.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Well, I mean, if you look at it from a, I mean, you
know is pbm, so we're okay,we're okay saying things that
are true, yeah, yeah, and youknow.
It's like it's regardless ofthe regardless of what you know
candidate you voted for, or whatyou know president was in power
or anything else.
This problem's been existingfor a very long time and hasn't
really changed.
We're talking about the lack ofinfrastructure to handle the
(23:59):
need.
And then we're talking aboutorganizing the entity like the
state or the county or the city,and they you know they've been
doing this for a very long timethey find a contractor and that
contractor can fulfill the needfor cheaper than they can do it
(24:21):
themselves.
So great, Pay a contractor, youknow, throw money at the
contractor makes our budget lookgood, and then whatever
problems exist is like I don'tknow, must be the contractor's
fault.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
And what you did is you had somebody who um, either
they were, they were um wantingto do something and of good
intent, and didn't realize whatthey were faced with.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
And I.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I think there's a lot of people in that run, small
nonprofits that find themselvesin that spot.
It's like I meant to do.
Good, my gosh, I had no ideaand it's really not enough.
Or you've got, you know, you'vegot larger corporate entities
that are running the numbers andyou know, taking Medicaid
billing and Medicaid dollars andthat sort of thing, and you
know their higher ups, theircorporates, are making plenty
(25:12):
but they're still not able totruly address the need because
the amount they allocate for onethey didn't allocate
appropriately and, two, theamount they allocate for the
number that they determined tobe the number of people is not
enough.
It's not.
Like you know, and I certainlyrun into you know, there are,
via health and RHA, folks that Ithink are wonderful, great
(25:33):
people.
I've run into them all the time.
But you know overall they arenot enough.
They they failed to supportpeople that need the support in
a substantive way, and I, youknow I've even got clients that
are.
You know they fortunatelythey're my clients have trust
(25:53):
funds and that they're able tokind of scoot by.
But people very quickly fallinto the gap, or they fall into
a hole or they fall back intocrisis or they fall back into
addiction because the supportthey're receiving is not enough.
What I know and what youprobably can affirm, you know,
working with individuals who,who have enough resources to go
(26:14):
through a treatment process, Itell my, I tell the people that
I talk to my clients I said,look, you're looking at two
years of treatment.
You're looking at residentialcare and then stepping down with
support, probably doing somePHP, iop, some kind of clinical
(26:35):
care support.
That person's going to have tohave groups and coaches and
support features and soberliving, and they're, you know,
you're looking at two yearsworth of this journey to even
feel like they can stand back ontheir feet again.
And then they've got to facethis.
Who am I now After this, aftera life altering series of events
(26:59):
, I could see that I'm talkingyour language.
You know it's like you know andif you, if you clock the time,
you know you can do it.
You can do it from start tofinish If you want.
We all know that recovery isnot a linear process and many
people do not do it from startto finish.
You know they, they take somesideways journeys.
(27:19):
Um, as one of my friends likesto say, I had to do some more
field research.
Yeah, um, and so you know I Ithink that you know met it.
I started off in the field in1994, so I I worked as a field
counselor to where I met my wife.
Um, I started off as a fieldcounselor working for a
(27:43):
wilderness program that wastaking inner city kids from
charlotte court, referred kids,you know, drugs and carjacking
and theft and you know going toget crack for mom, and like
those were my kids.
Um, and what happened was isthat we had a it was a nine to
12 month program, um, and thenMedicaid came in with managed
(28:06):
care and managed care startedputting treatment periods right
on, on on.
They took medical healthtreatment periods and put them
on behavioral health and so, youknow, a 12-month program turned
into a 90-day program.
Six-month program turned amonth-long program and all the
sudden, you had, you know, for aprogram that was designed to
(28:30):
work as a group support model.
You know, kids were there longenough to get stable, have a
culture, and you could rely onthem to help manage new group
members coming in.
It's like look, this is the waythis works, let's break you in,
but if nobody has, nobody's in,nobody has the culture and
nobody's stable enough.
(28:50):
You all you got is crisis allthe time.
Well, you're just chaos.
I mean it's chaos.
And so I really think thatthat's just one example of what
the world has done, the Medicaidfunding system has done with
all the community-based supportand hospitals.
(29:12):
You know, hospitals are likethree to seven days back on the
street.
Yeah, Little IOP.
I, as a person I'm sure, spentsome time in the hospital and
then got put on the street.
Do you think an IOP was goingto be enough?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
No, um, and just to clarify too uh, my, my mom, like
my mom, was always like youneed long-term treatment, you
need this, this and this, andI'll tell you that freaked me
out, actually the minutesomebody told me I needed to
stop for a year of my life, likeI was, like that's not for me.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Well, I tell people all the time.
I was like look the people thatyou see going through treatment
.
That is one of the bravestthings a human being will ever
do.
It's like tell you what youneed to go, stop everything
you've been doing.
