October 28, 2019 • 34 mins
When I first met today's guest, Sebastien Denes, I liked him immediately. But I did question what kind of content he would be able to bring to this recording. Here was another privileged white male in an executive role on an international career track at a multinational organisation. I have spent a large percentage of my career as an executive headhunter in Asia, and I've seen a thousand people like Sebastien. At least that's what I thought. I was wrong. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:45 - Part 1 22:50 - Part 2 30:54 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]SD: It's so helpful.
(00:03):
We don't have an 阿姨 [āyí], so… It does alot of work for us, you know, in our big
apartment. And it's just working, it’s reallynice, it’s cleaning the house every day.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So if you're listening in real time, welcomeback from the week off since the last episode
(00:27):
with Lori. And if you're a new listener, he hasa quick recap on how each interview works. The
first part of each recording is a straightforwardtwo-way conversation, which starts with the guest
introducing an object that in some way describestheir life in China. In the second part, I asked
every guest the same 10 China-related questions,all on the theme of their personal experiences and
(00:51):
opinions. And then in the third part, I ask theguest just one final question, which is simply
“Out of everyone you know in China, whom should Iinterview for the next season of Mosaic of China?”
So at the end of every episode, you'll get aglimpse into what the line-up looks like for next
year. And you can see how, tile by tile, thesestories will connect up to form a Mosaic of China.
(01:12):
So in today's episode, I talk withSebastien Denes, who I first met
through my friend Curtis Baker many months ago.Thank you, Curtis. When I first met Sebastien,
the thought did go through my mind, you know“Here's a nice guy, but what is it about him
that made Curtis introduce him to me in thefirst place?” And then as we kept talking,
it slowly became more and more clear. Andbecause this made the impact of what he
(01:35):
ended up saying so much stronger, I thoughtI would try to put you in that same situation
today. So without any further introduction,here is my conversation with Sebastien.
[Part 1]OF: So thank you very much, Sebastien.
SD (01:48):
Thank you, Oscar, for having me here. OF
Sebastien is the VP of Digital Business Serviceand the Head of the CoE for Greater China at SAP.
Yeah, that's what I do. OF
I've been in China for seven years, starting the eighth one now. Yeah, so it feels so long,
(02:09):
and on the other side it feels like yesterday,OF: Right. And before I ask you any
other question, tell me what is theobject that you have brought today?
So I brought you a picture frame that was actually offered to me by my spouse,
my wife. And the picture that is inside is apicture of me finishing my first marathon. That
(02:35):
was back last year in 2018. But it's not thepicture that is important. It's what it says,
and who offered it to me, right. “You BecomeWhat You Believe”. And I think we're gonna
talk a lot about that during our talk today.OF: This was in Shanghai, was it, this marathon?
Ah no it was in Singapore. OF
(02:57):
I can see it now, The StanChart SingaporeMarathon, yes. I've actually run that one,
but I ran the half marathon.So you did better than me.
It's hot. OF
five in the morning, right?SD: Yeah, 4:30. It's just
like… eugh. I have mixed memories.OF: And it does represent a
(03:18):
transformation of some kind, doesn't it?SD: It does. I have - back in the beginning
of 2018 - I've been overweight fora very long time. And you know,
you do not necessarily take the actions,you let it go. And it looks, sometimes,
more difficult than it is, right? And in manyoccasions, it's just taking the first steps.
(03:42):
So back in, I would say February/March2018, I decided to take the first step,
which was going to see a nutritionist, get help,start moving a little bit, and get healthier.
Probably also get nicer, a better person.OF: And so, this story started a little bit
(04:05):
earlier for you, didn't it. Talk us through abouthow this has been part of that transformation?
Well, I would say back in 2016, we had to restructure the company, which was for me the
first time as a professional to be leading thisrestructuring, and making decisions that were
going to impact people lives, that were alsoshaping the organisation. And it was a little
(04:33):
bit like the end of innocence, if you wish…SD: Yeah. I knew it was not a game at the time,
right. But I would say that's where it becomesreally serious, that you understand that your
actions have consequences. It has also taughtme to actually trust the people, bring a team
(04:59):
around yourself. And that also entails having adiverse team, bringing different gender different
attitude, different culture into the team, sothat you improve the overall business decisions,
and the outcome at the end of the day. And one ofthe initiatives that we started was - globally,
(05:21):
actually - was Autism at Work. And Autism atWork is… take high potentials that are within
the autism spectrum, that have extremely preciousskills for us in terms of engineering skills, and
bring them to the workplace. Not only bring themto the workplace, but also adapt the workplace
to them, so that they can perform, and so thatthey can give the best value to the company,
(05:47):
and make our software better at the end of theday, right. But we brought Steve. So, back in
2017 - end of 2017 - he joined the company. Sowe adapted the selection process so that they
can shine, right, and that you can detect theskills. And then Steve had many opportunities
to choose within the company. And he chose us,because we we tried to make a place for him,
(06:12):
we assigned to him a buddy that is still… she'sstill with him today, working alongside him.
We've been also working a lot on adjusting thework/life balance, because this is also very
important for the individuals on the spectrum,to adapt their life. And also include the parents
within the conversation, without having themdriving the conversation. So it's a… sometimes,
(06:38):
a challenging equilibrium to manage. But sincethen, I think we started some kind of a movement,
because we hired another colleague within thespectrum, Tao. So Tao joined the company in
2018. And we have also another colleague calledBill, who has joined another department of the
(06:59):
company. So that's what I'm actually especiallyhappy about, is that we see other managers and
other leaders stepping in and understanding thatyou can get a lot, lot, lot of value, not only
from intrinsic skills that those individualsare bringing, but also by providing a different
(07:21):
culture and changing the culture in the company,making people more empathetic. Making people, you
know, more conscious of the differences out there.OF: And when you hired Steve, like, how many other
examples of hiring people on the autisticspectrum had there been in China beforehand?
Zero. OF
(07:43):
Zero. So we were the first company to do that in China. Generally speaking,
what we have observed for disabled people in Chinais that, because of the tax relief, companies are
actually hiring people in with disabilities, butthey are not using them, they're not actually
making them work. And more than anything, itwas more reserved to manual work, rather than
(08:10):
intellectual work. Because Steve is an engineer.So he works with customers, with other employees
on solving very complex problems that areactually impacting the business of our customers
if they are not solved. So he is an integrant,very important part of our system here in China.