And then you got to get a bunchof people standing around you
to tell you everything that'swrong and how you need to be
going right again and what youneed to do and kind of dig out
(30:11):
all your deepest secrets andyour traumas and your everything
else.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
It's like if you, if your response to that is an
absolute terror right I don'tknow who you are right um but to
look back now and to see, likewhen I got to that place where I
knew like I needed to dowhatever, anyone told me because
I no longer wanted to go backto that place where I knew like
I needed to do whatever anyonetold me because I no longer
wanted to go back to that, yeah,yeah then yeah, that two years
(30:34):
in drug court seemed perfectlyfine yeah, you know, so I don't
know everybody's recovering.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I mean, I think everybody makes like, yeah, your
recovery, you make it.
There's a time when you make achoice, like every person.
Until they make that choiceright, you can, you can string
them through care.
I think that people gettinghelp is still beneficial in some
way.
Maybe it doesn't take, but itleaves a seed.
Maybe that seed will grow intosomething that becomes them able
(31:01):
to make that choice.
Finally, I don't want topoo-poo people getting help,
even if it doesn't stick.
I think that your story I wishit doesn't stick, but, um, I
think that you are.
You know your story.
I wish it wasn't so common.
I wish it wasn't.
You know, it's like I thinkthere are people out in the
world who might hear your storyand think that it's you know, I
(31:24):
mean, there were times when itwas absolutely terrible for you
and terrifying for you and awfuland everything else.
And it's also incredibly commonand it's happening all the time
in so many places for hundredsof thousands of people
everywhere, millions of peopleacross the country, and people
don't understand it.
(31:44):
They don't understand that.
That's the experience thatpeople have.
It really does get that bad forpeople and and you know making
decisions and that bad forpeople and and you know making
decisions and getting help, butit you know you had to, you had
to dig your help out, like jailand drug court and be enforced,
and all this like there's aneasier way, it's a better way,
like oh yeah, do better, uh thanthis, I mean, and I always like
(32:09):
to beat myself, you know likethe harder, longer, most
toughest way possible.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I still drag myself through that sometimes yeah,
yeah, I feel you well.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
So if you were gonna, let me ask you this question if
you were gonna, if you hadeverything you ever wanted, what
?
What would the system look like?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
access for all, like literally, um, I don't know how,
I don't know, like all theintertwines to make it happen,
but what I see is there is a lotof professionals that are burnt
out, that aren't being takencare of, that aren't, you know,
(32:57):
mental health professionals andtherapists?
You know all the folks withinour big teams Like we're humans
too, and like we need thatself-care.
We're humans too, and like weneed that self-care.
We need to be taken care of andwe need to be our best self so
that we can give back and besupportive to the rest of the
(33:19):
humans that are out here.
You know suffering.
So I feel like that.
One thing I see happening isthat like there's not enough
therapists right now to createan act team to take on the
people that are on waiting listsfor months and months and
months.
there's people out here that arenot getting access to what they
need or even a piece of whatthey need because, there's
(33:43):
nobody to do the service so Idon't know if that goes back to
we need to as an organization,as an agency or whatever.
We need to treat our peoplebetter so that they're not burnt
out and they're able to show up.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Pay them appropriately too.
I mean, I've heard some of thehorror stories about how people
are compensated and having tomanage their own expenses and
drive their own car and pay fortheir own gas and everything
else.
Having to manage their ownexpenses and drive their own car
and pay for their own gas andeverything else.
It's just like people aregetting.
You know you can't, you can'tput somebody in what is
ultimately a very intense job,but then also nickel and dime
(34:19):
them.
You know what I mean?
Like it's at the very leastmake sure that they can pay
their bills at the end of theday and and get compensated
appropriately, like and havemoney for a massage, or have
money for health care Right orhealth care for that matter, you
know what I mean, the abilityto go to the doctor and pay the
out-of-pocket I mean you know,we're not just talking about,
(34:42):
we're not even talking aboutfrill.
We're talking about the basicshere, you know be able to pay
for the basics and also like geta massage or have their own
therapist yeah you know what Imean, because they're definitely
going to need that.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
So yeah, I do think that's a huge barrier right now,
because that's what I, what I'mlike seeing is happening um,
out out in the real world rightnow for our folks that are very
much struggling and need accessto more than just the
psychiatrist.
So you know, there's anindividual I'm thinking of right
(35:16):
now that has literally been ona wait list to get on that team
for six months or better andonly sees a psychiatrist right
now and only has a case managerwho's not helping really do
anything.
But is it that case manager'sfault?
That case manager probably has75 clients on their case.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, which is an unmanageable caseload yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So I'm like I don't know how or what the answer is
to get it to this way, but Ifeel like, if we are able to pay
and take care of our people,our professionals that are
helping other human beings liketo continue to show up the best
that they can like.
I don't know well take care ofthem.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Give them resources to help themselves so they feel
like they can return to the job.
Give them a manageable caseload.
Honestly right, give them a jobthat can that's doable yeah um
which means you're increasingcost.
But, like I, you're eitherpaying.
You're either paying it here.
You're paying to put people injail.
That's what you're doing.
I mean, we know, we know thecomparative figures, we know
(36:23):
what it comes down to.
It's like you're paying moremoney, like it is now.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Or they end up in Broughton or they end up dead
because they weren't respondedto appropriately or you know,
yeah, absolutely.
I know the stories, I knowthey're too many and too
frequent.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
But you know it's funny because I ask people that
question and a lot of timeswhere they go to is the people
who need care and how theyshould be receiving it and what
kind and nature and how much.