OF (08:28):
And I guess without talking about Steve individually, but just in general, what are
the advantages and what are the challenges?SD: So the struggle is to first of all, not
forget that you're not doing a favour to anyoneby employing Steve - or Tao, for that matter - and
that they have expectations. So if you change thework - if the work that you give to them is not
(08:54):
up to what they think is their level of skills- they’re going to tell you. And they have this
high capacity to process things. So what you maythink is adapted for a - I don't like ‘normal’,
but - more ‘standard’ employee, let's put it thatway, is probably not. You have to give them more
(09:14):
work. Because they can process more. On the otherside, sometimes it is challenging to manage, also,
the parents,. Because they are very present. Andwe're blessed that they're around us to support
us, and help us. But on the other side, sometimesyou have to draw a line, where the company takes
a decision, and that has to be that decision,and the employee also has to live with this
(09:37):
decision sometimes, right? I'm thinking about forexample, when a manager changes. I have a mentee
in the Czech Republic, his manager, who actuallyhired him, changed. And he’s now feeling a little
bit unsettled with the new manager, who hasn'tchosen him. So rebuilding this relationship - not
(10:01):
based on choice, but based on a matter-of-factsituation that is coming to you - it's sometimes
difficult and unsettling. So you have to dealwith this. With the individuals, but also with
the managers. They have, also, to understandthat certain situations have to be avoided.
And that if they pay sufficient attention, andif they invest sufficient amount of time, the
(10:26):
value that they're going to get back is immenselyhigher than the investment they're going to make.
And when you talk about how, you know, these people do change - in terms of how
you manage them, and they change theenvironment that they come into - like,
how have you personally perceived that?SD: Well you, for sure, become way more
(10:49):
empathetic. You base your decision on differentcriteria, right. Not only on the pure, immediate
outcome that you can get, but way more on thelong=term, soft impact. How do you measure the
impact of a positive culture? Very difficult tomeasure. Nevertheless, I'm completely convinced
(11:11):
that it's producing an incredible outcome. Howdo you measure happy people? How do you measure
people that are more capable of understandingsomeone else? And how does that impact our
employees, and their relation with our customers?So this is, on one side the very interesting part,
(11:32):
and on the other side the very difficult part.OF: What about on a personal level? So if we
talk about, you know, inclusion at SAP,what about you personally? How would
you describe what your management stylewas before, compared to where it is now?
SD (11:47):
Well, I would say, I'm more of an ‘alpha’ leader, right. I like things clear, I like thing
going forward, I tend sometimes to be impatient,result-driven and so on. And sometimes you just
forget that there are different people in theroom. There has been a turnaround point for me,
(12:13):
which was… We brought Steve and Tomas - Tomasis from the Czech Republic - to an Autism at
Work conference in Nanning, in the south ofChina. And we had this crazy idea to do a
panel discussion - in Chinese and in frontof a fairly large audience - for two young
(12:37):
individuals within the spectrum, just to showthat autism is a condition, it’s not a fate.
And during this discussion - it was obviouslyvery interesting to see their points of view,
and their experiences - I stopped while I wason stage, and saw Steve’s mother, looking at her
(13:00):
son. And you know… those eyes that transmitpride and genuine love. So that was for me,
back in 2018, my bonus. That was my full yearbonus. Because this was such an accomplishment,
to see a mother proud of her child, which -probably she had a lot of challenges to bring up,
(13:26):
not very much supported by the system, a lot ofquestioning - and to see him, there, succeed,
you could feel that sentiment within her.And for me, it was also the realisation of
what can be the impact of what we do. Or whatwe don't. But if we do, we can have an impact
(13:53):
that changes lives, that really has an impactthat is long-lasting, and that probably will
help parents taking the decision to bring theirkids to university. Because there is a hope,
because there are companies out there thatare willing to take that jump. And that's
very rewarding, from a personal perspective.OF: Yeah, it makes me think that there aren't
(14:21):
that many people who you see on the streetwith disabilities here in Shanghai. I'm just
trying to think if that's just me in termsof… am I not looking in all the different
areas? Or is that is that a thing, like…SD: OK, so just bringing in the numbers,
we’re talking 85 million people with disabilitiesin China. 80% of them are unemployed. And if they
(14:45):
are employed, they're sometimes not even inthe factories, in the companies, because they
are kept at home. And you don't see them becausethey're hidden. That's my interpretation, right,
we probably would need to cross-check it withspecialists of the country. I think there is
a little bit of a shame. To block them out. Theenvironment and the culture and the society is
(15:08):
not so inclusive with them. So that can beseen on one side as a very big problem. And
it is. But on the other side, it's a fantasticup-side, because you have 85 million people that
are overlooked, that are not considered.And that, for companies, is an 85 million
(15:31):
people pool of talent that we can look into.OF: Yeah, it reminds me of my own life as a
headhunter where we only had about 120 employees,but 10% of them were people with disabilities.
And it was just like you said, we didn't hirethem as a charity. These were people who had the
(15:52):
best skills actually, for what we wanted them,which was doing a lot of the market research,
doing a lot of the analytics with the data. Andit's something where, yeah, you do realise “Oh,
wow, you know, these are people who arebeing overlooked by other employees. But
that's their problem. And actually, weare getting a big advantage out of it”.
Exactly. That's a that's an edge, actually. OF
(16:17):
are you measuring the impact? And of course, thereare tangible impacts and intangible ones. So I'm
curious to know how you would work on those?SD: Well, first of all, I like to talk about
metrics, not about quotas. We don't have quotas,for nothing, at SAP. And I wouldn't like to work
for quotas. But I like to measure. We want to haveup to, I think, 1% or 2% of our of our employees
(16:46):
with disabilities, within the autism spectrum.But we measure, a lot, employee satisfaction. How
they consider the leadership, the cultureof the company. We have a yearly survey,
and we're going to move from a yearly survey toa more continuous assessment of those numbers.