But your response, I think, iscool.
I mean it's different becausesome of the nature of where you
are, but it's like part of whatwe need to do is take care of
our own.
Part of this job is also makingsure these people who are
(37:03):
providing care feel like they'rebeing cared for, feel like they
can take care of themselves,and if they can't do that, they
just they just burn out.
you know, we just burn them outand then somebody new comes in
and um, you never get a realwork culture that allows you
know a super experienced personwho's been there for years and
years and years, like yourselfto be able to pass on the
(37:24):
lessons and pass on theknowledge and and give them that
boost in the arm that they need.
I'm just so glad, sue, thatyou're doing the work that
you're doing.
We're so proud of Sunrise as anagency here.
I'll have to get by and be morepresent over there.
I will do that absolutely.
I'll bring you lunch orsomething like that and maybe
(37:45):
give a little something for thevolunteers and the peer support
specialists.
That would be a great thing todo, but it has been great having
you on the show today.
Sue, thank you so much forjoining me.
This has been wpvm 1037, thevoice of ashville.
I'm todd weatherly, your host,and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Thanks, sue, take care yeah, thank you, thank you.
Hello folks, welcome once again to Mental Health
Matters.
On WPVM 1037, the Voice ofAsheville, I'm Todd Weatherly,
your host, therapeuticconsultant and behavioral health
professional.
I have with me today atremendous resource in our
community.
I'm so glad that she agreed tobe on the show today and it's
somebody that has been helpingus in this after disaster period
(00:24):
we've been experiencing inwestern North Carolina.
I'm joined today by Sue Polston.
Sue serves as the ExecutiveDirector of Sunrise Community
for Recovery and Wellness righthere in downtown Asheville, a
nonprofit based in western NorthCarolina and dedicated to
fostering whole-person wellness.
Sunrise's mission is creatingcommunity through shared live
(00:46):
experience focused on wholeperson wellness through
education, resource navigationand authentic peer support for
all, which is we have verysimilar roles.
We'll talk about that as we getit down to it, but Sue herself
is a certified peer supportspecialist at CPSS.
Here in North Carolina,everybody has a little bit of a
title for it, but we call it aCPSS.
She brings her own livedexperience to her role, having
(01:10):
overcome significant challengesrelated to trauma.
Her journey included challengeswith mental health, substance
use, incarceration, unhealthyrelationships, including
domestic violence, homelessnessand the loss of her children.
Homelessness and the loss ofher children.
Sue's resilience and commitmentto healing over the last decade
, plus what is what inspires herto her leadership, and she
works to empower others to builda supportive and inclusive
(01:31):
community.
Sue, thanks so much for beingon the show.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Great Thanks for having me.
I really appreciate theopportunity.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Absolutely Well, you know we were talking, we were
discussing a little bit.
It's just, I know a lot offolks who are CPSS folks.
They're Certified Peer SupportSpecialists.
We probably know a lot of thesame, some of the same folks.
And so and some of the samefolks that come around and are
working with you guys over atSunrise and now you're down in
(02:02):
West Asheville right now.
Is that right?
Is that your office?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
We're in East Asheville now.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Oh, you're in East Asheville now.
Okay, I've got to catch up here.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, sorry, we've done some moving.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
For all different reasons, mostly not of our own.
Either we've grown fast andneeded a bigger space or
stigmatism.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Reared its ugly head.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, reared its ugly head and we were kind of forced
out of a couple of locations.
We are fortunate to have someamazing property owners and
property managers that wanted ushere and love us here.
And we are on Tonal Road, rightnext to IHOP and right next to
Compass Point Village.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
We're right in the middle at the old mattress man,
our mattress man on Tonal Road,right next to IHOP and right
next to Compass Point Village.
We're right in the middle atthe old mattress man or mattress
.
Oh, right, right, so it's stillnot that far from downtown,
like it's really kind of walkingdistance If you carry your own
horn to go through the bridge,right, yeah, exactly.
(03:19):
Well, you know, I I'm I'malways curious because I don't
think that, as evidenced by yourNIMBYs, not my backyard people,
um, that are not, that are nottolerant, don't understand um
kind of treatment.
There's community-basedtreatment and I work in the
private pay-based treatmentindustry where people can afford
to pay for what I would callappropriate and substantive care
.
Otherwise, you're kind oftrying to figure out the system,
(03:40):
trying to figure out where youcan get help.
Oftentimes that help is notenough.
There's the term the system isbroken is used very often.
I would say the system wasnever truly functional, so I
don't know from what state itwas actually broken.
It's never been something thatwas a reliable resource in the
(04:01):
first place, which kind ofpoints at the nature of mental
health care in our country,which is stigmatized out of
sight, out of mind, is kind ofthe approach.
If you're not, you know, ifyou're not wielding a gun or a
knife trying to hurt yourself orsomeone else and are basically
(04:22):
not causing trouble for thepublic in some way, then your
mental health must be fine andwe don't really care.
That's kind of where I would saythat that's roughly our
society's take on mental health.
That's how we treat it in thiscountry, and I think that part
(04:45):
of that is how peer supportspecialists came about, that
there was this tremendousresource, one that wasn't
necessarily, like master's,trained or educated, wasn't
necessarily a licensed therapist, but was definitely a person
who had lived experience, knewhow to support people having a
lived experience, knew how tosupport people having a lived
(05:05):
experience.
And you know the CPSS system,like the certification system,
came about and probably in mymind you I would like to hear
your thoughts about this it'sstill a little bit underutilized
and underfunded, but is atremendous resource where many
gaps occur.
So if you, if you're willing,like, tell us a little bit about
how you, how you got to therole Like part of that's your
(05:27):
lived experience, part of that'sbecoming a certified peer
support specialist.
Tell us a little bit of yourstory.
I'd like to hear it, um cause Ithink people need to hear those
things.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, so I actually um, come from a um, a long time
of incarceration, mental health,substance use, crack was my
drug of choice and it had medoing things, took me places.
I didn't want to go Like it.
(05:56):
Just it really took over mylife.
The substance use part, andwhen I say about 12 to 15 years
of in and out of activeaddiction, in and out of
different treatments that wasavailable, or here, 12 step, is
the only way.
You need a sponsor.
You need to go to thirdmeetings like this was it, this
(06:19):
was, and when I wasn't able tosucceed, I failed, right and so
they were barely addressing themental health stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
That was.
That was it.
I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I had no idea for a long time that I need that.
Mental health was the problem.
Right was was the four.
I just thought like, oh, I justhappen to try crack and like it
a lot.
And now look at me, you know,never mind, nevermind the court
Things are great, so I startedsmoking crack.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Never.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Right.
So it wasn't until it's been 11and a half years ago was the
last time I entered BuncombeCounty Jail or any facility with
a criminal charge.
And I was at the point where Iknew like I just knew that if I
(07:09):
didn't change everything, like Iwould just continue to keep
coming back, I was 36 in jailone more time, and I was looking
at a significant for me at atthat time it was like two and a
half years worth of time and Ithought, if I, if I don't do
something different, Idefinitely I'm gonna keep coming
(07:33):
back and or die right.
And so I, at that point, I guessI took all the little seeds
that had been planted over those12 to 15 years you know, like a
gratitude list, killing people,making amends, like just all
(07:54):
the little seeds that I'd pickedup and I started to implement
them and realized that the coreof all this was my mental health
.
And if I did not address mymental health at the same time I
was addressing substances, if Idid not address my mental
health at the same time I wasaddressing substances, nothing
was going to change.
Because for so many years and Idid it so good too I would get
to the place where I was able tostop using substances, usually
(08:15):
because I was in jail.
I would get out, I'd have agood mindset, but eventually I
would lead right back to thesubstance.
The stressors of life that, comeyou know, yeah, like you know,
one of my big triggers of backin the day is getting
overwhelmed, like a young 20year old like I would walk in
circles, unable to makedecisions, basic decisions, you
(08:37):
know, and I didn't know that I'm47 now, but I didn't know that
then.
But so, yeah, being able to tonow sit in jail 11 and a half
years ago, realize I needed todo everything differently, and
that also meant I needed to lookat my mental health, and so I
was fortunate to have been giventhe opportunity to get in and
(09:01):
be part of the Buncombe CountyDrug Treat court.
Um, and so I.
I was again, I don't know how Iwas, uh, lucky enough to gain
access to important life-savingservices because not everybody
can um, but I did and I got inthere, I graduated, I've I've
(09:24):
done all the.
you know I was doing all thethings prior to that.
Let me back up.
I was in treatment.
So I was in jail for four and ahalf months.
Drug court said we want you indrug court, but you need
long-term treatment.
So they sent me to a 90 daytreatment facility.
While I was there, it was it'sin black mountain, it's through
the, the prison system.
But while I was there, my, mycounselor, she said, hey, what
(09:48):
about a peer support specialist?
And I was like, hey, I don'teven know what that is.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
You know, like you know.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
And so she pulled it up and she was like it's a
person with lived experiencewho's overcoming you know, and
I'm like, oh my God.
I just lit up on the insideLike I knew in that moment that
was what my goal and that's whatI wanted to do Prior to that.
I always wanted to be asubstance use counselor.
I could never keep my stufftogether long enough to be able
(10:16):
to accomplish that goal.
But when I found out about this, the peer support and like
being just true to who you areand your record your record is
now your resume, like all ofthat was just like heck yeah,
like I can't believe this isreally cause.
Prior to this I had I went toschool and I'm a hairdresser.
(10:39):
I'm a licensed hairdresser, youknow, I had skills and things
to do, but like I have arthritisand so like it kind of all
lined up to where I no longerhad to like physically work, but
then do this peer support stuff.
So I was like heck yeah, let'sdo it.
Get out um do the drug courtthing, the recovery housing, um
all the things, um 12-stepmeetings, sponsor, um emdr.
(11:02):
I did do that yeah and I can'tsay for sure if that's what you
know helped or didn't help.
But here I am, almost 12 yearslater, without um using
substances again.
So I'm going to take it asthere's no silver bullet, right
they all come together to workwith one another in some fashion
(11:23):
.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
You you know in that case you know what you're saying
is it was enough to get you,get you to the place where you
wanted to be and get you therole you're in now.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, so I did.