(17:08):
And I think for me, as I said, it's not aboutquotas, but it's about telling yourself the truth,
right. And sometimes the narrative supports thetruth. Sometimes it does not, right. If you look
at the narrative right now it’s, the workplace isway more inclusive. And you would tend to believe
(17:28):
that, in China, the workplace is more inclusivefor women. The reality is, in the last five years,
China has lost 40 places in the global rankingfor women in the workplace, moving from the 60th
place to the 100th place, right. So that'swhy metrics and measurement are interesting,
(17:51):
because it gives you valuable information. It’snot everything, as I said earlier. You have to
measure culture and positiveness and empathy,which are more difficult to measure. But I think
if you go through a combination of both - hardmeasurement and soft measurement - you get a
(18:12):
pretty decent picture of where you are right now.OF: And what about other managers in your
situation? Because what strikes me fromyour story is that you are, you know,
you're someone who outwardly I would say“OK you've described yourself as an alpha,
you're a privileged white European guy in China.And yet, you've come to this conclusion about
(18:33):
inclusivity”. Where, you know, normally thepeople who talk about inclusivity are women,
are people who are LGBT, or people who have avested interest. So that's why I'm impressed
with your story, having come from your background.SD: Well I like to think of privilege coming with,
also, duties. And for me, it's importantto - and we try to teach this to our kids
(18:59):
as well - to realise that out of the 6 billionpeople in this world, we are very fortunate. We
have a key to almost every country in the world.With my passport, I can enter 160 countries,
no question asked. Is this the case for 90% of thepopulation of the world? No. And it doesn't mean
(19:23):
you don't work hard, it doesn't mean you don'ttake whatever it takes to to make it happen on
your side. But it would be a little bit foolish toconsider this as a fair game, right? Life is not
a fair game. And you can take those privileges,and close your eyes, and go forward. Or you can
(19:44):
say “Well, I'm gonna open doors. I'm going tomake a difference. I'm going to make an impact”.
And sometimes it's just opening the door, sothat someone can just enter a room and shine.
And for me, it’s not about bringing people thatdon't belong, right? It's exactly the contrary,
(20:06):
it’s bringing people that belong, but for themthe door is closed. And also, it's good for
business. It provides an incredible additionaloutcome. So, if you combine this privilege,
plus this duty - towards P&L, towards successwith the company, bringing us back to 2016,
(20:31):
when it was hard - then you do whatever it takesto make it happen. And Diversity and Inclusion is
part of the equation. More diverse companies aremore successful than less diverse companies, just
because if you don't include different opinionsin your decision process - that are coming from
(20:56):
different backgrounds, different ages, differentsex, different sexual orientation, religion,
you name it - you’re gonna miss part of the story.And you're not serving only one kind of people.
You're serving a very diverse world, right?OF: Yeah.
For me, right now, I came to realise that we are actually at the crossroad,
(21:21):
in that you have to choose your path, right? Andif you choose the path of Diversity and Inclusion,
you can change people's lives. Not for today,but for the generations to come. Think about
people who have a child that is within the autismspectrum. They ask themselves “Should I educate
(21:49):
him? Why should I make him go through all thechallenges, all the difficulties, if there is
no prize at the end of the day? At the end ofthe road, if there is no employment, if there
is no place for them?” And I'm not talking aboutonly autism, you can think about blind people,
about other types of disabilities, if you adaptcompanies to them, you're bringing a whole set
(22:13):
of opportunities to this community of people,right. And that's what I'm thinking about when I
talk about long-lasting impact. It's not only forSteve, for Tao, their fate is almost fixed today,
unfortunately. It’s for the generation to come.OF: Very good. Well, thank you very much for
(22:37):
that. Sebastien, I look forward to hearing whathappens in the future with your project. Well,
I should say ‘many projects’. But inthe meantime, let's move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: And Question 1,
what is your favourite China-related fact?SD: It's a very simple one, it’s 1.4 billion
(23:01):
people. I love this number, because it givesyou first of all a very accurate sizing of the
country. It's also, for companies, I believe- especially Western companies - some kind
of mirage. The illusion of capturing this1.4-billion-people market, right. Having
(23:22):
spent seven years here in China, I've seen so manycompanies with that in mind, coming here to think
they’re gonna conquer this market. I think inChina, you have to make a lot of adaptations to
make a difference, here in China.OF: Do you have a favourite
(23:42):
word or phrase in Chinese?SD: Oh, 听不懂 [tīng bù dǒng]. I love this one,
because I always tend to think that if you say“I don't understand” - for example in France,
my home country, or I don't know, maybe inEngland - people look at you and say “Ah,
another one that comes, and he doesn't understandthe language”. And here, it's a completely
(24:06):
different attitude. They laugh with you. Andsometimes they keep on talking Chinese, and you're
just like “听不懂 [tīng bù dǒng]” again, right? Or,many times they make the effort to make themselves
understood, right. So I like this contradiction ofa word that you speak in Chinese, saying “I don't
(24:27):
get it”, and the doors that this opens.OF: Nice. What's your favourite
destination within China?SD: My favourite destination would
be 九寨沟 [Jiǔzhàigōu], which is in Sichuan.It's a wonderful Alpine-style valley,
with beautiful lakes, and it's very closeto Tibet. I remember it, when we visited
(24:54):
five years ago, because it was the unexpected.OF: If you left China, what would you miss the
most, and what would you miss the least?SD: I will miss the most, the people.
The people I've worked with, the team. Becauseover those seven years, you've seen them grow,
build their families, have children, struggle atwork, grow as a person, as a professional. And
(25:22):
this probably is the part I would miss the most.OF: Anything you wouldn't miss?
The airlines. OF
Ah they’re always late. It's very stressful. I love the train. I think the train system in
China is wonderful. But the airlines, and the factthat there’s always a delay, and that you have to
(25:43):
wait for hours, It's just, like, very stressful.OF: That's someone who's done a lot of business
travel, I can see in your face.SD: Yes.
OF (25:50):
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
SD (25:54):
Every week, almost every day, there is something that makes you say “Oh, I didn't
think this would be possible”. Right? One of thelatest ones was, I was running around the city,
in 浦东 [Pǔdōng], and I actually found a bikecemetery. You know those sharing bikes,
(26:17):
they go somewhere to die. And this place is like,five football fields. It's the other side of the
sharing economy, it’s "What do you do with this?”It also for me, depicts how innovation goes in
China, which is “Let’s do it, go forward with it,then start to regulate, and then eventually fix
(26:41):
the issues that are going to happen”. Whereas inEurope or in Western countries, it's a little bit
“Oh let’s not do it, because we have this andthis and that and that reason”, right? So it's
more finding a reason not to do it; here in China,it’s more going forward. This is why I think the
country goes also very fast in that area.OF: I've only seen pictures of those bike
(27:02):
graveyards. I'm surprised that you actuallywere able to find one here in Shanghai.