I became the certified peersupport specialist.
I started at one of our localcommunity mental health agencies
as a peer that led groups andwent on activity and did
activities with the psychosocialrehabilitative group TSR.
(11:56):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, part of the ACT team, that's right.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, and so I did that for a couple of years.
And then there was, like thisnew let me back up when I was in
my peer support training therewas.
They called them lunch andlearns and individuals would
come in and tell us about theprograms of which peers were
utilized.
One of them was kevin mahoney ohyeah he was telling us all
(12:25):
about sunrise and this was avolunteer peer support uh
organization and I was just like.
I looked at my friend, I waslike we're gonna have to get to
know this guy.
He's like the peer support God.
So fast forward, sunrisebecomes an actual entity and
organization and opened itsdoors in 2016.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
It was a fire starter that Kevin.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yes, yes, I love Kevin he.
So the doors opened in 2016.
I became a volunteer and didsome work at AHOPE on the
weekends through Sunrise as avolunteer.
Well, they had a position openand I was like, oh my God, let
me try.
Like full of fear of change andeverything, but let me just try
(13:11):
this.
Just aligned with where I wasmost passionate, right, and so I
got the job.
It was a program coordinator.
Where I was most passionate,right, and so I got the job.
It was a program coordinator.
I was one of two full-timeemployees, so it was me, my
friend Gina and then Kevin for10 hours a week.
(13:33):
As he continued to work over atRHA on the act team.
So yeah, so that's how itstarted January of 2017.
I took on a full-time withSunrise.
Like I said, I was a programcoordinator.
I then became the respite teamlead, Then I became an
operations director and thenKevin had some health issues
going on.
I had to take a step back andthen I went into his role as the
(13:55):
executive director and that wasback in 2019.
So, yeah, yeah.
So back in 2019, we actuallythen grew.
So we grew a little bit, grew alittle bit.
You know, there's two of uswhen I started, then there was
five of us a year later and nowthere's 54 of us.
Wow, 54.
(14:16):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
That's really great.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yes, we got to open the door on a $50,000 grant that
was given to us to uh as a RCOpass through.
So RCO is a recovery communityorganization.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
And so we got the RCC funding through an entity out.
Uh, out East we get to, we holdthat program program.
Now we give out thepass-through funding for other
rccs.
So it's a full circle uh forthe state or for the area, like
well from uh, the goal is forthe whole state, but I learned
(14:52):
the hard way that we do not wantto grow faster than we can yeah
, yeah, then we have thecapacity to get painful, can it?
oh gosh, oh we.
Uh, I'm alive, and breathing,still.
So I made it well done yeah um,but yeah, so uh, from wilkes
and charlotte charlotte all theway to the koala boundary, we
(15:14):
cover all those counties, okayyeah, and when you say 54 they
all serve western north carolina, or they?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
are they All the way to the Koala boundary?
We cover all those counties,okay, yeah, and when you say 54,
they all serve Western NorthCarolina, or are they?
Are they?
You know, mostly Asheville,mostly Asheville, right?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Our home base is on total road.
That's our main hub, and thenwe have nine other Nine or 10
other programs Sorry, we've hadsome ins and outs right now
going on um, that mostly arehome-based.
Out of ashville we have acouple of programs that are well
(15:47):
.
We have uh, three, four staffout in cherokee.
So, on the reservation, okay yep, we have a koala boundaries and
band of cherokee re-entryprogram and we we have a drop in
center that we're looking toopen the doors any, any moment.
So we have duplicated what wehave here, right On the boundary
, for our native folks.
(16:08):
And then we have another ARCprogram that is in four rural
counties, which is like Polk,rutherford, mcdowell and forget.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Oh yeah, haywood right.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
No God, it's Polk Rutherford McDowell.
I might have to look it up now.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Kryon's Polk, Rutherford, McDowell, All the
South Carolina line countiesyeah, here we go Cleveland.
Cleveland County.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
There we go, that's it and so we're in those
counties too, our staff are inthose counties.
The other piece where, like inCharlotte and Wilkes, the other
RCCs that are, that we providetechnical assistance and pass
through funding to.
They're not our employees butwe partner with and and you know
(17:10):
and stuff.
But right.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah well, and so you got some.
You got some pass-throughfunding.
Is that?
Does that funding repeat everyyear?
Do you give them your outcomesand show what you've been doing
and then, theoretically, youmight get that money back again
next year?
Is that true?
You?
Are you fundraising for whatnext year looks like?
We don't.
You're right.
I mean, you know thelegislation you don't know right
(17:33):
.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
So we're grant chasers.
We are like 90 somethingpercent grant funded with a
touch of donations, yeah Right.
And so every year it's alwaysup for bid whether we're going
to get funding or not.
That is that we've been in theright places at the right times
(17:59):
with the right funding, withbetween COVID funding and the
additional substance use blockgrant funds and all that, we've
just been in a line and beenable to like capture.
But also because of the workthat our team does right, like
we.
We do really great work and wedo provide the outcomes above
and beyond.
And so, in my opinion, thestate.
(18:20):
So these are federal.
Our biggest grant is our RCOthat provides the pass through
and that is substance use blockgrant funds.
So that is given to the stateand then we contract with the
state for that, with the statefor that when I first.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
That was my very first executive director.
Grant submission was for thisproject.
Felt good to get it boarded,didn't it?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, that was so.
That was 2019.
And we got $375,000 and we werestinking rich Like we were like
like gonna expand and like wehad this past year, and it's
still looking good for this nextfiscal year.
Um, it's at 2.9 million samethat's awesome yeah, same
(19:09):
funding, same all that um in 20,where are we at 24?
In j July of 2023, we did.
We got a pretty significantincrease.
It doubled what we, we wereworking and increasing every
year since 2019, you know alittle bit out of time, but two
years ago well, 2023's fiscalyear, I guess, I don't know they
(19:36):
were like we have more money,what do do you need?
And we gave them a big old wishlist and they gave us most of
what we asked for well, and itsounds like there was.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
You know there's a fairly sizable funding
initiative that happened at thestate level.
You know millions of dollarsthat were being spread out
through different you knoweither agencies or grant.
You know grant requests there'seven still some of that grant
stuff that's out there now togive agencies like yours money
to do the programming they do.
And you know it sounds likeyou've done really good things
(20:06):
with your money.
Is it enough Like?
Are you getting what you need?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I mean I think I know the answer to this question,
but the need is so significant Icouldn't even put a dollar
amount on it yeah like the yeah,we have significant amount of
fun.
Like.
Our total operating um annualbudget is estimated right now at
like 4.9 million um.
The need is beyond that.
(20:33):
Like if we doubled that, theneed still wouldn't be captured
like.
It meant yes, like for example,one of our programs is called a
housing program, but it's not.
It's not independent housing,it's recovery housing so
temporary housing, sober livingquasi sober living yeah yep, so,
(20:54):
um, that need is so and I justpick on that because it's one of
our little smaller program outof the bigger one and the need,
like our two peer navigatorsthat are over that program.
We have to check in with themconstantly, like to make sure
they're not getting overwhelmed.
(21:14):
And they're not, because theyhave to say no so many times and
it's like heartbreaking andthen they also just they're not
machines and they couldliterally just sit there and
hand out money, hand out moneyand do the thing you know like,
and it just would never beenough.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
My wife's the executive director of Evelyn
charity, so we have an idea ofwhat you're talking about.
So, we've been seeing a lot ofthe same thing.
You know we're just, you knowthere's no end of the need.
Yeah, and it's very challengingto kind of address the
(21:51):
community's need because theinfrastructure is not there and
the resources aren't there.
And you know it feels likeyou're you know as well, as well
funded as you might be for theprogramming you do, you still
feel like you're puttingband-aids on things that's it.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
That's it, and uh, we won't even backtrack.
You probably don't want to putthis I'm going to edit this out,
but I just want to say it outloud that whole shelter thing
that we did a few years ago,yeah, with the city, that was a
bunch of crap, band-aid, butanyway yeah, that is notorious
(22:21):
for the city and its approach toanything yeah, and its approach
to the disenfranchised, uh,people who are either homeless
or next to homelessness, likethe, the, the, what they put
towards addressing that need.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
It's like you know I, you know they'll, you know
they'll roll over for a newhotel, but they'll cut every
dollar when it comes toaddressing their own population
in need.
And I'd love to say that,helene, maybe have changed that
that so many people fell intoneed that they addressed that
(22:58):
they had to reconsider howthey're addressing that problem.
I just don't think they have.
I don't see any evidence thatthat's true so, yeah, I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
I feel like, again, this is totally off the record.
I feel like what they're doingright now is the same crap they
did then, is they was throwingthree hundred thousand dollars
at the problem, yeah, and thenhanding it to the mission now to
handle, and then to the mission.
At the end of the day, themission is the bad folks that
put them back on the street.
That's how it got handled withSunrise and the Ramada, right,
(23:29):
yes, so anyways, all right, letme rebalance.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Well, I mean, if you look at it from a, I mean, you
know is pbm, so we're okay,we're okay saying things that
are true, yeah, yeah, and youknow.
It's like it's regardless ofthe regardless of what you know
candidate you voted for, or whatyou know president was in power
or anything else.
This problem's been existingfor a very long time and hasn't
really changed.
We're talking about the lack ofinfrastructure to handle the
(23:59):
need.
And then we're talking aboutorganizing the entity like the
state or the county or the city,and they you know they've been
doing this for a very long timethey find a contractor and that
contractor can fulfill the needfor cheaper than they can do it
(24:21):
themselves.
So great, Pay a contractor, youknow, throw money at the
contractor makes our budget lookgood, and then whatever
problems exist is like I don'tknow, must be the contractor's
fault.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
And what you did is you had somebody who um, either
they were, they were um wantingto do something and of good
intent, and didn't realize whatthey were faced with.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
And I.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I think there's a lot of people in that run, small
nonprofits that find themselvesin that spot.
It's like I meant to do.
Good, my gosh, I had no ideaand it's really not enough.