I can bring you there. OF
we’ll go there. What is your favourite placeto go out, to eat or drink, or just hang out?
Alright, so it's gonna sound odd. It’s a restaurant in the Florentia Village. So,
(27:24):
Florentia Village is an outlet closeto the airport. So that's not so fancy,
nor glamourous, let's put it that way. Butthey have a very good restaurant, a very
good Italian restaurant called ‘BellaVita’. We know the chef, Stefano,
personally. And it's a little bit like every week,every Sunday, we go back to Italy. Nothing fancy,
(27:47):
nothing ‘fusion’, just traditional Italiancuisine, where you can find a little bit of
home and, you know, spend good family time.OF: And that's because your wife is Italian,
right?SD: Yeah.
OF (28:01):
If an Italian likes it, then it must be good. What is the best or
worst purchase you've made in China?SD: The best purchase is, actually,
a Xiaomi vacuum robot. It's so helpful.We don't have an 阿姨 [āyí], so… It does a
lot of work for us, you know, in our bigapartment. And it's just working, it’s
(28:24):
really nice, it’s cleaning the house every day.OF: Amazing. What's your favourite WeChat sticker?
SD (28:30):
It’s a pretty stupid one. It’s just an old lady who is just laughing out. I think sometimes
we are too serious. And it's just about laughing.OF: Excellent. I'm going to use that one.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?SD: It's not a fancy one. It’s John Denver,
(28:54):
‘Take Me Home, Country Roads’.OF: Oh the classic.
Yeah, classic, easy to sing. But also a lot of meaning. In the first years in
China, it was a song that was referring to homein France. And over the years, home is now here.
OF (29:14):
Right. And finally, what other China-related sources of information do you use?
SD (29:19):
Ah funnily enough, I read the China Daily. I like to read that newspaper, not so much for
their impartial view, but I like to read it tosee, a little bit, the narrative. To grasp a
glimpse of where the country is going, what isthe official thinking of it, and I do - what
(29:44):
not so many people do now - I cross-reference.OF: Right, right. I agree with you. Nowadays,
unless you're reading five different sources, thenactually you don't really know the full picture.
Exactly. OF
so much Sebastien. That was amazing.SD: Thank you for having me, Oscar,
it was a real pleasure to be here.OF: Well, before you go, the last question
(30:06):
I ask you is, out of everyone you know in Chinawho would you recommend that I interview next?
I would like to recommend Marina. Marina is actually working in The Inclusion Factory in 太仓
[Tàicāng]. She’s a social worker and socialprogramme manager, she's helping people with
(30:27):
disabilities, creating a friendly environmentfor them to include themselves into the society,
make a difference. And also helpingcompanies like SAP, or like others,
to be more inclusive, and create an adaptableand welcoming workplace. So she's the one.
OF (30:44):
Amazing, I look forward to meeting with her. And thank you so much for your time,
you know, it was a real pleasure.SD: Thank you very much, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: I made this point in
the recording itself, but what impresses me aboutSebastien the most is the way in which he puts
himself out there as an ally for Diversity andInclusion, not just because of any self interest,
(31:08):
not because he feels pressured, not becausehe feels guilt-tripped, but simply because
it makes sense. So hats off again to Sebastien,I hope even the most hard-nosed leaders of the
corporate world can agree on the business case forDiversity and Inclusion, even if on nothing else.
Let me also make a quick extra point on theairlines in China that Sebastien mentioned. So,
(31:29):
domestic flights, in particular, can definitely bea nightmare when it comes to delays. And it could
be for the same old reasons as anywhere else,especially with bad weather, or with the strain
on air traffic control, things like that. Butthe part which makes it especially bad in China,
is that a very large percentage of airspace hereis reserved for the military. Some estimates
(31:51):
online put it at about 70%, some even higherat closer to around 80%. And that leaves very
limited airspace for commercial airlines.So the airspace can be arbitrarily closed,
and it's truly no one at the airline's fault.I posted a couple of images about this,
including a funny photo that someone took at anairport in China. I won't spoil the punchline,
(32:13):
but it's the kind of thing you wouldfind funny to maybe look at it now,
but you wouldn't find it so funny if you werelooking at it while delayed at the airport.
Let me race through the rest. All of these photoscan be found on social media, just search for
@mosaicofchina_ on Instagram or @mosaicofchinaon Facebook, or connect with me on WeChat using
my ID (32:30):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group there. You will see Sebastien's object;
you'll see his favourite WeChat sticker, that’sthe laughing grandma, I’m pretty sure that's a
Russian laughing Grandma, but you be the judge;you will see a photo of Steve from the time he
was on the panel discussion about Autism atWork; you’ll see Sebastien's favourite phrase
(32:53):
in Chinese, that's 听不懂 [tīng bù dǒng], which is‘I don't understand.’ Actually interestingly,
that is only used if you don't understand whatyou're hearing. That's what the 听 [tīng] part
means. If you can't understand something whichyou're seeing or reading, the phrase is 看不懂 [kàn
bù dǒng]. There is the bike cemetery; there is theBella Vita restaurant; there is the vacuum robot,
(33:14):
which incidentally is the same answer thatEric from Episode 03 gave to the question
about purchases in China, except for Eric, itwas his worst purchase. And then there are photos
of 九寨沟 [Jiǔzhàigōu], the place in Sichuan whichSebastien says is his favourite place to visit
in China. He went there a few years ago and therehas been a big earthquake in Sichuan since then,
(33:35):
and I'm not sure exactly how things lookthere now, or even if it's totally opened up
to tourists at all. So if you're listeningand you know, then please get in touch.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs; editingby Milo de Prieto; artwork by Denny Newell;
and China technical support from AlstonGong. Let me just say a quick thank you
to Milo who has helped to create the sound ofthis podcast. He has also been teaching me how
(33:58):
to use the editing software myself. And I hada mini crash course from Sarah Boorboor of the
Unravel Podcast too, thank you Sarah. And I'mvery proud to say that at the end of all that,
the majority of today's episode was hand-editedby me. Milo will continue to be offering editing
support, I'm still a long way off from beingable to do one of these all on my own. But look,
(34:18):
I hope you didn't notice too many mistakesthis week, and I will see you again next time.
[Trailer]SD: It's so helpful.
(00:03):
We don't have an 阿姨 [āyí], so… It does alot of work for us, you know, in our big
apartment. And it's just working, it’s reallynice, it’s cleaning the house every day.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So if you're listening in real time, welcomeback from the week off since the last episode
(00:27):
with Lori. And if you're a new listener, he hasa quick recap on how each interview works. The
first part of each recording is a straightforwardtwo-way conversation, which starts with the guest
introducing an object that in some way describestheir life in China. In the second part, I asked
every guest the same 10 China-related questions,all on the theme of their personal experiences and
(00:51):
opinions. And then in the third part, I ask theguest just one final question, which is simply
“Out of everyone you know in China, whom should Iinterview for the next season of Mosaic of China?”
So at the end of every episode, you'll get aglimpse into what the line-up looks like for next
year. And you can see how, tile by tile, thesestories will connect up to form a Mosaic of China.
(01:12):
So in today's episode, I talk withSebastien Denes, who I first met
through my friend Curtis Baker many months ago.Thank you, Curtis. When I first met Sebastien,
the thought did go through my mind, you know“Here's a nice guy, but what is it about him
that made Curtis introduce him to me in thefirst place?” And then as we kept talking,
it slowly became more and more clear. Andbecause this made the impact of what he
(01:35):
ended up saying so much stronger, I thoughtI would try to put you in that same situation
today. So without any further introduction,here is my conversation with Sebastien.
[Part 1]OF: So thank you very much, Sebastien.
SD (01:48):
Thank you, Oscar, for having me here. OF
Sebastien is the VP of Digital Business Serviceand the Head of the CoE for Greater China at SAP.
Yeah, that's what I do. OF
I've been in China for seven years, starting the eighth one now. Yeah, so it feels so long,
(02:09):
and on the other side it feels like yesterday,OF: Right. And before I ask you any
other question, tell me what is theobject that you have brought today?
So I brought you a picture frame that was actually offered to me by my spouse,
my wife. And the picture that is inside is apicture of me finishing my first marathon. That
(02:35):
was back last year in 2018. But it's not thepicture that is important. It's what it says,
and who offered it to me, right. “You BecomeWhat You Believe”. And I think we're gonna
talk a lot about that during our talk today.OF: This was in Shanghai, was it, this marathon?
Ah no it was in Singapore. OF
(02:57):
I can see it now, The StanChart SingaporeMarathon, yes. I've actually run that one,
but I ran the half marathon.So you did better than me.
It's hot. OF
five in the morning, right?SD: Yeah, 4:30. It's just
like… eugh. I have mixed memories.OF: And it does represent a
(03:18):
transformation of some kind, doesn't it?SD: It does. I have - back in the beginning
of 2018 - I've been overweight fora very long time. And you know,
you do not necessarily take the actions,you let it go. And it looks, sometimes,
more difficult than it is, right? And in manyoccasions, it's just taking the first steps.
(03:42):
So back in, I would say February/March2018, I decided to take the first step,
which was going to see a nutritionist, get help,start moving a little bit, and get healthier.
Probably also get nicer, a better person.OF: And so, this story started a little bit
(04:05):
earlier for you, didn't it. Talk us through abouthow this has been part of that transformation?
Well, I would say back in 2016, we had to restructure the company, which was for me the
first time as a professional to be leading thisrestructuring, and making decisions that were
going to impact people lives, that were alsoshaping the organisation. And it was a little
(04:33):
bit like the end of innocence, if you wish…SD: Yeah. I knew it was not a game at the time,
right. But I would say that's where it becomesreally serious, that you understand that your
actions have consequences. It has also taughtme to actually trust the people, bring a team
(04:59):
around yourself. And that also entails having adiverse team, bringing different gender different
attitude, different culture into the team, sothat you improve the overall business decisions,
and the outcome at the end of the day. And one ofthe initiatives that we started was - globally,
(05:21):
actually - was Autism at Work. And Autism atWork is… take high potentials that are within
the autism spectrum, that have extremely preciousskills for us in terms of engineering skills, and
bring them to the workplace. Not only bring themto the workplace, but also adapt the workplace
to them, so that they can perform, and so thatthey can give the best value to the company,
(05:47):
and make our software better at the end of theday, right. But we brought Steve. So, back in
2017 - end of 2017 - he joined the company. Sowe adapted the selection process so that they
can shine, right, and that you can detect theskills. And then Steve had many opportunities
to choose within the company. And he chose us,because we we tried to make a place for him,
(06:12):
we assigned to him a buddy that is still… she'sstill with him today, working alongside him.
We've been also working a lot on adjusting thework/life balance, because this is also very
important for the individuals on the spectrum,to adapt their life. And also include the parents
within the conversation, without having themdriving the conversation. So it's a… sometimes,
(06:38):
a challenging equilibrium to manage. But sincethen, I think we started some kind of a movement,
because we hired another colleague within thespectrum, Tao. So Tao joined the company in
2018. And we have also another colleague calledBill, who has joined another department of the
(06:59):
company. So that's what I'm actually especiallyhappy about, is that we see other managers and
other leaders stepping in and understanding thatyou can get a lot, lot, lot of value, not only
from intrinsic skills that those individualsare bringing, but also by providing a different
(07:21):
culture and changing the culture in the company,making people more empathetic. Making people, you
know, more conscious of the differences out there.OF: And when you hired Steve, like, how many other
examples of hiring people on the autisticspectrum had there been in China beforehand?
Zero. OF
(07:43):
Zero. So we were the first company to do that in China. Generally speaking,
what we have observed for disabled people in Chinais that, because of the tax relief, companies are
actually hiring people in with disabilities, butthey are not using them, they're not actually
making them work. And more than anything, itwas more reserved to manual work, rather than
(08:10):
intellectual work. Because Steve is an engineer.So he works with customers, with other employees
on solving very complex problems that areactually impacting the business of our customers
if they are not solved. So he is an integrant,very important part of our system here in China.