Or you've got, you know, you'vegot larger corporate entities
that are running the numbers andyou know, taking Medicaid
billing and Medicaid dollars andthat sort of thing, and you
know their higher ups, theircorporates, are making plenty
(25:12):
but they're still not able totruly address the need because
the amount they allocate for onethey didn't allocate
appropriately and, two, theamount they allocate for the
number that they determined tobe the number of people is not
enough.
It's not.
Like you know, and I certainlyrun into you know, there are,
via health and RHA, folks that Ithink are wonderful, great
(25:33):
people.
I've run into them all the time.
But you know overall they arenot enough.
They they failed to supportpeople that need the support in
a substantive way, and I, youknow I've even got clients that
are.
You know they fortunatelythey're my clients have trust
(25:53):
funds and that they're able tokind of scoot by.
But people very quickly fallinto the gap, or they fall into
a hole or they fall back intocrisis or they fall back into
addiction because the supportthey're receiving is not enough.
What I know and what youprobably can affirm, you know,
working with individuals who,who have enough resources to go
(26:14):
through a treatment process, Itell my, I tell the people that
I talk to my clients I said,look, you're looking at two
years of treatment.
You're looking at residentialcare and then stepping down with
support, probably doing somePHP, iop, some kind of clinical
(26:35):
care support.
That person's going to have tohave groups and coaches and
support features and soberliving, and they're, you know,
you're looking at two yearsworth of this journey to even
feel like they can stand back ontheir feet again.
And then they've got to facethis.
Who am I now After this, aftera life altering series of events
(26:59):
, I could see that I'm talkingyour language.
You know it's like you know andif you, if you clock the time,
you know you can do it.
You can do it from start tofinish If you want.
We all know that recovery isnot a linear process and many
people do not do it from startto finish.
You know they, they take somesideways journeys.
(27:19):
Um, as one of my friends likesto say, I had to do some more
field research.
Yeah, um, and so you know I Ithink that you know met it.
I started off in the field in1994, so I I worked as a field
counselor to where I met my wife.
Um, I started off as a fieldcounselor working for a
(27:43):
wilderness program that wastaking inner city kids from
charlotte court, referred kids,you know, drugs and carjacking
and theft and you know going toget crack for mom, and like
those were my kids.
Um, and what happened was isthat we had a it was a nine to
12 month program, um, and thenMedicaid came in with managed
(28:06):
care and managed care startedputting treatment periods right
on, on on.
They took medical healthtreatment periods and put them
on behavioral health and so, youknow, a 12-month program turned
into a 90-day program.
Six-month program turned amonth-long program and all the
sudden, you had, you know, for aprogram that was designed to
(28:30):
work as a group support model.
You know, kids were there longenough to get stable, have a
culture, and you could rely onthem to help manage new group
members coming in.
It's like look, this is the waythis works, let's break you in,
but if nobody has, nobody's in,nobody has the culture and
nobody's stable enough.
(28:50):
You all you got is crisis allthe time.
Well, you're just chaos.
I mean it's chaos.
And so I really think thatthat's just one example of what
the world has done, the Medicaidfunding system has done with
all the community-based supportand hospitals.
(29:12):
You know, hospitals are likethree to seven days back on the
street.
Yeah, Little IOP.
I, as a person I'm sure, spentsome time in the hospital and
then got put on the street.
Do you think an IOP was goingto be enough?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
No, um, and just to clarify too uh, my, my mom, like
my mom, was always like youneed long-term treatment, you
need this, this and this, andI'll tell you that freaked me
out, actually the minutesomebody told me I needed to
stop for a year of my life, likeI was, like that's not for me.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Well, I tell people all the time.
I was like look the people thatyou see going through treatment
.
That is one of the bravestthings a human being will ever
do.
It's like tell you what youneed to go, stop everything
you've been doing.
And then you got to get a bunchof people standing around you
to tell you everything that'swrong and how you need to be
going right again and what youneed to do and kind of dig out
(30:11):
all your deepest secrets andyour traumas and your everything
else.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
It's like if you, if your response to that is an
absolute terror right I don'tknow who you are right um but to
look back now and to see, likewhen I got to that place where I
knew like I needed to dowhatever, anyone told me because
I no longer wanted to go backto that place where I knew like
I needed to do whatever anyonetold me because I no longer
wanted to go back to that, yeah,yeah then yeah, that two years
(30:34):
in drug court seemed perfectlyfine yeah, you know, so I don't
know everybody's recovering.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I mean, I think everybody makes like, yeah, your
recovery, you make it.
There's a time when you make achoice, like every person.
Until they make that choiceright, you can, you can string
them through care.
I think that people gettinghelp is still beneficial in some
way.
Maybe it doesn't take, but itleaves a seed.
Maybe that seed will grow intosomething that becomes them able
(31:01):
to make that choice.
Finally, I don't want topoo-poo people getting help,
even if it doesn't stick.
I think that your story I wishit doesn't stick, but, um, I
think that you are.
You know your story.
I wish it wasn't so common.
I wish it wasn't.
You know, it's like I thinkthere are people out in the
world who might hear your storyand think that it's you know, I
(31:24):
mean, there were times when itwas absolutely terrible for you
and terrifying for you and awfuland everything else.