OF (08:28):
And I guess without talking about Steve individually, but just in general, what are
the advantages and what are the challenges?SD: So the struggle is to first of all, not
forget that you're not doing a favour to anyoneby employing Steve - or Tao, for that matter - and
that they have expectations. So if you change thework - if the work that you give to them is not
(08:54):
up to what they think is their level of skills- they’re going to tell you. And they have this
high capacity to process things. So what you maythink is adapted for a - I don't like ‘normal’,
but - more ‘standard’ employee, let's put it thatway, is probably not. You have to give them more
(09:14):
work. Because they can process more. On the otherside, sometimes it is challenging to manage, also,
the parents,. Because they are very present. Andwe're blessed that they're around us to support
us, and help us. But on the other side, sometimesyou have to draw a line, where the company takes
a decision, and that has to be that decision,and the employee also has to live with this
(09:37):
decision sometimes, right? I'm thinking about forexample, when a manager changes. I have a mentee
in the Czech Republic, his manager, who actuallyhired him, changed. And he’s now feeling a little
bit unsettled with the new manager, who hasn'tchosen him. So rebuilding this relationship - not
(10:01):
based on choice, but based on a matter-of-factsituation that is coming to you - it's sometimes
difficult and unsettling. So you have to dealwith this. With the individuals, but also with
the managers. They have, also, to understandthat certain situations have to be avoided.
And that if they pay sufficient attention, andif they invest sufficient amount of time, the
(10:26):
value that they're going to get back is immenselyhigher than the investment they're going to make.
And when you talk about how, you know, these people do change - in terms of how
you manage them, and they change theenvironment that they come into - like,
how have you personally perceived that?SD: Well you, for sure, become way more
(10:49):
empathetic. You base your decision on differentcriteria, right. Not only on the pure, immediate
outcome that you can get, but way more on thelong=term, soft impact. How do you measure the
impact of a positive culture? Very difficult tomeasure. Nevertheless, I'm completely convinced
(11:11):
that it's producing an incredible outcome. Howdo you measure happy people? How do you measure
people that are more capable of understandingsomeone else? And how does that impact our
employees, and their relation with our customers?So this is, on one side the very interesting part,
(11:32):
and on the other side the very difficult part.OF: What about on a personal level? So if we
talk about, you know, inclusion at SAP,what about you personally? How would
you describe what your management stylewas before, compared to where it is now?
SD (11:47):
Well, I would say, I'm more of an ‘alpha’ leader, right. I like things clear, I like thing
going forward, I tend sometimes to be impatient,result-driven and so on. And sometimes you just
forget that there are different people in theroom. There has been a turnaround point for me,
(12:13):
which was… We brought Steve and Tomas - Tomasis from the Czech Republic - to an Autism at
Work conference in Nanning, in the south ofChina. And we had this crazy idea to do a
panel discussion - in Chinese and in frontof a fairly large audience - for two young
(12:37):
individuals within the spectrum, just to showthat autism is a condition, it’s not a fate.
And during this discussion - it was obviouslyvery interesting to see their points of view,
and their experiences - I stopped while I wason stage, and saw Steve’s mother, looking at her
(13:00):
son. And you know… those eyes that transmitpride and genuine love. So that was for me,
back in 2018, my bonus. That was my full yearbonus. Because this was such an accomplishment,
to see a mother proud of her child, which -probably she had a lot of challenges to bring up,
(13:26):
not very much supported by the system, a lot ofquestioning - and to see him, there, succeed,
you could feel that sentiment within her.And for me, it was also the realisation of
what can be the impact of what we do. Or whatwe don't. But if we do, we can have an impact
(13:53):
that changes lives, that really has an impactthat is long-lasting, and that probably will
help parents taking the decision to bring theirkids to university. Because there is a hope,
because there are companies out there thatare willing to take that jump. And that's
very rewarding, from a personal perspective.OF: Yeah, it makes me think that there aren't
(14:21):
that many people who you see on the streetwith disabilities here in Shanghai. I'm just
trying to think if that's just me in termsof… am I not looking in all the different
areas? Or is that is that a thing, like…SD: OK, so just bringing in the numbers,
we’re talking 85 million people with disabilitiesin China. 80% of them are unemployed. And if they
(14:45):
are employed, they're sometimes not even inthe factories, in the companies, because they
are kept at home. And you don't see them becausethey're hidden. That's my interpretation, right,
we probably would need to cross-check it withspecialists of the country. I think there is
a little bit of a shame. To block them out. Theenvironment and the culture and the society is
(15:08):
not so inclusive with them. So that can beseen on one side as a very big problem. And
it is. But on the other side, it's a fantasticup-side, because you have 85 million people that
are overlooked, that are not considered.And that, for companies, is an 85 million
(15:31):
people pool of talent that we can look into.OF: Yeah, it reminds me of my own life as a
headhunter where we only had about 120 employees,but 10% of them were people with disabilities.
And it was just like you said, we didn't hirethem as a charity. These were people who had the
(15:52):
best skills actually, for what we wanted them,which was doing a lot of the market research,
doing a lot of the analytics with the data. Andit's something where, yeah, you do realise “Oh,
wow, you know, these are people who arebeing overlooked by other employees. But
that's their problem. And actually, weare getting a big advantage out of it”.
Exactly. That's a that's an edge, actually. OF
(16:17):
are you measuring the impact? And of course, thereare tangible impacts and intangible ones. So I'm
curious to know how you would work on those?SD: Well, first of all, I like to talk about
metrics, not about quotas. We don't have quotas,for nothing, at SAP. And I wouldn't like to work
for quotas. But I like to measure. We want to haveup to, I think, 1% or 2% of our of our employees
(16:46):
with disabilities, within the autism spectrum.But we measure, a lot, employee satisfaction. How
they consider the leadership, the cultureof the company. We have a yearly survey,
and we're going to move from a yearly survey toa more continuous assessment of those numbers.
(17:08):
And I think for me, as I said, it's not aboutquotas, but it's about telling yourself the truth,
right. And sometimes the narrative supports thetruth. Sometimes it does not, right. If you look
at the narrative right now it’s, the workplace isway more inclusive. And you would tend to believe
(17:28):
that, in China, the workplace is more inclusivefor women. The reality is, in the last five years,
China has lost 40 places in the global rankingfor women in the workplace, moving from the 60th
place to the 100th place, right. So that'swhy metrics and measurement are interesting,
(17:51):
because it gives you valuable information. It’snot everything, as I said earlier. You have to
measure culture and positiveness and empathy,which are more difficult to measure. But I think
if you go through a combination of both - hardmeasurement and soft measurement - you get a
(18:12):
pretty decent picture of where you are right now.OF: And what about other managers in your
situation? Because what strikes me fromyour story is that you are, you know,
you're someone who outwardly I would say“OK you've described yourself as an alpha,
you're a privileged white European guy in China.And yet, you've come to this conclusion about
(18:33):
inclusivity”. Where, you know, normally thepeople who talk about inclusivity are women,
are people who are LGBT, or people who have avested interest. So that's why I'm impressed
with your story, having come from your background.SD: Well I like to think of privilege coming with,
also, duties. And for me, it's importantto - and we try to teach this to our kids
(18:59):
as well - to realise that out of the 6 billionpeople in this world, we are very fortunate. We
have a key to almost every country in the world.With my passport, I can enter 160 countries,
no question asked. Is this the case for 90% of thepopulation of the world? No. And it doesn't mean
(19:23):
you don't work hard, it doesn't mean you don'ttake whatever it takes to to make it happen on
your side. But it would be a little bit foolish toconsider this as a fair game, right? Life is not
a fair game. And you can take those privileges,and close your eyes, and go forward. Or you can
(19:44):
say “Well, I'm gonna open doors. I'm going tomake a difference. I'm going to make an impact”.
And sometimes it's just opening the door, sothat someone can just enter a room and shine.
And for me, it’s not about bringing people thatdon't belong, right? It's exactly the contrary,
(20:06):
it’s bringing people that belong, but for themthe door is closed. And also, it's good for
business. It provides an incredible additionaloutcome. So, if you combine this privilege,
plus this duty - towards P&L, towards successwith the company, bringing us back to 2016,
(20:31):
when it was hard - then you do whatever it takesto make it happen. And Diversity and Inclusion is
part of the equation. More diverse companies aremore successful than less diverse companies, just
because if you don't include different opinionsin your decision process - that are coming from
(20:56):
different backgrounds, different ages, differentsex, different sexual orientation, religion,
you name it - you’re gonna miss part of the story.And you're not serving only one kind of people.
You're serving a very diverse world, right?OF: Yeah.
For me, right now, I came to realise that we are actually at the crossroad,
(21:21):
in that you have to choose your path, right? Andif you choose the path of Diversity and Inclusion,
you can change people's lives. Not for today,but for the generations to come. Think about
people who have a child that is within the autismspectrum. They ask themselves “Should I educate
(21:49):
him? Why should I make him go through all thechallenges, all the difficulties, if there is
no prize at the end of the day? At the end ofthe road, if there is no employment, if there
is no place for them?” And I'm not talking aboutonly autism, you can think about blind people,
about other types of disabilities, if you adaptcompanies to them, you're bringing a whole set
(22:13):
of opportunities to this community of people,right. And that's what I'm thinking about when I
talk about long-lasting impact. It's not only forSteve, for Tao, their fate is almost fixed today,
unfortunately. It’s for the generation to come.OF: Very good. Well, thank you very much for
(22:37):
that. Sebastien, I look forward to hearing whathappens in the future with your project. Well,
I should say ‘many projects’. But inthe meantime, let's move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: And Question 1,
what is your favourite China-related fact?SD: It's a very simple one, it’s 1.4 billion
(23:01):
people. I love this number, because it givesyou first of all a very accurate sizing of the
country. It's also, for companies, I believe- especially Western companies - some kind
of mirage. The illusion of capturing this1.4-billion-people market, right. Having
(23:22):
spent seven years here in China, I've seen so manycompanies with that in mind, coming here to think
they’re gonna conquer this market. I think inChina, you have to make a lot of adaptations to
make a difference, here in China.OF: Do you have a favourite
(23:42):
word or phrase in Chinese?SD: Oh, 听不懂 [tīng bù dǒng]. I love this one,
because I always tend to think that if you say“I don't understand” - for example in France,
my home country, or I don't know, maybe inEngland - people look at you and say “Ah,
another one that comes, and he doesn't understandthe language”. And here, it's a completely
(24:06):
different attitude. They laugh with you. Andsometimes they keep on talking Chinese, and you're
just like “听不懂 [tīng bù dǒng]” again, right? Or,many times they make the effort to make themselves
understood, right. So I like this contradiction ofa word that you speak in Chinese, saying “I don't
(24:27):
get it”, and the doors that this opens.OF: Nice. What's your favourite
destination within China?SD: My favourite destination would
be 九寨沟 [Jiǔzhàigōu], which is in Sichuan.It's a wonderful Alpine-style valley,
with beautiful lakes, and it's very closeto Tibet. I remember it, when we visited
(24:54):
five years ago, because it was the unexpected.OF: If you left China, what would you miss the
most, and what would you miss the least?SD: I will miss the most, the people.
The people I've worked with, the team. Becauseover those seven years, you've seen them grow,
build their families, have children, struggle atwork, grow as a person, as a professional. And
(25:22):
this probably is the part I would miss the most.OF: Anything you wouldn't miss?
The airlines. OF
Ah they’re always late. It's very stressful. I love the train. I think the train system in
China is wonderful. But the airlines, and the factthat there’s always a delay, and that you have to
(25:43):
wait for hours, It's just, like, very stressful.OF: That's someone who's done a lot of business
travel, I can see in your face.SD: Yes.
OF (25:50):
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
SD (25:54):
Every week, almost every day, there is something that makes you say “Oh, I didn't
think this would be possible”. Right? One of thelatest ones was, I was running around the city,
in 浦东 [Pǔdōng], and I actually found a bikecemetery. You know those sharing bikes,
(26:17):
they go somewhere to die. And this place is like,five football fields. It's the other side of the
sharing economy, it’s "What do you do with this?”It also for me, depicts how innovation goes in
China, which is “Let’s do it, go forward with it,then start to regulate, and then eventually fix
(26:41):
the issues that are going to happen”. Whereas inEurope or in Western countries, it's a little bit
“Oh let’s not do it, because we have this andthis and that and that reason”, right? So it's
more finding a reason not to do it; here in China,it’s more going forward. This is why I think the
country goes also very fast in that area.OF: I've only seen pictures of those bike
(27:02):
graveyards. I'm surprised that you actuallywere able to find one here in Shanghai.