And it's also incredibly commonand it's happening all the time
in so many places for hundredsof thousands of people
everywhere, millions of peopleacross the country, and people
don't understand it.
(31:44):
They don't understand that.
That's the experience thatpeople have.
It really does get that bad forpeople and and you know making
decisions and that bad forpeople and and you know making
decisions and getting help, butit you know you had to, you had
to dig your help out, like jailand drug court and be enforced,
and all this like there's aneasier way, it's a better way,
like oh yeah, do better, uh thanthis, I mean, and I always like
(32:09):
to beat myself, you know likethe harder, longer, most
toughest way possible.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I still drag myself through that sometimes yeah,
yeah, I feel you well.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
So if you were gonna, let me ask you this question if
you were gonna, if you hadeverything you ever wanted, what
?
What would the system look like?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
access for all, like literally, um, I don't know how,
I don't know, like all theintertwines to make it happen,
but what I see is there is a lotof professionals that are burnt
out, that aren't being takencare of, that aren't, you know,
(32:57):
mental health professionals andtherapists?
You know all the folks withinour big teams Like we're humans
too, and like we need thatself-care.
We're humans too, and like weneed that self-care.
We need to be taken care of andwe need to be our best self so
that we can give back and besupportive to the rest of the
(33:19):
humans that are out here.
You know suffering.
So I feel like that.
One thing I see happening isthat like there's not enough
therapists right now to createan act team to take on the
people that are on waiting listsfor months and months and
months.
there's people out here that arenot getting access to what they
need or even a piece of whatthey need because, there's
(33:43):
nobody to do the service so Idon't know if that goes back to
we need to as an organization,as an agency or whatever.
We need to treat our peoplebetter so that they're not burnt
out and they're able to show up.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Pay them appropriately too.
I mean, I've heard some of thehorror stories about how people
are compensated and having tomanage their own expenses and
drive their own car and pay fortheir own gas and everything
else.
Having to manage their ownexpenses and drive their own car
and pay for their own gas andeverything else.
It's just like people aregetting.
You know you can't, you can'tput somebody in what is
ultimately a very intense job,but then also nickel and dime
(34:19):
them.
You know what I mean?
Like it's at the very leastmake sure that they can pay
their bills at the end of theday and and get compensated
appropriately, like and havemoney for a massage, or have
money for health care Right orhealth care for that matter, you
know what I mean, the abilityto go to the doctor and pay the
out-of-pocket I mean you know,we're not just talking about,
(34:42):
we're not even talking aboutfrill.
We're talking about the basicshere, you know be able to pay
for the basics and also like geta massage or have their own
therapist yeah you know what Imean, because they're definitely
going to need that.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
So yeah, I do think that's a huge barrier right now,
because that's what I, what I'mlike seeing is happening um,
out out in the real world rightnow for our folks that are very
much struggling and need accessto more than just the
psychiatrist.
So you know, there's anindividual I'm thinking of right
(35:16):
now that has literally been ona wait list to get on that team
for six months or better andonly sees a psychiatrist right
now and only has a case managerwho's not helping really do
anything.
But is it that case manager'sfault?
That case manager probably has75 clients on their case.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, which is an unmanageable caseload yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So I'm like I don't know how or what the answer is
to get it to this way, but Ifeel like, if we are able to pay
and take care of our people,our professionals that are
helping other human beings liketo continue to show up the best
that they can like.
I don't know well take care ofthem.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Give them resources to help themselves so they feel
like they can return to the job.
Give them a manageable caseload.
Honestly right, give them a jobthat can that's doable yeah um
which means you're increasingcost.
But, like I, you're eitherpaying.
You're either paying it here.
You're paying to put people injail.
That's what you're doing.
I mean, we know, we know thecomparative figures, we know
(36:23):
what it comes down to.
It's like you're paying moremoney, like it is now.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Or they end up in Broughton or they end up dead
because they weren't respondedto appropriately or you know,
yeah, absolutely.
I know the stories, I knowthey're too many and too
frequent.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
But you know it's funny because I ask people that
question and a lot of timeswhere they go to is the people
who need care and how theyshould be receiving it and what
kind and nature and how much.
But your response, I think, iscool.
I mean it's different becausesome of the nature of where you
are, but it's like part of whatwe need to do is take care of
our own.
Part of this job is also makingsure these people who are
(37:03):
providing care feel like they'rebeing cared for, feel like they
can take care of themselves,and if they can't do that, they
just they just burn out.
you know, we just burn them outand then somebody new comes in
and um, you never get a realwork culture that allows you
know a super experienced personwho's been there for years and
years and years, like yourselfto be able to pass on the
(37:24):
lessons and pass on theknowledge and and give them that
boost in the arm that they need.
I'm just so glad, sue, thatyou're doing the work that
you're doing.
We're so proud of Sunrise as anagency here.
I'll have to get by and be morepresent over there.
I will do that absolutely.
I'll bring you lunch orsomething like that and maybe
(37:45):
give a little something for thevolunteers and the peer support
specialists.
That would be a great thing todo, but it has been great having
you on the show today.
Sue, thank you so much forjoining me.
This has been wpvm 1037, thevoice of ashville.
I'm todd weatherly, your host,and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Thanks, sue, take care yeah, thank you, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.