I can bring you there. OF
we’ll go there. What is your favourite placeto go out, to eat or drink, or just hang out?
Alright, so it's gonna sound odd. It’s a restaurant in the Florentia Village. So,
(27:24):
Florentia Village is an outlet closeto the airport. So that's not so fancy,
nor glamourous, let's put it that way. Butthey have a very good restaurant, a very
good Italian restaurant called ‘BellaVita’. We know the chef, Stefano,
personally. And it's a little bit like every week,every Sunday, we go back to Italy. Nothing fancy,
(27:47):
nothing ‘fusion’, just traditional Italiancuisine, where you can find a little bit of
home and, you know, spend good family time.OF: And that's because your wife is Italian,
right?SD: Yeah.
OF (28:01):
If an Italian likes it, then it must be good. What is the best or
worst purchase you've made in China?SD: The best purchase is, actually,
a Xiaomi vacuum robot. It's so helpful.We don't have an 阿姨 [āyí], so… It does a
lot of work for us, you know, in our bigapartment. And it's just working, it’s
(28:24):
really nice, it’s cleaning the house every day.OF: Amazing. What's your favourite WeChat sticker?
SD (28:30):
It’s a pretty stupid one. It’s just an old lady who is just laughing out. I think sometimes
we are too serious. And it's just about laughing.OF: Excellent. I'm going to use that one.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?SD: It's not a fancy one. It’s John Denver,
(28:54):
‘Take Me Home, Country Roads’.OF: Oh the classic.
Yeah, classic, easy to sing. But also a lot of meaning. In the first years in
China, it was a song that was referring to homein France. And over the years, home is now here.
OF (29:14):
Right. And finally, what other China-related sources of information do you use?
SD (29:19):
Ah funnily enough, I read the China Daily. I like to read that newspaper, not so much for
their impartial view, but I like to read it tosee, a little bit, the narrative. To grasp a
glimpse of where the country is going, what isthe official thinking of it, and I do - what
(29:44):
not so many people do now - I cross-reference.OF: Right, right. I agree with you. Nowadays,
unless you're reading five different sources, thenactually you don't really know the full picture.
Exactly. OF
so much Sebastien. That was amazing.SD: Thank you for having me, Oscar,
it was a real pleasure to be here.OF: Well, before you go, the last question
(30:06):
I ask you is, out of everyone you know in Chinawho would you recommend that I interview next?
I would like to recommend Marina. Marina is actually working in The Inclusion Factory in 太仓
[Tàicāng]. She’s a social worker and socialprogramme manager, she's helping people with
(30:27):
disabilities, creating a friendly environmentfor them to include themselves into the society,
make a difference. And also helpingcompanies like SAP, or like others,
to be more inclusive, and create an adaptableand welcoming workplace. So she's the one.
OF (30:44):
Amazing, I look forward to meeting with her. And thank you so much for your time,
you know, it was a real pleasure.SD: Thank you very much, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: I made this point in
the recording itself, but what impresses me aboutSebastien the most is the way in which he puts
himself out there as an ally for Diversity andInclusion, not just because of any self interest,
(31:08):
not because he feels pressured, not becausehe feels guilt-tripped, but simply because
it makes sense. So hats off again to Sebastien,I hope even the most hard-nosed leaders of the
corporate world can agree on the business case forDiversity and Inclusion, even if on nothing else.
Let me also make a quick extra point on theairlines in China that Sebastien mentioned. So,
(31:29):
domestic flights, in particular, can definitely bea nightmare when it comes to delays. And it could
be for the same old reasons as anywhere else,especially with bad weather, or with the strain
on air traffic control, things like that. Butthe part which makes it especially bad in China,
is that a very large percentage of airspace hereis reserved for the military. Some estimates
(31:51):
online put it at about 70%, some even higherat closer to around 80%. And that leaves very
limited airspace for commercial airlines.So the airspace can be arbitrarily closed,
and it's truly no one at the airline's fault.I posted a couple of images about this,
including a funny photo that someone took at anairport in China. I won't spoil the punchline,
(32:13):
but it's the kind of thing you wouldfind funny to maybe look at it now,
but you wouldn't find it so funny if you werelooking at it while delayed at the airport.
Let me race through the rest. All of these photoscan be found on social media, just search for
@mosaicofchina_ on Instagram or @mosaicofchinaon Facebook, or connect with me on WeChat using
my ID (32:30):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group there. You will see Sebastien's object;
you'll see his favourite WeChat sticker, that’sthe laughing grandma, I’m pretty sure that's a
Russian laughing Grandma, but you be the judge;you will see a photo of Steve from the time he
was on the panel discussion about Autism atWork; you’ll see Sebastien's favourite phrase
(32:53):
in Chinese, that's 听不懂 [tīng bù dǒng], which is‘I don't understand.’ Actually interestingly,
that is only used if you don't understand whatyou're hearing. That's what the 听 [tīng] part
means. If you can't understand something whichyou're seeing or reading, the phrase is 看不懂 [kàn
bù dǒng]. There is the bike cemetery; there is theBella Vita restaurant; there is the vacuum robot,
(33:14):
which incidentally is the same answer thatEric from Episode 03 gave to the question
about purchases in China, except for Eric, itwas his worst purchase. And then there are photos
of 九寨沟 [Jiǔzhàigōu], the place in Sichuan whichSebastien says is his favourite place to visit
in China. He went there a few years ago and therehas been a big earthquake in Sichuan since then,
(33:35):
and I'm not sure exactly how things lookthere now, or even if it's totally opened up
to tourists at all. So if you're listeningand you know, then please get in touch.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs; editingby Milo de Prieto; artwork by Denny Newell;
and China technical support from AlstonGong. Let me just say a quick thank you
to Milo who has helped to create the sound ofthis podcast. He has also been teaching me how
(33:58):
to use the editing software myself. And I hada mini crash course from Sarah Boorboor of the
Unravel Podcast too, thank you Sarah. And I'mvery proud to say that at the end of all that,
the majority of today's episode was hand-editedby me. Milo will continue to be offering editing
support, I'm still a long way off from beingable to do one of these all on my own. But look,
(34:18):
I hope you didn't notice too many mistakesthis week, and I will see you again next time.
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